=== wasabi__ [i=wasabi@conference/ubuntuconf/x-12c062a24fe305ce] has joined #upstart === Amaranth [i=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #upstart === Amaranth_ [i=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #upstart === Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth === wasabi__ [i=wasabi@conference/ubuntuconf/x-17961a374514710a] has joined #upstart === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D9CF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart === wasabi_ [i=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #upstart === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #upstart === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D9CF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart === johnnybuoy [n=johnny@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #upstart === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D9CF2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart === juergbi [n=juerg@80-219-26-249.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #upstart === mbiebl [n=michael@e180100054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #upstart === hunger [n=tobias@pd95b0676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart === nibil [n=nibil@adsl-static-3-105.uklinux.net] has joined #upstart === johnnybuoy [n=johnny@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #upstart === crazy [n=crazy@frugalware/developer/crazy] has joined #upstart === jams [n=jams@CPE-72-131-6-174.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #upstart === Artanicus [i=kuitunej@lehtori.cc.tut.fi] has joined #upstart === jiger [n=jiger@59.182.9.217] has joined #upstart [02:57] hello how can I check if I am booting via upstart or no? [02:57] jiger: check /proc/1/exe ? [02:58] there is no /proc/1/exe [02:59] top shows 1 as init [02:59] then you're not using linux... perhaps you don't have permission to read it, i seem to only be able to read it if i am root [03:00] ohhh wait only works with sudo. hmmmm but ls shows nothing [03:00] wonder why booting kubuntu takes so long [03:01] cortana: and why is process 1 init? [03:02] well it's a symlink to a processes' executable file [03:02] it guess it depends how you have upstart installed [03:02] maybe it has replaced the /sbin/init file [03:04] cortana: but isn't upstart executable called upstart? [03:05] depends how you have it installed [03:05] cortana: any definitive way to check> [03:05] i don't even have it installed here :) [03:05] ask your package manager what owns the file? [03:05] cortana: I did a dapper to edgy [03:05] cortana: u ain't running ubuntu? [03:05] cortana: command? [03:06] dpkg --search i think [03:07] upstart-compat-sysv: /usr/share/doc/upstart-compat-sysv [03:07] system-services: /usr/lib/upstart/migrate-inittab.pl [03:07] upstart-logd: /usr/share/doc/upstart-logd [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/copyright [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/changelog.gz [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/NEWS.gz [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/AUTHORS [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/changelog.Debian.gz [03:07] system-services: /usr/lib/upstart [03:07] upstart: /usr/share/doc/upstart/README.Debian.gz [03:07] strikes anything? [03:08] it's dpkg --search /sbin/init [03:08] to find out what package owns /sbin/init [03:09] upstart: /sbin/init [03:09] good? ontrack? [03:09] then it seems you are using upstart [03:09] cortana: then wonder why it is so slow to boot [03:10] afaik upstart doesn't make anything aster [03:10] *faster [03:10] cortana: slightly slower than dapper [03:10] but i can't really say since i don't use it [03:10] cortana: doesn't it load possible services in parellel ? [03:10] cortana: might not be immen. but in future aim? [03:11] maybe, but if those services are both competing for the same resource then they won't load any quicker [03:11] cortana: hmmm hope next ubuntu makes it fast. [03:11] cortana: thanks for the help === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #upstart === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D8B9B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart === mbiebl [n=michael@e180100054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #upstart === Keybuk [i=scott@conference/ubuntuconf/x-da1473c0092f5458] has joined #upstart === Seveas [i=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #upstart === madduck [n=madduck@debian/developer/madduck] has joined #upstart [06:27] Keybuk: http://www.metager2.de/ -- Michael Biebl is now the maintainer for Debian and I suggest you link to http://packages.debian.org/upstart instead as the package won't be experimental forever. [06:27] thanks [06:27] oops [06:27] http://upstart.ubuntu.com/ [06:27] i mean. [06:27] you can keep me in if youw ant, i am comaintainer... [06:27] (though i have not done much) === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D8B9B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart [06:28] *nods* [06:30] Keybuk: you busy atm with uds-mtv or can I ask a quick question? [06:32] oh, nvm, just got some of your emails on the mailing list - my mail server is a bit laggy today [06:38] AlexExtreme: you can always ask questions :) [06:38] I just may not reply instantly [06:38] ok :) [06:39] what was your question? [06:39] well, just a quick (and stupid - /me points at crazy (another frugalware devel) ;)) question - will hal ever be needed by upstart? [06:40] I suspect HAL will become an important source of events [06:40] as unlike udev, it has policy [06:40] udev can give you a "a block device has been added" [06:40] but not actually *required*, meaning you could run upstart without it? [06:40] HAL can give you "a block device ON A DIGITAL CAMERA has been added" [06:40] right [06:41] good [06:41] very little of upstart will be required [06:41] just the /sbin/init daemon and some IPC mechanism to send events to it [06:41] other than that, everything else will be optional [06:41] k [06:41] crazy: there, got your question answered [06:41] :) [06:41] hmm? [06:42] crazy wanted me to ask that [06:42] ahh [06:43] on the dbus thing [06:43] I'm still debating the custom IPC vs. dbus thing === Amaranth [i=travis@conference/ubuntuconf/x-4bb817e31f929252] has joined #upstart [06:44] ok [06:44] bbl, food [06:44] Keybuk: did you advise Md to reassign the udev problem in Debian to upstart-compat-sysv? [06:45] mbiebl: yes [06:45] both the problems are definitely upstart [06:45] in Debian, I'd argue that you need "console owner" in the compat-sysv jobs; simply because Debian doesn't have a "no boot messages" policy, so init scripts are well within their rights to expect stdin=/dev/console [06:46] also there's definitely a bug that the rcS job doesn't set RUNLEVEL or PREVLEVEL (note that rc-everything-else does :p) [06:46] Sure, we don't have that policy, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to have everything logged to file instead to stdout [06:46] right, but it's also inherently not a udev bug [06:46] you're well within your rights to reject it [06:46] ;-) [06:47] The problem with console owner is, that it makes logd pretty useless. [06:47] right [06:48] needs improvement [06:48] Yes, I pointed that out on upstart-devel. /var/log/boot contains nothing then [06:48] maybe I should try improving it for something to do? ;) [06:48] anyway, gotta go [06:48] Keybuk: you know, I want to give the user the choice, if they want verbose output or not. [06:48] mbiebl: *nods* [06:48] So imho udev needs this "fix" [06:49] md is well within his rights to refuse the fix [06:49] Well, I guess I'll just ask Md to add " -o $TTY /dev/null" to his am_i_interactive check. [06:49] *nods* [06:49] that may be a good compromise [06:49] talk to him about it [06:50] Marco responds very well to conversation through medium other than the BTS [06:50] hehe [06:51] What about cryptsetup, how do solve that in ubuntu? [06:51] exec <1>2 /dev/console ? [06:56] I mean: exec /dev/console 2>&1? [06:56] Seems a bit "hackish" to add that to a dozen of init scripts. [06:57] Wouldn't it be better to have something like input/output functions, which forward the request to upstart instead of doing the input/output itself. [06:58] Would something like that be possible. [06:59] <_ion> They should support a splash program as well. [06:59] _ion: yes, it wouldn't matter how this information is presented. [06:59] <_ion> I don't think upstart needs to know about them, though. [07:08] Keybuk: what are your top priorities for upstart in the near future? [07:09] I wanted to "convert" existing init scripts and noticed that "pid file" and "multiple events" support are needed for a lot of services. [07:11] I hacked together some kind of pid file support, which works most of the time. [07:12] But it's rather hard to do that right. === Seveas [i=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #upstart [07:27] ugh, i thought one of the advantages of upstart is to do away with pidfiles? [07:32] cortana: there are still services which don't deal well with being started in foreground. [07:32] They have to be tracked somehow. Most of them write pid files. [07:32] <_ion> Use the "daemon" stanza [07:35] _ion: this only works, if the "daemon" does not fork and detach. === johnnybuoy [n=johnny@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #upstart [07:36] <_ion> /* daemon (WS )? [07:36] <_ion> * indicates that the process forks into the background [07:36] <_ion> * so we need to grovel for its process id [07:38] _ion: try it, you'll see that it doesn't work for daemon's which fork [07:38] <_ion> Then it has a bug, which should be fixed. [07:39] Is it even possible for upstart to determine the pid of the forked process? [07:39] I dunno. [07:42] How should it be done? By traversing /proc checking for a process with the same name as the binary specified in the upstart job file? [07:43] Wouldn't work reliably imo. [07:44] yeah, i mean, what if the daemon changes the process title or forks itself into multiple processes [07:45] AlexExtreme: exactly. [07:46] <_ion> keybuk: Could you share your insight on the issue? [07:50] <_ion> IIRC it has something to do with pid 1 getting SIGCHLD for parentless processes. [07:54] _ion: hm, ok. but take hald e.g. which spawns several sub processes. [07:54] How do you know, which one is the controlling daemon. [07:55] <_ion> I haven't studied how upstart handles or is supposed to handle that. [07:55] <_ion> Let's wait for Keybuk's answer. :-) [08:12] mbiebl: input/output functions are the expected way to do it [08:12] then we can provide implementations that deal with console, usplash, text-to-speech, braille, etc. [08:12] mbiebl: current list in my head is [08:12] 1. fix the IPC stuff === wasabi_ [i=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #upstart [08:12] 2. implement the events changes we've talked about [08:13] 3. multiple events, optional events [08:13] 4. event completion notification [08:13] 5. job changes we've talked about [08:13] 6. temporal jobs [08:13] 7. user jobs [08:14] and, on pid location, the idea is that you spawn the daemon [08:14] and then look for either the /proc/*/exe matching "pid binary" [08:14] or the "pid file" file which should contain the pid [08:14] we get SIGCHLD for these later [08:15] it would certainly be more consistent if upstart does the handling of pid saving [08:17] Regarding the /proc/*/exe matching: How would you handle e.g. sshd? [08:17] It spawns several sub processes for each connected user and you certainly don't want to kill the wrong pid ;-) [08:18] sladen: this is for processes that fork [08:19] mbiebl: first one [08:19] you only locate the pid once [08:19] then again, sshd would be run with -D [08:19] But what if you start multiple instances of a daemon. [08:20] (SSH on prt 24 and 22 e.g.) [08:21] <_ion> I thought you can set both in sshd_config. [08:22] you can [08:22] you might want to have different settings though [08:22] But I guess most daemons either write pid files are can be run properly in foreground. [08:22] my port 22 sshd never allows root access. [08:22] So this option is not that important. [08:22] i have an sshd allowing without-password on a port that changes often === Md [i=md@freenode/staff/md] has joined #upstart [08:24] <_ion> Btw, instances of sshd spawned for logged-in users have the initial sshd as their parent. [08:27] Md: hi [08:30] indeed, it's only the multiple-daemon-that-pid-is-1 that's a problem === darkwizzard [n=darkwizz@86.126.236.125] has joined #upstart === wasabi__ [i=wasabi@conference/ubuntuconf/x-1688f7cfca74fe9e] has joined #upstart === Amaranth [i=travis@conference/ubuntuconf/x-b85e86082cf2ecd7] has joined #upstart === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D8B9B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #upstart === Amaranth [i=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #upstart === Seveaz [i=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #upstart === Seveaz is now known as Seveas === mbiebl [n=michael@e180100054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #upstart === Amaranth [i=travis@conference/ubuntuconf/x-5c512300f2e19bf5] has joined #upstart === wasabi_ [i=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi] has joined #upstart