[12:11] <mnepton> oy jdub
[12:43] <shwag> ~/.bash_profile says "the default umask is set in /etc/login.defs" , but I changed the the UMASK setting in login.defs, and  $ umask , still says 022
[12:44] <Mithrandir> you logged in using gdm?
[12:44] <shwag> uhh...yah
[12:45] <shwag> err...i mean, no.
[12:45] <Mithrandir> have you decided?
[12:45] <shwag> no gdm
[12:45] <shwag> this is just CLI
[12:45] <Mithrandir> I generally recommend just using libpam-umask
[12:45] <Mithrandir> but I'm the author, so I might be biased.
[12:46] <shwag> What is libpam-umask?  I mostly just thought I would bring this up because Im following the erroneous instructions in  .bash_profile.
[12:47] <shwag> because I can just set umask in /etc/profile
[12:47] <cjwatson> /etc/profile won't work properly if you're logging in using gdm ...
[12:47] <infinity> You did, like, log out... Right?
[12:48] <cjwatson> doing it in PAM means it gets set right at the top of every session you create (console, gdm, ssh, whatever) if you configure it in /etc/pam.d/common-session
[12:48] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: except for the fact that gdm resets the umask and doesn't restore it.
[12:49] <cjwatson> score
[12:49] <Mithrandir> I need to poke upstream about it, I just haven't had the time yet.
[12:50] <shwag> infinity: I rebooted even.
[12:50] <shwag> cjwatson: no gdm. no x11.
[12:53] <shwag> man login.defs  says a few things, but I still dont know why it doesnt have any effect.
[12:55] <realist> what about /etc/profile or ~/.profile ?
[12:55] <shwag> what calls login ?
[12:55] <shwag> realist: I can put a umask in there, but .bash_profile says that /etc/login.defs is the proper place.
[12:58] <realist> shwag: was referring to the fact that either of those could be setting the umask back to 022
[12:58] <realist> I was also under the impression login no longer used /etc/login.defs
[01:01] <shwag> realist: You are right. Someone put a umask setting in the default /etc/profile.
[01:11] <shwag> realist: commenting out the umask setting in /etc/profile didnt have an effect, so you must be right about login.defs no longer working.
[01:12] <realist> shwag: then you'll need to decide between using profile, or pam
[01:13] <shwag> not sure what the using pam solution would look like.
[01:55] <cjwatson> shwag: libpam-umask would be the place to start, as we said earlier; it has a README explaining how to use it
[01:56] <shwag> cjwatson: more interested in getting things "proper" and submitting the bug. already filed for  bash and login  packages.
[01:56] <shwag> cjwatson: it works if I set it in /etc/profile
[02:06] <cjwatson> Keybuk: please blacklist ghc-cvs (see my earlier entry in removals.txt)
[02:06] <cjwatson> Keybuk: I'll remove it again now
[02:07] <cjwatson> Keybuk: if you close the file between edits, then I can edit it myself without having to bug you :)
[02:15] <cjwatson>   125028 | -B | gecode (i386)        | 1.3.1-1              | a minute
[02:15] <cjwatson>          | * libgecode-doc/1.3.1-1/i386 Component: universe Section: doc Priority: OPTIONAL
[02:15] <cjwatson>          | N libgecode7-dev/1.3.1-1/i386 Component: main Section: libdevel Priority: OPTIONAL
[02:15] <cjwatson>          | N libgecode8/1.3.1-1/i386 Component: main Section: libs Priority: OPTIONAL
[02:15] <cjwatson> what the ... huh?
[02:15] <cjwatson> Keybuk: ^-- please don't NEW that one without careful thought :-)
[03:17] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I saw that (gecode)
[03:18] <_ion> cge: That trevio guy visited the channel, but you (or i) weren't online. He said he sent you an email.
[03:19] <_ion> cge: Btw, there have been 114 installs so far for the wallpaper package. :-)
[03:22] <cge> _ion: Yes
[03:24] <cge> _ion: He was just asking if I wanted to talk to him here sometime. I replied pointing him to your email address, and trying to summarise the reasons why he shouldn't distribute that list.
[03:26] <Fujitsu> _ion: Nice! Is that the one that is red on black?
[03:32] <_ion> fujitsu: Yep.
[03:33] <_ion> fujitsu: The rate was about 10 installations per hour, but it slowed down now that it's nighttime in Europe.
[03:38] <cge> _ion: Amazing.
[03:38] <cge> _ion: I suppose that's what happens when more people start using Ubuntu.
[03:39] <cge> _ion: But it's going to really hurt when someone decides to put a deb up that does real damage.
[05:34] <sladen> jdub: oooh, head of Marketing today!
[05:49] <towsonu2003> hi
[09:49] <jdub> woo, edgy livecd cylon
[09:50] <Burgundavia> jdub: livecd cylon?
[09:51] <jdub> the indeterminite splash progress bar
[09:51] <Burgundavia> ah
[09:52] <TheMuso> I was pleasantly surprised to see that when I used a live CD recently.
[10:18] <pygi> siretart: poke again, sorry for bothering ^_^
[10:24] <siretart> pygi: hey there
[10:24] <pygi> siretart: multi-session is working, yay ^_^
[10:24] <siretart> pygi: w00t!
[10:24] <pygi> not completely yet, but it working ^_^
[10:25] <pygi> I really can't believe we are moving that fast...
[10:25] <siretart> pygi: out of interest, does libburn support dvd drives as well?
[10:25] <pygi> siretart: you mean dvd burning? not yet, but with this speed it'll get that support soon :P
[10:25] <siretart> :)
[10:26] <siretart> currently I'm using 2 different tools for my burning depending on the media. would be great if there was one common tool
[10:26] <pygi> well, libburn is a library ^_^
[10:26] <pygi> But you can use cdrskin which is command-line compatiblity wrapper for cdrecord
[10:27] <pygi> I could really use some help with getting the books I need for example: orange book, etc, etc
[10:27] <siretart> in fact, I'm using nautilus-cd-burner most often
[10:27] <pygi> that will be ported to libbunr ^_^
[10:27] <siretart> :)
[10:28] <pygi> libburn*
[10:28] <pygi> will upload libburn-enabled Brasero as soon as I can get my edgy to behave a bit better and sign the packages :P
[10:30] <pygi> siretart: will stop bothering now ^_^
[10:34] <ajmitch> hey siretart, pygi 
[10:34] <pygi> hey ajmitch 
[10:35] <Burgundavia> hey ajmitch
[10:36] <ajmitch> hello Burgundavia, how's it going?
[10:37] <Burgundavia> not bad
[10:37] <Burgundavia> abvout to crash
[10:37] <ajmitch> yeah, I should as well
[10:37] <ajmitch> just checking things before I turn in for the night
[10:37] <ajmitch> (like my flights tomorrow)
[10:50] <siretart> heyho ajmitch 
[11:17] <jdub> hrm
[11:17] <jdub> how's apt-proxy in edgy?
[11:18] <Fujitsu> jdub: Stuffed, as usual.
[11:19] <jdub> seriously so?
[11:19] <Fujitsu> The Debian-recommended solution seems to be `use apt-cacher'
[11:19] <jdub> hrm
[11:19] <Fujitsu> I can't remember how it's stuffed, but I remember it is...
[01:47] <jdub> whiprush: it may not be nice, but the last two weeks have been an education in community self-control and self-education. they're extremely important issues.
[01:48] <bhale> good morning jdub lovers
[01:48] <jdub> morning bhale 
[01:48] <Hobbsee> hey bhale 
[01:48] <Hobbsee> hi jdub 
[01:49] <jdub> yo Hobbsee 
[01:49] <jdub> Hobbsee: registered for linux.conf.au yet?
[01:49] <Hobbsee> jdub: nope
[01:50] <jdub> yeah, i know, i just figured i'd bug you about it ;-)
[01:50] <Hobbsee> haha
[01:50] <jdub> i was surprised no one suggested an ubuntu miniconf this year
[01:52] <engla> how can ubuntu developers be so short-sighted that they include binary drivers by default? This is so utterly nonsensical for ubuntu, the great, upcoming, innovating and ground-breaking linux distro. We can do so much better for the world
[01:53] <pygi> engla: nothing is done yet.
[01:53] <Hobbsee> engla: your ranting here at this time of day is useless.  most of them are out at the pub, or sleeping
[01:53] <engla> well I sure hope they meet resistance in the community
[01:55] <Hobbsee> engla: i'm sure they're meeting the resistance of other devs.  it's not like they dont know about it
[01:56] <engla> I know, that's good. I hope they realize how short-sighted it is. Ubuntu is not made for xgl or for gamers or anyone who has a blog anyway; it's mostly made for everyone
[01:57] <Hobbsee> jdub: so what will you do if i dont come to LCA?
[01:57] <Hobbsee> :P
[01:58] <sladen> engla: I think the idea goes something like this  (a) people /will/ install binary drivers anyway;  so lets make it ultra easy for those people  (b) lets nag them to death with a popup box/dialogue pointing out the evilness and that they should buy Intel cards instead   (c) you only have to pursuade one of either ATI or Nvidia to 'open up' and the other will be forced to follow suit
[01:59] <engla> we can do (c) anyway
[01:59] <mjg59> (d) shame suspend has just broken for all of them
[01:59] <engla> well i'm on the most prop hardware of any -- apple's; but on linux I have to use oss drivers for everything, so I do
[01:59] <sladen> engla: there will (and is already) a CD image that will /not/ install either bianry drivers or wifi card firmware;  hopefully the prominance of that will be increased
[02:00] <engla> aha
[02:01] <jdub> Hobbsee: i suppose i ponder for a short moment about opportunities wasted. then i'll get back into the action. :-)
[02:01] <Hobbsee> jdub: hehe, right
[02:09] <fdoving> will the livecd session find and use existing swap partitions? 
[02:10] <sladen> fdoving: yes, if they have been mkswaped
[02:10] <fdoving> sladen: ok, thanks :)
[02:51] <fdoving> will feisty apt (and the archives) support DiffIndexes like debian etch+ ? 
[03:48] <siretart> fdoving: I haven't seen any spec for that, so I wouldn't count on it
[03:48] <jdub> hrm
[03:48] <jdub> T42, usplash doesn't come up, and whenever 'splash' is in the grub command line, the machine takes aeons to boot
[03:49] <jdub> take splash out and it's everyday speedy
[03:49] <siretart> look in malone, there was a bug about it
[03:49] <gnomefreak> were the ttf-arphic-uming font issues and dbus issues fixed yet?(feisty)
[03:49] <jdub> siretart: oh yeah? ta
[03:49] <siretart> I've had this as well on my amd64, but it was fixed before release
[03:49] <siretart> I don't remember the details
[03:50] <jdub> #61711
[03:50] <siretart> bug #61711
[03:50] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 61711 in usplash "no boot splash and very slow booting" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/61711
[03:52] <siretart> hm. looks like its still open. 
[03:53] <jdub> wow, i had 1920x1200 in my usplash.conf
[03:53] <siretart> we have such displays for the staff personal at our uni :)
[03:53] <jdub> i'm going to reboot with that, see how it goes, then go to sleep and comment on the bug in the morning
[03:54] <jdub> night!
[03:54] <siretart> jdub: gn8
[03:54] <jdub> siretart: i think this must've happened when pia had her lappy plugged into my 24" monitor ;-)
[03:54] <siretart> jdub: I don't think that changing the display hardware should be able to break usplash
[04:16] <sladen> jdub: the usplash resolution is taken from what X autodetected
[04:18] <siretart> sladen: so it should perhaps be updated regularily like say, every boot, no?
[04:19] <Simira> sladen: not in the US yet?
[04:20] <fabbione> Simira: uds is finished
[04:21] <sladen> Simira: no, no, I'm currently trying to work out the most interesting way to get to Germany/NL
[04:21] <sladen> fabbione: now you have to do some real work for the next week :)
[04:22] <Simira> fabbione: I know. And you're still early out of bed?
[04:22] <Simira> sladen: you missed a conference? What's more interesting in Germany?
[04:22] <fabbione> sladen: if i can't ge some real sleep i won't survive the weekend
[04:22] <fabbione> Simira: i need to pack and leave earlier than the others
[04:23] <fabbione> Simira: i am going out with a friend of mine for a city tour, and of course it's raining
[04:23] <Simira> fabbione: well, I guess it's warmer than here... have a nice day anyway
[04:24] <fabbione> Simira: yeah thanks.
[04:47] <bokey> as
[04:47] <bokey> nas0
[05:14] <elias_> At which time do I reach the most people here in this channel?
[05:18] <bddebian> Howdy
[05:49] <cjwatson> siretart: every boot> I tried to persuade mjg59 of that during the edgy cycle; I remember that he persuaded me to leave it the way it was, but I don't remember how ...
[05:57] <elias_> How do I add a specification page to ubuntu wiki? Is the only way to create a wiki link somewhere? If so, where would I add the link for a new specification?
[06:00] <apokryphos> elias_: #ubuntu for support
[06:08] <cjwatson> elias_: visit the URL you want to create, select "SpecTemplate"
[06:09] <elias_> cjwatson: txn
[06:09] <elias_> tnx
[06:13] <Simira> cjwatson: is Tollef still nearby?
[06:14] <siretart> cjwatson: interesting. seems worthwile to me to file a bug about this. hm. I'll ask him when he's around
[07:06] <highvoltage> I love Ubuntu. I love Ubiquity, I love Casper, I love d-i, I love debian packages, and most of all, I love how easy all of this makes my life.
[07:07] <elias_>  I love the concept of network-manager! A daemon in the background which different GUIs in different desktop environments talk to! I believe this approache should be choosen more frequently. Next best example which come into my mind is power management. I created a specification to this strategy and want to invite everybody to add cases where this strategy would also make sense. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EfficientCodingStrategySpec
[07:08] <pygi> elias_: you are right, just the concept :P
[07:09] <_ion> Well, separating the view from the controller is always a good thing. :-)
[07:10] <elias_> Yess!
[07:11] <_ion> (Unless you're a PHP programmer, in which case you *know* it's better to put the controller and the model all around the view.)
[07:12] <elias_> As I describe in my spec this prevents the community from wasting valuable coding time. It happens just to often that the same thing probably even in the same quality is done twice.
[07:12] <elias_> dbus and dcop is such an example
[07:13] <elias_> both fulfilling the same need. but the one was open and accessible for everybody while the other one was hiding in it's KDElibs fortress.
[07:13] <elias_> To be never installed without KDElibs and QT.
[07:13] <cge> elias_: If I recall, those use different principles which not everyone agrees on. DCOP wasn't "hidden" - everyone knew about it, and others chose not to use it.
[07:13] <elias_> What a waste, now as they replace it with dbus in KDE4.
[07:14] <elias_> cge: But the barrier to use it was bigger.
[07:14] <cge> elias_: You might want to add various bonobo-related things to that list too.
[07:15] <elias_> Since you would have to either install all KDElibs or start your own tree to maintain it as a seperate package.
[07:15] <elias_> cge: Would you do me the honour of adding them? I just don't know enough about bonobo.
[07:16] <cge> elias_: It was a bit of a mess. I don't quite know what would fit either.
[07:16] <cge> But the thing is, sometimes you have to come up with multiple solutions to a problem in order to figure out what works best in practice.
[07:16] <elias_> Power management is going a weird path as well these days.
[07:17] <cge> Bonobo was a great idea, but in practice it was complicated and clunky.
[07:18] <cge> elias_: But the biggest problem I see with the spec is that we aren't writing that much code, and when we do, we aren't the ones causing divisions like that.
[07:19] <elias_> divisions like what?
[07:19] <cge> elias_: Like dcop and dbus
[07:19] <cge> elias_: I don't think we are in the position to prevent duplication like that.
[07:19] <elias_> the duplication as such is not so much the problem
[07:20] <elias_> the problem is, if it is either not accessible or to monolithic
[07:20] <elias_> like in powermanagement
[07:20] <elias_> where everybody tries to solve this in one monolithic gui app (applet)
[07:20] <cge> elias_: THAT is a very good point.
[07:21] <elias_> instead of splitting it into a daemon available for all desktops and a gui
[07:21] <elias_> and the important thing is, that this daemon exists as an independent package
[07:22] <elias_> available for installation without kde or gnome
[07:22] <elias_> so the other can use it without having to install all the dependent libs
[07:22] <cge> elias_: You should change the spec to emphasise that more. From reading it, I got the impression that your biggest point was about accessibility.
[07:22] <pecisk> anyone - how to access Ubuntu gstreamer headers from simple C app? #include <gst/gst.h> gives me error
[07:23] <pecisk> though libgstreamer0.10-dev is installed
[07:23] <elias_> cge: suggestions?
[07:24] <cge> elias_: Err, I mean duplication for the last word there.
[07:25] <cge> elias_: Design backends to be independent of desktop environments?
[07:25] <elias_> so I should more emphasise on accessability and the splitting into backends and frontends.
[07:25] <cge> elias_: Yes.
[07:26] <cge> Because that seems like the most important point that you are trying to make.
[07:26] <_ion> pecisk: 0) That is offtopic for this channel, 1) see if the -dev package contains something/pkg-config/something.pc (in that case see pkg-config(1)) or /usr/bin/gstsomething-config
[07:27] <cge> pecisk: Yes, I was meaning to tell you that you would probably get an answer faster if you asked in #ubuntu
[07:27] <pecisk> ok, thanks for answers anyway :)
[07:29] <elias_> cge: what could I change the title to?
[07:30] <cge> elias_: separate-backends maybe?
[07:31] <elias_> cge: shared-backends-between-desktops? 
[07:31] <cge> elias_: That would be good, yes.
[07:32] <elias_> cge: Thanks, for your valuable contribution! I will do that. Had the feeling my whole presentation is a bit confusing anyway.
[07:32] <elias_> I tend to tell too much.
[07:33] <cge> elias_: Well, it just seemed like you were placing emphasis on the wrong things.
[07:37] <elias_> Ok, thanks. Was good to get some feedback on that. Have to go to the movies now.
[07:39] <elias_> Is a specification actually the right place to publish such a strategy as it does not concern one specific application?
[08:50] <Adri2000> how often is updated app-install-data? and if a .desktop is modified in a package, it will be updated in the next version of app-install-data?
[08:52] <Mithrandir> Adri2000: generally around releases and yes.
[08:52] <Adri2000> ok
[10:10] <fdoving> cjwatson: can you take a look at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kopete/+bug/69583 - kopete SRU, mdz approved it for proposed, upstream changed the fix, need approval of the new fix, the new fix is in comment 13.
[10:10] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 69583 in kopete "SRU: kopete can't connect to ICQ. " [Low,Fix committed]  
[10:26] <Kim^J> Hi there. Does the 6.06 Server really take 500MB ?
[10:26] <Kim^J> Clean install.
[10:40] <kent> Kim^J: this is not the channel for support,
[10:40] <Kim^J> kent: I know. But maybe I could get a good answer here.
[10:40] <Kim^J> I have googled on it and now know that it is 500MB. But why 500MB???
[10:41] <Kim^J> Debian server install takes about 200MB and with all my programs it takes 442MB...
[10:41] <Kim^J> Kinda strange.
[10:42] <jdong> Kim^J: 500MB for what?
[10:42] <kent> Kim^J: you knew this is not for support, yet you still ask for support.   dont do it. as for the size, it depends on the programs installed..  then ubuntu has more programs installed by default. not so strange, just look at compare the list of programs with debian and ubuuntu
[10:42] <Kim^J> jdong: HDD space.
[10:43] <Kim^J> kent: Is there some page that tells me what is preinstalled then?
[10:43] <jdong> Kim^J: packages.ubuntu.com
[10:43] <jdong> Kim^J: search up the metapackages
[10:45] <Kim^J> A hint on the name of the meta package for the server install?
[10:51] <bhale> Kim^J: the "server install" is ubuntu-standard
[10:51] <bhale> with a -server linux-image instead of the standard one
[10:51] <bhale> and the CDs have apache, php isntead of gnome
[10:51] <Kim^J> Hmm...
[10:51] <bhale> but it doesnt install them right off
[10:51] <Kim^J> That I know.
[10:52] <bhale> so there isnt really a meta package
[10:52] <Kim^J> Looks like I have to use Debian then.
[10:52] <Kim^J> And backport some things.
[10:52] <Kim^J> I don'
[10:52] <Kim^J> I don't want all the crap that'
[10:53] <bhale> you cant use ubuntu because you misunderstood the server install cd?
[10:53] <Kim^J> that's installed by Ubuntu.
[10:53] <Kim^J> If the server install is just standard Ubuntu with a different kernel it's not really for my server.
[10:53] <Kim^J> I just want the needed packages. Nothing more.
[10:54] <Kim^J> I'm gonna reinstall the server and I thought why not Ubuntu 6.06 on the server to.
[10:55] <jdong> do a freakin minimal install
[10:55] <jdong> and install the server packages you want
[10:56] <pygi> jdong: :P
[10:56] <Kim^J> jdong: Don't have any cds to burn anymore! :D
[10:57] <jdong> Kim^J: then install your server, and start stripping packages off :D
[10:57] <jdong> Kim^J: and how does installing debian help with your no-CD problem? :D
[10:57] <Kim^J> baaahhhh
[10:57] <Kim^J> jdong: Cause Debian is minimal and I have the cd already,
[10:57] <Kim^J> But it's sarge and that's a bit old...
[10:59] <Kim^J> Meehh... What the fuck... I'll just make a bigger partion for the OS then...
[11:00] <jdong> Kim^J: you mean you could've done that and saved a page of complaining?
[11:00] <bhale> alright jdong 
[11:01] <Kim^J> jdong: Something like that yes...
[11:01] <bhale> if i can try to be nice, you can too :)
[11:02] <jdong> :)
[11:02] <Kim^J> hehe
[11:02] <Kim^J> I have some tea for your cookies.