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nixternalalrighty, i have looked over the mallard stuff, the spec, but i have yet to see a working example..i would like to see an example first, because what i am reading is creating either a FAQ type doc, or doing close to what we do now01:20
dsasFrom what I understand it is to be more question and answer style.01:30
nixternalhow do we select the questions though?01:31
dsaswell, question is the wrong word. for example "I installed a program but now I cant find it"01:31
nixternali don't think it is a good idea to get rid of the type of documentation we have as it is, but to do something extra like that as a help system is OK01:32
nixternalthen again, topic-based help systems is what microsoft does, and i will admit their help is pretty damn nice ootb01:33
nixternalso for help, ok i like the idea, but for documentation i don't01:33
nixternalas you can see from the forums, #ubuntu, and other support areas, a lot of people like hand holding01:34
dsasIt makes sense to me - who reads documentation? People who are experiencing problems, that and curious people.01:34
nixternala lot of people actually01:34
nixternalif they didn't we wouldn't be getting all the bugs we do01:34
dsasnixternal: But _why_ are they reading it?01:34
nixternalfor one, the documentation is really being read from help.ubuntu.com usually prior to them installing01:35
nixternaland if you ask a majority of the people where they go for helpo, they will say the forums01:35
dsasThe forums are in a "question and answer" style rather than a manual though.01:36
nixternalsee, we can't decide on something w/o input from a large user base, it could be dangerous01:36
dsasTrue, I guess it depends on how much you blindly trust mpt, upstream and a few others :)01:37
nixternalnot many people go through the help locally either01:37
nixternali don't use local help stuff or documentation, i just write it for kubuntu and kde01:37
dsasI just lurk in #ubuntu-doc and the list ;)01:38
Burgworkupstream is fairly smart01:39
Burgworkshaunm has been writing docs a long time01:39
nixternalim not saying they aren't fairly smart, but it seems they are taking their own ideas and opinions and pushing them into a project, instead of researching it first01:40
nixternaltopic based is good, but how many people actually use the help system locally anyways? i don't know..i know i don't, but that doesn't mean millions of others don't01:40
Burgworkare we talkinga bout mallard?01:40
Burgworkmallard has been in plan mode for almost 2 years now01:41
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dsasIsn't ubuntuguide.org, gwos, h.u.c and lots of other commonly used doc sources all topic/faq based too?01:42
nixternalis there any type of documentation for it, besides their rather blank web page that lightly goes over their ideas?  01:42
Burgworkthere is somewhere01:42
Burgworkask shaunm01:42
nixternaldsas: you just hit my next point, we have a million help things out there already, is adding another the correct thing?01:42
Burgworkthis is more a consolidation thing01:42
nixternalim not against this at all, i just want to understand it more so i can make a uniformed decision, and so if i think it is worth it, contact phil at kde about it, and present it to riddell as well01:43
nixternalso if my questions are rather ignorant, it is because i am towards the idea01:43
tonyyarussoWhat's mallard?01:45
Burgworka docbook replacement01:45
Burgworkbased around the idea of small, discrete, bits of help01:45
Burgworklinked, wiki style, together01:46
dsasnixternal: If this works out (and licensing issues are resolved) we can integrate more h.u.c/community stuff into the local help. 01:48
nixternalwell, what was the reason with switching to the CC-by-SA 2.5 recently then?  because from what I read I thought I seen we would require multiple licenses01:49
Burgworkwhy do we require multiple licenses?01:52
Burgworkthe two were chosen in the hopes that one would be declared non-free by debian01:52
Burgworkhowever, we have found that we interact little with the debian doc team01:52
nixternalwell, according to the spec the CC-by-SA won't work for this01:52
=== Burgwork needs to read the spec in more detail
nixternalthe current GNU FDL and Creative Commons licenses have problems01:53
nixternalthat is snipped01:53
dsaschoosing cc-by-sa buggers up integrating with gnome upstream. but that's apparently out of scope at the minute01:54
Burgworkgnome is considering cc by sa as well01:58
Burgworkand remember, numbers don't matter with cc by sa01:58
Burgworkie: if you license under 2.0, you have also licensed under 2.5 and 3.001:58
Burgworkanyway, I need to go home01:59
dsasthat could theoretically suck one day01:59
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fumbalahEvening guys05:18
fumbalahHows everyone doing?05:22
theCoregood, you?05:26
fumbalahDoing pretty well05:27
theCorehave you taken a look to the docs?05:28
fumbalahtheCore: I've edited a few wiki pages today, and basically rewritten another from scratch05:29
theCoreoh, that's nice05:29
theCoredo you have a copy of the docteam repository?05:30
fumbalahyea, I got one yesterday05:30
fumbalahI'm just starting with the wiki pages to get a feel05:31
theCoredo you have some technical knowledge?05:33
theCoreor you are mostly doing spell-checking?05:33
fumbalahboth :)05:34
fumbalahI help maintain 900 or so machines at my school a few hours daily, so...05:34
theCoreah, that's good05:36
fumbalahyea, hoping to role out edbuntu in a mini lab by the end of the month05:37
theCorein a University?05:41
fumbalahHigh School05:41
theCoreoh, that makes more sense... :)05:41
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fumbalahyea...I want to try it in a few classrooms05:41
theCorethose students will be lucky05:41
fumbalahHopefully :)05:41
fumbalahtheCore: Anything in specific you are working on at the moment?05:41
theCorewell, nothing related to Ubuntu right now05:41
fumbalahI meant like, not right now, but like, in the coming weeks?05:42
fumbalahWhichc i guess it would have just been easier to say tha05:43
theCoreoh, I'm probably continue doing some tech support and roll a graphical application for configuring GRUB 05:43
fumbalahah, nice05:44
fumbalahtheCore: Are you the one applying for CC membership at the next meeting?05:44
fumbalahAlright, I thought so 05:44
fumbalahI may just watch that process, just to see how to go about it at some point05:45
theCoreah, it is not hard05:45
theCorejust keep an history of what you have done05:45
fumbalahI've just got to make sure to keep a fair balence between the wiki and actual docs05:47
theCoreboth are fairly important05:47
theCorea nice way of working on the "official" docs is the merge things from the wiki05:48
fumbalahah, that makes good sense05:49
theCoreAlthough, I am not saying that you should copy and paste.05:49
theCoreeven if the Wiki is public domain05:49
fumbalahI would only merge what I wrote anyway :-p05:49
nixternalim not sold on topic based help replacing documentation..and i know i have read that is the plan...05:50
nixternali am banging my head on that topic here05:51
fumbalahnixternal: I figured you were gone for the night05:51
nixternali have been working on some servers, and still am05:51
nixternalbut during installs and what not, i am reading up on this spec05:51
nixternaltopic based help == the microsoft help center05:52
nixternalwhich is good05:52
fumbalahI think how it is works better 05:52
nixternalbut we can't replace our documents/handbook/manuals05:52
nixternalgranted, KHelpCenter really doesn't provide help as much as it provides information, and yelp is the same way though...the help is nothing but manuals, not help05:53
theCoreok, I am off05:53
nixternalso i can see a help system being very good, but not replacing documentation05:53
nixternallater theCore!05:53
theCoresee ya all05:53
nixternalwhen is the next CC?05:53
fumbalahnixternal: Shouldnt you know those things :-p05:54
nixternalnot really05:55
nixternalbut it seems im part of some secret society of late, and maybe i should05:55
fumbalahnixternal: If you'll give me a minute i'll try and find out05:56
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nixternalyoyo Madpilot!05:58
Madpilothi nixternal 05:58
fumbalahnixternal: No idea05:59
fumbalahcant'd find anythingg on it05:59
fumbalahnixternal: Did all my edits look ok?06:00
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nixternalya they were fine06:01
fumbalahalright, cool, thanks for lookin at em06:01
nixternalno problem06:02
fumbalahyou all were really good at getting me started06:02
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nixternalnah, you took it upon yourself to get started, we just jerked the steering wheel every now and again ;)06:03
fumbalahlol, that works too :)06:04
fumbalahI'm just going to work my way down the cleanup page at first06:05
nixternalexactly how i started06:07
fumbalahso how many emails do you average a day with all te wikipedia edits?06:09
nixternalnot that many...couple hundred maybe06:10
fumbalahWay too many for me06:11
nixternalwell, bug emails are more that double that06:11
Madpilotnixternal, are you one of the insane people subbed to the entire wiki? Both wikis?06:11
nixternalboth wikis06:13
nixternalkeeping an eye making sure everyone plays nice06:14
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fumbalahThats still alot of email06:18
nixternalya, but filters and kmail rock06:19
fumbalahI prefer gmail and filters, but to each his own06:22
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fumbalahgood morning03:02
fumbalahhows everyone?03:31
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fumbalahGood morning05:11
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fumbalahGet all the server work done last night?07:59
nixternalman, today is starting out to be quite busy already08:04
fumbalahNeed any help with anything?08:06
nixternalcan you take my stuff to the cleaners today ;)08:06
nixternaltoday is my personal day08:06
nixternali try not to work unless im hit up with some bug stuff08:07
fumbalah*uses matter transporter to take your stuff where it needs to go*08:07
fumbalahI'm trying to get a couple new pages typed out today :)08:09
nixternalya, i don't want to do much today, but rest, and maybe do some school work08:12
fumbalahGood call08:13
nixternalwhich im sure will be some goofy scripting stuff which i haven't looked at yet08:13
fumbalahWorking on the irssi page :)08:14
nixternalirssi page08:16
nixternaloh lord..didn't even know there was one08:17
fumbalahthere isnt, i was going to write it08:17
nixternalredirect it to irssi.org ;) it has everything there08:17
fumbalahAlrighty, that works too :), save me some writing08:17
nixternalit is hard writing a page that deals with settings, because of the bias that goes into it, some people may not like the ircii look, or liek the way bitchx works, and blah blah ;)08:18
nixternalthe redirect thing was a joke, btw ;)08:18
fumbalahah, alright..so i shouldnt really bother?08:19
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fumbalahhmm...*ponders what to work on*08:27
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fumbalahso bored08:43
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nixternalfood, done chicago style, fixes my bordom, back later ;)09:02
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fumbalahHows everyone?10:31
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