[01:20] <nixternal> alrighty, i have looked over the mallard stuff, the spec, but i have yet to see a working example..i would like to see an example first, because what i am reading is creating either a FAQ type doc, or doing close to what we do now
[01:30] <dsas> From what I understand it is to be more question and answer style.
[01:31] <nixternal> how do we select the questions though?
[01:31] <dsas> well, question is the wrong word. for example "I installed a program but now I cant find it"
[01:31] <nixternal> ya
[01:32] <nixternal> i don't think it is a good idea to get rid of the type of documentation we have as it is, but to do something extra like that as a help system is OK
[01:33] <nixternal> then again, topic-based help systems is what microsoft does, and i will admit their help is pretty damn nice ootb
[01:33] <nixternal> so for help, ok i like the idea, but for documentation i don't
[01:34] <nixternal> as you can see from the forums, #ubuntu, and other support areas, a lot of people like hand holding
[01:34] <dsas> It makes sense to me - who reads documentation? People who are experiencing problems, that and curious people.
[01:34] <nixternal> a lot of people actually
[01:34] <nixternal> if they didn't we wouldn't be getting all the bugs we do
[01:34] <dsas> nixternal: But _why_ are they reading it?
[01:35] <nixternal> for one, the documentation is really being read from help.ubuntu.com usually prior to them installing
[01:35] <nixternal> and if you ask a majority of the people where they go for helpo, they will say the forums
[01:36] <dsas> The forums are in a "question and answer" style rather than a manual though.
[01:36] <nixternal> see, we can't decide on something w/o input from a large user base, it could be dangerous
[01:37] <dsas> True, I guess it depends on how much you blindly trust mpt, upstream and a few others :)
[01:37] <nixternal> not many people go through the help locally either
[01:37] <nixternal> i don't use local help stuff or documentation, i just write it for kubuntu and kde
[01:38] <dsas> I just lurk in #ubuntu-doc and the list ;)
[01:39] <Burgwork> upstream is fairly smart
[01:39] <Burgwork> shaunm has been writing docs a long time
[01:40] <nixternal> im not saying they aren't fairly smart, but it seems they are taking their own ideas and opinions and pushing them into a project, instead of researching it first
[01:40] <nixternal> topic based is good, but how many people actually use the help system locally anyways? i don't know..i know i don't, but that doesn't mean millions of others don't
[01:40] <Burgwork> are we talkinga bout mallard?
[01:41] <Burgwork> mallard has been in plan mode for almost 2 years now
[01:42] <dsas> Isn't ubuntuguide.org, gwos, h.u.c and lots of other commonly used doc sources all topic/faq based too?
[01:42] <nixternal> is there any type of documentation for it, besides their rather blank web page that lightly goes over their ideas?  
[01:42] <Burgwork> there is somewhere
[01:42] <Burgwork> ask shaunm
[01:42] <nixternal> dsas: you just hit my next point, we have a million help things out there already, is adding another the correct thing?
[01:42] <Burgwork> this is more a consolidation thing
[01:43] <nixternal> im not against this at all, i just want to understand it more so i can make a uniformed decision, and so if i think it is worth it, contact phil at kde about it, and present it to riddell as well
[01:43] <nixternal> so if my questions are rather ignorant, it is because i am towards the idea
[01:45] <tonyyarusso> What's mallard?
[01:45] <Burgwork> a docbook replacement
[01:45] <Burgwork> based around the idea of small, discrete, bits of help
[01:46] <Burgwork> linked, wiki style, together
[01:48] <dsas> nixternal: If this works out (and licensing issues are resolved) we can integrate more h.u.c/community stuff into the local help. 
[01:48] <Burgwork> yes
[01:49] <nixternal> well, what was the reason with switching to the CC-by-SA 2.5 recently then?  because from what I read I thought I seen we would require multiple licenses
[01:52] <Burgwork> why do we require multiple licenses?
[01:52] <Burgwork> the two were chosen in the hopes that one would be declared non-free by debian
[01:52] <Burgwork> however, we have found that we interact little with the debian doc team
[01:52] <nixternal> well, according to the spec the CC-by-SA won't work for this
[01:53] <nixternal> the current GNU FDL and Creative Commons licenses have problems
[01:53] <nixternal> that is snipped
[01:54] <dsas> choosing cc-by-sa buggers up integrating with gnome upstream. but that's apparently out of scope at the minute
[01:58] <Burgwork> gnome is considering cc by sa as well
[01:58] <Burgwork> and remember, numbers don't matter with cc by sa
[01:58] <Burgwork> ie: if you license under 2.0, you have also licensed under 2.5 and 3.0
[01:59] <Burgwork> anyway, I need to go home
[01:59] <Burgwork> cya
[01:59] <dsas> that could theoretically suck one day
[05:18] <fumbalah> Evening guys
[05:22] <fumbalah> Hows everyone doing?
[05:26] <theCore> good, you?
[05:27] <fumbalah> Doing pretty well
[05:28] <theCore> have you taken a look to the docs?
[05:29] <fumbalah> theCore: I've edited a few wiki pages today, and basically rewritten another from scratch
[05:29] <theCore> oh, that's nice
[05:30] <theCore> do you have a copy of the docteam repository?
[05:30] <fumbalah> yea, I got one yesterday
[05:31] <fumbalah> I'm just starting with the wiki pages to get a feel
[05:33] <theCore> do you have some technical knowledge?
[05:33] <theCore> or you are mostly doing spell-checking?
[05:34] <fumbalah> both :)
[05:34] <fumbalah> I help maintain 900 or so machines at my school a few hours daily, so...
[05:36] <theCore> ah, that's good
[05:37] <fumbalah> yea, hoping to role out edbuntu in a mini lab by the end of the month
[05:41] <theCore> in a University?
[05:41] <fumbalah> High School
[05:41] <theCore> oh, that makes more sense... :)
[05:41] <fumbalah> yea...I want to try it in a few classrooms
[05:41] <theCore> those students will be lucky
[05:41] <fumbalah> Hopefully :)
[05:41] <fumbalah> theCore: Anything in specific you are working on at the moment?
[05:41] <theCore> well, nothing related to Ubuntu right now
[05:42] <fumbalah> I meant like, not right now, but like, in the coming weeks?
[05:43] <fumbalah> Whichc i guess it would have just been easier to say tha
[05:43] <theCore> oh, I'm probably continue doing some tech support and roll a graphical application for configuring GRUB 
[05:44] <fumbalah> ah, nice
[05:44] <fumbalah> theCore: Are you the one applying for CC membership at the next meeting?
[05:44] <theCore> yes
[05:44] <fumbalah> Alright, I thought so 
[05:45] <fumbalah> I may just watch that process, just to see how to go about it at some point
[05:45] <theCore> ah, it is not hard
[05:45] <theCore> just keep an history of what you have done
[05:46] <fumbalah> alright
[05:47] <fumbalah> I've just got to make sure to keep a fair balence between the wiki and actual docs
[05:47] <theCore> both are fairly important
[05:48] <theCore> a nice way of working on the "official" docs is the merge things from the wiki
[05:49] <fumbalah> ah, that makes good sense
[05:49] <theCore> Although, I am not saying that you should copy and paste.
[05:49] <theCore> even if the Wiki is public domain
[05:49] <fumbalah> I would only merge what I wrote anyway :-p
[05:50] <nixternal> im not sold on topic based help replacing documentation..and i know i have read that is the plan...
[05:51] <nixternal> i am banging my head on that topic here
[05:51] <fumbalah> nixternal: I figured you were gone for the night
[05:51] <nixternal> i have been working on some servers, and still am
[05:51] <nixternal> but during installs and what not, i am reading up on this spec
[05:51] <fumbalah> ah
[05:52] <nixternal> topic based help == the microsoft help center
[05:52] <nixternal> which is good
[05:52] <fumbalah> I think how it is works better 
[05:52] <nixternal> but we can't replace our documents/handbook/manuals
[05:53] <nixternal> granted, KHelpCenter really doesn't provide help as much as it provides information, and yelp is the same way though...the help is nothing but manuals, not help
[05:53] <fumbalah> yea
[05:53] <theCore> ok, I am off
[05:53] <nixternal> so i can see a help system being very good, but not replacing documentation
[05:53] <nixternal> later theCore!
[05:53] <theCore> see ya all
[05:53] <nixternal> when is the next CC?
[05:54] <fumbalah> nixternal: Shouldnt you know those things :-p
[05:55] <nixternal> not really
[05:55] <nixternal> but it seems im part of some secret society of late, and maybe i should
[05:56] <fumbalah> nixternal: If you'll give me a minute i'll try and find out
[05:58] <nixternal> yoyo Madpilot!
[05:58] <Madpilot> hi nixternal 
[05:59] <fumbalah> nixternal: No idea
[05:59] <fumbalah> cant'd find anythingg on it
[06:00] <fumbalah> nixternal: Did all my edits look ok?
[06:01] <nixternal> ya they were fine
[06:01] <fumbalah> alright, cool, thanks for lookin at em
[06:02] <nixternal> no problem
[06:02] <fumbalah> you all were really good at getting me started
[06:03] <nixternal> nah, you took it upon yourself to get started, we just jerked the steering wheel every now and again ;)
[06:04] <fumbalah> lol, that works too :)
[06:05] <fumbalah> I'm just going to work my way down the cleanup page at first
[06:07] <nixternal> exactly how i started
[06:09] <fumbalah> so how many emails do you average a day with all te wikipedia edits?
[06:10] <nixternal> not that many...couple hundred maybe
[06:11] <fumbalah> eww
[06:11] <fumbalah> Way too many for me
[06:11] <nixternal> well, bug emails are more that double that
[06:11] <fumbalah> wow
[06:11] <Madpilot> nixternal, are you one of the insane people subbed to the entire wiki? Both wikis?
[06:13] <nixternal> both wikis
[06:14] <nixternal> keeping an eye making sure everyone plays nice
[06:18] <fumbalah> Thats still alot of email
[06:19] <nixternal> ya, but filters and kmail rock
[06:22] <fumbalah> I prefer gmail and filters, but to each his own
[03:02] <fumbalah> good morning
[03:31] <fumbalah> hows everyone?
[05:11] <fumbalah> Good morning
[07:54] <fumbalah> Hi
[07:57] <nixternal> oy
[07:59] <fumbalah> Get all the server work done last night?
[08:04] <nixternal> nope
[08:04] <nixternal> man, today is starting out to be quite busy already
[08:06] <fumbalah> Need any help with anything?
[08:06] <nixternal> can you take my stuff to the cleaners today ;)
[08:06] <nixternal> hahaha
[08:06] <nixternal> today is my personal day
[08:07] <nixternal> i try not to work unless im hit up with some bug stuff
[08:07] <fumbalah> ah
[08:07] <fumbalah> *uses matter transporter to take your stuff where it needs to go*
[08:09] <fumbalah> I'm trying to get a couple new pages typed out today :)
[08:12] <nixternal> ya, i don't want to do much today, but rest, and maybe do some school work
[08:13] <fumbalah> Good call
[08:13] <nixternal> which im sure will be some goofy scripting stuff which i haven't looked at yet
[08:14] <fumbalah> Working on the irssi page :)
[08:16] <nixternal> irssi page
[08:17] <nixternal> oh lord..didn't even know there was one
[08:17] <fumbalah> there isnt, i was going to write it
[08:17] <nixternal> redirect it to irssi.org ;) it has everything there
[08:17] <fumbalah> Alrighty, that works too :), save me some writing
[08:18] <nixternal> it is hard writing a page that deals with settings, because of the bias that goes into it, some people may not like the ircii look, or liek the way bitchx works, and blah blah ;)
[08:18] <nixternal> the redirect thing was a joke, btw ;)
[08:19] <fumbalah> ah, alright..so i shouldnt really bother?
[08:27] <fumbalah> hmm...*ponders what to work on*
[08:43] <fumbalah> so bored
[09:02] <nixternal> food, done chicago style, fixes my bordom, back later ;)
[10:16] <fumbalah> hiya
[10:31] <fumbalah> Hows everyone?