=== lloydinho [i=andreas@conference/ubuntuconf/x-7422ce5ca1b03e25] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc === nixternal_ [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ryanakca [n=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@cpc2-stok6-0-0-cust395.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:20] alrighty, i have looked over the mallard stuff, the spec, but i have yet to see a working example..i would like to see an example first, because what i am reading is creating either a FAQ type doc, or doing close to what we do now [01:30] From what I understand it is to be more question and answer style. [01:31] how do we select the questions though? [01:31] well, question is the wrong word. for example "I installed a program but now I cant find it" [01:31] ya [01:32] i don't think it is a good idea to get rid of the type of documentation we have as it is, but to do something extra like that as a help system is OK [01:33] then again, topic-based help systems is what microsoft does, and i will admit their help is pretty damn nice ootb [01:33] so for help, ok i like the idea, but for documentation i don't [01:34] as you can see from the forums, #ubuntu, and other support areas, a lot of people like hand holding [01:34] It makes sense to me - who reads documentation? People who are experiencing problems, that and curious people. [01:34] a lot of people actually [01:34] if they didn't we wouldn't be getting all the bugs we do [01:34] nixternal: But _why_ are they reading it? [01:35] for one, the documentation is really being read from help.ubuntu.com usually prior to them installing [01:35] and if you ask a majority of the people where they go for helpo, they will say the forums [01:36] The forums are in a "question and answer" style rather than a manual though. [01:36] see, we can't decide on something w/o input from a large user base, it could be dangerous [01:37] True, I guess it depends on how much you blindly trust mpt, upstream and a few others :) [01:37] not many people go through the help locally either [01:37] i don't use local help stuff or documentation, i just write it for kubuntu and kde [01:38] I just lurk in #ubuntu-doc and the list ;) [01:39] upstream is fairly smart [01:39] shaunm has been writing docs a long time [01:40] im not saying they aren't fairly smart, but it seems they are taking their own ideas and opinions and pushing them into a project, instead of researching it first [01:40] topic based is good, but how many people actually use the help system locally anyways? i don't know..i know i don't, but that doesn't mean millions of others don't [01:40] are we talkinga bout mallard? [01:41] mallard has been in plan mode for almost 2 years now === theCore_ [n=alex@modemcable128.255-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:42] Isn't ubuntuguide.org, gwos, h.u.c and lots of other commonly used doc sources all topic/faq based too? [01:42] is there any type of documentation for it, besides their rather blank web page that lightly goes over their ideas? [01:42] there is somewhere [01:42] ask shaunm [01:42] dsas: you just hit my next point, we have a million help things out there already, is adding another the correct thing? [01:42] this is more a consolidation thing [01:43] im not against this at all, i just want to understand it more so i can make a uniformed decision, and so if i think it is worth it, contact phil at kde about it, and present it to riddell as well [01:43] so if my questions are rather ignorant, it is because i am towards the idea [01:45] What's mallard? [01:45] a docbook replacement [01:45] based around the idea of small, discrete, bits of help [01:46] linked, wiki style, together [01:48] nixternal: If this works out (and licensing issues are resolved) we can integrate more h.u.c/community stuff into the local help. [01:48] yes [01:49] well, what was the reason with switching to the CC-by-SA 2.5 recently then? because from what I read I thought I seen we would require multiple licenses [01:52] why do we require multiple licenses? [01:52] the two were chosen in the hopes that one would be declared non-free by debian [01:52] however, we have found that we interact little with the debian doc team [01:52] well, according to the spec the CC-by-SA won't work for this === Burgwork needs to read the spec in more detail [01:53] the current GNU FDL and Creative Commons licenses have problems [01:53] that is snipped [01:54] choosing cc-by-sa buggers up integrating with gnome upstream. but that's apparently out of scope at the minute [01:58] gnome is considering cc by sa as well [01:58] and remember, numbers don't matter with cc by sa [01:58] ie: if you license under 2.0, you have also licensed under 2.5 and 3.0 [01:59] anyway, I need to go home [01:59] cya [01:59] that could theoretically suck one day === ryanakca [n=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Ex-Chat"] === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["I'm] === theCore [n=alex@modemcable128.255-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kmitch87 [n=kyle@24.144.39.15] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:18] Evening guys [05:22] Hows everyone doing? [05:26] good, you? [05:27] Doing pretty well [05:28] have you taken a look to the docs? [05:29] theCore: I've edited a few wiki pages today, and basically rewritten another from scratch [05:29] oh, that's nice [05:30] do you have a copy of the docteam repository? [05:30] yea, I got one yesterday [05:31] I'm just starting with the wiki pages to get a feel [05:33] do you have some technical knowledge? [05:33] or you are mostly doing spell-checking? [05:34] both :) [05:34] I help maintain 900 or so machines at my school a few hours daily, so... [05:36] ah, that's good [05:37] yea, hoping to role out edbuntu in a mini lab by the end of the month [05:41] in a University? [05:41] High School [05:41] oh, that makes more sense... :) === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:41] yea...I want to try it in a few classrooms [05:41] those students will be lucky [05:41] Hopefully :) [05:41] theCore: Anything in specific you are working on at the moment? [05:41] well, nothing related to Ubuntu right now [05:42] I meant like, not right now, but like, in the coming weeks? [05:43] Whichc i guess it would have just been easier to say tha [05:43] oh, I'm probably continue doing some tech support and roll a graphical application for configuring GRUB [05:44] ah, nice [05:44] theCore: Are you the one applying for CC membership at the next meeting? [05:44] yes [05:44] Alright, I thought so [05:45] I may just watch that process, just to see how to go about it at some point [05:45] ah, it is not hard [05:45] just keep an history of what you have done [05:46] alright [05:47] I've just got to make sure to keep a fair balence between the wiki and actual docs [05:47] both are fairly important [05:48] a nice way of working on the "official" docs is the merge things from the wiki [05:49] ah, that makes good sense [05:49] Although, I am not saying that you should copy and paste. [05:49] even if the Wiki is public domain [05:49] I would only merge what I wrote anyway :-p [05:50] im not sold on topic based help replacing documentation..and i know i have read that is the plan... [05:51] i am banging my head on that topic here [05:51] nixternal: I figured you were gone for the night [05:51] i have been working on some servers, and still am [05:51] but during installs and what not, i am reading up on this spec [05:51] ah [05:52] topic based help == the microsoft help center [05:52] which is good [05:52] I think how it is works better [05:52] but we can't replace our documents/handbook/manuals [05:53] granted, KHelpCenter really doesn't provide help as much as it provides information, and yelp is the same way though...the help is nothing but manuals, not help [05:53] yea [05:53] ok, I am off [05:53] so i can see a help system being very good, but not replacing documentation [05:53] later theCore! [05:53] see ya all [05:53] when is the next CC? [05:54] nixternal: Shouldnt you know those things :-p [05:55] not really [05:55] but it seems im part of some secret society of late, and maybe i should [05:56] nixternal: If you'll give me a minute i'll try and find out === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:58] yoyo Madpilot! [05:58] hi nixternal [05:59] nixternal: No idea [05:59] cant'd find anythingg on it [06:00] nixternal: Did all my edits look ok? === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:01] ya they were fine [06:01] alright, cool, thanks for lookin at em [06:02] no problem [06:02] you all were really good at getting me started === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:03] nah, you took it upon yourself to get started, we just jerked the steering wheel every now and again ;) [06:04] lol, that works too :) [06:05] I'm just going to work my way down the cleanup page at first [06:07] exactly how i started [06:09] so how many emails do you average a day with all te wikipedia edits? [06:10] not that many...couple hundred maybe [06:11] eww [06:11] Way too many for me [06:11] well, bug emails are more that double that [06:11] wow [06:11] nixternal, are you one of the insane people subbed to the entire wiki? Both wikis? [06:13] both wikis [06:14] keeping an eye making sure everyone plays nice === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:18] Thats still alot of email [06:19] ya, but filters and kmail rock [06:22] I prefer gmail and filters, but to each his own === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Plug_ [n=crb@203-167-190-117.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul [n=ompaul@gnewsense/friend/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === joachim-n [n=joachim@AC8F3BCB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-28-95.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === GrantG [n=GrantG@unaffiliated/GrantG] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud_ [n=froud@dsl-242-173-191.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bojicas [n=bojicas@ner-as11069.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:02] good morning [03:31] hows everyone? === mpt [n=mpt@209.79.152.234] has joined #ubuntu-doc === joachim-n [n=joachim@ACC80C3C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:11] Good morning === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-65-108.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-65-108.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === joachim-n [n=joachim@ACC80C3C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:54] Hi [07:57] oy [07:59] Get all the server work done last night? [08:04] nope [08:04] man, today is starting out to be quite busy already [08:06] Need any help with anything? [08:06] can you take my stuff to the cleaners today ;) [08:06] hahaha [08:06] today is my personal day [08:07] i try not to work unless im hit up with some bug stuff [08:07] ah [08:07] *uses matter transporter to take your stuff where it needs to go* [08:09] I'm trying to get a couple new pages typed out today :) [08:12] ya, i don't want to do much today, but rest, and maybe do some school work [08:13] Good call [08:13] which im sure will be some goofy scripting stuff which i haven't looked at yet [08:14] Working on the irssi page :) [08:16] irssi page [08:17] oh lord..didn't even know there was one [08:17] there isnt, i was going to write it [08:17] redirect it to irssi.org ;) it has everything there [08:17] Alrighty, that works too :), save me some writing [08:18] it is hard writing a page that deals with settings, because of the bias that goes into it, some people may not like the ircii look, or liek the way bitchx works, and blah blah ;) [08:18] the redirect thing was a joke, btw ;) [08:19] ah, alright..so i shouldnt really bother? === fumbalah [i=brett@unaffiliated/fumbalah] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:27] hmm...*ponders what to work on* === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:43] so bored === Liz [n=liz@203-173-178-96.bliink.ihug.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:02] food, done chicago style, fixes my bordom, back later ;) [10:16] hiya === ryanakca [n=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bojicas_ [n=bojicas@ner-as11069.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ryanakca [n=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:31] Hows everyone? === pygi [n=mario@83-131-10-61.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc === pygi [n=mario@83-131-15-216.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mario_ [n=mario@83-131-22-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-doc