/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/11/12/#ubuntu-devel.txt

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_ionAlready over 200 downloads of the default wallpaper debs with the warning about untrusted repositories.12:50
Hobbseehehe, nice12:50
_ionhttp://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/wallpaper-dl-count12:50
Hobbseei still think you should have changed their repos back at the same time12:50
Hobbseeor just installed some crack on their machines12:51
Hobbseehaha, nice pic12:51
Hobbsee_ion: s/may/will/g12:51
Fujitsu_ion: It replaces the Edgy wallpaper package?12:52
Hobbsee_ion: but what happens if they're not using the default?12:52
_ionI don't want to do any harm (or anything that could even remotely be considered as harmful) to their systems, just warn them.12:52
_ionhobbsee: Then they won't see it, unfortunately.12:52
Hobbsee_ion: can you force it that they will?12:52
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FujitsuIt'd be nice to do that to GDM, but it's not too easy to make GDM themes.12:53
_ionSome horrible kluge that changes users' wallpaper gconf settings in postinst has passed my mind, but i don't know...12:53
Hobbsee_ion: i suppose you could always remove the file where it says what the default desktop is12:53
Hobbseesounds sane to me12:53
FujitsuA usplash!12:53
Hobbsee_ion: also, you probably want a link to why unofficial repos are bad, and how to fix them12:54
HobbseeFujitsu: its' too quick12:54
FujitsuTrue.12:54
Hobbsee_ion: if it's a desktop background, they'll get the message - but you do want a link as to why they're bad12:54
Hobbseeseeing as these users dont seem to know any better12:54
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_ionI'm quite tired currently, i don't feel like gimping, but if someone else makes a nice replacement picture, i'll package it.12:56
Hobbsee_ion: however, yours does look really cool :)12:57
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geser_ion: have you checked if you can overwrite the users wallpapers by setting a mandatory gconf key?12:57
_iongeser: Hm, nope. I'll look into that.12:58
Hobbseegeser: that's a question of morality12:58
Hobbsee_ion: something tells me that would scare a user enough to revert12:58
_ionThere's the problem that just reverting their sources.list doesn't revert any harm that's done. The next distribution upgrade *will* break.12:59
Hobbsee_ion: that is a point.  how is mvo going to deal with that with the upgrader?01:00
lifelessforce01:00
lifelessso the user has two options01:00
Hobbsee_ion: that being said, the less updates gotten thru there the better - ie, the less damage.  less crap to fix01:00
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lifelessa) uninstall things until the upgrade can work01:00
Hobbseehey BenC 01:00
Hobbseelifeless: they can force that?01:01
BenChey01:01
Hobbseeb) let the upgrader do it for them01:01
lifelessb) tell the upgrader to do its best.01:01
Hobbseei wouldnt trust a user to actually get all of their crap uninstalled01:01
Hobbseei would be of the opinion that the installer had to do it itself01:01
geserHobbsee: of course it's a question of morality. but if you want to do it it's imho better to set a mandatory key instead of changing the users settings01:02
Hobbseegeser: whichever works01:02
lifelessusers will hurt us if we lose their settings01:02
jdub"if you want to fix this, remove BLAH package"01:02
lifelessextremely bad idea to overwrite one of their settings.01:02
jdub^ easy way to handle it if doing it via mandatory settings01:03
jdubwhereas you have no recourse if you overwrite (even relatively unimportant) user settings01:03
Hobbseetrue01:04
_ionlifeless: Not "we" as in Ubuntu, but a package somewhere in a kilometer-long list of unofficial repositories dumped to their sources.list because some random Italian guy said so in his blog.01:04
Hobbseehowever, _ion's stuff isnt official, so not really bound by the same constraints01:04
lifelessanyhow, its quite straightforward for the upgrader to roll backk everything they had installed extra, upgrade, and then try to install their things again01:04
lifeless_ion: I know that01:04
Fujitsu_ion: You can easily set a mandatory gconf key to dictate wallpaper.01:05
_ionfujitsu: Yeah, i already looked how it's done.01:05
Fujitsu_ion: Great!01:05
_ionStill unsure whether i should actually do that.01:05
Hobbseeyou could always just replace upstart by something that wont boot.  or just take out gdm.  but that would be truly evil01:05
Fujitsu_ion: It's not going to damage anything... Have it reverted in the prerm or something.01:05
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_ionhobbsee, fujitsu etc: Comments? http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/untrusted_repositories02:09
Hobbsee_ion: stick a link as to why?02:09
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_ionI added some additional text to the image.02:10
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Hobbseeyes, i thought you had.  right now, i cant see waht it is though02:11
_ionI guess the image you see comes from your browser's cache. Please reload.02:11
Hobbseeoh yeah :P02:12
Hobbseevery nice :)02:12
Hobbseeonly thing possibly missing is a list of proper repos?02:12
Hobbseewell, a link to one?02:12
Hobbseemaybe02:12
_ionThey'll probably need to ask a more tech-savvy friend of theirs to help anyway.02:13
Hobbseetrue02:14
Hobbseethere's a point02:14
Hobbsee_ion: i wonder if there's a way to detect how many people have fixed their systems02:15
Hobbseeso you could see if it was working02:15
_ionI could calculate the number of hosts that "apt-get update" my repository per day.02:15
_ionIt should be, well, near zero. The last time i checked it was about 700. :-)02:16
Hobbsee:)02:16
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niksoronhi. i'm hacking /usr/share/hal/scripts/hal-system-power-suspend. is this the right way to do suspend to disk from the command line?04:14
jdongFORCE=true /etc/acpi/sleep.sh04:25
mjg59/etc/acpi/sleep.sh force04:26
mjg59Should work too04:26
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niksoronmjg59, jdong, cool. thanks04:29
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pygisivang: ping?12:22
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shawarmaWhere do I find the source for d-i?01:27
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Burgundaviaapt-get source01:28
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Burgundaviashawarma: or upstream cvs01:29
bhalehi Burgundavia 01:29
Burgundaviahey bhale01:29
shawarmaBurgundavia: Oh, there's a debian-installer package? Doh.. I didn't even check that.01:29
shawarmaBurgundavia: thanks.01:29
hyakuheihi all, where can I grab the docs for devel, Man 3 "The linux programmers manual" being most pressing?01:30
bhalehyakuhei: manpages-dev most likely01:31
shawarmaBurgundavia: Actually, I'm looking for the particular script that sets up the initial user. Do you happen to know which script that would be?01:32
hyakuheibhale: thanks muchly01:32
Burgundaviashawarma: look at the package user-setup01:34
shawarmaBurgundavia: Yeah, I just stumbled upon that one as well. Thanks.01:34
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bddebianHeya03:11
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_ionSigh. Any of the people who dumped that list of 50 random repositories to their sources.list don't seem to acknowledge the point of the warning message in the changed wallpaper, instead they're crying "zomg u hax my computar".07:10
_ionhttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=297814&page=407:11
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minghua_ion: people will always find things to complain07:18
minghuaif you think you are doing the right thing, keep it going and ignore them07:18
minghua_ion: I for one strongly support your "raise-the-awareness-of-potential-harm-of-unofficial-repositories" campaign07:19
_ionAnyway, i didn't push anything to their computers, instead they decided to pull packages from my website, then declare they trust my PGP key, and install the packages. :-)07:21
_ionI never asked for that.07:21
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pygihey ogra 07:33
ograyo07:33
pygihow are you ?07:33
ograso so ...07:37
pygiuh, that doesn't sound too good :-/07:38
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_ion"whoever operates that repository should be blacklisted by the Ubuntu community" :-D09:17
_ionWtf is blacklisting by the Ubuntu community? :-)09:17
minghuadraft a "enemy of the community" list and put your name on it :-P09:18
cjwatsonI commented on that thread trying to correct a false analogy09:18
_ionYep, thanks for commenting.09:19
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=== minghua noticed that quite a few angry users are swearing and asking which repository that wallpaper is coming from, yet nobody has pointed it down in the thread
minghuawhich proves a point by its own09:26
pygiminghua, url,lol? 09:26
minghuahttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=29781409:27
_ionOne point is that my repository is behind my home ADSL. It had like five users or so, until suddenly hundreds of computers started using it. :-)09:32
_MMA_" And yes, it's coming from trevino's list for sure." http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1746779&postcount=1509:32
minghua_ion: did you change it to lock down the "change desktop background" gconf entry as well?09:33
_ionminghua: Yep. It removes it in postrm, so after cleaning sources.list they just need to apt-get install edgy-wallpapers/edgy and it's gone without a trace.09:33
_ionprerm even09:33
pygiminghua, dude is formatting drive!!!09:34
minghua_ion: very cool.  I may ask you for this package one day, so that I can put it in my experimental repo :-)09:34
minghuapygi: yeah, I've just read that too09:34
minghuaI wonder if he is going to add that sources.list again after the reinstall09:35
pygiand what exactly is that repo advertising that it contains?09:35
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_MMA_As a community should we be doing this? Is this the way to act? I think the wall is funny but to let the guy format his drive instead of telling him how to fix it is wrong.09:37
_ionActually the text in the warning tells what he should do. That's the whole point.09:38
_MMA_"Review your sources.list"? Is that what your referencing?09:40
minghuahe said himself that his /etc/sudoers and /etc/fstab are changed after he upgraded with that sources.list09:40
minghuaI honestly think a reinstall does him more good than bad09:41
_ionminghua: Yes, other repositories in the trevio list are screwing his system.09:41
cjwatson_MMA_: as a community, we should not be DOSing an innocent developer's home ADSL line because somebody thought it might be a good idea and couldn't be bothered to check09:41
_ion*Actually* screwing instead of just changing the wallpaper.09:41
cjwatsonI mean, seriously, common civility ...09:41
_ionHe also said "my edgy is used by me as a tinker toy [...]  I have Dapper as my standard fall back for ubuntu when things go south"09:41
_MMA_cjwatson: I agree. I just think its a little much. Its not the "community" message I got at UDS/MV.09:43
cjwatsonthere also may not be a particularly straightforward fix that doesn't involve installation. Our package management system has never smoothly supported downgrades, particularly not from unofficial package09:43
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cjwatsons/installation/reinstallation/09:43
cjwatsonand if something else is pissing around with /etc/sudoers, then _ion's wallpaper may well be a timely warning09:44
cjwatsona downgrade would certainly not undo that; somebody would need to figure out exactly what was done to the system and work out how to revert it all by hand09:44
cjwatsonif somebody wants to work that out, that would be good, but it's a fairly big task09:45
cjwatsonreally, we need to make it easier to install just certain packages from given repositories09:46
cjwatsonyou can do it with /etc/apt/preferences, but few actually do09:46
pygicjwatson, because few know about it09:47
cjwatsonI wonder if something like 'deb http://foo.example/bar unstable main [beryl compiz] ' would be more likely to cause people to use it09:47
cjwatsonpygi: it's also a hideously complicated syntax09:47
pygicjwatson, indeed09:47
_ionI would appreciate it if that thought about sudoers was mentioned in the forum thread by someone with the "Ubuntu Developer" title for authority. :-)09:47
wasabiLargely I think this is a matter of training on the part of third party repos.09:48
wasabiThey shouldn't distribute software that is already in the main repository. That would be silly.09:48
wasabiA lot of these third party repos are people's personal thingies where they drop whatever they want for themselves.09:49
wasabiThey probably shouldn't advertise those as stable sources for third party products.09:49
_ionwasabi: Many of the users of that sources.list seem to be using exactly for newer versions of packages already in Ubuntu: "All Im saying is that if you want to attract people that know how to get around in Windows (what you might call the power users) and get them to try Linux, one thing you absolute cannot expect them to do is sit on their hands and watch new version of software be released, only to be told they cant install them because ...09:49
_ion... they arent yet in the official repositories blessed by whatever royal priesthood controls the repositories for that distribution. Maybe people in some nations might put up with that (the folks used to living under totalitarian governments) but I can guarantee you that folks from the USA and other freedom-loving countries are going to tell your royal priesthood to go screw themselves."09:50
wasabiAgreed. I fully agree.09:50
_ion(That quote is so wrong on so many levels :-).)09:50
wasabiBut still, it is a matter of those third party repositoriies to not break shit.09:50
Treenaksthey could just run the development version ;)09:50
_iontreenaks: Agreed.09:51
pygiTreenaks, nod:)09:51
wasabiIf they want to distribute later versions of software, they should do so properly... provide a later version of the software, hopefully backported to run on earlier libraries when possible.09:51
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wasabiPerhaps, if they are targeting a specific ubuntu release, package a seperate install of the library.09:51
cjwatsonwasabi: right, but a much easier way for people who distribute this sort of "big list of sources.list entries" to say "take these particular packages from these sources" would make breakage much less likely09:52
wasabiYeah. Well, that is apt preferences. And it should work.  By the way, check this out:09:52
wasabiwiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt09:52
cjwatsonwasabi: and make the effects of malice less serious09:52
wasabiIt can semi address this09:52
wasabihttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt09:52
cjwatsonwasabi: I know about /etc/apt/preferences, but it's too complicated to actually get recommended in practice09:52
imbrandoncjwatson, ...... deb http://foo.example/bar unstable main [beryl compiz]  ......... that would help a ton imho09:53
pygicjwatson, what about doing a frontend to it?09:53
wasabiA frontend should update apt preferences properly.09:53
wasabiNo new syntax in sources.list needs to be introduced.09:53
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minghuaimbrandon: there is still the problem of dependencies09:53
wasabiIt's a matter of priority. Only teh package you want should be high, the rest should be very very low.09:54
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wasabiThen deps will come from Ubuntu proper, unless they don't exist.09:54
ttoinehey men09:54
cjwatsonwasabi: that is strictly true but in practice people continue to edit /etc/apt/sources.list directly despite the existence of frontends, and I think that will continue09:54
wasabiOf course. Those same people can edit /etc/apt/preferences. ;)09:54
minghuaone thing I see that can be improved is to make it easier to create different-software-in-different-directories repo instead of flat one that most third-party repo is using now09:54
imbrandonand howtos will still tell them too also09:54
cjwatsonbut they don't, and I don't see that changing.09:54
minghuaand teach third-party repo maintainers to use that layout09:55
cjwatsonI do not see a reason to resist simplifying overcomplicated syntax09:55
wasabiSilly argument. We are assuming users are doing something unsupported (if we've provided a proper interface.) 09:55
wasabiAt which point it becomes a "don't do that, silly" argument.09:55
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wasabiWe of course need to build awareness of the proper method.09:56
imbrandonbrb09:56
_ionOh well, i took down the wallpaper packages. The only people who "get it" already know better than to use trevio's list. The users of that list seem just to get aggressive. They'll probably continue using it anyway.09:56
wasabiSome nice chaps should volunteer to finish implementing ThirdPartyApt09:56
cjwatsonwasabi: no, I don't think it's silly. Editing /etc/apt/sources.list is *not* an unsupported method.09:57
wasabiIt is when you're adding third party repositories.09:57
Treenakscjwatson: that depends on what you add09:57
bhalewasabi: when editing a config file with vi becomes unsupported ill give up09:58
wasabibhale: Unsupported to the extent that you have to edit it right.09:58
cjwatsonthe present syntax for adding third-party repositories in a safe manner is overcomplicated and should be simplified REGARDLESS of the existence of frontends, proposals such as ThirdPartyApt, etc.09:58
Treenakscjwatson: I've had to "rescue" installs that broke.. because they had 2 versions of Ubuntu, 1 Debian and dozens(!) of third-party repositories in their sources.list09:58
wasabiAnd if you edit it wrong, we'll laugh at you.09:58
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cjwatsonTreenaks: and if it weren't so excessively complicated to limit third-party repositories to just a few packages then I'm prepared to bet that howtos would actually bother to recommend doing so09:59
wasabiAnyways, I fully think the problem goes away if somebody finished ThirdPartyAPt.09:59
cjwatsonwasabi: I doubt it09:59
imbrandoni dont agree wasabi09:59
cjwatsonThirdPartyApt is potentially neat but people will still recommend the lower-level interfaces09:59
imbrandonbut anyhow i have to run, cjwatson exactly09:59
ttoineso everybody is at home ?09:59
wasabiUh huh. And those low level interfaces are well defined.09:59
cjwatsonand the existence of higher-level tools is never a valid argument for failing to fix the lower-levell interfaces09:59
wasabisources.list and apt_preferences09:59
wasabiUnless they're not broken. ;)10:00
Treenaksapt_preferences is a HORROR10:00
cjwatsonthey're well-defined but overengineered for most purposes10:00
cjwatsonthat overengineering is a bug10:00
wasabiI guess.10:00
Treenakstry figuring out pinning from the manpage.. it's impossible10:00
wasabiI agree. I'd like a UI.10:01
cjwatsonand it's fundamentally hard to document because the interface sucks10:01
cjwatsonit was written for complete generality by somebody who thoroughly understood apt internals, without a lot of thought directed at the most common cases10:02
wasabiK. Well. Whatever. ;)10:02
cjwatsonwasabi: ThirdPartyApt seems to me to solve a slightly different problem, namely how to publish the necessary information about a repository as a single bundle10:04
wasabiYup. One click, it would pin the proper things.10:05
wasabiProblem gone.10:05
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cjwatsonseems kind of orthogonal; in this case, the victim users were entirely happy to edit the files10:05
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cjwatsonand also in this case, remember that that would have been fifty clicks, not one ...10:06
cjwatsonor a giant .apt file, I guess10:06
Amaranthis it even possible to pin things so the supported repos are always used unless you specifically add a pin for a certain package to come from somewhere else?10:06
Amaranthif so that first part should be a part of the shipped file10:06
wasabiAmaranth: You can make hte priority for the official origin be higher than default, and make specific packages be one higher than that.10:07
Amaranthyeah10:07
_ionI wonder whether they'd have prefered me doing *nothing* when i noticed hundreds of computers were using my repository. They'd have a broken linux-restricted-modules package currently. I removed everything from the 'all' section immediately back then.10:07
wasabiAgain though, it is ultimatly still up to the provider of the repository to make sure the right stuff gets pinned.10:07
Amaranthsynaptic could show package in "New in Repository" but not upgrade them automatically10:07
cjwatsonwasabi: oh, hey, I have a concrete technical argument ...10:07
wasabiAnd not to upload bad shit into his repos.10:07
Amaranthchoosing to install them from the "New in Repository" list would add the pin10:07
cjwatsonwasabi: apt needs to know about the limitation on which packages are included because the added GPG keys should be restricted to only certain packages10:08
cjwatsonwhich mitigates the hideously bad effects of GPG keys being added by something you click on in a web page10:08
wasabicjwatson: Not effective as a security measure, and the practicle is more easily implemneted with pinning10:08
cjwatsonand that needs to be a hard restriction, not merely a lowering of priority10:08
cjwatsonso it's not actually quite the same as pinning10:08
wasabiSure, but it doesn't protect you from anything.10:09
wasabiSo, it's not worth doing.10:09
mjg59cjwatson: Go cycle :p10:09
wasabiAny package, even one, installed from a remote repository, of course, runs as root, and is more than welcome to do whatever it wants.10:09
cjwatsonsure, but it can't e.g. overwrite your kernel unless you supply --force-overwrite10:09
wasabiSure it can.10:10
wasabiIt just needs to run a rm in postinst10:10
Amaranthit can rm it10:10
Amaranthyeah10:10
cjwatsonI realise it only raises the bar a little bit, but I don't agree that that's not worth it10:10
wasabiIt's a lot of work. ;)10:10
wasabiThe pinning takes care of the actual problem.10:10
cjwatsonwasabi: uh - dpkg tracks overwrites by means of its file lists, not what happens to be on the filesystem10:10
wasabicjwatson: So?10:10
cjwatsonso "it just needs to run a rm in postinst" is false10:11
wasabiI don't follow.10:11
wasabiWhat are you trying to prevent?10:11
wasabiA remote legitimate kernel package being installed when the user attempts to install it, or?10:11
mjg59cjwatson: It can mv a replacement kernel on top of the packaged one10:11
wasabiOr malicious remote software?10:11
cjwatsonmjg59: true. whatever10:12
cjwatsoneveryone seems to think security is binary, so I'll slink off and go cycling10:12
Amaranthonce the user starts installing the package all bets are off10:12
wasabiYeah. All I want to do is provide tools to repositoiry owners so they can release software in a supported fashion without breaking peoples stuff on accident.10:13
wasabiThey can still break it on purpose. ;)10:13
Amaranthwasabi: what sorts of tools? I missed that part10:13
wasabihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt10:13
wasabiPlease finish it up. I have a half-assed python implementation right now.10:14
wasabiWhich does a ton of popen's to do it's owkr.10:14
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Amaranthsounds interesting10:17
Amaranththe spec i mean, not the code :P10:17
Amaranthi think modifying apt itself to do the pin stuff would be even better10:18
Amarantha repo not in some list of defaults cannot be upgraded to, you have to explicitly choose to install things, then you get a pin that lets you upgrade that one package from that repo10:19
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wasabiWell, that requires a list of defaults. ;)10:19
wasabiWhich is seperatly maintained from the primary list.10:19
wasabiDoes Pinning let you pin based on a GPG key?10:20
wasabiThat's the ideal circumstance.10:20
wasabiUbuntu pin's itself at some known level, everything else gets lower.10:20
wasabithe .apt handler pins things at a level higher than Ubuntu, but only for the GPG key.10:21
Amaranthi would say only for the package you've chosen to install that has that GPG key10:21
wasabiYup.10:21
wasabiThe .apt file isn't just to add repos, btw.10:21
wasabiIt speciies a set of packages to install from the new repos.10:21
Amaranthyeah, it installs things too10:21
wasabiI would say, unless that is specified, it should not allow the .apt file to be added.10:22
wasabiThere's no point in clicking on a link on a web site that results in nothing happening.10:22
Amaranthbrb10:22
Amaranthi agree10:22
wasabibrbtoo10:23
Amaranthwasabi: you said you had some code?10:36
Amaranthah, found it10:37
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