=== motin [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === pygi [n=mario@83-131-22-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@cpc2-stok6-0-0-cust395.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === pygi [n=mario@83-131-22-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeffsch [n=jeff@dhcp561-1-99.dsl.ucc-net.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === dsas [n=dean@cpc2-stok6-0-0-cust395.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=alex@modemcable128.255-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lionelp [n=lionel@ip-61.net-82-216-103.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === jrshannon [n=jrshanno@S0106000f3d5cf89d.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:13] mdke: ping === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [04:53] nixternal: you around? [05:16] LaserJock: Hey, what's up? [05:17] hi [05:17] not a ton [05:17] trying to do various things [05:17] Same here. I'm trying to figure out what to work on in the kubuntu docs [05:18] Not really sure what to try and work/improve [05:22] How bout yourself? [05:58] yo yo LaserJock === fumbalah beats head trying to decide what to do [05:58] i been at the doggy hospital all night ;*( [05:58] bummer [05:58] serious? [05:58] ya [05:59] well, she has fluid around (not in) her lungs, caused her heart to swell, and she couldn't breathe and kept passing out [05:59] but they got her in an oxygen tank, and are giving her meds to try and push the fluid out [05:59] :( [05:59] hopefully she will be home tomorrow though [06:00] there went my laptop though ;( [06:00] doggy hospitals are where the money is [06:00] $500 tonight on the spot, and probably some more tomorrow [06:00] mhm === Burgundavia is glad he lives in Canada and has "socialist" medicare [06:01] what are you breaking tonight? [06:01] haha [06:01] I am busy breaking the website [06:01] ya, untested medication, which i will laugh when it bites ya [06:01] I was just reading through the -doc list about the topic-based-help spec [06:02] actually, illinois gets their meds from canada now, or did until that lady kicked the bucket [06:02] LaserJock: im slowly changing my mind on it, but not as a total replacement [06:03] well, i haven't really read the spec yet [06:03] and i have actually looked at the various topic based systems, and it means a lot more work on a few peoples part, but in the long run it will be worth it i think [06:03] is it lik mdke's propsal? [06:03] don't read the spec, the spec doesn't do topic based any justice [06:04] it refers to projects that are 2 years in the dreaming...i went and researched topic based help system, i.e. Microsoft and MacOSX [06:04] well, my point is that maybe "topic based help" was the wrong way of looking at it [06:04] I thought mdke's proposal was rather good [06:04] and the way we have it now in edgy [06:04] topic based help is good, and requires us to write docs a tad bit different, but the Mac documenters as well as the MS documenters still use Docbook for their systems [06:05] well, we don't have help, we have manuals/handbooks/guides [06:05] not so much on the Ubuntu side [06:06] kinda [06:06] well, if i goto help, it is the same handbook stuff i see in ubuntu that i do on kubuntu [06:06] if i need help, i goto the forums, wiki and irc [06:06] because i know my issue isn't in any of those manuals [06:06] right, but nothing says guide or handbook or manual [06:07] anyway, I know what you're saying [06:07] i say, we keep the manuals the way they are, however we take topics from those sources and create an extra doc that would feed topic based help [06:07] I think at some point we wanted to do that with the wiki [06:07] i.e. the wiki is the topic based help [06:07] well, mpt's spec is to rewrite or change the way we do the guides and all of our documentation for topic base [06:08] i think, to fully understand topic based help, that is good, we need to study ms technet and ms help [06:08] and possibly start a foundation that could eventually grow into something comparible one day [06:08] well, I don't see a ms help as being very practical for us [06:09] the design and layout would be practical [06:09] as ms help is topic based help, the inventor of topic based help [06:09] if you do help in ms, you can go straight to the web, to technet, and get pretty darn good answers [06:09] but do we have the manpower/time to have that much content [06:10] not at this time we don't [06:10] topic based help is only helpful if it's pretty complete [06:10] in order to do topic based help that would really matter, beyond how to get mp3s working, we would need everyone in here full time [06:11] so we need to be careful when looking at MS and OS X help systems [06:11] as it stands, the desktop guides, the server guide, and such can't be turned into topic based help, topic based documentation yes, but help no [06:11] what other topic based help systems are there besides those 2? [06:11] i mean that are as successfull [06:11] or complete [06:12] I don't know of any that are successful, for me anyway :-) [06:12] heh [06:12] it's hard for me [06:12] as I've never found and computer help helpful [06:13] well, i know ms can answer a majority of the questions you throw at it [06:13] I either use forums or books [06:13] the more advanced questions are covered in technet [06:13] i use google truthfully [06:13] any of the ones I look for in MS end up in "Sorry dude, we can't help you" [06:14] hehe [06:14] you need to pay for the answer thats why [06:14] but for the general questions they have all of the answers [06:15] I'll take your word for it then :-) [06:15] there is a link in mpt's spec, that covers a spec from 2005 concerning documentation, and there are a bunch of links that explain the importance and break down topic based help [06:15] i found a lot of good stuff there === fumbalah tries to catch up === GrantG [n=GrantG@unaffiliated/GrantG] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:16] i don't think ditching docbook is the answer though, as it seems all of the major topic based help systems start from docbook and make their way to html, pdf, hlp, and chm files [06:16] which microsoft loosers know chm files [06:16] ;) [06:16] losers too [06:17] nixternal: We should go all flash :_p [06:17] last time i flashed i went to jail [06:17] oh, flash, macromedia style [06:17] gotcha [06:17] lol [06:17] truthfully, i hate flash [06:17] Kill the joke :-p [06:19] Anyone need anything proofread? [06:19] where would you like to start? [06:20] the entire tree needs to be proofread [06:20] lol [06:20] The edgy tree i assume? [06:20] the entire tree needs 'svn rm *' [06:21] is it really that bad? [06:21] nixternal: MS and OS X don't have to worry about licenses or sharing, etc. [06:21] except for /teamstuff/book/* [06:21] ya LaserJock, which really makes it tough for us [06:21] that's a motivation for ditching docbook [06:21] Should I really just work my way through the tree? [06:21] i swore the recent talk was to switch to just 1 license, and now im seeing we need more [06:21] LaserJock: and go with what? [06:22] project mallard I guess ;-) [06:22] haha [06:22] sorry, almost died laughing at that one [06:22] that is a 2 year old project that no one has done anything on really but create ideas [06:22] the problem is that docbook docs assume relationships that don't work on a per-page basis [06:22] well..is there a third option? [06:23] you make a book or an article [06:23] docbook assumes books, not discrite bits of data [06:23] Maybe do something completely new...... [06:23] fumbalah: except we don't really have time to do that and it would have to be know to the Gnome/KDE doc teams [06:23] DITA? [06:23] but that is docbook [06:23] LaserJock: Ah, I didnt know [06:23] HTML [06:23] :-) [06:23] I'm still new to all this [06:25] so if i asked dumb questons ,sorry [06:25] heh, no problem [06:26] What would be the problem with seperating the documentation into a ubuntu and kubuntu doc team? [06:26] fumbalah: we are considering a new doc format, one that has been the brainchild of the lead GNOME doc editor for a few years [06:26] fumbalah: we share a lot of common people and structure [06:26] fumbalah: we also have the issue of lack of people [06:26] Burgundavia: but it hasn't materialized has it? [06:26] you should only split teams when they get too big [06:27] Burgundavia: Makes sense,and ah LaserJock, makes sense too [06:27] no, Mallard has not yet materialized, likely due to lack of time on shauns part [06:27] well, I don't see a need to split teams [06:27] split repos maybe [06:28] why split repos? [06:28] Burgundavia: I'm trying to help with the lack of people thing [06:28] excellent [06:28] the doc team could use a nice staff of about 50 right now [06:28] nixternal: because KDE docs our built and packaged differently [06:28] How many do you have? 24 right? [06:29] s/our/are/ [06:29] 5 [06:29] fumbalah: haha, I wish [06:29] maybe 10 [06:29] wow, i thought there were more [06:29] hard actually, since a lot of people took edgy off [06:29] You all feel free to use me where you need me please [06:30] I'd love to take a release 'off' [06:30] i know for edgy, LaserJock rocked out the pg, ubuntu stuff i don't know much about, kubuntu was robotgeek, trappist, jjesse, and myself, xubuntu i have no clue who rocked that [06:30] edgy was slow [06:30] mdke was on vacation during the freeze, which LaserJock busted his butt during [06:30] then mdke came back, and owned the translation stuff and rocked it all before release [06:30] You all did a great job with it, i'll give you that, from what i've seen [06:31] well, edgy docs == dapper docs w/ edits which == breezy docs w/ edits [06:31] so, as you can see, the current state of the docs are stale [06:31] ah, yea [06:31] Well. I hope to be an addition to your team sometime [06:32] well dapper is a lot more then breezy w/ edits [06:32] fumbalah: just dive right in [06:32] but edgy didn't get much [06:32] yeah, dapper kubuntu was nice [06:32] robotgeek: I have been with the wiki [06:32] edgy, i dropped the ball [06:32] edgy we all dropped the ball [06:32] yep [06:33] big time [06:33] but it happens [06:33] Do you all each have specific sections you work on? [06:33] that reminds me, I have new book files sitting in my inbox === fumbalah wanders over to the launchpad site [06:34] fumbalah: usually we have a doc or two we work on primarily [06:34] not really fumbalah, we just jump in where we need it [06:34] but lke me, i spend my time with kubuntu and edubuntu docs [06:35] I offer moral support. [06:35] ah, I think i'll eventually be hitting those mostly...Should I be concentratin on the wiki or the actual docs more? [06:35] LaserJock/nixternal-Why does the launchpad site say 24 people then? [06:35] crimsun just switched to KDE and told me earlier what he really thought of GNOME (then again, this joke has been played out over 100048302843 times now) [06:35] there are 24 people on the team, but some come and go [06:36] oh, i understand now [06:36] it's pretty clear what I think of all desktop environments [06:36] but only like 10 working? [06:36] that art guy viper has lost his mind [06:36] with any team it's important to distinguish the number of members with number of active members [06:36] nixternal: where? [06:36] dude is a windows user, and now he is saying he is the artist-in-chief for gnewsense [06:37] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Viper550 [06:37] regarding proofreading: trappist in the past has expressed interest in doing so [06:37] trappist is a writer i thought [06:37] he helps with KDE docs as well i believe [06:37] he is mostly proofreading [06:37] I'll do either, I think my proofreading is better then my writing [06:37] interesting [06:37] him and i were writing together on the kdg for edgy [06:38] i need my own proofreader [06:38] Can I join the wiki forum group on launchpad without being a member of ubuntu? [06:38] yes fumbalah [06:38] nixternal: Feel free to forward anything you need directly to me [06:38] nixternal: GnewSense can have him ;-) [06:38] joining those little teams and contributing helps when it comes to ubuntu membership later down the road [06:38] gnewsense is way better than ututo though [06:38] i am using it now [06:39] is the former contributing back to ubuntu? [06:39] do they even have enough people to do that? [06:39] heh, probably not because they are removing from ubuntu [06:39] nixternal: alright, added myself to that team, pending approval i guess [06:40] I'm biased since I'm not involved in that project, but my [perhaps misled] perspective feels that they've not expressed interest in working w/ ubuntu [06:40] but yea, you all please feel free to have me proofread things directley [06:40] oh ya, forgot about that being moderated...as long as you have some edits out there and know moinmoin Burg usually has no problem authorizing you [06:40] or approving you rather [06:41] crimsun: i really don't know, as they are paid by rms now, why contribute back to us [06:41] fumbalah, the wiki forum project has pretty much ground to a halt in recent months [06:41] GrantG: Really, why? [06:41] crimsun: do they have anything to contribute? [06:41] if so, that's a shame, because docs are really where they could shine [06:42] nixternal: I have a really stupid question about pgp keys [06:42] oh, fumbalah you whould have joined the wiki team [06:42] haha [06:42] fumbalah, my guess would be lack of interest [06:42] nixternal: why you lauging? [06:42] LaserJock: I can think of several instances of restricted-stripped use cases [06:42] i didn't see wiki forum [06:42] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnuPrivacyGuard [06:42] I believe I applied for both [06:43] i was wrong [06:43] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto [06:43] there you go [06:43] crimsun: k [06:43] hmmm, why does that have a Howto on the end of it? [06:43] there's a long and interesting past between the doc team and the udsf, the wiki forum team was an attempt to bring the two together [06:43] but didn't quite take off === Plug [n=crb@203-167-190-117.dsl.clear.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:43] well, isn't the current problem the licensing? [06:43] LaserJock: i didn't write it, but if someone around here did, it would be to get under the bossmans skin [06:43] haha [06:44] heh [06:44] LaserJock: i tried working with the udsf and i got 1 person to say i could transfer from udsf to ours, the rest were about as useless as the docs i seen [06:44] LaserJock, the licensing problem was worked around, the main problem was lack of workers to get it going [06:45] yes gaining permission from the original author was problematic [06:45] at one point i had everyone of the docs ont he list out waiting for approval from the writer, most of them didn't answer, or the other ones didn't want their docs apart of ours [06:45] if not nigh impossible [06:45] exactly GrantG [06:46] at least someone tried nixternal [06:46] when's the next docteam meeting? [06:46] well, that's why license compatibility would be nice [06:46] there were a couple of us that tried, but didn't seem to get anywhere with it [06:46] crimsun: when one is scheduled I think [06:46] (topic link is outdated; fridge doesn't list one) [06:46] hahahahha [06:47] crimsun: since i have been around here now, for almost a year, i think there has been 2 meetings [06:47] and one was for licensing [06:47] yes nixternal, I gave it my best but you and I couldn't do it on our own [06:47] it needed more interest [06:47] GrantG: ya, there wasn't many of us trying, i do know that [06:47] :) [06:47] well, it was a doc-wide problem for Edgy [06:47] just not enough effort put in [06:48] hmm, well, hopefully i'll get approved for at least the wiki team [06:48] what are the top issues for feisty? [06:48] 1) getting existing docs in shape [06:48] if we did CC-by-SA on the wiki, then we could copy the udsf [06:49] 2) making sure Ubuntu book is properly integrated [06:49] otherwise we have to get permission, which is like trying to pull teeth on a tiger that isn't knocked out [06:49] 3) decide on topic-based help [06:49] 4) decide if we wan to continue lulu.com [06:49] 5) decide if we want any new docs [06:49] 6) get our butts and gear and start writing [06:49] s/and/in/ [06:49] well, i know jjesse and i have talked about rewriting kubuntu docs, and if everything stays the same, we probably will, implementing the book and it's strucuter more than likely [06:50] also, the Kubuntu about and release notes are going to be done with kubuntu-devel now as it will be implemented into ubiquity [06:51] Anyone feel like signing my key? As I dont have it signed by anyone yet? [06:51] speaking of gNewSense, --> ompaul is one of their devs [06:51] he is the reason i tried it out actually [06:51] fumbalah: usually, the key is signed by someone you meet [06:51] fumbalah: keysigning protocol normally requires a face-to-face meeting, with verification [06:52] fumbalah: i don't even think my key is signed by anyone either [06:52] fumbalah, a signed key isn't totally needed; mine remains unsigned [06:52] maybe a couple of people from lug meetings and what not [06:52] alright [06:52] i have 2 sigs [06:52] fumbalah: people meet up for beer or so just to sign keys :) [06:52] hahaha [06:52] holy cow im a looser [06:52] Lets meet up for beer [06:53] beer [06:53] who wants to meet up for beer? [06:53] robotgeek: desktop guide rewrite for edgy, you up for it? [06:53] since that is your baby [06:53] haha [06:53] feisty rather [06:53] heh [06:53] I didn't even notice that [06:53] nixternal: sure, now that i have a machine + net [06:54] woohoo [06:54] I call proofreading duties on at least part of it [06:54] i figure, maybe take a look at the ubuntu book structure, and maybe work off it, just kubuntus tyle of course [06:54] it'd be nice to have more spec-like plans for docs [06:54] we've kinda just been doing thing haphazardly, IMO [06:54] LaserJock: jjesse had started some for kbuntu, but they got hammered into ubiquity specs pretty much, except of course for the kdg [06:55] well, let us spec some, then [06:55] if we actually write down some more detailed plans [06:55] then pretty much anybody can jump in and start working [06:55] i have a layout i came up with that is a draft for the kubuntu desktop guide, i could spec that, and then have robotgeek, jjesse, and myself work with it maybe [06:56] robotgeek: how does that sound to you? [06:56] nixternal: that would be swell [06:56] nixternal: sounds great! [06:56] Another dumb question [06:56] ya, let me fire that up and get it started [06:56] What do you all mean by spec? [06:56] specifications that we develop from [06:56] for the packaging guide I use: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide [06:56] it is the guiding factor of each project [06:57] fumbalah: specifications are what drive most of the Ubuntu development [06:57] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecSpec fumbalah [06:57] that's a spec on spec :) [06:57] Thanks again :) [06:57] cf. https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs as well [06:57] I'm having to fill myself in as i go [06:58] but again, if we're going to completely restructure the Ubuntu docs into this topic-based-help then we need to decide that first [06:58] we need to get in touch with kde upstream first. [06:59] it all makes sense now [06:59] our docbook foo is already confusing enough! [06:59] I'll try and quit asking the stupid questions [07:00] there are no stupid questions, only unbearable answers [07:00] lol [07:00] fumbalah: nah, keep then coming [07:00] hmm, i heard a variation on southpark, lol [07:00] LaserJock: I think that's it for now. I just want to help you all our however possible [07:02] here's a not stupid question...but, who do I need to know in way of contacts? [07:02] Like are their any important people I need in my contact list? === bojicas [n=bojicas@ner-as10454.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:05] ubuntu-doc list :) [07:06] Already there :-) [07:06] I meant any individuals? [07:06] yippee. tv works in linux :) [07:07] sorry, i could not contain my joy :) [07:07] mdke aka Matthew East is our semi official leader [07:07] Alrighty [07:07] And i got nixternal [07:10] So what are you all working on with fiesty? === fumbalah pokes you all [07:17] fumbalah: well, we should plan out something. [07:20] robotgeek: What should we plan out? === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:21] fumbalah: nixternal was about to post a spec on documentation (kubuntu) for edgy [07:21] fiesty? [07:21] (yes, feisty) [07:21] err, yews [07:21] lol === robotgeek is stuck in lalaland [07:21] lol [07:22] I'll be interested to read it [07:22] https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-desktop-guide [07:22] nixternal: My email account is slowly not looking so empty [07:23] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide [07:23] it will fill up eventually ;) [07:24] lol,slowly but surely [07:24] Those specs are really useful [07:24] I found out everything I didnt understand [07:25] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide/Structure [07:25] that is a quick structure that i came up with there [07:26] actually i didn't come up with it, i stole/borrowed it from the book [07:26] looks good [07:27] at least from my point of view [07:27] it looks huge actually [07:27] well, you could nix the extras section and merge it into the using section [07:30] that would cut down on length [07:31] well, i threw the extras in there for extra programs which aren't installed by default that someone might be looking for [07:31] especially for video editing [07:31] which, kdenlive might be the new video editor for 7.04 hopefully [07:32] nixternal: maybe we could have at least that part of the documentation elsewwhere, besides the book, and have it mentioned where it is [07:32] who would approve that spec btw? === tonyyserver [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:33] another reason i like it long that way, is because it will cause a greater Switching from Windows guide to be created as well [07:33] which I need to spec that, or rework the old spec as well [07:34] plus, im sure robotgeek or jjesse will come up with some of their magic as well, since they are the seasoned veterans [07:34] nixternal: how does the approval procces work? does someone from the ubuntu comunity will approve it [07:34] im guessing probably mdke maybe, but i know mpt can and more than likely will [07:34] or JR of course === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:35] how does it work though? does someone higher up have to approve? [07:36] yes [07:36] since a kdg rewrite would be a large job [07:36] ah [07:36] makes sense [07:38] well, I'll keep an eye out, let me know where you all need help [07:39] once it gets going, we will probably setup a table to track progress and hand out portions (hopefully) [07:39] alrighty...sweet [07:39] fumbalah: once we have it structured, you can pick up stuff you are comfortable with [07:39] robotgeek: cool [07:39] I'll probably write a little, but i'd mostly like to proofread for you all [07:39] it might take you a bit of time to get started with docbook, but we will be around [07:40] that would be great. it would be nice to have a consistent writing style [07:40] you know what robotgeek, i recently met a guy who just switched to kubuntu or ubuntu, and he is a pro tech writer that was interested..i need to get in contact with him and check his status [07:40] i seen some of his work at a lug or loco meeting..good stuff, and he is doing topic based stuff i believe as well, as his work is with the proprietary junk [07:41] nixternal: that would be great, to have inputs [07:41] robotgeek: yea, i figured it would...but I'd be glad to do more perminate proofreading then writing...It'd be easier on everyone i think [07:41] fumbalah: when i meant consistent writing style, i meant that you would ensure that :) [07:42] i need to finish the Karbon 14 docs for the KDE repos as well one of these days [07:42] you are more than welcome to pick and choose what you want to work on. there is enough of work for all :) [07:42] what is karbon? === robotgeek just uses a few apps on linux. :) [07:42] robotgeek: ah, I know that,but i guess i dont mind a little direction occasionaly [07:42] at least at first a little easier to be told what to do [07:42] karbon is the koffice inkscape [07:42] does svgs and all that [07:43] pretty nifty program actually [07:43] fumbalah: sure, not an issue. there is always someone on irc [07:43] yea [07:44] like, if you tell me to proofread x,y,z..eventually aftera little bit i'll pick up a,b,c by myself [07:45] fumbalah: sounds great! [07:46]