[12:38] <Adri2000> morning Fujitsu :)
[12:39] <Fujitsu> Hi Adri2000. I'll look at the package in a minute, currently looking through the night's science bugs.
[12:39] <Adri2000> ok
[01:20] <plugwash> anyone got any idea when stuff will start moving from sid into feisty?
[01:23] <Fujitsu> plugwash: It's been happening since the 9th or so.
[01:23] <Fujitsu> The buildds have caught up, except for sparc and ia64.
[01:24] <minghua> hey Fujitsu
[01:24] <Fujitsu> Hi minghua.
[01:25] <minghua> Fujitsu: If I want something in the science debian-vs-ubuntu list changes, should I ask you or LaserJock?
[01:26] <Fujitsu> Either, I guess... What do you want done?
[01:31] <minghua> Oh.  Just to add Debian's non-free there.  Or remove ubuntu's multiverse.  Now some of the "in Ubuntu but not in Debian" entries are just bogus, the eagle package, for example.
[01:34] <Fujitsu> I've added non-free, we'll see what that does to the package lists...
[01:35] <minghua> Fujitsu: I just realized that LaserJock's list has eagle there, while yours doesn't
[01:35] <minghua> not sure if LaserJock already had non-free or something
[01:35] <Fujitsu> Mine had eagle in that not-in-Sid list until 30 seconds ago.
[01:36] <minghua> yes, and LaserJock's has eagle in outdated-in-ubuntu
[01:36] <Fujitsu> As does mine now :)
[01:36] <Fujitsu> So it was my problem :(
[01:36] <minghua> all good :-)
[01:37] <minghua> so one change drops the length of not-in-ubuntu list from 24 to 9, not bad, huh? :-P
[01:37] <Fujitsu> 79 packages with local changes... Although I've requested a sync for one or two.
[01:37] <Fujitsu> Yep.
[01:38] <minghua> not-in-sid* BTW
[01:38] <Fujitsu> chemicalmime should be removed, it's been replaced in Debian.
[01:38] <minghua> is auto-sync supposed to be turned on in the near future?
[01:39] <Fujitsu> It's already on.
[01:39] <Fujitsu> Has been for 3 days.
[01:39] <Fujitsu> Hence the small list of outdated packaegs.
[01:39] <minghua> oh I see
[01:40] <minghua> when you said sync you meant "discard ubuntu change and sync"
[01:40] <Fujitsu> Ah, yes.
[01:55] <Fujitsu> minghua: There are three packages on that list which seem to have vanished from Debian without a trace... They're not mentioned in the removal logs, their p.q.d.o pages don't exist...
[01:56] <minghua> Fujitsu: what are those?
[01:56] <minghua> there are traces, just hard to find :-)
[01:56] <Fujitsu> chemicalmime, koctave, mascyma
[01:58] <minghua> Hmm, AFAICS none of the three has been removed from Debian
[01:58] <minghua> (according to http://ftp-master.debian.or/kg/removals.txt)
[01:58] <Fujitsu> But none of them exist either.
[01:59] <minghua> so renaming is the more likely cause
[01:59] <Fujitsu> (that's the list I looked at for removals)
[01:59] <Fujitsu> How do we track that?
[01:59] <minghua> compared with disappearing without a trace, I mean
[01:59] <minghua> not that I know of, unfortunately
[01:59] <Fujitsu> Grrreat.
[01:59] <Fujitsu> Presumably they will be in the same section, however.
[02:00] <Fujitsu> So I'll create lists of packages in Sid in the appropriate sections.
[02:00] <Fujitsu> And hopefully locate new/renamed packages.
[02:01] <minghua> heh
[02:02] <minghua> Fujitsu: those three are source package names, right?
[02:03] <Fujitsu> minghua: Righht.
[02:03] <Fujitsu> *Right
[02:04] <minghua> Fujitsu: Hmm.  My previous analysis is wrong.  Renamed source packages shows up in the removal log
[02:04] <Fujitsu> OK, so they /have/ completely vanished.
[02:04] <minghua> I am not going to admit that unless you present evidence that they existed before ;-)
[02:05] <Fujitsu> They have Debian revision numbers...
[02:07] <minghua> do they have distribution=unstable in debian/changelog, too?
[02:07] <Fujitsu> Yes.
[02:08] <minghua> (but if the uploader screwed up version number, he is likely to screw up the distribution as well)
[02:08] <Fujitsu> Quite possibly...
[02:08] <minghua> so, uhm, I am not taking that as a hard evidence
[02:09] <Fujitsu> snapshot.debian.net says that none of them have ever existed... So somebody screwed up the version number and distribution.
[02:10] <Fujitsu> But, a lot of times for each of them.
[02:11] <minghua> go hunt the uploader(s) :-P
[02:11] <Fujitsu> I can't easily tell who signed the uploads, though, so I'm not sure who to shoot...
[02:11] <Fujitsu> Ah! whatever-changes will tell em.
[02:11] <Fujitsu> *me
[02:12] <minghua> another possibility is we imported from some third-party repo with inappropriate versioning scheme
[02:12] <Fujitsu> That's probable.
[02:12] <minghua> or, the package kept old unofficial changelog entries
[02:13] <Fujitsu> For chemicalmime:
[02:13] <Fujitsu> Creator: Ubuntu Archive Auto-Sync
[02:13] <Fujitsu> Doesn't that imply it was autosynced from Debian?
[02:13] <minghua> it's hard for me to believe we have uploaders who screwed up version number and distribution multiple times
[02:13] <minghua> I don't think so
[02:14] <minghua> what does the -changes mail say about the packages we sync from debian-multimedia?
[02:14] <Fujitsu> That's a good question... I'll check.
[02:15] <Fujitsu> For myththemes (from debian-multimedia):
[02:15] <Fujitsu> Creator: William Grant
[02:15] <Hobbsee> hah - blame Fujitsu!
[02:15] <Hobbsee> :P
[02:16] <minghua> maybe the pre-soyuz era generate different -changes mails?
[02:16] <Fujitsu> The only way they will be attributed to Ubuntu Archive AutoSync is if it actually requests it automatically, or if the archive admin attributes it to it... I don't find either possibility likely in these cases...
[02:16] <Fujitsu> Argh.
[02:17] <Fujitsu> You know why it's listed as being autosynced?
[02:17] <Fujitsu> It was autosynced from pre-Soyuz.
[02:17] <bhale> is MoM running?
[02:18] <Fujitsu> bhale: It never stopped.
[02:18] <bhale> Fujitsu: is The Sync running?
[02:18] <Fujitsu> minghua: All the initial versions of packages in LP are attributed to the autosyncer. How deranged.
[02:18] <Fujitsu> bhale: Yep, since the 9th.
[02:18] <bhale> Fujitsu: rock
[02:18] <bhale> -changes-auto has nothing
[02:18] <Fujitsu> ia64 and sparc are yet to catch up, however.
[02:19] <Fujitsu> Chances are they're in the moderation queue.
[02:19] <Fujitsu> (like stuff to -changes was for several days)
[02:19] <minghua> Fujitsu: never trust the attribution of LP, I thought you already knew that :-P
[02:24] <Fujitsu> bhale: ubuntu-changes-auto has had no posts since May... I don't think it's actually used any more.
[02:25] <minghua> or is it just not archived?
[02:26] <Fujitsu> That's a possibility.
[02:26] <crimsun> I've noticed that feisty-changes doesn't seem to pick up any of my uploads, but that's extremely minor.
[02:27] <minghua> Looking at Fujitsu's struggle makes me appreciate archaeologist's work more :-P
[02:27] <Fujitsu> crimsun: They seem to have really stuffed up the moderation stuff this time around.
[02:30] <Fujitsu> None of those three packages are mentioned in warty-, hoary-, or breezy-changes.
[02:31] <Fujitsu> That's impossible, of course.
[02:35] <minghua> Fujitsu: must be from pre-warty era! :-P
[02:35] <crimsun> minghua: I deleted the To: header in -thunderbird
[02:35] <crimsun> I don't know whose fault that is, tbh. I probably should have fiddled with the drop-down
[02:36] <minghua> and your mail client is okay with that?
[02:36] <crimsun> ctrl+backspace + backspace, send
[02:36] <minghua> I think mutt won't let me do that
[02:36] <crimsun> apparently -thunderbird was happy to do so
[02:36] <crimsun> right, I never was able to do that with mutt
[02:37] <Fujitsu> This is CRAZY.
[02:37] <minghua> Fujitsu: have you checked the signature of the .dsc file?
[02:40] <Fujitsu> minghua: It's signed by somebody whe isn't a member of ubuntu{,-core}-dev. It's the signature on the .changes which is important, AFAIK.
[02:41] <Fujitsu> I've never heard of this person before...
[02:41] <minghua> Fujitsu: okay.
[02:41] <minghua> I don't really know how dak/soyuz works
[02:41] <Fujitsu> And the only package mentioned in any -changes is chemicalmime, and that's in ubuntu-changes-auto...
[02:41] <Fujitsu> The other packages have appeared from somewhere without any emails being generated.
[02:42] <minghua> but at least in debian all .dsc files should have the sponsor's signature
[02:42] <minghua> because they are supposed to build binary packages themselves
[02:43] <Fujitsu> Well, apparently not in Ubuntu.
[02:43] <minghua> and to be honest, I consider keeping source packages without an uploader's signature in archive a problem that should be fixed
[02:44] <Fujitsu> What I really don't get is that none of the original uploads appear to have generated emails...
[02:44] <minghua> what about asking on ubuntu-motu/ubuntu-devel?
[02:45] <minghua> or maybe asking in #ubuntu-devel first
[02:45] <minghua> you really need someone who knows how things used to work in the old days
[02:46] <Fujitsu> Yeah...
[02:46] <Fujitsu> I suppose it's possible that syncs from an external repository didn't generate emails in the pre-Soyuz days.
[02:49] <Burgundavia> any portugese speakers about?
[02:58] <nictuku> Burgundavia, yes
[02:58] <nictuku> Burgundavia, how can I help?
[02:58] <Burgundavia> nictuku: go something I think is spam
[02:59] <Burgundavia> "Prezado Colega, graas a um membro do grupo que me emprestou seu PC de reserva,"
[02:59] <nictuku> hmm if it's a spam, it's not obvious
[03:00] <Adri2000> Fujitsu: don't forget homebank :)
[03:00] <Fujitsu> Adri2000: I haven't forgotten it. There is still that license. issue to be sorted out.
[03:00] <Fujitsu> s/license\./license/
[03:00] <nictuku> Dear Colleage, thanks to a member of the group who lended me his backup PC, "
[03:01] <Burgundavia> interesting
[03:01] <Adri2000> Fujitsu: ok, but I already mailed upstream 10 days ago to say that I was going to package homebank for ubuntu, and no response yet :/
[03:02] <Fujitsu> Well, you'll just have to wait.
[03:03] <Adri2000> yep, waiting
[03:04] <minghua> motu group on LP is such a strange place...  Fujitsu is one of the only three non-administrator member in this 40-people team
[03:04] <Burgundavia> Adri2000: interesting, given his plea for packagers on the main site
[03:04] <Fujitsu> minghua: People stopped being added a while back, but I got added, but not adminned... It's a strange group.
[03:06] <minghua> Fujitsu: yes I heard that's a kind-of-non-functional group, but still a bit hilarious to see a 37-3 admin/non-admin ratio
[03:06] <minghua> reminds me some jokes about Chinese bureaucracy
[03:06] <Fujitsu> Hahah.
[05:00] <imbrandon> wakeup peeps
[05:00] <joejaxx> hello
[05:01] <LaserJock> imbrandon!
[05:01] <imbrandon> heya LaserJock
[05:01] <LaserJock> joejaxx!
[05:01] <joejaxx> hello :D
[05:01] <imbrandon> just got home ( well kinda , waiting at the airport for my ride )
[05:01] <imbrandon> heya joejaxx
[05:02] <imbrandon> joejaxx: if you dont mind i would like to see that script when/if you get it working oin the next days
[05:02] <StevenK> imbrandon: How was UDS?
[05:02] <Fujitsu> Hi imbrandon.
[05:02] <imbrandon> StevenK: it rocked, we got a ton done, and still had a ton to do too
[05:03] <imbrandon> heya Fujitsu
[05:03] <joejaxx> imbrandon: ok
[05:03] <imbrandon> plus i got pictures of jono dancing with a beer bottle for randsom :)
[05:03] <imbrandon> StevenK: ^^
[05:03] <joejaxx> imbrandon: lol
[05:03] <StevenK> Hah
[05:05] <StevenK> imbrandon: Find them on IRC and yell? :-P
[05:06] <imbrandon> lol
[05:06] <imbrandon> i called them 30 minutes ago and they said "on their way"
[05:07] <imbrandon> soooo shouldent be much longer, i'll just be glad to be HOME and not on my laptop all week, even though google rocked, i realy need to blog tonight about it
[05:07] <imbrandon> i'll do that once i get home from the airport
[05:08] <imbrandon> prepare for UberUbuCon too ( shhh i dident say anything /yet/ )
[05:08] <imbrandon> StevenK: ^^
[05:09] <StevenK> Heh
[05:09] <LaserJock> UberUbuCon?
[05:10] <LaserJock> I thought Ubucon was uber enough :/
[05:10] <LaserJock> ;-)
[05:10] <LaserJock> imbrandon: did they have ubuntu t-shirts at the end of UDS?
[05:10] <imbrandon> what /was/ UbuCon but bigger, canonical reprentation , diffrent location , lots of new stuff, it will be solidified soonish
[05:10] <imbrandon> LaserJock: no
[05:11] <imbrandon> LaserJock: just dinner where everyone got thrashed
[05:11] <LaserJock> mdz and Jane Silber hand delivered my ubuntu t-shirt at Ubucon so :p
[05:11] <imbrandon> i got some kubuntu t-shirts
[05:11] <imbrandon> but not ubuntu ones
[05:11] <imbrandon> and some edgy pressed cd's
[05:11] <LaserJock> who want's kubuntu t-shirts ;-)
[05:11] <LaserJock> ahh
[05:11] <LaserJock> I had hoped for some CDs
[05:12] <LaserJock> but didn't get around to asking Claire
[05:12] <imbrandon> i /think/ melissa grabbed what was left of the ubuntu edgy ones and i dunno about the kubuntu ones
[05:12] <imbrandon> you might ask her to send you a few, i only grabbed one of each flavor
[05:13] <LaserJock> yeah, I grabbed one of each in Paris
[05:13] <LaserJock> and then left then at my wife's cousins place
[05:13] <StevenK> Ahh, excellent. I can hit up Melissa for i386 and amd64 Edgy CDs.
[05:13] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:13] <LaserJock> the good news is he's now running Ubuntu on his laptop
[05:14] <LaserJock> so I guess it was worth it
[05:14] <imbrandon> StevenK: yea from what i seen she had the remaning edubuntu and ubuntu ones
[05:14] <LaserJock> nope
[05:14] <LaserJock> that burned me too
[05:14] <LaserJock> with dapper
[05:14] <Amaranth> damn timezones :P
[05:14] <LaserJock> oh whatever
[05:15] <imbrandon> minghua: yea thats only for the alternate ( and i beleave it says so on the download page )
[05:15] <LaserJock> it does
[05:15] <minghua> (but it really should be in release notes)
[05:16] <imbrandon> minghua: why , you download something without reading what version best suits you ? heh
[05:16] <LaserJock> well, with all the buzz around having a graphical installer
[05:16] <imbrandon> LaserJock: we should be getting arm buildd's too soonish , that was talked about after you left
[05:16] <LaserJock> it's sort of natural to think it'd work
[05:16] <imbrandon> for the ipod/nokia770 and other things
[05:16] <LaserJock> I see
[05:17] <imbrandon> and i think most of the ppa-restricted and system76 stuff all got worked out too
[05:17] <LaserJock> I think somebody should send me a nokia770 to test on :-)
[05:18] <imbrandon> hehe
[05:18] <LaserJock> imbrandon: did you talk to the System76 guys?
[05:18] <imbrandon> there was like 50 at the confrence ( and the nokia developers too , they are the ones buying the arm buildd's )
[05:18] <imbrandon> LaserJock: yea , for like 2 days in a row
[05:18] <joejaxx> edge*
[05:18] <LaserJock> imbrandon: excellent, what was the result of that?
[05:19] <minghua> hmm, anybody can point it to me where the LVM issue is written?  doesn't seem to be on http://www.ubuntu.com/products/GetUbuntu/download
[05:19] <minghua> (sorry for asking a support question :-P)
[05:19] <imbrandon> LaserJock: they are gonna sponsor a few systems too, they worked out with elmo about getting them to the DC
[05:19] <LaserJock> minghua: it's on the actual download pages
[05:19] <LaserJock> imbrandon: what type?
[05:20] <imbrandon> minghua: its not an "issue" its simply that its not supported on the desktop cd, and its on the download cd
[05:20] <imbrandon> err download page, not that
[05:20] <minghua> LaserJock: the url I posted have link to isos
[05:20] <imbrandon> page you pointed too
[05:20] <LaserJock> oh freaky, that's changed
[05:20] <lifeless> heya imbrandon
[05:20] <imbrandon> heya lifeless
[05:21] <imbrandon> lifeless: let me get home ( about 45 minutes ) and i'll up you
[05:21] <lifeless> imbrandon: no rush dude.
[05:21] <lifeless> (thanks though!)
[05:21] <minghua> imbrandon: I just can't see it
[05:21] <imbrandon> lifeless: hehe yea, just wanted to let you know i hadent forgot :)
[05:21] <LaserJock> the dapper pages have them
[05:21] <minghua> LaserJock: now we are talking...
[05:21] <LaserJock> the edgy links need to say it
[05:23] <LaserJock>  it just says: "alternative installation methods for OEM computers and computers with less than 192MB RAM"
[05:23] <LaserJock> for the edgy links
[05:23] <imbrandon> look at the download page for edgy http://releases.ubuntu.com/6.10/ , plainly listed in the alternate cd section
[05:23] <LaserJock> but www.ubuntu.com is wrong, or at least incomplete
[05:24] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: file a bug
[05:24] <imbrandon> maybe imcomplete
[05:24] <Burgundavia> mdke or myself will fix it, eventually
[05:24] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: yeah, was just thinking about that
[05:24] <imbrandon> heya Burgundavia
[05:25] <imbrandon> ok guys, see ya in a bit, my ride is here
[05:26] <Burgundavia> hey imbrandon
[05:26] <imbrandon> catch yall in a few
[05:27] <Burgundavia> http://thismight.be/offensive/2006/11/02/index.php?id=50
[05:27] <Burgundavia> $RANDOM_LINK
[05:28] <lifeless> worksafe ?
[05:28] <minghua> lifeless: yes
[05:29] <Burgundavia> lifeless: yes, but some of the other ones may not be
[05:29] <minghua> (if everybody gets the same link)
[05:29] <Burgundavia> yes they do
[05:29] <Burgundavia> tmbo does have NSFW pictures, so be warned
[05:30] <minghua> and I never really understood that comic
[05:30] <minghua> it's quoted everywhere, but nobody bothered to explain it :-(
[05:30] <joejaxx> wow the synaptic pad in feisty just failed
[05:31] <joejaxx> keyboard shortcuts ftw
[05:31] <joejaxx> :D
[05:31] <joejaxx> looks like it is edgy reinstall time
[05:32] <joejaxx> bbl
[05:33] <LaserJock> minghua: bug filed
[05:33] <minghua> LaserJock: subscribe me please? :-)
[05:33] <LaserJock> bug #71444
[05:33] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71444 in ubuntu-website "download page needs more info for Edgy alternate cds" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71444
[05:33] <minghua> thanks
[05:38] <Burgundavia> minghua: are there any other reasons?
[05:40] <minghua> Burgundavia: according to http://releases.ubuntu.com/6.10/ there are also "creating pre-configured OEM systems" and "setting up automated deployments", but I am not sure you want to put them there
[05:40] <Burgundavia> I think I do
[05:40] <minghua> but IMO two sets of download instructions are just very confusing
[05:41] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:42] <minghua> and http://www.ubuntu.com/products/GetUbuntu/download really overwhelmed me with it's mile-long list of mirrors
[05:42] <Burgundavia> I can edit the website, but cjwatson needs to edit the releases.u.c stuff
[05:42] <Burgundavia> and we need an auto mirror chooser
[05:43] <Burgundavia> we need a single "download" palce
[05:46] <Burgundavia> basically our downloads pages are confusing messes
[05:46] <Burgundavia> http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version <-- not much better
[05:47] <Burgundavia> ftp://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/6/i386/iso/ <-- ouch
[05:48] <Burgundavia> ok, MEPIS' sucks to
[05:48] <Burgundavia> too, rather
[05:49] <minghua> Fedora has a rather nice page for first-time visitors IMO: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6ReleaseSummary
[05:49] <Burgundavia> ubuntu.com/desktop
[05:51] <Burgundavia> that FC6 page isn't great
[05:51] <Burgundavia> download ISOs
[05:52] <Burgundavia> none of the top 10 DW distros have great downoad pages
[05:52] <Burgundavia> ours is probably the clearest
[05:52] <Laser_away> well, but on the other hand most don't have Desktop/Alternate distinctions do they?
[05:53] <Burgundavia> usually they get lost in techno babble land, with terms like ISO and torrent
[05:53] <minghua> does capitalized "away" mean "really away" these days? :-)
[05:53] <LaserAway> yeah
[05:53] <LaserAway> doh
[05:54] <Burgundavia> ok, thoughts
[05:54] <Burgundavia> the front page of Ubuntu.com has those desktop and server sections
[05:54] <Burgundavia> they currently have links that say "Information' and "Download"
[05:55] <Burgundavia> what about changing the information to "Discover"
[05:56] <minghua> Burgundavia: about the "ISO" and "torrent" usage -- I am not sure fedora people are targeting completely new linux users, so that may be fine
[05:56] <minghua> I personally think that's fine
[05:56] <Burgundavia> true
[05:56] <Burgundavia> but we are
[05:57] <minghua> on the other hand, I find "This type of CD is what most people will want to use" (desktop) very misleading to me
[05:58] <minghua> I am quite surprised to see using LVM are excluded from "most people" now
[05:58] <minghua> especially coming from Debian background
[05:58] <Burgundavia> LVM is not a normal setup
[05:58] <minghua> (which has been supporting LVM for years)
[05:59] <minghua> true, I am only saying "to me", doesn't mean it's not correct for the target audience
[05:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[05:59] <Burgundavia> but in the context of that notice, LVM is fringe
[06:00] <LaserJock> I think the bigger issue is upgrades
[06:00] <LaserJock> you can only use the Alternate disc for upgrades
[06:00] <lifeless> the automatic removal of lvm is disconcerting :)
[06:01] <minghua> I don't know others, but I am advocating LVM to every linux users I know in real life
[06:02] <lifeless> minghua: evms
[06:02] <lifeless> minghua: easier to use than lvm, though it needs love too. And we're heading for some slick evms support in fisty
[06:03] <minghua> lifeless: does that mean the default feisty kernel will support evms?
[06:04] <lifeless> minghua: the default edgy kernel supports evms
[06:04] <lifeless> minghua: as does dapper
[06:04] <minghua> anyway I think I'll stick to lvm though :-)
[06:04] <minghua> lifeless: oh sorry.  I am on debian now
[06:04] <lifeless> minghua: well, thats your problem :)
[06:05] <lifeless> you can upgrade easily though.
[06:05] <lifeless> evms in debian should work fine though
[06:06] <minghua> lifeless: oh really?  what does the description of your evms package on edgy say?  ;-)
[06:06] <minghua> I think that's your problem now, isn't it? :-P
[06:07] <lifeless> minghua: whatever drugs you are on, I want some
[06:07] <lifeless> apt-get install evms-ncurses; evmsn
[06:09] <minghua> lifeless: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/evms/2.5.5-18
[06:09] <minghua> "In order to make full use of it, you must use a kernel which includes the EVMS patch, available in the linux-patch-evms package."
[06:09] <minghua> lifeless: when people hear about a software they never heard of, they apt-get show it first, not apt-get install it
[06:10] <minghua> and I would have been turned down by that description completely
[06:10] <minghua> whether the kernel really support it or not is probably irrelevant
[06:11] <minghua> Or am I missing anything here?
[06:11] <joejaxx> i wonder why me downloading all of main never works :(
[06:15] <lifeless> minghua: the kernel has the patch in it
[06:16] <lifeless> well, I'm having network issues
[06:16] <lifeless> so will disappear soon.
[06:16] <lifeless> anyhow, the *ubuntu* kernel has evmsn in it, and I'm pretty sure the debian one does too.
[06:16] <lifeless> and has had for ages. File a bug on evms about the description if you like
[06:17] <minghua> lifeless: I said whether the kernel really support it is irrelevant
[06:17] <joejaxx> anyone know any other repository sync tools other than debmirror?
[06:17] <minghua> lifeless: and for now I can't care less about evms, so I won't bother filing a bug
[06:18] <lifeless> minghua: not really, I think you should assume that if something is packaged, everything it needs is already present and ready to go
[06:18] <lifeless> I think the reason tha tthe text is there in the package details is so that folk running their own kernel dont get into trouble
[06:18] <minghua> lifeless: I tend to believe in package description a lot
[06:19] <lifeless> joejaxx: rsync ?
[06:19] <joejaxx> lifeless: i only want main and restricted
[06:20] <joejaxx> i am going to have them on my laptop
[06:21] <StevenK> joejaxx: debmirror?
[06:21] <lifeless> joejaxx: oh, hmm, I dont know
[06:21] <joejaxx> StevenK: i use debmirror now
[06:21] <joejaxx> but it fails
[06:21] <minghua> lifeless: to be fair linux-patch-evm package says most recent kernel shouldn't need the patch, but I still think it's wrong for evms to mention that if the default shipped kernel doesn't need a patch
[06:21] <joejaxx> and i have to keep running it over and over
[06:21] <StevenK> joejaxx: The mirror you're pulling from is not up to snuff?
[06:22] <joejaxx> i am pulling from archive.ubuntu.com
[06:22] <StevenK> Odd.
[06:24] <lifeless> minghua: I disagree, its useful to make sure folk can run their own custom kernel safely
[06:24] <LaserJock> yeah, except I would have done the same thing "Ugg, I need a custom kernel, no thanks"
[06:24] <minghua> lifeless: no problem.  I am not an evms user, so my opinion is not important
[06:25] <lifeless> minghua: well, its not about evms per se, its about what information the package description should include.
[06:25] <lifeless> I think the evms package should note that the patch is required *if* a custom kerenel is being used.
[06:26] <minghua> lifeless: what I meant is we can agree to disagree.  If I maintain a package that needs kernel support, I won't mention it in the package description if the default kernel has the support
[06:26] <minghua> lifeless: I'll put the warning about custom kernel in README.Debian instead
[06:26] <lifeless> minghua: do you maintain any such packages today ?
[06:27] <minghua> lifeless: or maybe even do something special in the maintainer script to detect custom kernel / necessary kernel support
[06:27] <minghua> lifeless: no.  I've said my opinion is not important
[06:29] <lifeless> minghua: I'm not treating it as important or not. I'm trying to ensure that if/when you introduce such a package you supply what our users probably need.
[06:29] <minghua> lifeless: by "our users" you mean "ubuntu users"?
[06:29] <lifeless> no
[06:30] <minghua> then I disagree.  I expect debian users to read /usr/share/doc/<package>/README.Debian
[06:30] <lifeless> you have said you use debian, and I get the impression you are not a motu, rather you do debian development. So I'm meaning 'any user of the debian family of distributions'
[06:30] <minghua> and I also said, the best way is probably auto-detect the necessary kernel feature
[06:31] <minghua> lifeless: I am a MOTU.  I am also maintaining packages in Debian.
[06:31] <lifeless> putting it in th emaintainer script is not a good idea because the kernel can be upgraded/switched with no notification to your package.
[06:31] <lifeless> you could try to get some sort of run-parts .d directory for installation of kernel patches to allow you to check when  a kernel is installed but that will still fail to find locally built and not packaged kernels
[06:31] <minghua> lifeless: good point.  maybe a wrapper script for the binary then
[06:32] <minghua> I mean do run-time checking (if that is possible at all)
[06:32] <lifeless> i dont expect users of my packages to read README.Debian, even though I strive to make it useful.
[06:32] <minghua> lifeless: I do, for Debian users.  that's why I said we can agree to disagree
[06:33] <lifeless> minghua: that is only useful and sane if your package will not cause a boot failure when the kernel patch is missing
[06:33] <lifeless> minghua: you expect it, but, I'll take any social bet you like that < 10% of debian users *who are not contributors* even know that that file exists.
[06:34] <Simon80> indeed, I think if a message is that helpful, better to make it salient than to let users learn the hard way that they needed something
[06:34] <minghua> lifeless: and my opinion is that they deserve the boot failure.  it's not a very good attitude, I know.  but I am just annoyed by too many clueless users
[06:35] <Simon80> ok, see, if you're sociopathic like that, you shouldn't be making these decisions
[06:35] <Simon80> cause you're packaging for users, not for yourself
[06:35] <lifeless> minghua: its a pretty poor attitude ... "Our priorities are our users and free software
[06:35] <lifeless> "
[06:35] <minghua> the package I maintain has a 4.3K gzipped README.Debian by the way
[06:35] <lifeless> now thats my opinion :)
[06:36] <Simon80> thing is, there's no disadvantage to including a quick warning about something in the description
[06:36] <Simon80> even if it includes a recommendation to read README.debian
[06:37] <lifeless> minghua: I'm glad you write documentation; I think thats very important.
[06:37] <minghua> I still think if the default kernel supports the package well, it's not necessary to put the warning in the package description
[06:37] <minghua> but of course I see the point of the other side
[06:38] <Simon80> the other thing to do would be to ensure that there's a central place to read about maintaining a custom kernel in Ubuntu, and that it mentions these things to watch out for
[06:39] <minghua> and to be honest and blunt, if someone jump out and say: "your attitude is wrong, I'll maintain this package and be nicer to users", I think I'll be happy to give up the maintainership as long as he/she is technically competent
[06:39] <Simon80> well, you'll note that I didn't say I'd maintain it for you... I was talking about the decision
[06:40] <minghua> so lifeless, it's really not much point trying to persuade me, and I doubt you can :-)
[06:40] <Simon80> as in, some sort of have my cake and eat it too scenario where I give you my 2 cents but don't do any work ;)
[06:41] <minghua> Simon80: I am not maintaining any kernel-related package now, and not likely in near future, so for that part you can stop worrying :-)
[06:41] <Simon80> haha
[06:41] <lifeless> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/evms/+bug/71454
[06:41] <Simon80> I think the bottom line is that if users are going to benefit from the message being there, without it harming anyone else, it should be there
[06:41] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71454 in evms "package description is intimidating" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[06:41] <lifeless> gnight
[06:41] <minghua> for the packages I do maintain, I will treat such opinion more seriously if it comes with a patch to my package description
[06:42] <Simon80> night
[06:43] <minghua> lifeless: night
[06:43] <Simon80> I agree.. but at the same time it takes you less effort to produce a patch than them, they have to apt-get source the package... I suppose that's not huge, but I know I file less bugs because of the effort involved in filing
[06:44] <Simon80> and that's not to say I'm lazy, I've gone the other way and bistected a kernel issue
[06:44] <Simon80> turns out someone had figured out which commit it was already :(
[06:44] <Simon80> but I was afraid, it was in vanilla 2.6.18 and I didn't want the next release of ubuntu to make my computer unusable
[06:45] <Simon80> or release after next..
[06:45] <Simon80> to be clear, it was in both 18 and 17
[06:45] <Simon80> hence my saying the next release
[06:45] <minghua> Simon80: no, a new description is perfectly qualified as a patch
[06:46] <Simon80> fair enough
[06:46] <Simon80> I could do that
[06:46] <minghua> Simon80: it's basically "if I do the work I gets to make the decision" attitude, not a very nice one, but IMO a fair one
[06:47] <Simon80> err, you're condraticting yourself
[06:47] <Simon80> contradicting* lol
[06:47] <minghua> Simon80: how?
[06:47] <Simon80> I mean, what I take that to mean is, it's not a very nice attitude, but I can get away with it by claiming it's fair
[06:48] <minghua> Simon80: by fair I mean "if the other people have the same attitude, I am okay with that"
[06:48] <Simon80> you can go ahead and assert that you should make the decision if you maintain the package, but only if you think that's a "nice" attitude
[06:48] <Simon80> ah
[06:51] <minghua> Simon80: I still don't understand your last sentence
[06:51] <minghua> English is not my native language, so bear with me :-)
[06:52] <Simon80> oh, yeah, that is kind of unclear... I mean that if you don't think it's a nice attitude, don't adopt it
[06:52] <minghua> okay, s/nice/kind/, is that better?
[06:53] <Simon80> maybe
[06:53] <minghua> I really wanted to mean "not the best attitude one can have"
[06:54] <minghua> and I did use "very" :-)
[06:58] <Simon80> yeah, that's what I thought: if you don't think it's the best attitude, shouldn't you try to adopt a better one?
[07:03] <minghua> hmm, this is a bit off-topic, but since nobody else is talking here -- :-P
[07:03] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:03] <minghua> the problem is, I have this attitude so that I feel more comfortable
[07:04] <minghua> if I try to have the best attitude to every user, I put much more work and stress onto myself
[07:05] <minghua> and since I do package maintaining work in my free time, I want to do it in a way I feel comfortable
[07:06] <minghua> I am not a "sweet person" in real life either (hope that's the correct expression)
[07:06] <Simon80> I understand what you mean
[07:06] <minghua> now I'll shut up as Hobbsee is here :-P
[07:06] <Simon80> lol @ LaserJock
[07:06] <Simon80> haha
[07:07] <Simon80> yeah, seriously, perfect timing to miss the topic of conversation
[07:07] <Hobbsee> minghua: hah!   what was said?
[07:08] <Hobbsee> do tell :)
[07:08] <Simon80> pastebin it, lol
[07:08] <LaserJock> minghua: I know where you are coming from a little bit
[07:08] <Hobbsee> mind you, fabbione's bot will update soon - so you may as well pastebin it
[07:08] <minghua> Hobbsee: nothing, I was just kidding when mentioning you.  it's about my attitude to users of my package
[07:08] <LaserJock> you kinda gotta get a little jaded
[07:08] <Simon80> yeah
[07:09] <Simon80> he was just saying that if he maintains a package he reserves the right to make a decision about it even if users disagree... correct me if I'm wrong
[07:09] <minghua> get jaded?  sorry I don't understand that
[07:10] <Hobbsee> awww :(
[07:10] <Hobbsee> fair enough
[07:10] <minghua> Simon80: if _some_ users disagree, but yeah basically that's correct
[07:10] <crimsun> heh, one of the things I struggle with is not becoming jaded. This distro is user-driven, so I make a much more concerted effort to make sure the users come first.
[07:10] <Simon80> minghua: jaded would be pretty much what you said, equivalent to getting fed up
[07:10] <Simon80> with dealing with user concerns and what not
[07:11] <Simon80> I mean, I'm not saying that you don't care about users, lol
[07:11] <Simon80> I have foot in mouth disease
[07:11] <minghua> that must be a slang?  as dictionary.cambridge.org doesn't list jade as a verb
[07:11] <Simon80> no, it's not a verb
[07:11] <Simon80> it's an adjective - jaded
[07:11] <Simon80> like fed up
[07:12] <Simon80> nobody feeds you up or anything, lol
[07:12] <minghua> hmm so jaded has nothing to do with jade...
[07:12] <Hobbsee> correct
[07:12] <crimsun> it's a bit more long-term and hypercritical than simply being exasperated
[07:12] <Hobbsee> minghua: apart from the fact that you turn the colour of jade, when you're jaded :P
[07:12] <Hobbsee> minghua: where are you from?
[07:12] <minghua> Hobbsee: China
[07:13] <Hobbsee> minghua: oh yeah, right :)
[07:13] <Hobbsee> minghua: guess you would learn new words quite often thru here then - weird ones
[07:13] <Hobbsee> and some cursings :P
[07:13] <Simon80> lol
[07:14] <Simon80> I had to stop and think about that for a sec though
[07:14] <Hobbsee> they had no idea what it meant.  at which point i went.  uh...okay...damn
[07:15] <Simon80> fast fourier screwup
[07:15] <Hobbsee> haha
[07:15] <Hobbsee> yes. exactly.
[07:15] <Simon80> ......though chances are, that's the problem, there's so many TLAs that people try to guess something technical
[07:16] <minghua> Hobbsee: oh by the way, what does turning the color of green mean?  angry?
[07:17] <Hobbsee> minghua: um, usually jealous
[07:17] <Hobbsee> minghua: red is angry
[07:17] <minghua> as you see, Chinese use different colors of face when describe emotions
[07:17] <Hobbsee> like how fire looks angry, and that's red :P
[07:17] <Hobbsee> yeah, i vaguely remembered that they did
[07:18] <minghua> Hobbsee: and turning color of jade would be same as green, no?
[07:18] <Hobbsee> i was joking
[07:18] <Hobbsee> but presumably
[07:18] <minghua> good to know :-)
[07:18] <Hobbsee> jade is a blue-green colour
[07:18] <minghua> yeah, that part I know, we have plenty of jade stones in China :-)
[07:18] <Hobbsee> ahh :)
[07:19] <minghua> in Chinese angry is turning white I think
[07:19] <minghua> while jealousy is eyes turning green, not face
[07:20] <Hobbsee> minghua: here, turning white would be fearful/scared, i expect.
[07:21] <minghua> and face turning green means emaciated
[07:21] <Simon80> sick
[07:21] <minghua> yeah, scared is turning white too
[07:21] <minghua> let me do a little bit googling
[07:21] <Simon80> emaciated is "To make or become extremely thin, especially as a result of starvation."
[07:21] <Simon80> from the american heritage dictionary
[07:22] <Hobbsee> ahhh
[07:22] <Simon80> via thefreedictionary
[07:22] <minghua> I am really not sure about my Chinese any more after staying in US for five years...
[07:22] <Simon80> ah, you're not actually IN china right now
[07:22] <minghua> Simon80: true, I know what emaciated mean.  I should have said "face being green means emaciated"
[07:22] <Simon80> would you even be able to connect to this channel in there? I mean, that's too much free speech I would reckon
[07:23] <minghua> oh, we have plenty of free speech on IRC ;-)
[07:23] <Simon80> they don't mind that?
[07:23] <minghua> you just don't have free speech on national newspapers
[07:23] <Simon80> and I mean mind in both senses of the word, hehe
[07:23] <Simon80> ah
[07:24] <minghua> Simon80: and yes, we can connect abroad IRC servers just fine, there is even a #debian-zh channel here (although not everyone there are from China, it's really Debian _Chinese_, the language)
[07:25] <Simon80> yeah
[07:25] <Simon80> like, dealing with the chinese version of debian, not the chinese users
[07:26] <minghua> heh
[07:26] <Hobbsee> minghua: does that mean that you're free to use ubuntu/debian/whatever, no matter what the papers say?  or is it more censored than taht?
[07:27] <minghua> Hobbsee: what does the papers say?  you do realize that western news agencies have their propaganda too, don't you?
[07:28] <Simon80> yeah, for sure
[07:28] <Simon80> specially in the US
[07:28] <minghua> as for the computer operating system, yes, Chinese users are absolutely free to use whatever OS he/she likes
[07:28] <Hobbsee> minghua: no idea.  and quite likely
[07:28] <Hobbsee> minghua: no idea how bad it is in australia
[07:28] <Simon80> not that I'm saying it doesn't happen outside it, I just mean that if you're living there, chances are your perspective is formed mostly on the crazy politics that occur in the states
[07:29] <minghua> (sometimes even more free than western users, as China is infamous for its pirating versions of Windows :-P)
[07:29] <Hobbsee> haha ;D
[07:30] <Simon80> yeah, that's bad though, you still suffer from vendor lockin if you pirate it
[07:30] <Simon80> so really, those people are shooting themselves in the foot
[07:31] <Simon80> one of the saddest things to observe is government officials of some african countries vehemently shilling for microsoft
[07:31] <Simon80> like, very strongly taking their side
[07:31] <minghua> from what I see and hear, the only freedom Chinese citizens really need but don't have are two:
[07:32] <minghua> 1. to express the opinions, especially the one against what the government says, on public media
[07:32] <Burgundavia> can we take this very political topic elsewhere?
[07:32] <Burgundavia> like -offtopic?
[07:32] <minghua> 2. the right to sue/object the established law and government
[07:32] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: then again, i'ts hardly creating flames - if it's in -offtopic, it will
[07:32] <minghua> sure
[07:33] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: i'd be of the opinion that this is more of a "tell us what it's like, having been there yourself"
[07:33] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: it is also about the poor people having to parse teh logs
[07:33] <minghua> I am in -offtopic now if anyone wants to continue discussion
[07:33] <Hobbsee> true
[07:34] <Simon80> I'm not
[07:34] <Simon80> :)
[09:05] <Lutin> Hay
[09:55] <Burgundavia> ok, the forums scare me
[09:56] <crimsun> I was just musing that visiting www.videolan.org displays a prominent "Download Now for Ubuntu Linux" that references our universe repo, but then I realised the code probably checks the user agent
[09:58] <Burgundavia> try hacking your user agent string and see what happens
[09:59] <crimsun> I confirmed by using lynx :-)
[09:59] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:59] <crimsun> that's still pretty cool
[09:59] <Burgundavia> can we do arch detection with that?
[09:59] <Simon80> yes
[09:59] <Simon80> ...
[10:00] <Simon80> I may have spoke too soon
[10:00] <Simon80> no
[10:00] <Simon80> maybe
[10:00] <Simon80> I mean
[10:00] <Burgundavia> shucks
[10:00] <Simon80> bottom line is nevermind, I'm clueless, haha
[10:00] <Burgundavia> we need to figure out a better way to downloading Ubuntu
[10:00] <Burgundavia> a windows program that bundled an ISO burned would rock
[10:01] <Burgundavia> burner, rather
[10:01] <crimsun> it'd be awesome if Nvidia graphics cards included some such in their retail boxes
[10:01] <Simon80> you'd be able to maybe use mac os to say use ppc
[10:01] <Simon80> why nvidia cards?
[10:02] <crimsun> just a random musing from a few of the blogs on planet.uc
[10:02] <Simon80> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1) Gecko/20060601 Firefox/2.0 (Ubuntu-edgy)
[10:02] <Simon80> arch is there
[10:02] <crimsun> apparently there was an Nvidia demo or whatnot at the same time as UDS
[10:02] <Simon80> so yeah, we can do i386 and amd64
[10:02] <Simon80> and prolly ppc
[10:03] <Simon80> depending on the level of detail in those strings
[10:03] <Burgundavia> safari says PPC
[10:04] <Burgundavia> Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/418.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/419.3
[10:05] <Burgundavia> windows just says windows, but that is not an issue
[10:06] <Burgundavia> cool, that code is entirely js
[10:07] <Burgundavia> "Haha Mac OS 9 is dead! (if you\\\'re not using Mac OS 9 ... please write us a mail so we can fix this OS detection script)"
[10:25] <Burgundavia> anybody with a PPC or amd64 machine handy?
[11:34] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, I have an amd64 box - why ?
[11:36] <Burgundavia> can you go to ubuntu.ca/test.html
[11:36] <Burgundavia> what do you see?
[11:37] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, that I need to enable javascript first ;)
[11:37] <Burgundavia> right
[11:37] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, Download Now for x86
[11:37] <Burgundavia> is there a way I can catch that?
[11:37] <Yagisan> Download for Other Platforms
[11:38] <Burgundavia> hmm
[11:38] <Burgundavia> oh, wait
[11:38] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, you won't be  able to tell if javascript is disabled, so IIRC you make a static page, and have javascript rewite it
[11:39] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, that way you cater for the noscript users
[11:39] <Burgundavia> right
[11:39] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, I'd tell you how, but its been 4 years since I did www work, so I've forgotten how
[11:39] <Burgundavia> try now
[11:40] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, Download Now for amd64
[11:40] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, I'll test in Konq now
[11:40] <Burgundavia> perfect
[11:41] <Yagisan> works there too
[11:41] <Burgundavia> think I am ready for wider testing
[11:43] <Yagisan> Burgundavia, I see nothing in lynx
[11:44] <Burgundavia> lynx is not really a target audience
[11:44] <Burgundavia> likely doesn't do javascript
[11:45] <Yagisan> consider lynx your javascript disabled user, or blind users
[11:47] <Burgundavia> yep
[11:47] <Burgundavia> I wanted to test that bit of the code first
[11:47] <Burgundavia> now I am writing a production version
[11:48] <Yagisan> ah, the joys of google
[11:50] <Burgundavia> oh?'
[11:51] <Yagisan> looking for books on 'C' and get results for C#
[11:52] <Yagisan> google code search is certainly useful
[12:48] <palski> riivinrauta
[12:49] <palski> damn :)
[12:49] <Q-FUNK> vr paikka
[12:50] <palski> Q-FUNK: jep :)
[03:11] <bddebian> Heya gang
[04:20] <shawarma> I'm about to package a python module, but I'm a bit put off by the new policy, pycentral and python-support...  Is there a good beginner's guide to python packaging?
[04:25] <lastnode> shawarma, debian python policy?
[04:26] <shawarma> lastnode: yes
[04:26] <lastnode> shawarma, read that?
[04:26] <giskard> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy
[04:27] <suger> hello
[04:27] <giskard> you can find example on this page
[04:28] <shawarma> lastnode: Yes. Not very helpful, if you ask me. It's kind of like pointing people at Debian Policy to get them started on packaging.
[04:28] <shawarma> giskard: Now *that* looks useful.
[04:28] <shawarma> giskard: thank you.
[04:28] <lastnode> shawarma, what i meant was giskard's link, sorry if it wasn't clear enough
[04:28] <lastnode> :-)
[04:29] <shawarma> lastnode: Ah, ok. http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/   <--- that's the actual policy
[04:35] <lastnode> shawarma, yes, realized that's what shows up when you google for debian python policy. :-) sorry
[04:44] <Adri2000> phanatic: ping
[04:44] <phanatic> Adri2000: pong
[04:45] <Adri2000> phanatic: you saw that there is a new version of sysinfo?
[04:45] <phanatic> Adri2000: yeah, i was notified by upstream, but didn't have the time for it last week (university), but i'll have look at it today or tomorrow...
[04:46] <Adri2000> ok :)
[05:13] <Adri2000> anyone of the SRU team present?
[05:14] <siretart> Adri2000: depends...
[05:15] <siretart> ;)
[05:16] <Adri2000> siretart: I'm trying to fix the bug #56320, if it works what do you think about uploading it to edgy?
[05:16] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 56320 in webdeveloper "does not work with Firefox 2.0 beta" [Unknown,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/56320
[05:18] <bhale> i dont think we should be packaging extensions in general
[05:18] <Adri2000> but now it exists :p and it comes from debian
[05:21] <siretart> hm. it doesn't have any reverse build deps, nor any reverse deps
[05:22] <siretart> so it looks safe to me
[05:23] <siretart> Adri2000: do you think you find 5 tester who can confirm your package works?
[05:24] <Adri2000> yeah, I will try, but first it must work on my computer :p
[05:42] <phanatic> Adri2000: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3409
[05:43] <Adri2000> :)
[05:43] <phanatic> Adri2000: i had a couple of free minutes ;)
[06:24] <rvalles> hi hi
[06:25] <Adri2000> does someone know if the location of the firefox extensions have changed since firefox 2 ?
[06:26] <_plameni_> cuo sam da vam se mame satiru
[06:26] <_plameni_> od kurca
[06:28] <rvalles> Wesnoth needs updated packages (ubuntu has 1.1.8 -> beta, wesnoth is at 1.1.12 -> 1.2 rc2)
[06:28] <rvalles> more than anything else because they changed network stuff inbetween, network games <1.1.11 is broken against >=1.1.11
[06:47] <Sp4rKy> hi
[06:48] <Toadstool> 'morning everybody
[06:50] <Sp4rKy> hi Toadstool
[06:50] <Sp4rKy> how are you ?
[06:51] <Toadstool> hey Sp4rKy
[06:51] <Toadstool> i'm alright, you?
[06:55] <Sp4rKy> fine
[07:24] <Q-FUNK> Bug #71521
[07:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 71521 in upgrade-system "Could not install libc6_2.4-1ubuntu12_i386.deb" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71521
[07:24] <Q-FUNK> exactly how do users get that package hint?
[07:25] <Q-FUNK> I keep on getting bug reports against upgrade-system that are really mean for update-manager.
[07:25] <minghua> I believe users fill in the binary package hint themselves
[07:26] <Q-FUNK> in this particular case, the log that the user pasted explicitely stated to file a bug against update-manager.
[07:26] <minghua> something like "LP ask for the package name, user gives a binary package name, LP find out what source package generates that binary package, file the bug against the source package, and leave the user input as the package hint"
[07:27] <minghua> Q-FUNK: just reassign :-)
[07:27] <Q-FUNK> I get a few of these every week.
[07:27] <Q-FUNK> It's getting tiresome.
[07:34] <minghua> Q-FUNK: I have a possible theory...
[07:34] <minghua> Q-FUNK: go to https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/+package, choose ubuntu as distribution, click on the "Choose..." link on the package name line
[07:35] <minghua> Q-FUNK: type upgrade-manager in the pop-up window, nothing
[07:36] <minghua> Q-FUNK: user gets confused and try again with upgrade, this time there are three choices
[07:36] <Q-FUNK> update
[07:36] <Q-FUNK> it's update-manager
[07:36] <minghua> oh
[07:37] <Q-FUNK> mine is upgrade-system
[07:37] <minghua> d'oh
[07:37] <minghua> many user must think the same way as I do then :-P
[07:38] <Q-FUNK> all it requires is pasting the name of the package reported by the error log.
[07:38] <Q-FUNK> The upgrade aborts now. Please report this bug against the 'update-manager' package and include the files in /var/log/dist-upgrade/ in the bugreport.
[07:41] <minghua> but it's really easy to misread that as upgrad-manager...
[07:41] <minghua> :-P
[07:42] <Q-FUNK> I guess
[07:42] <Q-FUNK> hee, I let copy/paste do these things for me
[09:11] <Simon80> ah
[09:24] <pianoboy3333> What's in an orig.tar.gz?
[09:24] <Simon80> the original sources from upstream
[09:25] <pianoboy3333> with a debian folder...?
[09:25] <pianoboy3333> or just the source source
[09:26] <pygi> pianoboy3333, the original source from upstream means without debian :P
[09:26] <pianoboy3333> oh
[09:26] <pianoboy3333> right... I knew that
[09:26] <Simon80> unless upstream debianised it I guess?
[09:27] <Simon80> I mean, what if you're upstream and you wanna debianise it, should that go in your cvs and in orig?
[09:27] <giskard> we should not use upstream debian/
[09:27] <giskard> most of the time is really buggy
[09:28] <Simon80> hehe, yeah, but I mean, if _I'm_ in upstream, and I do it right, lol
[09:28] <pygi> giskard, unless someone really knows how to package it ;)
[09:28] <giskard> pygi, "most of the time" :)
[09:28] <pianoboy3333> well
[09:28] <pianoboy3333> I mean'
[09:28] <pygi> giskard, :P
[09:28] <pianoboy3333> if you uupdate a source from apt-get source, what should your orig be... the gunzip you uupdated with?
[09:29] <giskard> pianoboy3333,  dunno, i'd  not put in
[09:29] <pianoboy3333> not put what in?
[09:29] <Simon80> ..yeah
[09:29] <Simon80> I'd say yes?
[09:29] <pianoboy3333> ok
[09:29] <Simon80> but I've never used uupdate yet
[09:29] <Simon80> :)
[09:29] <pianoboy3333> really?
[09:29] <Simon80> yeah, I'm new here, haha
[09:29] <pianoboy3333> wow, you're 1337
[09:29] <Simon80> no, just fresh
[09:29] <Simon80> haven't done an upstream update yet
[09:29] <Simon80> only done one deb package
[09:30] <pianoboy3333> oh, lol
[09:30] <Simon80> I've done ebuilds
[09:30] <Simon80> and rpm, I made an upstream makefile target to generate rpm packages
[09:30] <pianoboy3333> I've never packaged anything for the universe... I come here for deb help
[09:30] <Simon80> yeah
[09:30] <pianoboy3333> I just package things for personal use
[09:30] <Simon80> ah
[09:30] <Simon80> need links to howtos?
[09:31] <pianoboy3333> no, no, I'm good with that stuff
[09:31] <Simon80> I mean, ubuntu howtos
[09:31] <pianoboy3333> ? for submitting stuff?
[09:31] <pianoboy3333> no thanks
[09:31] <Simon80> like, getting a gpg key into the strong set, REVU, yeah
[09:31] <pianoboy3333> the strong set?
[09:31] <Simon80> hehe, if you want to upload your own packages, you need a trusted gpg key
[09:32] <pianoboy3333> oh, right
[09:32] <pianoboy3333> I have a gpg...
[09:32] <pianoboy3333> I understand
[09:32] <Simon80> which means having someone with a trusted key signing your key after meeting you in person
[09:32] <pianoboy3333> if I everwanted to one day, there's stuff in yelp
[09:32] <Simon80> trusted = strong set of keys
[09:33] <pianoboy3333> right
[09:33] <pianoboy3333> I need bash help right now.... a config script failed... holy crap
[09:33] <Simon80> ....just look in config.log
[09:33] <Simon80> that's not bash, anyhow
[09:33] <Simon80> it's sh
[09:33] <Simon80> no point making a portability script in a nonportable shell right?
[09:34] <pianoboy3333> true...?
[09:34] <pianoboy3333> lol
[09:35] <pianoboy3333> Simon80: ./configure: line 9230: syntax error near unexpected token `;;'
[09:35] <pianoboy3333> ./configure: line 9230: `       ;;'
[09:35] <Simon80> oh, that's no good
[09:35] <pianoboy3333> yea....
[09:35] <Simon80> whose script is it?
[09:36] <pianoboy3333> clamav....
[09:37] <pianoboy3333> vers 0.88.6
[10:57] <superm1> hey, any MOTU's hanging around right now that feeling like a revu'ing mood :)?
[10:57] <pygi> superm1, I can help with advising, but I'm no MOTU
[10:58] <superm1> well I submitted ivtv-firmware to revu.  Its based off of the flash plugin installer in main, but set up to grab the ivtv firmware from ivtvdriver.org
[10:58] <minghua> ... flash plugin installer in main?
[10:59] <minghua> I thought it's in multiverse?
[10:59] <superm1> i thought it was in main.... there is a flash plugin installer
[10:59] <pygi> superm1, nah, multiverse
[10:59] <pygi> minghua, it is
[10:59] <superm1> oh well my bad then there
[10:59] <minghua> pygi: good, thanks
[10:59] <pygi> minghua, that would be a serious glitch :P
[10:59] <superm1> hehe
[10:59] <superm1> well nonetheless, its basically modified to fit grabbing the ivtv firmware and doing the same thing
[11:00] <pygi> superm1, then it's suitable only for multiverse
[11:00] <plugwash> btw what are the criteria for getting into ubuntus "restricted" section?
[11:01] <Burgundavia> plugwash: restricted is basically supported multiverse
[11:01] <Burgundavia> restricted means it is non-free yet also critical to the running of Ubuntu
[11:01] <Simon80> so, you're not getting in there
[11:01] <crimsun> usually that means hardware->kernel.
[11:01] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:01] <Burgundavia> drivers of all sorts live in restricted
[11:02] <superm1> well i was hoping to get ivtv into restricted eventually too
[11:03] <superm1> but it can live in multiverse for now
[11:03] <superm1> the license that ivtvdriver.org has doesnt allow the firmware itself to sit on our repos though
[11:03] <superm1> only on ivtvdriver.org and letting the user wget it
[11:03] <crimsun> then it can't enter restricted.
[11:03] <superm1> well not the firmware itself
[11:03] <superm1> but the ivtv driver can
[11:03] <superm1> right?
[11:03] <crimsun> does the driver function without the firmware?
[11:04] <superm1> it will load without the firmware
[11:04] <superm1> but it just wont capture video until you install it
[11:04] <crimsun> remember that restricted is distributed on CDs and thus must be redistributable from a Canonical-hosted server.
[11:05] <superm1> ivtv itself is GPL and shouldnt have any troubles with that
[11:05] <crimsun> if the driver is non-functional without the firmware, that kills its inclusion
[11:05] <superm1> there is an option though for the firmware to be redistributed still though if we wanted to host it.  the windows drivers are allowed to be redistributed, and the firmware can be extracted from them during the package build
[11:05] <Burgundavia> not really. Looki at bcm43xx
[11:07] <crimsun> does the native bcm43xx require firmware?
[11:08] <crimsun> err, not-included firmware, that is
[11:08] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:08] <superm1> well i thought it supplied a utility to take the firmware from windows drivers too
[11:08] <Burgundavia> that is what fwcutter is for
[11:08] <Burgundavia> apparently negotations with broadcom have gone nowhere
[11:08] <crimsun> hmm, isn't there a thread on this ivtv issue?
[11:08] <superm1> well i've been talking to axel thimm about it
[11:09] <crimsun> someone raised in on kernel-team@ a while ago iirc
[11:09] <crimsun> raised it^
[11:09] <superm1> he has been negotiating with hauppauge
[11:09] <superm1> about getting the firmware as redistributable
[11:09] <Simon80> thing with broadcom is that if linksys et al haven't released drivers for those chips, they're violating the gpl
[11:09] <superm1> but its going nowhere until conexant settles.  so for now he has a license to host it on his site for end user redistribution only
[11:12] <superm1> so then having a firmware installer sitting in multiverse like i have on revu - is this doable for now?
[11:14] <crimsun> a wget/curl thing? yes.
[11:14] <crimsun> cf. flashplugin-nonfree
[11:14] <crimsun> & msttcorefonts
[11:14] <superm1> yea just like that
[11:14] <superm1> i based it off flashplugin-nonfree
[11:15] <superm1> this is it: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3396