[12:10] if it worked [12:11] engla: whats the package [12:13] can you "subscribe" to a package in Debian's BTS? [12:14] yes [12:14] LaserJock: yes [12:14] use packages.qa.debian.org/ [12:14] to subscribe [12:15] http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch-resources.en.html#s-pkg-tracking-system [12:15] imbrandon: dragbox [12:16] v 0.2.3 [12:18] dragbox is not on REVU, so the upload dident work, did you have a REVU admin sync the keyring before you uploaded ? === minghua [n=minghua@ubuntu/member/minghua] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:19] imbrandon: nope [12:19] hmm, I seem to be able to kill xchat-gnome easily by clicking on urls in the topic [12:19] imbrandon: but dput told me it was successful. But I have the same suspicion you have [12:20] imbrandon: any admin here to ask? [12:20] ajmitch: sudo - revu1 revu-key update ? [12:20] engla: one sec, doing it now [12:20] thank you! [12:21] ajmitch: err sudo su - revu1 revu-key update === AlexMBas [n=alexandr@beigetower/alexandre] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:24] didn't we have universe freeze and beta freeze the same time in edgy? [12:24] minghua: xchat-gnome? [12:24] LaserJock: yes [12:24] why in the world are you using that? :-) [12:25] what's wrong with xchat-gnome? [12:25] because xchat crashes on exit often? [12:25] ubuntu used to set xchat-gnome as the default irc client IIRC [12:25] maybe's significantly improved [12:25] it was pretty nasty [12:26] i tried the dapper & edgy versions... it's still nasty [12:26] either way, bug #57951 annoys xchat users, cept those who compiled their own packages from the new upstream version [12:26] Malone bug 57951 in xchat "xchat crashes frequently on quit" [Undecided,Confirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/57951 [12:27] hmm [12:28] I've never had a problem with xchat :/ [12:28] hmm, well there's something trippy going on with alot of peoples edgy xchats [12:30] weird [12:31] xchat doesn't have any translations. not it bothers me, but one thing to consider [12:31] that's interesting [12:32] I must say I like Konversation quite a bit after using it for a while [12:32] yeah [12:32] i pulled debians 2.6.8 and built that. i seriously can't replicate the bug after alot of testing [12:32] but I still fell a little stupid to use a KDE app in GNOME === geser [n=michael@dialin107117.justdsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:33] minghua: you should try Edubuntu then ;-) === imbrandon hugs konversation === DarkMageZ hugs xchat from debian === dous_ [n=dous@124.107.250.123] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:34] nah. never used XFCE. don't think I can adjust to it soon. [12:34] minghua: Edubuntu is Gnome with KDE apps [12:35] minghua: :p [12:35] oh. I was thinking of Xubuntu. [12:35] isn't edubuntu for those educational centres of doom? [12:35] also called schools [12:35] not just schools [12:35] but yeah [12:36] what is the difference between Edubuntu and Ubuntu with kubuntu-desktop installed then? [12:36] ltsp and all the edu software === apokryphos [n=apokryph@87-194-86-227.bethere.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:36] ( kubuntu dosent ship kdeu-* ) [12:36] minghua: it's more like Ubuntu with KDEEdu installed on it [12:37] I see. but I don't need LTSP. [12:37] minghua: install workstation then [12:37] but anyway, night all [12:37] I think I can try KDE Edu stuff in Ubuntu just fine. But thanks for the explanations. [12:38] I have enough installation instances as is [12:38] minghua: I was just saying that because of your comment about running KDE apps on Gnome [12:38] LaserJock: I know. But that really has nothing to do with distro choice [12:38] I use GNOME everywhere [12:39] I'm just familiar with it and know my way around [12:39] but I wasn't saying anything about that [12:40] what should I can the Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu/Xubuntu difference if I can't call them different distros? [12:40] siretart: hello. Can you sync the revu keyring? thanks [12:40] generally they are called "flavors" or "partner projects" :-) === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:41] but you apparently missed my joke or something [12:41] I think I get it now. [12:41] ubuntu should arrange for a meeting place and a common name for 3rd-party (not supported) flavors. with a name that doesn't have -buntu in it [12:41] you are not really suggesting me to try Edubuntu, I suppose [12:41] no [12:42] I was merely pointing out that Edubuntu uses KDE apps on a Gnome desktop === RedKrieg [n=RedKrieg@ip68-10-83-27.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:42] minghua: you can call them different distros :). They are technically derivative distros [12:42] lifeless: are they really though? [12:42] LaserJock: yes, they all have their own goals and such [12:43] but they come from the same repos [12:43] LaserJock: and dont HAVE to follow the same rules [12:43] LaserJock: they are closer than many derivatives will be, [12:43] right they are close but still a derivtive === plugwash thinks it would be best to think of them as different default installs of the same distro [12:43] it's semantics I suppose, but I don't consider then derivatives [12:43] look at the fact like edubuntu dosent have a live cd, they dont HAVE to play by the same rules 100% [12:44] I think it's up to whether you call the whold ubuntu.com repo a distro or a meta-distro, then === lupine_85 [n=lupine@nick.lupine.me.uk] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:44] imbrandon: they do have a live cd and the are bound by the same ruls [12:44] they are still governed by Ubuntu [12:44] I personally prefer "flavor" [12:44] me too [12:44] not really, even if you look at specs like composite by default, that has -0- effect on kubuntu [12:44] so [12:45] and other such "rules" [12:45] that's not a rule [12:45] one problem with "flavor", though, is there is just no proper translation in Chinese [12:45] like if ubuntu went to dvd distro only kubuntu wouldent have to foloow and vice versa [12:45] they are still governed by the same body and come from the same repos [12:45] we are already stretching the language a bit when translating "distribution" :-( [12:45] that doesnt make them the same distro [12:45] that makes ubuntu a meta [12:46] that's why I say it's semantic [12:46] I think distro means it comes from different repos [12:46] if that is the case then you could call mepis a "flavor" as it ueses our repos and such ;) [12:46] no they don't [12:46] LaserJock: no [12:46] sure they do [12:46] mepis has there own additional repo [12:46] look at their sources.list [12:47] they "derive" from our repo [12:47] minghua: right but thats only for the config, not the software [12:47] LaserJock: your confusing repo and distro, they derive from our distro [12:47] imbrandon: still, their configuration is not supported by Debian/Ubuntu (what are they using now?) [12:47] I'm not confusing, I'm more like equating [12:47] which makes things a bit different [12:48] well equating wrongly , thus i used the word confusing [12:48] :) [12:48] the upload rights, governence, and pretty much everything else is identical [12:48] minghua: that makes them not supported by canonical yes, but dosent make them any farther from ubuntu than nubuntu or kubuntu [12:49] the only difference is the end .iso [12:49] and the goals , thats is the main thing for a distro, its path to the goal [12:49] the goals are the same [12:49] it's Ubuntu [12:49] imbrandon: if an upload in ubuntu breaks a KDE package, we should fix it, right? [12:49] no not 100%, they are very similar [12:50] imbrandon: not so if it breaks some mepis config, I suppose [12:50] minghua: that is a side effect of useing the same repo, not the same distro === plugwash [i=plugwash@p10link.net] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [12:50] imbrandon: you call it side effect, I call it a main difference, I think we can agree to disagree then [12:51] point being that even canonical them self says they are derivtives , thus diffrent distros [12:51] I don't really mind the terminology (meta-distro/distro or distro/flavor), but I think the ubuntu-kubuntu connection is much more tight [12:51] imbrandon: I'm not sure that they do, they call them "partner projects" [12:51] compared with other derivative relationships [12:51] yes very tight, but that still doesnet make them the same [12:52] well no, we never said they were the same [12:52] they are obviously different [12:52] no point to argue about semantics, I think [12:52] http://www.ubuntu.com/download/derivatives [12:52] LaserJock: ^^ [12:53] they are all deritives, just some are "supported" by canonical [12:53] well whatever [12:53] I don't call them derivatives [12:53] because I don't feel that they are [12:53] that's fine [12:53] i was just pointing out what you said canonical say they didnet :) [12:53] but they do [12:54] ( along with the long list of others ) [12:54] well, Canonical people have told me that they aren't using that term [12:54] but I don't know [12:54] heheh someone should inform the webmaster then :) [12:55] I suppose not everyone has the same opinion inside canonical [12:55] probably not [12:55] well, it's not an easy thing to do [12:55] just as we dont, it dosent make any of us wrong, thats the good thing [12:55] "derivative" is the common word [12:55] but Ubuntu is a bit unique in this respect [12:56] well if its ubuntu but not the "offical" ubuntu that ships on the cd it was then derived from it , thus a dirvitive [12:56] just as ubuntu is derived from debian [12:56] even though we share ALOT of packages [12:56] well, but it's all Ubuntu [12:56] and it's broken down into various "flavors" [12:57] no its not anymore ubuntu and ubuntu is debian [12:57] s/and/than [12:57] what the heck? [12:57] ubuntu shares over 10k packages unmodified from debian , does that make us a debian "flavor" [12:57] no [12:57] becuase we have seperate repos [12:57] seperate governence [12:58] seperate lots of things [12:58] again a repo dosent make a distro, look at lfs and gentoo, there is no REPO [12:58] I'm not saying it's *just* the repo [12:58] how many of the packages in the default install are pure debian syncs? [12:58] but that is a significant thing [12:58] so does edubuntu and kubuntu each have their own CC, but answer to the CC [12:58] yes [12:58] the CC and TB are the ultimate governence [12:59] engla: depends on the flavor/distro your default install is :-P [12:59] so they essentialy have diffrent governace too [12:59] hell no === AlexMBas [n=alexandr@beigetower/alexandre] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:59] engla: but I'll estimate 30% for ubuntu, just a wild guess though [12:59] the Ubuntu CC has deligated to team CCs [12:59] ok, just interesting [12:59] that's completely different then Debian/Ubuntu [12:59] sure, the only time the CC steps in is if it affect ubuntu , if it only effects kubuntu then they have no say [12:59] no [01:00] sure, i sat in on the BoF for all the deligated CC teams , thats exactly what happens [01:00] the CC has no say if it affects kubuntu? that completely wrong [01:00] no i dident say that [01:01] "if it only effects kubuntu then they have no say" === rendhalver [n=rendhalv@58.105.241.159] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:01] i said if KCC makes a decession , the CC dosent ovride that unless it effects ubuntu [01:01] that's wrong too [01:01] they *can* [01:01] howso ? [01:01] they choose not to [01:01] no they cant, not as part of their promis to the community [01:02] where are you getting this? [01:02] imbrandon: no admins seem to be here, nonidling [01:02] I was at the BOFs [01:02] LaserJock: mostly from the BoF's and prior CC meetigs from memory [01:02] that last part from marks mouth [01:02] they CC and TB have ultimate authority, period [01:03] s/they/the/ [01:03] well, if you discount mark's veto ;-) [01:03] right but they have limits too [01:03] only that they make themselves [01:03] right and have done so [01:03] fine [01:03] they could also take that away [01:03] it wouldn't be nice, but they could [01:04] because they are the higher governing body [01:04] not without breaking a promis to the community that would cause chaos [01:04] all delegations of power can be revoked [01:04] ajmitch: not the deligation [01:04] imbrandon: if it were absolutely necessary, it would be done [01:04] what I'm trying to say is that the CC and KCC are not equal [01:04] LaserJock: i never said they were [01:04] the CC may delegate to the KCC [01:05] zomg you are missing the whole point now [01:05] but I'm trying to say that it is not like Debian/Ubuntu [01:05] its not, but that dosent make it and less a deritive [01:05] Debian and Ubuntu have different "sovergn" governing bodies [01:05] and thats the whole point [01:05] I think that is part of what makes a derivative [01:05] they they can take their ball & go home when they see fit? [01:05] ajmitch: hello. Can you sync the revu keyring? thank you [01:05] governence, upload rights, and repos are a big part [01:06] I can upload Kubuntu packages in Universe if I want [01:06] because my upload rights are to Universe [01:06] not in what makes a distro, look at the overall picture here, your looking at ubuntu / debian only === gnomefreak cant remember where i read this (it was a day or two ago) kubuntu/x/ed are not derivatives of ubuntu they are part of ubuntu [01:06] engla: already doing it [01:07] lfs has no repo, or upload rights, same with slax , gentoo , suse etc etc etc etc , those qualities are for us only [01:07] thus cannot detrrmine a distro [01:07] imbrandon: not only, but give me another derivative where they derivative shares governence, repos, uploadrights [01:07] s/they/the/ [01:07] LaserJock: the multitude of debian deritives [01:07] no [01:07] all the LFS deritives [01:07] BLFS etc [01:08] there are others [01:08] again you have to look at the whole [01:08] well, I'm not sure about LFS [01:08] I am [01:08] what makes a distro , not the inner workings [01:08] ajmitch: great thanks [01:08] what makes a distro, IMO, is the governence, repos/uploadrights [01:09] right and like i said those are ubuntu only qualities, so what makes gentoo diffrent from fedora [01:09] synced now [01:09] governence, uploadrights, repos [01:09] thks [01:09] same things [01:09] if I were to make a derivative of Gentoo today [01:09] if you look at what makes ubuntu diffrent from debian ( not the inner workings )( and what makes gentoo diffrent from suse, ubuntu and kubuntu share the same diffrences [01:10] will they let me commit an ebuild to their repo? [01:10] sure [01:10] umm, no [01:10] if you set it up that way [01:10] exactly [01:10] but in order to do it [01:10] why not? i can commit to debian and redhat [01:10] I would have to become a part of gentoo [01:10] and fall under it's rules [01:10] it's policies [01:10] it's governence [01:10] so with that thinking every DD in ubuntu isnt really a ubuntu person ? [01:11] no [01:11] ? [01:11] why would I think that? [01:11] like i said step away from the inner working s of how the distro is made, what makes suse diffrent from gentoo? === jonh_wendell [n=wendell@39-88-199-200.vcnet.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:11] you will find those same diffrences in kubuntun and ubuntu [01:11] THATS what makes a deritive [01:11] not most of them [01:12] I'm not saying kubuntu and ubuntu are the same [01:12] it dosent take most, it only takes 1 [01:12] no [01:12] to be derived from the original [01:12] I disagree [01:12] so i can change something in ubuntu and call it ubuntnu ? and not a ubuntu deritive ? [01:13] ubuntnu is not whats in the repo, its whats on the CD [01:13] there is alot more than whats ubuntu in the repo [01:13] infact alot of the repo is debian [01:13] sure [01:13] Ubuntu is a Debian derivative [01:13] so it share quite a bit of the same software [01:14] exactly, and if i take a ubuntu cd and chage the wallpaper on it, it then becomes a deritive, no matter how small the change [01:14] I wouldn't call that a derivative if it was done in the Ubuntu repos [01:14] ubuntu is NOT whats in the repo, its whats on the CD [01:14] i beg to differ :-) [01:15] heh fight fight fight [01:15] ;-) [01:15] so i can hand you a kubuntu cd and tell you to install ubuntnu ? [01:15] that makes -0- sense [01:15] ubuntnu? [01:15] i might as well hand you a gentoo cd and say install kubuntu [01:15] typo [01:15] oh, then yes [01:16] I run Edubuntu and Kubuntu on my machine [01:16] I didn't use 2 discs [01:16] no it shares alot of the same software ( as does ubuntu and debian ) but is not the same end product [01:16] there are different products for sure [01:16] then what do ytou call two products based on the same software ? deritives [01:17] but in the same way a company can produces different products I don't think it's a stretch to say that a single distro can produce multiple products [01:17] many distros have various "flavors" [01:17] different .isos [01:17] a flavor is a deritive by definition [01:17] based on the same thing but diffrent [01:18] it depends on how you look at it [01:18] which brings us here :-) [01:18] I think of derivative is a seperate linear progression [01:18] right, maybe to the same goal , mabye not, but still derived from the same source [01:18] whereas a flavor is variation within a single "thing" === jonh_wendell [n=wendell@39-88-199-200.vcnet.com.br] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Bye"] [01:19] dosent mean the paths are the same [01:19] yeah [01:19] I'll go with you there [01:19] my point for this is: [01:19] so you just said by your own definition that kubuntu is a deritive [01:19] I was calling *buntu derivatives [01:19] but I realized that we really should have a distinction [01:20] between a Debian/Ubuntu type derivative and a Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu/* kind of derivative [01:20] as there are important distinctions we need to make as a project [01:20] they are, they share the same base , and very very similar goals , but not the same path to get there, thus are derived from the base [01:20] sure [01:21] all I'm arguing is semantics and how we bring this to the public [01:22] an issue I see all the time is people saying "all this *buntu, it's so harmful to Linux" [01:22] well i think your trying to change the meaning of the word deritive, we shouldent do that as a project, they are by definition both deritives, BUT if you think as a project we should use another distinction then i'll bite [01:22] right, that's why I said, I call it a flavor [01:22] well flavor is even worse [01:22] heh [01:23] technically they can be called derivatives [01:23] I think flavor is closer, although not perfect [01:23] because we're then a "flavor" of linux [01:23] not ubuntu or debian [01:23] ajmitch: my first upload doesn't appear on revu, but now even after the keychain sync, It says it can't upload the files (says probably they are already there) does that mean problems, or will the package dragbox be processed? [01:23] flavor is broader, but essential the same arguemnt [01:24] engla: remove the .upload fiel from that dir and try again [01:24] file* [01:24] imbrandon: it's not that [01:24] well, I think of derivative as a definate split (different communities, different governence, etc.) [01:24] it's a ftp error 553, so it's in the remote end [01:24] and flavors as different packaging === imbrandon hugs LaserJock === LaserJock hugs imbrandon [01:24] you know I love you dude ;-) [01:25] engla: please make sure you upload source-only packages in future [01:25] heheh [01:25] ajmitch: okay. I didn't expect it to include the .deb, so I didn't know. I'll remember [01:26] engla: the wiki tells you to upload the buld that uses -S -sa ( source only upload ) [01:27] oh well. I had the correct file set, but one file too many. sure. But I didn't expect it to grab the binary file. After all, I didn't tell it to grab it, I only pointed it to the .dsc [01:28] ajmitch: btw , lrm and friends are installable now [01:37] imbrandon: coolio === lastnode [n=lastnode@unaffiliated/mahangu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:40] hola compadres! [01:44] hey nixternal [01:46] hiya lastnode === nixternal needs food === rmjb [n=richard@cuscon20834.tstt.net.tt] has joined #ubuntu-motu === hub [n=hub@toronto-hs-216-138-231-194.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mnepton [n=mneptok@mneptok.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:07] hey guys, your advice [02:07] for a vm for testing of packages, vmware or xen? === lastnode [n=lastnode@unaffiliated/mahangu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:08] depends on what you run im partial to xen myself === engla [n=ulrik@wikipedia/Sverdrup] has left #ubuntu-motu [] === rendhalver is back [02:09] the main thing I'll want to do it to be able to revert to a fresh install, can do that in vmware with snapshots, xen has anything like that? === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-motu === rytmisk [n=irc@155.143.139.95] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:18] i have never used it but i would also go with what you have experience with === superjon [n=jeff@office4.tmcs.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:19] How do you add the $Id: line in a file under svn? Is that autogenerated somehow via macro expansion or something? [02:19] zul: yeah, I figure I'll stick with the vmware for now... maybe by feisty's time I'll be comfortable with xen [02:21] imbrandon: debian 398666 [02:21] Debian bug 398666 in flashplugin-nonfree "flashplugin-nonfree: download or license refused" [Grave,Closed] http://bugs.debian.org/398666 [02:21] imbrandon: which debconf interface is that install using? [02:22] StevenK: thanks. [02:22] gnomefreak: yes [02:22] superjon, don't believe svn will do that for you. It's not CVS. See http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ . [02:23] fbond: So how does that line get generated for files that are under version control like cvs [02:24] Not sure. Never used CVS. [02:24] I think it comes from rcs or something [02:24] The text manipulation isn't complicated. [02:25] What are you looking for? [02:25] maybe you want #svn === lifepositive [i=truth@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x0F865BCC] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:26] superjon: it will get auto-generated if you tell svn to [02:27] minghua, how does one tell svn to do that? been using svn for a while, didn't know that was a possibility. [02:27] anyone here good with rsync? [02:27] joejaxx: What are you wanting to know ? [02:28] chron_: i need to know how to rsync a file off a remote server to the local directory [02:28] minghua, at least, svn won't do $Revision [02:28] without useing -e ssh [02:28] using* [02:29] rsync -avze ssh --delete user@domain.com:/some/path/on/server /your/path/here [02:29] fbond: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.2/svn.advanced.props.html#svn.advanced.props.special.keywords [02:29] I'd leve out the --delete at first til you know what you want is right [02:30] fbond: and according to that page it does $Revision$ [02:30] Hawkwind: without using ssh [02:30] (unless you are using a different version of svn, I remember the accepted keywords changed somehow) [02:30] minghua, ah, just found that myself. sorry. [02:31] joejaxx: rsync -rltvHz rsync://domain.com/some/path/on/server /your/path/here === joejaxx tries it [02:31] joejaxx: Need to make sure port 873 is opened/forwarded and /etc/rsyncd.conf is setup correctly [02:31] uh [02:31] rsync and xinetd both need to be running, since rsync is a process of xinetd [02:32] Hawkwind: does rsyncd run on ubuntu by default? [02:32] joejaxx: AFAIK it doesn't === lastnode [n=lastnode@unaffiliated/mahangu] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:32] Hawkwind: i need rsync to act like wget really [02:32] joejaxx: I don't run an rsync server on my *Ubuntu box though. It's all done on Mandriva [02:33] ubuntu shouldn't run any server be default [02:33] Hawkwind: i can rsync local directories fine [02:33] joejaxx: rsync is actually very very simple [02:33] Hawkwind: i need to rsync an iso from one remote webserver to local [02:33] Hawkwind: but the remote does not run rsyncd [02:33] Hawkwind: should i just use wget? [02:33] joejaxx: It has to or you are forced to use ssh [02:34] joejaxx: Which was the first command I gave you [02:34] Hawkwind: oh ok [02:34] i thought so but i was not sure === rpedro [n=rpedro@87-196-65-125.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:34] I do most all of my rsyncs with ssh, makes life easier [02:34] how does rsync work locally then without rsyncd? [02:34] Locally it doesn't need anything, because it's local [02:34]