/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/11/23/#ubuntu-kernel.txt

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=== kylem thwaps zul.
kylemBenC, what's the ubuntu firmware policy? (specifically the qlogic firmware for qla2xxx)01:35
mjg59What aspect of the policy?01:35
BenCif they will let us redistribute it, we stick it into the kernel01:35
BenCunder debian/firmware/01:36
kylemwell, you can optionally build the firmware in, but the recommended thing to do is load it from userspace.01:36
kylem(recommended by the driver authors)01:36
BenCif redistribution is "everyone does it, and the vendor says it doesn't care, but we have no real license", then it goes in lrm01:36
kylemdrivers/scsi/qla2xxx/Kconfig, there was a bug report to turn on QLA_FC in edgy kernel, zul submitted a patch, but neglected to frob the other options...01:36
BenCe.g. acx is in lrm, ipw3945 is in main kernel01:37
mjg59Oh, right01:37
kylemthis is the tg3 style firmware, a static char[]  array01:37
mjg59kylem: If it's recommended to load from userspace, then do that01:37
BenCyeah, definitely01:37
mjg59kylem: But it'll want an initramfs-tools tweak to make sure it's copied into the initramfs01:37
kylemyeah, except then you can't easily boot of it...01:37
mjg59We handle firmware loading from initramfs01:38
BenCinfinity: ping01:38
infinitypong01:38
BenCinfinity: I need a initramfs-tools update soonish so I can have pata_* drivers working01:38
BenCcan I do a quick upload just for this, or do you have larger plans?01:38
infinityBenC: Go hard.  I have notihng interesting pending.01:39
BenCok01:39
BenCis this one of those uploads that falls into the category of "cjwatson will kill me if I don't follow some policy"?01:39
infinitypata_* == libata PATA drivers?01:40
mjg59initramfs-tools is fine01:40
mjg59Just don't screw it up01:40
BenCinfinity: Yeah01:40
mjg59Oh, uh.01:40
infinityYeah, leave my system unbootable, and I'll curse your name, otherwise it's all good.01:40
mjg59Is there any HPA handling code in libata yet?01:40
mjg59And if not, do HPAs default to being enabled or disabled?01:40
BenCmjg59: good question01:40
mjg59Because that'll, like, kill people who've wiped their Thinkpad rescue partition but didn't disable the HPA in the BIOS01:41
BenCI only enabled the pata drivers that were not exp.01:41
mjg59This is ata_piix01:41
BenClet me check that one01:41
mjg59Given that the "fix" is a simple BIOS tweak, it's not a real issue01:42
mjg59But it needs to be flagged as a blocker until we fix it01:42
mjg59It's like 3 lines of code01:42
BenCok01:42
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BenCinfinity: Oooh, copy_modules_dir made my job easy03:07
BenCata) copy_modules_dir kernel/drivers/ata;;03:08
BenCI wonder if it's a good idea to do that for scsi too03:09
BenCand ide03:09
infinityIf that now works for everything we want, then hells yes.03:10
BenCI'll test it on all my machines before uploading03:13
BenCI added an "ata" for the auto load list, since pata/sata are now all in drivers/ata03:13
BenCand I know for sure that ide and scsi module lists are outdated anyway03:13
infinityThey get old fast, yeah.03:16
BenCmy concern now is initrd size03:31
infinityOh, are we including all the old ide drivers AND the new pata ones?03:32
infinityI guess that could get somewhat bigger.03:32
infinityThough we're building 'em bloated anyway... *shrug*03:32
BenCno, I disabled the ide drivers that were replaced by the IDE ones03:32
BenCabout 500k size increase with the copy_modules_dir {ata,scsi,ide} as opposed to the old method03:33
infinityOh, kernel/drivers/ata/ is tiny, don't worry about it.03:33
BenCerr, replaced by the pata ones03:33
infinityWell, "tiny" compared to my 6.3MB initrd.03:33
BenCI think the additional scsi drivers caused the size increase03:33
BenCI know there's more than what's in that list03:33
infinityYeah, you may have added some.03:33
infinity*shrug*03:34
infinityscsi is definitely the big one.03:35
infinityNot much we can do about that.03:35
infinityAlthough, do we really still need two aic7xxx drivers?03:36
BenCI don't think they overlap03:37
kylemBenC, any idea why qla2xxx/qla fiber channel is off in edgy/feisty kernels? (or was it just an oversight when it changed from being CONFIG_SCSI_QLA2XXX)03:37
infinityWe never included _old in our initrds, and I've not had a complaint.03:37
infinityThat may be telling.03:38
BenCinfinity: _old doesn't even have a dev table03:39
BenCmaybe I can just disable it03:39
BenCkylem: perhaps, let me check03:39
infinityBenC: It's not referenced/loaded from the new aic7xxx driver on the fly when old hardware is encountered, or something equally GNAH?!03:41
infinityBenC: With no dev table, I'm curious as to why it's there at all. :)03:41
BenCinfinity: My thoughts exactly, unless it's one of those weird platform drivers :)03:42
BenCprobably can be disabled03:42
BenCkylem: My guess is it's an oversight03:43
infinityCould be one of those "this driver is the only one that works on Alpha, cause the other one needs some cleaning up" cases, or something, but as (like I said) we've not once had a complaint about it not being in our initrds, I somehow doubt any of our users care.03:43
kylemBenC, ok, i've turned it back on in edgy-updates.03:43
kylemon all but parisc, since it will likely fail there anyway.03:44
BenCI'll enable it in feisty03:44
BenCand get the firmware03:44
infinitykylem: There is no edgy/hppa.03:44
kyleminfinity, that too.03:44
kylemaic7xxx_old.c gets the puke-o-rama of the day award.03:44
infinity(So no point in caring if a change will or won't biuld there)03:44
BenCI wish we had someone with canonical that knew hppa03:44
BenCoh wait03:44
=== BenC looks around
=== kylem runs.
kylemlet me finish ATs first...03:45
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infinityWould I get fired for proposing that feisty+1 be a parisc-only release, and we drop all the boring arches?03:46
infinity"Everyone else is doing these ones anyway, we want to stick out and be unique!"03:46
BenChehe03:46
=== kylem wants some of intels new ia64 kit. my apartment is electric heated anyway....
infinityWe could get lamont involved and ship a C200 with every shipit CD.03:47
mjg59Oh. My. Christ.03:47
BenCmight as well stick "sh" in there as well03:47
mjg59Look at aic7xxx_detect in aic7xxx_old.c03:47
infinityBenC: Harder to get our hands on stacks of Dreamcasts.03:47
kylemmjg59, it's love.03:47
infinity(Well, actually, DCs are easy to come by, it's the ethernet adapter that's rarer than kyle's sobriety)03:47
lamontinfinity: heh03:48
kylemmjg59, would you rather hack that or acpi?03:48
kyleminfinity, hey, i've not had a drink since boatnight. :)03:48
infinitykylem: Been ill? ;)03:48
kylemand even then, i was sick enough without alcohol03:48
mjg59ACPI03:48
BenCmjg59: holy shit, it's like half the code in there03:48
mjg59pci_find_device!!!03:48
mjg59Yeah. Uhm.03:49
mjg59I think we don't support that driver.03:49
infinityOh, is aic7xxx_old one of those really, really old drivers that does all the PCI legwork itself still?03:49
kyleminfinity, yes.03:49
kylemthe driver appears to be older than i am.03:49
mjg59!03:49
infinityI thought those were purged from the tree long ago, for fear of setting a bad example for future generations.03:49
mjg59        if ( i == 0 ) /* We found one, but it's the 7810 RAID cont. */03:49
ajmitchmaybe it scared too many people away from cleaning up03:49
mjg59Is entirely dependent upon the 7810 being the first entry in the array03:50
mjg59This isn't mentioned in the array itself03:50
kylemajmitch, better to dust off and nuke the driver from orbit... it's the only way to be sure.03:50
mjg59It supports VLB03:50
mjg59Which aic7xxx might not03:50
mjg59But, erm.03:50
infinitymjg59: And as scary as all that is, I recall the old aic7xxx driver (before it was rewritten) being a stellarly stable and useful driver, a paragon of hardware vendor involvement for the greater good.03:50
kylemfuck VLB.03:51
infinityI think our standards must have been lower back then.  Where "back then" was, what, the 60s?03:51
mjg59The 1860s?03:51
zulhey03:52
zuljust popping by and will be off soon03:52
ajmitchevening zul 03:53
BenCok, let's reboot and see how this new initramfs did03:56
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BenCall is well, initramfs-tools uploaded04:04
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BenCIs "" a legitimate SSID?05:00
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KnowledgEngihello05:43
KnowledgEngisudo apt-get install linux-tree05:43
KnowledgEngiwhy apt do not find linux-tree05:43
KnowledgEngi??05:43
KnowledgEngihttp://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/CompilazioneKernel?highlight=%28kernel%2905:43
KnowledgEngii'm using this how-to05:44
infinitys/linux-tree/linux-source/05:45
infinityThough that howto is pretty sketchy.  Doing all that as root is pointless.05:46
BenCanything not listed directly in the URL above is pretty much unsupported and probably broken05:46
BenCs/above/in the topic/05:46
KnowledgEngii whant just to change the cpu timer frequency 05:49
KnowledgEngii need only this modific05:49
KnowledgEngithe rest under ubuntu work very good05:49
BenCthe above URL has a link to a howto for rebuilding the ubuntu kernel properly with small config changes like what you want05:50
KnowledgEngiThis is a bad bear. Use it, but there are still a few missing modules.05:52
KnowledgEngifor this argoment i do not whant use a different kernel version05:52
KnowledgEngihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild?highlight=%28CategoryKernel%2905:57
KnowledgEngithis page???05:57
infinityWhy can't we influence the timer on the command line anyway?05:57
KnowledgEngii do not know05:58
KnowledgEngii know that yesterday i has solved the problem rebuilding the kernel05:58
BenCinfinity: Hardcoded into a lot of macros05:58
KnowledgEngii was using a software for musician05:59
KnowledgEngithat need a low-latency kernel05:59
infinityBenC: Well, yes, I was fairly sure that was the answer, it was more of a "can't this be fixed?" thing.05:59
kylemway more efficient for it to be an immediate than to constantly reload from memory... 05:59
infinitykylem: And yes, that's the "why".05:59
fabbionemorning05:59
BenChey fabbione05:59
fabbioneKnowledgEngi: yes i am italian but please don't /msg me just for that :)05:59
fabbioneBenC: just saw your initramfs upload. thanks06:00
KnowledgEngii'm italian too06:00
fabbionewill test once it's in the local mirror06:00
KnowledgEngibut my english is very bad06:00
BenCfabbione: no problem06:00
=== infinity wonders how evil it would be to embrace and extend the smpalt stuff to rewrite the frequence at boot time.
KnowledgEngifor me is hard to explain the situation in english06:00
=== infinity stops pondering that, realising the answer is almost surely "very".
kyleminfinity, extremely.06:00
KnowledgEngican i query you fabbione 06:00
KnowledgEngi?06:00
fabbioneKnowledgEngi: what do you need?06:00
BenChe needs to rebuild the kernel with HZ=100006:01
infinitykylem: The only reason I'm pondering it at all is due to the frequency of people needing to change that.. Uhh.. Frequency.06:01
KnowledgEngiexatly06:01
BenCand I pointed him to the URL in the topic, which led to the kernelBuild wiki page, whihc is where he needs to be06:01
fabbioneand why do you need to keep that in a query?06:01
KnowledgEngii whant that kernel and modules ar the same that i have now06:01
kyleminfinity, HZ=1000 isn't really enough to give them low latency.06:01
KnowledgEngibut the only dfifference that i need is the HZ06:01
KnowledgEngichange it from 250 to 100006:01
infinitykylem: No, but it does help measurably.06:02
BenCKnowledgEngi: The KernelBuild wiki page you found is what you want06:02
KnowledgEngii do not like use make oldconfig06:02
kylemwhy don't the UbuntuStudio or whatever people ship one with the lowlatency patchkit anyway?06:02
KnowledgEngibecouse he show me much question that i cannot answare06:02
infinitykylem: There was much talk of it during the dapper cycle.  Not sure where it went.06:03
KnowledgEngibecouse ubuntustudio have tha same problem06:03
BenCKnowledgEngi: There will be no questions if you follow the instructions06:03
infinityWe even have userspace realtime stuff in glibc and pam, specifically for said group.06:03
KnowledgEngisudo apt-get install linux-kernel-devel fakeroot kernel-wedge kernel-package06:04
KnowledgEngifrom here ???06:04
fabbioneKnowledgEngi: from the first line of the page06:05
KnowledgEngithe firsth 2 part tall nothing about procedure06:06
KnowledgEngiDisclaimer06:07
KnowledgEngiReasons for compiling a custom kernel06:07
KnowledgEngiReasons for not compiling a custom kernel06:07
KnowledgEngithis 3 parts tall nothing06:07
KnowledgEngisudo apt-get install linux-source06:16
KnowledgEngithis are the same sources of ubuntu edgy kernel ??06:16
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KnowledgEngisudo apt-get install linux-source06:28
KnowledgEngisudo -xvjf linux-source-2.6.17.tar.bz206:28
KnowledgEngicp /boot/config-2.6.17-10-generic linux-source-2.6.17/.config06:28
KnowledgEngithis is correct??06:28
KnowledgEngibecouse this page speack about arch/....06:29
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KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/MTGUMG60.html06:52
KnowledgEngiis correct ??06:52
KnowledgEngithis is all command that i writed in the terminal for build a kernel adding a option in the configuration06:53
KnowledgEngii'm not totally sure that is correct06:53
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fabbioneBenC: i am looking at that kmap_atomic OOPS08:03
fabbioneit's intersting piece of code08:03
fabbione * However when holding an atomic kmap is is not legal to sleep, so atomic08:04
fabbione * kmaps are appropriate for short, tight code paths only.08:04
fabbioneand libata is a client for it08:04
fabbionepata_via does nothing there08:04
fabbioneso i wonder if pata_via does actually takes too long and make things go south08:04
fabbionethe BUG(); there is very specific08:04
dade`where is the default config file in the kernel development git tree ?08:12
fabbionedebian/config/$arch/config{,$flavour}08:15
dade`thx08:16
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KnowledgEngiinclude/asm/byteorder.h:5:28: error: linux/compiler.h: No such file or directory08:37
KnowledgEngiis normal ???08:37
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/c4LYkw68.html08:38
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dade`fabbione: I don't understand the config.generci has only few values set.08:47
dade`generic08:47
fabbionedade`: cat config config.generic > .config08:48
fabbioneKnowledgEngi: yes normal08:48
dade`fine08:48
KnowledgEngisudo dpkg -i linux-image-2.6.17-2-ef427c-k7_2.6.17-2.2_i386.deb08:49
KnowledgEngisudo dpkg -i linux-headers--2.6.17-2-ef427c-k7_2.6.17-2.2_i386.deb08:49
KnowledgEngiin what path i must run this commands?08:49
KnowledgEngiroot@ubuntu:/usr/src/linux-source-2.6.17# 08:50
KnowledgEngihere?08:50
KnowledgEngiroot@ubuntu:/usr/src# ls *ubuntu*08:51
KnowledgEngilinux-doc-2.6.17.13-ubuntu1_2.6.17-10.33_all.deb08:51
KnowledgEngilinux-headers-2.6.17.13-ubuntu1_2.6.17-10.33_i386.deb08:51
KnowledgEngilinux-image-2.6.17.13-ubuntu1_2.6.17-10.33_i386.deb08:51
KnowledgEngilinux-manual-2.6.17.13-ubuntu1_2.6.17-10.33_all.deb08:51
KnowledgEngilinux-source-2.6.17.13-ubuntu1_2.6.17-10.33_all.deb08:51
KnowledgEngilinux-source-2.6.17.13-ubuntu1_2.6.17-10.33_i386.changes08:51
KnowledgEngimmmm08:51
KnowledgEngiaa dpkg -i is for install08:52
KnowledgEngi:P08:52
dade`fabbione: is there a doc where all those lame questions are answered ? :)08:53
KnowledgEngifabbione, did you see the procedure in the file that i pasted?08:53
fabbionedade`: usually if you don't know the answers, it means you shouldn't be compiling your own kernel08:53
fabbioneKnowledgEngi: no. i don't have time to babysit custom kernel builds. sorry08:54
KnowledgEngiis just some line08:54
dade`I thought it was that way, but was just guessing..08:54
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/c4LYkw68.html08:54
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KnowledgEngihello JanC 08:55
KnowledgEngican you tall me if this small procedure is ok?08:55
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/c4LYkw68.html08:55
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KnowledgEngihello :(09:10
KnowledgEngikernel panic: not syncin, unable to mount root on fs .....09:11
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/NS8Tpk66.html09:11
KnowledgEngii think that it's a problem initrd related09:11
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KnowledgEngimkinitramfs -o /boot/initrd.img-2.6.17-13-ubuntu109:48
KnowledgEngii adjusted the menu.lst09:48
KnowledgEngibut when i reboot i see the ubuntu presentation 09:49
KnowledgEngiand STOP09:49
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/5R0GpE33.html09:51
KnowledgEngiwhen the system print "ubuntu" in the monitor it do not continue09:53
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KnowledgEngithe kernel config file is needed only for build the kernel ???10:15
KnowledgEngior is needed for working good too?10:15
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KnowledgEngiidea, i remove splash from menu.lst10:24
KnowledgEngiand i look the errors10:24
KnowledgEngiby10:24
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KnowledgEngihello10:43
KnowledgEnginow i has see the error deleting splash from menu.lst10:43
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/BrnMiE89.html10:43
KnowledgEngiin the page there is the errors 10:43
KnowledgEngiBenC, can you help me please :(10:54
KnowledgEngii used the how-to in the topic10:54
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/FeSfGz78.html10:55
KnowledgEngimake-kpkg buildpackage11:06
KnowledgEngithe error was here11:06
KnowledgEngimake-kpkg --append-to-version -1000hz --revision=1 kernel_image --initrd11:06
KnowledgEngisomeone suggest me this command11:06
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fabbioneBenC: are we really sure we want to go for libata?!?!?12:20
fabbionehttp://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-ide/msg04744.html12:20
fabbionedrivers/ide IS STILL THE PATA DRIVER SET THAT USERS AND DISTROS SHOULD CHOOSE. <-12:20
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KnowledgEngihello01:00
KnowledgEngithe how-to was wrong01:00
KnowledgEngihttp://rafb.net/paste/results/t7YeAc68.html01:01
KnowledgEnginow the kernel are not giving me problem01:01
KnowledgEngi*are=is01:01
pmjdebruijnKnowledgEngi, huh? you're not exactly clear...01:03
KnowledgEngihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild?highlight=%28CategoryKernel%2901:05
KnowledgEngithis how-to tall the i must do make-kpkg buildpackage01:05
pmjdebruijnKnowledgEngi, yes, and your point is?01:05
KnowledgEngimake-kpkg --append-to-version -1000hz --revision=1 kernel_image --initrd01:06
KnowledgEngithis is better01:06
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KeybukBenC: so, I think ide-generic is broken ...01:43
infinityThis is news?01:49
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Keybukin the sense that it actually doesn't work at all02:00
Keybukif you load it before the PCI driver, it claims the device (when it shouldn't!) but doesn't make block devices02:00
gnomefreakis the -6 kernel a full kernel now?02:08
mjg59Why should it not claim the device?02:08
mjg59It'll grab all IDE interfaces that are running in legacy mode. That's what it's for.02:09
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Keybukbut then it'll grab interfaces for which there's a better driver that just hasn't been loaded yet?03:06
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mjg59How is it to know?03:07
Keybukblacklist of pci ids?03:08
Keybuk(it's also broken in the fact even when it loads, it doesn't expose any block devices -- but that's another story)03:08
mjg59How would you generate the blacklist?03:08
Keybukautomatically03:08
mjg59From what?03:08
Keybuklist of pci ids for which we do have drivers03:08
mjg59And if the user builds a driver separately?03:09
Keybuk*shrug*03:09
Keybukthe fact is at the moment we can't load ide-generic03:09
Keybukbecause it breaks systems for which there's a better driver03:09
mjg59Because even if it's loaded after the other drivers, it may bind first?03:09
Keybukbecause we don't have anywhere to load it to guarantee that it's loaded after the other drivers03:10
Keybukand yes, there's a binding issue with libata03:10
mjg59The driver is functioning precisely as designed03:10
Keybuklibata isn't as quick to bind as the old ide drivers03:10
mjg59If this is causing problems, then we should figure out what to do with upstream03:10
Keybukistr that ide-generic is deprecated in favour of something in libata03:11
mjg59There's probably an identical module in libata which will have identical issues03:11
Keybukthere's fun games like two ide controllers in the machine, the one with the lower pci id needs ide-generic, the higher one has its own drier03:11
Keybukwhich we can't deal with at the moment, because ide-generic steals both03:12
mjg59It doesn't "steal". It does what it's asked to do.03:12
KeybukI still think that driver binding is best off left to user space <g>03:12
Keybukloading modules makes drivers available, but it's up to userspace to bind to devices, etc.03:12
infinityHaven't we had this conversation before?03:12
infinityLike, before the dapper release?03:12
mjg59I'm not going to argue against that03:12
mjg59But given that ide-generic doesn't bind to PCI devices...03:12
infinityI was getting libata/ide-generic races on my laptop, and we worked around it then.03:12
Keybukinfinity: yeah, we put some hacks in place for dapper with ide-generic that we knew would break when this day occurred03:13
Keybuksurprisingly, they broke03:13
infinityAlthough, "ide-generic not exposing block devices" is new..03:13
Keybukright03:13
infinityI just got my stuff swapping between /dev/sd* and /dev/hd* depending on who won the race.03:14
KeybukI wouldn't have caught (or immediately cared) the new winner of the race unless there was this other bug :)03:14
mjg59You'd probably have cared when you noticed you had no DMA03:15
Keybukprobably, yes03:15
mjg59pata_legacy is the replacement03:16
Keybukright, and that specifically ignores PCI devices, iirc?03:16
mjg59No03:17
mjg59It doesn't scan ide0 or ide103:17
Keybuk?03:17
mjg59In legacy mode, IDE busses are found at specific ports03:17
mjg59pata_legacy ignores the first two sets of these03:18
Keybukright03:18
Keybukwhy does it do that?03:18
Keybuksurely it needs to look at them for ISA ide devices?03:18
mjg59 *      Right now we do not scan the ide0 and ide1 address but should do so03:18
mjg59 *      for non PCI systems or systems with no PCI IDE legacy mode devices.03:18
Keybukahh03:18
infinityIs there a timeframe on fixing that?03:19
mjg59Well, it's trivial to make it behave like ide-generic again03:19
Keybukdoesn't it also explicitly iterate the PCI bus, looking for PCI devices?03:19
mjg59Oh, actually, the comment appears to be wrong03:20
Keybukyeah03:20
KeybukI was reading the code03:20
Keybukthe code looks like it only ignores ide0 and ide1 if there's a PCI ide controller03:20
mjg59It'll skip ide0 and ide1 iff it's found a PCI device at those addresses03:20
Keybuk858                         if (pci_resource_start(p, r) == 0x1f0)03:20
Keybuk859                                 primary = 1;03:20
Keybuk860                         if (pci_resource_start(p, r) == 0x170)03:20
Keybuk861                                 secondary = 1;03:20
mjg59And unless you pass it a magic option, it'll ignore anything after ide103:21
mjg59So loading it would be a noop on most systems03:21
Keybukof course, Ben doesn't appear to have compiled this ;)03:21
mjg59Well, given that it'd be a noop on any PCI systems...03:21
mjg59Christ, you can tell this driver was written by Alan03:22
Keybukwe still want it for non-PCI systems though?03:22
mjg59Yeah03:22
Keybuk. o O { if only we could declare "feisty is for PCI only, HA HA" }03:22
mjg59I guess we might support, ooh, 3 or so of those?03:22
KeybukI'd be surprised if anything booted on non-PCI, frankly <g>03:23
Keybukbut I've generally tried not to break things03:23
=== infinity makes a mental note not to upgrade his parents' machine to a modern Ubuntu...
mjg59So the issue then is that we won't drive any PCI adapters unless we have a specific driver for them03:23
infinityWell, they run monolithic kernels anyway, but still...03:23
Keybukmjg59: that's fine though, because libata has a generic ata thing for those adapters, no?03:23
mjg59No?03:24
Keybukmodinfo ata_generic03:24
Keybukwhich backs off if a better driver gets loaded03:24
mjg59Oh, I'm looking in an excessively old kernel tree03:24
Keybuk(my laptop is driving with ata_generic today -- so I know it works <g>)03:24
mjg59Let me finish pulling down 2.6.1903:24
Keybuk 11  *  Driver for PCI IDE interfaces implementing the standard bus mastering03:25
Keybuk 12  *  interface functionality. This assumes the BIOS did the drive set up and03:25
Keybuk 13  *  tuning for us. By default we do not grab all IDE class devices as they03:25
Keybuk 14  *  may have other drivers or need fixups to avoid problems. Instead we keep03:25
Keybuk 15  *  a default list of stuff without documentation/driver that appears to03:25
Keybuk 16  *  work.03:25
Keybukthe first bit of that comment is a lie03:25
Keybukalias: pci:v*d*sv*sd*bc01sc01i*03:26
Keybuk:p03:26
mjg59Oh03:26
mjg59That's just the same as pci/generic.c03:27
mjg59It doesn't help in the case of new hardware appearing03:27
Keybuk?03:27
mjg59Well, again assuming that the comment has any relation to reality03:27
mjg59(Which, as we've already seen, may not be a good plan)03:27
mjg59It'll load for all IDE class devices, but only bind if they hit the built-in whitelist03:28
Keybukthat can't be true, because it's loaded on my laptop03:28
Keybukwhich isn't in the whitelist03:28
mjg59Are you sure it's bound?03:28
Keybuk*confused*03:28
Keybukwell, I can't see any other driver03:28
mjg59Can you stick lspci somewhere?03:28
mjg59Uh, lsmod03:28
Keybukoh, wait, alim15x3 ... laptop is still using the old non-libata driver03:29
Keybukso right, we have the general problem of new hardware that we don't have a driver for, or at least the pci id for, appearing and failing to boot because there's no IDE driver and no "generic" driver to claim it?03:30
mjg59Yes03:30
Keybukwe'd need to set all_generic_ide=1 or something03:31
mjg59But then it'll bind to everything, even if there's a better driver03:31
Keybukyeah03:31
Keybukwe could make it a kernel option, then at least we can document it :)03:32
mjg59I guess you could poke bind/unbind stuff03:32
mjg59But yeah, I'm happy with the idea of just disabling ide-generic and having initramfs pass all-generic-ide to the ata_generic module if the user supplies it on the kernel boot line03:32
mjg59Then users with excessively bling hardware can just add that boot option at install time03:33
KeybukI wonder how often new IDE controllers come out these days03:33
Keybuk(that aren't SATA)03:33
mjg59Several in the past few months03:33
mjg59Things will probably settle down again now03:33
mjg59Intel took PATA out of ICH803:34
KeybukI guess I also need to kick Ben, most of the libata modules aren't compiled :p03:34
mjg59We also need all the latest pata patches from -mm and anything that Alan has posted to LKML lately03:34
Keybuk*nods*03:34
mjg59Otherwise a moderate number of them will cause corruption over suspend/resume03:34
fabbione<fabbione> http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-ide/msg04744.html03:35
fabbione<fabbione> drivers/ide IS STILL THE PATA DRIVER SET THAT USERS AND DISTROS SHOULD CHOOSE. <-03:35
fabbione^^03:35
fabbionethis was a quote from Jeff for .1903:35
mjg59Yes. We're not shipping .19.03:35
fabbionemjg59: no matter if we land for .20 we are still with .19 for a while03:36
mjg59Someone has to test this code in the real world. It might as well be us.03:36
mjg59We can revert with approximately no effort.03:36
fabbioneright, but it would be wise to coordinate with upstream before even entering a testing phase03:37
fabbioneand i don't think that has been done03:37
Keybukwe've been testing libata for 6 months now03:37
fabbioneKeybuk: libata doesn't seems to be the primary issue03:38
Keybukthen what is?03:38
infinityI'm all for us ironing out the wrinkles while we're still ages away from another LTS.03:38
fabbioneKeybuk: the drivers using it.03:38
infinityAnd, hey, now that we have kyle on staff, we have a kernel rock star, so it's all good.03:38
fabbioneKeybuk: see 72824 for example03:39
Keybuksome of the drivers using it are clearly better than the ide ones03:39
mjg59Most of the drivers are fine03:39
mjg59And it's actually practical to fix bugs in them, unlike drivers/ide03:39
Keybukwe shipped edgy preferring some libata pata drivers over the old ide subsystem03:39
Keybukmjg59: interesting, I loaded ata_generic with all_generic_ide=1 and it hasn't actually picked up my card03:41
Keybukit found the ide ports, bitches a lot about a port being "too slow", and then stays loaded with no interfaces03:42
KeybukI did get a /dev/sg003:42
Keybukoh, heh03:42
Keybukneed sd_mod03:42
Keybukhmm, that should've auto-loaded ... wonder why it didn't03:43
Keybukahh03:45
Keybukudev rules bug :)03:45
Keybukok, that all works03:54
Keybukmy laptop boots happily with ata_generic if forced03:54
Keybukand the UUID stuff transitioned it nicely too03:54
kylemsweet.03:54
Keybukhappily nobody with a SCSI or SATA card tried upgrading udev this afternoon03:55
mjg59Keybuk: Excellent04:00
mjg59Keybuk: So we just need initramfs-tools to pass that through if the user provides it04:01
Keybukyeah04:01
Keybukmdz has a general "I want some way of forcing a driver bind" desire which came out of some s3kr3t meeting at UDS04:01
Keybukso I may do it with that04:01
Keybukunless I carry on stamping my foot about how irritatingly impossible it is to do this <g>04:02
KeybukI wonder how much traction upstream a "binding in user space" patch would get04:06
infinityKeybuk: me, kyle, and ben discussed that very thing in SFO.04:10
infinity(userspace binding, that is)04:10
Keybukit makes some amount of sense04:14
Keybukif userspace got to decide which module got which device, we'd have a lot less problems04:14
infinityIndeed.04:14
infinityWe discussed some rationale, and some hand-wavey "how could we do this", but didn't actually talk implementation.04:14
Keybukyou'd need to sort out the distinction between modules and drivers04:15
infinityBut the general idea seems sound.04:15
mjg59It is, sadly, not workable in certain cases04:15
Keybukso that device binding is either done at the module level (in which case drivers go away), or drivers become a first class object with uevents, etc.04:15
mjg59For instance, the PCI dev table can have a pointer to a structure in the data field04:15
Keybukand then have external tables that udev can look up whenever a device is added, or driver/module added, and mate the two04:15
Keybukright04:16
Keybukthe special casing04:16
mjg59Yes04:16
Keybukit doesn't prevent anything04:16
Keybukit just means the special casing lists and the supported device lists become different04:16
mjg59It would need some rewriting of certain modules04:16
Keybuksure04:16
Keybukin fact, all modules would need the device table removed and a .inf file written04:17
BenCKeybuk: can you summarize ide-generic so I don't have to read all this scrollback :)04:17
KeybukBenC: ide-generic is broken, if you load it, you don't get any block devices04:18
Keybukand it's loading too quickly because of some other changes, and stealing the PCI devices04:18
Keybukso I've disabled loading entirely04:18
KeybukFTW we appear to need to load pata_legacy (not yet compiled) for non-PCI interfaces, which doesn't steal04:18
Keybukand have an option to force ata_generic to take devices it's unaware of, so people with unknown IDE interfaces can still boot04:19
BenCknown, was going to work on it when I got the box that elmo sent me from UDS04:19
Keybuktbh, if pata_legacy and ata_generic dtrt (which they appear to), I'm tempted to remove ide-generic entirely and sing a little song about it04:19
BenCpata_legacy is marked "dangerous" IIRC04:19
BenClet me check again04:20
mjg59I disagree that ide-generic is broken, but would concur that we shouldn't be trying to load it by default04:20
Keybukmjg59: well, it's working according to its design04:20
mjg59Keybuk: How about leaving ide-generic built, and have a boot option that force-loads it?04:20
KeybukI'd be happy with just not loading it unless someone wants it loaded04:20
Keybukyes, I'd be happy with that04:20
mjg59It has no modalias entries04:20
BenCsounds like a plan to me04:21
mjg59ubuntu-2.6 is the 2.6.19 branch, right?04:21
BenCbut ONLY if there's something in the installer to recoginize that and marshall it into the installed system04:21
BenCmjg59: Right04:21
KeybukBenC: the installer could pick up the same option from its own boot? :p04:21
mjg59If it's passed at install CD time, it'll be put on the installed system04:21
Keybukwe should probably decide whether we prefer pata_legacy/ata_generic or ide-generic04:22
BenCKeybuk: I meant so the user didn't have to add it manually after installing :P04:22
mjg59BenC: There /should/ be no cases where ide-generic is necessary04:22
mjg59Keybuk: pata_legacy = ide-generic. ata_generic = drivers/ide/pci/generic04:23
mjg59Just to make things confusing04:23
Keybukheh04:23
Keybukwhich did the latter get exposed as?04:23
mjg59generic.ko04:23
Keybukah yes04:23
Keybukof course04:23
Keybukpata_legacy has the bonus over ide-generic that it doesn't bind to ide0 or ide1 if there's a PCI device with those addresses04:23
mjg59Yes04:24
Keybuk(I wonder why ide-generic doesn't do the same thing)04:24
mjg59Because, erm.04:24
mjg59LOOK, A THREE HEADED MONKEY04:24
BenCmjg59: The case where we have a ide device with no driver (like marvell currently is in edgy/dapper)04:24
mjg59BenC: We should be using generic for that, not ide-generic04:24
mjg59That way they get DMA04:24
BenCgeneric needs entries in it still04:24
mjg59Not if ide-all-generic is passed04:24
Keybukmodprobe ata_generic all_generic_ide=104:25
Keybuk(this can be trivially written into a modprobe.d options file)04:25
mjg59Anyway, we have a marvell driver for feisty04:25
BenCyeah, but I need to backport it for edgy and dapper04:25
mjg59Heh04:26
mjg59Or just add the entries to generic.c04:26
BenCmight as well add the proper driver :)04:26
BenCKeybuk: Check this out:04:27
BenC"Also modprobe will be built into udev to solve the04:27
BenCperformance-problems we see with parsing the modprobe-files for every04:27
BenCdevice with a modalias."04:27
BenCKeybuk: interested in building modprobe and udev together? :)04:27
KeybukBenC: ref?04:28
KeybukI've been bitching about that for some time04:28
KeybukI even had a patch for it for a while04:28
=== Keybuk finds the thread
Keybukinteresting how several people seem to be having the same idea entirely independently (user space binding)04:33
BenCyeah04:33
BenCI still think the idea of allowing the kernel to bind without interference is bad, forcing us to ubind/rebind04:33
Keybukbeing able to just edit modules.alias, add a couple of new lines, and have things just work(tm) would be sweet04:33
KeybukI still don't see how kay has managed to get bind/unbind to work04:34
KeybukI have the SuSE rules here, and it doesn't use them04:34
Keybukthe biggest problem is the humongous race between udev getting the add@/module/... and the bind/unbind thing actually appearing04:34
Keybuk(not to mention futzing from a module to a driver)04:35
Keybukif we had driver uevents, it would be a sinch04:36
mjg59* refs/heads/origin: does not fast forward to branch 'master' of git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/bcollins/ubuntu-2.6;04:36
BenCit would be nice if we could muck with the driver's table after it was loaded04:36
mjg59What does that /mean/?04:36
KeybukSUBSYSTEM=="driver", ACTION=="add", some_thing_to_get_the_list_of_devices, SYSFS{bind}="$devices"04:36
BenCmjg59: It means that ubuntu-2.6 is not the same base tree as when it was in edgy...re-clone04:37
mjg59Grngh.04:37
BenCmjg59: we'll be syncing right along into 2.6.20, fyi04:37
mjg59Cool04:37
KeybukBenC: so, thinking about this a bit more04:41
Keybukthe first step would be to at least get race and ambiguity free access to the bind/unbind bits of a driver04:42
Keybukso when a module loads, or a device gets added to a bus, we can poke bind with the bus id04:42
Keybuk(I assume that overrides the table lookups?)04:42
Keybukthat way we could take advantage of it immediately by just excluding troublesome PCI ids, and having a udev rule to make the decision04:42
Keybukif kay has nih'd my udev modprobe patch, this would be yawningly easy04:43
Keybuk(aside from the necessary kernel hacking)04:44
kylemmoo.04:44
Keybuk(nvidia/nvidia-legacy, prism, etc. spring to mind as immediately useful test cases)04:44
zulkylem: open up a box of milk and won?04:45
Keybukand that bt878 thing04:45
kylemi always win.04:45
Keybukif we have success there, we can then just wholesale flip everything to use userspace for the binding04:46
BenCI have a bt878 card too, so I can test that case04:48
Keybukright now we get uevents when a device is added to a bus04:52
Keybukthat uevent contains enough information to make a decision as to which modules can handle that04:52
Keybukand probably also has enough information for us to decide which of two competing modules to use (e.g. we can look at a config file on the filesystem, if all else fails)04:53
Keybukindeed, that is how we load modules today04:53
Keybukwe also get a uevent when a module is loaded into the kernel04:54
Keybukthe problem is we get this uevent at the wrong time, it appears to get generated before the module's init function is called04:57
Keybukso before any of the module's drivers are registered04:57
Keybukadditionally, devices are bound to drivers, not to modules04:57
Keybukand we get no uevents for drivers04:57
Keybukalso there's no way to get from a module to its drivers (just the other way around, due to a hacky symlink)04:58
Keybukthat'd be the first thing to fix04:58
Keybuk1) get from module to drivers and back again easily04:58
Keybuk2) uevents when drivers are registered and unregistered04:58
Keybukthis patch would be sufficiently subtle and useful that it'd probably get accepted04:59
Keybukthat'd give us the ability to write a udev rule that directly poked bind or unbind at the driver leve04:59
Keybuk+l04:59
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kylemhmm.05:21
zul?05:21
Keybukdefinitely a conversation killer05:23
kylemso basically you want a uevent when the module is finished running it's init section?05:23
Mithrandirand the unload/finish section.05:24
Keybukto be honest, I'd rather have uevents when the drivers were registered05:25
Keybukthat's far more fitting05:25
mjg59I wouldn't have thought that would be too difficult05:31
kylemKeybuk, i can try cooking a patch in my off time05:32
Keybukmjg59: willy came up with the problem that modules register multiple drivers with the same name05:34
Keybukso /sys/module/$MODULE/$DRIVER wouldn't work :-(05:35
mjg59Is kernel.org fucked right now?05:35
mjg59Keybuk: Yeah, there's going to have to be a bus component to it05:35
kylemmjg59, www1 is05:35
kylemuse www2.kernel.org05:35
Keybukkylem: I could probably argue for doing this in your on time, if you wanted :p  there's a spec for this05:35
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kylemKeybuk, in that case, i'd like that05:35
Keybukif drivers had kobjects that sat under the module, with the bus name salted in, that would rock05:36
Keybukthen /sys/bus/pci/drivers could be just a list of symlinks :p05:36
Keybukhttps://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/new-pci-ids05:36
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jbaileyBenC: Around?05:36
zulhey jeff05:36
jbaileyHeya chuck!05:36
kylemloadavg is like 500 on www1. heh.05:37
Keybuk(note that mdz's brain dump in the whiteboard utterly does not work)05:39
Keybukfor a start, his knowledge of module loading is a year out of date... modules.pcimap, sheesh, crusty!05:39
kylemi didn't realize it had changed05:40
jbaileykylem: Yeah.  Inthe new udev/sysfs world, there's some really cool hacks.05:40
Keybukevery ubuntu release up to dapper loaded modules differently05:40
Keybuknowadays, the kernel generates a MODALIAS string (pci:vBLAHdBLAH...) that describes the device and places that in the uevent05:41
Keybukthat matches wildcard strings in the module alias table05:41
kylemah.05:41
Keybukso whenever we get a uevent with a MODALIAS, we just call modprobe on it05:41
Keybukthis is likely to change in feisty, or feisty+1, as udev is getting modprobe built in to save time05:42
Keybukso udev will load the module directly05:42
kylemspiff. thanks.05:42
jbaileyByebye modules-init-tools finally?05:42
Keybukgiven this, it'd be a piece of piss to do user-space binding if we can fix the issue outlined above05:42
KeybukSUBSYSTEM=="pci", ATTR{vendor}="8086", ATTR{device}="1234", BIND="some_module"05:43
Keybuksome_driver, sorry05:43
MithrandirKeybuk: what's the difference between a driver and a module?05:44
KeybukMithrandir: modules contain drivers05:44
BenCjbailey: yeah05:44
Keybukdrivers are per-bus, and contain tables of devices which they are bound to05:44
kylemmultiple drivers, possibly...05:44
Keybuke.g.05:44
Keybuk/sys/bus/pci/drivers05:45
Keybuk/sys/bus/pci/drivers/nForce2_smbus05:45
BenCfor one, drivers don't always match the name of the module05:45
Keybuk/sys/bus/pci/drivers/nForce2_smbus/module -> /sys/module/i2c_nforce205:45
BenCwhich for most modules really sucks05:45
KeybukBenC: right, and sometimes modules have multiple drivers with the same name, just on different buses05:45
BenCyeah, the continuity there needs some help05:46
Keybukthat wouldn't be bad if the driver had a kobject under the module though, so we could do /sys/module/i2c_nforce2/pci -> /sys/bus/pci/drivers/nForce2_smbus or something05:46
MithrandirKeybuk: ah, ok.05:46
Keybuk(that assumes a module doesn't contain multiple drivers with different names on the same bus ... I suspect there's an example of that too <g>)05:47
BenCif it's possible, I'm sure we have it :)05:47
mjg59Keybuk: Yeah, it may have to be /sys/module/i2c_nforce2/pci/i2c_nforce2 -> /sys/bus/pci/drivers/whatever05:47
Keybukmjg59: which wouldn't be so bad05:47
Keybukand at that point, you could just have /sys/module/i2c_nforce2/pci/nForce2_smbus/bind05:48
Keybukand make /sys/bus/pci/drivers/* a symlink to /sys/module/$MODULE/$BUS/*05:48
mjg59Yeah05:48
mjg59Except in the cases where it's not a module05:48
Keybukcan you have drivers outside of modules?05:48
BenCKeybuk: would it be feasible for udev to have a mechanism with the kernel to where it could get a "add device" notification and somehow keep the kernel from performing binding on that device?05:49
mjg59Do statically built in things still appear under /sys/module nowadays?05:49
BenCKeybuk: Yeah, platform drivers for instance05:49
Keybukof, of course05:49
BenCmjg59: No, which sucks05:49
mjg59Also, what Ben said05:49
KeybukBenC: not sure it'd be worth the effort ... we could experiment at first by just removing duplicate pci ids, and doing the bind by hand from udev05:50
Keybukit may make sense to have a /sys/kernel/never_bind or something05:50
BenCKeybuk: Do you know if the kernel sends an "device add" prior to binding with a driver?05:51
KeybukBenC: it sends it before the actual bind, yes05:51
Keybukbut it's sent via netlink, so no knowing when udev actually gets to it, and gets to reply05:51
BenCdoes the kernel honor any sort of return values from udev?05:51
Keybukno such thing05:51
Keybukthe kernel doesn't even know udev is listening05:51
BenCok05:52
BenCit would be nice if we could export a driver->module mapping05:52
Keybukyes05:53
zulpitty there isnt a kudev05:53
BenCas of now, it's only known after the module is loaded05:53
Keybukzul: ?05:53
KeybukKDE version?05:53
BenCin kernel udev!?!?05:53
BenClol05:53
zulyeah05:53
Keybukthe whole point of udev is to do things in userspace05:53
BenCgudev, so that and try not to laugh05:53
Keybukwhere we can make the big decisions, using things like config files and stuff05:53
BenCs/so/say/05:54
Keybukludev05:54
Keybukpudev05:54
KeybukANYWAY05:54
BenCKeybuk: We need to get together on this whole driver binding thing to figure out the best way to do what I want with driver-module-manager05:55
BenCI really want to avoid the part where the kernel binds with "whatever driver" and requires udev to ubind/bind to the correct one05:56
kylemheh05:56
BenCI know it's a bit of a corner case, but without it, the whole idea of managing drivers seems pointless05:57
BenCand it also makes it harder to do things like driver updates from ihv's05:57
BenCthere are cases where unbinding just isn't as nifty as it sounds05:58
KeybukBenC: I agree05:58
Keybukunbind-then-bind sucks05:59
Keybukplus it just doesn't work atm05:59
BenCI need to test the bind/unbind05:59
Keybukdriver-module-manager?05:59
Keybukthe problem with unbind/bind is there's nowhere useful to do it right now, as you race06:01
Keybukideally when a device is added, we'd look up the driver it needs and which module that's in -- if the module is loaded, we'd poke the driver's bind directory -- if the module is not loaded, we'd load it06:02
Keybukand then when a driver is added, we'd iterate the bus looking for any devices we can bind to it, and do the binding06:02
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zulheh http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7028023-fulltext.html07:37
zulhas anyone tried building the vmware modules on 2.6.19 besides ajmitch08:26
zulmeh...ill give it a shot tonight08:28
BenClrm is built against 2.6.19, but there's a small fixup needed08:36
zulill try sending a patch..08:36
zulor wait until vmware sends one08:36
ajmitchBenC: like? I'm wanting vmware server running again, it had issues with CHECKSUM_HW08:37
ajmitchis the same problem in the vmware player modules?08:37
zulCHECKSUM_HW has disapeared in 2.6.19 if i recall08:37
BenCs/CHECKSUM_HW/CHECKSUM_COMPLETE/08:37
BenCthat's the fixup I was talking about08:37
zulill send you a patch08:37
ajmitchok08:38
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ajmitchBenC: thanks, it's working now (once I removed a reference to config.h as well)08:50
BenCyeah, that's the other one08:51
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zulkylem: for that hang on amd64 im working on an update09:42
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