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blaahi all09:30
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imbrandon@schedule us/chicago02:37
tonyyarussoLooks like the bot hates you02:40
tonyyarusso@schedule chicago02:40
UbugtuSchedule for America/Chicago: 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu02:40
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Expressje lui demandait ;) :D06:55
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robotgeekhello, doccers :)10:10
mdke_who else is around?10:10
robotgeekhmm, LaserJock said he will will back soonish. running an errand or so10:11
=== nixternal is here
=== tonyyarusso is here
mdke_we need an agenda10:11
=== mdke goes and hunts for all the doc-specs
nixternalthere is the KDG10:12
Riddellooh, docs meeting?10:13
nixternalyes sir10:13
Riddellput me down for pimping bzr on the agenda10:13
Burgworkone of the bzr devs just showed me an online pqm tools10:14
mdkego ahead and add things to the agenda10:14
Burgworkhowever, I think we should be looking into everything on moin, personally10:14
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Riddellmdke: how can I add stuff if we don't have one?10:14
mdkeRiddell: well, you edit the page, and type something in10:15
Riddellmm hmm, which page?10:15
tonyyarussoI only have 40 minutes of lappy battery, so hopefully this is quick10:18
mdkeshall we get cracking?10:19
Burgworksounds good10:19
mdkeagenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda10:19
mdkerefresh it if you haven't in the last few seconds10:19
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mdkelet's discuss briefly the specifications we have for feisty so far10:19
mdkethe most significant one is TopicBasedHelp. Have people had a chance to read it since the updates the other day?10:20
tonyyarussoI haven't - URL?10:20
Burgworksort of10:20
mdketonyyarusso: wiki:TopicBasedHelp10:20
nixternali briefed it yes10:20
mdkewhat do people think?10:21
tonyyarussoI like the concept of having short answers available, but I don't want it to be to the exclusion of manual-style docs.10:21
tonyyarussoI think we should have both ways to look up quick answers, and something that caters to the "I'm going to sit down and learn this over the weekend" crowd10:22
robotgeeki dont mind it at all if it helps searching for docs10:22
mdkethe idea isn't to exclude anything, just to split up the existing sections presentationally10:22
Burgworksure, can we make each page a moin page?10:22
tonyyarussoIf they can share content, great, but that's a technical issue and I don't know how they work internally10:22
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robotgeeki feel that our doc style kinda tends towards that, anyways10:22
nixternalBurgwork: that is a good idea actually10:22
tonyyarussomdke: I don't want to split them entirely though - I actually like the way they are now10:23
nixternalgo from moin2xml10:23
Burgworkmdke: thoughts on that?10:24
robotgeeknixternal: does that work reliably now?10:24
Burgworkis moin2xml mature enough?10:24
nixternalfrom what i can tell, it is breaking up our current sections, and adding a top level faq section that im guessing will link to the topic headins10:24
nixternalBurgwork: actually, no it isn't...any of the wiki2xml's scripts are not good10:25
nixternalalthough, copy and paste isn't all that difficult ;)10:25
=== LaserJock waves hello
=== nixternal waves back
tonyyarussoIn short, it sounds like a good goal at least from the user perspective; dunno how specifically to get there10:27
robotgeekyeah, i am not sure if any kubuntu doc team member has started talking upstream about it. (i havent)10:27
nixternalthats what we have to work out, as it will cause us to utilize a different layout than what we currently use..however it shouldn't be all that difficult10:27
nixternalrobotgeek: i have10:27
nixternalupstream, ala KDE, want topic-based help as well, but hasn't been really looked into as much10:28
nixternali know there is a supposed khelpcenter restructuring plan, but implementation or due date is unk10:28
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Burgworkwe need something for feisty10:29
BurgworkI think the best way is to do moin2xml10:29
BurgworkI know Fedora is using it already10:29
nixternalwhen is our string freeze btw?10:29
LaserJocknixternal: check the schedule10:30
nixternalMarch 810:30
nixternalhaha, i was looking dead at the schedule at that10:30
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robotgeeki suggest we make a list of things that don't work well with moin2xml, maybe we can get someone to fix it for us?10:31
LaserJockhow are we going to get it into moin in the first place?10:31
Burgworkmanual merging10:32
Burgworkidentify a toc we want to ship and then work on those pieces10:32
nixternali did a moin2xml with the release pages we were doing during edgy, and there were a lot of manual fixes that had to be done10:33
Burgworklets document all those things10:34
nixternali think we can add to the script as well in order to fix some of those issue with tags10:34
Burgworkis the converter in LP?10:34
nixternalprobably just a bunch of sed/awk10:34
LaserJockfedora isn't it?10:34
nixternali have been using the converter on the moinmoin webpage10:35
Burgworkyep, but is it uploading to Ubuntu?10:35
Burgworkok, shall we assume we are going with moin2xml?10:35
nixternaleither that or copy and paste10:35
nixternalmanual merging..which im thinking will be just as quick10:35
Burgworkmanual merging for the initial docbook --> moin10:36
nixternalwith the moin2xml style has to be very strict...i do know that is a recommendation10:36
Burgworkwe can acls if needed10:36
LaserJockI do like the idea having people be able to edit a wiki page to contribute10:36
LaserJockgiving edit access on the wiki is much easeir then svn access I think10:36
Burgworkso if we are going moin, we need the following done:10:36
Burgworkmerge docbook into moin10:36
Burgworkdecide on list of topics to ship10:37
Burgworkstart test convertions to work bugs out of the converter10:37
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LaserJockwell, I'm kinda feeling like we are getting ahead of ourselves10:37
Burgworkhow so?10:38
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Burgworkwe need to make a decision10:38
LaserJockhave we decided what docs and in what forms we want them?10:38
Burgworkthe wiki is getting edits while the docbook is not10:38
nixternali know the kubuntu docs spec was approved, however if we are going for a unified layout, that has to change (the kdg spec)10:38
robotgeeknixternal: what do you mean, unified layout? for udg and kdg?10:40
Burgworkif we do go with moin, we need to reconsider how we do doc on the wiki10:40
nixternalthats what the topic-based help spec calls for10:40
nixternalKubuntu team members should get the packaging right so that the Kubuntu documents take on the structure decided above.10:40
nixternalbut when it comes to Kubuntu based stuff, there is one man, mr. Riddell :)10:41
tonyyarussoDoes that give us enough direction to move on?10:41
=== Riddell doesn't use a title
nixternalThe Grand Puba10:42
robotgeekone sec, so essentially we will be editing stuff on the wiki, and merging it back in? 10:42
nixternalyes robotgeek 10:42
nixternalwhich means we will need to watch the pages closely10:42
somerville32What about Xubuntu stuff?10:42
robotgeekokay. we will definetly need policies on when and how to convert/sync back etc. 10:43
LaserJockwell, we would use ACLs I'm guessing10:43
nixternalsomerville32: i was wondering the same thing, but everything i have seen is ubuntu and kubuntu ;(10:43
LaserJockmaybe a little Edubuntu too ;-)10:43
tonyyarussoTo be discussed with their respective teams more later?10:43
nixternalya, dedfinitely Edubuntu10:43
robotgeekdoes xubuntu not use gnome's help manager?10:43
LaserJockok, but I think we are still going off10:44
LaserJockrobotgeek: I would think not10:44
nixternalLaserJock: if you use ACLs why not continue using the SVN then?10:44
nixternalessentially, the SVN has that all taken care of10:44
LaserJockwe can control the ACLs much better10:44
nixternalwith moinmoin?10:44
nixternali guess you need a super power to be able to do that10:44
LaserJockwhich we have I believe10:44
LaserJockon the other hand you have to get a Canonical admin to do svn10:45
nixternalim sure either Burgwork or mdke does10:45
LaserJockbut I'm still thinking we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit10:46
Burgworkthe advantage with moin is with ease of editing10:46
Burgworknothing to do with access control10:46
LaserJockwell, I think it might be another advantage10:47
nixternalya, that is why i said we will have to watch those pages like a hawk10:47
tonyyarusso(Any chance we can rearrange the order of the Agenda and talk about Open Week next?  That's the only other thing on there I'd like to hear about, but I only have 10 minutes of battery left.)10:47
Burgworkopen week is this week10:47
Burgworklets talk about that right now10:47
=== nixternal sits back
nixternalforgot the "and listens" part10:47
Burgworkwe basically need a todo list, with people to answer10:47
Burgworkso here is what I propose:10:47
Burgworkfix up the wikitodo and just get people working on that10:48
LaserJockwhere did mdke go?10:48
Burgworklets identify high visibility but low quality pages and then work on them10:48
=== robotgeek will not be able to attend openweek at all, sad
Burgworksuch as our installation guide10:48
tonyyarussoI'd like to propose that we include some basic wiki howto session, syntax/formatting, how to create pages, etc. for people that would like to start writing/editing docs (both ones discussed above and otherwise), but have never used a wiki before.10:48
Burgworkyes, that is an excellent idea10:48
BurgworkI can lead a mediawiki2moin session10:48
tonyyarussoFor those who have experience on wikipedia, etc.?10:49
tonyyarussoSounds good10:49
LaserJockok, so we have 2 hrs right?10:49
Burgworkwe do? I have not read the OpenWeek thingy10:50
tonyyarussoIs the /participate page part of our responsibility, or does someone else cover that?  If it's us, make sure that lots of possibilities are listed10:50
Burgworkon the website?10:50
LaserJock1 hr on wed. and 1 hr on sat.10:50
Burgworksort of10:50
Burgworkboth mdke and myself can edit the website10:51
Burgworkwe need to munge in that ContributeToUbuntu and the HelpingUbuntu pages into that one10:51
tonyyarussoOkay.  It's probably good as is, but maybe just make one sweep over it to make sure things are included10:51
LaserJockok so we have probably 3 main thing10:52
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LaserJock1) intro to doc team, what we do and how to get involved10:52
LaserJock2) wiki docs10:52
LaserJock3) shipped docs10:52
BurgworkI think there is enough work with just the wik10:53
tonyyarussoProbably send out something to the ml asking for help going over and touching up high visibility wiki pages over the weekend10:54
robotgeeksure, its a good time to fix docs10:54
tonyyarusso Is that all we have on that then?10:56
robotgeeklooks like :)10:57
LaserJockwell, mdke needs to know what's going on, we should have a ML thread on it10:57
robotgeeksure, i am maintaining minutes :)10:57
tonyyarussogood move robotgeek 10:57
somerville32Can I add an item to the agenda? haha10:58
robotgeeksomerville32: sure, we can discuess it at the end, i guess10:58
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robotgeekRiddell: guess you are up 10:58
tonyyarussoAnd I'm out.  Have a good rest of the meeting folks.10:59
robotgeektonyyarusso: later10:59
robotgeekRiddell: pimping bzr :)11:01
Riddelloh well, it's dead cool11:01
Riddellbut might be redundant if the whole thing is moving to moin11:01
Riddellhowever, incase it's not, bzr is much more flexible than svn11:02
LaserJockbut it's also messier for a project this size11:02
Riddellyou won't have to rely on sysadmins for access control, and those without access can easily branch and have changed merged in11:02
Riddellhow so?11:02
LaserJockhaving one repo11:03
Riddellbzr is only 1 repo11:03
Riddellnot sure what you mean11:03
LaserJockwell, I'm imagining you'd need 1 branch for each doc11:04
LaserJockor something similar11:04
Riddellit's also simpler than svn in parts, and not more complex anywhere11:04
Riddellyou wouldn't11:04
Riddellhowever it's not as fast, you're right there11:04
Riddellbut that's being worked on11:04
robotgeekwe don't really branch too much, only on releases. 11:04
LaserJockit's unpractical for people to carry around 200MB repos11:04
Riddellthat wouldn't change11:04
LaserJockrobotgeek: that's not what I mean11:04
Riddellthen you can do a checkout --lightweight11:04
=== robotgeek waits, since he has never used bzr
LaserJockI think that is still lightweight11:05
lifelesshi guys11:05
lifelesscan I help11:05
LaserJockI mean, I'm all for bzr11:05
LaserJockbut I've already tried11:05
LaserJockand it's slow and difficult for people to use in this instance11:06
Riddelllifeless: I'm trying to presuade them to move from svn to bzr, now that svn imports are working for their svn archive on launchpad11:06
RiddellLaserJock: what's difficult about it?11:06
LaserJockwell, people have a hard time figuring out where to put things11:06
LaserJockand what the workflow is11:06
RiddellLaserJock: maybe you havn't tried it in a while, you can do a bzr checkout now, you don't have to branch unless you actually want to11:07
lifelessLaserJock: can you be more precise. Perhaps an example ?11:07
Riddellit's exactfly the same workflow as svn11:07
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lifelessLaserJock: i.e. 'when I wanted to add fnor.svg, I did not know what to do'11:07
Riddellbut if you want to branch, if you're doing something experimental or you don't have commit rights, then it's far easier to do so11:08
LaserJockok, well there's 2 things11:08
Riddelltry it now!  bzr checkout sftp://<lpuser>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox11:08
lifelessLaserJock: go on11:08
LaserJockif we do it in "svn-like" mode then there is not much of a distinct advantage for us11:08
RiddellI've pointed out two major advantages11:09
lifelessLaserJock: you said there are two problems where its harder11:09
lifelessLaserJock: I'd love it if you could enlarge on that11:10
LaserJockwell, speed is always an issue11:10
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LaserJockgranted it's getting better11:10
LaserJockthe other thing was access11:11
lifeless'access' ?11:11
LaserJockwhich hopefully LP will improve11:11
Riddellanyone in the ubuntu-doc team can commit to that sandbox archive (go ahead and try!)11:11
lifelessLaserJock: what do you mean 'access' ?11:11
LaserJockbzr on LP is not exactly user friendly11:11
Riddellit's a damn site better than svn controlled by a sysadmin11:12
LaserJocklifeless: both who gets to commit and what to do with people who can't commit11:12
lifelessRiddell: chill out man, lets work through this :)11:12
LaserJockyeah, I mean I'm with you guys11:12
LaserJockI love bzr11:12
lifelessLaserJock: I'm not clear what you mean. Give me an example please.11:12
LaserJockok, so how is a non-docteam member supposed to use bzr?11:13
lifelessLaserJock: i.e. 'the doc-team leaders cannot control who can commit to the branch'11:13
lifelessLaserJock: bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox11:13
LaserJockok, then what do they do with it?11:13
robotgeekRiddell: i get  ERROR: Not a branch blah11:13
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lifelessLaserJock: you tell me, give me a use case,  I'll give you the bzr commands.11:13
somerville32bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: /home/ubuntu/sftp:/cody-somerville@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox/11:14
lifelesssomerville32: install python-paramiko11:14
lifelesssomerville32: or add '/'after the ':'11:14
robotgeeklifeless: your command works, ridell's does not11:14
robotgeeki see what you mean by it's slow :)11:14
lifelessrobotgeek: you need to put your lp username in riddells command, or be in the ubuntu-doc team11:14
lifelessrobotgeek: you're probably not in the ubuntu-doc team.11:15
robotgeeklifeless: no, i am. 11:15
LaserJocklifeless: Joe wants to contribute to the docs, so he grabs the LP branch but doesn't know what to do with it afterwords11:15
lifelessLaserJock: cmon, what does he do with svn today ?11:15
lifelessLaserJock: I'll be he makes some changes, runs svn diff and posts the diff right ?11:15
LaserJockhe sends a patch to the doc team mailing list11:15
lifelessLaserJock: so with bzr, he can do *exactly that* today. Nothing new to learn.11:16
robotgeekdoes bzr help in "automating" that process?11:16
LaserJocklifeless: so nothing to gain with bzr11:16
lifelessLaserJock: but he can also start doing more capable things. like:11:16
lifelessmaking a new branch, which (s)he can now commit to. Then the diff is generate by doing 'bzr bundle', and thats a human readable diff with extra data so that you can see their commits, and track renames etc11:17
lifelessalso it handles binary file changes like images11:17
somerville32I got more errors11:18
lifelessLaserJock: so going back to your point, could I reasonably paraphrase it as 'we have no workflow figured out for this new tool' ?11:18
LaserJocklifeless: more like "we don't want to change workflow as it works ok now" but yeah11:18
robotgeeklifeless: yes, essentially that11:18
lifelessso my point here is two fold.11:18
LaserJockwe can certainly try again11:18
LaserJockI've already tried once11:19
lifelessa) bzr does not require you to change your workflow.11:19
nixternalwith bzr however, you flow with the rest of the community as well.  most of the other communities utilize bzr...i personally am all for bzr due to that aspect, plus we don't have to rely on others for access control, speed is getting better, and if we have an issue we can go directly the source w/o issue11:19
lifelessb) bzr *allows* you to change your workflow as you gain comfort11:19
Riddellit doesn't work for me, I lost my svn access and I don't know where to find it11:19
robotgeekdamn thing is stuck in "phase 0/4"11:19
nixternalrobotgeek: sit there, you are grabbing a lot ;)11:20
somerville32Why don't we have a vote or something? haha11:20
robotgeekso, okay. i will put it down as "try it again, and come back to it again"11:20
nixternalthe initial checkouts with bzr are rediculous, i will give yout hat11:20
lifelessrobotgeek: its a large initial pull. Once thats pulled all operations will be local, and much faster11:20
lifelessso I'd like to suggest something11:20
LaserJockwell, like I said, we can try it again now that it's on LP11:20
nixternalif you did a bzr branch, you will have to commit locally and then push your changes as well11:20
lifelessRiddell here knows bzr, and knows your processes.11:20
nixternalif you do a --lightweight, then you use it just like svn11:20
lifelessnixternal: --lightweight over the internet == extremely slow.11:21
nixternalnot on mine it isn't11:21
LaserJockbut really the only problem we've had with svn is access and we were promised that that wouldn't be a problem anymore11:21
lifelessnixternal: I cant recommend that until we deploy the hpss server on launchpad sometime in the new year.11:21
nixternalthen again, i tend to grab the latest from bzr11:21
LaserJockbut so far when I've tried bzr for the doc repo it's been slow and somewhat buggy11:22
lifelessI want to suggest that rather than deciding right now, you all commit to trying bzr, and rather than saying 'too hard' if theres some friction and learning curve, talk with riddel, or any of the folk on #bzr about it11:22
=== nixternal loves bzr
lifelessLaserJock: have you filed bugs on https://launchpad.net/products/bzr ?11:22
LaserJocklifeless: nope, the are usually reported before I ever find them11:23
robotgeekcan we move to next point on agenda?11:23
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lifelessLaserJock: well please highlight those to me, j-a-meinel or poolie11:23
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LaserJockyeah, we need to move on11:23
lifelessLaserJock: supporting ubuntu is quite high on our priority list.11:23
lifelesstchau, thanks for the time.11:23
robotgeekthanks lifeless 11:24
nixternalthanks lifeless 11:24
somerville32thanks :] 11:24
nixternalso, are we going forward with topic-based help?11:24
robotgeekhmm, all i am worried about is upstream. 11:25
robotgeeki really dont want to do all the work of splitting it up, and then not having a tool to view it11:25
LaserJockok, hang on. did we get to what docs we are doing yet?11:25
nixternalsame here11:25
robotgeekLaserJock: i guess not :)11:25
nixternalLaserJock: which docs for TBH?11:26
nixternali am guessing the desktop guides at least for right now11:26
LaserJockwell, are we including any new docs?11:27
nixternali know that we are changing the way the About Kubuntu and the Kubuntu Release Notes with 7.0411:27
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nixternalLaserJock: i think working the desktop guides into a TBH system should be the first goal, to try it out11:28
nixternalinstead of trying multiple docs and it ends up failing miserably11:28
LaserJockheh, what I'm saying is, are we planning on including any additional docs in Feisty?11:28
robotgeeki was wondering about the "Switching from windows" thing too11:29
nixternalthen again...there needs to be a common program to read the TBH docs in order to conform to any uniformity11:29
LaserJockanother thing is media11:29
LaserJockdo we want to keep shipping the docs we have been, what about lulu and HTML11:30
robotgeekLaserJock: do we know if any people bought from lulu?11:30
LaserJockI know of people11:30
nixternali personally enjoy lulu, as i have purchased my printed docs through them in the past..but if im the only one ;p11:30
robotgeekhtml ++, pdf is atrocious (atleast on my machine)11:30
nixternalpdf is atrocius w/o a doubt, but good for those doze users who might be interested11:31
LaserJockgood for any users, IMO11:31
LaserJockBurgwork: you still with us?11:32
=== Riddell goes on holiday, bye all
BurgworkLaserJock: sort of11:32
LaserJockcya Riddell 11:32
nixternalbye Riddell 11:32
nixternalRiddell: i have the smb4k updates as well11:32
nixternali will get the packaged and put on revu asap11:32
robotgeeklulu is definetly a lot of work, so if there were not a lot of people using lulu, we can still discuss11:33
robotgeekRiddell: enjoy11:33
nixternalprobably need to do an edgy package and possibly dapper to fix this problem as wel11:33
nixternalcan we get in touch with lulu and see if it is really worth it?11:33
robotgeeki think from memory, mdke and madpilot did a lot of work. (sorry if i missed any others)11:33
LaserJockok, I wanted to throw out an example of a doc that I liked http://maemo.org/platform/docs/pymaemo/python_maemo_howto.html11:34
nixternalthe pdf's on the help server can be printed as well...if a person can't print, take the pdf to your local print shop and for less than 5 they will hook you up11:34
LaserJocknixternal: mdke should have the stats11:34
LaserJocknixternal: he "owns" our lulu account11:34
robotgeekso, we stick with html, pdf and will get stats from mdke and decide a bit later?11:36
LaserJockthat's fine11:36
nixternalLaserJock: i like the layout there as well...you have the single page, and then have the pdf/print options up top11:36
LaserJockwhat I'm more interested in is perhaps we should have HTML/PDF only docs11:37
nixternalwe do don't we? or is there more?11:37
LaserJockwell, the styleguide is the only thing I can think of that we don't ship11:38
nixternalahh, ok11:38
robotgeekLaserJock: you mean only one of the either?11:38
robotgeekby ship, we mean with ubuntu cd ?11:39
nixternalwe do ship to much11:39
somerville32I think more content and less different formats, haha11:39
nixternaldon't know why i have the server guide on my machie default11:39
robotgeekhtml, we should ship by default. maybe a link to pdf to download from the net?11:40
somerville32Like, there is no documentation on how to configure pppoe connection (ie. ADSL)11:40
=== somerville32 nods.
LaserJockrobotgeek: not what media to ship, what docs to ship11:40
nixternalrobotgeek: we have to consider those w/o internet though as well11:40
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robotgeekoh okay, sorry11:41
LaserJockthe server guide is also best as a CLI resource11:41
nixternalman serverguide ;)11:41
nixternalor 11:41
nixternalinfo serverguide11:41
LaserJockor perhaps lynx serverguide11:41
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nixternalinfo would be better as we can do linking11:41
robotgeekdo we ship packaging guide with default ubuntu?11:41
LaserJockubuntu and kubuntu11:41
robotgeekmaybe that is not necessary, because we dont ship a compiler by defaul anyways?11:42
LaserJockyou don't have to have a compiler, but you do need other tools11:42
robotgeektrue. all that you have to install anyways, maybe we mention where to download or install packaging guide in both desktop guides?11:42
somerville32Personally, I enjoyed reading the packaging guide when my internet was broken, haha11:42
LaserJockwhat I'm trying to get at here is, what do we want the users to see?11:43
robotgeekpersonally, i would just have the desktop guide, and that's about it. 11:43
LaserJockand how do we get it to them11:43
somerville32Well, I think how-to configure the net is very very important11:43
somerville32And it is lacking right now11:43
somerville32Once people get on the internet, there is a ton of resources available to them.11:44
nixternaland that will get implemented eventually11:44
LaserJockhere's the other thing, are people really using the shipped docs?11:44
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nixternalLaserJock: we need to figure out what is up with the TBH. people push it, and thats it so far..what all needs to be done on our end?  we need to figure out if we are redesigning, or staying the course ;p11:44
LaserJockI don't really see any big thing with TBH11:45
robotgeeki doubt it, from the questions i get on irc. i swear, we need a Help icon on the desktop!11:45
LaserJockwe got a help icon on the panel with Edgy11:45
nixternalLaserJock: with the shipped docs, i hear about a 50/50 prospective on that...people like us who have been using the system long enough don't, but our switchers or newbs do11:45
LaserJockI believe11:45
nixternaland Caroline Ford obviously ;)11:45
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robotgeekwho is Caroline Ford? /me missed the joke!11:46
LaserJockis it better to give people the essentials they need to get a functioning computer11:46
nixternalrobotgeek: she is the best ghost proofreader the docteam has11:46
LaserJockand then do the rest online11:46
nixternalLaserJock: i say yes to that, BUT..what about those w/o the internet? do we remain considerate, or do we go logical11:47
robotgeeknixternal: as far as Kubuntu is concerned, i think we want to talk upstream to see if it is feasible to implement topic based help, if it is: we move to TBH, else: we stay current11:47
nixternallogical is providing the new user with everything they need to get up and running11:47
LaserJockrobotgeek: why can't you do it now?11:47
nixternalrobotgeek: as of right now, it is feasible, but who is going to do the work?11:48
nixternali don't think KHelpCenter is solid enough11:48
robotgeeki meant implementing it in time for Feisty. 11:48
nixternalnever honestly11:48
nixternalnobody has anything good to push on it..all i have continued to see is talk, no action yet11:48
nixternalunless something is going on behind the scenes that i don't know of11:48
LaserJockok, but I really don't understand the problem here11:49
LaserJockthe proposal is to kinda restructure the Desktop Guide so that it is more topical11:49
LaserJockand on the frontpage show that more11:49
nixternalLaserJock: the problem would be do we continue utilizing the docbook the way we always have, or do we take a risk with a new way of doing it so it can work with the topic based help11:49
robotgeekLaserJock: the problem is, we can create the TBH docs, but if it can't be viewed in the help center, its kinda useless. 11:49
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LaserJockI really don't get the problem, perhaps I'm dense11:50
nixternalor maybe i am ;)11:51
nixternalim going with the latter11:51
robotgeekokay, now i am confused :)11:51
LaserJockwell, so we have the desktop guides11:51
LaserJockthat are written in more of a traditional, book-like fashion11:52
LaserJockso we want to restructure it into more bite-sized topical chunks11:53
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LaserJockthat's doable11:53
robotgeekso if i get it straight, the tools to view the docs will not change? (no search,etc)11:54
LaserJockso the only problem I see is how do we make a frontpage for people11:54
nixternali think graphically enticing and to the point11:54
nixternalare you here for help? do you want to learn more about the operating system? history lesson? etc, etc, etc...11:55
LaserJockso perhaps we will need general category pages11:55
somerville32I don't think history is important11:55
somerville32Well, it is11:55
somerville32but not important enough to ship11:55
nixternali just used it for filler11:55
=== somerville32 nods.
nixternalwell, it has been important to ship since day one though, about ubuntu is a history lesson11:56
nixternalalthough, those are getting merged into ubiquity11:56
nixternalso when you install you can read all of that now11:56
robotgeeki dont really see an issue with moving the KDG to topic based help, if the end user can view the docs. i guess i had misunderstood11:56
nixternalsame here robotgeek11:56
LaserJockso the only real issue is how to get a khelpcenter front page that works well with our more TBH docs11:58
robotgeekon the issue of which docs to ship, is the general consensus to ship only desktop guides (we can ask for input on ml too)11:58
LaserJocknot necessarily11:58
LaserJockit looks like the server guide will be included in the Topic Based Helpl11:58
nixternalLaserJock: so the front page will be a seperate doc/entity?11:58
nixternalthat will then link to the kdg?11:58
nixternalor into the chunks11:59
LaserJockthe chunks11:59
LaserJockor something like that11:59
LaserJockthat's what the Kubuntu guys get to figure out :-)11:59
nixternalwhy not the ubuntu guys?11:59
LaserJockcause they will be doing the same thing with yelp11:59
somerville32What about Xubuntu?12:00
nixternalkubuntu guys got it made, we read html, no xml parsing here ;)12:00
robotgeeknixternal: heh12:00
nixternalsomerville32: that is up to the xubuntu team to decide12:00
nixternalthey should be in with all of this as well..there is way to much seperation12:00
LaserJockhehe, my bzr is still trying to branch the docs12:00
=== somerville32 nods.
nixternaland every project has something different12:00
robotgeekLaserJock: i cancelled mine12:00
somerville32I was told that the main doc group encompassed xubuntu as well12:01
LaserJockwell, who does Xubuntu docs?12:01
somerville32No one really12:01
nixternalone person that i have seen12:01
somerville32John Levin apparently a contact12:01
somerville32But he told me differently12:01
LaserJockwell, I don't know what they use to view the help12:01
LaserJockbut it'd be nice if we were all consistent12:01
=== somerville32 nods.
nixternalnot only consistant, but present12:02
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LaserJocknixternal: it looks to me like khelpcenter would need some kind of wrapper doc12:02
nixternalLaserJock: it wouldn't be any different that yelps, just that we build ours out to html12:03
LaserJockwell, it's tough to build a doc community12:03
nixternaland just as tough to get them all together for a meeting as well12:03
LaserJocknixternal: I"m not sure, I get the impression that yelp is pretty beastly for the frontpage12:03
LaserJockusually they have to work with upstream to make changes12:04
nixternali didn't know that12:04
nixternalso maybe KHelpCenter isn't all that bad then ;)12:04
LaserJockkhelpcenter is just like an index or tree view12:04
robotgeekkhelpcenter opens up a list of docs. we can't change taht, really. we can decide how to present the desktop gudie frontpage12:04
LaserJockyelp actually has a Frontpage12:04
nixternalOMG! I just realised I stood someone up tonight..i heard them countdown the lighting of the chicago tree on tv...oh well ;)12:04
LaserJockrobotgeek: more like a Kubuntu frontpage12:05
nixternaloh..ok, i know what you are saying now12:05
nixternalthat is easy to do12:05
robotgeekLaserJock: maybe we can get khelpcenter to open up a different page, lol12:05
nixternalwe can hide the documentation from the list for just a single front page12:05
nixternaloooh...ya, i forgot khelpcenter shows all of the kde docs12:06
robotgeekokay, that works for us kubuntu guys, i think. 12:06
nixternaland we don't want to hide those..those are very important12:06
nixternalbut when khelp center opens..i got it now12:06
nixternalrobotgeek: we have a buttload of work possibly ahead of us...12:06
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robotgeeknixternal: heh, yeah. 12:06
LaserJockthe least difficult thing, I think, would be to create a wrapper doc12:07
LaserJockand only link to that in khelpcenter12:07
nixternalwe can work on the docs now, and then when Riddell gets back from holliday we can speak with him about changing how khelpcenter opens12:07
nixternalthat will upset upstream i am sure12:07
robotgeeksounds like a plan12:07
LaserJockno, it wouldn't touch upstream12:07
LaserJockonly Kubuntu12:07
nixternalthey already get upset when we funktify default settings12:07
nixternalya LaserJock, and kubuntu continues to stray away from kde principles that way though12:08
LaserJockall I'm saying is only have 1 doc for Kubuntu docs12:08
nixternalunless, it is as easy as a khelpcenterrc file12:08
LaserJockit's as easy as the .desktop we ship12:08
nixternalLaserJock: thats all there is going to be from us..About and Release are part of ubiquity now12:08
nixternalwell, the .desktop won't change the layout of khelpcenter12:09
LaserJockyou're not quite getting what I'm saying I don't think12:09
LaserJockkubuntu-doc ships *1* .desktop that opens up *1* doc12:09
nixternali got what you are saying..and to do that would be to ditch khelpcenter, or ditch/hide the kde docs12:09
LaserJockthat then provides the links to the TBH12:09
LaserJockit doesn't touch upstream12:10
nixternalok, and then have that doc link to all of the kde docs, or open up khelpcenter..possibly a different help viewer for kubuntu alone12:10
LaserJockyou're making this harder than I'm saying12:11
nixternalright now, when you click help in kubuntu, khelpcenter pops up with a link to every "topic" which then links to "subtopics" which then link to "handbooks" ;)12:11
robotgeekis that right, LaserJock ?12:11
LaserJockok, so I open khelpcenter12:11
nixternalwhat you are saying is have it open to Kubuntu TBH, and that is all the user sees, and then they can access the rest from within this 1 doc12:11
LaserJockI get a list of the Kubuntu docs12:12
LaserJockif I click on kubuntu12:12
nixternalyou get more than kubuntu docs in khelpcenter12:12
LaserJockdoesn't matter12:12
nixternalkubuntu, and every kde doc possible ;)12:12
LaserJockI'm saying you click on "Kubuntu Documents"12:12
nixternalbut when it opens, that "welcome" screen is what we want?12:12
LaserJockyou get a lists of docs12:13
nixternaljust change that?12:13
LaserJockinstead of having all those docs you could have just 112:13
robotgeekshould be possible, we khelpcenter does file arguemnts, i guess12:13

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