[09:30] <blaa> hi all
[02:37] <imbrandon> @schedule us/chicago
[02:40] <tonyyarusso> Looks like the bot hates you
[02:40] <tonyyarusso> @schedule chicago
[02:40] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
[06:55] <Express> je lui demandait ;) :D
[10:10] <mdke_> evening
[10:10] <robotgeek> hello, doccers :)
[10:10] <mdke_> who else is around?
[10:11] <robotgeek> hmm, LaserJock said he will will back soonish. running an errand or so
[10:11] <mdke_> we need an agenda
[10:12] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
[10:12] <nixternal> there is the KDG
[10:13] <Riddell> ooh, docs meeting?
[10:13] <nixternal> yes sir
[10:13] <Riddell> put me down for pimping bzr on the agenda
[10:14] <Burgwork> one of the bzr devs just showed me an online pqm tools
[10:14] <mdke> go ahead and add things to the agenda
[10:14] <Burgwork> however, I think we should be looking into everything on moin, personally
[10:14] <Riddell> mdke: how can I add stuff if we don't have one?
[10:15] <mdke> Riddell: well, you edit the page, and type something in
[10:15] <Riddell> mm hmm, which page?
[10:15] <mdke> wiki:DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[10:18] <tonyyarusso> I only have 40 minutes of lappy battery, so hopefully this is quick
[10:19] <mdke> shall we get cracking?
[10:19] <Burgwork> sounds good
[10:19] <robotgeek> +1
[10:19] <mdke> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[10:19] <mdke> refresh it if you haven't in the last few seconds
[10:19] <mdke> let's discuss briefly the specifications we have for feisty so far
[10:20] <mdke> the most significant one is TopicBasedHelp. Have people had a chance to read it since the updates the other day?
[10:20] <tonyyarusso> I haven't - URL?
[10:20] <Burgwork> sort of
[10:20] <mdke> tonyyarusso: wiki:TopicBasedHelp
[10:20] <nixternal> i briefed it yes
[10:21] <mdke> what do people think?
[10:21] <tonyyarusso> I like the concept of having short answers available, but I don't want it to be to the exclusion of manual-style docs.
[10:22] <tonyyarusso> I think we should have both ways to look up quick answers, and something that caters to the "I'm going to sit down and learn this over the weekend" crowd
[10:22] <robotgeek> i dont mind it at all if it helps searching for docs
[10:22] <mdke> the idea isn't to exclude anything, just to split up the existing sections presentationally
[10:22] <Burgwork> sure, can we make each page a moin page?
[10:22] <tonyyarusso> If they can share content, great, but that's a technical issue and I don't know how they work internally
[10:22] <robotgeek> i feel that our doc style kinda tends towards that, anyways
[10:22] <nixternal> Burgwork: that is a good idea actually
[10:23] <tonyyarusso> mdke: I don't want to split them entirely though - I actually like the way they are now
[10:23] <nixternal> go from moin2xml
[10:24] <Burgwork> mdke: thoughts on that?
[10:24] <robotgeek> nixternal: does that work reliably now?
[10:24] <Burgwork> is moin2xml mature enough?
[10:24] <nixternal> from what i can tell, it is breaking up our current sections, and adding a top level faq section that im guessing will link to the topic headins
[10:25] <nixternal> Burgwork: actually, no it isn't...any of the wiki2xml's scripts are not good
[10:25] <nixternal> although, copy and paste isn't all that difficult ;)
[10:27] <tonyyarusso> In short, it sounds like a good goal at least from the user perspective; dunno how specifically to get there
[10:27] <robotgeek> yeah, i am not sure if any kubuntu doc team member has started talking upstream about it. (i havent)
[10:27] <nixternal> thats what we have to work out, as it will cause us to utilize a different layout than what we currently use..however it shouldn't be all that difficult
[10:27] <nixternal> robotgeek: i have
[10:28] <nixternal> upstream, ala KDE, want topic-based help as well, but hasn't been really looked into as much
[10:28] <nixternal> i know there is a supposed khelpcenter restructuring plan, but implementation or due date is unk
[10:29] <Burgwork> we need something for feisty
[10:29] <Burgwork> I think the best way is to do moin2xml
[10:29] <Burgwork> I know Fedora is using it already
[10:29] <nixternal> when is our string freeze btw?
[10:30] <LaserJock> nixternal: check the schedule
[10:30] <nixternal> March 8
[10:30] <nixternal> haha, i was looking dead at the schedule at that
[10:31] <robotgeek> i suggest we make a list of things that don't work well with moin2xml, maybe we can get someone to fix it for us?
[10:31] <LaserJock> how are we going to get it into moin in the first place?
[10:32] <Burgwork> manual merging
[10:32] <Burgwork> identify a toc we want to ship and then work on those pieces
[10:33] <nixternal> i did a moin2xml with the release pages we were doing during edgy, and there were a lot of manual fixes that had to be done
[10:34] <Burgwork> lets document all those things
[10:34] <nixternal> i think we can add to the script as well in order to fix some of those issue with tags
[10:34] <Burgwork> is the converter in LP?
[10:34] <nixternal> probably just a bunch of sed/awk
[10:34] <LaserJock> fedora isn't it?
[10:35] <nixternal> i have been using the converter on the moinmoin webpage
[10:35] <Burgwork> yep, but is it uploading to Ubuntu?
[10:35] <Burgwork> ok, shall we assume we are going with moin2xml?
[10:35] <nixternal> either that or copy and paste
[10:35] <nixternal> manual merging..which im thinking will be just as quick
[10:36] <Burgwork> manual merging for the initial docbook --> moin
[10:36] <nixternal> with the moin2xml style has to be very strict...i do know that is a recommendation
[10:36] <Burgwork> we can acls if needed
[10:36] <LaserJock> I do like the idea having people be able to edit a wiki page to contribute
[10:36] <LaserJock> giving edit access on the wiki is much easeir then svn access I think
[10:36] <Burgwork> so if we are going moin, we need the following done:
[10:36] <Burgwork> merge docbook into moin
[10:37] <Burgwork> decide on list of topics to ship
[10:37] <Burgwork> start test convertions to work bugs out of the converter
[10:37] <LaserJock> well, I'm kinda feeling like we are getting ahead of ourselves
[10:38] <Burgwork> how so?
[10:38] <Burgwork> we need to make a decision
[10:38] <LaserJock> have we decided what docs and in what forms we want them?
[10:38] <Burgwork> the wiki is getting edits while the docbook is not
[10:38] <nixternal> i know the kubuntu docs spec was approved, however if we are going for a unified layout, that has to change (the kdg spec)
[10:39] <Burgwork> ok
[10:40] <robotgeek> nixternal: what do you mean, unified layout? for udg and kdg?
[10:40] <Burgwork> if we do go with moin, we need to reconsider how we do doc on the wiki
[10:40] <nixternal> thats what the topic-based help spec calls for
[10:40] <nixternal> Kubuntu team members should get the packaging right so that the Kubuntu documents take on the structure decided above.
[10:41] <nixternal> but when it comes to Kubuntu based stuff, there is one man, mr. Riddell :)
[10:41] <robotgeek> heh
[10:41] <tonyyarusso> Does that give us enough direction to move on?
[10:42] <nixternal> heheh
[10:42] <nixternal> The Grand Puba
[10:42] <robotgeek> one sec, so essentially we will be editing stuff on the wiki, and merging it back in? 
[10:42] <nixternal> yes robotgeek 
[10:42] <nixternal> which means we will need to watch the pages closely
[10:42] <somerville32> What about Xubuntu stuff?
[10:43] <robotgeek> okay. we will definetly need policies on when and how to convert/sync back etc. 
[10:43] <LaserJock> well, we would use ACLs I'm guessing
[10:43] <nixternal> somerville32: i was wondering the same thing, but everything i have seen is ubuntu and kubuntu ;(
[10:43] <LaserJock> maybe a little Edubuntu too ;-)
[10:43] <tonyyarusso> To be discussed with their respective teams more later?
[10:43] <nixternal> ya, dedfinitely Edubuntu
[10:43] <robotgeek> does xubuntu not use gnome's help manager?
[10:44] <LaserJock> ok, but I think we are still going off
[10:44] <LaserJock> robotgeek: I would think not
[10:44] <nixternal> LaserJock: if you use ACLs why not continue using the SVN then?
[10:44] <nixternal> essentially, the SVN has that all taken care of
[10:44] <LaserJock> we can control the ACLs much better
[10:44] <nixternal> with moinmoin?
[10:44] <LaserJock> sure
[10:44] <nixternal> i guess you need a super power to be able to do that
[10:44] <LaserJock> sure
[10:44] <nixternal> hehe
[10:44] <LaserJock> which we have I believe
[10:45] <LaserJock> on the other hand you have to get a Canonical admin to do svn
[10:45] <nixternal> im sure either Burgwork or mdke does
[10:46] <LaserJock> but I'm still thinking we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit
[10:46] <Burgwork> the advantage with moin is with ease of editing
[10:46] <Burgwork> nothing to do with access control
[10:47] <LaserJock> well, I think it might be another advantage
[10:47] <nixternal> ya, that is why i said we will have to watch those pages like a hawk
[10:47] <tonyyarusso> (Any chance we can rearrange the order of the Agenda and talk about Open Week next?  That's the only other thing on there I'd like to hear about, but I only have 10 minutes of battery left.)
[10:47] <Burgwork> open week is this week
[10:47] <Burgwork> lets talk about that right now
[10:47] <LaserJock> k
[10:47] <tonyyarusso> Awesome
[10:47] <nixternal> forgot the "and listens" part
[10:47] <Burgwork> we basically need a todo list, with people to answer
[10:47] <Burgwork> so here is what I propose:
[10:48] <Burgwork> fix up the wikitodo and just get people working on that
[10:48] <LaserJock> where did mdke go?
[10:48] <Burgwork> lets identify high visibility but low quality pages and then work on them
[10:48] <Burgwork> such as our installation guide
[10:48] <tonyyarusso> I'd like to propose that we include some basic wiki howto session, syntax/formatting, how to create pages, etc. for people that would like to start writing/editing docs (both ones discussed above and otherwise), but have never used a wiki before.
[10:48] <Burgwork> yes, that is an excellent idea
[10:48] <Burgwork> I can lead a mediawiki2moin session
[10:49] <tonyyarusso> For those who have experience on wikipedia, etc.?
[10:49] <Burgwork> yes
[10:49] <tonyyarusso> Sounds good
[10:49] <LaserJock> ok, so we have 2 hrs right?
[10:50] <Burgwork> we do? I have not read the OpenWeek thingy
[10:50] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:50] <Burgwork> right
[10:50] <tonyyarusso> Is the /participate page part of our responsibility, or does someone else cover that?  If it's us, make sure that lots of possibilities are listed
[10:50] <Burgwork> on the website?
[10:50] <tonyyarusso> yes
[10:50] <LaserJock> 1 hr on wed. and 1 hr on sat.
[10:50] <Burgwork> sort of
[10:51] <Burgwork> both mdke and myself can edit the website
[10:51] <Burgwork> we need to munge in that ContributeToUbuntu and the HelpingUbuntu pages into that one
[10:51] <tonyyarusso> Okay.  It's probably good as is, but maybe just make one sweep over it to make sure things are included
[10:52] <LaserJock> ok so we have probably 3 main thing
[10:52] <LaserJock> 1) intro to doc team, what we do and how to get involved
[10:52] <LaserJock> 2) wiki docs
[10:52] <LaserJock> 3) shipped docs
[10:53] <tonyyarusso> basically
[10:53] <Burgwork> yep
[10:53] <Burgwork> I think there is enough work with just the wik
[10:53] <Burgwork> wiki
[10:54] <tonyyarusso> Probably send out something to the ml asking for help going over and touching up high visibility wiki pages over the weekend
[10:54] <robotgeek> sure, its a good time to fix docs
[10:56] <Burgwork> yep
[10:56] <tonyyarusso>  Is that all we have on that then?
[10:57] <robotgeek> looks like :)
[10:57] <LaserJock> well, mdke needs to know what's going on, we should have a ML thread on it
[10:57] <robotgeek> sure, i am maintaining minutes :)
[10:57] <tonyyarusso> Yeah
[10:57] <tonyyarusso> good move robotgeek 
[10:58] <somerville32> Can I add an item to the agenda? haha
[10:58] <robotgeek> somerville32: sure, we can discuess it at the end, i guess
[10:58] <somerville32> Perfect.
[10:58] <robotgeek> Riddell: guess you are up 
[10:59] <tonyyarusso> And I'm out.  Have a good rest of the meeting folks.
[10:59] <robotgeek> tonyyarusso: later
[11:01] <Riddell> mm?
[11:01] <robotgeek> Riddell: pimping bzr :)
[11:01] <Riddell> oh well, it's dead cool
[11:01] <Riddell> but might be redundant if the whole thing is moving to moin
[11:02] <Riddell> however, incase it's not, bzr is much more flexible than svn
[11:02] <LaserJock> but it's also messier for a project this size
[11:02] <Riddell> you won't have to rely on sysadmins for access control, and those without access can easily branch and have changed merged in
[11:02] <Riddell> how so?
[11:03] <LaserJock> having one repo
[11:03] <LaserJock> simple
[11:03] <LaserJock> fast
[11:03] <Riddell> bzr is only 1 repo
[11:03] <Riddell> not sure what you mean
[11:04] <LaserJock> well, I'm imagining you'd need 1 branch for each doc
[11:04] <LaserJock> or something similar
[11:04] <Riddell> it's also simpler than svn in parts, and not more complex anywhere
[11:04] <Riddell> you wouldn't
[11:04] <Riddell> however it's not as fast, you're right there
[11:04] <Riddell> but that's being worked on
[11:04] <robotgeek> we don't really branch too much, only on releases. 
[11:04] <Riddell> exactly
[11:04] <LaserJock> it's unpractical for people to carry around 200MB repos
[11:04] <Riddell> that wouldn't change
[11:04] <LaserJock> robotgeek: that's not what I mean
[11:04] <Riddell> then you can do a checkout --lightweight
[11:05] <LaserJock> I think that is still lightweight
[11:05] <lifeless> hi guys
[11:05] <lifeless> can I help
[11:05] <LaserJock> I mean, I'm all for bzr
[11:05] <LaserJock> but I've already tried
[11:06] <LaserJock> and it's slow and difficult for people to use in this instance
[11:06] <Riddell> lifeless: I'm trying to presuade them to move from svn to bzr, now that svn imports are working for their svn archive on launchpad
[11:06] <lifeless> Riddell++
[11:06] <Riddell> LaserJock: what's difficult about it?
[11:06] <LaserJock> well, people have a hard time figuring out where to put things
[11:06] <LaserJock> and what the workflow is
[11:07] <Riddell> LaserJock: maybe you havn't tried it in a while, you can do a bzr checkout now, you don't have to branch unless you actually want to
[11:07] <lifeless> LaserJock: can you be more precise. Perhaps an example ?
[11:07] <Riddell> it's exactfly the same workflow as svn
[11:07] <lifeless> LaserJock: i.e. 'when I wanted to add fnor.svg, I did not know what to do'
[11:08] <Riddell> but if you want to branch, if you're doing something experimental or you don't have commit rights, then it's far easier to do so
[11:08] <LaserJock> ok, well there's 2 things
[11:08] <Riddell> try it now!  bzr checkout sftp://<lpuser>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox
[11:08] <lifeless> LaserJock: go on
[11:08] <LaserJock> if we do it in "svn-like" mode then there is not much of a distinct advantage for us
[11:09] <Riddell> I've pointed out two major advantages
[11:09] <LaserJock> perhaps
[11:09] <lifeless> LaserJock: you said there are two problems where its harder
[11:10] <lifeless> LaserJock: I'd love it if you could enlarge on that
[11:10] <LaserJock> well, speed is always an issue
[11:10] <LaserJock> granted it's getting better
[11:11] <LaserJock> the other thing was access
[11:11] <lifeless> 'access' ?
[11:11] <LaserJock> which hopefully LP will improve
[11:11] <Riddell> anyone in the ubuntu-doc team can commit to that sandbox archive (go ahead and try!)
[11:11] <LaserJock> heh
[11:11] <lifeless> LaserJock: what do you mean 'access' ?
[11:11] <LaserJock> bzr on LP is not exactly user friendly
[11:12] <Riddell> it's a damn site better than svn controlled by a sysadmin
[11:12] <LaserJock> lifeless: both who gets to commit and what to do with people who can't commit
[11:12] <lifeless> Riddell: chill out man, lets work through this :)
[11:12] <LaserJock> yeah, I mean I'm with you guys
[11:12] <LaserJock> I love bzr
[11:12] <lifeless> LaserJock: I'm not clear what you mean. Give me an example please.
[11:13] <LaserJock> ok, so how is a non-docteam member supposed to use bzr?
[11:13] <lifeless> LaserJock: i.e. 'the doc-team leaders cannot control who can commit to the branch'
[11:13] <lifeless> LaserJock: bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox
[11:13] <LaserJock> ok, then what do they do with it?
[11:13] <robotgeek> Riddell: i get  ERROR: Not a branch blah
[11:13] <lifeless> LaserJock: you tell me, give me a use case,  I'll give you the bzr commands.
[11:14] <somerville32> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: /home/ubuntu/sftp:/cody-somerville@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox/
[11:14] <robotgeek> nvm
[11:14] <lifeless> somerville32: install python-paramiko
[11:14] <lifeless> somerville32: or add '/'after the ':'
[11:14] <robotgeek> lifeless: your command works, ridell's does not
[11:14] <robotgeek> i see what you mean by it's slow :)
[11:14] <lifeless> robotgeek: you need to put your lp username in riddells command, or be in the ubuntu-doc team
[11:15] <lifeless> robotgeek: you're probably not in the ubuntu-doc team.
[11:15] <robotgeek> lifeless: no, i am. 
[11:15] <LaserJock> lifeless: Joe wants to contribute to the docs, so he grabs the LP branch but doesn't know what to do with it afterwords
[11:15] <lifeless> LaserJock: cmon, what does he do with svn today ?
[11:15] <lifeless> LaserJock: I'll be he makes some changes, runs svn diff and posts the diff right ?
[11:15] <LaserJock> he sends a patch to the doc team mailing list
[11:16] <lifeless> LaserJock: so with bzr, he can do *exactly that* today. Nothing new to learn.
[11:16] <robotgeek> does bzr help in "automating" that process?
[11:16] <LaserJock> lifeless: so nothing to gain with bzr
[11:16] <lifeless> LaserJock: but he can also start doing more capable things. like:
[11:17] <lifeless> making a new branch, which (s)he can now commit to. Then the diff is generate by doing 'bzr bundle', and thats a human readable diff with extra data so that you can see their commits, and track renames etc
[11:17] <lifeless> also it handles binary file changes like images
[11:18] <somerville32> I got more errors
[11:18] <lifeless> LaserJock: so going back to your point, could I reasonably paraphrase it as 'we have no workflow figured out for this new tool' ?
[11:18] <LaserJock> lifeless: more like "we don't want to change workflow as it works ok now" but yeah
[11:18] <robotgeek> lifeless: yes, essentially that
[11:18] <lifeless> so my point here is two fold.
[11:18] <LaserJock> we can certainly try again
[11:19] <LaserJock> I've already tried once
[11:19] <lifeless> a) bzr does not require you to change your workflow.
[11:19] <nixternal> with bzr however, you flow with the rest of the community as well.  most of the other communities utilize bzr...i personally am all for bzr due to that aspect, plus we don't have to rely on others for access control, speed is getting better, and if we have an issue we can go directly the source w/o issue
[11:19] <lifeless> b) bzr *allows* you to change your workflow as you gain comfort
[11:19] <Riddell> it doesn't work for me, I lost my svn access and I don't know where to find it
[11:19] <robotgeek> damn thing is stuck in "phase 0/4"
[11:20] <nixternal> robotgeek: sit there, you are grabbing a lot ;)
[11:20] <somerville32> Why don't we have a vote or something? haha
[11:20] <robotgeek> so, okay. i will put it down as "try it again, and come back to it again"
[11:20] <nixternal> the initial checkouts with bzr are rediculous, i will give yout hat
[11:20] <lifeless> robotgeek: its a large initial pull. Once thats pulled all operations will be local, and much faster
[11:20] <lifeless> so I'd like to suggest something
[11:20] <LaserJock> well, like I said, we can try it again now that it's on LP
[11:20] <nixternal> if you did a bzr branch, you will have to commit locally and then push your changes as well
[11:20] <lifeless> Riddell here knows bzr, and knows your processes.
[11:20] <nixternal> if you do a --lightweight, then you use it just like svn
[11:21] <lifeless> nixternal: --lightweight over the internet == extremely slow.
[11:21] <nixternal> not on mine it isn't
[11:21] <LaserJock> but really the only problem we've had with svn is access and we were promised that that wouldn't be a problem anymore
[11:21] <lifeless> nixternal: I cant recommend that until we deploy the hpss server on launchpad sometime in the new year.
[11:21] <nixternal> then again, i tend to grab the latest from bzr
[11:21] <lifeless> anyway
[11:22] <LaserJock> but so far when I've tried bzr for the doc repo it's been slow and somewhat buggy
[11:22] <lifeless> I want to suggest that rather than deciding right now, you all commit to trying bzr, and rather than saying 'too hard' if theres some friction and learning curve, talk with riddel, or any of the folk on #bzr about it
[11:22] <LaserJock> sure
[11:22] <robotgeek> ++
[11:22] <lifeless> LaserJock: have you filed bugs on https://launchpad.net/products/bzr ?
[11:23] <LaserJock> lifeless: nope, the are usually reported before I ever find them
[11:23] <robotgeek> can we move to next point on agenda?
[11:23] <lifeless> LaserJock: well please highlight those to me, j-a-meinel or poolie
[11:23] <robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
[11:23] <LaserJock> yeah, we need to move on
[11:23] <lifeless> LaserJock: supporting ubuntu is quite high on our priority list.
[11:23] <lifeless> tchau, thanks for the time.
[11:24] <robotgeek> thanks lifeless 
[11:24] <nixternal> thanks lifeless 
[11:24] <somerville32> thanks :] 
[11:24] <nixternal> so, are we going forward with topic-based help?
[11:25] <robotgeek> hmm, all i am worried about is upstream. 
[11:25] <robotgeek> i really dont want to do all the work of splitting it up, and then not having a tool to view it
[11:25] <LaserJock> ok, hang on. did we get to what docs we are doing yet?
[11:25] <nixternal> same here
[11:25] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i guess not :)
[11:26] <nixternal> LaserJock: which docs for TBH?
[11:26] <nixternal> i am guessing the desktop guides at least for right now
[11:27] <LaserJock> well, are we including any new docs?
[11:27] <nixternal> i know that we are changing the way the About Kubuntu and the Kubuntu Release Notes with 7.04
[11:28] <nixternal> LaserJock: i think working the desktop guides into a TBH system should be the first goal, to try it out
[11:28] <nixternal> instead of trying multiple docs and it ends up failing miserably
[11:28] <robotgeek> ++
[11:28] <LaserJock> heh, what I'm saying is, are we planning on including any additional docs in Feisty?
[11:29] <robotgeek> i was wondering about the "Switching from windows" thing too
[11:29] <nixternal> then again...there needs to be a common program to read the TBH docs in order to conform to any uniformity
[11:29] <LaserJock> another thing is media
[11:30] <LaserJock> do we want to keep shipping the docs we have been, what about lulu and HTML
[11:30] <robotgeek> LaserJock: do we know if any people bought from lulu?
[11:30] <LaserJock> I know of people
[11:30] <nixternal> i personally enjoy lulu, as i have purchased my printed docs through them in the past..but if im the only one ;p
[11:30] <robotgeek> html ++, pdf is atrocious (atleast on my machine)
[11:31] <nixternal> pdf is atrocius w/o a doubt, but good for those doze users who might be interested
[11:31] <LaserJock> good for any users, IMO
[11:32] <LaserJock> Burgwork: you still with us?
[11:32] <Burgwork> LaserJock: sort of
[11:32] <LaserJock> cya Riddell 
[11:32] <nixternal> bye Riddell 
[11:32] <nixternal> Riddell: i have the smb4k updates as well
[11:32] <nixternal> i will get the packaged and put on revu asap
[11:33] <robotgeek> lulu is definetly a lot of work, so if there were not a lot of people using lulu, we can still discuss
[11:33] <robotgeek> Riddell: enjoy
[11:33] <nixternal> probably need to do an edgy package and possibly dapper to fix this problem as wel
[11:33] <nixternal> l
[11:33] <nixternal> can we get in touch with lulu and see if it is really worth it?
[11:33] <robotgeek> i think from memory, mdke and madpilot did a lot of work. (sorry if i missed any others)
[11:34] <LaserJock> ok, I wanted to throw out an example of a doc that I liked http://maemo.org/platform/docs/pymaemo/python_maemo_howto.html
[11:34] <nixternal> the pdf's on the help server can be printed as well...if a person can't print, take the pdf to your local print shop and for less than 5 they will hook you up
[11:34] <LaserJock> nixternal: mdke should have the stats
[11:34] <LaserJock> nixternal: he "owns" our lulu account
[11:36] <robotgeek> so, we stick with html, pdf and will get stats from mdke and decide a bit later?
[11:36] <LaserJock> that's fine
[11:36] <nixternal> LaserJock: i like the layout there as well...you have the single page, and then have the pdf/print options up top
[11:37] <LaserJock> what I'm more interested in is perhaps we should have HTML/PDF only docs
[11:37] <nixternal> we do don't we? or is there more?
[11:38] <LaserJock> well, the styleguide is the only thing I can think of that we don't ship
[11:38] <nixternal> ahh, ok
[11:38] <robotgeek> LaserJock: you mean only one of the either?
[11:39] <robotgeek> by ship, we mean with ubuntu cd ?
[11:39] <LaserJock> yes
[11:39] <nixternal> we do ship to much
[11:39] <somerville32> I think more content and less different formats, haha
[11:39] <nixternal> don't know why i have the server guide on my machie default
[11:40] <robotgeek> html, we should ship by default. maybe a link to pdf to download from the net?
[11:40] <somerville32> Like, there is no documentation on how to configure pppoe connection (ie. ADSL)
[11:40] <LaserJock> robotgeek: not what media to ship, what docs to ship
[11:40] <nixternal> robotgeek: we have to consider those w/o internet though as well
[11:40] <LaserJock> right
[11:41] <robotgeek> oh okay, sorry
[11:41] <LaserJock> the server guide is also best as a CLI resource
[11:41] <nixternal> man serverguide ;)
[11:41] <nixternal> or 
[11:41] <nixternal> info serverguide
[11:41] <LaserJock> or perhaps lynx serverguide
[11:41] <nixternal> info would be better as we can do linking
[11:41] <robotgeek> do we ship packaging guide with default ubuntu?
[11:41] <LaserJock> yes
[11:41] <LaserJock> ubuntu and kubuntu
[11:42] <robotgeek> maybe that is not necessary, because we dont ship a compiler by defaul anyways?
[11:42] <LaserJock> you don't have to have a compiler, but you do need other tools
[11:42] <robotgeek> true. all that you have to install anyways, maybe we mention where to download or install packaging guide in both desktop guides?
[11:42] <somerville32> Personally, I enjoyed reading the packaging guide when my internet was broken, haha
[11:43] <LaserJock> what I'm trying to get at here is, what do we want the users to see?
[11:43] <robotgeek> personally, i would just have the desktop guide, and that's about it. 
[11:43] <LaserJock> and how do we get it to them
[11:43] <nixternal> ditto
[11:43] <somerville32> Well, I think how-to configure the net is very very important
[11:43] <somerville32> And it is lacking right now
[11:44] <somerville32> Once people get on the internet, there is a ton of resources available to them.
[11:44] <nixternal> and that will get implemented eventually
[11:44] <LaserJock> here's the other thing, are people really using the shipped docs?
[11:44] <nixternal> LaserJock: we need to figure out what is up with the TBH. people push it, and thats it so far..what all needs to be done on our end?  we need to figure out if we are redesigning, or staying the course ;p
[11:45] <LaserJock> I don't really see any big thing with TBH
[11:45] <robotgeek> i doubt it, from the questions i get on irc. i swear, we need a Help icon on the desktop!
[11:45] <LaserJock> we got a help icon on the panel with Edgy
[11:45] <nixternal> LaserJock: with the shipped docs, i hear about a 50/50 prospective on that...people like us who have been using the system long enough don't, but our switchers or newbs do
[11:45] <LaserJock> I believe
[11:45] <nixternal> and Caroline Ford obviously ;)
[11:45] <LaserJock> heh
[11:46] <robotgeek> who is Caroline Ford? /me missed the joke!
[11:46] <LaserJock> is it better to give people the essentials they need to get a functioning computer
[11:46] <nixternal> robotgeek: she is the best ghost proofreader the docteam has
[11:46] <LaserJock> and then do the rest online
[11:47] <nixternal> LaserJock: i say yes to that, BUT..what about those w/o the internet? do we remain considerate, or do we go logical
[11:47] <robotgeek> nixternal: as far as Kubuntu is concerned, i think we want to talk upstream to see if it is feasible to implement topic based help, if it is: we move to TBH, else: we stay current
[11:47] <nixternal> logical is providing the new user with everything they need to get up and running
[11:47] <LaserJock> robotgeek: why can't you do it now?
[11:48] <nixternal> robotgeek: as of right now, it is feasible, but who is going to do the work?
[11:48] <nixternal> i don't think KHelpCenter is solid enough
[11:48] <robotgeek> i meant implementing it in time for Feisty. 
[11:48] <nixternal> never honestly
[11:48] <nixternal> nobody has anything good to push on it..all i have continued to see is talk, no action yet
[11:48] <nixternal> unless something is going on behind the scenes that i don't know of
[11:49] <LaserJock> ok, but I really don't understand the problem here
[11:49] <LaserJock> the proposal is to kinda restructure the Desktop Guide so that it is more topical
[11:49] <LaserJock> and on the frontpage show that more
[11:49] <nixternal> LaserJock: the problem would be do we continue utilizing the docbook the way we always have, or do we take a risk with a new way of doing it so it can work with the topic based help
[11:49] <robotgeek> LaserJock: the problem is, we can create the TBH docs, but if it can't be viewed in the help center, its kinda useless. 
[11:50] <LaserJock> I really don't get the problem, perhaps I'm dense
[11:51] <nixternal> or maybe i am ;)
[11:51] <nixternal> im going with the latter
[11:51] <robotgeek> okay, now i am confused :)
[11:51] <nixternal> lol
[11:51] <LaserJock> well, so we have the desktop guides
[11:52] <LaserJock> that are written in more of a traditional, book-like fashion
[11:53] <LaserJock> so we want to restructure it into more bite-sized topical chunks
[11:53] <LaserJock> that's doable
[11:54] <robotgeek> so if i get it straight, the tools to view the docs will not change? (no search,etc)
[11:54] <LaserJock> so the only problem I see is how do we make a frontpage for people
[11:54] <nixternal> i think graphically enticing and to the point
[11:55] <nixternal> are you here for help? do you want to learn more about the operating system? history lesson? etc, etc, etc...
[11:55] <LaserJock> so perhaps we will need general category pages
[11:55] <somerville32> I don't think history is important
[11:55] <somerville32> Well, it is
[11:55] <somerville32> but not important enough to ship
[11:55] <nixternal> i just used it for filler
[11:56] <nixternal> well, it has been important to ship since day one though, about ubuntu is a history lesson
[11:56] <nixternal> although, those are getting merged into ubiquity
[11:56] <nixternal> so when you install you can read all of that now
[11:56] <robotgeek> i dont really see an issue with moving the KDG to topic based help, if the end user can view the docs. i guess i had misunderstood
[11:56] <nixternal> same here robotgeek
[11:58] <LaserJock> so the only real issue is how to get a khelpcenter front page that works well with our more TBH docs
[11:58] <robotgeek> on the issue of which docs to ship, is the general consensus to ship only desktop guides (we can ask for input on ml too)
[11:58] <LaserJock> not necessarily
[11:58] <LaserJock> it looks like the server guide will be included in the Topic Based Helpl
[11:58] <nixternal> LaserJock: so the front page will be a seperate doc/entity?
[11:58] <nixternal> that will then link to the kdg?
[11:59] <nixternal> or into the chunks
[11:59] <LaserJock> the chunks
[11:59] <LaserJock> or something like that
[11:59] <LaserJock> that's what the Kubuntu guys get to figure out :-)
[11:59] <nixternal> why not the ubuntu guys?
[11:59] <LaserJock> cause they will be doing the same thing with yelp
[12:00] <somerville32> What about Xubuntu?
[12:00] <nixternal> kubuntu guys got it made, we read html, no xml parsing here ;)
[12:00] <robotgeek> nixternal: heh
[12:00] <nixternal> somerville32: that is up to the xubuntu team to decide
[12:00] <nixternal> although...
[12:00] <nixternal> they should be in with all of this as well..there is way to much seperation
[12:00] <LaserJock> hehe, my bzr is still trying to branch the docs
[12:00] <nixternal> and every project has something different
[12:00] <robotgeek> LaserJock: i cancelled mine
[12:01] <somerville32> I was told that the main doc group encompassed xubuntu as well
[12:01] <LaserJock> well, who does Xubuntu docs?
[12:01] <somerville32> No one really
[12:01] <nixternal> one person that i have seen
[12:01] <somerville32> John Levin apparently a contact
[12:01] <somerville32> But he told me differently
[12:01] <LaserJock> well, I don't know what they use to view the help
[12:01] <LaserJock> but it'd be nice if we were all consistent
[12:02] <nixternal> not only consistant, but present
[12:02] <LaserJock> nixternal: it looks to me like khelpcenter would need some kind of wrapper doc
[12:02] <nixternal> jeesh
[12:03] <nixternal> LaserJock: it wouldn't be any different that yelps, just that we build ours out to html
[12:03] <LaserJock> well, it's tough to build a doc community
[12:03] <nixternal> and just as tough to get them all together for a meeting as well
[12:03] <LaserJock> nixternal: I"m not sure, I get the impression that yelp is pretty beastly for the frontpage
[12:04] <LaserJock> usually they have to work with upstream to make changes
[12:04] <nixternal> really
[12:04] <nixternal> i didn't know that
[12:04] <nixternal> so maybe KHelpCenter isn't all that bad then ;)
[12:04] <LaserJock> khelpcenter is just like an index or tree view
[12:04] <robotgeek> khelpcenter opens up a list of docs. we can't change taht, really. we can decide how to present the desktop gudie frontpage
[12:04] <LaserJock> yelp actually has a Frontpage
[12:04] <nixternal> OMG! I just realised I stood someone up tonight..i heard them countdown the lighting of the chicago tree on tv...oh well ;)
[12:05] <LaserJock> robotgeek: more like a Kubuntu frontpage
[12:05] <nixternal> oh..ok, i know what you are saying now
[12:05] <nixternal> that is easy to do
[12:05] <robotgeek> LaserJock: maybe we can get khelpcenter to open up a different page, lol
[12:05] <nixternal> we can hide the documentation from the list for just a single front page
[12:06] <nixternal> oooh...ya, i forgot khelpcenter shows all of the kde docs
[12:06] <robotgeek> okay, that works for us kubuntu guys, i think. 
[12:06] <nixternal> and we don't want to hide those..those are very important
[12:06] <nixternal> but when khelp center opens..i got it now
[12:06] <nixternal> robotgeek: we have a buttload of work possibly ahead of us...
[12:06] <robotgeek> nixternal: heh, yeah. 
[12:07] <LaserJock> the least difficult thing, I think, would be to create a wrapper doc
[12:07] <LaserJock> and only link to that in khelpcenter
[12:07] <nixternal> we can work on the docs now, and then when Riddell gets back from holliday we can speak with him about changing how khelpcenter opens
[12:07] <nixternal> that will upset upstream i am sure
[12:07] <robotgeek> sounds like a plan
[12:07] <LaserJock> no, it wouldn't touch upstream
[12:07] <LaserJock> only Kubuntu
[12:07] <nixternal> they already get upset when we funktify default settings
[12:08] <nixternal> ya LaserJock, and kubuntu continues to stray away from kde principles that way though
[12:08] <LaserJock> all I'm saying is only have 1 doc for Kubuntu docs
[12:08] <nixternal> unless, it is as easy as a khelpcenterrc file
[12:08] <LaserJock> it's as easy as the .desktop we ship
[12:08] <nixternal> LaserJock: thats all there is going to be from us..About and Release are part of ubiquity now
[12:08] <LaserJock> argg
[12:09] <nixternal> well, the .desktop won't change the layout of khelpcenter
[12:09] <LaserJock> you're not quite getting what I'm saying I don't think
[12:09] <nixternal> oooh
[12:09] <LaserJock> kubuntu-doc ships *1* .desktop that opens up *1* doc
[12:09] <nixternal> i got what you are saying..and to do that would be to ditch khelpcenter, or ditch/hide the kde docs
[12:09] <LaserJock> that then provides the links to the TBH
[12:10] <LaserJock> it doesn't touch upstream
[12:10] <nixternal> ok, and then have that doc link to all of the kde docs, or open up khelpcenter..possibly a different help viewer for kubuntu alone
[12:11] <LaserJock> heh
[12:11] <LaserJock> you're making this harder than I'm saying
[12:11] <nixternal> right now, when you click help in kubuntu, khelpcenter pops up with a link to every "topic" which then links to "subtopics" which then link to "handbooks" ;)
[12:11] <robotgeek> is that right, LaserJock ?
[12:11] <LaserJock> ok, so I open khelpcenter
[12:11] <nixternal> what you are saying is have it open to Kubuntu TBH, and that is all the user sees, and then they can access the rest from within this 1 doc
[12:12] <LaserJock> I get a list of the Kubuntu docs
[12:12] <LaserJock> if I click on kubuntu
[12:12] <nixternal> you get more than kubuntu docs in khelpcenter
[12:12] <LaserJock> doesn't matter
[12:12] <nixternal> kubuntu, and every kde doc possible ;)
[12:12] <LaserJock> I'm saying you click on "Kubuntu Documents"
[12:12] <nixternal> but when it opens, that "welcome" screen is what we want?
[12:13] <LaserJock> you get a lists of docs
[12:13] <nixternal> ya
[12:13] <nixternal> just change that?
[12:13] <LaserJock> instead of having all those docs you could have just 1
[12:13] <nixternal> easy
[12:13] <robotgeek> should be possible, we khelpcenter does file arguemnts, i guess