[12:16] <carlos> ;-)
[12:16] <flacoste> and do you know what it stands for?
[12:27] <kiko> it stands for pancakes and maple syrup!
[12:39] <khermans_> i would like to report a launchpad issue
[12:42] <somerville32> khermans_: Feel free to file a bug.
[12:43] <khermans_> somerville32, i am right now :-)
[12:43] <somerville32> :)
[12:43] <khermans_> when you attach a file to a bug report, it uploads the file and then checks ot see if you added a description
[12:43] <khermans_> this sucks if you just spent 10 minutes uploading a crash report to see that you had "no description" :-(
[12:44] <khermans_> gotta send again...
[12:48] <kiko> khermans_, hard to fix that without fixing html forms in general...
[12:48] <khermans_> kiko, javascript can tell if the field is empty, right?
[12:48] <khermans_> that runs client side
[12:49] <kiko> yeah!
[12:49] <khermans_> kiko, is that not a valid solution?
[12:50] <kiko> yeah, it's a decent enough solution.
[12:50] <kiko> file the bug
[12:52] <khermans_> kiko, already did :-)
[12:52] <kiko> heh
[12:55] <kiko> okay, out for a bit
[12:55] <Ubugtu> New bug: #73196 in launchpad "Including an attachment with no description to a bug report should fail before file upload is attempted" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73196
[01:02] <kiko-zzz> time to catch those zs!
[01:02] <kiko-zzz> night guys
[02:49] <yankees26> question: How can I find the date for when a goal is supposed to be met? ( I set a goal for version 1.0 for some time in December, but I can't remember what date :P)
[03:25] <mpt> yankees26, what kind of goal?
[03:25] <mpt> Is this a milestone?
[03:25] <mpt> or a product release?
[03:25] <mpt> or something else?
[03:31] <yankees26> mpt: i think it would be considered a Feature Specification attached to a Milestone Target
[03:33] <mpt> yankees26, what's the URL of this feature specification?
[03:38] <kiko-zzz> mpt, what's special about bug 73077 that's causing it to time out?
[03:38] <yankees26> mpt: do you mean this: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/products/nirvana/+spec/1.0-release or the actual specification URL that that link asks for?
[03:38] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 73077 in xawtv "When running scantv I get a segmentation fault (core dumped) when ut gets to channel 77" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73077
[03:43] <kiko-zzz> mpt, ping?
[03:44] <mpt> kiko-zzz, I don't know, I don't have access to the database
[03:44] <mpt> but my guess is
[03:44] <kiko-zzz> mpt, can you load the bug? 
[03:44] <mpt> that its description contains a core dump
[03:44] <mpt> and text-to-html takes too long to convert this core dump to HTML
[03:45] <mpt> That's what the traceback suggests, anyway
[03:45] <mpt> and no I can't load the bug report
[03:45] <kiko-zzz> okay.
[03:45] <kiko-zzz> hey stub 
[03:46] <mpt> yankees26, if you click on the "1.0 release" link you arrive at a page that says, among other things, "Date expected: 2007-01-01"
[03:46] <mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/products/nirvana/+milestone/1.0-release
[03:46] <mpt> Have you seen that page before?
[03:47] <yankees26> thanks mpt i cant believe i didnt see that on the left
[03:47] <yankees26> :O, it even says it at the top of the browser
[03:47] <yankees26> excuse me while i go feel dumb.....
[03:48] <mpt> yankees26, that's ok, people usually don't see the stuff in the little boxes
[03:48] <yankees26> heh
[03:48] <mpt> Or I should say "often", not "usually"
[03:49] <mpt> Same goes for <title> because of the way most Web browsers are designed
[03:49] <yankees26> heh, well know I have an actual html file that has a more detailed spec (worked on it while i waited here :P)
[03:50] <yankees26> http://fhatsoft.googlepages.com/1.0-spec.html
[03:50] <yankees26> sadly its on a googlepages thing (would run my own server but god damn optimum online doesnt allow servers :( )
[03:51] <yankees26> well its free
[03:51] <yankees26> 100 MB of space
[03:51] <yankees26> upload space*
[03:51] <yankees26> but doesn't have any real html editing
[03:52] <yankees26> i probably could have used berlios or sf for nirvana though 
[03:52] <yankees26> oh well
[03:53] <kiko-zzz> yankees26, why is html editing a desireable thing?
[03:53] <kiko-zzz> I mean, isn't it easier to just edit locally and push changes?
[03:53] <yankees26> 'cause the "html" and templates googlepages offers isn't very good
[03:53] <yankees26> IMO
[03:54] <kiko-zzz> oh they offer templates?
[03:54] <kiko-zzz> and you can't put your own templates/content?
[03:54] <yankees26> another annoying thing is that you could use your own html files and upload them, but its impossible to make one of htem your homepage
[03:55] <yankees26> kiko-zzz: no
[03:55] <kiko-zzz> that is ridiculous
[03:55] <yankees26> but you can upload your own html files
[03:55] <yankees26> but you'd still have to have a googlepages one for your home page
[03:55] <kiko-zzz> but not in the homepage?
[03:55] <kiko-zzz> gah
[03:55] <yankees26> i've even tried uploading an index.html and i still get googlepages homepage :p
[03:57] <yankees26> so basically, my base of operations for nirvana is what launchpad gives me and http://randomthinktank.wordpress.com/nirvana-package-manager/
[04:00] <yankees26> hm, berlios is looking promising to use as a website hoster and tarballs (of course i'll continue to use launchpad for malone and bazaar, etc.)
[04:08] <kiko-zzz> yankees26, cool to hear. we should offer web hosting at some point, though we're bottlenecked for developer time right now
[04:08] <kiko-zzz> yankees26, so what do you like about launchpad's malone and bazaar?
[04:09] <yankees26> kiko-zzz: idk, i just like bzr a lot and malone looks better than the bug tracking provided by berlios and f
[04:09] <yankees26> sf*
[04:09] <yankees26> web-hosting would be a nice feature though :p, although I'd rather see less downtime between a bzr push and it actually being able to be pulled
[04:09] <kiko-zzz> yankees26, so we're working to increase the frequency at which we mirror
[04:09] <kiko-zzz> yankees26, how much is it nowadays?
[04:10] <yankees26> idk, i've usually done bzr push's at night
[04:10] <yankees26> and i dont check back till the next day
[04:11] <yankees26> maybe tomorrow, i'll do a bzr push and set a cron job or something for bzr pull and see how long it takes :p
[04:11] <kiko-zzz> I'd be interested in knowing
[04:11] <yankees26> ok
[04:11] <yankees26> i'll try getting that done tomorrow
[04:13] <yankees26> im just waiting to hear from a guy i know who uses berlios and ask a few questions
[04:13] <yankees26> then i'll have a nice berlios+launchpad combo going :D
[04:31] <Ubugtu> New bug: #73204 in blueprint "Sorting a list of specifications doesn't work" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73204
[04:44] <mpt> Reporting bugs about Launchpad is addictive :-/
[04:44] <yankees26> orly? :p
[04:45] <mpt> ya rly
[04:45] <yankees26> oh, ok
[04:47] <yankees26> NO!!!!, nirvana.berlios.de is taken!
[05:35] <yankees26> bye all and thanks
[12:58] <kiko-zzz> SteveA, ping!
[01:45] <SteveA> kiko: mr kiko!
[01:45] <kiko> that's him
[01:45] <kiko> in the flesh
[01:45] <SteveA> so... I can access that site
[01:46] <kiko> and I can'
[01:46] <kiko> t
[01:46] <SteveA> it is indeed curious that you cannot
[01:46] <kiko> I can ping it
[01:46] <SteveA> but we have seen it before
[02:40] <kiko> SteveA, ping
[02:48] <mc__> what do you guys think about launchpad intergration with oter revison controll systems?
[02:49] <mc__> wouldn't it be great to have for instance svn/darcs support?
[02:49] <yankees26> cant "import" a svn or cvs branch?
[02:49] <kiko> mc__, we do have some svn "support" in the form of code imports.
[02:49] <kiko> mc__, there is a proposal for furthering svn support but there haven't been resources to throw at that lately
[02:50] <mc__> kiko: i do not use  cvs/svn,personally i would enjoy darcs support
[02:51] <kiko> mc__, there has never been a single request for darcs importing!
[02:51] <mc__> kiko: till now :)
[02:51] <kiko> heh
[02:51] <kiko> it's unfortunate that imports are such complicated things
[02:53] <mc__> but why no "really" support for other rcs'es,i mean,i dont want my darcs rep to be imported into bazaar
[02:53] <kiko> it's hard to build a system that is all to everybody
[02:53] <kiko> we need to focus on the tools we have found to work best, and bzr is definitely the best RCS platform, in our evaluation 
[02:54] <kiko> supporting another RCS natively would be a gargantuan task, additionally
[02:54] <kiko> so it's not an easy decision for a limited-resource enterprise
[02:55] <yankees26> isnt there also the fact that bazaar is another canocial (spelt that wrong) project?
[02:56] <kiko> yankees26, well, we didn't, originally
[02:56] <kiko> have bazaar
[02:56] <yankees26> ah
[02:56] <mc__> yankees26: its sponsored by canonical
[02:56] <kiko> the idea was to use an existing RCS
[02:56] <kiko> but at the time the only "viable" distributed RCS was arch
[02:56] <kiko> and after a year or so of work on arch we found it utterly unworkable
[02:57] <kiko> and in shopping for alternatives found mpool and his prospect for a greater distributed RCS
[02:57] <mc__> kiko: is launchpad oss atm?
[02:58] <kiko> I believe from the bottom of my heart that bzr is the best platform available out there, but I am considering things from many perspectives, not just the binary/tool itself.
[02:58] <mc__> kiko: have you ever tried darcs?
[02:58] <kiko> mc__, not yet. that's a long story! we operate as openly as we can, and we do want to release as OSS, but we're Not There Yet
[02:58] <kiko> yeah, back in the days
[02:58] <kiko> maybe a year and a bit ago
[02:58] <mc__> and you didnt like it?
[02:59] <kiko> I did, actually
[02:59] <mc__> whad advantages does bzr have to darcs? maybe ill try it again
[03:00] <kiko> mc__, in a checklist sort of way I can't say because my experience with darcs is way more limited
[03:01] <kiko> but bzr is really easy to use. mpool's main desire was to make something that felt right, but without all the policy dictating that arch and git seem to love doing
[03:01] <kiko> bzr's also an awesome community to work with; they have people 24/7 on #bzr, and help is easy to find
[03:01] <kiko> the tool is fast for our pretty large tree already, and performance has increased in leaps over the past months
[03:02] <kiko> bzr do monthly releases, strictly, so it's easy to see the progress
[03:02] <kiko> and ultimately, bzr has a clear roadmap, community involvement and commitment by its leadership to be in for the long haul
[03:03] <mc__> but darcs does all you say as well,except for the performance thing,darcs is quite slow 
[03:03] <kiko> mc__, which is a problem if we wanted to get  darcs used for the kernel or mozilla
[03:03] <kiko> which is what we want bzr to be used for
[03:03] <kiko> and which we are very close to now
[03:03] <kiko> (after almost two years of hard work!)
[03:04] <mc__> kiko: you are a developer of launchpad/bzr?
[03:04] <kiko> mc__, of launchpad. I'm just a bzr user
[03:04] <kiko> but I love it <wink>
[03:05] <mc__> kiko: you guys do great work!
[03:05] <kiko> wow, thanks for saying that
[03:06] <yankees26> i'd say sub par ;P
[03:06] <yankees26> (just joking)
[03:06] <kiko> yankees26, at least we keep trying harder!
[03:06] <yankees26> :P
[03:07] <mc__> kiko: i've got one last question,when do you think will launchpad be oss?
[03:07] <mc__> and what problems are keeping launchpad form beeing oss?
[03:07] <kiko> I personally think we still have a lot to improve before I think Launchpad is actually enough for me to call "good"
[03:07] <kiko> but it's a big system and there are lots of areas of goodness
[03:08] <kiko> mc__, there are a few issues that block us there
[03:08] <kiko> one is that we'd hate fragmentation to happen, because there is a lot of value in having a single launchpad
[03:09] <kiko> and at this point I honestly think that there a risk of making the platform fail because of fragmentation
[03:09] <kiko> there's also the issue that a lot of launchpad is still really pre-alpha 
[03:09] <kiko> a lot of string and wire in parts
[03:09] <kiko> and running it requires an array of servers and admins
[03:10] <kiko> the setup documentation would require a lot of effort on our part
[03:10] <kiko> it's not a simple project, and we didn't really design it to be easily downloaded and installed by end-users (and that shows ;)
[03:11] <mc__> kiko: i think that would not keep new developers from joining
[03:11] <kiko> yeah, people have said that before
[03:11] <yankees26> launchpad uses plone right? (i cant remember)
[03:11] <kiko> it uses zope3
[03:11] <yankees26> ah
[03:11] <kiko> it used to use some plone templates
[03:11] <kiko> but no longer
[03:11] <mc__> kiko: but i think you would need something like a plugin architecture
[03:12] <kiko> the OSSness point is the one point we are thinking about all the time
[03:12] <kiko> yeah
[03:12] <kiko> mc__, it may be that a rich xmlrpc API may be enough for a start
[03:12] <kiko> but we're Not There Yet (heard that before?)
[03:12] <mc__> kiko: yes :)
[03:13] <kiko> what day of the week is this anyway, and why am I still working?!
[03:13] <mc__> kiko: its saturday
[03:13] <kiko> in some countries people don't have to work on saturdays
[03:14] <kiko> but in launchpaddia we only get 4 weekends a year
[03:14] <kiko> and this is not one of them ;-)
[03:14] <mc__> kiko: not only in launchpaddia,ist like that in whole developia ;)
[03:14] <kiko> so I hear
[03:16] <mc__> kiko: may i treat our talk as an interview and  publish some parts on a austrian blog?
[03:17] <yankees26> heh
[03:17] <kiko> mc__, sure
[03:18] <kiko> I might even be able to keep my job once it's published <wink
[03:18] <kiko> >
[03:18] <mc__> ^^
[03:19] <mc__> i'll go  bed now,have a nice day!
[03:20] <kiko> thanks, rest well
[03:20] <yankees26> kiko: time to start the bazaar push/pull test
[03:20] <kiko> ai ai
[03:20] <kiko> o/~ tv on the radio o/~
[03:20] <yankees26> ...?
[03:21] <kiko> it's a most interesting band. and so offtopic. :)
[03:21] <yankees26> what band?
[03:21] <kiko> tv on the radio
[03:21] <kiko> TVOTR
[03:21] <yankees26> oh
[03:21] <yankees26> mercurial looks nice
[03:21] <kiko> i would enjoy seeing them live; they are a bunch of weirdos
[03:21] <yankees26> hehe
[03:21] <kiko> mercurial is indeed nice
[03:22] <kiko> not as weird as The Mars Volta, but, well, everything has its limits
[03:22] <yankees26> im looking its Importing patches section of Quickstart guide, its very nice feature
[03:22] <kiko> so
[03:22] <kiko> bzr has the same feature
[03:22] <kiko> what bzr doesn't have yet
[03:22] <kiko> is as good documentation as hg
[03:22] <yankees26> really? what's the command?
[03:22] <kiko> mmmm
[03:23] <yankees26> bzr mmmm? :p
[03:23] <kiko> so bundle-revisions produces bundles
[03:23] <yankees26> like a clean .tar.gz?
[03:23] <kiko> mmmm
[03:23] <yankees26> these mmmm's arent very specific....
[03:23] <kiko> okay the feature may not be entirely compatible
[03:24] <kiko> argh, somebody at the door. 
[03:24] <yankees26> haha
[03:24] <yankees26> ok to revisions have been pushed
[03:24] <yankees26> now to setup the cron job on my mac
[03:29] <yankees26> ok now to make the bash script that'll do that stuff
[03:34] <yankees26> ok its setup
[03:34] <yankees26> bzr pull | grep 2 && touch "../`date`"
[03:34] <yankees26> that should work
[03:35] <yankees26> :O
[03:35] <yankees26> i just did a manual pull ('cause i was just testing something again) and it pulled the 2 revisions.....
[03:35] <yankees26> :O
[03:35] <yankees26> that was faster than usual
[03:35] <kiko> hah!
[03:36] <kiko> yankees26, bundles are basically portable changesets (with metadata)
[03:36] <yankees26> ah
[03:36] <yankees26> im gonna do another trial
[03:36] <yankees26> and push another revision
[03:36] <yankees26> and not do any manual pullings
[03:37] <yankees26> ok the revision has been pushed
[03:37] <yankees26> if cron does its job, it'll execute at the half hour of every hour
[03:38] <yankees26> or every 30 minutes
[03:38] <yankees26> i can't remember what the first column does exaclty :P
[03:38] <kiko> cron has been known to do its job occasionally
[03:38] <yankees26> hehe
[03:38] <kiko> the first column is minutes
[03:38] <yankees26> so it'll do it every 30 minutes
[03:38] <kiko> well, depending on the cron
[03:38] <yankees26> or every half hour?
[03:38] <kiko> */30 ?
[03:39] <yankees26> */30 does it every 30 minutes
[03:39] <kiko> right.
[03:39] <yankees26> ok changed
[03:39] <kiko> */30 * * * *^I^I/sbin/rmmod -a
[03:39] <yankees26> next test will be 10:00 AM
[03:39] <kiko> tries to remove modules every 30 minutes
[03:39] <yankees26> hehe
[03:40] <yankees26> not gonna do that (plus im doing the cron part from my mac)
[03:40] <kiko> well, it only unloads unused modules
[03:41] <yankees26> hm
[03:41] <yankees26> /sbin/rmmod --help doesnt mention a -a
[03:42] <yankees26> you ever used bzr register-branch? :P
[03:46] <kiko> yeah, I have
[03:46] <yankees26> kiko: whats the difference between bzr update and bzr pull?
[03:47] <kiko> yankees26, I think for branches they are the same thing
[03:47] <kiko> I think pull doesn't work for checkouts
[03:47] <yankees26> ah
[03:47] <kiko> I asked Martin the exact same thing a while back. we may see the commands consolidated a bit
[03:48] <yankees26> ah
[03:48] <yankees26> who is martin?
[03:49] <kiko> martin pool
[03:49] <yankees26> ok im giving up the testing, i just did a bzr branch on my linux machine and it was fully up to date, why is launchpad being fast today??
[03:50] <kiko> yankees26, it ate dessert yesterday and has more calories to burn now I guess
[03:50] <yankees26> ah
[03:50] <yankees26> ok this is odd
[03:51] <yankees26> i do bzr up and it says its up to date
[03:51] <yankees26> bzr pull takes down another revision
[03:51] <yankees26> obviously they dont do the same thing
[03:55] <kiko> yankees26, so bzr up probably doesn't work for branches. it's been a while since I've developed directly on branches
[03:55] <yankees26> ah
[05:37] <careyo> hello
[05:37] <careyo> are there rules that determine what products can be registered on launchpad?
[05:38] <kiko> not really
[05:45] <yankees26> just register and voila!
[05:46] <yankees26> i saw one that didn't even describe what it was :P, the description was just (possibly not totally correct): "I'll fill this out when I have something to put." 
[05:57] <careyo> interesting. 
[05:58] <careyo> i am trying to understand the whole launchpad concept right now.
[06:00] <careyo> So far my understanding is something like this "gather all projects/code/bugs/etc together into one spot for better collaboration"...
[06:04] <kiko> careyo, that's a pretty good description!
[06:05] <careyo> good, maybe I'm not as confused as I thought :)
[06:08] <somerville32> :] 
[06:25] <Ubugtu> New bug: #73253 in malone "Page to edit a bug's title/description looks awful" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73253
[06:26] <yankees26> heh: using malone to report a bug about malone
[06:26] <yankees26> that amuses me
[06:27] <yankees26> hey kiko: berlios approved my project, now I can have an actual website (as opposed to using a blog/googlepages :P)
[06:30] <kiko> that's a metabug
[06:31] <kiko> and this googlepages template nonsense is, well, nonsense!
[06:31] <yankees26> metabug?
[06:31] <yankees26> and yes it is
[06:31] <yankees26> oh, the bug. ignore the 
[06:31] <yankees26> "metabug?"
[06:32] <kiko> yeah
[06:32] <kiko> I am into deep meaningless words
[06:32] <yankees26> eh
[06:32] <yankees26> but now ihave to wait about 6 hours before actually accessing it