[01:19] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
[01:19] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there
[01:19] (gnomefreak/#ubuntu-classroom) ty Hobbsee and fabbione
[01:19] (daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) thanks.. i also have to be at school the whole week ;)
[01:20] (Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) thanks fabbione
[01:20] (fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) no problem
[01:20] (Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) daschl: they'll also be at the link in !logs
[01:20] (daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) !logs
[01:20] (ubotu/#ubuntu-classroom) Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[01:20] (daschl/#ubuntu-classroom) ah ok :) thanks
[01:20] (fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) logs should be on the web starting within the next 60 minutes
[01:20] (Hobbsee/#ubuntu-classroom) :)
[01:20] (fabbione/#ubuntu-classroom) there is nothing right now
[01:23] <gnomefreak> how do you remove a hackergotchi from bzr? i  know to add its "bzr add heads/pic.png
[01:23] <DerXero> mahltied
[01:25] <stgraber> hi
[01:33] <jackflap> hello
[01:33] <stgraber> hi
[01:33] <jackflap> am i interrupting anything?
[01:33] <Hobbsee> no
[01:33] <Hobbsee> not yet
[01:34] <Lesley> Hello!
[01:35] <stgraber> It starts at 15:00 UTC
[01:36] <Lesley> I am new at this! getting ready for class!
[01:36] <Hobbsee> got your school books out Lesley?  :P
[01:37] <Lesley> yip! coffee and snacks
[01:38] <Lesley> I have no idea what it means to have a cloak, a mask,....all sounds very scary!
[01:38] <stgraber> I'm interested in the "Packaging 101" and "
[01:38] <stgraber> Maintaining an Ubuntu Package"
[01:39] <stgraber> hmm, bad copy/paste
[01:39] <stgraber> that's for today, I'll be mostly at school for the others day :(
[01:40] <stgraber> and I'll miss the Edubuntu one :(
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> Lesley: It means that instead of showing up like "tonyyserver [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net]  has joined #ubuntu-classroom" you would show up as something like "tonyyserver [n=tonyyserver@ubuntu/member/tonyyserver]  has joined #ubuntu-classroom"
[01:42] <Hobbsee> Lesley: we have ghosts that wander around mid-class, distracting people, and the like :P
[01:43] <tonyyarusso> Hmm...can I reload /etc/screenrc without killing a screened app?
[01:43] <Lesley> ok - well can you guys protect me from anything strange and i am sure I will learn alot when class begins!
[01:51] <Lesley> Why is some text red, others blue etc?
[01:52] <samkon> :) have you ever been in IRC before?
[01:52] <Hobbsee> Lesley: the red lot usually means that your nickname is somewhere in it?
[01:52] <samkon> some of them are messeges to you from server
[01:53] <Hobbsee> (which arent shown in the main window of xchat, iirc)
[01:53] <samkon> because of that they have different colors
[01:53] <Grishkin> How long now to wait before 3-00?
[01:54] <samkon> 6 minutes here, there ?
[01:54] <Grishkin> wow
[01:54] <Lesley> Ok! yip - i am a virgin - veerry green! but will do some homework!
[01:57] <Hobbsee> Lesley: you're doing fine :)
[01:57] <Lesley> cool bud!
[01:58] <LinuxBA> CypherBIOS: heya!!!
[01:59] <CypherBIOS> LinuxBA: good to see you!
[02:00] <CypherBIOS> LinuxBA: do you know what time will be here at "15:00 UTC" ?
[02:00] <LinuxBA> 12:00
[02:00] <Hobbsee> 2 more hours
[02:00] <Hobbsee> @now
[02:00] <LinuxBA> at Salvador
[02:00] <Hobbsee> Seveas: no ubugtu?
[02:01] <CypherBIOS> Hobbsee, LinuxBA: tanks
[02:01] <CypherBIOS> thanks
 6 minutes here, there ?
[02:02] <Grishkin> i think that's wrong :)
[02:03] <samkon> Grishkin: no it was true
[02:03] <samkon> it is 15:03 here now
[02:03] <Grishkin> it is not UTC i mean
[02:03] <stgraber> we talk about 15:00 UTC :)
[02:04] <Hobbsee> everything is in UTC here
[02:04] <Grishkin> so it it about 15-00 UTC now?
[02:04] <fabbione> it's 2 hours to 15:00 UTC
[02:05] <fabbione> date -u
[02:05] <fabbione> Mon Nov 27 13:05:05 UTC 2006
[02:05] <Grishkin> yes
[02:05] <Hobbsee> do we have any ops in here?
[02:05] <Lesley> Hobbsee are you in London?
[02:05] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: si
[02:05] <Hobbsee> Lesley: nope,  australia
[02:06] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: please add http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 to the topic
[02:06] <samkon> is there two hours to it begins ?
[02:06] <jono> fabbione, is there a bot in here?
[02:06] <Hobbsee> samkon: yes
[02:06] <jono> to log the sessions?
[02:06] <Lesley> Im in South Africa - its 15.10 here
[02:06] <Hobbsee> jono: yes, ubuntulog
[02:06] <jono> woo!
[02:06] <samkon> :(
[02:06] <elkbuntu> jono, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
[02:06] <jono> nice :)
[02:07] <samkon> I did not sleep yesterday becaouse of my exam today
[02:07] <Hobbsee> Lesley: everything is in UTC time, so we dont all go insane.  see that tinyurl link i just gave for when it is in your timezone
[02:07] <fabbione> jono: yes.
[02:07] <samkon> and I may be sleeping fromt of the computer
[02:07] <jono> would be nice to have some ops around this week to look after things
[02:07] <samkon> in 2 hours
[02:07] <samkon> :(
[02:07] <Hobbsee> hey cool, i have ops!
[02:08] <tonyyarusso> Dangit...
[02:08] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I need to get me a topic sed script...
[02:08] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: so do i
[02:09] <Hobbsee> i think that'll make it a bit clearer - and that time and date can be updated to whatever date/time you want to use.  and there's a "give me the time in all timezones now" button too
[02:09] <Hobbsee> jono: hopefully you wont need ops
[02:10] <jono> Hobbsee, :)
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jono: but i wont be here for the majority of it
[02:10] <jono> nice to see a pretty full room here
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jono: bah.  you'll be fine.
[02:10] <Hobbsee> jono: /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-classroom list
[02:10] <jono> heh
[02:11] <hastesaver> jono, 128 is nowhere near full by #ubuntu standards :-)
[02:11] <jono> hastesaver, sure
[02:11] <Hobbsee> jono: the third entry, in particular
[02:11] <Hobbsee> [00:10]  [Notice]  -ChanServ- 3   10    *!*@ubuntu/member/*                 0s
[02:11] <jono>  /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-classroom list
[02:11] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Ah, wise.  I don't think that was there before.
[02:11] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: me neither
[02:11] <jono> :)
[02:11] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: ompaul must have done it
[02:11] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: ^ if you didnt know
[02:14] <hastesaver> what does it mean? Does it means that all ubuntu members are ops?
[02:15] <tonyyarusso> hastesaver: For this channel, for open week
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> My tab-complete skills are terrible.
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> There we go
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Just got the script - pretty cool, btw.
[02:17] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee, jono: Wait - he probably won't be able to use that access entry, since his host mask isn't enabled.
[02:21] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee, jono: But any op can op someone else for a particular session, right?  So as long as somebody is around to give it to him at some point before it starts he'll be fine.
[02:22] <jono> I am sure we will be fine
[02:22] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: yes
[02:22] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: and seeing as an op is any ubuntu member...
[02:23] <Hobbsee> then again, it probably doesnt cause any harm for jono to be op'd all the time
[02:23] <tonyyarusso> Odds are there might be just a few?  ;)
[02:24] <jono> thanks
[02:25] <Hobbsee> :)
[02:25] <freeflying_> hi Hobbsee :)
[02:26] <Hobbsee> hey freeflying_!
[02:26] <samk0n> /nickserv identify elsa8650
[02:26] <Hobbsee> er...
[02:26] <Hobbsee> you might want to change that password
[02:27] <Hobbsee> and you wanted /msg nickserv identify elsa8650
[02:27] <samk0n> bcause of differenr script
[02:27] <samk0n> :S
[02:28] <finalbeta> You should test in server window anyway, not in a channel ;)
[02:29] <atoponce> samkon: you can set your nickserv password as your server password when you connect to freenode
[02:29] <atoponce> then you never have to '/msg nickserv identify <pass>' and risk showing it in a channel
[02:30] <atoponce> if using irssi, it's really easy: /server add -network freenode irc.freenode.net 6667 <pass>
[02:34] <tonyyarusso> In addition to fabbion?'s logs, I also have logging going now, at http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[02:34] <tonyyarusso> samkon: Having trouble there?
[02:35] <samkon> because of my connection
[02:35] <samkon> It goes sometime :S
[02:36] <samkon> my silly cables
[02:36] <samkon> :(
[02:36] <samkon> sorry for it
[02:36] <makke> samkon: i dont think its your connection
[02:36] <makke> samkon: (Nick collision from services.)
[02:37] <Hobbsee> makke: it is, then he's getting his nick back
[02:37] <makke> samkon: you have posted your nickserv passwd somewhere?
[02:37] <makke> Hobbsee: someone is ghosting him
[02:37] <hastesaver> makke, if you mean the person who typed his password in plaintext a little while ago, that was samk0n, someone else.
[02:38] <Hobbsee> they changed nicks
[02:39] <Hobbsee> yeah, ghosting on that nick isnt working, it's just a bad connection, it seems
[02:40] <makke> hmm, bad connection would be a ping timeout or something
[02:40] <rmunn> Quick question: is anyone going to be putting up transcripts for those who miss a session?
[02:40] <Hobbsee> rmunn: yes
[02:41] <Hobbsee> rmunn: they're already going up at !logs
[02:41] <rmunn> Because I'll be traveling tomorrow and I'm going to miss jono's "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session.
[02:41] <rmunn> Ah, good.
[02:41] <atoponce> rmunn: yeah. there's ubuntulog and http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/ that i know of so far
[02:41] [atoponce(n=aaron@oalug/member/atoponce)]  help
[02:41] <rmunn> Sorry for my ignorance: what's !logs ?
[02:41] <rhk_> Will someone link it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[02:41] <rmunn> Good idea, a link on the wiki would be nice
[02:41] <tonyyarusso> !logs | rmunn
[02:41] <ubotu> rmunn: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[02:42] <rmunn> tonyyarusso: thanks
[02:42] <Hobbsee> rmunn: in here, anything prefaced with a ! means a command to the resident bot, ubotu
[02:43] <rmunn> I see. How do I ask ubotu what commands it recognizes?
[02:43] <Hobbsee> er....i dont remember?
[02:43] <Hobbsee> !bot
[02:43] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[02:43] <Hobbsee> there :)
[02:43] <rmunn> Thanks. I'll go back to lurking now for a while. :-)
[02:45] <hastesaver> I'll probably miss almost all the sessions, as 15:00 UTC is 20:30 here and if I'm not out of here by 22:00 (= 16:30 UTC), I get locked in for the night :-)
[02:46] <Hobbsee> hastesaver: there are logs.  i'm missing most of them too
[02:46] <tomasz> same here -- I think it's 2300 localtime when this starts, a little late for me ;)
[02:48] <Hobbsee> tomasz: try 2am start :P
[02:48] <srikanthssn> same here.. hastesaver, where in india ??
[02:48] <atoponce> 8am start here
[02:48] <tomasz> 2am yeow
[02:48] <Hobbsee> which is why i'm not staying up.
[02:48] <tomasz> i got work in the morning i just can't do that.. =)
[02:48] <tomasz> understood hehe
[02:48] <srikanthssn> to top it all i have 2 exams up this week
[02:48] <Hobbsee> jono: are you going to do the "ask mark" sessions as moderated?
[02:48] <Hobbsee> ick
[02:48] <Hobbsee> exams are evil
[02:49] <tomasz> but they feel so good once you finish 'em =)
[02:49] <davmor2> no school is evil
[02:49] <hastesaver> srikanthssn, AFAIK, only India has UTC+0530 :-)
[02:49] <srikanthssn> hmm ya.. just finished one :)
[02:49] <lotusleaf> mine!
[02:50] <srikanthssn> hastesaver, thats why asked where you are in india ?
[02:50] <samk0n> I changed my samkon pass but the pass is wrong now
[02:50] <hastesaver> srikanthssn, and that was my way of answering "yes, but you didn't even need to ask" :-)
[02:51] <jono> one sec, one the phone Hobbsee
[02:51] <Hobbsee> jono: no problems
[02:52] <srikanthssn> hastesaver, free..no probs
[02:55] <Daylighter> ooh
[02:55] <fafek2> Ubuntu Open Week starts in next hour, right?
[02:55] <gnomefreak> fafek2: yes
[02:56] <fafek2> Great. I can't wait!
[02:57] <ubulinu> we all can't wait I guess.... the nail-biting ubuntu crowd
[02:57] <jono> hey
[02:58] <nmsa> hello
[02:58] <jono> Hobbsee, I would like the Ask Mark session to be moderated I think
[02:58] <jono> I am still weighing up my options here
[02:58] <HamishTPB> given the weekend's postings I should think so, Jono ;-)
[02:59] <Hobbsee> jono: use a +z moderation, i guess.  that'll let ops all read the questions.  but i havent used moderated mode before, where i've been moderating.
[02:59] <hastesaver> jono, maybe you can wait to see from the earlier sessions whether there are any indications it will be necessary ;-)
[02:59] <Hobbsee> jono: ask Seveas about that, i think.
[02:59] <Hobbsee> hastesaver: i would expect it would be.  we've had trouble with soem of the classroom sessions before
[02:59] <jono> hastesaver, indeed
[02:59] <hastesaver> There are always hecklers in any crowd, I guess...
[03:00] <lotusleaf> I would hope the sabdfl chat is moderated :)
[03:00] <pichi__> moin
[03:00] <lotusleaf> good morning
[03:00] <pichi__> open day today
[03:01] <rhk_> inded
[03:01] <Hobbsee> jono: having said that, +m is usually bad for keeping a crowd interested - it's like web streaming - what's the point?  everything's going on without you anyway
[03:01] <tonyyarusso> jono: As a heads up, the last regular classroom session had an issue with a repeat join/part spammer using tor, so you might end up having to do an all-tor ban if any idiots try something like that, unfortunately.
[03:02] <lotusleaf> Hobbsee perhaps, but it controls chaos
[03:02] <Hobbsee> lotusleaf: indeed
[03:02] <lotusleaf> Besides, I would think sabdfl is interesting enough to hold interest ;)
[03:03] <stgraber> the other way is to put the channel into moderated mode (+m), speak and only voice (+v) the people that have question (with removing the +m sometimes to know who has some questions)
[03:03] <buttari> help
[03:04] <jono> Hobbsee, good point
[03:04] <jono> tonyyarusso, right
[03:04] <jono> tonyyarusso, would be good to have some IRC experts around to protect against this
[03:04] <gnomefreak> we normally use +m when we hold classes here
[03:04] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: yes.  what's the point?  you may as well read the irc log?
[03:04] <Hobbsee> jono: indeed.  elkbuntu's learnign it all :)
[03:04] <jono> what is +m again?
[03:05] <stgraber> only OP and Voice can speak
[03:05] <fafek2> Do you expect many people?
[03:05] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: so we can fit the class in under 6 hours ')
[03:05] <gnomefreak> jono: it mutes everyone except ops and voice
[03:05] <jono> right
[03:05] <hastesaver> And what's +z?
[03:05] <jono> makes sense for the main tuition part
[03:05] <jono> and then remove +m for the Q+A
[03:05] <gnomefreak> hastesaver: thats so only ops can read what users say
[03:06] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: hehe, true
[03:06] <lotusleaf> rather than removing +m and open potential chaotic floodgates, you could have a seperate channel for questions or ask that one person be a go-between in PM for questions
[03:06] <jayteeuk> Afternoon all.
[03:06] <Hobbsee> jono:  +m == moderated
[03:06] <chrisle> hi is someone from the desktopteam here?
[03:06] <lotusleaf> example: /msg soandso your questions for consideration
[03:06] <Hobbsee> chrisle: soon
[03:06] <lotusleaf> or a particular channel
[03:07] <farmer> fabbione thanks for the logs mate...
[03:07] <fafek2> Do you expect many people?
[03:07] <jono> Ng, go away
[03:07] <gnomefreak> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml are the modes
[03:07] <tonyyarusso> fafek2: Well, we already have 161 with an hour to go
[03:08] <Ng> jono: :(
[03:08] <fafek2> Yeah. I think how many of them will take part in discussion and how many of them will be just watching...
[03:08] <Ng> jono: you think you're better than me? ;)
[03:09] <jono> Ng, hehe
[03:09] <Ng> just think of those pennies, my friend :)
[03:09] <jono> Ng, my asspennies!
[03:09] <Ng> mwaha
[03:09] <jono> I wonder if we can break 200 by the time the session begins
[03:10] <rhk_> would guess so.. Only 40 to go..
[03:10] <ubulinu> I bet 300, we are here because we couldn't figure how UTC works
[03:10] <gnomefreak> if you read the topic ther eis a time translater for users that are not sure what time UTC is for them
[03:11] <ubulinu> I know, thanks, was just a joke... ;-)
[03:11] <jayteeuk> ubulinu: Speak for yourself.  I'm only here early because I'd have forgotten to turn up otherwise. :D
[03:11] <HamishTPB> jono lotusleaf Hobbsee etc: if you use +m then no-one who is not opped or voiced will have their messages seen - if you want someone to see the messages but not show them in the channel you need to use +z
[03:11] <jackflap> should i register my nickname in order to follow this chat or can i just leave it?
[03:12] <fafek2> Funny... I didn't know what's the UTC thing means too...
[03:12] <Hobbsee> jackflap: you dont need to, to follow, but you will, if you want to private message people
[03:12] <gnomefreak> jackflap: you can just leave it we shouldnt have the need to +r the channel
[03:12] <Hobbsee> fafek2: universal time zone or something
[03:12] <fafek2> :P
[03:12] <fafek2> There is only a second between GMT and UTC.
[03:12] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: correct, which is why I suggested either a second channel for questions to be submitted, or a go-between person to PM to take question submissions, accepted questions will quote the indivudual who had the question
[03:12] <HamishTPB> fafek2: UTC=GMT
[03:13] <jackflap> cheers, ill just leave it then
[03:13] <fafek2> Yeah, I know.
[03:13] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: if you go with voicing someone what is to stop them from going crazy for a short time?
[03:13] <HamishTPB> lotusleaf: if you use +z then one person can field questions and then voice them when it is their turn to ask or whatever?
[03:13] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: whatever works =)
[03:13] <lotusleaf> HamishTPB: carne asada burritos are delicious any time of the day
[03:13] <HamishTPB> lotusleaf: nothing to stop them but you could even just forward the Qs being the "moderator" using +z
[03:14] <gnomefreak> +z will annoy the instructer if hes +o
[03:14] <HamishTPB> hmmn
[03:14] <HamishTPB> yeah
[03:14] <HamishTPB> trying to remember what they do for tutorials on other netw**k
[03:15] <HamishTPB> hello to all btw :) Been using Kubuntu now for about 6 months and feel like I know some of you already from reading blogs etc :)
[03:16] <hastesaver> gnomefreak, then let the instructor not have +o. Let others take care of the problems. After all, the instructor needs to concentrate :-)
[03:17] <Daylighter> we need to develop sort of a screenshot vidcasting software.... so you can do these sessions with a live screen in front of them
[03:18] <Daylighter> when you start ubuntu up for the first time, have it fetch the latest schedule of sessions and hint to you to try them
[03:18] <proppy> Daylighter: gobby ?
[03:18] <davmor2> Daylight isn't that part of what telephany enables you to do?
[03:18] <pmjdebruijn> Istanbul -> GStreamer -> Flumotion?
[03:18] <Daylighter> o_o
[03:18] <Daylighter> I dont know
[03:19] <dholbach> davmor2: Farsight?
[03:19] <gnomefreak> this is gonna be rough.
[03:20] <gnomefreak> dholbach: you only have an hour :(
[03:20] <dholbach> gnomefreak: hm?
[03:20] <gnomefreak> for the packaging 101
[03:20] <dholbach> for the Packaging 101
[03:20] <davmor2> dholbach doesn't it use the telepathy as backend or am I mistaken
[03:21] <dholbach> davmor2: I'm not quite sure what you mean... what uses Telepathy?
[03:21] <davmor2> farsight
[03:21] <dholbach> gnomefreak: it's only an introductory session
[03:21] <gnomefreak> ah
[03:21] <davmor2> dholbach ignore me it's gossip I'm thinking of
[03:22] <dholbach> davmor2: telepathy uses farsight, which is a framework for audio/video conferencing
[03:23] <davmor2> thought it had something to do with it somewhere but then couldn't find reference to it afterwards :(
[03:23] <davmor2> knew I'd seen the two linked
[03:24] <proppy> dholbach: does packaging 101 cover making a package without cdbs or dh_* ?
[03:24] <dholbach> proppy: I'll do little bits of this and little bits of that
[03:24] <proppy> dholbach: ok thanks
[03:30] <ezenu3> #join #ubuntu
[03:30] <tonyyarusso> ezenu3: It's /join
[03:30] <effie_jayx> it happens to me all the time
[03:30] <ezenu3> yep, typo
[03:30] <effie_jayx> :D
[03:31] <effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, what up dude?
[03:31] <Lesley> tonyyarusso: you make me laugh!
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> effie_jayx: Oatmeal!  And skipping my first class, since I'd have to leave in 4 minutes and totally don't feel motivated.
[03:32] <Hobbsee> haha
[03:32] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: sounds good to me :)
[03:32] <Lesley> Hobbsee: still awake!
[03:32] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: where's the wiki link for getting my blog added to planet, btw?
[03:32] <elvstone> okay. i'm waiting for my new laptop (ordered last week), onto which i will install kubuntu. so now i'll stay here for the whole community thingie and you all have to learn an old FreeBSD fart ubuntu ;)
[03:32] <effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, where's the first class?
[03:32] <Hobbsee> Lesley: yeah, doing some work on REVU (eek)
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> effie_jayx: Here, half an hour
[03:33] <Hobbsee> Lesley: removing some packages, etc
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPlanet maybe?
[03:33] <effie_jayx> tonyyarusso, thnaks
[03:33] <fulat2k> elvstone: what laptop did u get?
[03:34] <elvstone> fulat2k: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/home/products/notebooks/amilo_si_1520.html <- this one, but with 2 GB instead of 1.
[03:34] <burner> seems like the first UbuntuOpenWeek thing starts in a half hour or so?  :)
[03:34] <elvstone> fulat2k: i looked at the ubuntu laptop testing pages and it seems to be reasonably supported.
[03:35] <fafek2> burner: That's right.
[03:35] <jono> Hobbsee, could you op me please
[03:35] <fulat2k> elvstone: nice.  looks very clen
[03:35] <fulat2k> clean
[03:35] <davmor2> Jono: 6 to go 5 to go
[03:35] <Hobbsee> jono: sure :)
[03:36] <tonyyarusso> burner: Go with a system76, so you can tell me how they are ;)
[03:36] <jono> thanks
[03:36] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i've cleaned up a bit more of REVU :)
[03:36] <elvstone> fulat2k: :)
[03:36] <jono> ph33l my p0w3r!
[03:36] <fulat2k> elvstone: better than the dells all over the office :)
[03:36] <whiprush> morning everyone!
[03:36] <gnomefreak> lol
[03:36] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:36] <jono> v.funny :P
[03:36] <Hobbsee> jono: :D
[03:36] <jono> I wondered what the hell had happened there :P
[03:37] <Hobbsee> jono: at least i didnt kickban you.
[03:37] <jono> woo!
[03:37] <Hobbsee> [01:36]  <-- jono has left this channel (requested by Hobbsee: " now you ph33l my p0w3r!!!!!!  :P").
[03:37] <jono> hehe
[03:37] <fulat2k> elvstone: got myself a core2duo desktop and i'm procrastinating to install kubuntu 6.10 on it :)
[03:37] <Hobbsee> which, i guess you couldnt undo either, as you're not on the access list
[03:37] <elvstone> fulat2k: ah. okay.
[03:37] <Hobbsee> fulat2k: make sure you install edgy on that, not dapper.
[03:38] <fulat2k> Hobbsee: correct me if i'm wrong, edgy == 6.10+?
[03:38] <gnomefreak> fulat2k: yes 6.10 = edgy
[03:38] <Hobbsee> fulat2k: yep.
[03:38] <Hobbsee> fulat2k: you may also need 915resolution (in universe) to get the widescreen resolution, if it's a widescreen machine
[03:40] <fulat2k> cool, then i should be set.  at least the live cd portion loaded properly :)
[03:40] <Jucato> Hobbsee!
[03:40] <dcomsa> is there a forum where an ubuntu user can find solution to common problems?
[03:40] <Hobbsee> Jucato!
[03:40] <Hobbsee> dcomsa: ubuntuforums.org
[03:41] <dcomsa> Hobbsee: thanks
[03:42] <dcomsa> but i was thinking at an howto
[03:42] <effie_jayx> hey all what UTC time is it? I am in south america and I'm alittle timelessly lost
[03:42] <dcomsa> for instance i had a problem with my headphones output until today
[03:42] <gnomefreak> dcomsa: depends on the problem
[03:42] <davmor2> 14:42
[03:42] <ezenu3> is kernel-generic like kernel-386?
[03:42] <dcomsa> and i want to post the solution
[03:42] <effie_jayx> davmor2,  thanks bro
[03:42] <gnomefreak> exo-griffith: i686
[03:42] <hernan43> mrng
[03:42] <dcomsa> somewhere accessible to others
[03:42] <gnomefreak> oops
[03:42] <gnomefreak> ezenu3: i686
[03:42] <burner> dcomsa: u can also try the wiki if it's appropriate
[03:43] <davmor2> jono 2 to go
[03:43] <dcomsa> burner: is there a ubuntu wiki?
[03:43] <gnomefreak> !sound
[03:43] <ubotu> If you're having problems with sound, first ensure ALSA is selected, by double clicking on the volume control, then File -> Change Device (ALSA Mixer). If you are still having problems with sound, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingSoundProblems  and http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=DmixPlugin
[03:43] <jono> :)
[03:43] <burner> dcomsa: wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:43] <stgraber> dcomsa: wiki.ubuntu.com
[03:43] <tonyyarusso> dcomsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
[03:43] <gnomefreak> dcomsa: please keep support question sin #ubuntu
[03:43] <dcomsa> :)
[03:43] <dcomsa> thanks all
[03:43] <dcomsa> i'm not asking for help
[03:44] <dcomsa> i just want to shorten others searches
[03:44] <burner> jono: since you're here and it's not yet classtime... lugradio is great!  and jokosher is great!
[03:44] <ezenu3> gnomefreak, so, I always used kernel-k7 cause my processor is AMD Athlon, but when I upgraded to edgy, it gave me kernel-generic. I guess I should switch back?
[03:44] <jono> burner, thanks! :)
[03:44] <gnomefreak> ezenu3: no thats fine
[03:45] <davmor2> Burner see now that's gone to his head and he'll not be able to concentrate
[03:45] <seb128> jono: I think that 200 will be no problem ;)
[03:45] <ezenu3> gnomefreak, it wouldn't be better to use the Athlon specific kernel?
[03:45] <gnomefreak> -generic is a few types of kernels rolled into one. smp is now in the generic. if 64 bit you still need the 64 bit kernels. (i cant remembe roff hand what the k7 provided
[03:45] <burner> eh... people need to know when they do good things davmor2 :)
[03:45] <rhk_> dcomsa: ubuntuguide.org
[03:45] <ubulinu> 200 users! jono, how cool is that?
[03:46] <effie_jayx> burner... overwhelming isn't it?
[03:46] <fulat2k> how much longer? :)
[03:46] <gnomefreak> 10-15 minutes
[03:46] <gnomefreak> give or take
[03:46] <effie_jayx> jono: great fan of your work... looking forward to jokosher :)
[03:46] <rhk_> ezenu3: i686 and K7 put together -> generic
[03:47] <jono> effie_jayx, thanks! :)
[03:47] <fulat2k> cool
[03:47] <davmor2> jokosher 0.2 rocks but 1.0 will rock harder
[03:47] <ezenu3> rhk_, ok, I guess there is no performance benefit to using k7 instead of generic, then?
[03:47] <effie_jayx> jono: will there be a spanish version anytime soon?
[03:47] <jono> effie_jayx, of Jokosher?
[03:47] <effie_jayx> jono: ajam
[03:48] <dholbach> 0.2 should be translated in a couple of languages, right?
[03:48] <gnomefreak> ezenu3: it has the k7 modules you wont tell the difference now please keep support questions in #ubuntu
[03:48] <jono> effie_jayx, I think its available in spanish now :)
[03:48] <rhk_> exenu3: There is no k7 for the new kernel versions, it's i386 or generic now..
[03:48] <rhk_> gnomefreak: right!
[03:48] <dholbach> effie_jayx: jokosher 0.2 will be available in a week or two in feisty
[03:48] <effie_jayx> jono: good... it will help people in my country alot..
[03:48] <jono> its in Chinese (China), Danish, Dutch, English (Philippines), English (United Kingdom), Esperanto, Finnish, French, German, Hebrew, Italian, Latvian, Norwegian Bokml, Polish, Portuguese, Portuguese (Brazil), Russian, Slovak, Spanish, Swedish, Tagalog, Welsh
[03:48] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  :D
[03:49] <effie_jayx> jono: WOW amazing work....
[03:49] <jono> :)
[03:49] <effie_jayx> jono: I am an EFL teacher trying to venture in translating a bit.. since I study Informatics Engineering.. so :)
[03:50] <ubulinu> effie_jayx: Where do you come from?
[03:50] <jono> effie_jayx, wow cool :)
[03:50] <davmor2> dholbach fantastic I can bug report again then
[03:50] <jono> brb
[03:50] <effie_jayx> ubulinu, Venezuela
[03:51] <effie_jayx> ubulinu, north of south america
[03:51] <cs_student> germany
[03:52] <effie_jayx> ubulinu, what about you?
[03:52] <effie_jayx> burner LOL
[03:52] <jono> :P
[03:52] <effie_jayx> burner didn't mean to maintream your idol
[03:52] <lotusleaf> *<:O)
[03:52] <burner> quick question... is there a description other than the title to these things for UbuntuOpenWeek?  like a syllabus or something?
[03:53] <jono> burner, not at the moment
[03:53] <jono> thee is a brief description on the main site
[03:53] <sjoeboo> burner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek has descriptions
[03:53] <alfmatos> judging by locations, not many are actually in UTC =)
[03:53] <devilsadvocate> burner,  there is a wchedule on the wiki
[03:53] <burner> just curious... i have to work a lot during this week, but knowing when I should try to be around would be nice ;)
[03:53] <effie_jayx> davmor2, LOL
[03:53] <burner> devilsadvocate: i saw that, but it only shows the title... like Ubuntu Desktop Team..  not much more detail
[03:54] <sjoeboo> burner: i hear you on the trying to fit some ni while working thing
[03:54] <fulat2k> alfmatos: most definitely not :)
[03:54] <fulat2k> any idea if the classroom chats are logged and posted for download later?
[03:54] <alfmatos> fulat2k, don't mind, i can represent for UTC =)
[03:54] <gnomefreak> fulat2k: yes
[03:54] <Panzerboy> hello all
[03:54] <gnomefreak> fulat2k: /msg ubotu logs
[03:54] <fulat2k> alfmatos: i'll represent for GMT +8 :P
[03:54] <davmor2> Jono broke 200
[03:55] <fulat2k> gnomefreak: cool.
[03:55] <jono> thrashing 200 :)
[03:55] <devilsadvocate> burner, there is some descriper lower in the page
[03:55] <fafek2> How meeting with Sebastian Bacher will look like? He'll only talk how to become an desktop team?
[03:55] <alfmatos> fulat2k, +8 ? where that exactly ?
[03:55] <fulat2k> alfmatos: southeast asia.
[03:55] <MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
[03:55] <fafek2> Errr... You know what I mean
[03:55] <exo-griffith> fulat2k, I'm in Beijing. :)
[03:55] <fulat2k> alfmatos: i'm in malaysia.
[03:55] <devilsadvocate> indai
[03:55] <tonyyarusso> fafek2: We'll find out ;)
[03:55] <devilsadvocate> india*
[03:55] <rhk_> GMT+2, Helsinki, Finland
[03:55] <malcc> jono: That should thin out the numbers some :)
[03:56] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: beijing is +8 too rite? :P
[03:56] <alfmatos> fulat2k, ok never been anywhere above GMT+2
[03:56] <exo-griffith> fulat2k, yes, it is.
[03:56] <fulat2k> alfmatos: you should try someday :)
[03:56] <fulat2k> alfmatos: i haven't been to anywhere less than +8 :P
[03:57] <seb128> hey mnepton
[03:57] <mnepton> oy!
[03:57] <ubulinu> effie_jayx: sorry, I was away... I'm Swiss, my wife is mexican. Bueno, saludos de suiza ;-)
[03:57] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: how's the weather there?  shanghai seems to be a bit windy/rainy rite?
[03:57] <alfmatos> fulat2k, have tried GMT-6 or so... but not higher =)
[03:57] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: any diff in beijing?
[03:57] <fafek2> One more thing. What's on 16.00? An hour long break before Packaging 101?
[03:57] <benjamin> Hello :)
[03:57] <seb128> mnepton: no need to panic, jono is on commands
[03:57] <mnepton> oh dear sweet jebus ...
[03:57] <effie_jayx> ubulinu,  great mix... swiss cheese and nachos.. viva mexico :)
[03:58] <Hobbsee> mnepton: no need to panic either.  i left a mattress down on the ground.  however, its' very far away from the window.
[03:58] <Hobbsee> hey pitti!
[03:58] <seb128> I'm sure mnepton will be happy to entertain people for one hour at 16utc
[03:58] <exo-griffith> fulat2k, windy, clear sky, nice orange moon, 2 deg C
[03:58] <BugMaN> hi
[03:58] <alfmatos> will the channel be moderated ?
[03:58] <farmer> Goodnight everybody need to work tomorrow please write nice things on the logs
[03:58] <seb128> hey pitti :)
[03:58] <jono> right
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> alfmatos: In some form - that was being debated earlier
[03:58] <jono> we nearly ready folks?
[03:58] <effie_jayx> ubulinu,  greeting from Maracaibo ... the land of the beloved sun
[03:59] <jayteeuk> Nearly time... and just as I think I might be able to participate in some form, a major incident kicks off.
[03:59] <jono> #########
[03:59] <fulat2k> exo-griffith: brr... nice.  it's really bad here.  monsoon season.. blech
[03:59] <Panzerboy> who's the presenter now?
[03:59] <jono> ok some house rules
[03:59] <Grishkin> wahahahahaha
[03:59] <gnomefreak> Panzerboy: seb128 will be
[03:59] <Panzerboy> gnomefreak: ok
[03:59] <jono> we don't want to quieten the channel unless absolutely needed
[03:59] <jono> so while seb128 is teaching, please be quiet
[03:59] <jono> discussion about the session can occur in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:00] <jono> feel free to discuss concepts there while the class is going on
[04:00] <Grishkin> great
[04:00] <jono> everyone ready?!!!
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> jono: If necessary to quiet, does seb128 want +z opt. w/ no ops, or something else?
[04:00] <jono> we will quieten it if needed, but I think we will be fine
[04:00] <jono> right seb128, take it away! :)
[04:00] <seb128> tonyyarusso: I think we are fine, thank you
[04:00] <Casanova> Grub_Now: !
[04:00] <seb128> ok
[04:00] <Grub_Now> pwned
[04:00] <gnomefreak> jono: only one problem people joining wont know
[04:00] <Casanova> Grub_Now: tempted
[04:01] <Grub_Now> Casanova: no, i was pwned
[04:01] <seb128> Good Afternoon Desktop Lovers :)
[04:01] <Panzerboy> jono: put it in the topic
[04:01] <jono> gnomefreak, I will update the topic
[04:01] <pitti> Good afternoon, Monsieur Bacher!
[04:01] <seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop
[04:01] <seb128> and I'll lead the discussion for the next hour apparently ;)
[04:01] <seb128> so let's get started
[04:02] <seb128> looks like we have some Desktop Team members around
[04:02] <seb128> want to present yourself quickly guys?
[04:02] <Hobbsee> gah
[04:02] <dholbach> Hello everybody, I'm Daniel Holbach, work with "magic" seb128 in the Desktop Team and help him to work on bugs, take care of accessibility related packages, look after Telepathy and Galago packages, try to keep our wiki clean, package new stuff, do a bunch of other things I forgot in the list and try to be there for everybody. I think the Desktop Team's secret to success is Hugging.
[04:02] <Panzerboy> come on guys :)
[04:03] <seb128> other desktop guys who want to say something? ;)
[04:03] <BugMaN> I'm BugMaN and i am admin of Italian Translation gruopu, and in free time i  help triage bugs in Desktop Team.
[04:03] <pitti> also, all sorts of i18n
[04:03] <Hobbsee> sorry guys :(
[04:03] <Grub_Now> pwned again
[04:03] <shastry> Grub_Now: he lies :|
[04:03] <buccaneer> Jee Willikers, I am in an Ubuntu Classroom
[04:03] <seb128> So the Desktop taking is basically the people who take care of the Ubuntu desktop and try to make it rocking
[04:03] <Grub_Now> darn
[04:03] <Grub_Now> Casanova: liar !
[04:03] <shastry> hmpf
[04:03] <seb128> I've some notes for the session
[04:04] <seb128> I'll copy then by block and people are free to comment after each ones
[04:04] <seb128> does it work for you?
[04:04] <Panzerboy> seb128: yeah
[04:04] <seb128> ok, let's go then :)
[04:04] <seb128> The main goals for the team are:
[04:04] <seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
[04:04] <seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
[04:04] <seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
[04:04] <seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
[04:04] <seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
[04:04] <seb128> 
[04:04] <seb128> Those are the major goals for the team
[04:05] <seb128> any remark or questions on that?
[04:05] <crevette> Hello
[04:05] <fafek2> How do you know which packages want Ubuntu users?
[04:05] <rmunn> How does the team decide what falls in the category of "desktop packages"?
[04:05] <Panzerboy> seb128: this includes all the xgl aiglx compiz beryl stuff?
[04:05] <seb128> fafek2: we look at forums, lists, bugs
[04:05] <gnomefreak> Panzerboy: no
[04:06] <seb128> Panzerboy: not really
[04:06] <jono> ssh people, lets do Q+A at the end of the tutorial section
[04:06] <seb128> there is a desktop-effects subteam for those
[04:06] <seb128> ok
[04:06] <gnomefreak> :)
[04:06] <Keyseir> holy ops batman
[04:06] <Panzerboy> seb128: ok :)
[04:06] <seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
[04:06] <seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
[04:06] <seb128> - the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list
[04:06] <seb128> we also look at launchpad bugs for desktop packages
[04:07] <seb128> so let's see the things you can do for the desktop team if you want to contribute
[04:07] <seb128> you can
[04:07] <seb128> * Work on Bugs:
[04:07] <seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
[04:07] <seb128> .
[04:07] <giskard> hi ;)
[04:07] <mnepton> seb128: you also get yelled at by weird people in montreal.
[04:07] <seb128> some points about bug management
[04:07] <seb128> mnepton: right :p
[04:07] <seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
[04:07] <seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
[04:07] <seb128>  * 236 members to date
[04:07] <seb128>  * ~60000 bug mails in the last year ;-)
[04:07] <seb128>  * Hug Days
[04:07] <Kenton> What is the workflow of a updated package?
[04:07] <seb128>  * forward useful bugs and investigate with upstream
[04:07] <seb128>  * make bug useful (reassign them to the right place, ask for required details, get debug backtrace for crashers, clean bugs that should be closed)
[04:07] <seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
[04:08] <Raiko> Hello
[04:08] <jono> Raiko, ssh
[04:08] <seb128> Kenton: let's discuss that after the presentation
[04:08] <seb128> there is not only bugs
[04:08] <seb128> there is also communication with other people
[04:08] <seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
[04:08] <seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the people we work with
[04:09] <seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
[04:09] <seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in
[04:09] <seb128> - work with other teams and Debian
[04:09] <seb128> people working on documentation:
[04:09] <seb128> * Documentation:
[04:09] <seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
[04:09] <seb128> .
[04:09] <seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
[04:09] <seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
[04:09] <seb128> - help the ubuntu-docs team
[04:10] <Keyseir> gnomefreak, I ran into some weird problems trying to burn a dapper install cd. I downloaded the iso, but the md5sums were different. Reactivated the torrent, it repaired itself for a second. unactivate, broken again. So I tried to leave the torrent open while burning, but the burn came out as a different md5sum sequence and the original iso was an even different sequence even though bt was still open.
[04:10] <seb128> next point: packaging:
[04:10] <seb128> * Packaging:
[04:10] <seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
[04:10] <seb128> .
[04:10] <seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
[04:10] <seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
[04:10] <seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
[04:10] <seb128> - package new softwares
[04:10] <tux75> salve a tutti
[04:10] <tux75> ho un paio di problemi con la mia ubuntu..
[04:11] <seb128> you can also help testing:
[04:11] <seb128> * Testing:
[04:11] <seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
[04:11] <Hobbsee> tux75: english only please
[04:11] <tux75> sorry
[04:11] <BugMaN> tux75: write in english please, (aspetta che finisce di parlare seb128)
[04:11] <seb128> and on other things too
[04:11] <seb128> * Other:
[04:11] <seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
[04:11] <seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: pda, printing, mono, telepathy, etc
[04:11] <seb128> 
[04:12] <seb128> I think I've listed most of the groups of things you can work on as a desktop team member
[04:12] <seb128> I'll mention some example of tasks to start now
[04:12] <tux75> i've a problem with my ubuntu: when i try to log in a terminal or into a console, i receive a FAIL_DELAY unknown error.
[04:12] <seb128> Examples of tasks to start:
[04:12] <seb128> - If you feel comfortable enough to reply to upstream comment about bugs there is a list of bugs that should be forwarded upstream available on http://tinyurl.com/yzd8t3 (you can also pick bugs not listed there yet, there is plenty of them not categorized to forward)
[04:12] <seb128> - Clean old 'NeedsInfo' bugs
[04:12] <seb128> - help out with packaging, maintaining, merging
[04:12] <seb128> - review bugs with patches attached
[04:12] <seb128> - look at bugs tagged as 'ubuntulove'
[04:12] <gnomefreak> tux75: join #ubuntu
[04:12] <seb128> - write about the new cool changes happening to the UbuntuDesktop world for UWN: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
[04:12] <seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam to make them useful, especially for new contributors (having an updated and useful https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO would be nice by example)
[04:12] <sabdfl> hey seb128
[04:13] <seb128> hello sabdfl
[04:13] <seb128> the starting point on the wiki for the desktop team is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GettingStarted
[04:13] <seb128> 
[04:14] <seb128> ok, so that's probably enough informations presented
[04:14] <seb128> let's do comments on that now
[04:14] <seb128> I'm not sure if the format is ideal, that's the first session ;)
[04:14] <dholbach> Considering the different teams: If you're good at any programming language, you will find that you can help out in the Desktop Team also, there are bindings and programs which use them for lots of different languages, for example Python, C++, Perl, Java and so on
[04:14] <at2000> are KDE and Xfce managed by other teams?
[04:14] <Hobbsee> at2000: yes
[04:15] <seb128> is that clear for everybody what the desktop team is doing and what you can do to contribute and how to join?
[04:15] <seb128> at2000: yes
[04:15] <daschl> seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
[04:15] <dholbach> at2000: yes, there's the kubuntu-team and xubuntu-team in http://launchpad.net/people
[04:15] <popey> makes sense seb128
[04:15] <popey> seb128: can i ask a question?
[04:15] <seb128> at2000: the desktop team is mainly focussed on the Ubuntu desktop (like the Ubuntu CD desktop)
[04:15] <mnepton> at2000: the workflows for those teams are roughly the same, with the same goals. mostly what changes is due to differences upstream.
[04:15] <Panzerboy> popey: don't ask to ask, just ask :)
[04:15] <popey> :)
[04:15] <seb128> hum
[04:15] <fafek2> Don't you have too much responsibilities?
[04:15] <seb128> jono: any idea for the format of questions?
[04:15] <seb128> like one at time
[04:15] <fulat2k> daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
[04:16] <seb128> and how we control that?
[04:16] <jono> I think its best to do things one at a time where we can
[04:16] <seb128> because if everybody asks away that's going to be not easy to manage
[04:16] <fulat2k> any possibility to include beta releases of packages in a separate repo? :)
[04:16] <gnomefreak> seb128: have them pm 1 user with the questions
[04:16] <popey> I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
[04:16] <Riot777> is there some window manager currently more important than other for Ubuntu desktop team or you are trying to support all the same way ?
[04:16] <finalbeta> Does ubuntu have any project that could use help on coding? perl/python/java/mono. I'm a mid leveled coder so fixing bugs is not my thing. Know several high languages and willing to learn a new one. Does Ubuntu have it's own programs apart from the installer?
[04:16] <seb128> ok, let's stop questions
[04:16] <dholbach> daschl: C, Python, C++ sometimes, and others
[04:16] <jono> ok no more questions for now
[04:16] <seb128> and get one question a time
[04:16] <popey> ok
[04:16] <jono> I will indicate when we accept questions
[04:16] <seb128> let me catch up
 seb128: i want to contribute in some way, but im afraid that my programming skills are enough. how many skills do i have to have? how many time do i have to spend on it approx. per week? thanks
[04:17] <seb128> daschl: no need of any particular skill
[04:17] <seb128> and as much time as you want to spend
[04:17] <seb128> if you spend 10 min a week to confirm some bugs
[04:17] <seb128> or make an useful bug report
[04:17] <snail> finalbeta: ubuntu has lots of programs other than the installer
[04:17] <seb128> or reply to an user support question
[04:17] <jono> ok everyone -> ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:18] <jono> then we can pick them out
[04:18] <seb128> any of that is useful
[04:18] <seb128> you don't need any particular skill
[04:18] <daschl> thanks
[04:18] <seb128> just pick something you feel comfortable doing
[04:18] <burner> regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
[04:18] <seb128> might be replying to some user, filling a good bug, forwarding something upstream, etc
[04:18] <seb128> .
[04:18] <seb128> next question
[04:18] <pitti> note: if somebody particularly likes a program and wants to help with bug triage, it would be incredibly helpful if you could establish a contact to upstream, forward bugs to him, discuss bugs, etc.; i. e. become the packages' 'ambassador'
 daschl: to add to the question, what kind of language do you guys usually use?
[04:19] <seb128> .
[04:19] <pitti> this doesn't require much programming skills, and is a valuable contribution
[04:19] <seb128> any language used by upstream
[04:19] <seb128> we don't write a lot of app from scratch
[04:19] <seb128> we get 95% of what we ship from upstream
[04:19] <seb128>  .
[04:19] <seb128> pitti has a good point
[04:19] <seb128> that's something which is especially appreciate
[04:19] <fulat2k> seb128: point noted
[04:20] <pitti> ... and is rewarded with lots of hugs, and even more important, better quality
[04:20] <pitti> :)
[04:20] <seb128> if you have interest in a package and want to work on it and as a contact point for it that's really appreciate
[04:20] <pitti> ... and KARMA
[04:20] <seb128> by the distro team
[04:20] <gnomefreak> lol
[04:20] <seb128> by upstream
[04:20] <mnepton> finalbeta: pitti's and seb's comments address your question. if you're interested in writing new code rather than triaging, packaging, or applying small modifications, look upstream to the GNOME, KDE, or XFCE desktop projects.
[04:20] <seb128> and by users
 I have ideas for applications that I'd like to develop. I'd really value a mentor, someone who could help me over the initial hurdles of getting started
[04:21] <seb128> popey: you can create a specification for that, or mail a list with your ideas
[04:21] <popey> which list?
[04:21] <seb128> ubuntu-desktop if that's something for the desktop
[04:21] <popey> it is
[04:22] <seb128> ok, so mail the list
[04:22] <popey> ok, will do
[04:22] <seb128> good
[04:22] <popey> thanks
[04:22] <jono> everyone, prefix your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with QUESTION so we can spot them easily :)
 regarding "new ideas," what would be the preferred way to receive these?  so far, I just created an .odt file with screenshots and mockups and text about the general plan, would that suffice?  I notice a wiki page for something similar, is that checked? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Visions
[04:22] <gnomefreak> :)
[04:22] <dholbach> writing a specification and track it in launchpad is a good idea for writing a new app also
[04:22] <seb128> burner: I've to admit that .odt is not my preferred way ;)
[04:23] <seb128> the wiki is nice
[04:23] <seb128> you can also mail the desktop list (with your .odt if that makes the presentation easier for you)
[04:23] <davmor2> is there a preferred level of detail for bugs I understand that this doesn't work isn't that uesful but what do you class as acceptable
[04:23] <popey> thanks dholbach
[04:24] <seb128> davmor2: details on what you were doing, version of Ubuntu you are using
[04:24] <seb128> if the crash happens on a document, having an example attached is useful
[04:24] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures may help in some cases also
[04:24] <gnomefreak> pitti: ambassidor = maintainer?
[04:25] <seb128> for a bug a debug backtrace (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash) is usually required to do something with the bug
[04:25] <dholbach> gnomefreak: no, not necessarily. that's somebody being interested and working on the package
[04:25] <seb128> s/bug/crash
[04:25] <pitti> gnomefreak: FSVO 'maintainer'; this is mainly a communication issue
[04:25] <gnomefreak> k
[04:25] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: can everyone write a spec in launchpad? does it mean I intend to work on that spec or just suggestion of a feature?
[04:25] <seb128> 
[04:26] <seb128> at2000: anybody can write a spec yes
[04:26] <seb128> no need to work on it, though it make it easier to be implemented
[04:26] <seb128> we all are already pretty busy
[04:26] <xerxas> being an ambassador for a package is an "abstract" role, right ? there's no such thing in launchpad, right ?
[04:26] <seb128> and there is not a lot of extra new things we can implement with only the core team work
[04:26] <seb128> xerxas: right
[04:27] <sabdfl> xerxas: that's a good point, we should make that an explicit role
[04:27] <xerxas> I think it would be a good idea
[04:27] <seb128> me too
[04:27] <xerxas> I would like to become ambassador on at least one package, which one, I don't know
[04:27] <seb128> that would make things easier for upstream too
[04:27] <gnomefreak> i like that too but having more than one will get confusing
[04:27] <seb128> they would know who to contact
[04:28] <xerxas> gnomefreak,  so we'll need some ambassador helpers
[04:28] <DShepherd> /top
[04:28] <xerxas> or "ambassador assistant"
[04:28] <mnepton> gnomefreak: write the spec. :)
[04:28] <Stemp> isn't one of the role of the package maintener ?
[04:28] <gnomefreak> i will work on it later today
[04:28] <seb128> Stemp: we don't have a fixed maintainer
[04:28] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: translation is dealt upstream?
[04:29] <seb128> DreamLost: I'm not sure to get the question, and it's not really desktop specific
[04:29] <seb128> translations come from rosetta
[04:29] <xerxas> sabdfl, what's up with this ambassador role ?
[04:29] <seb128> we import upstream translations and people are free to work on them from rosetta
[04:29] <BugMaN> DreamLost:  translation in Rosetta start from Upstream
[04:29] <xerxas> should I write a spec for launchapd ? or make a feature request somewhere ?
[04:29] <wrjevowar> quit
[04:30] <BugMaN> DreamLost: but some times ubuntu have new string in a package different from upstream
[04:30] <jpetso> are the rosetta translations fed back to upstream, and if yes, how?
[04:30] <seb128> DreamLost: does that reply to your question?
[04:30] <seb128> jpetso: no
[04:30] <DreamLost> yes, tnks
[04:30] <davmor2> if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
[04:30] <seb128> jpetso: rosetta team is working on some feature to make easier for them to get the changes though
[04:31] <seb128> davmor2: questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[04:31] <seb128> next one
 QUESTION: Are there more localized teams wornking with the ubuntu-desktop-team.?
[04:31] <seb128> effie_jayx: can you explain what you want to know exactly?
[04:32] <effie_jayx> there is an ubuntu grpoup
[04:32] <effie_jayx> in my country
[04:32] <seb128> like if there is a desktop-team-<locale>?
[04:32] <effie_jayx> are people already contributing from there as a group
[04:32] <effie_jayx> I don't want to oversee the effort of other groups in my region
[04:32] <seb128> the desktop-team works on the Ubuntu packages
[04:32] <seb128> that effort is not splitted by region or group
[04:33] <seb128> you are probably speaking about a locoteam
[04:33] <effie_jayx> ajam... I just want to know that ... thanks
[04:33] <seb128> the efforts are not overlaping, don't worry
[04:33] <seb128> ok
[04:33] <seb128> next one
 QUESTION: are there Kubuntu/Xubuntu Desktop Teams too?
[04:34] <seb128> Jucato: yes, there is a kubuntu and a xubuntu team
[04:34] <sabdfl> xerxas: perhaps chat with folks on #launchpad, then it could turn into a small feature spec, yes
[04:34] <seb128> next question
[04:34] <seb128> QUESTION: what would be the best way to find which packages are in need of maintainers/packagers?
[04:34] <xerxas> sabdfl, thanks
[04:34] <seb128> no easy way at the moment I would say
[04:35] <seb128> look if the package is usually quickly updated
[04:35] <seb128> and on the work done on its bugs
[04:35] <Hobbsee> anything that has the maintainer set as debian qa, too.
[04:35] <Hobbsee> (i think)
[04:35] <dholbach> if you're interested in a certain package, you can ask about it on ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com
[04:35] <seb128> Hobbsee: that's for Debian
[04:35] <Hobbsee> seb128: true
[04:35] <seb128> Hobbsee: a package with no Debian maintainer can have somebody taking care of it on the Ubuntu side
[04:35] <seb128> that is a good question though
[04:35] <Hobbsee> seb128: true, but how likely is that?
[04:36] <seb128> it would be interesting to have some information at the launchpad level about that
[04:36] <mvo> or we could use watch files from debian when available
[04:36] <seb128> like "how actively a package is maintained"
[04:36] <seb128> anybody having good idea on how to evaluate that?
[04:37] <seb128> mvo: right, please open a launchpad feature request (if not already filed) :)
[04:37] <xerxas> QUESTION: can I close some bugs that are in NEEDINFO for a long time (what does a long time mean ?)
[04:37] <sabdfl> we do track the idea of a maintainer for a package in Launchpad
[04:37] <xerxas> (I'm having hard times making decision with malone )
[04:37] <sabdfl> debian asked us to distinguish between the debian maintainer and the ubuntu maintainer or team
[04:38] <seb128> xerxas: question on -chat please, yes, usually I wait one month and close it if there is no reply to the request for informations about the problem
[04:38] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: if a program crashes where would you find a printable log in order to send a copy I have had this issue a couple of times?
[04:38] <kappa> the difference between versions of a package in Ubuntu and in upstream can be used as a measure of active maintaintership
[04:39] <seb128> davmor2: since edgy "apport" will created a crash file when a crash happens
[04:39] <seb128> davmor2: they are stored to /var/crash
[04:39] <Grishkin> grishkin@ULTRA:/media/cdrom$ ls /var/crash
[04:39] <Grishkin> ls: /var/crash: No such file or directory
[04:39] <seb128> davmor2: you can read about it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
[04:39] <srikanthssn> seb128, what about drapper ?
[04:40] <crosis> dapper, not drapper
[04:40] <seb128> srikanthssn: for GNOME programs bug-buddy is open after the crash and you can get the bt from it
[04:40] <seb128> srikanthssn: otherwise cf https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash (use gdb)
[04:40] <seb128> 
[04:40] <seb128> next question
 QUESTION: what is the process to submit a patch for a package? is this documented somewhere?
[04:41] <seb128> at2000: attach it to the corresponding bug to launchpad
[04:41] <seb128> if there is no bug open one
[04:41] <leks> QUESTION: May I ask, why patches fixing eth0 (e1000) on my ibm t60 are in edgy, but not in feisty?
[04:41] <leks> T60 Thinkpad
[04:41] <seb128> leks: question to -chat please, and I don't know about that, not really desktopish :)
[04:42] <at2000> so someone will review the pack and check-in if appropriate?
[04:42] <at2000> do I need to do anything to the bug report to notify someone to review?
[04:42] <seb128> at2000: correct
[04:42] <seb128> no
[04:42] <at2000> ic
[04:42] <burner> seb128: are there any plans for better remote access support via the Desktop team here or would that be more of a gnome/kde/xfce thing?
[04:42] <seb128> people will get the mail about your patch
[04:42] <seb128> burner: question to -chat please
[04:42] <seb128> next one
 QUESTION: say i want to fix a bug. this bux was fixed in upstream how can i get that into the ubuntu package? how can i handle the "ok i have a bug here, what should i do next"-thing?
[04:42] <seb128> 
[04:42] <seb128> daschl: that is a good question
[04:43] <seb128> daschl: open a bug to launchpad saying it's fixed upstream and you would appreciate a backport of the fix
[04:43] <seb128> pointing to the upstream commit or attaching a patch make the job easier for us
[04:43] <seb128> or pointing the corresponding upstream bug
[04:43] <dholbach> we have a canned bug search for "patch attached"
[04:43] <seb128> we tend to backport only annoying issue and not every glitch fix though
[04:44] <daschl> i c .. thanks!
[04:44] <seb128> so better to not flood us with request to backport every commit
[04:44] <seb128> we would be happy to backport lot of patches but it's a lot of work and we have only few people working on desktop packages atm
[04:45] <seb128> hint: you can help making a package better by co-maintaining it ;)
[04:45] <daschl> so more people working = more backports available, right?
[04:45] <seb128> daschl: correct :)
[04:45] <seb128> 
[04:45] <seb128> next one for dholbach
 QUESTION: is there something like 'debian wnpp' for ubuntu ?
[04:46] <seb128> I think we have some wiki page for that
[04:46] <bhale> revu?
[04:46] <seb128> dholbach usually knows the wiki better than me :)
[04:46] <bhale> wiki.ubuntu.com/revu
[04:46] <seb128> bhale: wnpp is "I would like to get that packaged"
[04:46] <bhale> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
[04:46] <seb128> bhale: REVU is only for things already packaged no?
[04:46] <dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
[04:46] <bhale> seb128: oh, i was thinking of something else then
[04:46] <apokryphos> ubotu: revu
[04:46] <ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[04:46] <bhale> ITP, not RFP
[04:47] <bhale> lart me please
[04:47] <dholbach> (ITP = Intent to package, RFP = Request for package)
[04:47] <seb128> proppy: <dholbach> if you refer to Debian's ITPs and RFPs it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates
[04:47] <seb128> here you go :)
[04:47] <dholbach> which has moved to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates :-)
[04:47] <proppy> seb128: thanks
[04:48] <seb128> np
[04:48] <seb128> next question
[04:48] <mherweg> MOTU ?
 QUESTION: How many package currently fall under the duristiction of the desktop team to give us some idea of how much work you have?
[04:48] <Hobbsee> lots.
[04:48] <apokryphos> mherweg: /msg ubotu motu
[04:48] <seb128> https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs
[04:48] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs
[04:48] <seb128> 1813 bugs assigned
[04:48] <seb128> 2345 bugs subscribed
[04:49] <seb128> we looked recently with dholbach and all the desktop-bugs (closed one included) is like 7500 bugs
[04:49] <pikkio> lots of work :)
[04:49] <seb128> and there is probably a good bunch not assigned to the team
[04:50] <seb128> dholbach: https://launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packages is empty, did it use to work?
[04:50] <davmor2> seb128 so does that include the packages you have to update or is that just physical bugs
[04:50] <seb128> we used to have a table of the packages with number of bugs I think
[04:50] <Hobbsee> davmor2: physical bugs
[04:50] <seb128> davmor2: bugs
[04:50] <dholbach> seb128: that's only for packages, where desktop-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com is the maintainer
[04:50] <seb128> davmor2: I'm not sure about packages, it's about an hundred I would say
[04:50] <dholbach> seb128: you mean https://bugs.launchpad.net/people/desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
[04:51] <davmor2> okay
[04:51] <seb128> see the link from dholbach
[04:51] <seb128> it has a list of packages
[04:51] <seb128> dholbach: thank you :)
[04:51] <dholbach> :-)
[04:51] <seb128> next one
[04:51] <seb128> (10 min left)
 QUESTION: is there any way to work on packages on the currently stable release, without having to set up stable+1?
[04:52] <Hobbsee> by using a pbuilder, or dual booting
[04:52] <Hobbsee> !pbuilder
[04:52] <ubotu> pbuilder is a system to easily build packages in a clean chroot environment. To get started with PBuilder, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
[04:52] <seb128> jpetso: not easy, some apps don't change a lot though
[04:52] <seb128> or pbuilder
[04:52] <seb128> or you can still help on the wiki, packaging new apps if the requirements are available on stable
[04:52] <seb128> or triage bugs
[04:52] <seb128> or reply to support requests
[04:52] <pitti> some desktop applications are a bit hard to work on in chroots/pbuilder; for these, vmware comes in handy
[04:52] <jpetso> ok :)
[04:53] <giskard> pitti, what apps?
[04:53] <seb128> next one
[04:53] <pitti> giskard: things like gdm, dbus, etc.
 QUESTION: Do you favour slab over the standard gnome interface for menu's?
[04:53] <seb128> .
[04:53] <seb128> davmor2: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-slab
[04:53] <pitti> or any app that requires newer libraries, etc.
[04:53] <giskard> pitti, ahhhh! oki :)
[04:53] <seb128> davmor2: that's the spec about that, the reply is "no"
[04:53] <seb128> we will likely ship it on the CD
[04:54] <seb128> maybe with a desktop profiles app which allow to switch profiles easily
[04:54] <seb128> but we will not pick a different default than upstream
[04:54] <strosset> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:54] <jono> get your final questions in people!
[04:54] <jono> five mins left!
[04:54] <strosset> \join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:54] <guebay> What does UTC mean? Here is 16:54 (Timezone Berlin). How can I calculate now what this is in UTC?
[04:54] <jono> although we can run over a little as there is no session next
[04:54] <andre> strosset: /
[04:54] <seb128> next
[04:54] <dholbach> guebay: date -u
[04:54] <giskard> guebay, date -u
[04:54] <seb128> good question
[04:54] <strosset> thx
 QUESTION: You mentioned the ubuntulove tag in launchpad. What does it mean?
[04:54] <seb128> 
[04:54] <Hobbsee> guebay: see the tinyurl link in the topic, too
[04:54] <giskard> dholbach, :
[04:54] <jpetso> guebay: UTC = Berlin - 1
[04:55] <seb128> exo-griffith: that's an "if you look at something to do", like something easy to start and useful
[04:55] <seb128> dholbach has tagged a bunch of those bugs
[04:55] <seb128> I'm trying to do that too
[04:55] <seb128> we will put extra work on that and the TODO list too
[04:55] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs has a "Tasks" section
[04:56] <exo-griffith> so they're a good place to start then?
[04:56] <seb128> it's a way to make easy for people to find something they can start on
[04:56] <seb128> right
[04:56] <seb128> because there is so many component, not easy to know where to start
[04:56] <seb128> we are trying to figure way to make that first step easier
[04:56] <exo-griffith> Cool. Thanks. I'll check them out. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntulove
[04:56] <seb128> if you have any suggestion on the topic feel free to join #ubuntu-bugs to discuss them at any time :)
[04:57] <seb128> or #ubuntu-desktop
[04:57] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: what is the process for updates (bug fixes and security patches)? how long does it take for bugs that have been patched/fixed upstream to be patched in a current release?
[04:57] <bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[04:57] <seb128> Jucato: for stable updates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[04:57] <seb128> for unstable version?
[04:57] <seb128> as fast as we can come to it
[04:58] <pitti> Jucato: for security bugs, we work independently from upstream releases
[04:58] <seb128> as mentionned before we have some thousand bugs
[04:58] <leks> QUESTION: Did ubuntu decide between compiz and beryl already ?(go for compiz!)
[04:58] <seb128> and an hundred packages
[04:58] <pitti> Jucato: when there is a patch, we review/QA/test it and issue an USN
[04:58] <bhale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures
[04:58] <Jucato> alright, thanks! :)
[04:58] <gnomefreak> sabdfl pitti the spec for ambassadors is already made https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ambassadors
[04:58] <seb128> and only a couple of people working on them
[04:58] <seb128> so it can take some time
[04:59] <apokryphos> leks: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please =)
[04:59] <gnomefreak> nvm
[04:59] <seb128> ok
[04:59] <leks> sorry :-$
[04:59] <seb128> hour is over but there is no session next and still some QUESTION
[04:59] <seb128> so let's keep going :)
[04:59] <Hobbsee> seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
[04:59] <seb128> Hobbsee: -chat please
[04:59] <jono> ## well, you lucky people, there is no session for the next hour so seb is going to keep going while the questions are coming - keep posting the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:59] <Hobbsee> seb128: that was from -chat
[04:59] <jono> :)
[05:00] <Hobbsee> seb128: i just missed the name
[05:00] <seb128> Hobbsee: oh, I pick them in order, no need to bother, thank you :)
[05:00] <Hobbsee> okay
[05:00] <seb128> Hobbsee: or do you want to copy them in order?
[05:00] <seb128> Hobbsee: (you skipped one)
[05:01] <seb128> waouh, lot of questions
[05:01] <Hobbsee> seb128: wasnt trying to.  thought you were picking and choosing, due to time.
[05:01] <Hobbsee> yes, exactly
[05:01] <seb128> ok, let's select
[05:01] <Rawplayer> hi
[05:01] <Hobbsee> hence i picked one that you definetly want to answer, as it gets asked a lot
[05:01] <seb128> Hobbsee: please copy there the interesting one then
[05:01] <seb128> good
[05:01] <Hobbsee> i just did.
[05:01] <seb128> please include the name :)
[05:01] <seb128> so I know who I reply to :)
[05:02] <Hobbsee> it ran away...looking...
[05:02] <Hobbsee> seb128: <daschl> QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
[05:02] <seb128> let's give a quick reply to the previous one
 seb128: QUESTION: is there a "step-by-step" tutorial out there for "how-to-fix-my-first-bug" which includes the procedures and so on?
[05:02] <seb128>  Hobbsee Hobbsee|Remote
[05:02] <seb128> since that's a good question
[05:02] <seb128> no tutorial afaik
[05:03] <seb128> but an excellent idea
[05:03] <Hobbsee> wasnt jono writing one?  where would it be put?
[05:03] <seb128> so if anybody wants to work on one
[05:03] <dholbach> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-August/019922.html has information for getting your patch uploaded into the archive
[05:03] <daschl> i'm really lost when it comes to that topic ;)
[05:03] <dholbach> attaching a patch to a bug report is a very good start, or filing a bug at all and testing patches that come up :)
[05:03] <seb128> any contribution to lower the first step for people who want to contribute is welcome :)
[05:04] <seb128> dholbach: the issue is that "writting a patch" is not something easy for beginners
[05:04] <Dannilion> ;...;[p....,,,kkkkkk,,,,,llllll;pppp[##
[05:04] <pointwood> yeah, a tutorial would be very welcome
[05:04] <seb128> we should document how to make a patch
[05:04] <dholbach> surely not
[05:04] <Dannilion> '''iiiioip'#
[05:04] <Dannilion> #~#''''] ] ########
[05:04] <daschl> i wanted to ask that too.. because i dont know how to create a patch but i thought this is not a desktop-related problem
[05:05] <dholbach> "Patching packages!" a talk by pitti later this week
[05:05] <seb128> ACTION; jono to write some nice tutorial
[05:05] <pointwood> what info should I provide when I want to report some hardware that doesn't work? example: a printer
[05:05] <Hobbsee> seb128: he's on the phone
[05:05] <dholbach> Thu 30th Nov 18:00 UTC
[05:05] <seb128> ok
[05:05] <dholbach> pointwood: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:05] <seb128> daschl: good point, we are going to fix that :)
[05:05] <seb128> Hobbsee: next question ?
[05:05] <daschl> thanks seb
[05:05] <seb128> np
[05:06] <Hobbsee> seb128: <pikkio> QUESTION: when a bug is fixed in launchpad, will be always fixed in upstream as well?
[05:06] <seb128> no
[05:06] <seb128> pikkio: few upstream read launchpad bugs at the moment
[05:06] <seb128> if you can encourage upstreams to do so you are welcome :)
[05:06] <seb128> otherwise we need to "forward" bugs upstream
[05:06] <pikkio> ok, thanks :)
[05:06] <Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: What are priorities of Desktop Team now, apart from specs for Feisty Fawn?
[05:06] <seb128> that's a part of the bug triage work I mentionned before
[05:07] <seb128> if you are confident a bug is upstream you can file it to their bug tracker directly too
[05:07] <seb128> 
[05:07] <pikkio> i'll do it :)
[05:07] <seb128> fafek2: catch up with bug flood, package new versions of desktop apps
[05:08] <dholbach> and package new exciting apps :-)
[05:08] <seb128> working on documentation etc to make easier for people to join the team
[05:08] <seb128> the specs have already enough goal to keep the core team busy for the cycle actually
[05:08] <fafek2> I mean what's the vision? How Ubuntu should look like in your opinion?
[05:08] <seb128> any specific point?
[05:09] <seb128> we are likely to have a composite manager installed by default for feisty (compiz or beryl)
[05:09] <Hobbsee> the releated question there:  <kai[sds] > QUESTION: what is the long term vision for the ubuntu-desktop beyond feisty? what are the areas you are not satisfied with yet (regarding features not bugs)?
[05:09] <seb128> and I think we might give a try to tracker
[05:09] <dholbach> we'll have exciting Telepathy bits and bobs :-)
[05:09] <seb128> and telepathy too, right
[05:09] <giskard> yeah!
[05:09] <seb128> no "long term" vision
[05:10] <jonibo> What's the advantage of tracker over beagle???
[05:10] <bhale> "the coolest new stuff"
[05:10] <seb128> we want better visual experience
[05:10] <seb128> and the best from upstream world
[05:10] <seb128> visual bling is compiz or beryl atm
[05:10] <bhale> tracker is more lightweight than beagle
[05:10] <kai[sds] > seb: so basically gnome defines that vision?
[05:10] <seb128> we will likely work on a better GDM experience too
[05:10] <seb128> kai[sds] : not only GNOME, but upstream
[05:10] <seb128> compiz or beryl are not part of GNOME
[05:11] <jonibo> bhale: due to it not being Mono?
[05:11] <seb128> tracker neither
[05:11] <bhale> jonibo: no
[05:11] <seb128> jonibo: beagle is another option
[05:11] <seb128> we have nothing decided yet
[05:11] <giskard> seb128, compiz or beryl will be handled by ubuntu-desktop?
[05:11] <seb128> and that's not going to be a quick discussion
[05:11] <seb128> better to not start it here today :)
[05:11] <seb128> giskard: ubuntu-desktop-effects
[05:12] <seb128> giskard: member of ubuntu-desktop will look at it too for pretty sure
[05:12] <giskard> ok.
[05:12] <seb128> especially if that's part of the default desktop
[05:12] <Hobbsee> seb128: *grin*
[05:12] <seb128> next :)
[05:12] <giskard> :)
[05:12] <seb128> Hobbsee: next one please :)
[05:13] <Hobbsee> QUESTION: How do you choose which program to use as default (using the compiz/beril example)?
[05:13] <seb128> hum
[05:13] <kai[sds] > but shouldn't people think about some kind of direction and not just go with the upstream flow? i mean upstream there are lots of nice innovations, but they probably dont look at the desktop as a whole
[05:13] <Hobbsee> (seb128: there are a lot of beryl/compiz related questions)
[05:13] <seb128> that's not easy to choice
[05:13] <seb128> there is our feeling about the software
[05:13] <gnomefreak> that is not really the -desktop teams products
[05:13] <seb128> how upstream is responsive
[05:13] <seb128> user feedback on it
[05:13] <seb128> etc
[05:13] <mvo> the technical comite will choose in the end AFAIK
[05:14] <jonibo> biggest question I would have about desktop effects is:  how do you avoid leaving people with old graphics card behind?
[05:14] <WebMaven> jonibo: make the effects optional.
[05:14] <seb128> fallback to metacity for such configs
[05:14] <seb128> we need to work a good way to know if effects are working fine for that though
[05:15] <seb128> it'll be one box to click to have effects or not anyway
[05:15] <Hobbsee> seb128: i think that's a wider question than just compiz/beryl, fyi - how do you decide out of all gnome apps which to include?
 that's not easy to choice
 there is our feeling about the software
[05:15] <Hobbsee> ah, missed that
 how upstream is responsive
[05:15] <seb128>  user feedback on it
[05:15] <seb128>  etc
[05:15] <Hobbsee> sorry, was scrolling for more questions
[05:15] <seb128> np
[05:15] <jonibo> But that means you are maintaining two systems: one with and one without effects.
[05:15] <seb128> lot of activity :)
[05:16] <seb128> jonibo: any other solution?
[05:16] <jonibo> no, not really.
[05:16] <seb128> we don't have neither
[05:16] <jonibo> but it's important that some people keep working on systems without effects...
[05:16] <seb128> but if you figure one we will be happy to read about it :)
[05:16] <jonibo> to make sure that they still work ok.
[05:16] <seb128> yeah
[05:16] <seb128> to be honest metacity is stable enough
[05:16] <seb128> and we don't expect lot of work on it
[05:16] <jonibo> hard to work up an interest to work on systems without effects when you can have them...
[05:16] <seb128> but we will keep shipping both
[05:17] <jonibo> good.
[05:17] <Amaranth> jonibo: Don't worry, I'm sure there will be people that don't use beryl/compiz just because they don't like it. :)
[05:17] <seb128> not true
[05:17] <Hobbsee> seb128: <elvstone> QUESTION: Is there any cooperation going on between the Kubuntu and the Ubuntu Desktop Team? I'm a soon-to-be Kubuntu laptop user.
[05:17] <seb128> some people like visual bling
[05:17] <seb128> some other don't
[05:17] <jonibo> alright... I hope that's the case.
[05:18] <seb128> Hobbsee: on the area used by both we try
[05:18] <jonibo> i think the metacity/compiz separation is quite safe... it's when more effects get integrated into the core applications that things get sluggish on older systems.
[05:18] <seb128> elvstone: on the area used by both we try
[05:18] <seb128> like pitti looked at some kubuntu printing bugs after updating cups I think
[05:19] <elvstone> seb128: okay :)
[05:19] <seb128> mvo has a look on some kubuntu specs similar to the Ubuntu ones he works on too
[05:19] <elvstone> does Kubuntu have a "Desktop Team" of its own?
[05:19] <dneary> Hi
[05:19] <dholbach> dneary: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[05:19] <Hobbsee> elvstone: kubuntu has a whole lot of people in #kubuntu-devel
[05:20] <Lure> elvstone: there is just kubuntu-team
[05:20] <apokryphos> elvstone: not specifically. Since the main difference in Kubuntu is the desktop
[05:20] <seb128> elvstone: no, "kubuntu-team" is sort of "KDE Desktop"
[05:20] <Hobbsee> elvstone: so sort of.
[05:20] <seb128> other parts are common
[05:20] <elvstone> okidok.
[05:20] <Lure> elvstone: and you can join kubuntu-team (if you want to be notified of kde bugs in launchpad)
[05:21] <elvstone> Lure: ah. okay.
[05:21] <elvstone> i really want my laptop now :) it will be in stock 1 dec.
[05:21] <seb128> Hobbsee: next?
[05:21] <pip> Hello all
[05:22] <apokryphos> elvstone: cool; be sure to join us in #kubuntu around then :)
[05:22] <Hobbsee> [03:21]  <oz__> QUESTION: are there thoughts to include a preconfigured install-server in ubuntu?
[05:22] <elvstone> apokryphos: will do.
[05:22] <pip> Hobbsee: did I miss something exciting ?
[05:22] <Hobbsee> pip: yes, but there are logs.  see the /topic for more info
[05:23] <seb128> hum
[05:23] <seb128> "install-server"?
[05:23] <seb128> that doesn't look like "DesktopTeamIsh" to me
[05:23] <Hobbsee> seb128: <DreamLost> QUESTION: do you use any automatic testing tools? Given being hard to test GUIs...
[05:23] <jackflap> so did any suse developers show up?
[05:23] <seb128> good question
[05:23] <seb128> DreamLost: not at the moment
[05:23] <jackflap> hehe
[05:23] <seb128> but that's a good remark
[05:23] <Hobbsee> jackflap: #ubuntu-classroom-chat for chat
[05:23] <seb128> and something we would be happy to set up
[05:24] <oz__> seb128: are only desktopish questions allowed now?
[05:24] <seb128> there is that "Announcing dogtail: a GUI automation and test framework"
[05:24] <somerville32> Did I miss Sebastien Bache's session?
[05:24] <seb128> which could be interesting to look at
[05:24] <Hobbsee> oz__: as that's what this team is about, yes
[05:24] <eugene> dogtail is pretty useful for automating gui testing
[05:24] <seb128> if something is interested to make that happen
[05:24] <seb128> oz__: that's the "Desktop Team" session, so better to ask desktop questions yep
[05:25] <seb128> oz__: there is plenty of non-desktop session during the week for other questions :)
[05:25] <seb128> somerville32: still doing Q and A on it
[05:25] <seb128> DreamLost: do you want to work with us to set up some automatic testing suit for the Ubuntu desktop?
[05:25] <seb128> that would be really cool :)
[05:26] <DreamLost> :) stil a litle over my league im afraid :)
[05:26] <seb128> k
[05:26] <seb128> still a good thing
[05:26] <Hobbsee> seb
[05:26] <seb128> if anybody has interest in it
[05:26] <Hobbsee> seb128: <fafek2> QUESTION: Do you develop Ubuntu administration applets?
[05:26] <seb128> let me know :)
[05:27] <seb128> fafek2: no, we use gnome-system-tools for that at the moment
[05:27] <seb128> we already had several discussion if that would be worth starting writing new tools from scratch
[05:27] <mvo> seb128: if software-properties is a administration applet, then yes, some
[05:27] <seb128> we didn't for now though
[05:27] <seb128> right, depending on what you can "administration applets"
[05:28] <seb128> package managers are administration tools too :)
[05:28] <Rawplayer> webmin?:)
[05:28] <seb128> Rawplayer: I'll not reply to that :-P
[05:28] <juliux> webmin is evil;)
[05:28] <samgee> quit
[05:28] <mherweg> yast!
[05:29] <seb128> next question
[05:29] <seb128> QUICK
[05:29] <seb128> before having the chan going out of control :p
[05:29] <N7C> hi ppls
[05:29] <Hobbsee> seb128: <bhale> QUESTION: Who does Daniel Holbach's hair?
[05:29] <seb128> bhale: I suspect it's mvo
[05:29] <seb128> but we can't say for sure
[05:29] <giskard> ahahah
[05:29] <dholbach> bhale: EEHHHHH?
[05:30] <Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: will Network-Manager ever get installed by default, probably in feisty? plus updated configuration tools, to use it?
[05:30] <seb128> pitti?
[05:30] <pitti> that's the plan
[05:30] <seb128> leks: I think it'll be by default for feisty
[05:30] <seb128> pitti will know better
[05:30] <siretart> .oO( if only nm wasn't that buggy... )
[05:30] <pitti> we will teach it to work better with manual configurations and integrate better with network-admin
[05:31] <Hobbsee> seb128: <leks> QUESTION: Will the brown ever be ditched, as mark formerly said once? (After the fourth release or something)  sabdfl?
[05:31] <pitti> yeah, and bug fixing is a must
[05:31] <seb128> pitti: thank you :)
[05:31] <_ion> If i may say something related to the earlier tracker vs. beagle question: tracker is not only an indexer, but it also functions as a generic metadata store. For example, if programs use tracker for tagging files, the tags are shared between all programs. Nautilus and the Gtk file dialog could hypothetically have a similar tagging widget as F-Spot has. A library could be made so that any program could easily use such widget.
[05:31] <Amaranth> _ion: We know.
[05:31] <_ion> amaranth: I'd guess the person who asked the question didn't.
[05:31] <jayteeuk> pitti: How do I get involved?  I'd love to see NM as a default install.
[05:31] <seb128> leks: you will be happy to know that Ubuntu is orange since dapper ;)
[05:31] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: we have theme teams who are working on complete themes, and if one of those meets the test of being (a) classy and (b) distinctive it could become a new default theme
[05:31] <sabdfl> leks: ^^^
[05:32] <apokryphos> leks: this is covered well in Mark's wiki page. Basically little in Ubuntu will be very static, so yeah, it may well (and has) changed over time
[05:32] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you want to reply to leks, i'm just pasting questions :)
[05:32] <pitti> jayteeuk: test it thoroughly, report bugs, work with upstream to get them resolved
[05:32] <pitti> jayteeuk: we need all hands we can get for this
[05:32] <giskard> jayteeuk, and triage bugs ;)
[05:32] <Hobbsee> seb128: <somerville32> QUESTION: One of the SABDFL's goals for feisty was the adoption of emerging desktop technologies. What are these emerging desktop technologies and what goals have the desktop team set to align themselves with this direction?
[05:32] <apokryphos> somerville32: one of two window managers possibly. Beryl or compiz. Some information:
[05:33] <apokryphos> ubotu: beryl
[05:33] <ubotu> Beryl is a window manager that takes advantage of an OpenGL accelerated X environment. See http://forum.beryl-project.org/ - Help in #ubuntu-xgl
[05:33] <apokryphos> ubotu: compiz
[05:33] <ubotu> Compiz (compositing window manager) and XGL (X server architecture layered on top of OpenGL) - Howto at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager - Help in #ubuntu-xgl - See http://tinyurl.com/pw5ez for Kubuntu systems
[05:33] <seb128> fafek2: I've read your note about disk-admins on the other chan. The code was not good, but right would be nice to have a new tool for that. I might work on it that cycle, depending on busy I am. If you want to start a such project you are welcome :)
[05:33] <jayteeuk> pitti: And is there a spec available on the wiki or similar to help me understand how NM interacts with other parts of the system?
[05:33] <pitti> jayteeuk: not to my knowledge; but feel free to ping me in #ubuntu-devel about this
[05:33] <apokryphos> somerville32: what will probably happen is that for able systems (good enough graphics cards) they'll adopt one of these window managers by default. These have some cool effects, such as wobbly windows, nice animations, etc. See above pages
[05:34] <Hobbsee> seb128: [03:33]  <eliteforce> QUESTION: when will a really stable version of ubuntu be released, without xx bugs in core components (:
[05:34] <jayteeuk> pitti: OK thanks.
[05:34] <seb128> somerville32: cf discussion on compiz,beryl from some questions ago, we might have a look on beagle or tracker too, and dholbach and the telepathy team are looking on telepathy
[05:34] <seb128> eliteforce: when upstream stop writting boggus program :)
[05:35] <somerville32> :)
[05:35] <seb128> eliteforce: joke aside, we do our best to fix bugs, it's not always easy since there is lot of them
[05:35] <seb128> dapper was pretty good I think
[05:35] <seb128> edgy was a very short cycle so it has not been easy
[05:36] <seb128> anybody can make a difference here by helping fixing a bug :)
[05:36] <daschl> ill try to do so
[05:36] <daschl> :)
[05:36] <seb128> excellent
[05:37] <seb128> you can get hugs on #ubuntu-bugs for any bug you fix, just let know dholbach :)
[05:37] <daschl> so i did it with gnu/linux in general.. a friend of mine helped me with my first steps and now i want to give back to the community what i got
[05:37] <daschl> i just realized that i can talk german with dholbach ;D
[05:37] <seb128> that's the spirit :)
[05:38] <seb128> hehe
[05:38] <seb128> with mvo or pitti
[05:38] <seb128> too
[05:38] <seb128> lot of german guys around :)
[05:38] <amarillion> I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
[05:38] <juliux> daschl, see also #ubuntu-de
[05:38] <eliteforce> i think "stable" releases should be delayed sometimes, to get more bugs fixed
[05:38] <daschl> oh :D .. i just wanted to sign the code of conduct but it seems that the keyserver need some time
 QUESTION: If you install a *ubuntu-desktop metapackage, is there an easy way to remove all the dependences, so you remove the desktop environment?
[05:39] <seb128> binary2k2: apt-get remove *ubuntu-desktop
[05:39] <seb128> apt-get autoremove
[05:39] <seb128> that feature is available for apt since edgy
[05:39] <jonibo> daschl: keyserver has been problematic for the last week... i've been trying too.
[05:39] <seb128> hugs go to mvo for that one
[05:39] <fabbione> eliteforce: stable doesn't necessarely mean bug free. stable means that has a constantly predictable behaviour.. including bugs
[05:39] <leetcharmer> hail, all :D
[05:39] <davmor2> seb128 shouldn't those be sudo apt-get remove
[05:39] <elvstone> seb128: so apt-get autoremove *ubuntu-desktop?
[05:39] <seb128> eliteforce: we delayed dapper for 6 weeks
[05:39] <elvstone> seb128: or is it two commands?
[05:39] <leetcharmer> how's it goin' everyone?
[05:40] <seb128> elvstone: no, "apt-get autoremove"
[05:40] <stalefries> !hi | leetcharmer
[05:40] <ubotu> leetcharmer: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-classroom!
[05:40] <elvstone> seb128: ah. okay.
[05:40] <seb128> elvstone: it cleans everything marked as to remove
[05:40] <elvstone> seb128: alright.
[05:40] <leetcharmer> I'm here for open week :D which part are we at?? Packaging?
[05:40] <seb128> davmor2: correct, faster to not type sudo to every command on IRC though :)
[05:40] <seb128> leetcharmer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[05:40] <Amaranth> leetcharmer: desktop team. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:41] <seb128> davmor2: we are still doing question for the 15utc one since the 16utc slot was free
[05:41] <seb128> ups
[05:41] <seb128> that was for leetcharmer
[05:41] <leetcharmer> seb128, thanks :D
[05:42] <seb128> np ;)
[05:42] <leetcharmer> what did we learn so far? (if I can ask here.)
[05:42] <Hobbsee> !logs > leetcharmer
[05:42] <seb128> leetcharmer: we are doing questions and answers for one hour now, not easy to summarize
 QUESTION: What do you feel is the biggest obstacles facing the Ubuntu desktop team at this time and how do you plan to overcome these obstacles?
[05:42] <Hobbsee> seb128: were you after more questoins pasted, or will you scroll for htem?
[05:43] <seb128> Hobbsee: I just picked one
[05:43] <Hobbsee> bah, that's what i was about to paste :)
[05:43] <seb128> did you copy one I didn't notice?
[05:43] <seb128> hehe
[05:43] <Hobbsee> seb128: the other:  [03:37]  <Grishkin> QUESTION: will KDE4 , firefox 2 and any other new apps be ever backported on dapper?
[05:43] <Hobbsee> answer both :)
[05:43] <seb128> somerville32: clearly the number of bugs at the moment I would say
[05:44] <seb128> overcome: make easier for people to help and try to get upstream helping us when possible too
[05:44] <seb128> there is just too many of them for the number of people looking at them at the moment
[05:44] <seb128> we tried to work lot of extra hours, that doesn't scale
[05:44] <seb128> we need your help :)
[05:44] <gnomefreak> firefox and kde4 shouldnt be backported anywhere afaik Hobbsee
[05:44] <seb128> your being anybody who wants to give a hand
[05:44] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i didnt ask the question
[05:44] <seb128> Grishkin: no
[05:44] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i'm just pasting
[05:45] <gnomefreak> oh
[05:45] <Grishkin> seb128 , thanks
[05:45] <stani> will kde4 be ready for kubuntu feisty?
[05:45] <Hobbsee> no
[05:45] <gnomefreak> stani: not liekly
[05:45] <seb128> Grishkin: the backport team does backport apps
[05:45] <elvstone> definately not i'd say.
[05:45] <Hobbsee> stani: there's a preview in the repositories at the moment, but it wont be out in time.
[05:45] <seb128> those are not easy to backport though
[05:46] <seb128> especially if they can break other apps
[05:46] <TLE> Hey so there's a session on pacakging in about 15 min right ?
[05:46] <seb128> like firefox is used by epiphany-browser, devhelp, yelp, etc
[05:46] <RadiantFire> i was under the impression a feisty CD was going to be remastered to contain KDE4 whe it was releasd
[05:46] <seb128> TLE: correct
[05:46] <jonibo> GSmartMix?  Will it be ready for Feisty?
[05:46] <Hobbsee> ask the gsmartmix devs
[05:47] <seb128> RadiantFire: might be, that's not Ubuntu though, that would be a special milestone CD for KDE4 probably, better to ask to the kubuntu team
[05:47] <apokryphos> RadiantFire: if it's out in feisty's time, yeah. But not for dapper, almost certainly.
[05:47] <apokryphos> (i.e. kde release date is still open; it may be feisty+1 time till it's out, depending on KDE TB plan of action)
[05:48] <seb128>  QUESTION: I've experienced it's very hard to get started fixing bugs. What are your plans for making it easier for outsiders to join the bugfixing process?
[05:48] <seb128> amarillion: what do you find hard?
[05:48] <Hobbsee> seb128: i think we're planning to have repos for it, at some point.  not sure for which releases though
[05:48] <nosse> what should I learn if I want to squash bugs? and is there an irc channel somewhere full of people wanting to help me to start?
[05:49] <dholbach> nosse: #ubuntu-bugs
[05:49] <seb128> as dholbach said
[05:49] <amarillion> for example: I joined the mailing list for a while. But the amount of bugs is completely overwhelming. So I stopped that immediately
[05:49] <dholbach> and ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com of course
[05:49] <stani> A maybe small request is possible in the channel topic to mention also the current topic, eg now "Ubuntu Desktop" I know it is possible to look it up,etc... but it would be more nice.
[05:49] <amarillion> It would be nice if there was a way to say... get 10 random bugs each weak
[05:49] <nosse> thanks
[05:49] <Hobbsee> seb128: did we want to have a 10 min break between sessions?
[05:50] <seb128> Hobbsee: yep, we want
[05:50] <seb128> we will stop on that bug fixing one I think
[05:50] <seb128> thank you everybody for the questions
[05:50] <apokryphos> I quite like the KDE method of "JJ:" prefixes for bugs, which indicates Junior Jobs
[05:50] <apokryphos> k
[05:50] <jonibo> thanks for the great work, Desktop Team!!!
[05:50] <seb128> many were good one and we had interesting discussions I think
[05:50] <amarillion> apokryphos, that sounds like a nice idea
[05:51] <seb128> feel free to join #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-bugs if you have any other question
[05:51] <seb128> jonibo: thank you :)
[05:51] <jonasj> j #ubuntu-desktop
[05:51] <daschl> thank you seb128
[05:51] <jonasj> oops, sorry
[05:51] <stani> thanks
[05:51] <giskard> when packaging?
[05:51] <apokryphos> few minutes
[05:51] <seb128> amarillion: we discussed that exact thing during the conf we had recently
[05:51] <daschl> time to make tea ;D
[05:51] <seb128> amarillion: that's somewhat what the "ubuntulove" task is for
[05:51] <Stemp> thank you seb128
[05:51] <Hobbsee> time to go to bed!
[05:52] <apokryphos> 'night Hobbsee
[05:52] <giskard> thank you seb128 :)
[05:52] <Lesley> nite hobbsee
[05:52] <Hobbsee> night apokryphos
[05:52] <daschl> Hobbsee: what time is it?
[05:52] <Dannilion> Goodnight Hobbsee
[05:52] <mL_> quit
[05:52] <Hobbsee> daschl: 4am
[05:52] <seb128> amarillion: we will work in that direction anyway, making clear notes on how to start and having list of easy tasks for that
[05:52] <daschl> Hobbsee: ooh :D .. gn8
[05:52] <Hobbsee> daschl: coudlnt you see some of hte times as i pasted them with the questions?
[05:52] <seb128> Hobbsee: thank you for helping on the meeting
[05:52] <seb128> Hobbsee: you did a good work :)
[05:52] <seb128> thanks everybody
[05:52] <amarillion> seb128: thanks, I would like to see that
[05:52] <daschl> Hobbsee: i didn't remeber them
[05:52] <dholbach> thanks seb128
[05:53] <Jucato> thanks for the class
[05:53] <davmor2> thanks seb128
[05:53] <dholbach> :-)
[05:53] <javamaniac> hugs hour?
[05:53] <seb128> hi andre :)
[05:53] <fafek2> Have a nice day! Good buy!
[05:53] <fafek2> * bye!
[05:53] <andre> :)
[05:53] <Hobbsee> seb128: :)
[05:55] <elvstone> damn i really have to go shopping when i get off work in 3 min.. will be a bit late for packaging.
[05:55] <elvstone> everybody stall it! :)
[05:55] <somerville32> :D
[05:56] <Celldweller> what in the world is this room for lol... do i have to enroll
[05:56] <Celldweller> sounds fun
[05:56] <newz2000> elvstone: it's logged and there are other packaging sessions planned
[05:56] <newz2000> Celldweller: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
[05:56] <nalioth> elvstone: there will be transcripts
[05:56] <apokryphos> Celldweller: check the channel topic for all the info.
[05:57] <bettsp> Has anyone converted the Open Week calendar to iCal format? That way, people could add it to Evolution and it'd do the time zone'ing automatically
[05:57] <Jucato> nalioth: offtopic... where are the transcripts for the NWN Ubuntu classes I missed?
[05:58] <levander> Jucato: you've checked the URL in the topic?
[05:58] <TLE> bettsp: there's a google calender with appropriate timezones it can imported into evolution
[05:58] <somerville32> TLE: Is anyone keeping the google calendar up to date?
[05:58] <Jucato> levander: yeah. I was sort of looking for transcripts, not just logs, but thanks anyway :)
[05:58] <rmjb> TLE: evolution isn't respecting the timezone difference
[05:59] <TLE> somerville32: I assume it's being done automatically :: rmjb oh sorry, I wasn't aware if that
[05:59] <TLE> rmjb: well then export from google to ical, wouldn't that work ?
[06:00] <davmor2> !logs
[06:00] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[06:00] <rmjb> I have the google calendar in evolution in ical format, but it didn't shift the times
[06:00] <dholbach> Hello everybody! We'll move on to  Packaging 101  now. If you have any questions, can you PLEASE move them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and add "QUESTION:  " to them, to make them easier readable
[06:01] <dholbach> I'll have a look every now and then and answer them, if they refer to what I'm currently talking about, if not we can deal with them later.
[06:01] <dholbach> If you want to become part of the MOTU team, or help out with packaging in general, apart from knowing how to write or debug code, it's good to know the tools the distribution uses.
[06:01] <Adri2000> hi :)
[06:01] <dholbach> This session won't make you a packaging expert, but afterwards you will have heard of some things, which will make it easier to find your way around. There'll be a MOTU session on Wednesday, 15.00 UTC and Saturday on 16.00 UTC, which will cover what the MOTU team does in more detail.
[06:02] <xeruno> why isn't this channel moderated?
[06:02] <dholbach> Please run the following command, it will take some time to work in the background.
[06:02] <dholbach>     sudo apt-get install pbuilder; sudo pbuilder create
[06:02] <_tx> hi
[06:03] <dholbach> rmjb: MOTUs are the "Master of the Universe", the team of maintainers that takes care of the package in Universe and Multiverse - that's where you start as a package maintainer.
[06:03] <dholbach> rmjb: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[06:03] <dholbach> Packaging - what does that involve?
[06:03] <dholbach>  * adding enough information to the Upstream source, to make it buildable on a minimal system.
[06:03] <dholbach>  * split the installed files up into separate packages depending on the target audience
[06:03] <xeruno> dholbach, could you please moderate this channel?
[06:04] <dholbach>      ^- example everybody uses libgtk2.0-0, but not everybody has an interest in libgtk2.0-dev
[06:04] <apokryphos> with +z would be better
[06:04] <dholbach> come on guys, that's not necessary at the moment
[06:04] <dholbach> move chatter and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[06:04] <jpetso> xeruno: it worked before, i think it's ok to trust everyone on being quiet
[06:05] <dholbach>  * make the packages work out of the box
[06:05] <dholbach>  * add copyright information, nice description, documentation, etc.
[06:05] <dholbach> Package maintenance involves far more than that, Jordan Mantha (Laser_away) will give a talk about that later today at 21.00 UTC and Thursday at 20.00 UTC.
[06:05] <dholbach> First we'll install some tools we'll need for the session:
[06:05] <dholbach>    sudo apt-get install devscripts dpkg-dev build-essential
[06:06] <_tx> what about complying programs in Ubuntu to be able to work on all the platforms (ppc, x86, and x86_64)
[06:06] <dholbach> I also prepared an example package we'll use also:
[06:06] <dholbach>    mkdir 101; cd 101; wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/packaging101.tar.gz
[06:06] <jonh_wendell> dholbach: what does pbuilder create do?
[06:06] <dholbach> jonh_wendell, _tx: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please and add "QUESTION:" to your questions
[06:06] <giskard> _tx, we have autotools for this kind of stuff (if i understand correctly your question)(btw, question on -chat)
[06:06] <nmsa> C(01:06) <@dholbach>    mkdir 101; cd 101; wget http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/packaging101.tar.gz
[06:07] <nmsa> sorry :)
[06:07] <dholbach> I learned most from looking at existing packages and trying to fix them, so let's take a look at the libsexy package. It's the one in feisty, I broke a bit to illustrate a few common problems you'll face in the daily work as a package maintainer or Ubuntu developer.
[06:07] <dholbach> If you untar the packaging101 tarball, you'll find the following files:
[06:07] <dholbach>   libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.diff.gz  libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc  libsexy_0.1.10.orig.tar.gz
[06:07] <_tx> Some things I write don't work well with ppc or x86 but work well on the x86_64 namely my system.
[06:08] <dholbach> Together they make the source package. The .orig.tar.gz is called the 'original upstream tarball', the '.diff.gz' file is the changes we need to do to make the package buildable and working correctly in Ubuntu. The .dsc provides meta information like checksums, etc.
[06:08] <dholbach> To unpack the source package run
[06:08] <dholbach>   dpkg-source -x libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc
[06:08] <dholbach> If you change into the directory and have a look into it, you'll find a debian/ directory, which contains the packaging information.
[06:09] <dholbach> Let's try to build the package now. You can use dpkg-buildpackage, but running debuild is easier mostly. So to run a build, simply type
[06:09] <dholbach>   debuild
[06:09] <dholbach> 
[06:09] <dholbach> in the directory.
[06:09] <_tx> Question:How well do users give you feedback here?
[06:09] <dholbach> The friendly build script might now ask you to install some build dependencies, after you did that, it should be spitting out some interesting messages.
[06:10] <dholbach> _tx: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:10] <mattl> jono: all set?
[06:10] <dholbach> in my case the build is complaining (among other things) about the following:
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c: In function 'sexy_tooltip_new_with_label':
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:143: warning: implicit declaration of function 'gtk_label_new'
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:143: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:144: warning: implicit declaration of function 'gtk_label_set_markup'
[06:11] <dholbach> sexy-tooltip.c:144: warning: implicit declaration of function 'GTK_LABEL'
[06:11] <dholbach> It's a problem I added myself. :-)
[06:11] <jonh_wendell> :)
[06:11] <dholbach> We will need to patch the source to make it build again.
[06:11] <dholbach> If you have a look at debian/rules you will see that it mentions /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/simple-patchsys.mk - after working with packages for a while that it means you can use cdbs-edit-patch to add a patch. Martin Pitt (pitti) will give a separate session on how to patch packages on Thursday, 18:00 UTC.
[06:12] <dholbach> First we run     fakeroot debian/rules clean      to clean up our existing build again.
[06:12] <dholbach> next we run       cdbs-edit-patch 01-fix-gtk-breakage
[06:13] <dholbach> as I said before, pitti will explain what happens then :-)
[06:13] <pitti> correction: patching source packages will be Tuesday 18:00 and Thursday 17:00 UTC
[06:13] <dholbach> thanks pitti
[06:14] <dholbach> (Note:  cdbs-edit-patch  needs  cdbs  installed.)
[06:14] <dholbach> Once we're presented with a subshell, in a directory like /tmp/cdbs-new-patch.R29983/libsexy-0.1.10.new , we edit  libsexy/sexy-tooltip.c  with our editor of choice
[06:15] <dholbach> and add a missing     #include <gtk/gtk.h>
[06:15] <dholbach> just below the existing   #include
[06:15] <dholbach> now save the file, and hit Ctrl-D
[06:16] <dholbach> ls debian/patches/       should show our shiny new patch
[06:16] <dholbach> Now we run         debuild       again and see if we fixed the package.
[06:17] <dholbach> It looks like our attempt succeeded.
[06:18] <dholbach> ls ../*.deb    will show us the packages we made
[06:18] <dholbach> I'll answer a bunch of questions after the next step.
[06:18] <dholbach> As I explained above, part of the packaging work is trying to make sure that a package builds in a minimal environment also. Why?
[06:19] <dholbach> Because on our build daemons, a minimal system will be created for each package build to make sure it works in every, even a fresh, scenario.
[06:19] <dholbach> We will now generate a new source package with the changes we made earlier.
[06:19] <dholbach> fakeroot debian/rules clean
[06:20] <dholbach> debuild -S -sa
[06:20] <dholbach> should take us there.
[06:20] <dholbach> cd ..; sudo pbuilder build libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc      should give the pbuilder some work and we can take a look at a few questions.
[06:20] <guebay> What is the diff between debuild and dpkg-buildpackage?
 QUESTION: what's  cdbs
[06:21] <dholbach> cdbs is a collection of scripts that make packaging, especially writing debian/rules (a Makefile to automate the package build) a lot easier, by simplifiying common tasks.
 QUESTION: Will the script disregard temporary editor files when it does the patch ?
[06:22] <dholbach> TLE: I'm not sure what you mean with editor files
[06:22] <giskard> xeruno, and.. you can read the package Description: (apt-cache show cdbs)
[06:22] <giskard> dholbach, i guess .swp or file~
[06:22] <dholbach> It's better to get rid of them. They will show up in the .diff.gz and in case of binary files make the build fail.
 QUESTION: is there a short manual on how to make simple packages? like to create package for krusader from source?
[06:23] <dholbach> I will later post some links to help with packaging, but I fear that packaging will always be a bit tough in the beginning.
 QUESTIION: Will debuild automagically add all patches in the debian/patches directory
[06:24] <dholbach> amarillion: the rules in debian/rules (namely simple-patchsys.mk) takes care of that
 QUESTION/ASSERTION: It only succeeds if my name is Daniel Holback
[06:24] <giskard> ahah
[06:24] <dholbach> bettsp: I'm sorry, yes you're right. Either disregard the message or run    debuild   with  -k<your keyid>
 QUESTION: you refer to 'our build daemon' is that kind of pbuilderd ?
[06:25] <seb128> (it works too when it can't sign the package)
[06:25] <seb128> (that's just a warning)
[06:25] <bettsp> dholbach: You forgot to run the S-expression I added in the next line to fix my misspelling of your name :)
[06:25] <dholbach> proppy:  the build daemons ( https://launchpad.net/+builds ) use sbuild, which is very similar
[06:25] <dholbach> bettsp: yes, I should have said "please add"
[06:26] <dholbach> Ok, my pbuilder is 'finished' now - we'll get back to questions later again.
[06:26] <dholbach> funnily enough the build fails with:
[06:26] <dholbach> checking for PACKAGE... configure: error: Package requirements (pango >= 1.4.0, glib-2.0 >= 2.4.0, gtk+-2.0 >= 2.4.0, libxml-2.0) were not met:
[06:26] <dholbach> No package 'gtk+-2.0' found
[06:26] <dholbach> This is because libgtk2.0-dev is not installed in the minimal environment I was talking about, but how does pbuilder know what to install?
[06:27] <dholbach> if you edit   debian/control   you will find the line    Build-Depends
[06:28] <dholbach> This line indicates the packages that need to be installed to build the package correctly. We'll just add  libgtk2.0-dev
[06:28] <dholbach> after that we'll run   debuild -S  again
[06:28] <dholbach> please note that this time we don't need to run   fakeroot debian/rules clean   why?
[06:29] <proppy> (cause we build using pbuilder)
[06:29] <dholbach> because the build happened in that clean environment, not in the source dir - another good point about using pbuilder
[06:29] <dholbach> let's run      sudo pbuilder build libsexy_0.1.10-1ubuntu1.dsc         again and see if we get it working now
 QUESTION: What all does fakeroot debian/rules clean do?
[06:30] <dholbach> levander: it runs the   clean   target of the upstream source (so whatever the upstream maintainer thought should be cleaned), plus   dh_clean  and rules you set up yourself
 QUESTION UPDATE, if I edit the source with emacs, emacs creates a temp file, will the script disregard that when it makes the diff for the patch ?
[06:31] <dholbach> TLE: I'm not sure which file you're referring to. I'm emacs illiterate - sombody else please answer. :-)
 QUESTION: How would we know from the error message mentioning 'gtk+-2.0' that the package we need is 'libgtk2.0-dev'? Is there a convention for figuring this out?
[06:32] <nmsa> j #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:32] <dholbach> daxelrod: excellent question.
[06:32] <engla> Emacs will create a sexy-tooltip.c~ backup file, and that will be included in the diff if you don't remove it
[06:32] <engla> likewise will gedit by default
[06:32] <dholbach> One answer to that is: experience with packaging. But there are also some indicators of where to look:
[06:33] <jordi> TLE: if you mean backup files, yes, the "debhelper" system is smartyt enough to not ignore them, but get rid of them when you "clean" the package.
[06:34] <dholbach> In the configure script it failed, because it tried to look up in /usr/lib/pkgconfig
[06:34] <dholbach> so if the build fails for you in pbuilder, but works if you run on your system, you can easily check that directory and find out, where and why it went wrong
[06:34] <dholbach> apt-cache search <...>   or   apt-file search <...>  can help also
[06:35] <dholbach> The pbuilder build worked for me right now, but there are still some things that are weird:
[06:36] <giskard> check configure.ac is another solution ;)
[06:36] <dholbach> If you run    dpkg -c /var/cache/pbuilder/result/libsexy-doc_*.deb  (which displays the contents of the package), you will find it's nearly empty
[06:36] <dholbach> it merely contains a couple of changelogs and copyright notices - what went wrong?
[06:37] <dholbach> If we look into the debian/ directory, you will see that it contains a couple of *.install files
[06:37] <dholbach> these files mention which directories and files are supposed to be installed into which package
[06:38] <dholbach> debian/libsexy-doc.install is empty
[06:39] <dholbach> if you run         debuild     (to build the package again) and     dh_install --list-missing   afterwards, it will present you with a list of files that were not installed into any package
[06:40] <dholbach> once we add    debian/tmp/usr/share/gtk-doc/html   to    debian/libsexy-doc.install   it will contain something
[06:40] <dholbach> now we can run     debuild binary   to not have to go through the whole procedure again, but only rebuild the packages
[06:41] <dholbach> You will find that if you run       dpkg -c libsexy-doc*.deb     again, it will contain the documentation
[06:42] <dholbach> I introduced some more bugs into the package, but given that we only have 19 minutes left, we should probably move on to some more questions.
 QUESTION: debian/libsexy-doc.install doesn't exist
[06:43] <dholbach> hum, it existed for me - anyway, it was supposed to be an empty file.
 Q: install pbuilder is still on, slow connection, will it install a new env. will get all packages from net? is doing validation on retrieved packages ... 'thnx
[06:44] <dholbach> nmsa: it's not installing all packages, but only a very minimal set, needed to build packages - cjwatson: which packages are considered by debootstrap?
[06:45] <dholbach> build-essential   will be contained in any case.
 QUESTION: Are *.install files cdbs specific?
[06:45] <dholbach> Florob: no, they're not. They're scanned by dh_install.
 QUESTION: which is the preferred format for documentation? Should you provide docs in a certain format if they aren't provided upstream?
[06:46] <dholbach> manpages are a good example of documentation that sometimes does not exist.
[06:46] <dholbach> It's always good to push it back to the upstream developers afterwards again.
[06:47] <dholbach> I don't have a link on manpages handy, but I could find you one. I have a template I always use to get started on them.
[06:47] <at2000> which packages are considered by debootstrap? the list is in the script /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/<version>
 QUESTION: is the *.install file method the correct way for one source package to have multiple binary targets? like a lib, lib-dev, -doc and so on?
[06:48] <dholbach> rmjb: some people use *.dirs files or run dh_install to debian/<binary package name> on their own, I personally prefer the .install file method
 QUESTION: how about policy on packages. I read executables on /usr/bin must have manpages.
[06:48] <dholbach> manpages are not a strict must have, but they come in very handy and users are gratefule for manpages
 QUESTION: Is it possible to have pbuilder setup to work in multiple releases concurrently?
[06:49] <dholbach> somerville32: there's a page on the MOTU wiki about that - if nobody finds it out in the next minutes, I can try after the talk
 QUESTION: can i build for any version deboostrap supports?
[06:50] <sol> Should all packages install to /usr? What's the use of /usr/local?
[06:50] <sol> Should all packages install to /usr? What's the use of /usr/local?
[06:50] <dholbach> xhaker: you can either set up a chroot for yourself (I think that's what most developers do), because that way you can test the resulting binary packages yourself, or you can have multiple differently configured pbuilders
[06:50] <gnomefreak> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto?highlight=%28pbuilder%29
[06:50] <dholbach> sol: /usr/local is for software you install yourself (like if you use ./configure && make && sudo make install)
 QUESTION: pbuilder extracts the minimal system and then downloads additional dependencies.. does it cache them? for how long? where?
[06:51] <dholbach> xhaker: yes, it does in /var/cache/pbuilder/aptcache/
[06:51] <xhaker> ;)
[06:51] <dholbach> I think it stores the packages until they're superseded by a newer version
[06:52] <dholbach> are there any other questions?
[06:52] <gnomefreak> dholbach: i grabbed the page for somerville32
[06:52] <dholbach> If you run into any other packaging related trouble and don't know where to look in the documentation, your first check could be similar packages, then ask the people on #ubuntu-motu or on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
[06:52] <rmjb> thanks for a great session dholbach
[06:52] <proppy> dholbach: 18:50 <proppy> <proppy> QUESTION(bis): can i chroot inside a pbuilder
[06:52] <proppy>                environment to debug a packaging failure ?
[06:53] <jonh_wendell> do we have to do a clean before every debuild? even if we change just 1 char in some file?
[06:53] <engla> thanks, I learnt a lot (even though I built debs before)
[06:53] <dholbach> proppy: yes, you can       sudo pbuilder login    can help with that
[06:53] <proppy> dholbach: thx
[06:53] <cjwatson> debuild cleans for you unless you use the -nc option
[06:53] <guebay> dholbach: thumbs up :)
[06:53] <jono> ok five min  break
[06:53] <jono> till the next session
[06:53] <Jucato> yay!
[06:54] <dholbach> jonh_wendell: no you don't - you can run   debuild binary   to benefit from a previous build and just restart from wherever the build failed
[06:54] <dholbach> thanks everybody
[06:54] <amnesia> dholbach: thanks for the session, good job!
[06:54] <dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu or on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
[06:54] <Florob> jono: great, now it really feels like school ;)
[06:54] <dholbach> thanks a lot
[06:54] <sol> thanks :-)
[06:54] <fernando> dholbach: thanks
[06:54] <amarillion> Thanks dholbach. That is certainly a lot of information to absorb
[06:54] <nmsa> dholbach: thank you
[06:54] <ifmy> dholbach: thanks
[06:54] <scott> no thank you dholbach
[06:54] <xhaker> see you in motu
[06:54] <DraxNS> nice class dholbach
[06:54] <somerville32> Thanks :)
[06:55] <amarillion> Florob, not unless you get homework
[06:55] <thekorn> thanks dholbach
[06:55] <jono> :P
[06:55] <alfmatos> dholbach, nice, thanks a bunch.
[06:56] <somerville32> The PBuilderHowto page is kind of confusing.
[06:56] <dholbach> sorry, I forgot:          https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation      <[06:57] <berndl> a question which has partly to do with packaging: are there plans on creating a community driven repository (with really up to date packages) like arch-linux has?
[06:58] <engla> it would be nice with not only a log, but a cleaned-up summary on the wiki pages (with links). But you know, we could all help out with that if we get to start with the log
[06:58] <engla> that way this week could be saved in a box for all
[06:58] <jono> engla, I am going to encourage people to summarise the sessions too
[06:58] <jono> would be useful
[06:58] <LaserJock> berndl: that would be the Universe and Multiverse repository
[06:58] <siretart> berndl: sort of. I have plans to make REVU, a reviewing platform doing something similar
[06:58] <engla> jono: I'm thinking we could link the schedule items to subpages
[06:59] <jono> right
[06:59] <engla> I'll help
[06:59] <jono> :)
[06:59] <nalioth> engla: jono if you like, you can use w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
[06:59] <jono> the sessions so far have been awesome
[06:59] <jono> nalioth, :)
[07:00] <berndl> laserjock: yeah, sort of :) but i think it is much easier to get into packaging for everyone in arch than in ubuntu. but perhaps this is the reason we're here to make things easier... :)
[07:00] <elvstone> phew.
[07:00] <elvstone> ..and sneaks away for some nicotine.
[07:00] <berndl> siretart: do you have any specs online for revu?
[07:00] <jono> ok, we all set?
[07:00] <Smiffeh> Wonder if Ask Mark tomorrow will end up being productive, or just an excuse for people to quiz him on his openSuSE post.
[07:01] <nalioth> probably be a +mz kind of day
[07:01] <jono> I am going to run through some stuff for a bit and then I want to open it up to Q+A for much of the session
[07:01] <jono> hi everyone, my name is Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager at Canonical
[07:01] <jono> a lot of people get pretty confused about what exactly my job is here to do
[07:01] <siretart> berndl: well, there is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/products/revu/+spec/revu. But apart from that, I'm not aware of other specs. Feel free to submit some though.
[07:02] <jono> my main role is to help keep the wheels in the community rolling, help optimise how the community works, develop better ways of working, and be a point of contact for the community
[07:02] <gummibaerchen> what utc time is now? here it's 6o'clock
[07:02] <berndl> siretart: thanks a lot. i'll read through that...
[07:02] <juliux> gummibaerchen, date -u
[07:02] <jono> although I am employed by Canonical, I am ultimately judged by the community itself
[07:03] <jono> as an example, when I started, even though I went through four interviews over a month, I still needed to apply for ubuntu membership
[07:03] <jono> working for canonical does secure me shortcuts or anything like that, the community is the judge
[07:03] <jono> this is quite deliberate, the community is central to ubuntu and central to canonical, and we have built an incredible community together
[07:04] <jono> the fact we have 332 people in here is testement to what our community is capable of doing
[07:04] <jono> every community needs rules and governance that determines how it works
[07:04] <jono> the ubuntu community is no different
 QUESTION: (Feel free to let questions queue up until you're ready): What do you mean by "community"? Anyone who uses Ubuntu, or just those who develop it?
[07:05] <jono> I am determining community as everyone in the ubuntu ecosystem - developers, users and anyone else
[07:05] <jono> so, we have some community structures, and right in the middle is the Code of Conduct
[07:06] <jono> this document species basic standards of practice that most decent people have innately, but it sets a standard for us
[07:06] <jono> although it is just words on a wiki page, the CoC has become a powerful document and a cornerstone of our community and one that is not used to judge people, but to set levels of how we work together
[07:06] <jono> in addition to that we have the Community Council
[07:07] <jono> the Community Council (CC) is a board of nominated contributors who decde on how the community is governed
[07:07] <jono> they do NOT have to be canonical people
[07:07] <jono> in fact, mako, who is on the board is not a canonical employee
[07:07] <jono> the CC make decisions on aspects of governance in the community
[07:08] <jono> as an example, recently there has been discussion of a Leadership Code of Conduct which outlines core standards of leadership
[07:08] <jono> that document would be accepted or denied by the CC
[07:08] <jono> we have also talked about sub-councils known as team councilc
[07:08] <jono> councils
[07:09] <jono> so, as an example, the forums would have their own council - they are a large sub-community inside ubuntu, and could do with a council to decide on issues in their domain
[07:09] <jono> another thing the CC decide on is ubuntu membership
[07:09] <jono> to be an acknowledged member of the ubuntu project, we ask that contributors go before the CC to apply for membership
[07:10] <jono> the CC then decide if that person is suitable to known as a member
[07:10] <jono> more on this in the becoming an ubuntu member session later in the week
[07:10] <jono> now, our community is hugely diverse
[07:11] <jono> we have lots of different areas in which people can get involved such as art, documentation, development, packaging etc, and we actively encourage participation in these areas
[07:11] <jono> we are keen that the ubuntu community does not suffer the same misinterpreation that other communities suffer - that only technical people can be a part of it
[07:12] <jono> each of our community efforts is broken into different teams, and each team is generally expected to have a mailing list, IRC channel, wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com and maybe a forum
[07:12] <mattl> jono: what area could someone who is new to free software and new to GNU/Linux especially get involved with?
[07:12] <jono> I think people need to figure out what their skills are and decide how they can apply them
[07:13] <jono> so, if someone is a good artist, the art team would be a good choice, good communicators could join the doc or marketing teams
 QUESTION: What does beeing a member of the Ubuntu Project entail? What would my responsabilities be towards the Project? What makes this different from just beeing a user and contributor to the Ubuntu Project?
[07:13] <mattl> is there a task list, as such? a list of opportunities?
[07:13] <mako> mattl: there are more than one
[07:13] <mako> Margaret wants to hack on the kernel that ships with Ubuntu, and she has already made a few patches, but she has some questions about the format. She needs to get in touch with the kernel maintainers, and she goes to the Participate page to find the relevant contact info, there is none, and she ends up sending the unfinished patches to the ubuntu-devel list instead.
[07:13] <jono> mattl, more on that in a bit ;)
[07:13] <mako> sorry
[07:13] <mako> paste error
[07:13] <mako> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[07:13] <mako> that is the canonical(!) list
[07:14] <mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[07:14] <jono> elvstone, being an ubuntu means that you have performed a sustained and substantial contribution to the project
[07:14] <mako> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingUbuntu have other ideas
[07:14] <elvstone> jono: ack.
[07:14] <jono> elvstone, we use ubuntu membership as a method of identifying which people are good strong contributors in the project
[07:14] <mako> mattl: this is the plan to merge these together: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImprovingParticipatePage
[07:14] <jono> it is a useful yardstick for seperating out solid performers from people who just get a kick out of shouting on mailing lists
[07:14] <mako> which, funnily enough might be a good way to contribute :)
[07:15] <elvstone> jono: i see :)
 QUESTION: How has being employed by Canonical changed your ability to contribute to the Project?
[07:16] <jono> Yawner, not a huge amount - I am not going to deny that being employed by canonical means some people have more faith in you, because you have been through a pretty solid vetting process - but being employed does not buy any more rights with the community
[07:16] <Yawner> aha ok, thanks
[07:16] <jono> I fundamentally needed to prove my worth to the community, but the community has been very open to my employment
[07:17] <ivoks> hi akk
[07:17] <ivoks> err all
[07:17] <mattl> jono: the community loves you.
 QUESTION: Are there plans to make community involvement even easier?  Perhaps a GUI-based application that would gather information from launchpad that would integrate and help people get started with ease?
[07:17] <jono> mattl, :P
[07:17] <jono> leetcharmer, I have *lots* of plans
[07:17] <mattl> i was being sincere!
[07:17] <jono> about this very issue
[07:17] <jono> mattl, :)
[07:18] <leetcharmer> huzzah \0/
[07:18] <leetcharmer> tell me :D
[07:18] <jono> one of the problems with free software communities is that the process of involvement follows this approx path:
[07:18] <jono> 1. someone decides they like free software and they want to help
[07:18] <jono> 2. the person looks at a list of possible teams and ways of contributing and tries to match their skills with a team
[07:18] <jono> 3. they join the tea,m
[07:18] <jono> now, at point (3) things can get shaky
[07:18] <mattl> jono: i often have pockets of random spare time where i'm sitting with a laptop waiting for a train or a plane or something. be nice if i could use that time to do a microtask that would be useful to the community.
[07:19] <jono> in most scenarios joining a team involves being thrown in a deep end - a contribution to the team requires a fairly large investment of time and energy
[07:19] <jono> I am interested in lessening this investment and getting a win for the contributor sooner rather than later
[07:20] <jono> one plan is to have the concept of "bite size tasks" - a number of tasks for a team that are simple, trivial things to do, but offer a great first step into that team
[07:20] <leetcharmer> That sounds exciting! How can this be made possible? How do you lessen the required amount of time?
[07:20] <leetcharmer> oh! lawl, roite!
[07:20] <jono> I discussed this at the UDS and Allhands, and I am talking with some of the teams to do this in a consistant way, using tags in launchpad
[07:20] <dsas> jono: Akin to the gnome-love bugs gnome use?
[07:20] <jono> the key thing is that bitesize tasks have plenty of feedback
[07:20] <jono> dsas, similar sort of thing
[07:21] <Arby> any estimate when this will happen?
[07:21] <jono> we trialled this technique with the Jokosher community and it was very successfull
[07:21] <jono> Arby, I am hoping we can get something sorted over the next few months
[07:21] <leetcharmer> excellent!
[07:21] <jono> I am also looking into other areas such as standarding documentation and providing better optimised ways of working
[07:22] <finalbeta> I like the tasks idea, would be great for independent coders such as myself to help out when the have some time.
[07:22] <leetcharmer> So, step one is to figure a way to get bite-sized tasks ... what about the actual user experience though?  Making it user friendly enough that novices to even computers could start, right away?
[07:22] <jono> I trialled some of my ideas with the LoCo team, and it seemed to work pretty well - developing consistancy, documentation, improving team relations etc
[07:22] <jono> leetcharmer, the actual user experience is where good feedback from the team needs to come in
[07:23] <jono> it is difficult to write rules to dictate how communities work - it is instead about best practice and learning from our peers
[07:23] <mattl> jono: can you give an example of a task?
[07:23] <jono> mattl, as an example, it may be a packaging bug
[07:23] <dsas> jono: There was an effort within the desktop team to manage that, with the more experienced members tagging things with  the 'ubuntulove' and others picking up on the tasks.
[07:23] <jono> dsas, exactly, we need a consistant project way of doing this
[07:24] <jono> so yeah, expect more on this soon =P
[07:24] <leetcharmer> Example: let's say I have no development computer skills what-so-ever, except for using them and good writing skills -- I'd like to write documentation ... can I click a program, pick a category I'd like to help out -> documentation, pop in some tags and get started and upload?
[07:24] <leetcharmer> That would be nice :D
[07:24] <jono> other projects include mentoring (trialled with a LoCo pilot), documenting best practice, events and more
[07:24] <jono> leetcharmer, thats a good idea, but further down the line
[07:24] <jono> I don;t think the issue here is an interface issue, it is a process issue
 QUESTION: jono: you're Community Manager only for Ubuntu or general for all *buntu Distros too? (like kubuntu)
[07:25] <mattl> task based documentation is pretty useful. any way a user could make documentation by simply using the program? ie. it records the menu clicks to a file and lets them write some text around what they just did?
[07:25] <jono> emonkey-p, althougn my job title is Ubuntu Community Manager, I am here to help all aspects of the community where I can, and I have worked with Kubuntu, Launchpad, Ubuntu, Edubuntu and various others
 Q: jono: are you working with loco teams? does your are include them? how? 'thnx
[07:26] <jono> nmsa, when I joined, I identified loco teams as a key part of the community
[07:26] <jono> I have spent quite a lot of time working with locos
[07:26] <pepsiman> leetcharmer: ubuntu docs are going to be maintained in the wiki
[07:26] <jono> y'know, its interesting, when I started there were lots of locos, but noone talked to each other
[07:26] <jono> each team was its own little independent unit
[07:27] <jono> I wanted to first get people talking to each other - we are a community and our biggest strength is how we communicate and learn from each other
[07:27] <jono> so I revived loco-contacts and encouraged people to talk to each other
[07:27] <leetcharmer> pepsiman, then I would like to request a program that reads from the wiki and would let you write from an interface, to streamline things easier rather than through web
[07:27] <jono> I also encouraged teams to share their experience, stories and other tips to figure out how to best run the teams
[07:28] <LaserJock> pepsiman: that's not entirely correct, but there is a lot of documentation on the wiki
[07:28] <jono> another issue was the sparse and badly organised documentation, so I tidied up the wiki, added a consistant menu bar, created a knowledge base, encouraged teams to contribute docs and formed regular meetings
[07:28] <jono> finally, I worked to help improve the process of how loco teams are approved
[07:29] <jono> in the ubuntu project there are two types of team - new and approved - approved teams are the equivilent of ubuntu members, but for teams - teams that we know work well
[07:29] <jono> and recently I have been working on some ideas to unify loco resources in launchpad
[07:29] <jono> one of the problems we have with teams right now is that teams are spending too much time messing around with setting up websites, planets and user maps, and not spending their time teambuilding
[07:30] <jono> I want to reduce this resource based time, make things easier to set up, and get teams to concentrate on *making great teams*
[07:30] <jono> y'know, we have loco teams in nearly every single country in the world
[07:30] <Circus-Killer> thats one thing our loco team is strugglinh with
[07:30] <jono> and on the loco mailing lists we have *over* 10,000 subscribers
[07:30] <jono> we have an incredible backbone here, and I am keen to see it get better
[07:30] <tonyyarusso> jono: Does that mean a unified, available framework for things like websites, planets, and maps that teams can just plug stuff into a template for?
[07:30] <jono> Circus-Killer, ping me later and we can discuss it
[07:31] <mattl> jono: how useful is a loco team for a large country? wouldn't a city based or region based loco be better?
[07:31] <jono> tonyyarusso, the idea is that a planet, website, user map etc should just be able to be "flipped on" - with a consistant look and feel - I would like to see people contentrate on "content" and not infrastructure
[07:31] <jono> mattl, this is an issue
[07:32] <jono> for some countries we divide it
[07:32] <jono> for the USA, loco teams are at a state level
[07:32] <mattl> at what point does a Loco be more like a GLUG?
[07:32] <jono> but for some places it is a country level
[07:32] <SimonAnibal> jono, what do you mean by "team building"?
[07:32] <tonyyarusso> jono: But what is being done to make that the case?  Do we have something in place for new locos to click the "turn on" button?
[07:33] <jono> mattl, they have different purposes in many ways - lugs are often places where people (a) meet up (b) get support and (c) talk about a range of issues - locos are primarily advocacy and translations vehicles for the ubuntu community
[07:33] <mattl> do you see a loco as a group of people who go to LUGs and spread the ubuntu love?
[07:33] <jono> SimonAnibal, the real value in a team is how people work together, organise themselves and get stuff done - I want to see more of that and less debate about whether to use drupal or plone :P
[07:34] <mattl> heh.
[07:34] <jono> tonyyarusso, there was a spec at the UDS about this, and some additions to launchpad are being discussed
[07:34] <mattl> phpnuke, surely?
[07:34] <jono> mattl, can you post questions in -caht
[07:34] <jono> -chat
 QUESTION: is there a plan to have something like the gnome foundation that leads the project?
[07:35] <jono> juliux, we do have the ubuntu foundation, but is primarily a fund which would kick in if canonical or mark was to go away
[07:35] <jono> right now there seems little need for foundation in my own view
[07:35] <juliux> jono, i mean from the community side
[07:35] <jono> I think we want to get away from making more and more governance infrastructure and spend more time *doing stuff*
[07:36] <jono> juliux, the community council is the governance infrastructure there
 QUESTION: How do we grow a rocking beard like yours?
[07:36] <jono> Ng, its tough, but it takes down, shampoo and condition every day
 Q: jono: again, sorry, are you working with loco teams? does your area include them? how? 'thnx
[07:36] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: but don't you see a practical application for approved teams to have planets? it seems having a unified point of communication (that maybe isn't IRC) is a useful thing.
[07:36] <jono> I do indeed, I help the UK team
[07:37] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, exactly - I am keen to get more perks for approved teams
[07:37] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: good to hear, can you talk briefly on mailing lists in general and their use?
[07:37] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, we can rely on those teams, and there has been discussion about sending out event kits to them, using them for more formal events, providing these teams with additional help and we also send edgy cds to approved teams
[07:38] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, what do you mean about lists?
 Q: Who decide who leads the LoCo Teams?
[07:38] <jono> gummibaerchen,  it varies - not all teams need leaders
[07:38] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: for example, mailing list being used for support requests, pro/cons of having a mailing list
[07:39] <jono> usually the person who founds the team often leads it, some teams have elections and some have informal methods of voting people in
[07:39] <gummibaerchen> jono: But I mean the leader in Launchpad for example.
[07:39] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, mailing lists are essential for all teams, but I always recommend that with a new team to stick with a single list
[07:39] <gummibaerchen> Who gave them their rights?
[07:39] <Admiral_Chicago> gummibaerchen: for example, Chicago LoCo does not have a leader, we decided we don't need one. we have a main contact (nixternal) but he isn't an established leader
[07:39] <jono> gummibaerchen, eh?
[07:40] <jono> Admiral_Chicago, as an example, when people set up discussion forums, a lot of people add 10 sub-forums
[07:40] <LaserJock> gummibaerchen: when somebody creates a team in Launchpad they are the owner
[07:40] <jono> and there is a temptation for people to split out across lots of lists
[07:40] <popey> wik/win 44
[07:40] <Smiffeh> jono: as community manager what sort of relationship do you have with the marketing team?
[07:40] <popey> eek
[07:40] <popey> sorry
[07:40] <jono> I always recommend that communication is kept to single list or forum - it helps everyone see each other
[07:41] <jono> Smiffeh, I am beginning to work with the marketing team and had a discussion with corey last night about it
[07:41] <jono> I am also developing processes to improve how the canonical marketing team and the community marketing team works together
[07:41] <Smiffeh> and what conclusions are you reaching about the direction they should take?
[07:41] <Admiral_Chicago> ah i see, speaking as a spam killer, i know the mailing lists get spam often, I usually go in once a day and approve / deny the appropriate emails, i see this as a con to having mailing list
[07:41] <Admiral_Chicago> they have a certain level of maintainanc
[07:42] <jono> Smiffeh, I have views on the marketing team - I think we need to use the marketing team as a central to push stuff out of the community  - right now the marketing team does to much inter-ubuntu-community marketing - I would like to see other teams (such as loco teams) feed the marketing team with content and then the expertise of the marketing team can push and promote that information
 QUESTION: What role do you play in the communities of the Ubuntu sister projects like Xubuntu or Kubuntu? Do you have any plans/goals for these projects?
[07:43] <jono> somerville32, I covered this a bit earlier, I am here to help with their community building in the same way I do for ubuntu - my door is always open to people who need help
[07:43] <somerville32> :)
 QUESTION: Don't you think Ubuntu community is somewhat careless? I mean posting bug reports and feature request in many other places like forums instead of Launchpad; grumbling about some lack in Ubuntu on personal blogs, instead of writing clear specification and so on...
[07:44] <jono> fafek2, sure, there is lots of misguided work, but that is not solvable with a quick fix - it relies on good solid examples being set by key community figures, and good processes
[07:44] <jono> I think we can improve things in many areas by developing these processes
[07:44] <jono> let me be 100% clear here with my intentions
[07:44] <jono> I want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action
[07:45] <jono> we have all the right ingredients, we have all the potential, we just need to fix some things to improve our community
[07:45] <jono> this is not about me telling people what to do, but about me coming up with ideas and suggestions that do not disrupt workflow but make things better
[07:45] <fafek2> Maybe Ubuntu Forums moderators could be more determined?
[07:46] <jono> right now, I am going after low-hanging fruit - easy wins that will reap a great return on community productivity
[07:46] <jono> fafek2, thats a seperate issue
 QUESTION: Whats the best way to get in contact with you?
[07:46] <jono> well, I live on IRC during the days (around 8.30am - 6pm UTC) and I can also be gotten in touch at jono AT ubuntu DOT com
[07:47] <jono> I also blog a lot at jonobacon.org
[07:47] <Smiffeh> jono: do you feel marketing should be working to attract a non-technical audience to Ubuntu to try and begin to dispel the "linux is not suitable for the desktop" myth
[07:47] <l> awesome!!
[07:47] <jono> Smiffeh, yes indeed
[07:47] <tsmithe> Smiffeh, arent they already?
[07:48] <bhale> questions in -chat guys
[07:48] <jono> Smiffeh, marketing is a multi-faceted approach - we need to approach different demographics with a consistant message - education, non-techical users, developers, charities - they are all ripe pickings :)
 QUESTION: What mechanisms/oversight do you feel may be needed to avoid people sitting around deciding to be "the peoples front of judea" or " the judean peoples front ", navel gazing in other words.
[07:48] <jono> LoudMouthMan, whingers will always whinge
[07:48] <jono> personally, I am not interested in talking to whingers
[07:48] <Smiffeh> From what i have seen so far they seem to be promoting the distro's activities in channels that appeal more to the technical usership.
[07:49] <jono> I am not interested in providing people with blog fodder
[07:49] <bhale> Smiffeh: if you think other channels need to be targetted you could be the newest member of the marketing team
[07:49] <jono> I am interesting in making our community have a standard of "can do" - I personally can't stand people who do nothing but complain, bemoan and otherwise feedback over things they can actually change
[07:50] <jono> this entire free software landscape is mouldable, changable and has the ability to be bettered in every way
[07:50] <jono> this is why I always try to encourage people to do stuff, then discuss
[07:50] <jono> too many contributors start out by setting up a mailing list, svn server, website and such and then spend six months discussing thing they will ultimately never do
[07:50] <jono> I always say "do it, and then discuss it"
[07:51] <LaserJock> \o/
[07:51] <jono> we need to get into a habit of making stuff happen
[07:51] <jono> gummibaerchen> QUESTION: Is it possible that gives up it's Debian Base?
[07:51] <jono> gummibaerchen,  what does?
[07:51] <MacSlow> jono, pretty good stance there!
[07:51] <jono> ok lots of questions, not enough time
[07:51] <jono> gonna pick and choose what has not been covered
[07:51] <MacSlow> jono, I fully agree with this attitude
 QUESTION: Why not merge the Loco's and LUG's so that a Loco is basically a "department" inside the local LUG?  Just seems like more cross-traffic between the two that way.
[07:52] <jono> I don't think it works that way - the two are incompatible at level - they are different types of groups that should intead work together to achieve common goals
 QUESTION: One issue the marketing team has atm is that Canonical wants to be the only one writing press releases, but isn't doing any for the non-tech community.  Does your interfacing w/Canonical and that team include dealing with things like that?
[07:54] <jono> tonyyarusso, indeed - as part of my Canonical/Community work I am trying to improve relations so we can work together on things like this - I am booking meetings with the business development team at canonical to improve on these issues
 QUESTION:  If you want the Ubuntu community to be the finest example of free software community in action (and it's something I would love to see happen!) - how do we begin to expel proprietary software from Ubuntu so it can live up to that?
[07:54] <tonyyarusso> jono: awesome.  Looking forward to results of those.
[07:56] <jono> mattl, speaking personally, I am not interested in taking away choice from the user - I want to help to provide a solid free software Operating System, but I am also open to the fact that people may choose to run proprietary software on it - that it their choice - personally I don't feel freedom includes the right to remove choice - but I do believe we need to make Ubuntu a solid free software base in which people can use it fo
[07:56] <jono> r what they like - this is a big issue, and one I have a blog post lined up for next week
[07:56] <_ubu> jono you can't expell propriety software
[07:56] <sabdfl> can I chip in?
[07:56] <jono> sabdfl, sure
[07:56] <sabdfl> mattl: Ubuntu has never been free-software-only, top to bottom
[07:56] <_ubu> unless you you come up withan alternative to flash, win32 codecs and the lot...
[07:57] <sabdfl> we have since the beginning included some proprietary drivers, for example, for wifi
[07:57] <sabdfl> it has, I think, always been possible to install Ubuntu without those pieces
[07:57] <sabdfl> they are in a specific place in the distro, called "restricted", so they are easy to identify and purge
[07:57] <sabdfl> and distros like gNewSense are basically ubuntu without those pieces
[07:57] <leetcharmer> alternatively -- there is now also gnuSense which ... man, he's one step ahead of me.
[07:58] <jono> right
[07:58] <jono> well I think our time is up
[07:58] <sabdfl> in addition, we have also made packages of proprietary software available, just not accessible by default
[07:58] <mattl> we can't tell people to not install things... however, we can not distribute them.
[07:58] <mattl> if people want Flash, Win32Codecs or Opera, they will get it.
[07:58] <jono> thanks for the excellent questions, I wish I could have got through more
[07:58] <somerville32> Thanks Jono! :)
[07:58] <mattl> but I think Ubuntu could set the bar by saying they won't distribute them.
[07:58] <juliux> thanks jono
[07:58] <sabdfl> mattl: my point is that this has always been the case - at our very first face to face meeting we decided to allow firmware, and binary drivers, just not proprietary apps
[07:59] <jono> I think I will open up the session on wednesday at 5pm UTC with Q+A so do come back then :)
[07:59] <somerville32> Jono: If you ever need a hand, I'm always happy to help with stuff! :)
[07:59] <leetcharmer> it's cool .. thanks jono bacon :D I look forward to Jokosher!
[07:59] <jono> oops 6pm rather
[07:59] <emonkey-p> jono, thx for this talk, it was a pleasure and I'm sure we'll talk soon about several things :)
[07:59] <Joe_CoT> even if you wanted a completely free Ubuntu, shipping it without proprietary software alienates people. it causes wifi cards not to work, video cards to be unsupported, etc. you can't install the binary wifi driver if you have no internet ;-/
[07:59] <jono> thanks folks, take care!
[07:59] <sabdfl> our goal is to get free software as widely used and tested and loved as possible
[07:59] <sabdfl> and we do compromise in order to get it installed and fully using the hardware
[07:59] <_ubu> I agree with Joe_cot
[08:00] <sabdfl> gNewSense takes a strong line, try that if it's what you want
[08:00] <sabdfl> Debian says no to binary drivers but yes to firmware, which IMO is the same thing
[08:00] <mattl> sabdfl: i think that compromise is an unfortunate one, and i feel the message from Ubuntu is a confusing one.
[08:00] <mattl> sabdfl: agreed that firmwares and drivers are the same.
[08:00] <sabdfl> mattl: noted
[08:00] <sabdfl> thanks jono
[08:01] <jono> sabdfl, np, thanks for your comments too
[08:01] <MacSlow> jono, tomorrow your session on "how to become a member" starts at 15:00 GMT ?!
[08:01] <mattl> sabdfl: when you say If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky encumbrances and undisclosed balance sheet liabilities, then please do join us. - i think that's a great statement, but i don't think it's true. if there are binary blobs and binary drivers by default?
[08:01] <somerville32> Can I ask one last quick question, Jono?
[08:01] <leetcharmer> sabdfl, If I wanted to become an entrepreneur, resulting in helping out many people -- what type of work would I do?
[08:02] <jono> somerville32, /msg me
[08:02] <sabdfl> mattl: yes, its true that ubuntu is not without controversy, i was not suggesting ubuntu is perfect
[08:02] <jordi> next in the classroom is Rosetta!
[08:02] <jono> MacSlow, yep
[08:02] <sabdfl> but i think our approach is clear, is well known, and does not create very dangerous situations for other developers, which is what i am objecting to in the novell-msft pact
[08:02] <jono> jordi, woo!
[08:02] <sabdfl> hey jordi!
[08:03] <jordi> hmm, seems I can't change the topic
[08:03] <jordi> too bad
[08:03] <tonyyarusso> jordi: Tell me what you'd like in /msg and it's yours.
[08:03] <jordi> The session is Translations with Rosetta :)
[08:04] <givre> sabdfl: i think that make an advance option in the installer to disable restricted repo https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022596.html , just like suggested collin watson should make everybody happy. Just my 2 cents
[08:04] <dneary> jordi: I'm here for you :)
[08:04] <jordi> Ok, so for those who don't know me, I'm Jordi Mallach, and I've been involved with the Rosetta team trying to be the link between the development team and the Ubuntu translators and rosetta users
[08:05] <jordi> tonyyarusso: just "Rosetta" then :)
[08:05] <tonyyarusso> hmm
[08:05] <stalefries_away> or perhaps cut down on the info
[08:06] <jordi> let's get moving
[08:06] <jordi> The Rosetta Translation Portal
[08:06] <jordi> Rosetta is one of the components that make up Launchpad,
[08:06] <jordi> Canonical's service platform.
[08:06] <jordi> Launchpad is made up of five major components: a bug tracker, a
[08:06] <jordi> request tracker, a specification tracker, a "source code"
[08:06] <jordi> supermirror and Rosetta, a web-based translation portal.
[08:06] <jordi> Christian Reis will talk tomorrow about Launchpad in general, so
[08:06] <jordi> let's focus on Rosetta.
[08:06] <jordi> Rosetta's aim is to make translation of Free Software as easy and
[08:06] <jordi> non-technical as it can get. The Rosetta team has been working on
[08:06] <jordi> creating an interface which hides the specifics of the Gettext PO
[08:06] <jordi> file format, which is the standard for translating Free Software,
[08:06] <jordi> thus lowering the barrier so anyone with a reasonable knowledge
[08:06] <jordi> of English can help out with the translations of their favourite
[08:06] <jordi> project into their mother tongue.
[08:07] <jordi> (please say if I'm too fast, I'm worried about lack of time)
[08:07] <jordi> Rosetta is the main translation system of Ubuntu Linux, and is
[08:07] <jordi> the source of all translations which appear in the Ubuntu
[08:07] <jordi> releases, and in the frequently updated langpacks. Rosetta is
[08:07] <jordi> also designed to help program authors getting their applications
[08:07] <jordi> translated.
[08:07] <jordi> A close look on the Gettext PO file format
[08:07] <jordi> [08:07] <jordi> Most of the software in your desktops use a standard translation
[08:07] <jordi> interface called GNU gettext, which is in charge of showing the
[08:07] <jordi> applications in the language the user has chosen. Application
[08:07] <jordi> programmers need to take care of marking all the user-visible
[08:07] <jordi> messages (or strings, as the initiated tend to call them) with a
[08:07] <jordi> special marker which can be extracted to plain text ".po" files.
[08:07] <jordi> We translators use these files to translate the applications.
[08:08] <jordi> Let's look at how a PO file looks. I've put some examples in
[08:08] <jordi> http://pusa.informat.uv.es/~jordi/ubuntu-school/
[08:08] <jordi> Have a look at the ubuntu-school.pot file. A POT file is a "PO
[08:08] <jordi> Template", that is, an empty PO file ready to be translated.
[08:08] <jordi> Looking at the contents of the file, you can see the format is
[08:08] <jordi> pretty straight forward: each original string in English (a
[08:08] <jordi> msgid) has its corresponding translation (msgstr). While simple,
[08:08] <jordi> the po format is quite fragile. One missing quote, and your
[08:08] <jordi> entire application build will fail with a syntax error. There are
[08:08] <jordi> several very popular PO file editors which help the editing
[08:08] <jordi> process: KBabel, PoEdit, GTranslator, Emacs PO-mode...
[08:09] <jordi> Rosetta goes one step further in easing the translation of these
[08:09] <jordi> PO files, using a clean, web-based interface which hides the
[08:09] <jordi> format, presenting only sets of string/translation pairs that you
[08:09] <jordi> can fill up. Once the work is done, it's stored in its database
[08:09] <jordi> where the information can be exported or shared among other
[08:09] <jordi> projects.
[08:09] <jordi> Using Rosetta's Web Interface
[08:10] <jordi> Rosetta is, as hinted before, divided in two main branches: one
[08:10] <jordi> serves to translate the applications of the people who request
[08:10] <jordi> it. For example, the Gobby collaborative editor is being
[08:10] <jordi> translated by Rosetta contributors, after its authors requested
[08:10] <jordi> us to set it up for them in Rosetta. On the other hand, Rosetta
[08:10] <jordi> is the platform from where Ubuntu gets all its translations.
[08:10] <jordi> We'll focus on Ubuntu a bit more now.
[08:10] <jordi> Ubuntu translations revolve around the Ubuntu translation teams,
[08:10] <jordi> which coordinate and produce the translations which get shipped
[08:10] <jordi> with every new version.
[08:10] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators
[08:11] <jordi> Here you'll see a list of teams which belong to the Ubuntu
[08:11] <jordi> translation teams. While Rosetta is open enough to let everyone
[08:11] <jordi> with a Launchpad account contribute, there is need for some
[08:11] <jordi> access control, to protect quality, avoid vandalism, etc. Being
[08:11] <jordi> part of one of the translation teams grants you "write" access to
[08:11] <jordi> every translation for that language in Ubuntu. Still, if you're
[08:11] <jordi> not a member of your language's team, you can still go ahead and
[08:11] <jordi> translate. Your contributions will be also stored in Rosetta's
[08:11] <jordi> database as "suggestions", but won't appear in Ubuntu's language
[08:11] <jordi> packs until a member of the team reviews and validates them.
[08:11] <jordi> Rosetta offers a long list of applications that can be
[08:11] <jordi> translated. Taking the French team as an example,
[08:11] <jordi> 
[08:11] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/fr
[08:12] <jordi> we can have a look at how their translation status is for the
[08:12] <jordi> Ubuntu Edgy release. I like showing the French team because they
[08:12] <jordi> are really an amazing example of completeness.
[08:14] <jordi> woops
[08:14] <jordi> this had to happen today, I new it
[08:14] <jordi> my router just rebooted :O)
[08:14] <ivoks> hehe
[08:14] <jono> :P
[08:14] <jordi> Rosetta presents us a list of applications which are ready to be
[08:14] <jordi> translated to French, and their current translation status. As
[08:14] <jordi> you see, the French have done their homework and there's barely
[08:14] <jordi> no red bars, meaning "untranslated". See the bottom of the
[08:14] <jordi> page for the meaning of the bar colours.
[08:15] <jordi> The list is ordered from most important to less important
[08:15] <jordi> Let's see how we'd translate an application. Close to the top of
[08:16] <jordi> the list is "launchpad-integration". We'll pick this one as it's
[08:16] <jordi> easy and short.
[08:16] <jordi>    https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/launchpad-integration/+pots/launchpad-integration/fr/+translate
[08:17] <jordi> okay, I just started to look at the questions in the chat channel
[08:17] <jordi> I'll try to paste them here now, sorry about that ;)
[08:17] <waod> LOL
[08:17] <jordi> If instead of French you want to have a look at your own
[08:17] <jordi> language's translation, simply replace "/fr" in the URL with the
[08:17] <jordi> corresponding ISO 639 code. You can find the code for your
[08:17] <jordi> language here:
[08:17] <jordi> http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
[08:17] <waod> 14:38 < mogaal> Soy bruto
[08:17] <waod> 14:38 < mogaal> Comprende :(
[08:18] <jordi> In our case, the first string is "The Launchpad helper
[08:18] <jordi> application failed", which is already translated to French as
[08:18] <jordi> "L'assistant Launchpad a chou". Below the accepted translation
[08:18] <jordi> there is a list of alternative translations suggested by other
[08:18] <jordi> people. You can quickly navigate through the translation fields
[08:18] <jordi> using the tab key. Once you have completed all the strings in a
[08:18] <jordi> page, you want to save your work: hit "Save & Continue" at the
[08:18] <jordi> bottom, and if there are more strings to do, Rosetta will then
[08:18] <jordi> show them to you.
[08:19] <jordi> There are other bits that can help the translators while they
[08:19] <jordi> work on a translation: you might want to see what the translators
[08:19] <jordi> to a language similar to yours used in a string that is hard to
[08:19] <jordi> translate, for inspiration. You can get such information using
[08:19] <jordi> the "Make suggestions from" widget at the top of the string list.
[08:19] <jordi> Also, you'll be more interested in seeing the strings that need
[08:19] <jordi> work instead of those which are translated already. You can
[08:19] <jordi> filter the kind of messages you want to see using the "Show"
[08:19] <jordi> widget, where you can select from "all", "unstranslated",
[08:19] <jordi> "translated" and "needs review".
[08:20] <jordi> 20:20 < neophile> QUESTION: Is it possible to search for a string in the translation? That's major drawback when trying to correct translations. Is a search feature planned for rosseta in the near future?
[08:20] <jordi> It's currently not possible to search for a string easily
[08:20] <jordi> it is one of the most requested (and no doubtely most useful) features, and we do plan to add it
[08:21] <jordi> the implementation isn't trivial though, as the database is huge and there are some perdformance issues to solve
[08:21] <jordi> But yes, the team will focus on providing it as soon as possible
[08:22] <jordi> Using Rosetta's import/export interface
[08:22] <jordi> While the web interface has allowed many Ubuntu users help out
[08:22] <jordi> with the translations to their language, there's certainly
[08:22] <jordi> die-hard, old-time translators who will prefer using their own
[08:22] <jordi> tools (obscure emacs modules and weird command line tools!) to
[08:22] <jordi> work on their translations. Or there might be people who cannot
[08:22] <jordi> afford to be online during the whole translating session.
[08:23] <jordi> To help them, Rosetta has an import/export mechanism, which
[08:23] <jordi> allows you to easily upload translations you have worked on
[08:23] <jordi> offline, using your own ways, but you still want to see
[08:23] <jordi> integrated in Rosetta, and download your finalised files so you
[08:23] <jordi> can do whatever you want with them: back them up, send them to
[08:23] <jordi> your team's mailing list, send them to the upstream author so
[08:23] <jordi> they get included in the next release...
[08:24] <jordi> Importing and exporting is easy: to download your work, use the "Download" and "Upload file" links in the boxes at the left side
[08:24] <jordi> When requesting a download, Launchpad will prepare the file for you and will email you the location of the desired export.
[08:25] <jordi> Importing is similar. Just fill in the field with the location path to your file, and rosetta will integrate it in the database
[08:26] <jordi> I translated all night long. What now?
[08:26] <jordi> [08:26] <jordi> Okay, so you've worked on the files you were interested in, and
[08:26] <jordi> Rosetta now has all the info. What happens now?
[08:26] <jordi> Ubuntu will, on a monthly basis, extract all the translations
[08:26] <jordi> from the database and put them in the "language packs" for each
[08:26] <jordi> supported language in the distro, which will automatically hit
[08:26] <jordi> your Ubuntu mirror the 1st Monday of the month. This way, Rosetta
[08:26] <jordi> allows people to keep improving the support for their language
[08:26] <jordi> even after a Ubuntu release has shipped. For example, more than 6
[08:26] <jordi> months after the release of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, there's a group
[08:26] <jordi> working on adding Dzonghka support to Ubuntu, when there was
[08:26] <jordi> close to nothing included in dapper initially.
[08:27] <jordi> I see there's many interesting questions going on, so I propose we go on with Q+A, trying to focus on the classics: Rosetta and upstream relationship, etc.
[08:28] <jordi> 20:24 < bugman> QUESTION: In https://translations.launchpad.net/people/bugman/+translations for example, is possible to implements the view of all string translated for a package and not only the last?
[08:28] <jordi> bugman: it's possible, yes. These are wishlist features, though, and will get a lower priority than say "search a string"
[08:28] <jordi> but the info is in the database, so it's prefectly possible to show the info
[08:29] <jordi> it's important that bugs are filed against rosetta requesting these things
[08:29] <bugman> jordi: ok :-)
[08:29] <jordi> 20:26 < dneary> QUESTION: What's the recommended workflow for updating .po files outside Launchpad for the moment?
[08:29] <jordi> dneary: can you be more specific?
[08:30] <jordi> there's several scenarios: gnome-panel or launchpad-integration, for example
[08:30] <ivoks> jordi: he asks if he could see all his translations in one package
[08:30] <ivoks> just his own
[08:30] <ivoks> or someone elses
[08:30] <jordi> ivoks: bugman?
[08:31] <ivoks> yes
[08:31] <jordi> oh, I see.
[08:31] <dneary>  jordi: It's related to bug #68014
[08:31] <jordi> Well, tha can be done too
[08:31] <ivoks> urgh.. sorry lag :)
[08:31] <bugman> :)
[08:31] <jordi> (please give me full malone urls so I can open fast)
[08:31] <dneary> jordi: It seems like uploading .po files doesn't automatically update translations at the moment (if I understand the problem)
[08:32] <Gwaihir> jordi: https://launchpad.net/bugs/68014
[08:32] <jordi> dneary: right, the import mechanism is restricted right now, while a nasty bug involving reverted translations is tracked down
[08:32] <dneary> Some translations were lost, so on the 1st of November, the upload form was disabled
[08:32] <jordi> for the time being, mailing rosetta@launchpad.net with import requests is the recommended way
[08:32] <dneary> So - what's the reccommended workflow for people working on .po files outside teh tree while that bug is being fixed?
[08:33] <dneary> jordi: OK - thanks :)
[08:33] <jordi> although I hope we'll go back to normal operation rsn -- aiui the bug fixing is making progress
[08:33] <dneary> I was typing rather than reading
[08:33] <dneary> cool
[08:33] <jordi> 20:27 < dand> QUESTION: any packages in Rosetta that sync automatically with upstream? if yes, are they marked somehow in Launchpad and how often do they sync?
[08:33] <jordi> good one: this doesn't happen right now, but is a desired feature
[08:34] <jordi> this would allow minimise the "conflicts" between rosetta and upstream preojects (KDE, GNOME...) translations
[08:35] <jordi> so if some translator has rights to translate both on Ubuntu and GNOME CVS, a translation inserted in Rosetta could be exported to GNOME
[08:35] <jordi> we want this, but it'll won't be here before some time
[08:35] <dand> alright, thanks :)
[08:35] <jordi> 20:27 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is it possible to have a --use-fuzzy implementation for exporting mo files?
[08:36] <jordi> Gwaihir: as far as I know, we don't do this now because Rosetta generates fuzzies using its own knowledge. I guess it'd be easy to add an option to generate files with fuzzies, yes. Is there a bug filed?
[08:37] <jordi> 20:29 < Gwaihir> QUESTION: is there any difference between "fuzzy string" in po and "Need review" in Rosetta?
[08:37] <jordi> I've gone over this as I wanted to keep the text dump simple
[08:37] <jordi> but yeah, needs review can map to fuzzy
[08:37] <jordi> some teams do use it as in the strict "needs review" sense though
[08:38] <jordi> ie, theey translate it, but if they are not sure, they use the mark so others can easily find the unsure strungs
[08:38] <jordi> strings even
[08:38] <ivoks> right, that's common practice
[08:38] <jordi> 20:29 < somerville32> QUESTION: How does a member of a translation team approve suggested translations?
[08:39] <jordi> The current implementation is built on very complex copy and paste technology :)
[08:39] <ivoks> (could we get a checkbox instead?) :)
[08:39] <jordi> we do have plans to have the checkbox :)
[08:40] <pepsiman> jordi: there's a greasemonkey script which helps
[08:40] <jordi> I'm a bit on time pressure I guess, otherwise I'd dig the relevant spec urls
[08:40] <danilos> Gwaihir: another thing to note: currently, both fuzzy and string needing review is implemented using the same mechanism in rosetta; there is, however, a plan to separate these out and put them to their right meanings (i.e. fuzzy == machine-selected "similar" string; needs review == human selected "unsure" string)
[08:40] <bugman> ivoks: i written a spec on this but it was rejected
[08:40] <jordi> danilos, maybe you can find some of the relevant ones so people can read over them
[08:41] <jordi> danilos is one of the main rosetta coders. Woo! :)
[08:41] <jordi> 20:31 < somerville32> QUESTION: If I suggest a translation and then join the translation team later, are all my suggested translations automatically approved?
[08:41] <jordi> somerville32: no, as far as I know. That could be dangerous on some cases, actually
[08:42] <jordi> but it might be a good idea to do it if the string was unstranslated
[08:42] <somerville32> So I have to go and redo all my work? haha
[08:42] <jordi> I can't stress enough that having bug reports for all the requests is really helpful
[08:43] <jordi> 20:32 < dand> QUESTION: any plans so far on opening Rosetta for contributions?
[08:43] <jordi> dand: "opening", I assume you mean opening the source code
[08:43] <dand> yeah
[08:43] <danilos> on dneary's QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
[08:43] <Gwaihir> jordi: for the --use-fuzzy question I've a bug was opened: https://launchpad.net/bugs/70974
[08:43] <danilos> dneary: yes, Rosetta keeps a history of all translation contributions
[08:44] <jordi> There's sabdfl's statement that Launchpad will be freed when the project is ready to do so. We can't give dates or estimations on when that might happen.
[08:44] <jordi> There are people helping out with Launchpad on a NDA basis, though.
[08:44] <jordi> Gwaihir: thanks
[08:44] <dand> jordi: k, thanks
[08:45] <jordi> 20:36 < bugman> QUESTION: It's possibile to hava a Wiki page (or other similar) for see LangPack scheduling?
[08:45] <Gwaihir> jordi: you are welcome!
[08:45] <jordi> bugman: the general rule is "1st Monday of the month". We chose this because it's easy to remember. I'm sure this is written up somewhere though, can't find a pointer irght now
[08:46] <bugman> jordi: ok thanks
[08:46] <danilos> dneary: but no, we don't have the level of details you wonder about (when string has moved from suggestion to approved, etc.)
[08:46] <jordi> there's a Plan to write docs pointing these things clearly
[08:46] <jordi> 20:36 < dneary> QUESTION: Does Rosetta keep a history of translation updates and who made them?
[08:47] <jordi> a feature showing how a string has changed over time has just been rolled onto production, and Rosetta is now gathering this info
[08:47] <jordi> This will be good to help team leaders track bad translators
[08:48] <jordi> 20:40 < neophile> QUESTION: Where someone should translate a package, in head brunch or in the edgy brunch?
[08:48] <dneary> jordi: danilos already answered that - thanks to you both
[08:48] <jordi> neversfelde_: this very much depends on the specific packages
[08:49] <jordi> we have a feature on our queue, which will allow someone translating gnome-panel in edgy "push" that same translation to dapper, feisty, or GNOME CVS HEAD if applicable
[08:50] <jordi> so you just have to translate once
[08:50] <ivoks> that would be awsome
[08:50] <jordi> neversfelde_: of course, if you translate the Panel in GNOME CVS, that translation will automagically percolate to the next ubuntu release
[08:51] <jordi> this gets us to the "working with upstream" chapter
[08:51] <jordi> while rosetta is a great tool to get ubuntu translated verfy easily, it's vital that the translation teams cooperate with their upstream teams
[08:52] <jordi> ie, the French Ubuntu team should be in contact with the French GNOME team, so they use the same guidelines, etc
[08:52] <jordi> or don't duplicate efforts
[08:52] <bugman> yes is the same with itlian team
[08:52] <bugman> * italian
[08:53] <jordi> we've had problems with some teams redoing all the work in Rosetta, which resulted in a completely different set of translations in Ubuntu and other distros.
[08:53] <jordi> The "translation override" feature in rosetta is powerful and useful if used wisely. If it goes out of control, it can cause frictiuons between teams.
[08:54] <jordi> We need to work on that, I believe it's a procedural problem which can be mostly solved by educating new translators which join the ubuntu teams
[08:55] <jordi> there's been quite some talk on this on the rosetta list, and teams like italian or Brazilian have already implemented some measures to work nicely with their upstreams
[08:55] <Amaranth> metacity
[08:55] <bugman> i quit, thanks jordi :-)
[08:55] <Amaranth> beryl-manager
[08:55] <jordi> 20:45 < aleka> QUESTION: If I am eager to help the Ubuntu community, and the only way I can right now if through translation, What Can I do when the admin of a team does not respond to my requests or approve my membership to the team?
[08:55] <jordi> good one!
[08:56] <jordi> aleka: we're seeing this every now and then
[08:56] <jordi> the best and quickest way is to mail us at rosetta@launchpad.net
[08:56] <pepsiman> lots of people apply to teams without telling the team leader their email address
[08:56] <jordi> and we'll mediaate
[08:57] <jordi> ie, we'll try to contact the current leader. If he doesn't respont, we'll transfer leadership to whoever we think deserves it (ie, whoever wants to do the work ;)
[08:57] <jordi> pepsiman: good point. That's bad, and I've suffered that myself.
[08:58] <jordi> danilos: we should think on some way to circumvent this, when a leader can't contact a member because there's no public email address
 QUESTION: We have had some issues with translations where people outside the project translated things badly, and we couldn't easily revert to the correct translation - how can I configure our translation to make sure only approved translation team members can do the translation?
[08:58] <jordi> danilos: want to answer that one?
[08:58] <danilos> dneary: at the moment, members of the translation team should only be those you trust; in other words, anyone who is member of your translation team can approve/modify translations
[08:59] <dneary> And only translation team members can do translations?
[08:59] <dneary> Thanks
[08:59] <jordi> right, we ACK that there's oversized teams right now.
[08:59] <jordi> dneary: if the given project is setup up like that, yes
[08:59] <danilos> dneary: yes; anyone else can post suggestions -- we'll work on improving team layout (and docs), so this is clear to everybody
[09:00] <jordi> 20:51 < tonyyarusso> QUESTION: Does Rosetta have some method for handling dialects?  I'm just getting the ball rolling for a language (oji) that varies widely (esp. for technical terms)
[09:00] <jordi> tonyyarusso: not yet, but both danilos and I are involved with teams which would benefit of dialect support
[09:01] <jordi> We really want to see this happen, but it's not high priority right now
[09:01] <jordi> 20:53 < somerville32> QUESTION: How do you know if a translation is suggested or approved?
[09:01] <tonyyarusso> jordi: What is the best way to approach things for the time being then until it is implemented?
[09:01] <jordi> a approved translation appears in the translation field
[09:01] <jordi> suggestions appear as suggestions beneath it
[09:02] <danilos> jordi: as far as unresponsive team leaders, we can establish regular "checks" with team leaders; but that's something I feel ubuntu l10n coordinator should handle, since it's not a direct rosetta issue
[09:02] <jordi> danilos: ^ want to answer that one?
[09:02] <jordi> yeah, we haven't mentioned the coordinator at all
[09:02] <danilos> jordi: sure
[09:02] <jordi> 20:53 < dneary> QUESTION: Can I export translations in other formats than .po?
[09:03] <jordi> dneary: no, Rosetta currently only groks po files
[09:03] <jordi> although it will soon be able to export firefox and openoffice data via langpacks.
[09:03] <metatecque> QUESTION - is Brandon here yet - isn't the open kubuntu discussion scheduled to start now?
[09:03] <danilos> somerville32: any actual translation is the approved one; suggestions only appear as "suggestions"
[09:03] <somerville32> kk
[09:03] <jordi> but not via the standard export mechanism as far as I know, danilos can correct me
[09:04] <dneary> So I need to do a post-processing move to generate a .ts?
[09:04] <imbrandon> moins all ( sorry i'm really lagging here )
[09:04] <jordi> 20:57 < dneary> QUESTION: What happens in Rosetta when an overridden string gets changed in a later revision of the upstream translation?
[09:04] <danilos> dneary: btw, we're working on adding native support for other formats right now; first to come should be firefox XPIs, OpenOffice GSI's, KDE PO files, but we also have plans for XLIFF and others
[09:04] <jordi> Rosetta has a "tracker" which makes it think it should follow what comes from upstram or not.
[09:05] <imbrandon> jordi: ping me when you wrap it up i'm going to try to fix my lag issue
[09:05] <jordi> In short, if you change a string, forking it to something different, it'll stay forked unless you put the upstram string back again.
[09:06] <dneary> jordi: How do you get to decide?
[09:06] <jordi> We want to implement a filter so it's easy to find these strings and do a "merge with upstream" for them, etc.
[09:06] <dneary> Is there a fuzziness thing that shows you changed over-ridden strings?
[09:06] <jordi> imbrandon: okay
[09:06] <jordi> just kick us out when you're ready
[09:06] <jordi> dneary: no, there's proposals to mark them as such
[09:06] <jordi> hasn't happened yet
[09:07] <jordi> 21:01 < aleka> QUESTION: where can I get help in aquiring fonts that I need for translating (Amharic - ethiopic fonts) that work in Linux. This question emailed to team leader twice and no response..
[09:07] <jordi> aleka: you might want to ask in the ubuntu-devel list
[09:07] <jordi> mark shuttleworth has big interest in getting ubuntu working out of the box for special script like yours
[09:08] <jordi> if there are free fonts, it should be easy.
[09:08] <imbrandon> ok jordi i think i'm fixed up here
[09:08] <danilos> aleka: finding that information is sometimes even hard for the team leader, since it might be scattered all over internet
[09:08] <jordi> just on time, because we're done with the questions
[09:08] <imbrandon> :)
[09:08] <jordi> Thanks everyone, and thanks danilo!
[09:08] <jordi> next, Kubuntu!
[09:09] <ivoks> thank you jordi and danilos
[09:09] <kappa> thanks, jordi and danilos!
[09:09] <danilos> everyone else, feel free to ping us whenever you've got questions :)
[09:09] <ivoks> watch out, ping flood :)
[09:09] <imbrandon> Hello everyone, I'm gonna kinda do this informal like, I have about 15 minutes worth of things to let everyone know about , things I think you might be interested in as new comers then I will let every one do a Q & A session.
[09:09] <imbrandon> All I ask during the Q & A is that you speak one at a time so we can get as much covered in this timeslot as possible.
[09:09] <imbrandon> What is Kubuntu? Kubuntu is the KDE centric sibling to Ubuntu, We have the same Dreams and Goals as Ubuntu , we just go about getting their via a different desktop.
[09:10] <imbrandon> Kubuntu runs ( very well ) almost entirely community driven with very few core developers and at the moment only on canonical paid employee ( Johnathan Riddell )
[09:10] <imbrandon> ( sorry for the lag time foks my connection is a bit slow right now )
[09:10] <imbrandon> bear with me :)
[09:10] <imbrandon> Looking forward to Feisty we have some exsciting things going on, a lot of KDE4 development is taking place and we're working hard to make it so KDE4 and KDE3 can be
[09:11] <imbrandon> installed side by side so developers can work hard to port their app to KDE4 without worrying about compiling all of KDE just to work on their own app. ( of course the option to compile core KDE4 is still their too :P )
[09:11] <imbrandon> Also we have a lot of other new exciting things like plans to test and include KOffice 2 in feisty+1 and have ( and try to continue to make ) Useability improvements as suggested by the KDE Useability team that in turn gets absorbed upstream.
[09:12] <imbrandon> And also a lot of little things that just make life easier , such as automatic installation of codecs when one tries to play say an MP3 in Amarok and such.
[09:12] <imbrandon> and lots of other great things all packed into a single CD
[09:14] <imbrandon> are their any areas that you aparticularly interested in ?the community , the development ?
[09:14] <imbrandon> ( man my lag is not good atm )
[09:15] <Jucato> both, but more probably in development
[09:15] <imbrandon> tsmithe: well there are a few things
[09:15] <imbrandon> 1 we share the same ideas as ubuntu in that we strive to make everything as easy as possible but still have a free distrobution
[09:15] <imbrandon> and also
[09:15] <tsmithe> 1 is a given ;)
[09:16] <imbrandon> right :) and also
[09:16] <Lure> tsmithe: lots of Kubuntu PyQt3 stuff needs porting to PyQt4 as preparation for KDE4 - if you know python, that may be nice task
[09:16] <imbrandon> we work very closely with upstream projects to try alot of useability features and default setting so  everything
[09:17] <imbrandon> works very smootly togather as a unified desktop NOT the best of bread , but more about intergration
[09:17] <imbrandon> and the ploiferation of KDE based applications
[09:17] <imbrandon> you will notice things like FireFox isnt installed but we work on konqueror and such
[09:18] <robotgeek> does kubuntu have a task list, varying by complexity, like KDE junior jobs, etc?
[09:19] <imbrandon> robotgeek: not at the moment but that is one of the things we worked on doing at UDS
[09:19] <imbrandon> it will be a reality in the next few weeks
[09:19] <cbx33> imbrandon, what of utilities created for the gnome environment....are people availbale to help with porting them to KDE - or is that not a desired approach?
[09:19] <Lynoure> Is there a typo in the topic or is there really activity here only two hours a day?
[09:19] <metatecque> Question: Does kubuntu have plans to develop for the mobile environment?
[09:19] <Lynoure> "between 3pm and 5pm UTC"
[09:20] <imbrandon> cbx33: that is a very desired approach, infact there are alot of opertunities for pykde devel in kubuntu at the moment ... the installer is the most noticeable but
[09:20] <robotgeek> hmm, 3 pm to 9 pm, maybe Lynoure (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek)
[09:20] <Lure> metatecque: is "mobile environment" like laptop or you talking about ubuntu on gadgets?
[09:20] <metatecque> more in the line of gadgets - but as powerful as a laptop
[09:20] <cbx33> imbrandon, excellent
[09:20] <imbrandon> cbx33: theree is a whole list i can provideon the wiki after the meeting
[09:21] <cbx33> fantastic
[09:21] <cbx33> maybe I'll port gisiomount to kde native ;)
[09:21] <imbrandon> metatecque: what mobile env? laptops ort phones/pda?
 QUESTION: I noticed now in Kubuntu, in KDE Control Center -> System Administration -> Windows Applications it configures WINE easily with one click following Wine installation. Can we expect any additional such quick and easy tools to be included in KDE Control Center in the future?
[09:22] <metatecque> phones / pda / "sony mylo" type devices
[09:22] <imbrandon> yes you can look for ALOT , not just in the control center but all accross kubuntu
[09:22] <imbrandon> install on demand is a major thing we're tweaking for feisty
[09:22] <cbx33> is kubuntu hoping to include compiz/beryl for feisty?
[09:22] <Lure> lotusleaf: grub config was discussed for feisty, not sure of other plans
[09:23] <mocker> Is the new start menu that SuSE made going to be ported over?
[09:23] <imbrandon> cbx33: not for feisty no, it will be an easy to install feature but not on by default in kubuntu
[09:23] <cbx33> ok
[09:23] <imbrandon> mocker: it already is in feisty as an optional package
[09:24] <imbrandon> mocker: but likely wont be default
 kde4 will arrive with feisty or later?
[09:24] <imbrandon> dtamas: our kde4 plans are to release it as the main desktop with feisty+1 but feisty will have it avaible for installation from the repo with just a few clicks
[09:25] <metatecque> see my comment on mark shuttleworth's blog - http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/68#comment-13814
[09:25] <Lure> dtamas: feisty kde4 will be targeted for kde apps developers, feisty+1 is for users
[09:25] <imbrandon> metatecque: well it would be nice but kde upstream dosent support those devices
 QUESTION: will there be at any stage, the release of a DVD EDITION, containing Ubuntu and all its derivatives with the option to choose either gnome, kde or xfce on install?
[09:25] <dtamas> ok, thanks
 QUESTION: I am asking about the release of a dvd that you are able to install either Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu off and also the ability to choose either Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu for a live session. Is this likely to happen, will there be an official release
[09:26] <metatecque> what about developing for a device, even if we have to port it downstream?
[09:26] <imbrandon> mahtavamatt: that has not been proposed to my knolage and not in the works , but that dosent mean it wont happen sometime
[09:26] <mahtavamatt> okay, thanks
 QUESTION: KDE development cycle, doesn't sync with Ubuntu's (which sync's with GNOME). How does this affect Kubuntu? weren't there talks/proposals about separting Ubuntu's and Kubuntu's releases?
[09:27] <imbrandon> metatecque: its really a question of man power, i see no problem with that but we need the interested developers to do the port of QT etc to make that viable
[09:27] <mahtavamatt> for a system admins  like myslef it would be very handy
[09:28] <Lure> Jucato: kde does not have fixed life cycle (yet), so it is hard to plan release on it - current approach is to pick what is current at ubuntu release time.
[09:28] <imbrandon> Jucato: there were talks at one time about splitting the kubuntu releases to sync them with KDE more closely but I dont think that will happen untill AFTER the next LTS
[09:28] <Lure> Jucato: this may change if kde moves to more predictable release cycles
[09:28] <imbrandon> ( e.g when KDE4 makes a fixed cycle )
[09:28] <imbrandon> Lure: exactly
[09:28] <Jucato> ah
 QUESTION why did the team adopt KDE 4 so early (feisty), this "in between version time" could have been used to perfect stuff such as printing, boot screen, session switching etc...
[09:29] <imbrandon> vyoman: very much work is stiull going into kde3 and kde3 will still be the default desktop, kde4 will only be there as an option for developers , so they can start porting their apps early
[09:30] <imbrandon> vyoman: kde4 wont be the derfault desktop in kubuntu for atleaste 1 more year
[09:31] <imbrandon> also
[09:31] <imbrandon> we strive to keep everything on one install CD so with that in mind things like kde3 and kde4 wont both be default
[09:32] <imbrandon> and things like KOffice by default ( to promote both kde apps and save space and memopry ) are looked at but defered to later releases
[09:33] <imbrandon> ( again sorry for my lag in typing my ssh connection is kinda slow )
[09:33] <imbrandon> with that said , what ar some of the things you all are looking for in the next release? ( please post to -chat )
[09:34] <imbrandon> do you feel the entry to help with kubuntu has worked so far? is there anything we can do to improve that ?
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to improve Kubuntu performance?
[09:35] <imbrandon> somerville32: yea , infact just before this class i was looking at ways to opti the loading of files on the live cd
[09:36] <imbrandon> and many other various improvemnts go into the loading every chance we get
[09:36] <Lure> vyoman> QUESTION is the team aware of the troubles caused by upgrading from dapper to edgy and if so have any lessons been learned?
[09:36] <|harry|> On the Ubuntu podcast, one of the hosts made a comment about the performance of SUSE linux as oppose to Kubuntu. Why is their a difference?
[09:36] <gsuveg> re
[09:37] <popey> there is an ubuntu podcast?
[09:37] <Lure> vyoman: fesity will get update-manager like ubuntu which should cover upgrades
[09:37] <finalbeta> @upgrading question, One of the Feisty specs seems to be directed at solving those problems. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/dist-upgrader-fixes
[09:38] <imbrandon> vyoman: yes we are aware of the issues, that is one reason we work ultra close with the ubuntu developers ( we are alot of the same team ) and also why there is a port of the upgrader tool to kubuntu for feisty
 QUESTION: Why does kubuntu appear to run faster from a live cd than the generic ubuntu?
[09:38] <|harry|> http://ubuntuos.com/podcast/feed.xml
[09:38] <imbrandon> that is not an official ubuntu podcast but yes there is one on ubuntuos.com
[09:39] <imbrandon> ( i also hear rumors there might be one in the future TheFridge
[09:39] <imbrandon> shhh
[09:39] <vyoman> BTW i love kubuntu and like to say thank you guys for all the hard work (don't like to sound rude <s>)
[09:39] <imbrandon> cbx33: that is purely appearance afaik
 QUESTION: Can we expect a frontend for iptables like Firestarter or Guarddog to be installed by default in future versions of Kubuntu without the user having to seek it out themselves?
[09:39] <cbx33> imbrandon, ok
[09:39] <imbrandon> vyoman: none taken:)
[09:40] <fabio_> and a GUI for the nfs mount?
[09:40] <imbrandon> lotusleaf: we have discussed this before at KCC meetings and decided against it, thats not to say it wot be revisited again, come to a meeting and tell us you want ti !
[09:41] <imbrandon> fabio_: yes a GUI for NSF ( and samba ) mounts is in the works for kubuntu system settings
[09:41] <Lure> lotusleaf: firewall decision will probably depend on overall *ubuntu decision - so we may just follow it
[09:41] <imbrandon> its oe of the many pykde apps ready for help :)
[09:41] <fabio_> yes imbrandon but i use ubuntu :p
 QUESTION are there any plans to use (or adapt) the Kickoff menu instead of current K menu?
[09:42] <imbrandon> barsanuphe: it has been discussed but defered untill more testing can be done, but it is in talks
[09:42] <imbrandon> weeather ti will be default or not is still up for grabs
 QUESTION: a lot of KDE users are complaining about how Kubuntu changes KDE too much (Konqueror, System Settings) or removes some things (Kuickshow). What are the developers' comments and reasons for this? How do they go about making such decisions and from where do they base these changes (studies, surveys, comments)?
[09:42] <imbrandon> but it will be avail for an option atleaste
[09:43] <imbrandon> Jucato: well thats depends on how you look at it, here is the process
[09:44] <imbrandon> most kubuntu developers are upstream kde devlopers OR work closely with them, most of the defaults are sugested by ellen from KDE usability or celeste,
[09:44] <imbrandon> ( including system settings )
[09:44] <imbrandon> once they are proven to work out well they are given back to upstream
[09:44] <imbrandon> as far as how
[09:45] <imbrandon> they are decided , that is done for the mostpart at bi-weekly kubuntu meetings
[09:45] <Lure> Jucato: lots of distros test new concepts now with kde3 as these ideas may be used for kde4 as default - suse kickoff is perfect example, kubuntu media:/ fixes may be another one
[09:45] <imbrandon> right
[09:45] <gnomefreak> do we even have a kickoff package?
[09:46] <Jucato> ok... I guess the process isn't really just clear. A common misconception is that Kubuntu developers randomly remove/change things without much notice (even in release notes)
[09:46] <Lure> Jucato: some changes may not be pleaseant to everybody, but you do not know this until they go out in the wild - /.hidden is good example which was backed out for feisty
[09:46] <imbrandon> gnomefreak: yes i uploaded it yesterday ( it my still need approval from archiove admins )
[09:46] <gnomefreak> :)
[09:46] <Lure> Jucato: and yes, this should be better documented
 QUESTION: Qt is supposed to be offering a clear looks theme since recently. Will this only be used for compatibility towards GNOME. Or could this be standard. Because allot of GNOME users could be turned if KDE didn't look like a failed XP style attempt. (last part is my own opinion of course)
[09:47] <imbrandon> Jucato: yes that is a misconception and we'll try to make that more transparent for the feisty cycle
[09:47] <Jucato> that's great news indeed :)
[09:47] <Jucato> thanks!
[09:48] <imbrandon> finalbeta: no kubuntu will keep its own distinct look
[09:48] <Lure> finalbeta: this is only in Qt4, so not possible before feisty+1 (at least for users)
 QUESTION having installed kubuntu on grandads and the milk man's machine, one of the features family guys are missing from windows is prettier and faster session switching, what is the plan?
[09:49] <imbrandon> vyoman: i really dont know the plans for that but i do know there are plans in the works for kde4
[09:49] <imbrandon> to vastly improve that
 QUESTION will kuickshow ever come back?
[09:50] <imbrandon> barsanuphe: anything is possible but gwenview is serving us well
[09:50] <imbrandon> at the moment
[09:50] <Jucato> (but needs kipi-plugins)
[09:50] <Lure> barsanuphe: it was removed due to dependany issue - if this would be resolved upstream, we may include it again
 QUESTION: What's Riddell's favourite drink? :)
[09:51] <fabio_> QUESTION will be implemented some like ubuntu media center like windows media center?
[09:51] <imbrandon> irun brew ?
[09:52] <imbrandon> iron bru !
[09:52] <ivoks> uh, thanks
[09:52] <ajmitch> imbrandon: irn-bru, I think
[09:52] <imbrandon> ajmitch: thanks
[09:52] <tenshu> fabio_: there is a third party project called Ubuntu Center but at this time it is in planning phase
[09:52] <fabio_> tenks
[09:52] <Lure> ivoks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irn_bru
[09:52] <imbrandon> ok guys I'm going to wrap this up, and I promis not to lag out my next session, thanks everyone
[09:53] <imbrandon> i'm gonna hand this over to LaserJock now for package stuff :)
 QUESTION: What is imbrandon's favorite drink ;p ?
[09:53] <tenshu> see ubuntu official forums fabio_ for more infos
[09:53] <nixternal> ;p
[09:53] <imbrandon> MT DEW
[09:53] <Jucato> lol
[09:53] <imbrandon> !! FWT
[09:53] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about FWT - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[09:53] <imbrandon> ok guys, thanks alot, LaserJock good luck
[09:53] <Jucato> thanks imbrandon!
[09:53] <nixternal> thanks imbrandon !
[09:53] <cbx33> thanks imbrandon
[09:54] <ajmitch> good work imbrandon
 QUESTION Is there any chance that kubuntu will have more than one paid dev? (Didn't Mark promise something like this on LinuxTag?)
[09:54] <imbrandon> ( btw the saturday session will be lag freee )
[09:54] <LaserJock> ack, my clock says I have 6 minutes
[09:54] <imbrandon> Zerlinna: yes
[09:54] <ajmitch> LaserJock: 5-min break between sessions
[09:54] <Lure> Zerlinna: probably Q for Mark tommorow on Q&A...
[09:54] <imbrandon> Zerlinna: we just dont know who or when it will happen ( i'm guessing very soon )
[09:55] <imbrandon> but better to ask mark tomarrow
[09:55] <imbrandon> right Lure
[09:55] <Zerlinna> ok :)
[09:55] <cbx33> LaserJock, no we want you to start NOW !
[09:55] <imbrandon> ok i'm out fellas, you all rock
[09:55] <ivoks> you too

[09:57] <somerville32> I think my head is going to blow with all this awesome new stuff I'm learning today! :D
[09:57] <fabio_> QUESTION, when i open the recorder, the stop button was always hidden and i must resize always the window, when the defult windows will be increase? :D
[09:58] <popey> fabio_: works fine here
[09:58] <fabio_> :o
[09:58] <popey> on feisty :)
[09:58] <fabio_> yesss but also with me nowwww
[09:58] <popey> :)
[09:58] <fabio_> sorry for mistake!! :p
[09:58] <djay-il> QUESTION: when would package maintenance things will be explained?
[09:59] <fabio_> maybe is tango!
[09:59] <finalbeta> djay-il, any minute now.
[09:59] <LaserJock> 1 minute
[09:59] <tonyyarusso> imbrandon is all done?
[09:59] <djay-il> oh, cool
[10:00] <gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: looks like it
[10:00] <cbx33> my clock says now LaserJock :p
[10:00] <djay-il> I had another question, just don't know who to ask
[10:00] <Jucato> yep, he already detached
[10:00] <Lure> djay-il: ask in -chat or in #kubuntu-devel
[10:01] <LaserJock> ok, I think that's my queue
[10:01] <LaserJock> Hello everybody!
[10:01] <LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Chemistry student and Ubuntu volunteer.
[10:01] <djay-il> Lure, even if its not really technical?
[10:01] <LaserJock> In Ubuntu I'm a Universe developer, a part of the Documentation Team, on the Edubuntu Council, and am just generally an Ubuntu-holic.
[10:01] <LaserJock> Today I want to talk a little about what how we maintain software once it's already in our software repositories (Main, Restricted, Universe, Multiverse)
[10:01] <LaserJock> First of all, in order to keep the noise level down a bit in here, please also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and when you want to ask a question just put a "Question:" in front of your question. Thanks.
[10:02] <LaserJock> To be honest I don't have a full hour of lecturing ready
[10:02] <LaserJock> and everybody goes "Yay!"
[10:02] <finalbeta> yay
[10:02] <tictacaddict> Yay!
[10:03] <somerville32> :)
[10:03] <LaserJock> so I'll start out with some material and then open it up for some Q & A
[10:03] <LaserJock> I think there are 2 things that are important to keep in mind here:
[10:03] <LaserJock> 1. Ubuntu is intimately connected to Debian
[10:03] <LaserJock> 2. Ubuntu uses Launchpad ( http://launchpad.net ) for virtually all package maintenance
[10:03] <LaserJock> Let's look at both of those a little more carefully.
[10:04] <LaserJock> Ubuntu, as most of you probably know, is derived from Debian
[10:04] <LaserJock> which is one of the oldest Linux distros around
[10:04] <LaserJock> At the beginning of every Ubuntu development cycle the archive admins update the Ubuntu development repository with the packages that are currently in Debian unstable (Sid).
[10:04] <LaserJock> If the package was previously changed or modified by Ubuntu it will have ubuntu in the version (alacarte's version in 6.10 is  0.10.1-0ubuntu1 for instance).
[10:05] <LaserJock> If the package has an ubuntu version then it won't be "synced" automatically, but instead a special script called Merge-o-Matic (MoM) will try to merge the changes as best it can and spit out a report on http://merges.ubuntu.com
[10:05] <LaserJock> *Every* updated package that previously had Ubuntu changes is checked manually and either merged if the old changes are still needed or synced if they can be dropped. This takes a fair amount of time and accounts for a lot of the maintenance work we do in Ubuntu.
[10:05] <LaserJock> In Universe our primary goal is the manage (and minimize) the divergence we create from Debian. In Main there is a bit more emphasis on going beyond just managing divergence and really into developing and leading the way in desktop development.
[10:06] <LaserJock> Because of our intimate connection it is important that we keep at least some track of what's going on in Debian. We do this primarily via the Debian Bug Tracking System (BTS)
[10:06] <LaserJock> http://bugs.debian.org
[10:06] <LaserJock> and Package Tracking System (PTS)
[10:06] <LaserJock> http://packages.qa.debian.org
[10:06] <LaserJock> This allows us to keep track of Debian versions and bug fixes.
[10:07] <LaserJock> OK, so now I'll give you a little time to digest all that and ask any questions so far
[10:07] <LaserJock> nice, I see I've explained everything perfectly :-)
[10:08] <tictacaddict> I have a question
[10:08] <LaserJock> shoot
[10:08] <tictacaddict> Can unmodified debian packages normally be installed in Ubuntu?  will there be problems with dependencies sometimes?
[10:08] <LaserJock> yes
[10:08] <LaserJock> there are differences
[10:09] <LaserJock> although the source packages may not be different, *every* package in Ubuntu is rebuilt in an Ubuntu environment
[10:09] <LaserJock> so the resulting binary packages often have slightly different dependecies
[10:09] <greguti> I have a question..
[10:09] <whowe> QUESTION:  Will Ubuntu packages work fine in Mepis or should you use the Debian packages, I have noticed on a machine with Mepis that it uses Ubuntu repositories
[10:09] <danbuntu> QUESTION - by roughly how much do the packages change, what changes and why?
[10:10] <cbx33> danbuntu, that's exactly what I was goign to ask
[10:11] <LaserJock> whowe: they might, but there certainly isn't any way to say for sure. It's obviously best to use packages built for your distro
[10:11] <greguti> QUESTION: how many people spend their time checking the MoM packages? You said it takes a lot of time, but for how many developpers?
[10:11] <LaserJock> danbuntu: primarily the changes are in dependences or if there is something that Ubuntu is pushing forward with
[10:11] <amnesia> post the questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[10:11] <LaserJock> examples have been when we used a newer default Python and gcc version
[10:12] <LaserJock> we had to "tweak" the dependecies to use those versions
[10:12] <somerville32> LaserJock: Did you finish your presentation and now at Q&A or are we just in a Q&A "break"?
[10:12] <LaserJock> Q & A break
[10:12] <somerville32> :)
[10:12] <LaserJock> I've got more
[10:12] <LaserJock> some package change very little, like literally one line
[10:13] <LaserJock> other are pretty heavily patched
[10:13] <LaserJock> it depends on what Ubuntu wants to have to maintain
[10:13] <LaserJock> because the next time around we are going to have to merge those changes back in
[10:13] <LaserJock> so that goes to greguti's question of just how much time is this taking
[10:14] <LaserJock> well, generally it takes all the developers a few months to get the process comleted
[10:14] <LaserJock> Main has more paid developers and there is a larger packages/devs ratio
[10:14] <LaserJock> so it goes faster
[10:14] <LaserJock> to give you an idea
[10:15] <LaserJock> there are 18656 source packages in Edgy Universe
[10:15] <LaserJock> 1250 of them have ubuntu versions and have to be merges/synced
[10:15] <tsmithe> woah
[10:15] <La_PaRCa>  QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian BTS and PTS automatic for each package or is it "by hand"?
[10:16] <LaserJock> in Main the number is 5382 and 978
[10:16] <LaserJock> so total in Ubuntu there are roughly 2000 packages that have to be manually looked at with each release
[10:16] <LaserJock> La_PaRCa: some of both
[10:16] <greguti> that's a lot!
[10:16] <ajmitch> it is a lot
[10:16] <LaserJock> and there are roughly 80-100 people doing it
[10:17] <tsmithe> 20 each
[10:17] <ajmitch> but not all of them are updated every release cycle
[10:17] <greguti> that is an average of 20 packages for each people...
[10:17] <Sionide> ajmitch, aye but dependencies etc might change so they still need testing (i guess anyway)
[10:18] <LaserJock> yes, each package must be looked at, modified if needed, and rebuilt and tested befor it ever gets uploaded
[10:18] <cbx33>  Does one need an intimate knowledge of make/automake to be able to package "make" source tree?
[10:18] <greguti> (thanks for all these informations, this Open Week irc chats are such a great idea)
[10:18] <LaserJock> intimate, no, some is helpful though :-)
[10:18] <tenshu> is debian merging changes with ubuntu packages the same way ubuntu does?
[10:19] <LaserJock> tenshu: no
[10:19] <LaserJock> Debian has a different maintainance structure than Ubuntu
[10:20] <LaserJock> in Debian each package has a maintiane or even team of maintainers that "own" a package
[10:20] <LaserJock> in Ubuntu we use team maintianence
[10:20] <Lure> QUESTION: Is the tracking of the debian systems automatic for each package or is it by hand?
[10:20] <tsmithe> didnt we have that q?
[10:20] <Lure> ^^^ by <La_PaRCa>
[10:20] <LaserJock> so MOTU ( Masters of the Universe) maintain *all* of the Universe repo
[10:21] <LaserJock> ok, so an example of a semi-automatic system is a list I maintain for the MOTU Science team
[10:21] <LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.list
 QUESTION: Is it possible that a package which has no bugs in debian has bugs in Ubuntu?
[10:22] <LaserJock> ^^ is an example of a system we set up to track Ubuntu and Debian changes
[10:22] <tsmithe> LaserJock, not found
[10:22] <tsmithe> :(
[10:22] <LaserJock> sorry
[10:22] <LaserJock> http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/feisty/all.html
[10:22] <tsmithe> cool
[10:22] <LaserJock> adefelic1: yes it is possible, anytime you modify something there is a chance you introduce a bug
[10:23] <LaserJock> we'd like to think we fix more then we introduce :-)
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to keep WINE up-to-date and available as a .deb within the official Ubuntu repos, rather than have it sit at the version it is now within them, leaving people to use a 3rd party repo without a gpg key (unless they compile from source) to get the latest version?
[10:23] <LaserJock> well, that is always the goal
[10:23] <gnomefreak> what version is it at now?
[10:24] <gnomefreak> 22?
[10:24] <LaserJock> we don't sit around all day thinking how we can give users old, crusty software
[10:24] <LaserJock> we try to do our best to have as stable and updated of software as we can
[10:24] <LaserJock> but wine is maintained by the Ubuntu community and it's a tough packages
[10:24] <LaserJock> so you are more than welcome to help maintain it and we can help you along the way
[10:25] <cbx33> compiling from source is pretty easy
[10:25] <cbx33> esp for wine
 Question, what's the recommended route for some interesting in contributing to package maintaing?
[10:25] <LaserJock> Get in contact with the MOTU team
[10:25] <LaserJock> either #ubuntu-motu or the ubuntu-motu mailing list on lists.ubuntu.com
[10:26] <LaserJock> MOTU does a lot of work on helping people learn to create and maintain packages
[10:26] <LaserJock> tsmithe: I agree
[10:26] <LaserJock> ok, lets move on a little bit more
[10:26] <cbx33> it totally does
[10:26] <cbx33> the pacakging guide is great too
[10:26] <LaserJock> the second thing I wanted to talk about was Launchpad
[10:27] <LaserJock> The first thing is you have to figure out how to use Launchpad. It is a rather large and sometimes confusing system but it also houses a lot of power.
[10:27] <LaserJock> My primary advice to people who want to use Launchpad very much is to learn how to create your own URL.
[10:27] <LaserJock> For instance, if you want to know about a particular source package use:
[10:27] <LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>
[10:27] <LaserJock> If you want to see all the bugs for a package just add on +bugs:
[10:27] <LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>/+bugs
[10:27] <LaserJock> Parts of the URL with the + in front are important, they are like modifiers to the thing that goes before it. In this case we want to see bugs for <packagename>
[10:28] <LaserJock> so really package maintainance in Ubuntu is broken down into 2 parts for the most part
[10:28] <LaserJock> the first is the merge/synce process that we've already talked about
[10:28] <LaserJock> where we sort of take a new snapshot of Debian
[10:29] <LaserJock> the second part comes after we've done that and we've "frozen"
[10:29] <LaserJock> and that is bug fixing
[10:30] <LaserJock> for that we use the Launchpad bug tracking system called Malone
[10:30] <LaserJock> ok, Lure can you pull in some more questions?
 Question - there's always talk of weather rpm, tqz, deb or what ever is better. Do you think that the current deb system is still relevent and suitable?
[10:31] <LaserJock> well, that is an interesting question
[10:31] <LaserJock> my answer is I haven't seen anything better that can be used at this scale
[10:32] <LaserJock> I think debs are still very relevent and suitable
[10:32] <Lure>  <tictacaddict> QUESTION: Malone like Mal-Won or Maloney
[10:32] <LaserJock> there are a major reason why Debian is as stable and secure as it is
[10:32] <cbx33> mal-own?
[10:33] <LaserJock> and it is also in development
[10:33] <gnomefreak> ma-lone is kind of how i say it :)
[10:33] <LaserJock> me too
[10:33] <Lure> gnomefreak: +1
[10:33] <ryanakca> m-alone :)
 Question : It seems to have a lot of work done with merging/syncing; But why does it take so long to get a package accepted through REVU?
[10:33] <LaserJock> ah, good question
[10:34] <LaserJock> the basic answer is (in my experience) it is very difficult to review other people's packages
[10:34] <LaserJock> in fact I can often take more time reviewing a package than the person did actually making it
[10:34] <woodwizzle> I'm still a big fan of portage. It solves most of the problems with dependencies and has excellent features for optional packages etc. It makes updating very easy too. Its just that loooong compile time that ruins it. I would like something new with most of those features.
[10:35] <LaserJock> woodwizzle: yes, I'm a former Gentoo user. portage has some rather nice features
[10:35] <Joe_CoT> yes, aren't we /all/ former gentoo users ^_^
 QUESTION: Can you explain backports and stable release updates? How easy is it to get each approved respectively? What circumstances call for these to occur?, etc.
[10:36] <LaserJock> tenshu: to continue answering your question, it's also a time managment issue. maintaining the packages we already have takes a lot of time too
[10:36] <LaserJock> people want new packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> people want the latest packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> people want bug-free packages
[10:36] <LaserJock> at some point we can't do it all :-)
[10:37] <LaserJock> so we try to work on a little bit of all of those
[10:37] <Lure> LaserJock: and it is only 6 month to do this all ;-)
[10:37] <LaserJock> yes
[10:37] <LaserJock> we spend a few months getting all synced up to Debian
[10:38] <LaserJock> we spend a fair amount of time bug fixing
[10:38] <LaserJock> people intersted in the timing should check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule
[10:38] <Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[10:38] <LaserJock> ok, yes
[10:39] <Lure> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BackportsHowto
[10:39] <LaserJock> once a Release has been released it is really frozen
[10:39] <LaserJock> we don't add any totally new packages
[10:39] <LaserJock> and we have 3 channels for updates
[10:39] <LaserJock> -security (what the name suggests, security fixes)
[10:40] <LaserJock> -updates (major and high impact bug fixes. "Ma, my computer ate my homework"
[10:40] <LaserJock> -backports ( taking packages from the development release and building them for a stable release)
 QUESTION: why did you choose to use Launchpad and not some other bug-tracking and versioning system? What are the benefits of this system?
[10:41] <LaserJock> we have policies in place (as Lure gave some URLs for) for all of these
[10:41] <LaserJock> greguti: ah, well Launchpad is written by Canonical
[10:41] <LaserJock> we used to use bugzilla for our bug-tracking
[10:42] <LaserJock> but Canonical wanted to build a large infrastructure for distro and software development
[10:42] <kudzubane> malone vs. bugzilla?
[10:42] <LaserJock> so we have bug tracking, translations, specification tracking, meeting tracking, teams
[10:43] <LaserJock> so when Launchpad and Malone seemed usable we switched over
[10:43] <LaserJock> and now we are using it for package building and archiving
 QUESTION: Are there plans to make the REVU process documented a little clearer?
[10:43] <LaserJock> of course :-)
[10:43] <cbx33> short ans sweet I love it ;)
 QUESTION: are there formal regression tests for new/updated packages during the revu process?
[10:44] <LaserJock> we have plans of making everything perfectly documented and running like a well-oiled-machines
[10:44] <LaserJock> however, that takes a lot of manpower and will take some time
[10:45] <LaserJock> kudzubane: revu specifically?
[10:45] <kudzubane> LaserJock: yes
[10:45] <LaserJock> REVU is primarly designed for brand new packages, ones that don't exist in Ubuntu/Debian currently
[10:45] <kudzubane> LaserJock: my mistake, all packages
[10:45] <LaserJock> we usually use bug reports for patches to existing packages
[10:46] <ajmitch> there are plans afoot for distro-wide testing
[10:46] <LaserJock> I can't speak a whole lot about Main on this
[10:46] <LaserJock> but there are plans
 QUESTION: Where should bugs against feisty get filed in launchpad? Do we have to check whether the package differs to the one in Edgy?
[10:46] <LaserJock> so far it's more-or-less been up to individual developers to test things before uploading
[10:47] <LaserJock> diocles: file it like any bug. it's always helpful to say what release you are running and what version of the package you are using
 QUESTION - do you ever get time to sleep or is all just package, package, package?
[10:47] <LaserJock> diocles: what's sleep?
[10:47] <ajmitch> LaserJock never sleeps, he just keeps on going
 QUESTION: what does the final '4' mean in the package version: 0.9.22-0ubuntu4
[10:48] <LaserJock> gumpa: well, the first time we changed it we used 0.9.22-0ubuntu1
[10:48] <LaserJock> the 4 just means we've updated that package 3 more times
[10:48] <LaserJock> since then
 QUESTION: Wouldn't it be better to have some of the newer packages make it into -updates instead of -backports? Sometimes people don't like enabling -backports and -updates. Maybe -updates would be appropriate? Example, the recent changes upstream for flashplugin-nonfree. It meant that flash was broken on newly installed dapper systems until you use -backport or manually install the -backport deb.
[10:49] <LaserJock> well, that's a tough question
[10:49] <Terminus> whoops just i meant they don't like enabling just -backports. sorry. i just woke up. =)
[10:49] <LaserJock> we have worked out a Stable Release Updtate policy that should help clear up what does and doesn't go into updates and makes sure it is properly tested
[10:50] <LaserJock> the problem is that -updates and -backports have a different focus
[10:50] <LaserJock> -updates is focused at fixing bugs in an existing package
[10:50] <LaserJock> that has to make sure that we aren't introducing new bugs
[10:51] <Terminus> well, i would say that flashplugin-nonfree not working is definitely a bug. =)
[10:51] <LaserJock> we want to make the user's system *more* stable not less
[10:51] <LaserJock> -backports is focused more at getting the latest versions
 QUESTION: How do we 'get our hands dirty'?
[10:52] <LaserJock> I'm not sure about flash but it does take more time to get into -updates then -backports because of the stability issue
[10:52] <Terminus> i see. thanks. =)
[10:53] <LaserJock> I'd really encourage everybody interested in contributing to check out the MOTU
[10:53] <LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[10:53] <LaserJock> and #ubuntu-motu
[10:53] <LaserJock> these are the community volunteers that make Universe and Multiverse work
[10:53] <LaserJock> and they are the entry point into learning how to package and maintianing packages in Ubuntu
[10:53] <LaserJock> I can in now way do justice to the topic in 1 hr
[10:54] <LaserJock> but hopefully I've given you a few things to chew on and perhaps answered a few of your questions
 Question: Sorry, what is REVU again?
[10:54] <greguti> thanks a lot for your time
[10:54] <LaserJock> we really like to emphasize community participation
[10:54] <LaserJock> and you are really welcome to help us out, no matter what your skill level is
[10:55] <LaserJock> we aren't just looking for programmers (although they are handy too ;-) )
[10:55] <LaserJock> tictacaddict: revu.tauware.de
[10:55] <LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU
[10:55] <Lure> tictacaddict: revu is read as "review"
[10:55] <tenshu> yes i can tell it packaging don't required (much) programming skill
[10:56] <LaserJock> it's the system we wrote to allow us to review and include packages from the community into Universe
 QUESTION: Wouldnt it make sense to have the auomatix packages available as standard but restricted depending on your location. i.e. if they are legal in your part of the world?
[10:56] <LaserJock> zi99y: no
[10:56] <LaserJock> Automatix is something that is used quite a bit in forums community
[10:57] <LaserJock> but it is essentially obsolete
[10:57] <LaserJock> and I really don't see it serving a purpose anymore once Feisty is released
[10:57] <LaserJock> it filled a gap for a while, but it's probably time for it to go soon
[10:58] <LaserJock> but that's just my opinion :-)
[10:58] <Lure> zi99y: see also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonCustomizations
[10:58] <LaserJock> we saw lots of breakage in the Dapper->Edgy upgrades because of third party repos
[10:58] <LaserJock> and scripts like Automatix
[10:58] <Lure>  <tm|ubuntu> Is there any plan to have something analogous to debian-volatile?
[10:59] <LaserJock> it's just hard on the system to do things like that
[11:00] <LaserJock> tm|ubuntu: well, there has been a longstanding proposal for something called Grumpy Groundhog
[11:00] <monkeric> LaserJock: this has been super useful.  Just wanted to say a huge Thank You.
[11:00] <LaserJock> it might be somewhat similar, although more towards debian's experimental repo
[11:00] <LaserJock> ok, I'm done
 QUESTION: Will the "becoming a MOTU" get a structure? ie: Step1, Step2 and so on?
[11:00] <LaserJock> Thanks everybody
[11:00] <LaserJock> _MMA_: yes it will
[11:00] <tictacaddict> Thank YOU!
[11:01] <kudzubane> thanks for sharing , it was enlightening to peep into a component  of a the a new (to me) distro
[11:01] <LaserJock> hmm, I guess I'm the last person of today
[11:01] <greguti> thank you so much, ubuntu rules :-)
[11:01] <tiagoboldt> sure, thank U! :D And the ones responsible for these sessions :D
[11:01] <LaserJock> so if you have any remaning questions feel free to ask
[11:01] <stani> thanks!
[11:01] <tenshu> thanks LaserJock, and i'm hoping REVU will becom more efficient in a close future
[11:01] <tenshu> =)
[11:02] <Jucato> QUESTION: where's the food? don't they give those out after seminars? :P
[11:02] <zi99y> any opensuse devs here? :D
[11:02] <LaserJock> Jucato: ahh, Google is the place for food
[11:02] <geser> Jucato: in the fridge :)
[11:02] <amnesia> LaserJock: thanks for the info today
[11:02] <LaserJock> tenshu: we do to
[11:02] <zi99y> thanks LJ
[11:02] <tenshu> =) count on me
[11:02] <Jucato> heheh :)
[11:03] <antihec> but do take care, things in the ubuntu fridge are of rare supply and sometimes a bit old ;-)
[11:03] <LaserJock> antihec: maybe even a bit moldy :/
[11:03] <Jucato> eww... :)
[11:03] <LaserJock> OK, make sure to come tomorrow if you can
[11:03] <LaserJock> lots more info
[11:03] <LaserJock> and fun!!!
[11:03] <Terminus> thanks LaserJock =)
[11:03] <antihec> LaserJock: :-)
[11:04] <Jucato> thanks LaserJock!!
[11:04] <tiagoboldt> packaging would have chatting for hours :D
[11:04] <Jucato> lots more fun in the Ask Mark session :P
[11:05] <tiagoboldt> sure 'how's space mark?' xD
[11:05] <jonasj> thanks LaserJock, it has been very enlightning.
[11:06] <tonyyarusso> robotgeek: Fine!  Be that way!
[11:07] <robotgeek> tonyyarusso: heh, beat you to it :)
[11:07] <tonyyarusso> :(
[11:07] <robotgeek> tonyyarusso: you can change it tommorow morning to "current session" :)
[11:19] <LjL> gnomefreak: i've had Keyseir run "memtest" (not memtest86, but memtest from the "memtester" package - it's a program that checks RAM *from inside* Linux)
[11:20] <LjL> gnomefreak: and he's getting a bunch of failures. which means either the RAM is bad, or Linux is messing up badly with it. and since memtest86 isn't failing, i guess it's really just Linux
[11:22] <antihec> LjL:  third possibility: "memtester" is br0ken.
[11:22] <Seveas> @channel plugins.questions.enabled True
[11:38] <andy> hi
[11:44] <root> exit
[11:44] <root> quit
[11:44] <root> exit
[11:48] <andre2> hi all
[11:48] <Pirige> hi
[11:49] <andre2> i read about the ubuntu week today on heise online
[11:49] <andre2> but missed the appointment :(
[11:50] <Terminus> andre2: there're chat logs available. see topic. =)
[11:50] <nalioth> andre2: there are 4 more days  :)
[11:50] <tristanbob> are the logs of these classroom discussions going to be posted anywhere?
[11:50] <Seveas> @next
[11:50] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:50] <nalioth> tristanbob: /topic ?
[11:50] <LjL> tristanbob: /topic
[11:51] <Pirige> Did I miss the kubuntu talk?
[11:51] <andre2> yes
[11:51] <Pirige> when was it?
[11:51] <tristanbob> nalioth: thanks - LjL
[11:52] <dabaR> Pirige: you can read the logs, like I am...
[11:52] <dabaR> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
[11:52] <Seveas> @dump
[11:52] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:52] <Pirige> thanks
[11:52] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:52] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: what?
[11:52] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[11:52] <Seveas> @clear
[11:52] <Seveas> @dump
[11:52] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[11:52] <LaserJock> Seveas: is it working?
[11:52] <Seveas> yes
[11:52] <LaserJock> how does it work?
[11:53] <zorglu_> Seveas: you do a bot to handle meeting/conference thru irc ?
[11:53] <Seveas> LaserJock, I'll send an email to sounder in a it
[11:53] <Seveas> bit*
[11:53] <LaserJock> Seveas: ok, excellent
[11:54] <Terminus> Seveas: does that have perms? i'd hate to think what would happen if somebody randomly does @clear. =)
[11:54] <Terminus> or maybe restrict that kind of access to ops?
[11:54] <Seveas> it has no perms
[11:54] <Seveas> may be useful
[11:55] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: Oooh, yeah.  op restriction would be important, potentially.
[11:55] <nalioth> nobody has perms for @clear, to my knowledge
[11:55] <Seveas> nalioth, it's the @clear of the just writtn qustions plugin
[11:55] <Seveas> everybody can do that
[11:55] <samkong> I missed all today.. :(
[11:56] <nalioth> ok, i'm very lost
[11:56] <Seveas> nalioth, don't worry :P)
[11:56] <Seveas> err s/P//
[11:57] <antihec> there are logs, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[11:57] <samkong> is there any log of today's conversation on this room?
[11:57] <samkong> :)
[11:57] <antihec> samkong: might want to read up.
[11:57] <samkong> heh thanks
[11:57] <antihec> welcome :)
[11:57] <dabaR> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html samkong
[11:57] <samkong> :)
[11:57] <andre2> great
[11:57] <samkong> thanks a lot..
[11:57] <samkong> :)
[11:58] <andre2> so i have a lot to read tomorrow
[11:58] <antihec> yeah, me too :)
[11:59] <Seveas> nalioth, is the person who runs a session opped/voiced?
[12:00] <apokryphos> generally
[12:00] <Seveas> which of them?
[12:00] <Seveas> oped?
[12:00] <nalioth> Seveas: the channel hasn't been moderated that i've seen
[12:01] <tonyyarusso> Seveas, nalioth: We've had a little of everything.
[12:01] <Seveas> nalioth, two new commands need to be restricted without people registering with the bot
[12:01] <Seveas> so preferably the person doing a session is opped
[12:02] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: It is relatively easy to have the presenter (or at least someone in attendance) opped.
[12:02] <Terminus> or at least voiced
[12:02] <apokryphos> they were opped, but generally it wasn't +m
[12:02] <apokryphos> it really depends on the talk though