[12:02] <tonyyarusso> Terminus: ^^, which is why voice doesn't mean much
[12:03] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: at least one of them did it without even being opped
[12:03] <Terminus> tonyyarusso: yeah, but in this case, voice would be use to restrict who has access to the bot, not who can speak under +m. =)
[12:04] <Seveas> apokryphos, noone does ;)
[12:14] <theCore> were are the logs?
[12:14] <theCore> where/
[12:14] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Check the wiki page
[12:14] <apokryphos> ubotu: logs
[12:14] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[12:14] <theCore> I checked at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs but they aren't there
[12:15] <antihec> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
[12:15] <nalioth>  /topig
[12:15] <nalioth> theCore: /topic
[12:15] <theCore> ok, I got them
[12:15] <theCore> thanks
[12:15] <nalioth> i would put /topic in the onjoin, but folks ignore those, too
[12:16] <antihec> you'd have to have an overlay flash-banner or something ;-)
[12:16] <theCore> nalioth, I read the topic, it's just that the logs list is so long
[12:16] <dabaR> The seb128 session was not so informative for me.
[12:17] <dabaR> Maybe for someone who never heard of any of those things.
[12:17] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Try the "Backup" listed on the wiki for saner ones.
[12:17] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I did
[12:17] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Wait a few hours ;)
[12:17] <theCore> ah
[12:17] <theCore> well, I just want to read today session
[12:17] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Which one?
[12:18] <theCore> all of them
[12:18] <dabaR> someone should do some parsing work, to remove all joins and leaves and crap from the logs
[12:18] <theCore> I am preparing Friday's quiz based on the Open Week content
[12:18] <antihec> dabaR: go ahead :-)
[12:19] <dabaR> if it proves the sessions are useful for the general public and then they could be put on a wiki or somehwere.
[12:19] <dabaR> I bet someone is gonna do it, it is very obvious
[12:19] <theCore> I will
[12:20] <BOOOYAAA> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssuuuuuuup
[12:20] <LaserJock> jono: you're back!
[12:21] <jono> heya :)
[12:21] <jono> hows things?
[12:21] <LaserJock> phew, what a day :-)
[12:21] <jono> busy, eh :)
[12:21] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:21] <jono> I am really pleased with it
[12:21] <LaserJock> yeah, I had  310-330 people in here for mine
[12:21] <jono> awesome isnt it :)
[12:21] <tonyyarusso> dabaR: My log should be ignoring joins parts quits already...
[12:21] <jono> I am so proud of our community :)
[12:21] <LaserJock> yeah, better then I expected
[12:22] <theCore> hello LaserJock
[12:22] <LaserJock> hi theCore
[12:22] <apokryphos> yeah, this week is a wonderful idea, certainly :)
[12:22] <apokryphos> it's nice to get some more interaction from the devs on IRC, too =)
[12:22] <LaserJock> jono: we need a little bit better question control but I think Seveas is taking care of that
[12:22] <apokryphos> (like the older days)
[12:22] <tonyyarusso> dabaR: And some kind soul pointed me to a cleanup script.
[12:22] <jono> well I can I assure you it will be repeated
[12:22] <YoussefAssad> was there any heckling of any form from suse-folk?
[12:22] <jono> YoussefAssad: nope
[12:22] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock, jono: Yep - someone gave me an idea and I got him to implement it :)
[12:23] <YoussefAssad> That's a relief.
[12:23] <apokryphos> YoussefAssad: not at all. Most suse users have responded very well to Mark's actions
[12:23] <LaserJock> no, most of the heckling was from Ubuntu people ;-)
[12:23] <jono> hehe
[12:23] <jono> I think we have week of excellent sessions planned
[12:23] <jono> I nearly got RSI from the typing in my own session
[12:23] <jono> some great questions came through :)
[12:23] <YoussefAssad> apokryphos: I'd hope so. I can't see why anyone would stay that close to Novell now, whether they jump ship to ubuntu or wherever
[12:23] <tonyyarusso> We had some awesome questions like "who does dholbach's hair?" and "How can I grow a rocking beard like yours?"
[12:23] <YoussefAssad> anyhow, that's off-topic. Apologies
[12:24] <jono> tonyyarusso: woo!!
[12:24] <LaserJock> haha
[12:24] <antihec> hehe
[12:24] <apokryphos> YoussefAssad: that's ridiculous. Novell is only a sponsor of openSUSE, like Canonical to Ubuntu. It doesn't dictate how they act
[12:25] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock, jono: heck, I'll just show you methinks
[12:25] <apokryphos> furthermore, I think people have plainly overreacted to the whole issue. But hey.
[12:25] <tonyyarusso> @next
[12:25] <Ubugtu> tonyyarusso asked: So what do you guys think of the spiffy bot?
[12:25] <YoussefAssad> apokryphos: I wouldn't want a corporation telling me it was covering my arse but not my friend's just because he was an ubuntu packager and not a suse developer
[12:25] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: oo, so what kind of things are going to be implemtented.
[12:25] <Terminus> @next
[12:25] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[12:26] <antihec> @clear ;-)
[12:26] <Ubugtu> clear Delete remaining questions
[12:26] <jono> how do people add the questions?
[12:26] <YoussefAssad> apokryphos: worse, telling me it was covering my butt for things which they were certain I hadn't done, but you know, just in case.
[12:26] <apokryphos> nice
[12:26] <Terminus> jono: prefix it with QUESTION.
[12:26] <tonyyarusso> You preface yours with question: in -chat
[12:26] <theCore> I planning to strip the logs, where would be the best place to put the content? under UbuntuOpenWeek/Logs?
[12:26] <YoussefAssad> there I go, offtopic again
[12:26] <Terminus> like QUESTION: How do people ask questions?
[12:26] <Seveas> 'question:' actually
[12:26] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Sounds good
[12:26] <Seveas> the colon is needed
[12:26] <apokryphos> YoussefAssad: join me in -offtopic briefly, if you want.
[12:26] <nalioth> theCore: w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
[12:26] <jono> Terminus: ahhh
[12:27] <Terminus> Seveas: whoops... right. forgot. hehe
[12:27] <Terminus> @next
[12:27] <Ubugtu> tonyyarusso asked: in -chat
[12:27] <theCore> nalioth, ok, thanks
[12:27] <apokryphos> looks good
[12:27] <Terminus> hmmm...
[12:27] <tonyyarusso> Oh cool, it doesn't require it to begin the string
[12:27] <Terminus> QUESTION: How do people ask questions?
[12:27] <tonyyarusso> That lets you put a comment before it, if that's useful
[12:27] <Terminus> @next
[12:27] <Ubugtu> Terminus asked: How do people ask questions?
[12:27] <La_PaRCa> @next
[12:27] <Ubugtu> La_PaRCa asked: Spiffy bot?
[12:27] <theCore> Seveas, I will probably steal your little question plugin for #ubuntu-trivia ;)
[12:28] <Terminus> well, it works. hehe
[12:28] <Seveas> theCore, code is not available yet :)
[12:28] <tonyyarusso> theCore: good idea though
[12:28] <jono> could this question system be written up on a wiki page somewhere
[12:28] <jono> we can trial it for a session and see how it works
[12:28] <ompaul>  /mode +m classroom and then the lecture begins - with someone acting as mentor/notetaker
[12:28] <Seveas> if it doesn't work, just mute the bot
[12:28] <ompaul> and they got the questions passed to them
[12:28] <theCore> Seveas, I got the bot bzr's branch. Tell me when you will update it
[12:29] <ompaul> then they passed the questions on at the end
[12:29] <Terminus> Seveas: the bot responded when i said 'like QUESTION: How do people ask questions?' but didn't store it. maybe stop it from reacting if it doesn't match /^question:/i ?
[12:29] <ompaul> rather than having a place where the questions were "brewed"
[12:29] <Terminus> @next
[12:29] <Ubugtu> Terminus asked: How do people ask questions?
[12:29] <Terminus> @next
[12:29] <Ubugtu> Terminus asked: How do people ask questions?' but didn't store it. maybe stop it from reacting if it doesn't match /^question:/i ?
[12:29] <Terminus> lol
[12:29] <Seveas> Terminus, what was the response?
[12:29] <antihec> hehe
[12:29] <LaserJock> ompaul: well, I think it's a bit handier for the speaker to control the question flow
[12:30] <Terminus> Seveas: the thank you for your question bit.
[12:30] <Terminus> @next
[12:30] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[12:30] <Seveas> @reload Questions
[12:30] <Seveas> fixed
[12:30] <ompaul> LaserJock, the way that system works is that the "same question" gets asked once and at one time
[12:30] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Yes, but people wanted to do some talk on the side anyway, and it's nice to be able to ask your question when you think of it.
[12:30] <Terminus> cool. thanks. =)
[12:30] <LaserJock> ompaul: but that's not suitable for all
[12:30] <Terminus> blah blah blah QUESTION: i have no question.
[12:31] <Seveas> ompaul, tonyyarusso suggested it and I was slightly bored ;)
[12:31] <ompaul> LaserJock, alas nothing is suitable for all
[12:31] <LaserJock> sure :-)
[12:31] <ompaul> Seveas, heh
[12:31] <Seveas> ompaul, so if it works: good and if it doesn': meh
[12:31] <ypsila> good night / evening
[12:31] <LaserJock> Seveas: is there a way for the op to see the list of questions
[12:31] <ompaul> Seveas, my previous comment, ditto ;-)
[12:31] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: Are you working on making it op-only?
[12:31] <Terminus> @next
[12:31] <Ubugtu> Terminus asked: foo
[12:32] <Terminus> ok. works. =)
[12:32] <Seveas> LaserJock, no, tonyyarusso yes
[12:32] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: LaserJock's idea could also be good - I suppose if dump doesn't clear that would do it, no?
[12:32] <ompaul> question: to be or not to be is that a question?
[12:32] <Seveas> yeah
[12:32] <ompaul> @next
[12:32] <Ubugtu> ompaul asked: to be or not to be is that a question?
[12:33] <ompaul> seveas want to make it "smarter"
[12:34] <ompaul> log it and push it to a web page - then people can see what is already asked for a session
[12:34] <ypsila> in a classroom you don not greet people?
[12:34] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Oooo - fancy!
[12:34] <antihec> ypsila: only the teacher.
[12:34] <Seveas> ompaul, we have logs for that
[12:34] <Seveas> they include answers :P
[12:34] <ypsila> antihec: and this is who? please?
[12:35] <antihec> ypsila: I have no idea :)
[12:35] <ypsila> good
[12:35] <ompaul> Seveas, question: can someone see the questions on the fly?
[12:35] <ypsila> or bad
[12:36] <Seveas> ompaul, not yet
[12:36] <antihec> ompaul: whoever reads -chat can, I think.
[12:36] <ompaul> Seveas, I note the "yet"
[12:37] <theCore> wow, the session lasted 2 hours?
[12:37] <ompaul> antihec, if I join late and 25 people have asked the same question I may ask it again -- however if it is on a web page then I may not ask it etc
[12:37] <theCore> that will be long to strip down
[12:37] <ompaul> theCore, would not be the first time -classroom went over budget on time
[12:37] <YoussefAssad> theCore: You aren't stripping manually?
[12:37] <theCore> YoussefAssad, I was planning to
[12:38] <YoussefAssad> gah. Show me the link to the log...
[12:38] <ypsila> strange
[12:38] <theCore> but I will probably need to find a better way
[12:38] <LaserJock> theCore: the sessions were 1hr long
[12:38] <antihec> YoussefAssad: theCore, hehe, you don't want to have that cited out of context :-)
[12:38] <LaserJock> haha
[12:38] <YoussefAssad> antihec: Especially since we're talking about actually stripping IRC logs... Self-referential self-incrimination
[12:39] <theCore> there's been a lot of hugs during that session it seems
[12:39] <LaserJock> ypsila: what's up
[12:39] <YoussefAssad> is this it?  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html
[12:40] <ypsila> LaserJock: I'm new to kubuntu-de
[12:40] <Terminus> oh yeah, it should be mentioned that the timestamps in the logs are UTC+1 =)
[12:41] <LaserJock> ypsila: I see
[12:41] <ypsila> LaserJock: but I do not make any difference between gnome and kde
[12:41] <LaserJock> Terminus: we could probably turn them into UTC couldn't we?
[12:42] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:42] <theCore> I stripped down 70% the whole thing with one command
[12:42] <LaserJock> ypsila: there are some, but they are both very usable
[12:43] <ypsila> LaserJock: I know
[12:43] <Terminus> LaserJock: yep. just something that new readers might not be aware of. =)
[12:43] <ypsila> LaserJock: the most important thing for me is: linux whatever shape
[12:43] <ypsila> oer gui
[12:43] <ypsila> -e
[12:44] <LaserJock> mhm
[12:45] <ypsila> have a good night, evenint, or whatwever time it may be at you place
[12:45] <LaserJock> have a good sleep ypsila
[12:45] <LaserJock> come back tomorrow :-)
[12:45] <ypsila> LaserJock: sure I will ;-)
[12:45] <ypsila> away
[12:45] <ypsila> now
[12:45] <tonyyarusso> Terminus: I hadn't even thought of the timestamp issue....
[12:46] <antihec> ypsila: what did you use before turning to kubuntu?
[12:46] <Terminus> tonyyarusso: noticed it because i was looking for the sessions that i missed while i was sleeping. =)
[12:49] <theCore> oh, sweet seb128 used rST syntax
[12:50] <theCore> that means I can convert it to HTML or PDF easily
[12:51] <eskilled> wtf is up niggers and niggettes me and my boy zack from linuxteens.com and also #linuxteens on freenode wanna send a giant muthfuckin shout out too my nigga's over at linuxgangsters.org, if any of you muthafucka's dont like that we can battle at #linuxteens werd is bond you know how we do
[12:51] <LjL> !ops
[12:51] <ubotu> Help! Keybuk, mdz, Amaranth, tritium, ajmitch, crimsun, ogra, CarlK, Seveas, Burgundavia, apokryphos, thoreauputic, nalioth, Madpilot, ompaul, rob, Hobbsee, imbrandon, DBO, LjL, elkbuntu, Mez or gnomefreak!
[12:51] <DBO> ubotu lies
[12:51] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about lies - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[12:51] <DBO> im no opper here
[12:51] <hybrid> get him Seveas
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> DBO: hehe
[12:52] <tonyyarusso> seb128 went the entire second hour?  geez....
[12:52] <Seveas> @reload Questios
[12:52] <Seveas> @reload Questions
[12:52] <Seveas> @dump
[12:53] <Seveas> @dump
[12:53] <Seveas> @dump
[12:55] <nalioth> well, that was interesting
[12:55] <nalioth> DBO: you're not?
[12:56] <theCore> Is it just me or seb128's presentation looks like it been with PowerPoint...
[12:56] <theCore> bullets, bullets, ... :P
[12:57] <DBO> nalioth, nope
[12:57] <DBO> -ChanServ- An access level of [10]  is required for [OP]  on #ubuntu-classroom
[12:58] <Seveas> nalioth, DBO is not a member yet
[12:58] <DBO> bingo
[12:58] <nalioth> i see.
[12:58] <theCore> nalioth, what does a K-line? block the user from FreeNode?
[12:58] <Seveas> the weenie :p
[12:58] <nalioth> theCore: a network ban, yes
[12:58] <theCore> nalioth, ah ok, thanks
[12:59] <Seveas> DBO, you're just jealous
[12:59] <nalioth> someone got caught cloning, and their clone was doing 'bad things'
[12:59] <Terminus> isn't k-line = ban on one server, g-line is ban across the network?
[12:59] <Seveas> Terminus, not on freenode
[12:59] <Terminus> oh... thanks for the info. =)
[12:59] <DBO> Seveas, you know it
[12:59] <gnomefreak> DBO: arent you an ubuntu member
[12:59] <jono> where are the meetings logs for this channel?
[12:59] <gnomefreak> !logs
[12:59] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[12:59] <Seveas> DBO, I'll just have to beat you at poker again
[12:59] <DBO> gnomefreak, no Ive been reluctant to run
[12:59] <gnomefreak> jono: ^^
[12:59] <jono> thanks
[01:00] <gnomefreak> DBO: ah
[01:00] <DBO> gnomefreak, I dont think I'd get it right now
[01:00] <ajmitch> DBO: because most of your work has been outside of ubuntu?
[01:00] <gnomefreak> are we done for tonight?
[01:00] <DBO> ajmitch, partly that
[01:00] <gnomefreak> ajmitch: until feisty :)
[01:00] <nalioth> gnomefreak: /topic
[01:00] <nalioth> jono: /topic
[01:00] <DBO> ajmitch, mostly because I look at guys like Ben Collins and realize im worthless =P
[01:00] <nalioth> gnomefreak: !logs only points to general #ubuntu channels
[01:00] <ajmitch> gnomefreak: even work upstream that is included, isn't really the direct contributions the CC look for
[01:01] <ajmitch> DBO: then compare yourself to people like me :P
[01:01] <DBO> Seveas, you can beat me at poker, but you can never win my heart! =P
[01:01] <sittisal> hey
[01:01] <gnomefreak> nalioth: so does the one in the /topic
[01:01] <jono> where is it archived?
[01:01] <jono> I only see the current feed
[01:01] <gnomefreak> jono: give me a sec im looking
[01:01] <ajmitch> hey jono
[01:02] <jono> hi ajmitch
[01:02] <sittisal> hello everybody, i have readed that today was a great session
[01:02] <dsas> http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/%23ubuntu-classroom.log
[01:02] <sittisal> but i can't find logs...
[01:02] <sittisal> doh
[01:02] <jono> ahhh its there
[01:02] <dsas> I can't see the past logs on p.u.c either.
[01:02] <jono> it just turned midnight
[01:02] <jono> sittisal: :)
[01:03] <dsas> oh, my eyes are bad.
[01:03] <sittisal> ehy jono !
[01:03] <gnomefreak> we need to ping fabbione about it. the !logs link should have it
[01:04] <jono> brb folks
[01:04] <sittisal> jono: i'm still waiting for jokosher in feisty... :-P
[01:04] <jono> sittisal: its on its way :)
[01:04] <YoussefAssad> I'm thinking that community commenting like with the GPLv3 drafts would be nice for the IRC logs
[01:05] <ausimage> jono: HI I just am reading the logs for today.
[01:05] <tonyyarusso> I'm beginning to sanify the logs by splitting them by session - first one is up, more in coming minutes.
[01:06] <jono> ausimage: cool
[01:06] <ausimage> jono I managed to bring the desktop meeting together
[01:06] <gnomefreak> jono: good job today :)
[01:06] <jono> tonyyarusso: hat would be really really useful
[01:06] <jono> ausimage: :)
[01:06] <jono> gnomefreak: thanks :)
[01:06] <jono> blog about it, tell your friends
[01:06] <ausimage> I have only Q & A and the talk
[01:06] <ajmitch> tonyyarusso: get them on the fridge, on planet, on sounder
[01:07] <ausimage> Would you like me to have it posted and linked?
[01:07] <ausimage> I think I need a proofer though
[01:07] <ajmitch> do it on the wiki or in gobby
[01:07] <theCore> *sigh*
[01:07] <theCore> I love ctrl-alt-delete ...
[01:08] <ausimage> ajmitch: how do you use gobby on the wiki?
[01:08] <tonyyarusso> ajmitch: Sounder I can do - not on planet
[01:08] <gnomefreak> i can do planet but im waiting for my hackergotchi :(\
[01:08] <ajmitch> ausimage: you paste what you're editing into gobby - when finished, paste into the wiki
[01:08] <dsas> if they're submitted to the fridge they got onto the planet presumably.
[01:08] <ausimage> K the url?
[01:09] <ajmitch> dsas: only if someone makes it happen
[01:09] <gnomefreak> brb dinner
[01:09] <ausimage> ajmitch how do I connect to the wiki with gobby?
[01:10] <ajmitch> ausimage: you don't
[01:10] <dsas> ajmitch: right, but if someone (tonyyarusso :)) submits it to the fridge when he does sounder, jono can always get to it if the other editors don't.
[01:16] <theCore> Is better to keep the logs intact, or to edit them so they look more like a web page?
[01:17] <tonyyarusso> http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/ now has them all sorted by session.
[01:17] <tonyyarusso> theCore: that's next, methinketh
[01:17] <tonyyarusso> not sure
[01:18] <tonyyarusso> theCore: This is one option - http://a7p.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/ubuntu-classroom-desktopsession-mo15-16.html
[01:23] <nalioth> theCore: just clean the joins/parts/cruft
[01:23] <theCore> nalioth, done
[01:24] <patrick_> what is the time, UTC right now please?
[01:24] <theCore> so I just paste on the wiki?
[01:24] <tonyyarusso> patrick_: date -u
[01:24] <patrick_> date -u
[01:24] <gdg> hi
[01:24] <tonyyarusso> patrick_: in a terminal
[01:24] <YoussefAssad> erm.
[01:24] <patrick_> yep ok
[01:24] <gdg> I hear nothing
[01:24] <YoussefAssad> /exec -o date -u
[01:25] <nalioth> theCore: upload it to your server and link from the w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts (see the previous entries there)
[01:25] <theCore> nalioth, ok, thanks
[01:25] <theCore> nalioth, should I keep the time stamps?
[01:27] <tonyyarusso> theCore: What all did you do?
[01:27] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I removed all the server messages
[01:28] <nalioth> theCore: up to you, i usually put a note at the top saying what TZ it is in
[01:29] <tonyyarusso> theCore: The now known as ones?  yeah, I've been getting to those too
[01:29] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I already clean everything
[01:30] <theCore> cleaned/
[01:30] <YoussefAssad> I certainly hope you two know about sed
[01:30] <theCore> YoussefAssad, well, sure
[01:30] <theCore> YoussefAssad, but I used emacs' delete-non-matching instead
[01:33] <YoussefAssad> who moderates these sessions? Perhaps they can help you log-strippers by using keywords to delimit sessions
[01:34] <nalioth> YoussefAssad: the sessions don't seem to need moderation
[01:35] <tonyyarusso> YoussefAssad: Ideally we'd get the topic changed exactly at the beginning of each, which would do the trick.  I was close today ;)
[01:35] <YoussefAssad> tonyyarusso: ah, well that solves it
[01:40] <theCore> I love using Linux "power tools"
[01:40] <theCore> I automated everything, yay!
[01:41] <jrib> yeah, like 'fortune', the most powerful tool
[01:41] <LjL> !powertweak | or like this? :P
[01:41] <ubotu> powertweak: Tool to tune system for optimal performance. In component universe, is extra. Version 0.99.5-12ubuntu1 (edgy), package size 6 kB, installed size 36 kB
[01:41] <theCore> Condense soup, not books!
[01:41] <theCore> /exec -o fortune
[01:41] <theCore> You will attract cultured and artistic people to your home.
[01:45] <theCore> all done: http://peadrop.com/openweek/
[01:46] <jrib> theCore: looks good, do those have to get copied over to the wiki?
[01:47] <ausimage> anyone that was around for the desktop meeting look over wiki.u.c/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_DesktopTeam. Give me feedback... corrections etc... I am trying write up the sessions this week. I now have packaging 101 to look at :)
[01:47] <tonyyarusso> theCore: automated everything?  do tell!
[01:47] <theCore> jrib, I will link the wiki to the page
[01:49] <nalioth> i've sorted out the format a bit on w.u.c/ClassroomTranscripts
[01:49] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I must admit, I used the split log you had
[01:49] <theCore> teamwork!
[01:50] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Whoohoo!
[01:50] <jrib> hmm would it be better to try to unify the format a bit of all the existing transcripts and drop them on their own wiki page?
[01:50] <tonyyarusso> theCore: can you do it as scriptydoohicky* ?
[01:51] <theCore> tonyyarusso, sure
[01:51] <nalioth> jrib: what are the impact possibilities on the wiki?
[01:51] <theCore> tonyyarusso, although it's pretty trivial
[01:51] <tonyyarusso> theCore: If that's the case, I can get the rest done uber quick - I have joins parts quits nickchanges ignored allready, so it's just a matter of splitting the sessions and away we go
[01:53] <jrib> nalioth: something like ClassroomTranscripts/TOPIC in terms of organization.  Did you mean something else?
[01:54] <nalioth> jrib: no, i was thinking of traffic
[01:54] <jrib> nalioth: oh, then I have no clue
[01:55] <tonyyarusso> theCore: any script usage info I need to know?
[01:55] <jrib> but we could also just make the topic for past classes a link to its transcript and do away with a seperate transcript page
[01:55] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I could wrap it up, for you if you want
[01:55] <tonyyarusso> a quick scan through the source says no
[01:55] <tonyyarusso> theCore: say what?
[01:56] <nalioth> jrib: i think the current page is less confusing, but that is just me
[01:56] <theCore> tonyyarusso, do you want me to write a script for cleaning the logs?
[01:56] <nalioth> jrib: also, if anyone has hosting issues, i can host anything
[01:56] <theCore> tonyyarusso, currently, I done everything in Emacs
[01:57] <theCore> I'm doing/
[01:57] <nalioth> and doing a fine job  :)
[01:57] <tonyyarusso> theCore: I wouldn't think you'd need to, with my /ignores - anything you had to thin out other than joins parts quits nickchanges?
[01:57] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: trolls
[01:57] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: right
[01:57] <YoussefAssad> erm.
[01:57] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: questions about "where are we eating for lunch?"
[01:57] <tonyyarusso> Can you script troll removal?
[01:57] <nalioth> and other cruft that is non related
[01:58] <jrib> s/[:troll:] //
[01:58] <YoussefAssad> Is it even right to remove trolls? Trolls are a matter of judgment.
[01:58] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Did you take out things like that?
[01:58] <nalioth> YoussefAssad: um, let's not go there and say "yes, it's right."
[01:58] <YoussefAssad> One man's troll is another man's poor english getting misconstrued
[01:58] <nalioth> YoussefAssad: no, there are some that are absolutely unmistakable in their intent
[01:59] <jrib> nalioth: hosting issues aside, we should consider having some kind of common format for all the logs
[01:59] <YoussefAssad> nalioth: hey, it's your distro and it's your community. Knock yourself out
[02:00] <tonyyarusso> He didn't....
[02:00] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I just removed everything that didn't start with <.*>
[02:00] <nalioth> jrib: txt is the most useful (can be downloaded and converted to almost any format)
[02:01] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I haven't thoroughly checked the logs yet
[02:01] <tonyyarusso> Bah, ignore me
[02:01] <jrib> nalioth: agreed
[02:01] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Ah, I see.  I grabbed the crap out of mine already.
[02:01] <tonyyarusso> (Or tried to - only one set of eyes)
[02:06] <tobias> hello all!:D
[02:06] <tobias> am I late for class?
[02:06] <tonyyarusso> tobias: very....
[02:07] <nalioth> tobias: you are early for tomorrows class :)
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> tobias: The times are UTC
[02:07] <jrib> no, your very early for the next one :)
[02:07] <tobias> :D
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> ^^ both better answers
[02:07] <tobias> when does it begin?
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[02:07] <nalioth> tobias: wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> ^^schedule
[02:07] <tobias> hehe :)
[02:07] <tobias> I dont understand utc
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: there now?
[02:07] <tobias> just how many hours aprox u think?
[02:08] <tonyyarusso> tobias: 'date -u' on a terminal will tell you, or use the page linked in the topic
[02:08] <tobias> aha
[02:08] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: in your console, type "date --utc" for the current time in UTC
[02:08] <tobias> thanks!
[02:08] <chaddy> bwahem
[02:08] <tobias> wooo
[02:08] <jrib> who wants to use the linux power tools to link all the utc times in the wuc/Classroom chart?
[02:08] <tobias> its two hours til my school day begins
[02:09] <tobias> unfortunately I will be sleeping in two hours probably
[02:09] <tobias> :( sad
[02:09] <tobias> maybe I can log it and look at it later
[02:09] <jrib> logs should be up eventually as well
[02:10] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: you know typing 3 characters + tab, is just SOOOOOO hard
[02:10] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: Yeah seriously.
[02:11] <__lynX> !logs
[02:11] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[02:11] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: (You should have seen how many times I tried to deop tonyyserver before I figured it out.)
[02:11] <nalioth> __lynX: i suspect you want wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
[02:14] <__lynX> Yup. Thanks :)
[02:23] <theCore> does it looks good enough: http://peadrop.com/openweek/
[02:24] <Terminus> theCore: looks good. =)
[02:24] <theCore> Terminus, thanks
[02:24] <nalioth> yep looks good
[02:24] <nalioth> might want to put dates and such
[02:27] <jrib> Nov. 27 seems to have to classes at the same time, is this right?
[02:27] <jrib> at 20:00utc
[02:33] <Sionide> jrib, doesn't make much odds seeing as that was 5 hours ago
[02:33] <jrib> Sionide: heh very good point :)
[02:35] <jrib> although the openweek page claims a sane time, so I'll update it
[02:37] <jrib> if someone wants to, they can quickly check that my script didn't mess up and the the utc conversion links are all accurate
[02:39] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Hrm, using * on the input for the script didn't seem happy
[02:40] <theCore> use .*
[02:41] <theCore> is it better now? http://peadrop.com/openweek/
[02:42] <StarScream>  /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[02:43] <StarScream> oops
[02:47] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Aaah.
[02:47] <tonyyarusso> theCore: How'd you do that page?  Manually?
[02:48] <theCore> tonyyarusso, yeah
[02:48] <tonyyarusso> 'k
[02:49] <theCore> should I link the my page now?
[02:52] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Prolly; I'll add mind too in a sec.
[02:52] <tonyyarusso> theCore: I'm fiddling with some cron stuff to try to automate as much as possible
[02:57] <theCore> tonyyarusso, ping me when you're done
[03:04] <tonyyarusso> theCore: .* isn't doing it for me
[03:04] <theCore> what are you using
[03:04] <theCore> ?
[03:05] <theCore> sed?
[03:05] <tonyyarusso> theCore: For the irc2html script, the file to take as input
[03:05] <theCore> tonyyarusso, ah
[03:06] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Did you do each file individually?
[03:06] <theCore> find -name '.log' | while read file; do irc2html $file; done
[03:06] <theCore> wait
[03:06] <theCore> there's a ; after do
[03:07] <bob> tomorrow i may want to attend Ask Mark Shuttleworth, how will that chatroom be designated?
[03:07] <tonyyarusso> bob: It's here, afaik
[03:07] <nalioth> yep, it'll happen right here, bob
[03:08] <chaddy> if I understand it correctly he'll be in here answering questions while we're asking questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, bob
[03:08] <bob> i was just in the #kubuntu chatroom, i never saw Brandon Holtsclaw
[03:09] <tonyyarusso> bob: That was also here
[03:09] <bob> oh
[03:10] <bob> here, as in #ubuntu-classroom?
[03:10] <tonyyarusso> correct
[03:10] <tonyyarusso> theCore: How do I modify find if I want the script to live in the parent directory of the files?
[03:11] <theCore> find openweek/ -name ...
[03:11] <nalioth> bob: you'll want to come when class is starting and hang out in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and ask your questions there
[03:11] <tonyyarusso> theCore: And should I replace irc2html with the full path to the script, or can I intelligently source it somehow?
[03:12] <theCore> it should be the full path
[03:12] <theCore> you could use a VAR though
[03:13] <theCore> or you add it in your PATH
[03:13] <theCore> CONV="path/to/irc2html"
[03:13] <theCore> or
[03:13] <theCore> PATH="path/to/:$PATH"
[03:15] <tonyyarusso> Bah, I'll just use the full one.
[03:15] <nalioth> what are we adding?
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: automation of pretty script posting, even before we get around to manually removing trolls, etc.
[03:19] <nalioth> ah
[03:21] <theCore> tonyyarusso, do you use sed for preprocessing?
[03:22] <tonyyarusso> theCore: I don't have an preprocessing other than irssi /ignores
[03:22] <nalioth> and /ignore doesn't keep it out of the logs
[03:22] <nalioth> just your display
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: Are you quite sure about that?
[03:24] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: yep
[03:24] <bob> any advice on whether to use Automatix or EasyUbuntu
[03:25] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: I seem to be successfully keeping joins parts quits out of the logs, but not nickchanges.  Must be a separate config.
[03:25] <nalioth> bob: automatix is known to botch up systems, and with every new version, continues the tradition
[03:26] <diocles> Mine are pretty clear. I used /ignore #ubuntu-classroom ALL -PUBLIC -ACTIONS
[03:26] <theCore> tonyyarusso, the trick would be to check for people that have been banned, then remove all the lines containing their nicks
[03:27] <bob> no complaints about EasyUbuntu?
[03:27] <tonyyarusso> theCore: That could do the trick
[03:27] <nalioth> bob: easyubuntu fails gracefully
[03:28] <bob> what. it's got and Undo button or something?
[03:31] <bob> what exactly does automatix typically munge, cuz i had a little trouble with the updater after i used Automatix
[03:33] <bob> OTOH, i wouldnt be able to hear any streaming audio if it weren't for automatix
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Now do you want to help me get a script to delete banned users, or should I stumble blindly around bash?
[03:34] <theCore> I could do that
[03:34] <nalioth> bob: wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats   shows you how to listen to streaming audio and anything else (and won't botch your system)
[03:35] <tonyyarusso> theCore: That would take care of things pretty well.  I added a sed that I think will grab the nickchanges, and beyond that all we have is things like "Thanks!", it might not kill us to leave those anyway, at least for a few hours until getting back from class.
[03:38] <bob> at the end of an Automatix session, there is a dialog about restoring some settings with a warning, what is that about?
[03:38] <nalioth> bob: ask in #automatix
[03:43] <bob> there is an unofficial Ubuntu Starter Guide at easylinux.info, how come you dont have it?
[03:44] <bob> or, why is it unofficial?
[03:45] <nalioth> because it's not directly provided by Ubuntu
[03:45] <bob> do you know if it's reliable?
[03:46] <tonyyarusso> theCore: I think I'm done on the wiki at least
[03:48] <nalioth> bob: it is unoffical.  if you want something reliable, help.ubuntu.com  and wiki.ubuntu.com have helped hundreds of thousands of times
[03:49] <bob> k, thanks
[04:03] <theCore> tonyyarusso, could you send me a log file that has trolls in it?
[04:03] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Umm....I'll see.
[04:05] <tonyyarusso> theCore: The full (non-sessionified) one still has them - http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/%23ubuntu-classroom.log
[04:05] <theCore> at which line?
[04:05] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Don't know the line #, but timestamp 11:04
[04:05] <theCore> or what is the troll's nick?
[04:06] <theCore> ok
[04:06] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Dannilion
[04:06] <lastnode> lol
[04:20] <tonyyarusso> theCore: How goes it?
[04:20] <theCore> tonyyarusso, almost done
[04:20] <tonyyarusso> cool
[04:38] <theCore> cool it's working
[04:38] <theCore> well almost
[04:38] <fyusy> hello
[04:38] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I got it
[04:38] <nalioth> hi fyusy
[04:39] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Choose your transfer method.  What's almost mean?
[04:39] <fyusy> I'm in Australia, sorry must of missed the training sessions
[04:39] <nalioth> fyusy: logs are going up at wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
[04:39] <theCore> tonyyarusso, it was leaving the \n
[04:40] <tomasz> I'm missing em too -- also from Australia. Timezone difference is not as mean as some of the people last night though ;)
[04:43] <fyusy> thank you
[04:43] <fyusy> I've moved from Fedora
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> theCore: so how should I get it from you?
[04:45] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I will post it on my server
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> ok
[04:48] <theCore> look good
[04:53] <theCore> hmm, I need to fix the one of my regex
[04:53] <tonyyarusso> theCore: What's your URL again?
[04:55] <theCore> tonyyarusso, http://peadrop.com/files/remove-troll.txt
[04:55] <theCore> that's what I got
[04:55] <theCore> it's not done yet
[04:56] <theCore> the banned regex go awry
[04:56] <tonyyarusso> All right.  Just ping me with changelog I guess
[04:56] <theCore> goes/
[04:59] <theCore> yay
[05:00] <theCore> tonyyarusso, it's done
[05:00] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Cool
[05:01] <tonyyarusso> Now I just have to make my crontab happy
[05:01] <theCore> tonyyarusso, be careful
[05:01] <theCore> because jono has been kicked, its strip jono
[05:01] <tonyyarusso> oh bother...
[05:01] <nalioth> trollbuster, lol
[05:01] <theCore> it strips/
[05:01] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Any way around that?
[05:02] <theCore> tonyyarusso, comment the kicked line
[05:02] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Manually ahead of time you mean?
[05:03] <theCore> ?
[05:03] <tonyyarusso> commenting the kicked line
[05:04] <tonyyarusso> theCore: So it ignores any line in the log prefaced by #?
[05:05] <theCore> tonyyarusso, oh, my mistake
[05:05] <theCore> reload
[05:06] <jcsmith> hey guys, is it possible to download the raw text irc logs or just the htmlized version in the link from the topic? i asked in the classroom-chat chan, but didn't get a response
[05:06] <tonyyarusso> theCore: And now it?  (Don't read code, sorry)
[05:06] <tonyyarusso> jcsmith: We have both - which link did you check?
[05:06] <theCore> tonyyarusso, it should be working
[05:06] <tonyyarusso> theCore: What do I have to do to not remove jono?
[05:06] <theCore> tonyyarusso, nothing
[05:07] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Amazing - how's that work?
[05:07] <theCore> tonyyarusso, did you downloaded my new version?
[05:07] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Yes
[05:07] <jcsmith> tonyyarusso: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-2006-11-27.html
[05:08] <theCore> jcsmith, http://peadrop.com/openweek
[05:08] <tonyyarusso> jcsmith: Or http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[05:08] <tonyyarusso> fabbione is htmling them?
[05:08] <theCore> tonyyarusso, yes
[05:08] <fabbione> tonyyarusso: a script does...
[05:08] <tonyyarusso> fabbione: Right.
[05:09] <jcsmith> beautiful, thanks guys
[05:09] <tonyyarusso> Scripting being what we're working on now ;)
[05:09] <tonyyarusso> theCore: How does the new version avoid removing the presenter?
[05:09] <theCore> tonyyarusso, I commented the line that remove kicked peoples
[05:10] <theCore> alternatively, I could write a white list
[05:10] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Oh, I see.  So if we get anyone kicked without a ban it will do nothing
[05:10] <theCore> tonyyarusso, yep
[05:11] <tonyyarusso> theCore: Best case would be to whitelist anybody that ever had ops, was in the access list, or was a presenter, but.....
[05:11] <tonyyarusso> Good enough for now.
[05:11] <theCore> to use it just chmod +x and rename it to something better
[05:11] <La_PaRCa> are we in session?
[05:11] <deedubb> Which functionality of Gnome is not in Xcfe?
[05:11] <theCore> I can't believe it took me an hour for that
[05:11] <nalioth> deedubb: try askin in #xubuntu
[05:12] <nalioth> theCore: at this rate, you'll be ready for class just in time  :P
[05:12] <idn> later
[05:13] <theCore> hehe, but I got real classes tomorrow
[05:13] <theCore> so, I better go to bed
[05:13] <theCore> see ya all
[05:13] <nalioth> night, theCore
[05:14] <nalioth> muchas gracias
[05:14] <tonyyarusso> Good night theCore, thanks
[05:32] <atoponce> so, i think this was fairly successful...
[05:38] <Pichucos> hi all :)
[05:41] <x-Na> morning
[05:43] <Pichucos> hehe i have some question
[05:43] <Pichucos> 1 any speak spanish?
[05:43] <tonyyarusso> holy shamoly this script is verbose when it finally runs
[05:46] <tonyyarusso> theCore_: Forgot a * in the find -name pattern it seems
[05:50] <nalioth> Pichucos: how can we help you?
[09:11] <marky> Hi
[09:22] <goray123> ls
[10:24] <macchia> hello
[10:25] <Seveas> hi macchia
[11:32] <v4m21> where is mark shuttleworth ?
[12:09] <arjun> debarshi, Im here
[12:09] <snail> arjun: welcome
[12:10] <arjun> snail, hi!
[12:10] <debarshi> snail: Hi.
[12:10] <arjun> snail, frankly, I dont know why im here. yet.
[12:10] <arjun> :
[12:10] <arjun> :)
[12:10] <snail> arjun: you're here to learn about ubuntu?
[12:11] <debarshi> arjun: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[12:11] <arjun> snail, sure!
[12:11] <arjun> debarshi, lemme check that.
[12:13] <rakesh> join #glug-nith
[12:14] <arjun> its about 11:00 UTC, right?
[12:15] <serzholino> 11:16:27
[12:15] <arjun> serzholino, hmm.. 15 minutes off the mark. ;)
[12:19] <arjun> snail, i'll hold on till 2030 IST (= 1500 UTC)
[12:31] <Terminus> hmmm... class starts in 3.5 hours right?
[12:34] <walcky> Terminus : 2.5 hours
[12:35] <Terminus> i thought it 1500 UTC?
[12:35] <Terminus> s/it/it starts/
[12:36] <fabbione> 3.5 hours
[12:36] <fabbione> see /topic
[12:40] <Terminus> meh... i'm probably gonna be asleep when class starts anyway.
[12:43] <neuro_> we could slap you
[12:44] <davmor2> neuro_ cold water is more effective
[12:45] <neuro_> slapping is more fun
[12:46] <ulinskie> hey Terminus
[12:46] <davmor2> water lasts longer an is more embarrassing if they have to go out :)
[12:46] <Terminus> heya ulinskie =)
[12:47] <Terminus> ulinskie: i feel sleepy already. i think i'm just gonna log the stuff here. but theCore is also fixing up the logs.
[12:48] <Terminus> brb. dinner time. =)
[12:55] <GSF> hello
[12:55] <GSF> does anyone have logs in plaintext format of yesterday?
[12:57] <davmor2> !logs
[12:57] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[12:57] <elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts as well
[12:58] <GSF> those are in HTML
[12:59] <fabbione> GSF: i might enable plain text sometimes next week.. it's just very low priority for me
[12:59] <fabbione> GSF: that will include also the backlog..
[12:59] <fabbione> not just from...
[01:01] <GSF> alright.
[01:01] <GSF> there's so many people here, I'm wondering if anyone logged yesterday's lectures
[01:02] <Seveas> !logs
[01:02] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[01:02] <GSF> ..
[01:02] <Seveas> ;)
[01:02] <fabbione> Seveas: read above
[01:04] <Seveas> GSF, seveas.ubuntulinux.nl/~dennis/ubuntu-classroom.log
[01:04] <Seveas> (aothough that'sfar more than just yesterday)
[01:05] <GSF> thanks a bunch :)
[01:05] <Terminus> Seveas: what about theCore's transcripts? =)
[01:05] <Seveas> Terminus, I don't know where those are :)
[01:05] <Terminus> Seveas: i have the url. i'll pm them to you.
[01:06] <Terminus> dunno if he would appreciate the load on his server if i announce it. =D
[01:06] <Seveas> heh
[01:55] <whowe> who
[01:55] <whowe> ?
[02:09] <cayenne> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[02:10] <cayenne> quit
[02:19] <whowe> Anyone else here having errors trying to upload your pgp key?
[02:21] <domenico> :-D
[02:25] <MidNight_SunRay> whowe, i have errors everywhere when i try to sign a file.. :D
[02:28] <whowe> I just can't get my keys to upload, says keyserver error
[03:11] <sbaush> is there nobody?
[03:13] <tonyyarusso> sbaush: There's folks around, still about 45 minutes before things get going.
[03:13] <atoponce> there is anybody
[03:13] <apokryphos> !seen anybody
[03:13] <ubotu> I haven't seen anybody recently
[03:13] <sbaush> thanks
[03:13] <tonyyarusso> Oh ubotu..
[03:14] <tonyyarusso> Time for some tests.
[03:15] <cayenne> hi folks, newbie here!
[03:15] <_MMA_> Hello cayenne.
[03:16] <apokryphos> welcome, cayenne
[03:16] <tonyyarusso> Hey folks - throw some sample questions in -chat to test the bot
[03:17] <nooone> Hello.
[03:17] <Jucato> tonyyarusso: in what format? QUESTION: <question>?
[03:17] <Nop> does it work ?
[03:17] <gnomefreak> yes
[03:17] <gnomefreak> Jucato: yes
[03:17] <Nop> cool
[03:17] <tonyyarusso> Jucato: Yep, just preface anything w/ Question:, but in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[03:17] <Jucato> hi gnomefreak :)
[03:17] <gnomefreak> hi Jucato
[03:17] <sbaush> QUESTION: like this?
[03:17] <nooone> QUESTION: Why in Ubuntu are so many bugs and they are not going to be removed?
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> Okay, now, without ops:
[03:18] <cayenne> I'm waiting for the calls session. I've not used this (Xchat) before. Will the class be presented as text - or is there an audio option somewhere?
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:18] <gnomefreak> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat people
[03:18] <Jucato> sbaush, nooone, in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> Good, no response.
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:18] <Ubugtu> Seveas asked: test!
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:18] <Ubugtu> andrew asked: How's the weather?
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> Kinda rainy andrew ;)
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:18] <Ubugtu> _MMA_ asked: Why is Ubuntu so awesome?
[03:18] <Jucato> ah cool
[03:19] <_MMA_> :)
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> _MMA_: Because of the awesome community jono will tell us about _MMA_
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> One more-
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:19] <Ubugtu> Nop asked: sample question?
[03:19] <cayenne> Sunny n warm. Too warm for Nov in UK
[03:19] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: easy way to remove/list questions?
[03:19] <andrew> do a few more
[03:19] <andrew> clear the que!
[03:19] <Nop> Ubugtu, jawohl! 8)
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: I need to see how one part of that works - a sec
[03:20] <jono> how are we dealing with questions then?
[03:20] <Pavka[LT] > ((((:
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> jono: Watch this:
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:20] <Ubugtu> juliux asked: Is the bot working?
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:20] <Ubugtu> GSF asked: what up?
[03:21] <juliux> tonyyarusso, cool! great work;)
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> juliux: Not my work - thank Seveas
[03:21] <juliux> tonyyarusso, ok
[03:21] <juliux> thanks Seveas ;)
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> @dump
[03:21] <Jucato> Seveas is the bot master :)
[03:22] <tonyyarusso> Ooooh
[03:22] <gnomefreak> @next
[03:22] <Ubugtu> irvin asked: how long will it take to grow me a beard like jono?
[03:22] <gnomefreak> cool
[03:22] <gnomefreak> it works
[03:22] <Jucato> lol
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> @dump
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> god
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> *good
[03:23] <lotusleaf> @jeffk Seveas fetch me a pretty pony
[03:23] <Ubugtu> SEVEAS FETCH ME A PRETTY PONY
[03:24] <tomasss> @jeffk emmm?
[03:24] <Ubugtu> emmm? ahhahhahhahhlol!~!~
[03:24] <Seveas> hmm wth
[03:24] <tomasss> "ahhahhahhahhlol!~!~" - wtf? (((:
[03:24] <Seveas> @unload Filter
[03:24] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: What was that?
[03:25] <tonyyarusso> cleared...
[03:25] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:25] <Ubugtu> andrew asked: How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
[03:26] <tonyyarusso> Or not
[03:26] <tonyyarusso> @clear
[03:26] <tomasss> @next
[03:26] <zul> hmm?
[03:26] <tomasss> ?
[03:26] <tonyyarusso> @next
[03:26] <Ubugtu> No more questions
[03:26] <tonyyarusso> okay
[03:29] <ubulinu> Welcome everybody! Yeah... already 268 members here...
[03:29] <Lesley> Hi all
[03:30] <lotusleaf> "someone's in my fruit cellar, someone with a fresh soul"
[03:30] <willi> +i
[03:30] <willi> ^X
[03:34] <ypsila> good afternoon
[03:35] <kalon33> Hello ubulinu !
[03:35] <tomasss> ypsila, good evening.
[03:36] <apex`> y0 niggaz ;-)
[03:36] <tonyyarusso> apex`: Watch the language please.
[03:36] <lotusleaf> *<:O) I want an oompa loompa!
[03:37] <apokryphos> ubotu: language
[03:37] <apex`> mhm :/
[03:37] <ubotu> Please watch your language and keep this channel family friendly.
[03:46] <jono> billycina, woo!
[03:47] <cayenne>  /join #ubuntu-uk
[03:49] <jono> :P
[03:50] <GazzaK> weeeeeeeee, splat
[03:50] <gnomefreak> !openweek
[03:50] <ubotu> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[03:50] <popey>   \o/
[03:50] <popey>  ( ).oO( Parp! )
[03:50] <popey>  |'|
[03:50] <popey>  eek!
[03:51] <marky> Hi
[03:51] <gnomefreak> !no openweek is Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[03:51] <ubotu> I'll remember that, gnomefreak
[03:52] <LjL> !no openweek is <reply> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[03:52] <ubotu> I'll remember that, LjL
[03:52] <loudspeake1> cool
[03:53] <n8k99> ooh can anyone program responses or just channel gods?
[03:53] <x-Na> evening
[03:53] <apokryphos> n8k99: only bot editors. For everyone else the suggestion is posted to us
[03:53] <apokryphos> then we accept or deny it
[03:54] <urbnsr_> .
[03:54] <LjL> or argue for 30 minutes about whether it should be accepted or denied
[03:54] <Seveas> heh
[03:54] <n8k99> i see, that's still pretty neat
[03:54] <n8k99> LjL everybody needs a cause
[03:55] <Seeker`> lo popey
[03:55] <popey> moo
[03:56] <neuro_> i have a feeling it's going to get busy :)
[03:56] <popey> ditto for irssi
[03:56] <rrittenhouse> gee i wish gaim had that feature ;)
[03:56] <johny900> I want Beryl
[03:56] <daxelrod> rrittenhouse: Gaim can turn off join/leave messages for all chats.
[03:56] <marky> says Hi
[03:57] <kalon33> yes rrittenhouse it's a bit tiring to see all that !:p
[03:57] <davmor2> johny900 well ask nicely
[03:57] <Cillian> Damn irssi ignore syntax is messed up...
[03:57] <jono> right
[03:57] <jono> I think we are nearly there
[03:57] <jono> a few more mins
[03:58] <daxelrod> rrittenhouse: The plugin "Extended Prefs" will do it. http://gaim.sourceforge.net/plugins.php
[03:58] <jono> if you are new to the Ubuntu Open Week - please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules for the simple rules
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> Okay - that's everyone's cue to get your last bits of silliness out - as soon as we hit 1500 we're going to need it fairly quiet and orderly-like so he can talk.  :)
[03:58] <jono> hehe
[03:58] <jono> ORDER!
[03:58] <jono> :P
[03:59] <jono> daxelrod, not in public please :P
[03:59] <Seveas> jono, I'll have the chicken salad
[03:59] <lotusleaf> "don't blame me, I voted Nader" ok that's good
[03:59] <popey> \o/
[03:59] <jono> Seveas, shut your trap
[03:59] <jono> :)
[03:59] <lotusleaf> last word
[03:59] <popey> Father!?
[03:59] <neuro_> I am your.
[03:59] <atoponce> i can hardly hear myself think
[03:59] <Cillian> :o
[04:00] <neuro_> +m it baby!
[04:00] <Cillian> neuro_++
[04:00] <jono> right lets go
[04:00] <Seveas> err
[04:00] <jono> Seveas, don't moderate the room
[04:00] <jono> we will be fine
[04:00] <popey> Mwahahahahahahahaaa
[04:00] <neuro_> Seveas == muppet
[04:00] <neuro_> jono, continue
[04:00] <neuro_> :)
[04:01] <jono> as usual folks, ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix it with QUESTION so I can pick it out
[04:01] <Cillian>  /ignore #ubuntuclassroom QUITS
[04:01] <neuro_> Cillian: shhh
[04:01] <jono> hi all, welcome to the session
[04:01] <jono> the aim of this session is to talk about how exactly someone becomes a 'member' in the Ubuntu community - this will involve a discussion of what membership involves, the process of becoming a member, and other things to think about
[04:01] <popey>  /ignore Cillian
[04:01] <eboogie> hey jono.  glad to "meet" you
[04:01] <jono> I will talk for a while with the main tuition, and then I will open the session up to Q+A as that is where I think much of the real value in these sessions comes from
[04:01] <jono> eboogie, :)
[04:02] <jono> OK, lets go
[04:02] <jono> with any large free software project, it is always difficult to identify those contributors who are very good and those who are not so good - this is not about technical prowess, but about reliable, sustained contributions to the project in whatever team - art, marketing, packaging, MOTU etc
[04:02] <jono> to help try and disguinish this, we have the concept of 'ubuntu members'
[04:02] <jono> an ubuntu member is someone who has made a "sustained and substantial contribution" to the project, and we like to identify who these users are so we can provide these members with additional access to resources and have confidence in a set of established contributors
[04:03] <jono> ANYONE is welcome to be an ubuntu member - you don't need to work for Canonical, you don't need to be hugely technical, and you don't need to call your first-born child 'jono'
[04:03] <eboogie> nice...
[04:03] <jono> although the last bit would be cool :)
[04:03] <Alex_Palex> lol
[04:03] <n8k99> hmm...
[04:03] <Nop> ))
[04:03] <popey> *shudder*
[04:03] <jono> so the first question is, do you meet the criteria for a member? do you believe you have made enough a contribution to Ubuntu that it could be seen as a substantial and sustained contribution?
[04:04] <n8k99> are we supposed to answer that here?
[04:04] <gnomefreak> n8k99: no
 QUESTION: How do you differentiate between contribution to ubuntu and contribution to upstream packages
[04:04] <gnomefreak> good question
[04:05] <jono> Casanova, contribution to ubuntu is contributing to direct components of the ubuntu system (such as marketing, art, translations, docs) or packaging upstream applications for ubuntu
[04:05] <Casanova> so fixing bugs in launchpad doesnt count?
[04:05] <jsgotangco> it does
[04:05] <gnomefreak> Casanova: it does
[04:05] <jono> for those who don't know what upstream is - upstream are the applications developed by the people who make the apps - gimp, xchat, firefox, openoffice are all upstread
[04:05] <jono> Casanova, yes it does
[04:05] <jono> Casanova, basically, if you contribute to making ubuntu itself better, you are an ubuntu contributor
[04:06] <jono> if you write fixes for openoffice that live upstream, then you are part of their project
[04:06] <n8k99> does representing/speaking about Ubuntu at festivals count?
[04:06] <Casanova> hehe just to be nit picky.. If i contribute to the main line direct it doesnt count. If i contribute through launchpad it does?
[04:06] <jsgotangco> it does
[04:06] <jono> ok I am gonna get through my notes and then hit the questions
[04:06] <jsgotangco> its called advocacy
[04:06] <Seveas> n8k99, questions in -chat please
[04:06] <jono> you can judge this by determining (a) the amount of time you have spent with the project (naturally six months with the project is a lot more 'sustained' than six minutes) and (b) how much you have contributed to the project
[04:07] <gnomefreak> ask the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and append them with QUESTION: please
[04:07] <jono> thanks gnomefreak
[04:07] <jono> when figuring out (b), think about what you have done - have you contributed packages, documented things, translated, performed advocacy, built up teams, performed marketing, helped support users? if you have contributed a lot of time to bettered ubuntu it all helps
[04:07] <SimonAnibal> prepend
[04:07] <gnomefreak> prepend*
[04:07] <jono> if you feel you have performed this "sustained and substantial contribution", becoming an ubuntu member provides access to additional privileges such as an ubuntu.com email address, IRC cloaks, addition to planet ubuntu and importantly identifies you as a key member of the community
[04:08] <jono> if you want to become a member, you need to go before the Community Council (CC) where they will vote on your application for membership
[04:08] <jono> the CC regularly hold IRC meetings where they decide on parts of the community, including ubuntu membership
[04:08] <jono> to do this we recommend that you first prepare a wiki page on wiki.ubuntu.com with a list of your contributions to the ubuntu project - we recommend you reference any online resources such as mailing list archvies, websites that back up this evidence
[04:08] <amachu> hi guys
[04:08] <Seveas> amachu, shhhhhh
[04:09] <jono> this page name should be your name with no spaces and capital letters for the words - so mine would be wiki.ubuntu.com/JonoBacon
[04:09] <jono> it is important you spend some time getting this page in shape - make sure it is clear, lists all of the key contributions, and we would also recommend having a section called "Future Work" that outlines things you plan on doing
[04:09] <Chris____> I am beginning college in January as a Computer Science major. Would contributing to the project be possible after I have a few programming classes?
[04:10] <jono> also list on the page where you can be contacted (email, IRC), which mailing lists you read and which IRC channels you frequent in
[04:10] <Seveas> Chris____, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:10] <jono> when the page is ready, head to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda and add your name to the agenda - this will mark you down as wanted to be considered for membership at the next CC meeting
[04:10] <jono> with you added to the CC agenda, it is important you turn up to the CC meeting
[04:11] <Seveas> jono: that procedure is being changed, remember :)
[04:11] <jono> Seveas, yep, but not yet :P
[04:11] <jono> in that meeting, summarise the work you have done and highlight why you believe you should be considered for membership
[04:12] <jono> it is also recommended that you bring along some people to support your case - people you have worked alongside in the community, people who can demonstrate your work - well respected community members are a wise choice here
[04:12] <jono> (oh and a quick note, I get daily requests to support someone for membership in the CC meeting, I can;t always do it unfortunatly due to my schedule)(
[04:12] <Seveas> @dump
[04:13] <jono> when you are at the CC and have put your case foward, the members of the CC will decide upon it
[04:13] <jono> if you are unsuccessful they will give you the reason why, and it is recommended you go away and try to fix the things they mention
[04:14] <jono> if you are successful you will be added to the ubuntu members list in Launchpad and can officially be smug in front of your friends
[04:14] <jonh_wendell> :)
[04:14] <jono> that is the approximate process for becoming a member
[04:14] <jono> now, I want to add some tips:
[04:15] <jono>  * REALLY, REALLY don't put yourself forward for membership unless you have contributed a substantial amount to Ubuntu - if you are unsure if you have, ask an existing member or ask in #ubuntu-devel or your team
[04:15] <jono>  * you really should attend the CC meeting, non-attendance is not a good thing in your favour - attend the meeting where you are considered
[04:16] <jono> * ubuntu membership is not a cast iron process, and we are flexible in how it works-  we are keen to identify people who are good, reliable and will stick around - sometimes this is abundantly clear, sometimes less so
[04:17] <jono> * get plenty of feedback from existing ubuntu members before you add yourself to the CC agenda to be considered - have people look over the wiki page for yourself and check if anything is missing
[04:17] <jono> right, gonna open it up to Q+A  - let me go through some of the existing questions first
[04:17] <Seveas> jono, type @dump in here
[04:17] <jono> what does that do?
[04:17] <Seveas> that'll make ubugtu send you all the questions
[04:17] <jono> ahhh cool
[04:17] <Seveas> (nice summary!)
[04:17] <jono> @dump
[04:18] <gnomefreak> lol
[04:18] <pointwood> @dump
[04:18] <apokryphos> only for ops
[04:18] <pointwood> oh :)
[04:18] <abhish3k> how to change root passward
[04:18] <jono> jees, it dumps it in my main window
[04:18] <apokryphos> abhish3k: please head to #ubuntu for support
[04:18] <gnomefreak> @dump
[04:18] <Seveas> @disable dump
[04:18] <jono> stop it! :)
[04:18] <Seveas> (please don't abuse it, you'll make ubugtu flood)
[04:18] <jono> ok, not doing that again
[04:18] <Seveas> well, there we go
[04:18] <LjL> too little, too late
[04:18] <jono>  QUESTION: is advocation enough, or should i be doing more?
[04:19] <gnomefreak> it only dumps once
 QUESTION: is advocation enough, or should i be doing more?
[04:19] <jono> advocacy is a perfectly legitimate form of contribution, if do a lot of it and it is good, do apply
 QUESTION: is there a requirement to participate in the GPG web of trust, as there is for debian?
[04:19] <Seveas> jono, may I add something?
[04:19] <jono> Seveas, go on
[04:20] <Seveas> advocacy is fine, but make sure it's traceable
[04:20] <jono> snail, we do ask for a GPG key, but it is mainly used for signing packages
[04:20] <gnomefreak> and the coc
 QUESTION: How much counts as significant?
[04:20] <Seveas> we have one unfortunate member candidate who is advocating a lot, but it's all undocumented/untracable
[04:20] <jono> Cillian, good question - and there is no single answer - we are looking for contributions beyond a quick fling interest with ubuntu that are sustained over a period of time
[04:21] <gnomonic> REQUEST: could you take one question at a time?
[04:21] <gnomefreak> gnomonic: we are
[04:21] <jono> Cillian, we are keen to identify people who have a prolonged interest in the project
 QUESTION: It's obviously a discussion all in itself, but how easy is it to get into packaging for Ubuntu?  ISTR Debian is quite strict about how it admits packagers, for example.
[04:22] <jono> neuro_, fairly simple, not sure how it compares to Debian - I recommend joining the Packaging 101 and MOTU sessions this week
[04:22] <popey> smooth
[04:22] <whowe> QUESTION: What if we are starting a FOSS consulting company that's main platform in Ubuntu, would that count?
 QUESTION : Do you take care of the karma to do this appreciation ?
[04:22] <Seveas> whowe, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:22] <gnomefreak> whowe: ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[04:22] <Amaranth> neuro_: Contribute some packages, get member status, apply for MOTU status, then you can upload packages on your own
[04:22] <jono> kalon33, do you mean, do we consider karma when evaluating a user?
[04:23] <kalon33> yes, Is it a part of your evaluation, and what part ?
[04:23] <jono> I think it may be considered, I am not on the CC, so I am not sure - but experience is the main thing
 QUESTION: Can we vote/put forward people for membership, ie like a reference?
[04:24] <Seveas> (jono: it's looked at as an activity measure)
[04:24] <jono> Seveas, sure, but it is an inexact science
[04:24] <jono> GazzaK, the person you recommend needs to put themselves forward for membership - you should encourage them to do so, and support them in their CC meeting
 QUESTION: jono isnt the wiki on the person a must not really recommended?
[04:25] <jono> gnomefreak, sorry yes, you need to provide a wiki page for your membership application
 QUESTION: What do you mean by "name" for the wiki page? Full name? Username?
[04:25] <gnomefreak> jono: that was more for them ;)
[04:25] <azeem> w 84
[04:25] <jono> daxelrod, like wiki.ubuntu.com/JonoBacon for me or wiki.ubuntu.com/StupidIdiot for Seveas :P
[04:25] <gnomefreak> lol
 QUESTION: shit, so much bureaucracy! if i have an upstream application of mine -- how can i add it to ubuntu repository in few minutes ?
[04:26] <Seveas> jono, that's MisterStupidIdiot for you!
[04:26] <gnomefreak> few minutes :(
[04:27] <jono> Nop, hehe, its not bureaucracy as you don;t have to be a member, and although it could be easier (which we are working on)  its a fairly simple process - write an application and show up to the CC meeting - as for upstream app in Ubuntu, talk to the packagers
 QUESTION: when will happen next CC?
[04:27] <jono> jonh_wendell, we are hoping to have one this week or next week - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda for the next date
[04:27] <jono> CC meetings are also added to the fridge calendar
 QUESTION: In what way is the procedure for becoming an ubuntu member changing?
[04:27] <Seveas> or you can look in the topic of #ubuntu-meeting
[04:28] <apokryphos> just /cs info #ubuntu-meeting
[04:28] <jono> popey, we are looking at ways to scale up the process - right now the CC is bottlenecking with requests - we are considering team councils (such as a forums or kubuntu council) having the power to approve ubuntu membership
[04:28] <jono> this will help the process scale
[04:28] <jono> nothing is cast in stone yet
[04:29] <popey> ok, any timescale on when that will happen?
[04:29] <jono> popey, no idea
[04:29] <jono> popey, when its ready :)
 QUESTION: does Ubuntu Membership also cover Kubuntu and Xubuntu? Or is there a separate Kubuntu Membership, separate CC, and a separate process? (there's a kubuntu-members team in Launchpad)
[04:29] <popey> i.e. can we sneak under the radar before it gets hard to be a member ;)
[04:29] <Seveas> popey, it will get easier, not harder
[04:29] <Amaranth> popey: The idea is to make it easier
[04:29] <jono> popey, it won't get harder - it will just get more scalable
[04:29] <popey> ok, thanks guys
[04:29] <jono> Seveas, it won't be easier to be a member, it will be easier to get your application looked at
 QUESTION: does Ubuntu Membership also cover Kubuntu and Xubuntu? Or is there a separate Kubuntu Membership, separate CC, and a separate process? (there's a kubuntu-members team in Launchpad)
[04:30] <jono> Jucato, good question, I am not 100% sure, I think Ubuntu membership is for all of us
 QUESTION: What proportion of people fail to get ubuntu membership?
[04:30] <jono> popey, most people get membership
[04:30] <gnomefreak> jono: may i?
[04:30] <jono> gnomefreak, sure
[04:30] <popey> thanks
[04:30] <Chris____> QUESTION: would people who contributed to the Linux kernel, not neccesarily Ubuntu, be good people to support your application?
[04:31] <Amaranth> Jucato: Ubuntu membership covers every part of Ubuntu. That includes Kubuntu, Xubuntu, the forums, etc.
[04:31] <Seveas> Chris____, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat!
[04:31] <jono> Amaranth, ahh thats what I figured, cool :)
 QUESTION: have i missed the "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session?
[04:31] <apokryphos> Kubuntu can choose their own members
[04:31] <Jucato> um so what is the kubuntu-members team for?
[04:31] <jono> laharrin_, nope this is it, want me to draw a diagram? :P
[04:31] <apokryphos> (which are automatically ubuntu members)
[04:31] <juliux> edubuntu also;)
[04:31] <Chris____> Seveas, I see several other people asking question!
[04:31] <gnomefreak> juliux: ubuntu-membership is ubuntu and kubuntu xubuntu related. as a member of one you have say in all meetings (not sure about edubuntu) but to get email for kubuntu.org you have to apply for kubuntu memebership as well
[04:31] <gnomefreak> oops
[04:31] <gnomefreak> Jucato: that was yours
[04:32] <Seveas> Chris____, look better and don't interrupt the chat please
[04:32] <Jucato> :)
[04:32] <jono> Chris____, take it to #ubuntu-classroom-chat!!
[04:32] <apokryphos> it's just easier for a Kubuntu council to see activity in Kubuntu, and hence make decisions on members when their work involves Kubuntu
 QUESTION: well then, am i in the right place?
[04:32] <jono> laharrin_, yes
 QUESTION: have I missed laharrin_ asing if he missed the "Becoming an Ubuntu Member" session?
[04:32] <jono> no
[04:32] <jono> :P
[04:32] <Amaranth> Jucato: We're setting up subcouncils for the different groups to reduce the bottleneck on the Community Council. Becoming a member of one of those groups automatically makes you an Ubuntu member.
 QUESTION: What privileges would becoming an Ubuntu Member bring, besides the ones you mentioned - email, cloak, Planet Ubuntu access? I mean privileges that directly impact your ability to contribute, rather than "prestige" privileges.
[04:32] <gnomefreak> Amaranth: we are? cool ;)
[04:33] <popey> :)
[04:33] <looksaus> damn, I really have to go...
[04:33] <looksaus> sorry folks
[04:33] <looksaus> hope we get a summary posted to the locoteams mailing list
[04:33] <nalioth> looksaus: wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
[04:33] <jono> LjL, there are no major perks for contribution - just these additional benefits, and for packagers being an Ubuntu Member *may* provide access to Personal Package Archives but I don't know about it
[04:33] <jono> looksaus, shhh!
[04:34] <looksaus> :)
 QUESTION: Can regular users attend the CC sessions? Or is this reserved?
[04:34] <jono> looksaus, :)
[04:34] <jono> Yawner, all are welcome to CC sessions :)
[04:34] <Yawner> ta :)
 QUESTION: Could you tell us how we can contribute?
[04:34] <apokryphos> ubotu: contribute
[04:34] <ubotu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[04:34] <jono> rrittenhouse, there are lots of ways of contributing, look at your skills and think of what you would like to do, and then join one of the teams
[04:35] <jono> rrittenhouse, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[04:35] <apokryphos> as the page notes: artwork, wiki-editing, documentation, packaging, irc support etc
[04:35] <gnomefreak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto will also help
[04:35] <jono> could people quieten down a little bit
[04:35] <jono> I want to get through these fairly quickly :)
[04:36] <jono> so everyone gets their question answered - make comments in -chat :)
[04:36] <jono> thanks
 QUESTION: whom does the Community Council consist of? how is it formed?
[04:36] <jono> antihec, it consists of core community members who are nominated and voted on - right now it consists of Benjamin Hill, Mark Shuttleworth, Colin Watson, and James Troup
 QUESTION: does sustained user support in the forums and/or IRC also count as substantial?
[04:37] <jono> Jucato, sure, its a valid contribution to the communitu :)
[04:37] <jono> community
 QUESTION: in your opinion jono, which projects / packages / teams are most in need of entry level members with a few programming skills? where can we find these projects / packages / teams? is there a list someplace?
[04:38] <popey> Jokosher!
[04:38] <neuro_> lol
[04:38] <jono> snail, I think we REALLY need people to help with the Bug Squad - and Simon Law is providing sessions on the bug squad this week - the team deal with categorising and organising bug reports
[04:38] <jono> also marketing and docs
 QUESTION: Can you bring along people to the CC that aren't already members to support your application?
[04:39] <jono> Seeker`, sure - everyone is welcome :)
 QUESTION: does the CC have a wiki page? if yes, which one is it?
[04:39] <jono> Panzerboy, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
 QUESTION: would people who contributed to the Linux kernel, not neccesarily Ubuntu, be good people to support your application?
[04:40] <jono> Chris____, we really look for people in the Ubuntu community to support your application, but do bring people over who can support your technical expertise
 QUESTION: do ubuntu membership expire? if yes, what's the process involved in getting it back?
[04:40] <whowe> QUESTION:  what room do we ask questions in?
[04:40] <Seveas> whowe, #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:40] <Seeker`> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:40] <jono> irvin, right now, I don't think it does - there was some discussion of it at UDS
[04:40] <gnomefreak> jono: 2 years last i heard
 QUESTION: What is LoCo distribution point?
[04:40] <Seveas> jono, they do -- after 2 years
[04:40] <jono> amachu, eh?
[04:41] <ailean> all memberships do have expiry dates
[04:41] <jono> gnomefreak, Seveas ahhh ok
[04:41] <ailean> even mark's
 QUESTION: can a respected member tell me how i am currently doing, and what i could do to improve?
[04:41] <jono> atoponce, sure, and we always recommend that community members help other community members with their application process
[04:41] <jono> feedback is key here :)
 QUESTION: Does answering questions on forums, irc etc add towards membership
[04:42] <jono> davmor2, yes, it is valid contribution to our communityu
 QUESTION:  Ok, what are the guidelines for the documentation?
[04:42] <jono> whowe, what do you mean?
 The documentation for external marketing and advocacy?  How do they want it documented?
[04:43] <jono> whadar, you would need to speak to those teams about thaty
[04:43] <jono> docs is critical in the community and different teams approach it in different ways
 QUESTION: Do you get to choose your @ubuntu.com email address? Can I have jono_is_my_dad@ubuntu.com?
[04:44] <gnomefreak> lol
[04:44] <juliux> lol
[04:44] <jono> popey, you can choose, although we recommend serious terms - although I would love to jono_is_a_rock_god@ubuntu.com
[04:44] <popey> ahhahaha
[04:44] <popey> and back on planet earth...
[04:44] <gnomefreak> i think it goes on your LP name
[04:44] <jono> ok all questions done so far
[04:44] <jono> any other burning questions to go to -chat?
[04:45] <thiebaude> thanks jono
[04:45] <pygi> Jono: burning exactly :)
[04:45] <antihec> thank you, jono :-)
[04:45] <jono> :)
[04:45] <pygi> jono: as in cdrecording :P
[04:45] <jono> just a few final words
[04:45] <neuro_> thanks jono
[04:45] <Panzerboy> thanks jono
[04:45] <jono> community is critical to ubuntu
[04:45] <jono> it is the glue that holds us all together
[04:45] <gnomefreak> jono: another great session thank you :)
[04:45] <jono> part of the reason we have this membership process is to identify good people
[04:45] <popey> yeah, great session.
[04:46] <jono> traditionally in free software it is a case of licking your finger and putting it in the wind
[04:46] <vdepizzol> what time is now in UTC?
[04:46] <rulus> thanks for the great session Jono!
[04:46] <ailean> 1546
[04:46] <jono> part of my job is to identify good people, but we also want to have processes that make sense to identify good people too
[04:46] <gnomefreak> popey is pronounced pop i  right?
[04:46] <pygi> jono, you have a question ;)
[04:46] <lumpki> 15:46 UTC
[04:46] <popey> OI!
[04:46] <vdepizzol> thank's :)
[04:46] <jono> personally, I hate beurocracy and I am always concious of it when we decide on governance, so don't worry to much about it
[04:46] <neuro_> jono: \o/
 QUESTION: are there any sysadmin tasks / roles available for community members, as opposed to Canonical staff?
[04:47] <pygi> heh
[04:47] <neuro_> itym, bureaucracy
[04:47] <Yawner> thanks again Jono
[04:47] <Amaranth> jono: I think we should have to go through 6 layers of management to get membership approval. Of course you _have_ to get bounced between the layers at least a dozen times to be worth it. ;)
[04:47] <jono> neuro_, good question, I would speak to the sysadmin team - its fairly centrally  managed here by our IS team, but there are some thing which need doing, such as LoCo related stuff
[04:47] <neuro_> cool
[04:47] <popey>  \o/ .oO( I am Jono! )
[04:47] <popey>  (o) .oO( I am popey! )
[04:47] <popey>  |'|
[04:48] <jono> Amaranth, hehe
[04:48] <neuro_> i was thinking along the lines of the fedora-admin crew, who aren't all red hat staff.
 QUESTION: There was a question about how programmers not currently in open source can get started? Like people at University that study programming. Not sure I saw an answer to that...
[04:48] <neuro_> thanks again, o semi-bearded one
[04:48] <popey>  /win 44
[04:48] <jono> _jmk_, just write code, break it, fix it and learn - Ubuntu is a great platform for learning to code - Python and GTK are your friends
[04:48] <neuro_> jono: exactly what i would have said in your shoes
[04:49] <bryan4134> .
[04:49] <neuro_> although s/Python and GTK/Perl/g
[04:49] <jono> see http://learningpython.com/
[04:49] <neuro_> :>
 QUESTION: does the possibility of employment by Canonical exist through this process?
[04:49] <Amaranth> _jmk_: The easiest answer to that is to simply find something interesting, write some code (or a patch for an existing project), and go from there.
[04:49] <jono> ailean, Canonical hire good people who prove themselves - if you prove to be a good person for Ubuntu, you will be noticed - we cannot promise anything, but we look for good people - we also sponsor good people to come to summits and such
[04:50] <ailean> k thanks
[04:50] <jono> just before we finish up
[04:50] <jono> I just want to make a few things clear
[04:51] <jono> my role at Canonical and as part of the community is to make our community kick arse - and I am always keen to get good solid feedback
[04:51] <jono> I want to hear about the great things you folks are doing, and I also want to hear about the problems you see
[04:51] <jono> I cannot guarantee I can solve everything, but my door is open
[04:51] <ailean> Do you have an email addy we can use then?
[04:51] <jono> the free software landscale is *all* changeable - and we can always make things better
[04:52] <jono> ailean, jono AT ubuntu DOT com
[04:52] <ailean> easy one :)
 QUESTION: is the jobs list on http://www.ubuntu.com/employment up to date?
[04:52] <popey> jono@I_am_in_love_with_my_beard.com
[04:52] <jono> theller, yes
[04:52] <ypsila> pruhust
[04:52] <jono> popey, arf arf arf!
[04:52] <jono> Fritti> QUESTION: how do we reach you best? IRC / email?
[04:52] <jono> Fritti, bigger issues I prefer email, quick questions and comments, IRC me
[04:52] <jono> right we are done :)
[04:53] <atoponce> jono: thx for the class. it was very helpful.
[04:53] <popey> \o/
[04:53] <jono> thanks folks for sticking around, I hope it was useful :)
[04:53] <laharrin_> thanks
[04:53] <popey> deffo
[04:53] <ailean> thanks jono
[04:53] <Casanova> jono: thanks a lot :-)
[04:53] <theller> thanks jono
[04:53] <Seeker`> thanks jono
[04:53] <irvin> thanks jono
[04:53] <Jucato> yay!
[04:53] <dloic> clap clap
[04:53] <lumpki> ditto
[04:53] <Jucato> thank you!
[04:53] <Casanova> i enjoyed it a lot :)
[04:53] <claydoh> very nice jono
[04:53] <popey> Moo!
[04:53] <apokryphos> cool :)
[04:53] <GSF> clap clap
[04:53] <rrittenhouse> thanks jono
[04:53] <thiebaude> very good
[04:53] <rulus> thanks a lot !
[04:53] <jono> :)
[04:53] <jrib> thanks
[04:53] <_jmk_> thanks
[04:53] <neuro_> great jono, excellent
[04:53] <LjL> Thank you
[04:53] <popey> *clap*
[04:53] <gnomonic> Great session, jono (and friends)
[04:53] <mihakriket> Thanks jono
[04:53] <jono> and blog about this week, lets grow the community even bigger :)
[04:53] <davmor2> thanks Jono (rock god my arse):)
[04:53] <GSF> haha
[04:53] <juliux> thanks jono
[04:54] <popey> We Wuv you Jono!
[04:54] <proppy> oups
[04:54] <neuro_> jono: i'll only blog about this week if you get round to doing a certain advocacy planet addition i asked you about weeks ago :>
[04:54] <irvin> now let's all grow beard and rock!
[04:54] <jono> neuro_, oh...yeah
[04:54] <neuro_> popey: you calling me a pussyboy? :)
[04:54] <popey> meow
[04:54] <neuro_> lol
[04:54] <dholbach> irvin: ROCKING: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mneptok/rockin.gif
[04:54] <neuro_> you sir, are a cad
[04:54] <neuro_> \m/
[04:54] <popey> :)
[04:55] <popey> I have had to try this hard..
[04:55] <Seveas> dholbach, is that jono?
[04:55] <popey> |---------------------------------------------> |
[04:55] <popey> not to laugh at my desk for the last hour
[04:55] <dholbach> Seveas: hahaha :-)
[04:55] <Seeker`> popey: Not to scale?
[04:55] <apokryphos> popey: I've failed 8)
[04:55] <dholbach> Seveas: ask mneptok
[04:55] <Jucato> QUESTION: btw, what's the bottle dance all about? :)
[04:55] <neuro_> Jucato: :))))
[04:55] <apokryphos> hehe
[04:55] <Seveas> Jucato, shush
[04:55] <Fritti> *grin*
[04:55] <whadar> jono: ?
[04:56] <Seveas> jono doesn't want to be reminded of it ;)
[04:56] <neuro_> Seveas: no no, it's a pertinent question
[04:56] <neuro_> we demand an answer
[04:56] <rrittenhouse> haha
[04:56] <neuro_> bottle dance!
[04:56] <neuro_> bottle dance!
[04:56] <neuro_> bottle dance!
[04:56] <kalon33> thanks a lot jono, now we have to work for involvment ! ^^
[04:56] <jono> Jucato, I like to dance, and I happen to dance holding my beer, just in case some thief nicks it, so its been nicknames the bottle dance
[04:56] <kalon33> *involvement
[04:56] <neuro_> jono: \o/
[04:56] <neuro_> now we know
[04:56] <jono> hehe
[04:56] <Jucato> lol :)
[04:56] <neuro_> either that or he's fobbed us off with the OBVIOUS ANSWER!
[04:56] <rrittenhouse> haha, nice.
[04:56] <rrittenhouse> hmm
[04:56] <neuro_> could be a variation on the red hot chilli peppers
[04:57] <neuro_> they have socks on their ...
[04:57] <neuro_> jono could have had a bottle on his ...
[04:57] <neuro_> :>
[04:57] <lotusleaf> O_o
[04:57] <jono> btw, another community Q+A tomorrow at 5pm UTC
[04:57] <irvin> perhaps we could entice jono for a feisty release song :)
[04:57] <Seveas> neuro_, neh, there aren't that small bpttles
[04:57] <jono> irvin, hehe
[04:57] <neuro_> Seveas: fair point
[04:57] <neuro_> harsh
[04:57] <neuro_> harsh but fair
[04:58] <ailean> is feisty going to be released on schedule? i thought there were serious problems
[04:58] <thiebaude> i'm ready for 7.04
[04:58] <Amaranth> ailean: feisty development just started, what serious problems are you talking about?
[04:58] <ailean> no, i mean the first cd on thurs :)
[04:58] <Amaranth> ailean: oh, that
[04:59] <thiebaude> it keeps getting better
[04:59] <neuro_> hehe
[04:59] <kiko> hello hello
[04:59] <ailean> Amaranth, do you know what the state of play is?
[04:59] <jono> :P
[04:59] <neuro_> thanks again jono matey
[04:59] <ailean> Amaranth, are you the XGL guy?
[04:59] <Amaranth> ailean: I'm a beryl developer, if that's what you mean
[05:00] <jono> ok folks
[05:00] <Amaranth> ailean: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:00] <ailean> i just remember the name
[05:00] <jono> ready for some kiko love?
[05:00] <ailean> ok
[05:00] <kiko> if we have to
[05:00] <jono> introducing a man who looks like every member of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers rolled into one
[05:00] <jono> its Christian Reis!!
[05:00] <kiko> except for billy cogan, jono means
[05:00] <jono> take it away kiko
[05:00] <jono> :P
[05:00] <kiko> and billy corgan of course.
[05:01] <kiko> okay welcome to this tuesday's session of "Learning to Love Launchpad"
[05:01] <kiko> (the love is cheesy yes but I wanted three identical vowels and Lick wasn't a good choice)
[05:01] <ailean> (consonants :) )
[05:01] <kiko> so I'll start off pointing the obvious
[05:01] <jenda> consonants, you mean
[05:01] <jenda> hehe
[05:02] <kiko> what's a word between friends
[05:02] <ailean> feic, aren't we all picky...
[05:02] <Amaranth> kiko: It's definitely something you have to learn to love. ;)
[05:02] <ailean> sorry
[05:02] <kiko> launchpad is a tool for both project communication and inter-project collaboration
[05:02] <kiko> when I say project communication I really mean intra-project communication
[05:02] <kiko> and many people have experienced Launchpad in that aspect
[05:02] <kiko> for instance, looking at ubuntu bugs
[05:03] <kiko> or helping translate jokosher (free advertising)
[05:03] <kiko> or even writing a specification for a bzr enhancement
[05:03] <kiko> launchpad can definitely be used to manage your own project
[05:04] <kiko> we offer a few areas of functionality which we like to call applications
[05:04] <kiko> even though the line between them is slightly fuzzy
[05:04] <kiko> they are:
[05:04] <kiko> - bugs
[05:04] <kiko> - translations
[05:05] <kiko> - questions and answers (a.k.a. support)
[05:05] <kiko> - blueprints
[05:05] <kiko> - code (a.k.a. branches)
[05:05] <kiko> this means that your own project can use launchpad today to manage those areas of your work.
[05:06] <kiko> you can use each bit as much as you like -- it's not an all-or-nothing proposition
[05:06] <kiko> so you can choose to use launchpad for bug hosting, but keep your code in subversion for now
[05:06] <kiko> you can choose to take advantage of launchpad's easy translation functionality to kick off a translation project for your software, like jono did
[05:07] <kiko> or you can use launchpad to manage support requests that come in for your project.
[05:07] <kiko> that's the thousand-foot-view of the launchpad applications
[05:07] <kiko> I'll take two questions that came up before now just to keep this less of a monologue!
 <neuro_> QUESTION: How straightforward is it to add another distribution to launchpad, i.e. my own fictional distro, neurolinux, or some other non-Ubuntu-based distro?
[05:08] <kiko> adding of distributions is a bit special for technical reasons.
[05:08] <Seveas> kiko, lotsof questions are already being asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;)
[05:08] <kiko> (Seveas, I know, I'm trying to keep tabs on them!)
[05:09] <kiko> because launchpad is used to manage the ubuntu archive, there are certain bits of the distribution management system that are a bit.. let's say.. sensitive to new distros and releases being added
[05:09] <kiko> we've worked to simplify that and allow distros to be created without a significant burden on the end-user, but we're Not Quite There Yet
[05:09] <neuro_> kiko: i suppose the question is, is there a documented process that can be followed to a point where a launchpad admin can make things happen, i.e. web forms to fill in, etc
[05:09] <neuro_> yeah
[05:09] <kiko> yes
[05:09] <neuro_> ok, cool
[05:10] <neuro_> is it on the wiki, or somewhere else? :)
[05:10] <kiko> you can file a new ticket (in /products/launchpad/+tickets) to have your distribution added. the basic bits of metadata are: a name, a description a URL and a team to hold its members.
[05:10] <neuro_> aha
[05:10] <neuro_> ok, thanks
[05:10] <kiko> it's not actually on the wiki, though that's more of a bug than an explicit consideration
[05:10] <kiko> I'll make a note to make these instructions clearer.
[05:11] <kiko> and a faq entry.
[05:11] <kiko> good.
[05:11] <kiko> okay, two fun questions that everybody loves asking!
 <proppy> QUESTION: is launchpad free software ?
 QUESTION: is Launchpad going to be "open sourced" soon? Some people seem to have issues with using a proprietary service like LP.
 QUESTION: can i install my own launchpad somewhare and how ?
[05:12] <kiko> these three questions are kind of related
[05:12] <theller> thanks jono
[05:12] <kiko> as of today, Launchpad is not free software
[05:12] <kiko> there are a number of reasons for this
[05:13] <kiko> I'll outline the ones which I consider the most relevant
[05:14] <leonel> and  doesn't have to be  freesoftware
[05:14] <kiko> - launchpad is essentially a centralized service. without debating the merits or disadvantages of a centralized service, I'd like to point out that one of the concerns with releasing Launchpad source code is that a number of different launchpads would pop up
[05:14] <kiko> with a federated system of launchpad the sort of problems we are trying to solve become different and to an extent more complicated
[05:15] <kiko> - launchpad is non-trivial to contribute to. we have and will offer NDAs to people willing to assist us in working with the code, but we know that there's a big learning curve and that people are less motivated to work on something for which they will not be able to roll out on their own
[05:16] <kiko> we have a pretty serious code review, QA and rollout process (which you can witness on #launchpad) which is not too inviting for people who are interested in making a short one-off contribution
[05:17] <kiko> if you are interested, please mail me (kiko@canonical.com) at any time and I'll talk about the process for getting code access. I'd love to have community people come in and help out -- we have limited resources and this is not a small application.
[05:17] <kiko> - launchpad is non-trivial to /run/. we have about six core servers that are used for day-to-day operations, and something like 10 or 12 that are used for the services which we call upon to collect data
[05:18] <kiko> running a similar site would be anon-trivial production exercise, and the code and documentation have not been written to make any of this easily deployable. there are over 40 moving parts that need to be run independently (last I counted at least, and I was depressed at the result!)
[05:18] <kiko> so it's not a small thing.
[05:19] <kiko> let me move on otherwise people will fry me for talking too much on one subject, but please email me (kiko@canonical.com) if you want to discuss this with me at greater length
[05:19] <kiko> I am always fond of conversation, being a brazilian!
[05:20] <kai[sds] > those are about the same arguments sun had before releasing java. btw. the linux kernel is non-trivial to contribute to and by releasing the source code of it different linux distributions could pop up.
[05:20] <kiko> it's true, and we may reconsider, but those are our arguments today.
[05:20] <proppy> kiko: thanks for answering that one :)
[05:21] <kiko> (or perhaps better put, those are not the exact same arguments, as java and launchpad are very different -- launchpad is a web service, like google. we'd love to reconsider, though, and perhaps we can find a way of doing so if we have some great ideas together)
[05:21] <kiko> anyway, moving on
 QUESTION: So is LP a service that makes a site similar to sourceforge?
[05:22] <kiko> yes, it's a web service, and in that line, it's somewhat similar to sourceforge.
[05:22] <kiko> it's not like sourceforge in the sense that it doesn't offer mailing lists or web hosting for free
[05:23] <HamishTPB> thanks - LP is one of those things I keep reading about in blogs and stuff but never actually got around to looking to see what it was :)
[05:23] <kiko> but you can use it to track bugs and tickets
[05:24] <kiko> and you can use it to translate software (which is internationalized using gnu gettext, for now)
[05:24] <kiko> which is something that SF doesn't offer.
[05:24] <kiko> we also offer hosting of bzr repositories
[05:24] <kiko> so there /are/ additional (and particularly interesting) features that you can use on Launchpad today that aren't available elsewhere
[05:24] <kiko> so we are a bit of a unique platform.
[05:25] <kiko> okay.
[05:25] <kiko> let me guide you quickly through some of the applications
[05:25] <kiko> so I don't burn up /all/ my time in controversy :-)
[05:26] <kiko> let me start with bugs, because as we know all software has bugs, and software like ubuntu, well, it has LOTS of bugs.
[05:26] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[05:26] <kiko> 20262 of them, to be precise
[05:27] <kiko> this is the master bug listing for ubuntu
[05:27] <kiko> by default it is ordered by importance, which is a single bug property that indicates how important it is /to the project team/
[05:28] <kiko> the bug listing is batched in sets of 75, so you can navigate to the next batch using those controls at the top
[05:28] <kiko> to get to a bug select the link in the summary
[05:28] <kiko> let's look at a bug chosen from that listing so I can illustrate other points that are a bit unique to malone
[05:29] <kiko> how about bug 68904:
[05:29] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/68904
[05:30] <kiko> the bug page gives you a lot of information in the first screen
[05:30] <kiko> the central portion has the bug summary
[05:30] <kiko> the bit I want to call your attention to is the table at the top
[05:30] <kiko> that specific bug lists two rows in the table
[05:31] <kiko> and in the fact that there /are/ two rows shows why the launchpad bug tracker is somewhat unique:
[05:31] <kiko> you can
[05:31] <kiko> oops, that come out wrong!
[05:32] <kiko> a bug can exist in multiple bits or instances of software at the same time.
[05:32] <rockz> auehauehuahe
[05:32] <kiko> this is an interesting bug to point this out in particular
[05:32] <kiko> so distributions in general work by packaging software available upstream
[05:32] <kiko> this is a bug that was initially reported against ubuntu
[05:33] <kiko> meaning that an ubuntu user went and filed the bug while looking at the ubuntu file-a-bug page
[05:33] <kiko> (which is incidentally launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug)
[05:34] <kiko> now, the bug was triaged by scott, who happens to maintain the package in ubuntu
[05:34] <kiko> now a bug in a package can really be the responsibility of two different parties
[05:35] <kiko> a) it can be a bug in the original software. most bugs are of this sort. essentially, this is a bug that needs to be fixed in the upstream's version control  system, and released to the world in whatever form they do releases; usually tarballs.
[05:35] <kiko> b) it can be a bug in the packaging, meaning that the bug was caused when the original software was reorganized and changed to suit the distribution's policies and layout
[05:36] <kiko> now, this particular bug was filed against ubuntu, and end-users do not need to know if it's a) or b) above
[05:36] <kiko> but the triagers and developers can definitely look at the bug and say "ah, upstream issue"
[05:37] <kiko> a bug will normally start out only filed against a single context.
[05:37] <kiko> let me find you an example.
[05:37] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/69532
[05:37] <kiko> in bug 69532, there is a single row in that table -- the bug was only reported against ubuntu.
[05:38] <kiko> if someone goes in and decides that the bug is actually (or also) an upstream issue, meaning it's case a) above -- a bug in the original software -- any user can go ahead and indicate "Also affects: +Upstream"
[05:38] <kiko> that will allow the user to indicate what upstream software the bug is present in
[05:39] <kiko> and that's how you get to the two-rows situation which is in bug 68904.
[05:40] <kiko> let me close the brief bugs overview by pointing out that the bug tracker has a number of cool features: keeping track of CVEs, an incoming and outgoing email interface (meaning you can manipulate bugs via email too) and bug watches.
[05:41] <kiko> bug watches are one of our most interesting features, and they are basically ways to attach a row [in the Affects: table I described above]  to a bug in a remote bugtracker, such as gnome's bugzilla or otherwise.
[05:41] <kiko> let's look at bug 27810 for an example
[05:41] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/libaio/+bug/27810
[05:42] <kiko> this is an interesting bug because it has one ubuntu status, and one debian status.
[05:42] <kiko> the debian status is actually "linked" via a bug watch to debbugs #318795.
[05:42] <kiko> and the status is polled periodically and updated in launchpad
[05:43] <kiko> this means that if you are a packager waiting for a fix to appear upstream or in another distribution, you can simply check your bugmail daily; you will get notified when the remote bug is resolved.
[05:43] <kiko> this is amazingly valuable and people that package a broad variety of software can really save time by keeping tabs on upstream bugs in this fashion.
[05:44] <antihec> nice
[05:44] <kiko> okay, enough bug whirlwinding.
[05:44] <kiko> let me catapult you to another part of launchpad -- translations!
[05:44] <kiko> I'm going to use jokosher as the example here just to demostrate that we are not really ubuntu-specific or even ubuntu-centric
[05:44] <kiko> (though ubuntu does make for a damn good demo!)
[05:45] <kiko> launchpad.net/products/jokosher/+translations
[05:45] <kiko> this will display translation templates available for jokosher in your preferred languages (if selected) or your geoip location (if the geoip and the launchpad databases are not wrong!)
[05:46] <jono> woo!
[05:46] <kiko> so
[05:46] <kiko> for instance
[05:46] <kiko> if you are a brazilian weirdo like me
[05:46] <kiko> you can choose to help translate jokosher by following the link to
[05:46] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/products/jokosher/trunk/+pots/jokosher/pt_BR/+translate
[05:46] <niemeyer> There are no brazilians weird like you..
[05:47] <kiko> if on the other hand you are a chinese rogue translator sumarai sort of person
[05:47] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/products/jokosher/trunk/+pots/jokosher/zh_CN/+translate
[05:47] <kiko> you guys had a rosetta chat yesterday, and this is just an overview of what the tool is.
[05:47] <kiko> I just want to point out one feature which is useful and clears up some confusion:
[05:48] <kiko> translations for a project can be set up in a structured mode
[05:48] <kiko> this means that you don't need to accept translations that happen to be added by J. Random Defacer
[05:49] <kiko> in structured mode, translations made by unprivileged users (people not in the projects' selected translation team) appear as suggestions
[05:49] <OgMaciel> kiko it is worth to mention that there are organized translation teams too... for the weirdo Brazilians, for instance, one can check https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-pt-br as a starting point
[05:49] <kiko> and are not automatically approved
[05:50] <bob_> it is almost 1700 UTC, is this the room where Mark Shuttleworth will respond to questions?
[05:50] <kiko> right. there are a number of translation teams associated to ubuntu and otherwise! if you do know more than one language competently, you can make a big dent in our lack of translations by applying to join a team and working with people to get through the approval process.
[05:50] <kiko> let me zip through other features that are worth discussing.
[05:51] <kiko> (I'll use ubuntu because there is just so much data to make it fun)
[05:51] <kiko> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+tickets
[05:51] <kiko> this is the URL to the tickets open on Ubuntu; tickets are part of the launchpad application formerly known as Support and soon-to-be-renamed-as-Launchpad Answers
[05:51] <kiko> (I'll talk a bit about the name change in the next report sent to the launchpad-users mailing list if you are interested)
[05:52] <kiko> this is basically a channel where end-users can post requests for help
[05:52] <kiko> and anybody (ANYBODY!) can offer answers
[05:52] <bob_> QUESTION: it is almost 1700 UTC, is this the room for Ask Mark (Shuttleworth)?
[05:52] <kiko> answers that the end-user confirms are good get marked as solved
[05:52] <GSF> bob_: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:52] <kiko> and the base of solved questions is a good first step towards a faq.
[05:53] <kiko> the answer tracker is a runaway hit for ubuntu -- there are already thousands of requests posted and answered.
[05:53] <kiko> you can use the answer tracker as a way to deal with user requests outside of your bug tracker, and then migrate issues that are actually bugs over
[05:53] <kiko> you can easily file bugs based on a ticket.
[05:54] <kiko> (just look at the left-hand menu that says "Create Bug Report" and "Link Existing Bug")
[05:55] <michael__> is Mark here yet?
[05:55] <Lesley> hello!
[05:55] <sidhi> hi
[05:55] <kiko> helping out in a project's community support is a great way to provide assistance, and I think the answer tracker we have is a cheap way to set a forum up for your own project.
[05:55] <PBeck> open-suse developer here? :)
[05:55] <davmor2> chat on #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[05:55] <kiko> I need to kick into fifth today (isn't it great when your plans for time go out the window?)
[05:56] <ubuntufreak> now they are now in the msn livechat ;)
[05:57] <kiko> the remaining apps which I did NOT cover (yay) were the blueprint tracker and the code hosting feature.
[05:57] <kiko> I'll cover them in reverse in my next talk on thursday
[05:57] <kiko> so we can be sure to discuss them there.
[05:57] <jono> ok
[05:57] <greguti> thanks a lot for all these informations, it's extremely valuable
[05:57] <Seveas> thanks kiko!
[05:57] <GSF> thanks
[05:57] <jono> thanks kiko
[05:57] <Alex_Palex> thanks kiko
[05:57] <davmor2> thanks kiko nice round up
[05:57] <ubuntufreak> thx
[05:57] <ktogias> thanks kiko
[05:57] <mattl> thanks kiko
[05:58] <topyli_> i hope this is "organized" somehow, so that there won't be 412 questions at 17:00 :)
[05:58] <rulus> thanks for this fantastic session kiko!
[05:58] <roze1> prot
[05:58] <jono> so, sabdfl is up next in our Ask Mark session
[05:58] <kiko> I've got the questions posted here in a vim box (yay vim boo emacs) and I'll try replying either privately or in the questions channel.
[05:58] <lzap> thanks
[05:58] <kiko> thanks to everybody that put up with my typos and bad breath!
[05:58] <kiko> oh I wasn't supposed to say that on IRC?
[05:58] <sabdfl> great work kiko
[05:58] <ubuntufreak> *g*
[05:58] <sabdfl> wrists ready for icing?
[05:58] <Seveas> kiko, no worries, aroma-over-irc has been disabled for this session
[05:58] <jono> IMPORTANT: like our previous sessions, this channel needs to be quiet while the next hour is in progress and sabdfl answers your questions - please post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[05:58] <amachu> sabdfl, Mark Shuttleworth?
[05:59] <jono> amachu, yes
[05:59] <antihec> thanks kiko :)
[05:59] <kiko> I will apply vegetable balm to them
[05:59] <lotusleaf> sabdfl has a posse
[05:59] <amachu> sabdfl, hi
[05:59] <jono> Mark will take the questions ans answer them here
[05:59] <kiko> all right, enjoy mark!
[05:59] <greguti> (what does "sabdfl" means?)
[05:59] <sabdfl> greguti: is that the first question :-)
[05:59] <jono> ok folks lets go
[05:59] <amachu> sabdfl, Hi Mark... this is amachu from Ubuntu Tamil Team
[05:59] <greguti> well, I hope so :-)
[06:00] <sabdfl> ok, i'll answer greguti while the rest of the questions get put in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, ok?
[06:00] <jono> remember to prefix questions with QUESTION folks
[06:00] <jono> sabdfl, shoot
[06:00] <sabdfl> greguti: "self-appointed benevolent dictator for life"
[06:00] <greguti> got it
[06:01] <sabdfl> jono: will you be bringing the Q's across from -chat, or should I do that?
[06:01] <jono> sabdfl, your choice - would you like to? so you can pick the relavent questions?
[06:01] <sabdfl> jono: prefer you to do that, so i can focus on answering them here
[06:01] <jono> sure
 QUESTION:  Is launchpad working out the way you hoped it would or does it still need work mark?
[06:02] <sabdfl> ok, folks, please put your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefix them with QUESTION
[06:03] <jono> first question is:
[06:03] <sabdfl> davmor2: LP is working out well, though there have certainly been teething problems along the way. we now have our archives, uploads, builds, bugs, translations, and planning handled there, and quite a lot of upstreams are using it too which is super
[06:03] <jono>  <davmor2> QUESTION:  Is launchpad working out the way you hoped it would or does it still need work mark?
[06:03] <jono> oops
[06:03] <neuro_> jono: hehe
 QUESTION: Can we expect more paid developers for Kubuntu? If yes, when? Yesterday in the kubuntu session we were informed that there is still only one paid dev, tough on linuxtag (May 2006) there was the promise to hire more people from KDE to work on Kubuntu.
[06:03] <sabdfl> we are currently working on a proper UI, so when that is released LP will actually look *designed* rather than *grown*
[06:04] <eboogie> sabdfl...you rock, bro.
[06:05] <sabdfl> Zerlinna: yes, I'm sure that some of the new devs we are hiring will be KDE specialists. Many of our core team just happen to use and love Gnome, so it gets a lot of full-time love. I think you'll be amazed to know there are only two folks formally on the gnome desktop team at Canonical - seb128 and dholbach, it's a testament to them how amazingly good the gnome packaging is
[06:05] <sabdfl> thanks eboogie, but with a nick like that you must rock a lot too :-)
[06:05] <eboogie> i hear that...
 QUESTION: How close do you think we are to getting bug #1 resolved?
[06:06] <michael__> QUESTION: sabdfl, why not use debian-language-support-packages instead of makin new ones???
[06:07] <Seveas> !questions
[06:07] <ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:07] <michael__> upps sry
[06:07] <gsuveg> michael__: please on chat
[06:07] <sabdfl> mattl: a long way still. linux only has a tiny market share, and until we are beyond 10% i think it will be hard to get ISV and consumer electronic manufacturer attention. that said, i think linux has a good chance to rebalance the ecosystem, especially if we can find a way to keep it free of charge rather than making expensive shrink-wrapped versions of it
 QUESTION: Will Ubuntu ever be shipped to shops, in boxes with user guides, and then be sold like Suse, I think this would be a good step to get more people interestd!
[06:07] <mattl> sabdfl: do you see a way to get Ubuntu into stores, in a low cost package?
[06:08] <LjL> !questions
[06:08] <ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:08] <Seveas> mattl, NOT HERE
[06:08] <mattl> Seveas: I'm replying to a response. Is that not allowed?
[06:08] <cga> Seveas, i suggest you set mode +m
[06:08] <sabdfl> bclinch: there are some retail editions, produced by third parties in boxed sets. and you can buy official Ubuntu on DVD at Amazon etc
[06:08] <oblio> Seveas: make it moderated
[06:08] <sabdfl> also we are now working with more and more retail companies to preinstall ubuntu on PC's, you'll see a lot of that in 2007
 QUESTION: Are you guys still pursuing Oracle certification for Ubuntu? Does Oracle moving into the "distro business" change any of that?
[06:09] <sabdfl> whiprush: very good question. yes, we are still pursuing that, and have every reason to believe that Oracle will do it once a reasonable number of large companies make it clear that Ubuntu is preferable to them over Red Hat and Oracle
[06:09] <sabdfl> however
[06:10] <sabdfl> now that Oracle is themselves a service provider to the Linux OS, they will likely resist certifying new versions of Linux
[06:10] <sabdfl> so it is definitely a setback for us
[06:10] <sabdfl> i think it's *great* that Oracle has entered the linux services game
[06:11] <sabdfl> though i think their chose rip-off-redhat strategy is cute but ultimately too-clever-by-half
[06:11] <gsuveg> possible to moderate this channel ?
[06:11] <sabdfl> they will end up either forking outright, and making oracle linux, or buying red hat, or just offering services for ubuntu
[06:11] <jono> <kai[sds] > QUESTION: what are the aspects of ubuntu you are not satisfied with yet, that need most of the work? (talking about features)
[06:11] <Amaranth> gsuveg: it's fine if you stop talking :)
[06:11] <sabdfl> artwork!
[06:12] <wedderburn> lol
[06:12] <sabdfl> i'm very happy that we have the beginnings of a strong artwork community team
[06:12] <sabdfl> but we still need a lot of hard work to get done
[06:12] <sabdfl> in addition, i'd like to see us continue to improve our formal hardware testing
[06:12] <sabdfl> so we know where it works, and where it does not, before each release
[06:13] <sabdfl> we need to continue to grow the number of developers to match the number of users, because more users equals more use cases, more bugs, more packages needed
[06:13] <sabdfl> integration with windows is important, i'd like to see that addressed
[06:13] <sabdfl> and then i'd like to see us showing that the free software desktop can really exceed people's expectations
[06:13] <sabdfl> right now  expectations are set by the proprietary platforms
[06:14] <sabdfl> its a bit like the browser before firefox 1.5
[06:14] <sabdfl> i hope that compiz/beryl will be an amazing environment of innovation for the desktop metaphor
[06:14] <sabdfl> and telepathy/galago will change people's sense of "connected"
[06:15] <sabdfl> we need to show that the amazing integration of apps and the net is really best suited to a free software world
[06:15] <MacSlow> and not to forget lowfat *cough* ;)
[06:15] <sabdfl> so there is plenty of work to be done yet :-)
[06:15] <neuro_> MacSlow: lol, nice plug :)
[06:15] <joejaxx> sabdfl: i was wondering what do you think we can do to strengthen the releationships and collaboration between Ubuntu and the different derivatives that have arisen from its creation
[06:15] <sabdfl> MacSlow: if only it were free software :-)
[06:15] <MacSlow> neuro_, :)
 QUESTION: what has been the hardest part about developing ubuntu?
[06:15] <MacSlow> sabdfl, don't worry it will come
[06:15] <marky> Hi
[06:16] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: maintaining a clear vision despite the unbelievable growth in the community
[06:16] <cga> hi marky , please use the chat channel
[06:16] <gnomefreak> joejaxx: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat type QUESTION:<your question>
[06:16] <joejaxx> whoops wrong channel
[06:16] <joejaxx> sorry everyone
[06:16] <cga> !questions marky
[06:16] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about questions marky - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[06:16] <marky> ???
[06:16] <sabdfl> ubuntu has grown in user base, in derivatives (ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu, ubuntu studio, guadalinex...)
[06:16] <sabdfl> but the core dev team has not grown that quickly
[06:17] <sabdfl> fortunately, we have an amazing community, and the growth in that, and folks willingness to help shape ubuntu, has made the growth possible
 QUESTION: How much influence do you have over the development of Ubuntu - ie/ If 90% of the developers were against a feature, would you over-ride?
[06:17] <jono> ok folks, we are moderating this chan, too much noise
[06:18] <sabdfl> dotwaffle: EVERYTHING is a negotiation :-)
[06:18] <jono> make comments in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:18] <sabdfl> there are plenty of examples of places i don't get what i think is best
[06:19] <sabdfl> i agitate and push hard in many cases because that's my job - open doors, break down walls, challenge thinking
[06:19] <sabdfl> in some cases, with hindsight, i'm wrong
[06:19] <sabdfl> nekkid people, anyone?
[06:19] <sabdfl> and the community processes are often good at fleshing out an idea and looking it from angles one person would never consider
[06:20] <sabdfl> but, at the same time, i think it's useful to have someone who *can* take a decision that's tough
[06:21] <sabdfl> ultimately, though, any push comes at a cost, so i use what weight i have very sparingly
 QUESTION: No one can be the leader of a large software project without running into controversy. What controversial decisions do you feel are actually worth discussing (as opposed to ancient debates over, for example, editors)?
[06:21] <sabdfl> daxelrod: funny you should ask :-)
[06:22] <sabdfl> right now there is a lot of discussion around the use of drivers that are proprietary
[06:22] <sabdfl> we have included such drivers in ubuntu since the very first release
[06:22] <sabdfl> along with firmware
[06:23] <sabdfl> but with the new 3D desktop effects work going on in the Beryl / Compiz communities, we will have a situation where some people will have a very different desktop experience to others
[06:23] <sabdfl> and this will to a certain extent depend on the use of proprietary drivers
[06:23] <sabdfl> that's controversial :-)
[06:23] <sabdfl> i just blogged some thoughts in this regard, and expect the discussion to continue over the coming days
 QUESTION: is launchpad closed source your protection against other companies - let's not forget oracle boss ellison said that red hat isn't worth anything because they don't own anything? don't you think that launchpad is far too customized to be taken away by another company, and it would be better open sourced? more eyes on bugs
[06:24] <sabdfl> oblio: man, i would love to have more eyes on LP bugs :-)
[06:24] <sabdfl> yes, LP is part of what I hope will sustain ubuntu in the long term
[06:24] <sabdfl> note that this has nothing to do with locking in people's data
[06:25] <sabdfl> we've said that we will make it possible to get any of your data our without having to screen-scrape
[06:25] <sabdfl> in rosetta, that's easy because PO files are the lingua-franca of translations
[06:25] <sabdfl> in others, we either have text views of reports which are easy to parse, or are working on xml-rpc interfaces
[06:25] <sabdfl> i would like it to be possible to drive LP entirely through xml-rplc
[06:25] <sabdfl> both inputting and extracting data
 QUESTION: Do you intend to ever have more than one jono, either by an elaborate and illegal cloning exercise, or more likely by hiring other great people as the community expands?
[06:26] <sabdfl> nice choice of question jono :-)
[06:26] <jono> :P
[06:26] <sabdfl> jono is, of course, unique
[06:27] <sabdfl> hopefully, everyone at Canonical is open to working with the community, understands how important that is to us
[06:27] <sabdfl> Jono lead a very good session at our recent AllHands company meeting, introducing our new business guys to some radical ideas in this regard
[06:28] <sabdfl> and yes, we have hired other guys specifically because of their ability to work well with the community
[06:28] <sabdfl> matt revell starts RSN to help the marketing team @canonical grok community ideas
 QUESTION: Any truth to the ubuntu team working with the google team to create an OS?
[06:29] <sabdfl> jjtoymachine: i think it's well-known that Googlers use a modded Ubuntu as their dev desktop, there are no master plans behind the scenes beyond that AFAIK
 QUESTION: is Ubuntu considering revisitng their own patent license or how they approcah licensing in the wake of Novelle / MS
[06:29] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: we are certainly looking at ways to strengthen our stand against software patents
[06:30] <sabdfl> we are entirely opposed to them, and its possible we can actively help to prevent their spread, beyond the advocacy we already do
[06:31] <sabdfl> whether or not the Novell executives who negotiated the recent Novell-MS deal were aware of what was going on, it's entirely obvious that MS is working to establish an IP framework that limits the spread of free Linux
[06:31] <sabdfl> it was obvious to many of us the moment the deal was announced that "virtualisation interop" was far less interesting to MS than the patent implications
[06:32] <sabdfl> MS paid Novell a lot of money to stand up on stage and validate their theories about patent licensing
[06:32] <sabdfl> and MS will expect a return on their investment :-)
[06:32] <sabdfl> so, i was not surprised when Ballmer came out with the statement that "anybody running any linux other than SUSE has an undisclosed balance sheet liability"
[06:33] <sabdfl> what that means, in english, is that anybody who uses any version of linux other than those that pay MS, are liable to get sued by MS
[06:33] <sabdfl> that includes Debian, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Fedora etc
[06:33] <sabdfl> make no mistake about it, this is a major assault on the key things that have driven the success of linux
[06:34] <sabdfl> this is why i think its so important to protest the deal
[06:34] <sabdfl> and why i think we should find ways to take a stronger public position on patents within Ubuntu
 QUESTION: Do you think Ubuntu might become too big for the Free Software community? Although Ubuntu itself is obviously pushing innovation, do you think other distros with more specific targets and more experimental ideas might go under since people would "wait for Ubuntu to do it"?
[06:35] <sabdfl> Warbo: that's why folks should fork ubuntu :-)
[06:35] <sabdfl> seriously
[06:35] <sabdfl> i really like it when a group of people says "this is something that's very important to us and its not in ubuntu"
[06:35] <sabdfl> make packages, make a derivative
[06:35] <sabdfl> hopefully, we can make that process easier over time
[06:36] <sabdfl> shortly, we will make it easy for people to biuld their own versions of ubuntu packages, and publish those
[06:36] <sabdfl> that will allow teams to collaborate on specific things they think are important or cool
[06:36] <sabdfl> if those things belong in the core, we will figure it out soon enough, based on input from places like the Forums
[06:36] <sabdfl> which are a good source of "what people want" for us
[06:36] <sabdfl> then we can move that into the core
[06:37] <sabdfl> alternatively, those things might belong in a specialised derivative
 QUESTION: Why are proprietary drivers okay, but proprietary software such as Adobe Acrobat not?
[06:37] <sabdfl> ailean: i blogged about exactly this question today :-)
[06:37] <sabdfl> drivers allow free software to shine, they make it POSSIBLE for the free apps to gain traction
[06:38] <sabdfl> it's a somewhat arbitrary line
[06:38] <sabdfl> firmware
[06:38] <sabdfl> drivers
[06:38] <sabdfl> X drivers
[06:38] <sabdfl> FCC-compliant blobs
[06:39] <sabdfl> but after a LOT of discussion, a long time ago, we decided that we wanted to make sure the OS Just Worked with your hardware, and then install only free applications
[06:39] <sabdfl> people really wanted java, but we left it out till it was GPL'd
[06:39] <sabdfl> people today really want flash, but we don't include it
[06:39] <sabdfl> hopefully, that's an incentive to people to write free versions of those apps
[06:39] <sabdfl> which is much more feasible than free drivers for undocumented hardware
[06:39] <sabdfl> i do believe we can win over the hardware guys to our cause
[06:40] <sabdfl> but we need to engage with them over time
[06:40] <sabdfl> drive users to choose hardware that is free-software friendly
[06:40] <sabdfl> make the case based on security and support rather than ideology
[06:40] <sabdfl> we will get there that way
 QUESTION: did you take some time to test the news Windows Vista, and if yes, what's your opinion on it?
[06:41] <sabdfl> i ran an early beta of vista under vmware, which is not an ideal test environment
[06:41] <sabdfl> i think MS have done a very good job with it
[06:41] <sabdfl> though i think of course that it might have been better for them to set a more modest set of release goals and actually ship it years ago rather than go through the tortous path they have taken :-)
[06:42] <sabdfl> interestingly, i watched the way MS related to their community
[06:42] <sabdfl> i think they have been studying the free software world
[06:42] <sabdfl> and trying to learn about building community
[06:42] <sabdfl> open bug tackers
[06:42] <sabdfl> classes for beta testers about how to submit really good bug reports
[06:42] <sabdfl> lots of interactive sessions between developers and testers
[06:42] <sabdfl> very interesting, and kudos to them
[06:43] <sabdfl> we are going to have to raise our game substantially to compete
[06:43] <sabdfl> we are going to have to innovate faster than they can over the next five years
[06:43] <sabdfl> i think it is possible for us to take the desktop by storm
[06:43] <sabdfl> but it won't "just happen"
 QUESTION: Has Canonical been able to make any money off Ubuntu yet?  In what ways are Canonical business model for Ubuntu different than other Linux distributions?
[06:44] <sabdfl> levander: yes, we offer 24x7 tech support for Ubuntu from our mOntreal office
[06:44] <sabdfl> mostly, our customers there are using it on servers
[06:44] <sabdfl> also, we have done some work customising it
[06:44] <sabdfl> and now we are starting to work with people who want to use Launchpad commercially too
[06:44] <sabdfl> we are still a long way from breakeven
[06:45] <sabdfl> a lot depends on whether we can convince the major ISV's and IHV's to recognise the benefits of having a free platform they all certify
[06:45] <sabdfl> with a company behind it
[06:45] <sabdfl> in terms of difference
[06:45] <sabdfl> (a) we don't have separate "community" and "enterprise" versions
[06:46] <sabdfl> (b) we don't charge for the binaries, at all, you can use them free on as many servers and desktops as you want
[06:46] <sabdfl> (c) we don't charge for security updates, you get those free too
[06:46] <sabdfl> we only charge for services provided by humans on the team
 QUESTION: How threatened do you feel by Microsoft?  Do they actually have any claim on Ubuntu's code, will any legal threat fail, or does money talk?
[06:47] <sabdfl> ailean: Interesting question
[06:47] <sabdfl> MS have done some wonderful things for the world
[06:47] <sabdfl> they made software cheap, which is great
[06:47] <sabdfl> they made it standard
[06:48] <sabdfl> they have produced some excellent software
[06:48] <sabdfl> and some not-so-excellent software
[06:48] <sabdfl> i think, now that we have the internet, that the free software process is a fundamentally better way of producing software, though
[06:48] <sabdfl> and i think that free software platforms will innovate faster than proprietary ones
[06:48] <sabdfl> so at a deep level, i think its them that should feel threatened
[06:48] <sabdfl> that said
[06:49] <sabdfl> history shows that a big organisation that can't change fast enough to adapt to changes in its environment ALWAYS tries to lock the environment down
[06:49] <sabdfl> look at the RIAA
[06:49] <sabdfl> the members there cannot see a way forward that preserves their profitability
[06:50] <sabdfl> so they are suing their own customers
[06:50] <sabdfl> to try to preserve a 70's era analog business model
[06:50] <sabdfl> i think MS is prepared, if worst comes to worst, to sue their own customers
[06:50] <sabdfl> in order to protect an 80's era business model, of software licensing
[06:50] <sabdfl> that's dangerous
[06:50] <sabdfl> they are of course also trying to innovate out of the corner
[06:50] <sabdfl> Windows Live is interesting
[06:51] <sabdfl> so is the X-Box, and the Zune
[06:51] <sabdfl> they are all attempts to shift to subscription-based revenues
[06:51] <sabdfl> relationship-based revenues
[06:51] <sabdfl> if they can be successful there, they are less likely to go nuclear
[06:51] <sabdfl> but if not...
[06:51] <sabdfl> that's why we can't legitimise their IP dogma now
[06:51] <sabdfl> why the Novell deal is so treacherous
 QUESTION: Are there plans to make the upgrade process more smooth? Edgy upgrade didn't go well for many people, which often was their own fault, but still :)
[06:52] <sabdfl> pointwood: yes, the team has an upgrade too
[06:52] <sabdfl> l
[06:52] <sabdfl> sorry
[06:52] <sabdfl> the team has an upgrade tool, which is designed to smooth the process
[06:52] <sabdfl> a lot of folks just change the apt/sources.list to point at the new release and hope for the best
[06:53] <sabdfl> that won't work
[06:53] <sabdfl> what we do need is more testing of the upgrade tool with each release
[06:53] <sabdfl> and more community contributions to that tool
[06:53] <sabdfl> so - please help out with Edgy->Feisty
 QUESTION: Pending legal action, would Ubuntu redirect all of their efforts in extracting "patented" code from the OS?
[06:54] <sabdfl> Spec: we would certainly do our bit
[06:54] <sabdfl> if anything that Canonical has created infringes someone's patents, we hope they will let us know so we can fix that, or that they will licence the patents for free use with free software
[06:54] <sabdfl> we would also of course coordinate with upstreams working on their part
[06:55] <sabdfl> i do not actually believe that a nuclear patent option will stop linux at all
[06:55] <sabdfl> IBM and others have made it very clear they will use the muscle in their patent portfolios to stop big IT companies from trying that
[06:55] <sabdfl> and as for small patent trolls, we can work around any patents they might come up with
[06:55] <sabdfl> while at the same time, the linux vote is getting stronger and stronger
[06:56] <sabdfl> if we had 50 million users in the USA, we could certainly block dangerous patent legislation
 QUESTION: You mentioned more extensive testing as a step to tackle upgrade issues in the future. Who actually is formally doing the testing? What happens with the results? How can I help?
[06:56] <sabdfl> stefg: plese chat with mvo on #ubuntu-devel
[06:56] <sabdfl> s/plese/please/
[06:57] <jono> ok one final question
[06:57] <jono> that a few people in the channel want to ask
[06:57] <jono> what do you want for christmas sabdfl? for the man who has everything?
[06:57] <sabdfl> jono: my two front teeth :-)
[06:57] <jono> hehe
[06:58] <sabdfl> actually, thank-you notes from folks who appreciate ubuntu to the ubuntumembers would be nice
[06:58] <sabdfl> please don't address them to me - it's the whole community that builds the distro, including doc, translations and artwork
[06:59] <sabdfl> i get a kick from the thank-you's that I do receive, and i know the core devs feel exactly the same way
[06:59] <jono> ok sabdfl is going to answer a few more
[06:59] <jono> I have to run out for a bit, so he will post them here
[06:59] <sabdfl> since there's no Open Week class scheduled here now, i'm happy to keep going a little while
[07:00] <jono> sabdfl, hero :)
[07:00] <Seveas> jono, want someone to take over?
[07:00] <sabdfl> Seveas: yes please!
[07:00] <Seveas> ok
[07:00] <jono> thanks Seveas
 Question: Ubuntu is all community driven, and there are lots of volunteers helping. I'm sure that many more would come if there was crystal-clear documentation and How-to's for new people to get their hands dirty in bug reporting, packaging, everything. Ins't it worth to put some extra energy on teaching everyone how to get inside the community? How to really be useful for ubuntu?
[07:01] <sabdfl> tiagoboldt: yes, i think you're right. the doc team is doing AMAZING work, they have really leaped forward in recent months
[07:01] <sabdfl> this open week is designed to welcome new members to the community
[07:02] <sabdfl> and there are sessions (tomorrow 20h00 UTC for example) on the doc team
 QUESTION: How can one get sertified as Ubuntu user/admin?
[07:03] <sabdfl> DraxNS: there is an LPI Ubuntu exam, you can take it at any Vue or Prometric site, or at an LPI exam
[07:03] <sabdfl> we will soon announce more formal training courses in some countries
[07:04] <sabdfl> if you know training companies, you can ask them to contact billycina
[07:04] <Seveas> sabdfl, @ubuntu.com?
[07:04] <sabdfl> on irc :-)
[07:04] <Seveas> ok
 QUESTION: Where do the really cool names for Ubuntu releases come from?
[07:04] <sabdfl> billy.cina@canonical.com too
[07:04] <sabdfl> lorenzo: dude, i love you
[07:05] <sabdfl> we make them up after a LOT of debate
[07:05] <Seveas> Many people are asking about package management
[07:05] <sabdfl> OK, is there a specific question?
[07:06] <Seveas> "will apt be replaced with something else/better"
[07:06] <sabdfl> NEVAH!
[07:06] <gnomefreak> :)
[07:06] <sabdfl> well
[07:06] <sabdfl> there are interesting possibilities, like SMART
[07:06] <sabdfl> Apt is not very maintained right now
[07:06] <sabdfl> and smart would be an easier codebase to work with
[07:07] <sabdfl> it's also a good candidate for creating collaboration with other distros, like.... opensuse :-)
[07:07] <sabdfl> so i'm open to this
[07:07] <sabdfl> of course, the tech board would have the final say on that one
 QUESTION: What about changue linux kernel  or make special version of Ubuntu  with Opensolariss kernel if it is GLP'ed
[07:07] <gnomefreak> Seveas: whos question was that? did he mean dpkg or parts of dpkg like apt
[07:07] <sabdfl> torkiano: i would like to see Ubuntu-on-OpenSolaris
[07:08] <sabdfl> there are some legal questions, grey areas rather than outright problems
[07:08] <sabdfl> ideally, the SUN libc and libm would need to be BSD or GPL'd
[07:08] <sabdfl> or LGPL'd
[07:08] <sabdfl> alternatively the glibc would need to be ported
[07:08] <sabdfl> but that would leave Solaris apps in a bit of a pickle
[07:09] <sabdfl> if those can be resolved, then yes, I would like to see Ubuntu embrace OpenSolaris
[07:09] <sabdfl> there is a lot fo great work in the BSD universe
[07:09] <sabdfl> we should be trying harder to collaborate with NetBSD and FreeBSD for example
[07:09] <sabdfl> if this is an area that interests you, please go ahead and see if you can muster up a team :-)
 QUESTION: Three years ago, Ubuntu Linux didn't exist; where do you see Ubuntu in October/November 2009?
[07:10] <Seveas> (many people asked similar questions)
[07:10] <sabdfl> neuro_: hopefully continuing to accelerate the awareness and adoption of Ubuntu
[07:10] <sabdfl> erk
[07:10] <sabdfl> free software :-)
[07:10] <sabdfl> i think we have made amazing progress
[07:11] <sabdfl> i'm very proud of the work this community produces, and very happy to be helping to underwrite that
[07:11] <sabdfl> we can change the world
[07:11] <sabdfl> so lets keep at it
 QUESTION: What is your personal motivation behind the projects you started? Why are you doing it?
[07:12] <sabdfl> slam: i benefited hugely from the existence of free linux
[07:12] <sabdfl> that's how i got to build Thawte, it made it possible to build something great from the tip of africa that could compete with VC-backed Us companies
[07:12] <sabdfl> i want to bring that some advantage to desktop users
[07:13] <sabdfl> so there's a strong philanthropic case for devoting some of my ill-gotten gains to this project
[07:13] <sabdfl> also, i think we can make it a commercial success
[07:13] <sabdfl> without compromising and making it a RHEL-style proprietary offering
[07:13] <sabdfl> where you have to pay for the privilege
[07:13] <sabdfl> and without putting Flash and codecs in either
[07:14] <sabdfl> so i'm challenged by the commercial game and opportunity too
 QUESTION: How do you see the future of office suites in Ubuntu? Currently, OpenOffice.org is shipped by default in both Ubuntu and Kubuntu. Would you favor a switch to KOffice in Kubuntu, once it is regarded as "mature enough"? OpenOffice.org is practically the only desktop application in Kubuntu that is not KDE-based.
[07:14] <sabdfl> interesting question
[07:14] <sabdfl> on the one hand we all benefit hugely from openoffice, because it is cross-platform
[07:15] <sabdfl> it has become a real wedge helping people wean themselves off proprietary software
[07:15] <sabdfl> they can run it on windows, then move to linux
[07:15] <sabdfl> on the other hand, the project is in dire need of some real community action
[07:15] <sabdfl> i sometimes wish that we had all focused our energy on KOffice and GnomeOffice
[07:16] <sabdfl> because they are both much more agile, much leaner, much faster...
[07:16] <sabdfl> much better poster children for what free software apps should feel like
[07:16] <sabdfl> i think the OO.o team are facing a fork in the road
[07:16] <sabdfl> if the KOffice guys can match their MS office interop, then I think KOffice would be a better bet
 QUESTION: What's your opinion on MS tightening the license-policy on Vista? Will this help promote Ubuntu, since a lot of people dont't want MS looking over their shoulder every three weeks?
[07:17] <sabdfl> stefg: yes, if MS really enforces their licensing of Vista, and makes it impossible to run it without paying for it, this will hugely drive the adoption of desktop linux
[07:18] <Seveas> I have one of my own: would you return to space if you had the chance?
[07:18] <sabdfl> Seveas: well, technically, i have the chance every April and October when a Soyuz goes to the ISS :-)
[07:18] <Seveas> hehe
[07:18] <Seveas> ok, next:
 QUESTION: How about fluendo's solution to mp3 codecs. They purchased the rights and then made a plugin that can be legally used in lgpl players such as banshee
[07:18] <sabdfl> i would love to go up again, it's a huge privilege
[07:18] <sabdfl> but i feel i want to earn that privilege by doing something awesome on the ground
[07:19] <sabdfl> something noone else can pull off
[07:19] <sabdfl> and that's ubuntu
[07:19] <sabdfl> also
[07:19] <sabdfl> i am waiting for the possibilities in space to open up
[07:19] <sabdfl> for example, a new craft, or the ability to push a Soyuz further or faster than anyone else :-)
[07:19] <sabdfl> woodwizzle: it's still binary-only, AFAIK, with redistribution issues
[07:20] <sabdfl> so we won't ship that
[07:20] <sabdfl> if i'm wrong, someone please holler!
[07:20] <Seveas> sabdfl: afaik it's open source
[07:20] <Seveas> and they offer free patent licenses to redistributors
[07:20] <Seveas> (free as in gratis)
[07:20] <sabdfl> however, we WILL make it very easy for you to activate MP3 support if you can legally do so
[07:21] <sabdfl> for example, if you have a patent licence, or for research purposes, or if there are no relevant patents in your jurisdiction
[07:21] <sabdfl> Seveas: i'm intrigued, happy to hear more on this
[07:21] <Seveas> sabdfl, after the session ;)
[07:22] <Seveas> Something asked a few times: Will PPC support be discontinued soon?
[07:22] <sabdfl> We will make a final decision on PPC for Feisty by the end of next week
[07:22] <sabdfl> if there is sufficient community contribution on this, then the community port can be just as good as a Canonical-supported one
[07:23] <sabdfl> we would keep the builds in place, but not block the release if things failed to build
[07:23] <sabdfl> so if people step up to unblock issues when they occur, then PPC would be on the same footing as it currently is
[07:23] <Seveas> sabdfl, will "but ps3 is ppc" be a valid argument? (asked a few times as well)
[07:24] <sabdfl> the extra architecture costs us a lot in terms of testing bandwidth at release time, and figuring out issues like how to deal with the live CD are compicated
[07:24] <sabdfl> if SONY fund Ubuntu-on-PS3 then I guarantee it will happen :-)
[07:24] <sabdfl> if not, then its hard to rationalise it on either philanthropic or commercial grounds
 QUESTION: Do you think that the free software community could be an example for other areas of human interaction, to show the benefits of not being primarily money motivated, but cause motivated?
[07:25] <sabdfl> Sanne: yes
[07:25] <sabdfl> it's not so much money-vs-cause
[07:25] <sabdfl> as collaboration and participation
[07:26] <sabdfl> i think this meme will spread to every industry
[07:26] <sabdfl> commerce will of course continue
[07:26] <sabdfl> salaries get paid
[07:26] <sabdfl> contracts get issued
[07:26] <sabdfl> but people will find a way to express their personal interests as community-owned work
[07:26] <sabdfl> like wikipedia
[07:27] <Seveas> A few from the "How can we" department that relate to the same issue: How can we coax GPU companies to open up? How can we attract game developers and users?
[07:27] <sabdfl> first we have to make them care about the linux platform
[07:27] <sabdfl> that means - get tens, hundreds of millions of users
[07:28] <sabdfl> without that, they have no incentive even to spend the money to THINK about this question
[07:28] <sabdfl> second, we have to show them that they will benefit by being open
[07:28] <sabdfl> that their cost of production will be reduced
[07:28] <sabdfl> and their quality will go up
[07:28] <sabdfl> i would like to hear from Intel on their experiences, for example
[07:28] <sabdfl> third, we have to show them that their competitive position will improve
[07:29] <sabdfl> so, if we push Nvidia users to ATI, and there are lots of users who make buying decisions based on that, then Nvidia will notice and act accordingly
[07:29] <sabdfl> we need to gather leverage, and then use it
 <gip> Can you ask: QUESTION: How many people is actively using Ubuntu today? How is the market share increment now?
[07:30] <sabdfl> I think 4-8 million use Ubuntu directly
[07:30] <sabdfl> probably double that if you factor in derivatives too
 QUESTION What about the mysterious "landscape-client", Mark?
[07:31] <sabdfl> gummibaerchen: it's a GPL piece of code that will allow you to get web-based monitoring of your machine in future, through a service from Canonical
[07:32] <sabdfl> we will encourage other ISV's to extent that GPL client to monitor other aspects of the system, for example, database performance
[07:32] <sabdfl> to make it easy to manage large numbers of Ubuntu machines
 QUESTION: What are the chances of seing some Ubuntu-branded online services. For instance, a calendar that shows your appointments on every (internet connected) Ubuntu computer you log into, or perhaps some Ubuntu-branded email/webmail?
[07:33] <sabdfl> tom56: damn, that's a good idea!
[07:33] <sabdfl> i'd like to provide a syncing service, and we do have ubuntu.net so...
[07:33] <Seveas> Ubuntu Live!
 QUESTION: With Java now under the GPL will Sun's JDK/JRE be included in Fiesty?  Also, do you anticipate some of Sun's Java Desktop being included in future releases of Ubuntu?
[07:34] <sabdfl> ryeyawn: yes, absolutely, now that SUN has taken that step its just a question of time before Java makes its way to main
[07:34] <sabdfl> i think the core pieces might be there now
[07:34] <sabdfl> and it's great that SUN engineers are working to make this possible
[07:34] <sabdfl> there are still some licence blockers
[07:34] <Seveas> (we're missing a few core pieces that aren't free yet)
[07:34] <sabdfl> but sun is committed (I believe) to clearing those as fast as possible
[07:34] <sabdfl> we won't move pieces to main till they are free
[07:35] <sabdfl> if you want to help there, i can put you in touch with the right people
[07:35] <sabdfl> starting with tmarble :-)
[07:35] <Seveas> there were quite a few questions about including ndiswrapper by default, i think. or, perhaps the broader question -- How to deal with the problem of people with Internet connections that cannot be used by Ubuntu by default, when installing the software to enable them would involve having a working Internet connection in the first place?
[07:36] <sabdfl> ndiswrapper-by-default is not something i want to wrap my brain around just now
[07:36] <Seveas> heh
[07:36] <sabdfl> it's possible
[07:36] <gnomefreak> heh
[07:36] <sabdfl> and it would be legal, AFAICS
[07:36] <sabdfl> if it were proven stable, then it might be a useful last-ditch plan
[07:36] <sabdfl> for winmodems etc
[07:37] <sabdfl> tell me about the internet connection issue?
[07:37] <sabdfl> is this PPPOE?
[07:37] <gnomefreak> sabdfl: wireless
[07:37] <Seveas> More like "not having one"
[07:37] <sabdfl> i would like to see PPPOE solved, if anyone else would like to help then please get in touch with me
[07:37] <Seveas> it's not easy to install packages/upgrade UBuntu without one
[07:37] <gnomefreak> the users that need it have no conection to instll it
[07:38] <sabdfl> not having one because there are no linux drivers, even non-free ones?
[07:38] <Seveas> in general
[07:38] <Seveas> not being connected
[07:38] <sabdfl> i believe cjwatson is working on the ability to add drivers at install time
[07:38] <sabdfl> so folks could use a USB drive to add a driver they downloaded using <cough> some other OS</cough>
 QUESTION: What needs to be done to push FOSS software in UK schools today? I have come through schools that have used almost exclusively Microsoft software and other propriatery software solutions, for almost everything. It could save huge amounts of money on licensing etc. and the Vista upgrade looks a scary one for most education establishments.
[07:39] <gnomefreak> sabdfl: thats what we have them do but im hearing its on alternate cd
[07:39] <sabdfl> gnomefreak: i thought it was on Live CD, but please check with cjwatson (or Colin, please chip in if you're watching)
[07:40] <sabdfl> ToonArmy: we should not push the "save huge amounts of money" button
[07:40] <sabdfl> instead, we should ask how the govt plans to provide for:
[07:40] <sabdfl>  - musician pupils
[07:40] <gnomefreak> if he dont answer i will get up with him in next 24 hours to find out
[07:40] <sabdfl>  - statistics pupils
[07:40] <sabdfl>  - physics pupils
[07:40] <sabdfl>  - language pupils
[07:40] <sabdfl>  - comp sci pupils
[07:40] <sabdfl> ...
[07:40] <sabdfl> the point is that, with free software, we have a HUGE variety of tools for teaching and learning
[07:41] <sabdfl> really, really wide variety
[07:41] <sabdfl> the equivalent in proprietary software is (a) not possible to find and (b) enormously expensive
[07:41] <sabdfl> Windows+Office is not "it"
[07:41] <sabdfl> we have to broaden people's perception about what computers can achieve in learning
[07:41] <sabdfl> and show that free software is the only way, really, to deliver all of that
 QUESTION: Best and worst moment since Ubuntu project started?
[07:42] <sabdfl> Bourlotieris: dapper release, and the x update mistake
 QUESTION: Can we learn something from Apple in terms of getting Windows users to 'switch'? What are your views on OS X?
[07:43] <sabdfl> sadiq: i think we can learn a lot from apple in terms of "what users want"
[07:43] <sabdfl> however, we don't want to go down their proprietary road of AAC-hell
[07:44] <sabdfl> OS X is a testament to what is possible with end user experience on UNIX
[07:44] <sabdfl> so lets show that it can be even better
[07:44] <sabdfl> and even more open
 QUESTION: Mark, Ubuntu Server, How about comparing/ competing with red-hat clusters?
[07:45] <sabdfl> amachu: interesting
[07:45] <sabdfl> there are a lot of scientists that build their own HPC platforms
[07:45] <sabdfl> it would be nice to get enough of them together to work on a REALLY-SCALABLE-BUNTU
[07:45] <sabdfl> HA-clusters are slightly different
[07:45] <sabdfl> that is more enterprise-ish
[07:46] <sabdfl> chat with fabbione, i think he wants to see Ubuntu HA clustering rock
[07:46] <sabdfl> Seveas?
[07:46] <Seveas> (as in: Ubuntu rocks on the hpc cluster I built ;))
[07:46] <sabdfl> rock star :-)
 QUESTION: Let me rephrase my question: If the Nouveau drivers manage to provide working 3D on nvidia cards, would a certain decrease in performance be acceptable to avoid using the nonfree driver by default?
[07:46] <sabdfl> jonasj: yes
[07:46] <sabdfl> at least, IMO
 QUESTION: sabdfl, a few municipal administrations in europe are in the process of implementing linux for their infrastructure. How could ubuntu take part in that?
[07:48] <sabdfl> guglielf: we could provide a forum for the specific items they want to collaborate with the community on, and of course they could contract to get commercial support etc with Canonical. so hopefully ubuntu should represent the best of both worlds to them.
[07:48] <sabdfl> if you know folks involved, please encourage them to look more closely at ubuntu
 QUESTION: Debian call themselves 'GNU/Linux'. Why not you guys?
[07:49] <sabdfl> arjun: we do give appropriate credit to the GNU community
[07:49] <sabdfl> both personally (i always make a point of this in presentations and speeches) and on the website etc
[07:49] <sabdfl> i'm not going to get drawn into calling it "GNU/Linux for Human Beings"
[07:49] <sabdfl> that's just... silly, and I don't mind you quoting me on that
[07:50] <Amaranth> and then the first thing you have to explain to a new user is what a recursive acronym is :)
[07:50] <sabdfl> the FSF and Gnu project have breathed life into the free software movement
[07:50] <sabdfl> we should always credit them with that
[07:50] <sabdfl> but also, remember there's a huge amount that we depend on every day that comes from other parts of the free software community
[07:50] <sabdfl> look at the amazing work of the apache foundation
[07:51] <sabdfl> so to my mind its about giving credit where its due
[07:51] <sabdfl> debian, fsf, even the much-maligned OSI
[07:51] <sabdfl> apache, bsd, UNIX... we stand on the shoulders of giants
 QUESTIONS: How satisfied are you with the LoCo Teams ? Few words about them?
[07:52] <sabdfl> ok, my fingers are letting me know that i'm talking too much
[07:52] <Seveas> and the next session starts shortly
[07:52] <sabdfl> LoCo teams are an AWESOME part of our community
[07:52] <Seveas> I think we should make this the last question, so we have time for the "thank you" rain that will follow
[07:52] <sabdfl> often when I visit countries and run into the LoCo teams i'm very humbled by the energy and advocacy they bring
[07:53] <sabdfl> its an amazing thing, to interact with people face to face and help them learn about this free software thing
[07:53] <sabdfl> i never read about linux in a magazine
[07:53] <sabdfl> actually, thats not true
[07:53] <sabdfl> i read about it a LOT
[07:53] <sabdfl> and online
[07:53] <sabdfl> i just never did anything about it
[07:53] <sabdfl> till someone GAVE me a stack of slackware floppies
[07:53] <sabdfl> that's the power of real-world advocacy
[07:53] <sabdfl> i'd like to figure out how we help the LoCo teams get more organised
[07:54] <sabdfl> give them better materials
[07:54] <sabdfl> help them work with the media
[07:54] <sabdfl> but in general, those that are active are fantastic
[07:54] <Seveas> sabdfl, how many more questions do you want?
[07:54] <sabdfl> lat two
[07:54] <sabdfl> last two
[07:54] <Seveas> ok
 QUESTION: what about a some ubuntu-commercials like the apple "switch" ones, or some video-contest like the firefox-flicks? it would be nice to see some Ubuntu users in a video. it's time to show, that linux-users are not only "geeks" and "nerds" anymore. :-)
[07:55] <sabdfl> suzan: cool idea! why not talk to the ubuntu-studio guys about that?
 QUESTION: Sabdfl, why are you taking all the trouble, like competing MS, running a distro and making it big... Wouldn't it be nicer to spent the whole day poolside with a cool drink ?
[07:56] <sabdfl> stefg: well, some days....
[07:56] <sabdfl> thing is, it would be boring to do nothing. i've had my time off between projects, and i just get itchy
[07:56] <sabdfl> i start thinking about how the world is changing
[07:57] <sabdfl> and how to make it GO FASTER
[07:57] <sabdfl> and this is the best thing for me to be doing right now
[07:57] <sabdfl> also
[07:57] <sabdfl> well, that's enough
[07:57] <sabdfl> thanks guys
[07:57] <sabdfl> thank you for the contribution everyone makes to this project
[07:57] <sabdfl> makes me very proud to be a part of it
[07:57] <Seveas> Thank YOU for taking the time and effort to answer all the questions
[07:58] <sabdfl> seveas, thanks for playing cop, as always
[07:58] <pitti> thanks sabdfl
[07:58] <ailean> thanks for staying mark - please do improve the help for people who want to help. i need guidance and find it difficult to get it. I'll make sure I send a note too :)
[07:58] <rulus> Wooohhoooo thanks Mark! Mark's cool!
[07:58] <polvi> thanks!! :)
[07:58] <topyli> thanks sabdfl!
[07:58] <_jmk_> kudoz to sabdfl, great project
[07:58] <LjL> Thank you sabdfl
[07:58] <sven-tek> encrypt your hardisc!
[07:58] <Webspot> thanks
[07:58] <noela> it's been educative and amusing, sabdfl , muchas gracias, thanks for everything!
[07:58] <ToonArmy> Thanks!!
[07:58] <sabdfl> so, who's up next?
[07:58] <Jonathon> Thanks for your time, sabdfl
[07:58] <mogwai> Cheers - keep up the good work!
[07:58] <lotusleaf> Bruce Dickinson is god
[07:58] <somerville32> Thanks!
[07:58] <brent_cool> THANK YOU!
[07:58] <maccabeus> thanks marc!!
[07:58] <Sanne> Thank you for a very enjoyable and informative Ask Mark session :)
[07:58] <suzan> thanks a lot!
[07:58] <woodwizzle> w0000000t!
[07:58] <NickH_> do it
[07:58] <pitti> sabdfl: I am :)
[07:58] <rdp> Thank you!
[07:58] <Slike> thx!
[07:58] <Chris7mas> thank you
[07:58] <ktogias> thanks sabdfl !!!
[07:58] <brent_cool> FTW!
[07:58] <stgraber> thx
[07:58] <wedderburn> cheers
[07:58] <Amaranth> YIKES
[07:58] <suzan> and, ubuntu need more women! ;-)
[07:58] <Metro> Thanks Mark
[07:58] <yipe> YAY!
[07:58] <arjun> thanks!
[07:58] <_MMA_> METAL!!! \m/
[07:58] <sabdfl> rock on, pitti
[07:58] <jonasj> thank you very much for the last two hours, and for ubuntu
[07:58] <Bourlotieris> Thank YOU Mark
[07:58] <sire1> Thankiu for interesting talk :0
[07:58] <Vhata> kram sknaht
[07:58] <LjL> Amaranth: well what did you expect
[07:58] <thefisist> really interesting. thanks mark
[07:58] <sire1> :)
[07:58] <nemphis> thx mark
[07:58] <torkiano> plas,plas,plas
[07:58] <gummibaerchen> thx+
[07:58] <exo-griffith> thank you, Mark.
[07:58] <ktogias> clap clap clap
[07:58] <ryeyawn> Thanks for everything Mark.
[07:58] <Bert> thanks
[07:59] <gummibaerchen> was great
[07:59] <reaton> thanks mark
[07:59] <ailean> sabdfl, must feel like a rock star
[07:59] <samgee> thx a bunch
[07:59] <corstar> Thanks to the ubuntu team for making all of this possible. VIVA UBUNTU
[07:59] <somerville32> Woot! :D
[07:59] <yipe> thanks for making linux good enough for my mom to switch!
[07:59] <johnnybuoy> I can write whatever
[07:59] <Amaranth> LjL: Actually I expected the volume to make me lag. :)
[07:59] <johnnybuoy> YAY
[07:59] <PhilStone> thanks mark
[07:59] <johnnybuoy> woot
[07:59] <ktogias> VIVA UBUNTU!
[07:59] <tim_> Thank You Very Much
[07:59] <LjL> Amaranth: well, it *is* making me lag, but then i'm on konversation
[07:59] <Lesley> Tx! have a greeeaaaat evening!
[07:59] <_MMA_> http://ubuntustudio.org and #ubuntustudio on Freenode
[07:59] <lotusleaf> sabdfl for president 2008
[07:59] <somerville32> Woo!
[07:59] <Morph> For anyone in or planning on being in Southern California in february 2007, the Southern California Linux Expo will have an Ubuntu presence..http://www.socallinuxexpo.org
[07:59] <Amaranth> Admiral_Chicago: me too
[07:59] <topyli> hehe
[07:59] <brent_cool> i've got my mom, dad, and girlfriend using ubuntu now, THANKYOU EVERYONE!
[07:59] <yipe> yay sabdfl
[07:59] <lorenzo> sabdfl: Thanks very much for Ubuntu.  Keep up the good work.
[07:59] <Admiral_Chicago> Amaranth: sweet
[07:59] <zch> Vielen Dank
[07:59] <Seveas> Next up is pitti
[07:59] <ogra> thanks sabdfl
[07:59] <tm|ubuntu> Morph: yay
[08:00] <lotusleaf> how easy is it to use a hookah in space?
[08:00] <topyli> cool brent_cool !
[08:00] <mogwai> kudos to you and the community
[08:00] <Seveas> Can we please return to "chatter in #ubuntu-classroom-chat" mode
[08:00] <exo-griffith> brent_cool, that's cool. Good job!
[08:00] <jorgp> thanks sabdfl,
[08:00] <brent_cool> i know!
[08:00] <corstar> Mark said there are "4-8 million Ubuntu users". Man, that ROCKS!!
[08:00] <pitti> WELCOME TO MY CLASS
[08:00] <Panzerboy_> hey pitti
[08:00] <Seveas> hi pitti!
[08:01] <radix> hooray pitti :)
[08:01] <Bert> test
[08:01] <Seveas> failed
[08:01] <DreamThief> hi pitti
[08:01] <pitti> I have a rather technical presentation now, for everyone who wants to modify anything in Ubuntu
[08:01] <highvoltage> win 13
[08:01] <rulus> can we please set mode to +M
[08:01] <cga> Seveas, will sabdfl have another session later?
[08:01] <pitti> just as a quick overview, who is here to learn about patching?
[08:01] <brent_cool> me
[08:01] <_jmk_> check
[08:01] <jorgp> me me
[08:01] <ktogias> me
[08:01] <amnesia> me
[08:01] <ssam> me
[08:01] <corstar> yep
[08:01] <acez> me
[08:01] <thekorn> me
[08:01] <rulus> me too
[08:01] <LinuxBA> yep
[08:01] <aeig> me
[08:01] <Amaranth> hahaha
[08:02] <Bert> me too
[08:02] <pitti> great!
[08:02] <mihakriket> me
[08:02] <Netfinity> me
[08:02] <romey> me
[08:02] <pitti> ok, time's limited, let's start
[08:02] <adrian3> me too
[08:02] <pitti> if anyone has any question, or I'm totally uncomprehensible (sorry, I'm German), please do not hesitate to interrupt and ask *immediately*
[08:02] <pitti> Also, don't bother trying to take notes, we'll sort that out at the end. You can fully concentrate on the discussion and examples.
[08:02] <zch> me too
[08:02] <pitti> Let's begin with a little bit of history:
[08:02] <Amaranth> Settle down guys, we need to let pitti teach us stuff. :)
[08:02] <pitti> == Why use separate patches ==
[08:02] <pitti> In earlier times, people just applied patches inline (i. e. directly in the source code tree). However, this makes it very hard to extract patches later to modify them, send them upstream, etc. Also this means that new upstream versions are a pain, since they generate a lot of rejections when applying the package diff.gz to them.
[08:02] <pitti> With split-out patches it is much easier to send them upstream, keep track of them, develop them, etc., since you always see which changes belong together.
[08:02] <pitti> The ideal state is an unmodified tarball from upstream, plus clean and separate patches, plus the packaging bits in debian/. That means that lsdiff <sourcepackage>.diff.gz only contains debian/.
[08:02] <pitti> The first attempts to split-out patches were pretty trivial: storing patches in debian/patches/, and adding some patch/patch -R snippets to debian/rules. This worked for small patches, but provided no tools for editing these patches, updating them for new upstream versions, etc.
[08:02] <pitti> Thus several standard patch systems were created which are easy to deploy and provide tools for patch juggling and editing.
[08:03] <dieterd> german too
[08:03] <rulus> not so fast pls
[08:04] <pitti> What I would like to do now is to introduce the most common patch systems and show some hands-on demo how to add a new patch and how to edit one. For this, I will point at a source package from the current dapper archive, quickly explain the patch system, and show how to apply some (braindead) modifications to it. I recommend you to do the same steps in a terminal, so that you get a feeling for the process and can immediately ask questions.
[08:04] <pitti> everyone you fine with this approach?
[08:04] <pitti> erm, of course I mean 'from the edgy archive', not dapper
[08:04] <pschulz01> pitti: Is the package the same in edgy?
[08:04] <Seveas> pitti, please name the packages now so we can apt-get source them
[08:04] <pitti> yeah, I don't want it to be entirely theoretical :)
[08:05] <pitti> If you want to try the stuff yourself, please do the following commands (on edgy) as preparation:
[08:05] <pitti>   sudo apt-get install dpatch cdbs quilt patchutils
[08:05] <pitti>   apt-get source cron udev pmount gnome-volume-manager ed xterm
[08:05] <pitti>   wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/dsrc-new-patch
[08:05] <pitti>   chmod 755 dsrc-new-patch
[08:05] <pitti> I deliberately picked the smallest packages I could find
[08:05] <dieterd> discussion is to fast to read
[08:05] <pitti> dieterd: ok, I wait a bit for catching up, please ping me if you guys are ready
[08:06] <amnesia> it's not him too fast, but the joiners/parters. channels should be invite only once lessons are started
[08:06] <pitti> yeah, those messages are pretty disturbing
[08:06] <Seveas> amnesia, set your chat client to ignore them
[08:06] <pitti> Seveas: quick how-to for xchat?
[08:07] <amnesia> what's easier, everyone sets their clients or just one +i
[08:07] <Snarius> pitti, rclick on channel tan
[08:07] <H3g3m0n> Settings>Advanced>Text Events and delete the Join Part entries (might want to save the list for easy undo)
[08:07] <Snarius> *tab
[08:07] <highvoltage> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
[08:07] <pitti> Snarius: ah, right
[08:08] <dieterd> Patching Packages - Martin Pitt
[08:08] <Amaranth> amnesia: We want people to be able to come in later
[08:08] <pitti> ok, everyone set with the intro and getting source packages?
[08:08] <Amaranth> amnesia: Schools don't lock their doors on you if you're 5 minutes late
[08:08] <rulus> mine does :(
[08:08] <amnesia> Amaranth: they do where I live
[08:08] <noela> mine did, Amaranth
[08:08] <noela> lol
[08:08] <highvoltage> here too
[08:08] <pitti> OT
[08:08] <jonh_wendell> pitti, still apt-get sourcing...
[08:08] <Amaranth> Anyway...
[08:08] <Chastell> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
[08:08] <amnesia> ok let's drop it and get on with packaging ;)
[08:08] <noela> (but you're right)
[08:09] <pitti> nevermind, for the first bit we don't yet need the packages
[08:09] <ktogias> ready
[08:09] <pitti> == cron: inline patches ==
[08:09] <pitti> No patch system at all, nothing much to say about this.  You directly edit the files in the source tree. This is convenient for a simple and quick change, but will bite back for new upstream versions (see above) and is inconvenient for submitting patches upstream, or reviewing for merges.
[08:09] <pitti> if you do 'lsdiff <package>.diff.gz' and you see changes which are not in debian/, then you probably have such a package
[08:09] <pitti> (some KDE packages have autoconf stuff directly in the diff.gz, but that is ok)
[08:09] <pitti> so, I think I do not need to say anything else about cron, unless someone has a question
[08:10] <dieterd> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html?year=2006&month=11&day=27&hour=15&min=0&sec=0    ----  on my computer it was saying three o clock for ubuntu talk program
[08:10] <CyberKahn>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
[08:10] <pitti> ok, no question here
[08:10] <pitti> so, people, get a grip, now it gets heavy
[08:11] <pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no patch system ==
[08:11] <pitti> This case is the most complicated one since you have to do all the hard work manually. In order to make you understand what a patch system does, and to give you a fallback method that will *always* work with any patch system, I handle this first.
[08:11] <pitti> The good news is that you will seldomly be required to actually do this procedure, I'll come to this again.
[08:11] <pitti> The general approach is:
[08:11] <pitti> 1. copy the clean source tree to a temporary directory /tmp/old
[08:11] <pitti> 2. apply all patches up to the one you want to edit; if you want to create a new patch, apply all existing ones (this is necessary since in general patches depend on previous patches)
[08:11] <pitti> if you want, you can use debian/rules for this: remove the patches that come *after* the one you want to edit, and call 'debian/rules patch'. The actual name for the patch target varies, I have seen the following ones so far: patch setup apply-patches unpack patch-stamp. You have to look in debian/rules how it is called.
[08:11] <pitti> 3. copy the whole source tree again: cp -a /tmp/old /tmp/new
[08:11] <pitti> 4. go into /tmp/new, do your modifications
[08:11] <pitti> 5. go back into /tmp generate the patch with
[08:11] <pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > mypatchname.patch
[08:11] <pitti> and move the patch to .../debian/patches/mypatchname.patch
[08:11] <pitti> ^ that's the theory, example will follow shortly (hands-on training)
[08:12] <jonh_wendell> pitti, take it easy
[08:12] <jonh_wendell> pitti, i do a lsdiff <package>.diff and got nothing
[08:12] <pitti> these steps are the general method how any patch is handled
[08:12] <Seveas> jonh_wendell, zcat package.diff.gz | lsdiff
[08:12] <pitti> jonh_wendell: that won't work in that form - lsdiff -z package.diff.gz
[08:13] <pitti> jonh_wendell: -z is for 'accept gzipped files', source packages have a diff.gz, not a .diff
[08:13] <davmor2>   /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS
[08:13] <pitti> davmor2: 'mind the gap' :)
[08:13] <pitti> jonh_wendell: settled? or still unclear?
[08:14] <jonh_wendell> pitti, ok, done
[08:14] <pitti> in general we want the following diff options:
[08:14] <pitti> -N -> include new files
[08:14] <pitti> -u -> unified patches (context diffs are ugly)
[08:14] <pitti> -r -> recursive
[08:14] <pitti> -p -> bonus, you can see the name of the affected function in the patch
[08:14] <pitti> does anyone have a question about the principle method?
[08:14] <jonh_wendell> pitti, about cron, are you showing a wrong way to package?
[08:14] <pitti> (I know it's heavy, sorry, that's live; promised, it'll get easier)
[08:14] <pitti> jonh_wendell: well, it's not exactly 'wrong'
[08:14] <pitti> jonh_wendell: as long as the package is not heavily modified, or Debian/Ubuntu is essentially the upstream, it's fine
[08:15] <dieterd> one wrong letter - a mess afterwards
[08:15] <pitti> but having all patches in a single big lump makes it next to impossible to send stuff upstream, or tell which bit belongs to what
[08:15] <mwicki> does anybody know how to install e debianpaket whitout root-permission, is it possible to install a debian-paket in a directory??
[08:15] <pitti> jonh_wendell: also, the tendency is that packages which have 'always' been there, have more 'archaic' build systems and no patch system
[08:16] <Jon> mwicki: you can unpack it using dpkg-deb -x <package> <directory> as any user who can write to <directory>
[08:16] <pitti> where as most recently packaged stuff uses a standard packaging system with a standard patch system, now that they are invented
[08:16] <Jon> mwicki: be warned, though, that doesn't run the pre or post install scripts
[08:16] <mwicki> but it runs???
[08:16] <pitti> mwicki: do you need to do that for patching?
[08:16] <pitti> mwicki: it most probably won't work
[08:16] <Jon> mwicki: if it's a simple program then you could then run the binaries in it
[08:17] <Seveas> mwicki, jon: the session is busy enough already, I'd appreciate it if you stick to the topic
[08:17] <pitti> ok, let's go back to patching udev - an EXAMPLE! \o/
[08:17] <pitti> open a shell, ready your fingers :)
[08:17] <pitti> udev example 1, let's create a new patch 90_penguins.patch:
[08:17] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
[08:17] <pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
[08:17] <pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
[08:17] <pitti>   debian/rules patch
[08:17] <pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
[08:17] <pitti> that's the preparatory part, now we have a directory we can hack in
[08:17] <mwicki> i tried to install in the university a paket, where i of corse dont have root permission
[08:17] <pitti> mwicki: #ubuntu, please
[08:18] <pitti> mwicki: or #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[08:18] <mwicki> sorry
[08:18] <pitti> let's do a braindead modification
[08:18] <pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
[08:18] <pitti> ^ of course you can also use a normal editor
[08:18] <pitti> I just use sed so that you can copy&paste the commands without any interactive stuff
[08:19] <pitti> and now we create a patch between the reference and our new tree
[08:19] <pitti>   cd ..
[08:19] <pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 90_penguins.patch
[08:19] <pitti>   popd
[08:19] <pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
[08:19] <pitti>   mv /tmp/90_penguins.patch debian/patches
[08:19] <pitti> (Ignore the 'recursive directory loop' warnings)
[08:19] <jonh_wendell> pitti, what does pushd do?
[08:20] <pitti> jonh_wendell: 'pushd foo' is like 'cd foo', but remembers the last dir and pushes it onto a stack
[08:20] <pitti> if you then do 'popd', it will return to the directory you have been in when you did 'pushd'
[08:20] <cbx33> cool
[08:20] <StaCk> isn't it like cd - ?
[08:21] <pitti> StaCk: no, that will go only to the previous dir
[08:21] <pschulz01> hehe.. Now with SEPenguin support.
[08:21] <StaCk> uh your right
[08:21] <lara22> hi guys
[08:21] <ecki> hey
[08:21] <pitti> StaCk: you can stack multiple pushd's on top of each other, and allow 'cd' in between
[08:21] <pitti> Now take a look at your shiny new debian/patches/90_penguins.patch.
[08:21] <pitti> *uff* :)
[08:21] <cbx33> pitti, wow that's both useful and scary
[08:21] <pitti> after that, if you do 'debian/rules patch', you'll see that the patch applies cleanly
[08:21] <pitti> 
[08:22] <pitti> so, obviously that's not the end of the wisdom, but if you do these steps a couple of times, you should get a feeling for how to create the most complicated patch conceivable
[08:22] <pitti> so this procedure is the life safer if anything else fails
[08:22] <pitti> questions so far?
[08:22] <pschulz01> pitti: cd new?
[08:22] <pitti> pschulz01: 'cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new'
[08:22] <dieterd> result is then a new cd with included patches?
[08:23] <pitti> pschulz01: we applied all previous patches in /tmp/old, then copied /tmp/old to /tmp/new, and hacked our stuff in /tmp/new
[08:23] <pitti> dieterd: the result after all of these steps is a single new file debian/patches/90_penguins.patch
[08:23] <pitti> dieterd: the commands above removed the temporary /tmp/old and /tmp/new trees
[08:23] <pschulz01> pitti: Neet to copy 90_penguins.patch to new/debian/patches
[08:23] <pitti> pschulz01: no, it shouldn't go to new
[08:24] <pitti> pschulz01: it should go to /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
[08:24] <pitti> (the original source dir, not the temporary working copies in /tmp)
[08:24] <pschulz01> pitti: Ahh.. ok.
[08:24] <pitti> any other difficulties? shall I copy the commands again as a block for clarity?
[08:24] <danilos> pitti: just use the parentheses to make stuff "clearer", like "cp -a /wherever/you/unpacked /tmp/old; (cd /tmp/old; blah...; cd /tmp/new; foo...); rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new" :)
[08:25] <pitti> danilos: hm, I use newlines for that
[08:25] <pitti> Pretty much work, isn't it? Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose.
[08:25] <pitti> that's the script you downloaded as part of the preparations
[08:26] <pitti> so, please remove debian/patches/90_penguins.patch again
[08:26] <pitti> yes, I know it was hard to do, but for the sake of demonstration :)
[08:26] <cbx33> pitti, that's the only way to learn dude
[08:26] <pschulz01> pitti: OK.. that's better.
[08:26] <pitti> so, with Pitti's Hackish Script (tm):
[08:26] <pitti>   dsrc-new-patch 90_penguins.patch
[08:26] <pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
[08:26] <pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
[08:27] <pitti> that looks slightly better, doesn't it?
[08:27] <pitti> but I had to torture you with the close-to-the-metal method for the sake of understanding.
[08:27] <at2000> in which dir to run the script?
[08:28] <pitti> at2000: in the root of the unpacked source tree
[08:28] <pitti> at2000: to conform with my previous example, /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
[08:28] <at2000> ok
[08:28] <at2000> then it should be "../dsrc-new-patch"
[08:28] <pitti> at2000: oh, right, you have to specify the path to the scrpit
[08:28] <dieterd> cu
[08:28] <jonh_wendell> pitti, is this script the same of cdb... showed yesterday?
[08:28] <pitti> I have it in my ~/bin, conveniently
[08:28] <pitti> jonh_wendell: no, not at all
[08:29] <pitti> jonh_wendell: I'll come to that
[08:29] <pschulz01> Hmm.. where do I find 'debclean'?
[08:30] <pitti> pschulz01: sudo apt-get install devscripts
[08:30] <pschulz01> pitti: Ta.
[08:30] <pitti> ^ for everyone else, too, sorry; fortgot to mention that
[08:30] <pitti> forgot, too
[08:30] <jonh_wendell> pitti, before run  dsrc-new-patch 90_penguins.patch  we have to clean dir, right?
[08:30] <pschulz01> pitti: It was in the 'recommends'
[08:30] <pitti> jonh_wendell: if you just unpacked the tree, it shuoldn't be necessary
[08:31] <pitti> ok, we need to go on
[08:31] <pitti>  let's stay at udev a bit and do the second example
[08:31] <pitti> I promise, this will be the last complicated issue in this lesson
[08:31] <pitti> but it might teach you to never ever do a package without a proper patch system :)
[08:31] <pitti> dsrc-new-patch is currently too dumb to edit existing patches, or to put patches somewhere else than the top of the patch stack. If you need this, then you need to do the manual approach. Assume we want to edit 50-result-whitespace.patch.
[08:31] <jonh_wendell> pitti, as i've run debian/rules patch with 90-penguim, i have to clean it
[08:31] <pitti> jonh_wendell: ah, right
[08:32] <pitti> This already existing patch 50-result-whitespace.patch does not depend on the previous patches, so it's a bit easier that way, too:
[08:32] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-093
[08:32] <pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
[08:32] <pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
[08:32] <pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
[08:32] <pitti> nothing new so far
[08:32] <pitti> but note that we did not apply any patch (since we assume that 50-result-whitespace.patch does not depend on its predecessors)
[08:33] <pitti>   patch -Nlp1 < debian/patches/50-result-whitespace.patch
[08:33] <pitti> above will apply the current version of the patch, so that you can edit it
[08:33] <pitti> now we have the *original* change in /tmp/new, which we now want to modify
[08:33] <pitti> so, let's do another braindead change:
[08:33] <pitti>   sed -i '1 s/$/***** HELLO WORLD ****/' udev_selinux.c
[08:34] <pitti> or any other change you quickly want to do in your favourite editor, of course
[08:34] <pitti> so, again we now have the original version in /tmp/old, and our old and new patch in /tmp/new
[08:34] <pitti> so let's do the patch:
[08:34] <pitti>   cd ..
[08:34] <pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 50-result-whitespace.patch
[08:34] <pitti>   popd
[08:34] <pitti>   mv /tmp/50-result-whitespace.patch debian/patches
[08:34] <pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
[08:34] <pitti> Now debian/patches/50-result-whitespace.patch contains both the original change and our modification of the first line of the source file.
[08:35] <pitti> but promised, from now on it will get really easy :)
[08:35] <pitti> any questions? is the issue of patch dependencies clear to everyone?
[08:35] <jonh_wendell> pitti, how do i know if a patch depends on others or not?
[08:35] <pitti> jonh_wendell: in general you should assume that each patch depends on the previous one
[08:36] <pitti> jonh_wendell: they *don't* if they patch a file that hasn't been patched before
[08:36] <pitti> or they patch it on a completely different position
[08:36] <pitti> e.g., if debian/patches/1_foo.patch changes foo.c, line 5
[08:36] <pitti> and debian/patches/2_bar.patch changes foo.c at line 6
[08:36] <pitti> then patch 2 definitively depends on patch 1
[08:37] <jonh_wendell> pitti, ok
[08:37] <at2000> is unified patch format better eliminating patch dependency?
[08:37] <pitti> jonh_wendell: a (non-solid) rule of thumb is: if you can apply the patch alone on the unmodified source tree, it's independent
[08:37] <pitti> at2000: no, not at all
[08:37] <pschulz01> pitti: Back with you.. it had to do a 'debian/rules clean' to cleanup the source.
[08:37] <pitti> unidiff vs. context diff is purely a matter of readability
[08:38] <at2000> ic
[08:38] <jonh_wendell> pitti, will you talk about cdbs-edit-patch which was showed to us yesterday?
[08:38] <pitti> patch dependency is an inherent property of patches modifying the same thing
[08:38] <pitti> not a question of a particular patch format
[08:38] <pitti> jonh_wendell: I will, it's the next topic
[08:38] <pitti> anything settled so far?
[08:38] <pitti> Since this is so hideously complicated, patch systems were invented to aid you with that.
[08:38] <pitti> Let's look at the most popular ones now (they are sufficient to allow you to patch about 90% of the archive's source packages; for the rest you have to resort to the manual approach above).
[08:39] <pitti> == pmount: cdbs with simple-patchsys ==
[08:39] <pitti> cdbs' simple-patchsys.mk module matches its name, it has no bells and whistles whatsoever. However, it is pretty popular since it is sufficient for most tasks, and long ago I wrote a script 'cdbs-edit-patch' which most people can live with pretty well. This script is contained in the normal cdbs package.
[08:39] <pitti> You just supply the name of a patch to the script, and depending on whether it already exists or not, it will create a new patch or edit an existing one.
[08:39] <pitti> simple-patchsys is the cdbs module that 90% of all cdbs-using source packages will use
[08:39] <pitti> BTW, "cdbs-edit-patch" is slightly misleading, since it actually only applies to simple-patchsys.mk. You can also use other cdbs patch system plugins, such as dpatch or quilt.
[08:40] <pitti> everyone please look in debian/patches, debian/rules of pmount to get a feeling how it looks like
[08:40] <pitti> so, let's mess up pmount a bit
[08:40] <pitti> and add a new patch
[08:40] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/pmount-0.9.13
[08:40] <pitti>   cdbs-edit-patch 03-simple-readme.patch
[08:40] <pitti>   echo 'This should document pmount' > README
[08:40] <pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
[08:40] <pitti> easy, isn't it?
[08:41] <pitti> check debian/patches/03-simple-readme.patch for the result
[08:41] <pitti> this will take care of applying all patches that need to be applied, can change patches in the middle of the stack, and also create new ones
[08:41] <pitti> Editing an already existing patch works exactly the same way, so I won't give a demo
[08:42] <jonh_wendell> cdbs-edit-patch rocks
[08:42] <pitti> yeah, unfortunately it only really works for packages that use cdbs
[08:42] <jonh_wendell> pitti, how do i know if a package uses cdbs?
[08:43] <pitti> which a good part of Gnome-related packages do
[08:43] <pschulz01> pitti: What does cdbs stand for?
[08:43] <pitti> jonh_wendell: debian/rules includes files from /usr/share/cdbs
[08:43] <pitti> jonh_wendell: and build-depends on cdbs
[08:43] <pitti> pschulz01: common debian build system
[08:43] <pschulz01> Ta
[08:43] <pitti> it's a very modular abstraction of boilerplate build rules, patch systems, etc.
[08:44] <at2000> when I cdbs-edit-patch the same diff, it results in 2 diffs concatenated in the same file?
[08:44] <pitti> at2000: if you edit two different files, yes
[08:44] <pitti> at2000: in general, it will merge the old and new patch
[08:45] <at2000> perhaps I've done something wrong
[08:45] <jonh_wendell> pitti, when we make a patch, should we add entries in debian/changelog file too?
[08:45] <pschulz01> pitti: This makes creating patches very easy :-)
[08:45] <pitti> jonh_wendell: if you intend to publish this, yes, by all means
[08:45] <pitti> pschulz01: \o/
[08:46] <pitti> can I go on?
[08:46] <jonh_wendell> sure
[08:46] <pitti> time pressure...
[08:46] <pitti> == ed: dpatch ==
[08:46] <pitti> dpatch is a pretty robust and proven patch system which also ships a script 'dpatch-edit-patch'
[08:46] <pitti>  The two most important things you should be aware of:
[08:46] <pitti>  * dpatch does not apply debian/patches/*, but instead applies all patches mentioned in debian/patches/00list, in the mentioned order. That means that you do not have to rely on asciibetical ordering of the patches and can easily disable patches, but you have to make sure to not forget to update 00list if you add a new patch.
[08:46] <pitti> (forgetting to update 00list is a common cause of followup uploads)
[08:46] <pitti>  * dpatch patches are actually scripts that are executed, not just patches fed to 'patch'. That means you can also do fancy things like calling autoconf or using sed in a dpatch if you want.
[08:47] <pitti> using dpatch for non-native patches is rare, and normally you do not need to worry about how a .dpatch file looks like
[08:47] <pitti> but I think it's important to mention it
[08:47] <pitti> so if you ever want to replace *all* instances of Debian with Ubuntu in all files, write a dpatch with a small shell script that uses sed
[08:47] <pitti> instead of doing a 300 KB static patch which won't apply to the next version anyway
[08:47] <pitti> The manpage is very good and has examples, too, so I will only give an example here:
[08:47] <Seveas> smart
[08:47] <pitti> This will edit an already existing patch and take care that all previous patches are applied in order:
[08:48] <pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/ed-0.2
[08:48] <pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch 05_ed.1-warning-fix
[08:48] <pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
[08:48] <pitti> so that's exactly like cdbs-edit-patch
[08:48] <pitti> well, dpatch-edit-patch even has shell completion (!)
[08:48] <pitti> s/shell/tab/
[08:48] <pitti> ok, now we edited a patch, that's pretty easy, right?
[08:49] <pitti> now let's create a new one; this is different from cdbs-e-p, due to the explicit '00list' file
[08:49] <pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch
[08:49] <pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
[08:49] <pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
[08:49] <pitti> ^ this will append 'foo.dpatch' to debian/patches/00list
[08:50] <pitti> This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch. If your patch is very confined and does not depend on other patches, you can leave out the second argument.
[08:50] <pitti> alright?
[08:50] <pitti> there is actually yet another patch system I wanted to introduce (quilt), but I'll skip this for time reasons
[08:51] <Seveas> you could continue after simon finished talking bugs
[08:51] <pitti> maybe we can get to that on Thursday, or I'll explain it separately
[08:51] <pitti> and there is existing documentation anyway
[08:51] <pitti> so, just some more theoretic words, which you can use to calm down your fingers :)
[08:51] <pitti> [08:52] <pitti> As you saw, Debian source packages do not have any requirements wrt. structure, patch systems, etc., other source package systems like SRPM are much stricter wrt that. This of course means more flexibility, but also much more learning overhead.
[08:52] <pitti> As a member of the security team I can tell tales of the pain of a gazillion different source package layouts... :)
[08:52] <pitti> Therefore some clever people sat together the other day to propose a new design which would both give us a new and unified source package and patch system that uses bzr (with a quilt-like workflow). This would also integrate packages and patches much better into Launchpad and revision control in general.
[08:52] <pitti> Please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages if you are interested in this.
[08:52] <pitti> ah, and of course:
[08:53] <pitti> [08:53] <pitti> (apart from the obligatory channel log from fabbione)
[08:53] <pitti> There is also a wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources which provides most of above information in a more convenient format. However, it might be slightly out of date (it's from dapper times). Feel free to update the page and and add missing bits.
[08:53] <jonh_wendell> pitti, we should add manually foo.dpatch in 00list, right?
[08:53] <pitti> so let's spend the rest of the time for Q&A
[08:53] <pitti> fire away :)
[08:53] <pitti> jonh_wendell: right
[08:53] <pitti> jonh_wendell: that's what I did with
   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
 ^ this will append 'foo.dpatch' to debian/patches/00list
[08:53] <at2000> what are pros and cons of quilt?
[08:54] <jonh_wendell> sorry
[08:54] <pitti> at2000: hm, matter of taste, mainly
[08:54] <pitti> at2000: the patching workflow is not really different
[08:55] <snail> pitti: wiki page looks really good
[08:55] <at2000> so why not just stick to cdbs, what most packages use?
[08:55] <pitti> the wiki page explains quilt as well, BTW
[08:55] <ajmitch> pitti: has there been any more progress on the NoMoreSourcePackages spec?
[08:55] <pitti> so if you got a general feeling for the topic now, you should be able to read the wiki page
[08:55] <pitti> at2000: we cannot prescribe Debian to change source packages to our wishes
[08:56] <pitti> at2000: also, cdbs is not the unanimous solution for Ubuntu devs either
[08:56] <pitti> some people really hate it
[08:56] <at2000> ic
[08:56] <pitti> ajmitch: bzr-wise, yes, but there's no LP support yet
[08:56] <pitti> ajmitch: and it won't come in the near future, there are much more pressing TODOs for soyuz ATM
[08:56] <pitti> I know it was hard stuff, I hope I didn't kill too many listeners
[08:56] <pitti> any feedback for me?
[08:57] <jonh_wendell> pitti, thank you
[08:57] <pitti> (but patching source packages is not easy...)
[08:57] <amnesia> pitti: you did good, thanks
[08:57] <pitti> amnesia: were you able to follow the examples? I didn't see many questions
[08:57] <snail> pitti: i know this is a little off topic, but what's the recommended form of documentation for packages (ANSI C, commandline app, internationalisation crucial) ?
[08:57] <pschulz01> pitti: I thought it was good.. I've bee through the wiki page, but the step by step examples with real packages was very useful.
[08:57] <Seveas> pitti, you were great :)
[08:57] <jonh_wendell> pitti, any talk about debdiff? is it a diff of a diff?
[08:58] <pitti> snail: that's a very broad question, let's do that in #u-c-chat
[08:58] <amnesia> pitti: I was just reading, I'm in CS/IT myself so it was enough for me, sorry
[08:58] <ajmitch> pitti: right, I hadn't seen any work done on the bzr plugin that I heard would only take a few days to do :)
[08:58] <pitti> jonh_wendell: 'debdiff' is a tool that gives you a diff between two complete source packages
[08:58] <thekorn> pitti: thanks nice job
[08:59] <pitti> jonh_wendell: so, if you debdiff two source packages which include patches, then yes, you'll get diffs of diffs
[08:59] <amnesia> pitti: but from my side, yes I could follow you pretty good :)
[08:59] <ajmitch> pitti: the session was good, for the bits I was watchign :)
[08:59] <pitti> thanks guys
[08:59] <at2000> thanks martin
[08:59] <jonh_wendell> 1 hour is very short :(
[09:00] <amnesia> yeah but it should be good for a starter
[09:00] <pitti> would it have been better to first explain the tools and then do the manual approach?
[09:01] <jonh_wendell> oh, we have one more talk, great
[09:01] <amnesia> pitti: thursday is the same?
[09:01] <pitti> amnesia: more or less
[09:01] <Seveas> pitti, no, doing manual first is definitely better
[09:01] <pitti> followup discussion of patch systems -> #ubuntu-classroom-chat, please
[09:01] <Seveas> then you know what the tools are magically doing
[09:01] <pitti> Seveas: that's what I thought, too
[09:02] <amnesia> pitti: I would keep this order
[09:02] <amnesia> yeah exactly
[09:02] <pitti> ok
[09:02] <pitti> thanks everyone
[09:02] <ajmitch> thanks pitti
[09:02] <jonh_wendell> thanks pitti !
[09:02] <amnesia> maybe point this out, that "you need to do this now to know what really needs to be done in the background"
[09:02] <pitti> amnesia: right
[09:03] <amnesia> and you always said it will just get easier :)
[09:04] <amnesia> so you made the listeners feel good, that's important
[09:05] <sfllaw> Good afternoon.
[09:06] <sfllaw> Welcome to my talk about the Ubuntu BugSquad.
[09:06] <Bourlotieris> hello
[09:06] <sfllaw> For the purposes of clarity, please limit discussions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  If you want to ask a question, just write "sfllaw: I have a question about..." in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll answer it at the approriate juncture.
[09:06] <sfllaw> Thanks!
[09:06] <sfllaw> ---------------------------------------
[09:06] <sfllaw> Ubuntu is one of the most popular GNU/Linux distributions out there.  And it also has one of the smallest development teams for its size.
[09:06] <sfllaw> The secret to this is huge community involvement.  We have hundreds of people who help with packaging, translations, technical writing, and bug management.
[09:07] <sfllaw> And boy do we have a lot of bugs.  About 300 to 400 new bug reports get filed every day from users, from stable releases like Dapper to bleeding edge stuff from Feisty.
[09:07] <sfllaw> The first people to look at these reports are the BugSquad.  We do a very important task, drinking from this firehose.  And that's to make sure that the reports that remain in the bug tracking system are useful.
[09:07] <sfllaw> You can find our bug tracking system at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[09:07] <sfllaw> Right now, it holds over 20000 open bug reports, spread across the entire distribution.  That includes main, restricted, universe, and multiverse.
[09:07] <sfllaw> That's a lot of bugs.  The source of these reports can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/yf4hq9
[09:07] <sfllaw> These are untriaged reports: ones which have never had a human eye look at them.  It's likely that they are missing information, duplicate another report, are filed against the wrong package, etc.  Or, if you're lucky, they're perfect.
[09:07] <sfllaw> :)
[09:08] <sfllaw> To triage a bug report, you need to do a few things.
[09:08] <sfllaw> First you have to determine if it's actually a bug.  The easiest ones have crash reports in them.  Let's go find one.
[09:08] <sfllaw> To start, we go to http://launchpad.net  Click on "The Ubuntu distribution"
[09:08] <sfllaw> In the search box, let's look for a popular package.  Bash is a good one to try, so let's ask for that.
[09:09] <sfllaw> Click on 'Source Package "bash" in Ubuntu' to be taken to its package page.
[09:09] <sfllaw> This shows you Bash within the context of the Ubuntu distribution.  Bash also has another page, a product page, which we won't look at right now.
[09:09] <sfllaw> In the left sidebar, you should see a "Bugs" link.  Click on that and you'll be taken to the bug tracker.  This will list all the bugs inside bash right now.
[09:09] <sfllaw> There are quite a few untriaged bugs, but they are intermixed with triaged ones.  Let's narrow down our search to only show untriaged ones.  Start by clicking the "Advanced search" link.
[09:09] <sfllaw> You want to make sure that:
[09:09] <sfllaw>   Status = Unconfirmed only
[09:09] <sfllaw>   Importance = Undecided only
[09:09] <sfllaw>   Assignee = Nobody
[09:10] <sfllaw> Click the "Search" button.
[09:10] <sfllaw> You should end up at http://tinyurl.com/yawhpj which gives you a nice list of bugs to look at.
[09:10] <sfllaw> Bug 57413 looks like a promising crash.  Click on its description and it will open up.  You can also get to this bug by going to http://launchpad.net/bugs/57413
[09:10] <sfllaw> You see that the bug reporter has included his crash dump, which was caught by apport, our automated crash profiler.  But Longer hasn't really given us enough information to solve the problem.
[09:11] <sfllaw> Here's the minimum information for a complete bug report:
[09:11] <sfllaw>   1. Version of the software.  Is it in Dapper, Edgy, Feisty?  What about a specific version number?
[09:11] <sfllaw>   2. Steps to reproduce the bug.
[09:11] <sfllaw>   3. What was expected to happen.
[09:11] <sfllaw>   4. What actually happened.
[09:11] <sfllaw> Since this bug is incomplete, we'll want to ask for more information.  You do that by taking responsibility for the bug and having a conversation with the reporter.
[09:11] <sfllaw> Implicitly, we know the answers to 3 and 4, because Bash crashed unexpectedly.
[09:12] <sfllaw> And the crash report has the version of bash buried inside (3.1-5ubuntu1).
[09:12] <sfllaw> Still, we need to ask for reproduction steps.
[09:12] <sfllaw> If you're logged in, you can click on the "bash (Ubuntu)" task table up near the top.  This allows you to modify the state of the bug.
[09:12] <sfllaw> There are some fields there:
[09:12] <sfllaw>   Package: this is the source package of the bug.  Bash is correct for this one.
[09:12] <sfllaw>   Status: change this to Needs Info.  This means other people won't try to triage this bug.
[09:12] <sfllaw>   Assigned to: Me.  You're claiming responsibility for having a conversation with the reporter.
[09:12] <sfllaw>   Comment on this change: Here we should ask the reporter for more information.
[09:12] <sfllaw>   E-mail me about changes to this bug report: Yes.  This will subscribe you to any new comments about this report.
[09:13] <sfllaw> shawarma points out that apport, which generated this crash dump, wasn't in Dapper.
[09:13] <sfllaw> So it must be an Edgy bug.
[09:13] <sfllaw> But apport also tells you the difference between an Edgy bug and a Feisty bug.
[09:14] <sfllaw> at2000 asks: who should modify these fields?
[09:14] <pitti> (in the DistroRelease: field)
[09:14] <sfllaw> You, as the triager, get to set these fields.
[09:15] <at2000> so someone officially in the BugSqad team?
[09:15] <sfllaw> Yes.  In fact, you get to set them before you join BugSquad.
[09:15] <sfllaw> Although it's good form to be know how to change them properly before you start doing so.  :)
[09:15] <at2000> ic
[09:16] <sfllaw> But that's why you're here!
[09:16] <sfllaw> So...
[09:16] <sfllaw> You've set the proper meta-data on the bug and have taken responsibility.
[09:16] <sfllaw> In the comment, we would ask for the version of Bash:
[09:16] <sfllaw>   "Hi Longer.  Could you please describe the precise steps you performed to crash bash?  Thanks."
[09:16] <sfllaw> Click "Save Changes" and you're done.
[09:16] <sfllaw> When you get an e-mail from Longer responding to your question with the appropriate steps, the bug can be considered complete.  You've got information on how to reproduce it and there's even a handy log file for a developer to look at.
[09:17] <sfllaw> We can now pass this on to the development team to fix.
[09:17] <sfllaw> Click "bash (Ubuntu)" again and change:
[09:17] <sfllaw>   Status = Confirmed
[09:17] <sfllaw>   Assigned to = Nobody
[09:17] <sfllaw> Click "Save Changes".
[09:18] <sfllaw> rulus asks: where ends the task of the Bug Squad team? here?
[09:18] <sfllaw> The BugSquad team actually works on all parts of bugs.
[09:18] <sfllaw> However, the job of a triager ends here.
[09:18] <rulus> ah, ok
[09:18] <sfllaw> Basically, it's like the first response you get at a hospital.
[09:19] <rulus> i see
[09:19] <sfllaw> You want to manage the huge flow of incoming bugs so that people fixing them aren't overwhelmed.
[09:20] <sfllaw> La_PaRCa asks: is it part of the triager work to mark duplicates?
[09:20] <sfllaw> Yes, it is.
[09:20] <sfllaw> I'm going to get to that later.
[09:20] <sfllaw> Let's say you encounter a bug report that isn't a bug at all.
[09:21] <sfllaw> Perhaps it is a user asking for help on installing software.  Like a request to be taught how to use synaptic.
[09:21] <sfllaw> Or perhaps it is a user asking for a new feature to be implemented.
[09:22] <siretart> 
[09:22] <sfllaw> You can distinguish between features and bugs this way.
[09:22] <sfllaw> A feature request is a wish for new functionality that the program isn't expected to do.
[09:23] <sfllaw> Whereas a bug is where the program fails in some way.  It obviously should be doing something more correct.
[09:23] <sfllaw> You can respond to these by:
[09:23] <sfllaw> Setting Status = Rejected
[09:23] <sfllaw> And writing them a nice note in the comment explaining why it was not a valid bug.
[09:24] <sfllaw> You can get templates of these nice notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[09:24] <sfllaw> But you are welcome to put in your own personal touches.  Just remember to be friendly and polite, not terse.
[09:24] <sfllaw> Smiffeh asks: should you build up some serious experience with triaging before you apply to join the bugsquad?
[09:25] <sfllaw> No, you don't have to.  You can start in BugSquad right now.
[09:25] <sfllaw> Acceptance is automatic and we'd love to teach you the ropes.
[09:25] <sfllaw> Bourlotieris asks: I have a question about how do you join the Bugsquad team
[09:26] <sfllaw> You can join by:
[09:26] <sfllaw> - Joining the #ubuntu-bugs channel
[09:26] <sfllaw> - Getting a Launchpad account
[09:26] <sfllaw> - Applying to enter at https://launchpad.net/people/bugsquad
[09:27] <sfllaw> Grishkin asks: Is there a special ubuntu team for making new bugs?
[09:27] <Grishkin> :)
[09:27] <sfllaw> In order to report a bug, you don't need anything but a Launchpad account.
[09:27] <sfllaw> See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for how to file a bug report
[09:28] <sfllaw> davmor2 asks: do you need any technical or programing skills to join the bug squad
[09:28] <sfllaw> It helps, but you don't have to.
[09:29] <sfllaw> Even if you understand nothing about computers, there are some bugs that you can help out with.
[09:29] <sfllaw> They may be more difficult to find, but we are working on making it simpler.
[09:29] <sfllaw> For instance, you can verify that "yes, there is a typo in this documentation".
[09:29] <sfllaw> And you can try to reproduce bugs.
[09:29] <sfllaw> And gather debugging information that users haven't yet provided.
[09:30] <sfllaw> Another way to help out if you don't have a lot of technical knowledge, but enough to understand how a program _should_ work, is to look for duplicates.
[09:30] <davmor2> sfllaw: that was where I was assuming you may need some skills knowing what to ask for
[09:31] <sfllaw> In order to gather debugging information, you will want to read the http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebugginProcedures page.
[09:31] <sfllaw> It describes various procedures for various packages.
[09:31] <sfllaw> We add documentation to that all the time.
[09:31] <sfllaw> And we'd love it if other people helped add to it as well.
[09:31] <rulus> it's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[09:32] <sfllaw> Curse my poor speeling.
[09:32] <sfllaw> Moving on...
[09:32] <sfllaw> A large class of reports are duplicates.  These are filed by people who did not look or could not find a bug report identical to their problem.  So they filed a new one.  But looking through the bug tracking system, we can spot quite a few if we take some time.
[09:32] <sfllaw> For instance, let's look at the Totem's list of bugs: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/totem/+bugs
[09:32] <sfllaw> There's a bug about screen blanking while watching movies, http://launchpad.net/bugs/66257
[09:32] <sfllaw> It has one bug marked as duplicate.  You can find a list of duplicates in the left sidebar.  That one is http://launchpad.net/bugs/73029
[09:33] <sfllaw> If someone filed a new bug that was exactly the same as this one, you could click on the "Mark as Duplicate" link in the left sidebar, and enter "66257" as the bug number.
[09:33] <sfllaw> You can find new bugs by looking at the big list of untriaged bugs.
[09:33] <sfllaw> Or you can join #ubuntu-bugs and listen as Ubugtu rattles off new bugs every few minutes.
[09:33] <sfllaw> It says things like this:
[09:34] <sfllaw> New bug: #73643 in gaim (main) "Gaim crashes while getting roomlist" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73643
[09:34] <sfllaw> This tells you that a new bug has been filed for the gaim source package.
[09:34] <sfllaw> Gaim lives in main.
[09:34] <sfllaw> And provides a description of what's wrong.
[09:34] <sfllaw> Plus a handy URL to the bug.
[09:35] <sfllaw> samge1 asks: should trivial bugs (like a typo) be submitted as a  bug or is it better fix them right away somehow (like a new suggestion for a translation)?
[09:35] <sfllaw> It is best to file a bug report and point to a fix.
[09:36] <sfllaw> This fix could be a new translation in Rosetta, or a patch attached to the bug report.
[09:36] <sfllaw> This way, your fix doesn't get lost if it is a priority.
[09:36] <sfllaw> If you are a developer, you are encouraged to use bugs to manage your fixes, even if you can uploda packages into Ubuntu.
[09:36] <sfllaw> That way, you don't forget what's on your TODO list.
[09:38] <sfllaw> finalbeta asks: What bugs should we report, I've reported hardware bugs (none got fixed), small software bugs (none get fixed), I've reported +-30 bugs in the last few months and only one crasher got fixed. Yet it will take 6 months before the fix will show up (in the next release). What bugs are the ubuntu people capable of handling?, should we just go upstream whenever possible? In short I mean, I should not bother reporting fglrx / a
[09:38] <sfllaw> It is worth reporting bugs both to Ubuntu and to upstream.
[09:38] <sfllaw> In fact, our bug tracking system has the capability to track upstream bugs.
[09:38] <mcg> ?
[09:39] <sfllaw> Ubuntu developers don't have a lot of resources, so we prefer to let upstream authors fix bugs unless they are critical.
[09:39] <amnesia> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[09:39] <sfllaw> But we use the bug tracking system to monitor upstream bugs.  If an upstream has fixed something major, we will often backport that fix.
[09:39] <amnesia> sorry
[09:40] <sfllaw> The goal of a triager is to reduce the clutter in the bug tracking system.
[09:40] <sfllaw> You shouldn't be closing old bugs, as they might still be useful and relevant.
[09:40] <mcg> quit
[09:40] <mcg> exit
[09:40] <sfllaw> But new bugs coming in should be examined for duplicates.
[09:41] <sfllaw> This reduces the clutter in the bug tracking system.  You want to choose the definitive bug with the most complete information, and make all the other duplicates refer to it.  If information is scattered around, you can edit the description of the definitive bug.
[09:41] <LjL> mcg: /quit is the command you type if you want to leave the server, /part if you want to leave the channel
[09:41] <sfllaw> The description of a bug is mutable, so that you can summarize the discussion held in the comments.
[09:41] <sfllaw> This is really useful because difficult bugs may have pages and pages of comments.
[09:42] <sfllaw> Any bug can have its description edited, and a good summary saves people a lot of time sifting through the conversation.
[09:42] <sfllaw> To change the description, click the "Edit Description/Tags" link in the sidebar.  Try to clean up the description with a good summary of: Version, Reproduction steps, Expected result, Actual result, and a Diagnosis of the problem.
[09:42] <sfllaw> You should also make sure the Summary is something useful, so people browsing for duplicates can find a relevant bug easily.
[09:42] <sfllaw> Bad descriptions are: "Program crashes."
[09:42] <sfllaw> Good descriptions are: "Program crashes with 'Error 12: Can't find my brain on line 382.'"
[09:42] <sfllaw> A good description is easily searchable using keywords people would think of.
[09:43] <sfllaw> And error messages are good because they are often unique to the problem.
[09:43] <sfllaw> Click "Change" after updating the text.
[09:43] <TheCode> nabend!
[09:43] <sfllaw> a7p asks: what about #27810 - should this one be closed? Who does it if it should be done?
[09:44] <sfllaw> This is a good example of how Ubuntu bugs can be tied to upstream bugs.
[09:44] <sfllaw> If you look at the task table, you'll see three different lines.
[09:45] <sfllaw> libaio (Ubuntu)
[09:45] <sfllaw> upstart (Ubuntu)
[09:45] <sfllaw> libaio (Debian)
[09:45] <sfllaw> So the first two have to do with Ubuntu packages.
[09:45] <sfllaw> And the third has to do with Debian ones.
[09:45] <sfllaw> If I were going through this bug doing triage right now, I'd do the following things.
[09:45] <sfllaw> - Realize that it has nothing to do with upstart, and reject it.
[09:46] <sfllaw>   To do this, I click on the upstart (Ubuntu) task and set its status to Rejected.
[09:46] <sfllaw>   Like so.
[09:47] <sfllaw> - Notice that Fabio claims that this isn't a problem in Ubuntu because the brokenness was never imported.
[09:47] <sfllaw> - Test to make sure I cannot reproduce the problem.
[09:47] <sfllaw>   If everything works properly, I set libaio (Ubuntu)'s status to Rejected.
[09:48] <sfllaw> In order to add upstream tasks, you will note two links under the task table:
[09:48] <sfllaw> "Also affects: +Upstream... +Distribution..."
[09:48] <sfllaw> If a bug affects another distribution like Fedora, Guadalinux, or Debian, with its own packages, use the +Distribution link.
[09:49] <sfllaw> If a bug is caused by an upstream program's misbehaviour and is not a packaging bug, use the +Upstream link.
[09:50] <sfllaw> You will have to file the bug in the other bug tracker, but then you can paste that bug's URL in to the "Request fix in a..." page, which will link the bugs together.
[09:50] <sfllaw> Every day, the status of this bug will be updated with the upstream's status.
[09:50] <sfllaw> Plus, you can search for bugs which have been fixed by upstream.
[09:50] <sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  What is your description of security?  would it be the root password problem a while ago
[09:51] <sfllaw> A security bug is one that allows local or remote users to access data or privileges that they shouldn't normally be able to.
[09:51] <sfllaw> This definition is a bit flexible and up the discretion of the security team.
[09:51] <pitti> breezy's user password exposure definitively falls into this category
[09:51] <sfllaw> If you file a security bug, only the people subscribed to it will be able to see it.
[09:52] <sfllaw> rulus asks: how do you know it also affexts upstream?
[09:52] <pitti> sfllaw's definition is pretty good; I'd extend it to 'or allows a local/remote user to bring down a service'
[09:52] <keescook> the wiki page SecurityUpdateProcedures has some examples of what can qualify, too.
[09:53] <sfllaw> It's easy to tell whether a bug is caused by us.
[09:54] <sfllaw> if a package doesn't install, the description is incorrect, or something doesn't show up in a menu, then it's probably Ubuntu's fault.
[09:54] <sfllaw> If a program crashes or misbehaves, it's probably an upstream problem.  Especially if Google tells you that people using other distributions have the same problem.
[09:54] <rulus> ok, i see
[09:55] <sfllaw> It is usually a good idea to Google for your bug to see if:
[09:55] <sfllaw> - You can find other people with your problem.  Often, these things will show up on newsgroups or forums (like the Ubuntu Forums)
[09:55] <sfllaw> - You can find a bug in our bug tracking system already.
[09:56] <sfllaw> - You can find a bug in someone else's bug tracking system (like Debian, Fedora, OpenSuSE, etc.)
[09:56] <sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  does this mean you need to be running bugzilla too in order to cross reference?
[09:56] <sfllaw> You don't have to sign up for other people's Bugzilla if you don't want to.
[09:56] <sfllaw> You can concentrate on whatever packages you like.
[09:57] <sfllaw> But if you want to pitch in for a few days to help with Firefox bugs, you should probably sign up for the Firefox Bugzilla, so you can report bugs to them.
[09:57] <sfllaw> It makes a lot of sense to concentrate on a set of packages.  You can quickly become a local expert in some software.
[09:58] <sfllaw> davmor2 asks:  I have reported a lot of bugs which have been marked as duplicates due to me not being able to find anything similar is there a way to better search for a bug?
[09:58] <davmor2> sfllaw: I meant more to cross reference an ubuntu bug with a redhat bug
[09:59] <sfllaw> To cross-reference with Red Hat, you should have a Red Hat bugzilla account to file bugs into their system.
[09:59] <sfllaw> If the bug already exists, linking them together is free.
[09:59] <davmor2> okay
[09:59] <sfllaw> But to be polite, you should comment in the Fedora bug with the URL to the Ubuntu one.
[09:59] <sfllaw> That way, our distributions can work together to fix things.
[09:59] <sfllaw> For your other question about duplicates...
[09:59] <rasman> I had a problem with a new ATI card, how would I report a bug like that?  How would it be addressed?
[10:00] <davmor2> makes sense more devs that way
[10:00] <sfllaw> I've found the best way is to use Google.
[10:00] <Amaranth> haha, use Google to find launchpad bugs :)
[10:01] <sfllaw> But to be sure, I often browse all open bugs for a particular package and look for potential descriptions to match.
[10:01] <sfllaw> If you spend lots of time on a package, you will remember things that are similar.
[10:01] <sfllaw> Sadly, search in Launchpad is not as good as it could be.
[10:01] <sfllaw> We're running short on time.
[10:01] <sfllaw> For more information, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs which describes how to help with bugs and how to join the BugSquad.
[10:01] <sfllaw> We hang out in the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.
[10:01] <sfllaw> You can find help and encouragement (and hugs) there all the time.
[10:01] <sfllaw> Finally, I want to point out that we have an *UbuntuHugDay* scheduled for tomorrow.  If you want to start helping with bugs, that would be a great time to pitch in.
[10:02] <sfllaw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHugDay
[10:02] <sfllaw> Thanks everybody!
[10:02] <sfllaw> We're out of time so I'll field questions in #ubuntu-bugs.
[10:02] <rulus> thanks for the explanation!
[10:02] <amnesia> sfllaw: good session
[10:02] <Cieffe> thanks sfllaw
[10:02] <La_PaRCa> sfllaw, thanks a lot
[10:02] <davmor2> sfllaw no next setion listed
[10:03] <sfllaw> Well, I guess I should close up shop.
[10:03] <sfllaw> nalioth: Ping? ^^^
[10:04] <nalioth> sfllaw: thanks for your time  :) we do love information  :)
[10:04] <davmor2> thanks
[10:04] <alefteris> thanks :)
[10:04] <Bourlotieris> Thank you, most compact session today
[10:05] <samge1> thanks man
[10:05] <silwol> thx sfllaw
[10:10] <kalon33> thanks sfllaw
[10:29] <tuxar> thanks for all you do for us !
[10:47] <test> quit
[10:48] <metatecque> test: you need to put a slash before quit if you want to quit