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| shwag | regarding https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/serverguide/C/network-configuration.html | 02:07 |
|---|---|---|
| shwag | shouldnt the example block starting with "iface eth1 inet static" include the "auto eth1" line as the example above it does ? | 02:07 |
| robotgeek | one sec | 02:07 |
| robotgeek | yes, if you want it to come up at boot | 02:09 |
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| poolkey172 | anyone home ? | 08:31 |
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| mdke | morning | 08:48 |
| mdke | Laser_away: sure, I guess so. Go ahead and add it to the page | 08:49 |
| Burgundavia | morning mdke | 08:49 |
| Burgundavia | Mako has a good blog post, no? | 08:49 |
| mdke | I need to read it | 08:50 |
| mdke | nixternal: still breaking string freeze!!?? | 08:50 |
| mdke | Burgundavia: yes. I agree completely | 08:51 |
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| Burgundavia | robotgeek: why are you not on planet.ubuntu ? | 08:55 |
| mdke | Burgundavia: do you know if there is anyone actually in favour of shipping binary drivers? | 08:58 |
| mdke | all the developers I've seen comment are against it | 08:58 |
| Burgundavia | Mark and the beryl people | 08:58 |
| mdke | Mark? | 08:58 |
| Burgundavia | sabdfl | 08:59 |
| mdke | oh god | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | that was apparently how it broke down at UDS | 08:59 |
| Burgundavia | nobody else would have the power to make it go on this long | 08:59 |
| mdke | strange. | 08:59 |
| mdke | he knows full well that if free software is to succeed, it has to do it on its own terms, not by giving up in certain areas | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | jono and I talked about it | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | he and Mark seemed to be concerned we need to do this to "achieve parity" with other OSes | 09:00 |
| Burgundavia | basically, if it is not beautiful, they won't come | 09:01 |
| mdke | Yeah, I know the argument | 09:01 |
| mdke | That doesn't work, I don't think | 09:01 |
| mdke | it runs up against the slippery slope problem | 09:02 |
| Burgundavia | I argued that we can cleanup our icons and make better artwork and win more people over | 09:02 |
| Burgundavia | plus, if we are going to further go down that path, it strikes me we should be solving the multimedia issue before the bling one | 09:02 |
| mdke | users will come to expect us to ship non-free software to compete, and we'll come to depend on it | 09:02 |
| Mithrandir | drivers have always been special, though | 09:03 |
| Burgundavia | yes, they have | 09:03 |
| Burgundavia | however, Mako makes an excellent point about just working != extra bling | 09:03 |
| Mithrandir | it's a fine line to draw. | 09:04 |
| Burgundavia | something I said to Jono when we talked on Sunday | 09:04 |
| Mithrandir | (is dual screen working bling or not?) | 09:04 |
| Burgundavia | and Jono pointed that out. For some, just working == bling | 09:04 |
| mdke | coming to depend on non-free software is really dangerous though, not just for our own sake, but also because it doesn't give those who won't open up the incentive to change | 09:04 |
| mdke | and to see that free software can work as a model | 09:04 |
| mdke | if Mark believes that it can work, he should stick to it | 09:05 |
| Burgundavia | however, I still hold that if we are going to sacrifice our freedom further, we should solve the multimedia issue first | 09:05 |
| mdke | well, we are solving it | 09:05 |
| mdke | install on demand for codecs is a solution | 09:06 |
| Burgundavia | we can do the same for drivers then | 09:06 |
| mdke | 100% agreed | 09:06 |
| crimsun | I've always found it interesting that people are willing to "look the other way" for, say, wifi drivers | 09:07 |
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| mdke | that's true. | 09:07 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: changing the subject, any ideas on that freeze thing? | 09:10 |
| Mithrandir | mdke: for stable releases, I think we should require that any string changes are either accompanied by translation updates (for non-typo fixes) | 09:12 |
| Mithrandir | or are just typo fixes, in which case the translation ought to not have the typo | 09:12 |
| Mithrandir | for normal string freezes, I think having the same rules in effect, but be a bit more lax in what updates we accept. | 09:14 |
| Mithrandir | (the stable updates have to go through the full SRU procedure which is enough, I believe) | 09:14 |
| Mithrandir | mdke: ^^ thoughts? | 09:14 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: just reminding myself of what the SRU procedure is | 09:16 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: string changes don't satisfy anything in the "When" section | 09:17 |
| Mithrandir | instructions which are directly harmful is an example of the last one. | 09:17 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: ah, ok. So only things like that | 09:18 |
| mdke | that sounds sensible | 09:18 |
| Mithrandir | you could argue a glaring typo (think misspelling "Ubuntu" in the main help title) is a severe regression from the previous release. | 09:18 |
| Mithrandir | apart from those kind of things, I don't think stable releases should be updated. They're released, after all. | 09:19 |
| mdke | yeah, ok. | 09:19 |
| mdke | the procedure for determining which bugs can be addressed in the unstable release? | 09:20 |
| Burgundavia | sru | 09:21 |
| mdke | eh? | 09:22 |
| mdke | that's a bit stiff | 09:22 |
| Mithrandir | string freeze is about three weeks prior to release (for edgy), about a month and a half prior to release for feisty, so the procedure could be roughly what it is for other package updates: - maintainer's call until the archive's frozen (but soliciting input from a release team member is of course of), - release manager's call after that. | 09:22 |
| mdke | sounds fine. | 09:23 |
| Mithrandir | we don't want to freeze it too deeply too early; if so, the freezes are useless (since they'll be equivalent for a release, from a string pov) | 09:23 |
| mdke | what were you going to say after "is of course of" | 09:23 |
| Mithrandir | s/of/ok/ | 09:24 |
| Mithrandir | so "is of course ok" | 09:24 |
| mdke | gotcha | 09:24 |
| mdke | thanks for your help | 09:25 |
| === Burgundavia stirs the pot | ||
| Mithrandir | we need to write this down as a procedure somewhere, probably on the StringFreeze page; can one of you do that? | 09:25 |
| mdke | sure | 09:25 |
| Mithrandir | I'll be happy to review it to make sure it matches my interpretation of what we agreed to. | 09:26 |
| mdke | i've started doing that | 09:26 |
| Mithrandir | excellent, thanks. Please ping me when it's shaping up. | 09:26 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: ping | 09:28 |
| Mithrandir | oh, you're quick. *chuckles* | 09:28 |
| mdke | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationStringFreeze | 09:28 |
| Mithrandir | how do we communicate with translators to ensure they get the message about updates? | 09:29 |
| mdke | by mailing list | 09:30 |
| mdke | I'll add that | 09:30 |
| Mithrandir | hmm, we understood that you wanted just one string freeze, not a docstringfreeze and a stringfreeze when we did the release schedule. Is that wrong? | 09:32 |
| mdke | I haven't heard anything about that | 09:34 |
| mdke | traditionally DocumentationStringFreeze has always been separate to the programs string freeze | 09:34 |
| mdke | but since StringFreeze seems quite late, it sounds fine to me to have them at the same time | 09:35 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: the only problem might be where an application changes a string and this affects the documentation. That's the case with menu entries. | 09:39 |
| mdke | it would be nice to get warning of late-ish changes of that nature | 09:39 |
| mdke | still, since in the past docSF seems to have come before normal SF, I suppose this is an improvement :) | 09:41 |
| Mithrandir | mdke: I'll be happy to work with you on finding something which works for you; I must say I'm fairly string-ignorant myself so it's not one of the itches I scratch.. | 09:50 |
| mdke | Mithrandir: alright, thanks. Let's leave it like this and see | 09:52 |
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| jsgotangco | ive transferred ownership of ubuntu-doc in lp to mdke just fyi | 02:00 |
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| robotgeek | Burgundavia: i emailed Jeff Waugh a couple of times, but i got no response. i just gave up | 03:45 |
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| nixternal | mdke: the only reason i did that is because we don't ship nor translate that doc | 05:04 |
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| shwag | it would be nice if /etc/network/interfaces by default had a bunch of commented out lines showing how to do basic things like a static ip address assignment. | 07:11 |
| LaserJock | I suppose the idea is that you shouldn't have to mess around with it unless you know what you're doing | 07:12 |
| LaserJock | but I don't find that we are quite there :-) | 07:12 |
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| LaserJock | nixternal: ping | 08:07 |
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| LaserJock | mdke: ping | 08:23 |
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| mdke | LaserJock: hello? | 08:48 |
| mdke | nixternal: ah, I didn't realise it wasn't shipped. In that case, it shouldn't even be in the branch | 08:49 |
| LaserJock | mdke: hmm, what was I going to say | 08:49 |
| LaserJock | oh yeah | 08:49 |
| LaserJock | did you do a spec for building doc team tools? | 08:49 |
| mdke | LaserJock: yes, I mailed it to you! Lemme dig it out | 08:50 |
| mdke | LaserJock: it needs a lot of work. | 08:51 |
| mdke | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/simplify-ubuntu-docs-build-process <- LaserJock | 08:51 |
| LaserJock | I found it | 08:52 |
| LaserJock | ok, I wanted to add it to my todo list | 08:52 |
| mdke | wow! | 08:52 |
| LaserJock | but I couldn't remember if we had a spec for it or not | 08:53 |
| mdke | one often requested feature is to add support for individual translation maintainers to import a single language. We'll have to look at adding that | 08:53 |
| mdke | let's work together. It's already a lot better than it was for Edgy | 08:53 |
| mdke | {everyone} the presentation is starting soon for the Open Week. Who is attending? | 08:53 |
| LaserJock | I'll be around | 08:53 |
| LaserJock | well, I see what I can do | 08:54 |
| LaserJock | I already have a ton of things to do for Feisty | 08:55 |
| mdke | sure | 08:55 |
| LaserJock | trying to make core-dev soonish | 08:55 |
| mdke | we'll prioritise parts of it | 08:55 |
| mdke | ah, nice. About time | 08:55 |
| LaserJock | anyway, at least finishing a spec of and writing down what we want | 08:55 |
| LaserJock | we can even get some interested person to do the actual coding | 08:56 |
| LaserJock | if we don't have time to do it all | 08:56 |
| mdke | yeah | 08:56 |
| LaserJock | but I do enjoy doing this shell/python scripting stuff | 08:56 |
| mdke | do you know how to get shell scripts to take arguments? | 08:57 |
| LaserJock | sure | 08:57 |
| mdke | ok, that should be enough :) | 08:57 |
| LaserJock | python has better handling of them | 08:57 |
| LaserJock | but it's certainly possible in a shell script | 08:57 |
| LaserJock | much of /usr/bin is a shell script ;-) | 08:57 |
| mdke | ok. It's mainly debian/rules and the translate.sh scripts that need work | 08:57 |
| LaserJock | yeah, I think a good general approach is to write some individual shell scripts | 08:58 |
| LaserJock | that do a particular task, like translate.sh | 08:58 |
| LaserJock | and then pull them all together in a nice package with python | 08:58 |
| LaserJock | in MOTU we have something similar | 08:58 |
| mdke | oh bloody hell. The open week presentation is tomorrow, not today. | 08:59 |
| LaserJock | oh | 08:59 |
| === mdke smacks | ||
| LaserJock | oh right, simon's on now | 08:59 |
| mdke | yeah | 08:59 |
| mdke | alright, I'll do something else this evening then | 08:59 |
| mdke | cya soon! | 09:00 |
| LaserJock | cya | 09:00 |
| Burgwork | mdke: how do you edit the fridge calendar? | 09:04 |
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| nixternal | LaserJock: pong? | 09:08 |
| LaserJock | nixternal: regarding bzr | 09:08 |
| nixternal | did i break it? | 09:08 |
| LaserJock | bzr checks out the entire history of the repo | 09:08 |
| LaserJock | svn doesn't | 09:08 |
| nixternal | ahh | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | so that's why it is slower to grab and larger | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | but the whole history of the repo is local | 09:09 |
| nixternal | ok, so say for instance, i do a booboo and commit to the dapper repo, i can bzr revert it instantly ? | 09:09 |
| nixternal | ;) | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | yes | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | at least locally | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | you commit locally | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | publish remotely | 09:09 |
| nixternal | if you branch you commit locally | 09:09 |
| nixternal | if you checkout you commit regular | 09:09 |
| LaserJock | right | 09:10 |
| LaserJock | bzr can basically be run in an "SVN" mode | 09:10 |
| nixternal | ya, that is the same as doing a checkout | 09:10 |
| nixternal | i have Ichthux branched, or used to branch, and i would commit locally and then push | 09:11 |
| nixternal | my only issue with Bazaar would be 1) To slow, and 2) Space consuming | 09:11 |
| nixternal | s/issue/issues | 09:11 |
| LaserJock | on the other hand | 09:11 |
| LaserJock | you can go to a computer that has fast internet and download the repo to a usb stick | 09:12 |
| LaserJock | and you have the complete history with you | 09:12 |
| nixternal | i have an 8mb down connection, is that fast enough? | 09:12 |
| nixternal | and it still took over an hour to do a checkout | 09:12 |
| LaserJock | yep | 09:12 |
| LaserJock | but we can also make a tarball | 09:12 |
| nixternal | the problem isn't bandwidth, i can tell you that now | 09:12 |
| nixternal | i sniffed packets and watched them drop constantly at the bazaar server | 09:13 |
| LaserJock | the easiest thing for people to use would be a tarball of the repo | 09:13 |
| LaserJock | yeah, there's some issues for sure | 09:14 |
| LaserJock | for a long time (not sure if it still does it) bzr would die on my home DSL router | 09:14 |
| LaserJock | because it made so many DNS requests | 09:14 |
| LaserJock | so a bzr branch would fail 4 out of 5 times | 09:14 |
| nixternal | ya, it is quite horrid..but i think as soon as they get that fixed it will rock on..definitely a bright future for it | 09:16 |
| LaserJock | yes, I think between the latest releases of bzr and having access to bazaar.launchpad.net we might be able to make it work | 09:17 |
| LaserJock | the nice thing about bazaar.launchpad.net is we have an easy way to control access | 09:17 |
| nixternal | w/o a doubt that is a nice thing about it | 09:17 |
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| LaserJock | however, svn has been working fine for us so far, with the exception of access control | 09:18 |
| nixternal | well, access control hasn't been that big of an issue has it? mdke pretty much requests it through rt and boom usually within a day it is taken care of | 09:19 |
| LaserJock | it certainly wasn't always that way | 09:20 |
| LaserJock | it took me something like a month to get mine | 09:21 |
| LaserJock | but that's way back when elmo did everything | 09:21 |
| nixternal | ya | 09:22 |
| LaserJock | I'm not really sure why Riddell is pushing bzr so much | 09:22 |
| nixternal | what is cool with Bazaar is you can sign your commits and everythign just like you would packaging | 09:22 |
| LaserJock | I know he lost his svn password | 09:22 |
| nixternal | hehe | 09:22 |
| LaserJock | but surely he can get that back | 09:22 |
| nixternal | well, i think the Bazaar push might be coming from higher maybe? I know pretty much every project is utilizing it to some extent | 09:23 |
| nixternal | uniformity | 09:23 |
| dsas | possibly it's just easier to only have to remember one RCS. | 09:23 |
| LaserJock | perhaps | 09:23 |
| nixternal | dsas: that is true...i started checking out instead of branching with bzr to make it more svn like | 09:23 |
| LaserJock | but KDE isn't using bzr | 09:24 |
| LaserJock | so I would think he'd be used to using svn anyway | 09:24 |
| nixternal | well KDE isn't "buntu" either | 09:24 |
| LaserJock | sure | 09:24 |
| LaserJock | but I'm just saying for him I'd bet he still uses svn a fair amount | 09:24 |
| nixternal | i know that Riddell uses bzr for the kubuntu-default-settings | 09:24 |
| LaserJock | well, bzr should be used for most ubuntu packaging tasks | 09:25 |
| nixternal | of course...he does a lot of committing to KDE, so he is using svn like mad on a daily basis | 09:25 |
| LaserJock | that's pretty normal | 09:25 |
| LaserJock | anyway | 09:25 |
| LaserJock | I know there is a push for us to use bzr | 09:25 |
| LaserJock | and I like it | 09:25 |
| LaserJock | but IMO it just doesn't seem to fit our repo well | 09:25 |
| LaserJock | we don't really need the decentralized aspects | 09:26 |
| LaserJock | the only nice thing I can see is using the LP team for access control | 09:26 |
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| nixternal | ya...i am for whatever works honestly | 09:27 |
| nixternal | svn works and so does bzr..i will let the politicians choose | 09:28 |
| LaserJock | :-) | 09:28 |
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| Mithrandir | LaserJock: you're aware that bzr can check out svn directly? | 10:49 |
| LaserJock | how so? | 10:49 |
| LaserJock | bzr can checkout a svn repo? | 10:49 |
| Mithrandir | install bzr-svn, do bzr branch svn+ssh://host/repo | 10:49 |
| LaserJock | hmm | 10:49 |
| LaserJock | I don't know if that's be much help to us | 10:50 |
| LaserJock | perhaps | 10:50 |
| LaserJock | that's a very cool idea | 10:50 |
| Mithrandir | oh, more as a comment to the "but riddell has to use svn anyway" bit you said. | 10:50 |
| LaserJock | ah | 10:50 |
| LaserJock | yes, that makes sense | 10:50 |
| mdke | Burgwork: add an event | 10:55 |
| mdke | Burgwork: or edit an existing one | 10:55 |
| Burgwork | ok, I will add another one | 10:56 |
| Burgwork | mdke: do I need a body? | 10:58 |
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| mdke | Burgwork: yeah, it's desirable, although not technically necessary | 10:59 |
| Burgwork | ok | 11:00 |
| mdke | nixternal: note that you can also use revert with svn | 11:01 |
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| mdke | what do people think of the categories on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp? Any ideas for reshuffling/adding/removing them? | 11:16 |
| LaserJock | seems good to me | 11:18 |
| stelis | Perhaps split Internet into "Web" and an Email+IM topic | 11:18 |
| LaserJock | I guess I would put "# | 11:19 |
| LaserJock | I guess I would put "Adding, Removing and Updating Applications | 11:19 |
| LaserJock | # | 11:19 |
| LaserJock | higher | 11:19 |
| LaserJock | sorry, that didn't come out right ;-) | 11:19 |
| mdke | got it. I don't get the Internet split though | 11:21 |
| mdke | maybe we could merge "Administrative Tasks" into Linux Basics, and move "Add/Remove etc" up to follow that | 11:21 |
| stelis | There's a lot of overlap between Email and IM, but not much between Web browsing and messaging | 11:22 |
| mdke | stelis: what do you mean by overlap? | 11:22 |
| stelis | Plus people may tend to look specifically for an Email topic | 11:22 |
| stelis | They work very similarly (conceptually) | 11:23 |
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| mdke | If anything, I can see a reason to separate "Connecting to the internet" from "Using the Internet", but I don't think we have enough space to start treating a single internet task separately to others | 11:23 |
| stelis | Well, I tend to the think of "Internet" as a technical bracket, more than one that end-users use | 11:25 |
| stelis | I agree that connectivity is a different issue to using the Internet | 11:25 |
| mdke | hmm. Maybe "Using the Internet" and "Communicating" or something similar | 11:26 |
| mdke | but, the applications menu groups internet applications... so keeping that would be an advantage | 11:26 |
| stelis | I suppose it depends on how task orientated you want the topics to be | 11:27 |
| dsas | I'd wager that most people use email through their browser. | 11:27 |
| dsas | Communicating seems vague too. | 11:28 |
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| === mdke nods | ||
| mdke | let's cling to the menu structure a bit | 11:29 |
| dsas | "Using your desktop" should probably be "using your computer" | 11:32 |
| dsas | Or something, it doesn't seem obvious to me what is in there, but based on my knowledge of the DG the games/office/photos sections? | 11:34 |
| stelis | http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide | 11:34 |
| mdke | well, those have separate sections | 11:34 |
| mdke | it would be the Gnome user guide, basically | 11:34 |
| dsas | ah, cool. | 11:34 |
| mdke | maybe we can come up with a better description though, definitely | 11:34 |
| stelis | For comparison | 11:35 |
| === mdke mails the list, bed | ||
| nixternal | g'nite | 11:42 |
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