=== zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === theCore [n=alex@modemcable229.181-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@ip72-209-68-178.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgeek_away [n=robotgee@71.207.224.84] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgeek [i=venkat@digital.celebris.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgee1 [i=venkat@digital.celebris.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === shwag [n=steven@static-71-165-111-2.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:07] regarding https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/serverguide/C/network-configuration.html [02:07] shouldnt the example block starting with "iface eth1 inet static" include the "auto eth1" line as the example above it does ? [02:07] one sec [02:09] yes, if you want it to come up at boot === kmitch87 [n=kyle@24.144.39.133] has joined #ubuntu-doc === kmitch87 [n=kyle@24.144.39.133] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@bas13-ottawa23-1177809002.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ryanakca [i=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-132-184.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === _froud_ [n=froud@dsl-242-189-118.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-132-184.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === motin_ [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === glatzor [n=sebi@p549652D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === motin_ [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-132-184.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === _froud_ [n=froud@dsl-242-189-118.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bhuvan [n=bhuvan@ubuntu/member/bhuvan] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ryanakca [i=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@bas13-ottawa23-1177809002.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === shwag [n=steven@static-71-165-111-2.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgee1 [i=venkat@digital.celebris.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgeek [n=robotgee@ubuntu/member/robotgeek] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@ip72-209-68-178.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lionel [n=lionel@ip-61.net-82-216-103.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyyserver [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-doc === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-doc === popey [n=alan@bishop.popey.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === trappist [i=trappist@tra.ppi.st] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud_ [n=froud@dsl-242-184-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === motin [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === motin_ [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserLine [n=laserlin@68-190-216-161.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poolkey172 [n=poolkey@82-45-184-214.cable.ubr03.enfi.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:31] anyone home ? === LaserLine [n=laserlin@68-190-216-161.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] [08:48] morning [08:49] Laser_away: sure, I guess so. Go ahead and add it to the page [08:49] morning mdke [08:49] Mako has a good blog post, no? [08:50] I need to read it [08:50] nixternal: still breaking string freeze!!?? [08:51] Burgundavia: yes. I agree completely === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:55] robotgeek: why are you not on planet.ubuntu ? [08:58] Burgundavia: do you know if there is anyone actually in favour of shipping binary drivers? [08:58] all the developers I've seen comment are against it [08:58] Mark and the beryl people [08:58] Mark? [08:59] sabdfl [08:59] oh god [08:59] that was apparently how it broke down at UDS [08:59] nobody else would have the power to make it go on this long [08:59] strange. [09:00] he knows full well that if free software is to succeed, it has to do it on its own terms, not by giving up in certain areas [09:00] jono and I talked about it [09:00] he and Mark seemed to be concerned we need to do this to "achieve parity" with other OSes [09:01] basically, if it is not beautiful, they won't come [09:01] Yeah, I know the argument [09:01] That doesn't work, I don't think [09:02] it runs up against the slippery slope problem [09:02] I argued that we can cleanup our icons and make better artwork and win more people over [09:02] plus, if we are going to further go down that path, it strikes me we should be solving the multimedia issue before the bling one [09:02] users will come to expect us to ship non-free software to compete, and we'll come to depend on it [09:03] drivers have always been special, though [09:03] yes, they have [09:03] however, Mako makes an excellent point about just working != extra bling [09:04] it's a fine line to draw. [09:04] something I said to Jono when we talked on Sunday [09:04] (is dual screen working bling or not?) [09:04] and Jono pointed that out. For some, just working == bling [09:04] coming to depend on non-free software is really dangerous though, not just for our own sake, but also because it doesn't give those who won't open up the incentive to change [09:04] and to see that free software can work as a model [09:05] if Mark believes that it can work, he should stick to it [09:05] however, I still hold that if we are going to sacrifice our freedom further, we should solve the multimedia issue first [09:05] well, we are solving it [09:06] install on demand for codecs is a solution [09:06] we can do the same for drivers then [09:06] 100% agreed [09:07] I've always found it interesting that people are willing to "look the other way" for, say, wifi drivers === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:07] that's true. [09:10] Mithrandir: changing the subject, any ideas on that freeze thing? [09:12] mdke: for stable releases, I think we should require that any string changes are either accompanied by translation updates (for non-typo fixes) [09:12] or are just typo fixes, in which case the translation ought to not have the typo [09:14] for normal string freezes, I think having the same rules in effect, but be a bit more lax in what updates we accept. [09:14] (the stable updates have to go through the full SRU procedure which is enough, I believe) [09:14] mdke: ^^ thoughts? [09:16] Mithrandir: just reminding myself of what the SRU procedure is [09:17] Mithrandir: string changes don't satisfy anything in the "When" section [09:17] instructions which are directly harmful is an example of the last one. [09:18] Mithrandir: ah, ok. So only things like that [09:18] that sounds sensible [09:18] you could argue a glaring typo (think misspelling "Ubuntu" in the main help title) is a severe regression from the previous release. [09:19] apart from those kind of things, I don't think stable releases should be updated. They're released, after all. [09:19] yeah, ok. [09:20] the procedure for determining which bugs can be addressed in the unstable release? [09:21] sru [09:22] eh? [09:22] that's a bit stiff [09:22] string freeze is about three weeks prior to release (for edgy), about a month and a half prior to release for feisty, so the procedure could be roughly what it is for other package updates: - maintainer's call until the archive's frozen (but soliciting input from a release team member is of course of), - release manager's call after that. [09:23] sounds fine. [09:23] we don't want to freeze it too deeply too early; if so, the freezes are useless (since they'll be equivalent for a release, from a string pov) [09:23] what were you going to say after "is of course of" [09:24] s/of/ok/ [09:24] so "is of course ok" [09:24] gotcha [09:25] thanks for your help === Burgundavia stirs the pot [09:25] we need to write this down as a procedure somewhere, probably on the StringFreeze page; can one of you do that? [09:25] sure [09:26] I'll be happy to review it to make sure it matches my interpretation of what we agreed to. [09:26] i've started doing that [09:26] excellent, thanks. Please ping me when it's shaping up. [09:28] Mithrandir: ping [09:28] oh, you're quick. *chuckles* [09:28] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationStringFreeze [09:29] how do we communicate with translators to ensure they get the message about updates? [09:30] by mailing list [09:30] I'll add that [09:32] hmm, we understood that you wanted just one string freeze, not a docstringfreeze and a stringfreeze when we did the release schedule. Is that wrong? [09:34] I haven't heard anything about that [09:34] traditionally DocumentationStringFreeze has always been separate to the programs string freeze [09:35] but since StringFreeze seems quite late, it sounds fine to me to have them at the same time [09:39] Mithrandir: the only problem might be where an application changes a string and this affects the documentation. That's the case with menu entries. [09:39] it would be nice to get warning of late-ish changes of that nature [09:41] still, since in the past docSF seems to have come before normal SF, I suppose this is an improvement :) [09:50] mdke: I'll be happy to work with you on finding something which works for you; I must say I'm fairly string-ignorant myself so it's not one of the itches I scratch.. [09:52] Mithrandir: alright, thanks. Let's leave it like this and see === rob1 [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke -> work === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jenda_ [n=jenda@ubuntu/member/jenda] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jenda_ [n=jenda@ubuntu/member/jenda] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:00] ive transferred ownership of ubuntu-doc in lp to mdke just fyi === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@bas13-ottawa23-1177808724.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:45] Burgundavia: i emailed Jeff Waugh a couple of times, but i got no response. i just gave up === jono_ [n=jono@88-107-64-195.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jono_ [n=jono@88-107-64-195.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@S0106000fb085cc63.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:04] mdke: the only reason i did that is because we don't ship nor translate that doc === poningru [n=poningru@n128-227-104-155.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Smiffeh [n=matt@80.168.87.238] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:11] it would be nice if /etc/network/interfaces by default had a bunch of commented out lines showing how to do basic things like a static ip address assignment. [07:12] I suppose the idea is that you shouldn't have to mess around with it unless you know what you're doing [07:12] but I don't find that we are quite there :-) === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-27-110.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Smiffeh [n=matt@80.168.87.238] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud_ [n=froud@dsl-242-184-148.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:07] nixternal: ping === trappist [i=trappist@tra.ppi.st] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:23] mdke: ping === motin [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === motin_ [n=motin@c80-217-109-98.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ompaul [n=ompaul@gnewsense/friend/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:48] LaserJock: hello? [08:49] nixternal: ah, I didn't realise it wasn't shipped. In that case, it shouldn't even be in the branch [08:49] mdke: hmm, what was I going to say [08:49] oh yeah [08:49] did you do a spec for building doc team tools? [08:50] LaserJock: yes, I mailed it to you! Lemme dig it out [08:51] LaserJock: it needs a lot of work. [08:51] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/simplify-ubuntu-docs-build-process <- LaserJock [08:52] I found it [08:52] ok, I wanted to add it to my todo list [08:52] wow! [08:53] but I couldn't remember if we had a spec for it or not [08:53] one often requested feature is to add support for individual translation maintainers to import a single language. We'll have to look at adding that [08:53] let's work together. It's already a lot better than it was for Edgy [08:53] {everyone} the presentation is starting soon for the Open Week. Who is attending? [08:53] I'll be around [08:54] well, I see what I can do [08:55] I already have a ton of things to do for Feisty [08:55] sure [08:55] trying to make core-dev soonish [08:55] we'll prioritise parts of it [08:55] ah, nice. About time [08:55] anyway, at least finishing a spec of and writing down what we want [08:56] we can even get some interested person to do the actual coding [08:56] if we don't have time to do it all [08:56] yeah [08:56] but I do enjoy doing this shell/python scripting stuff [08:57] do you know how to get shell scripts to take arguments? [08:57] sure [08:57] ok, that should be enough :) [08:57] python has better handling of them [08:57] but it's certainly possible in a shell script [08:57] much of /usr/bin is a shell script ;-) [08:57] ok. It's mainly debian/rules and the translate.sh scripts that need work [08:58] yeah, I think a good general approach is to write some individual shell scripts [08:58] that do a particular task, like translate.sh [08:58] and then pull them all together in a nice package with python [08:58] in MOTU we have something similar [08:59] oh bloody hell. The open week presentation is tomorrow, not today. [08:59] oh === mdke smacks [08:59] oh right, simon's on now [08:59] yeah [08:59] alright, I'll do something else this evening then [09:00] cya soon! [09:00] cya [09:04] mdke: how do you edit the fridge calendar? === Smiffeh [n=matt@80.168.87.215] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:08] LaserJock: pong? [09:08] nixternal: regarding bzr [09:08] did i break it? [09:08] bzr checks out the entire history of the repo [09:08] svn doesn't [09:09] ahh [09:09] so that's why it is slower to grab and larger [09:09] but the whole history of the repo is local [09:09] ok, so say for instance, i do a booboo and commit to the dapper repo, i can bzr revert it instantly ? [09:09] ;) [09:09] yes [09:09] at least locally [09:09] you commit locally [09:09] publish remotely [09:09] if you branch you commit locally [09:09] if you checkout you commit regular [09:10] right [09:10] bzr can basically be run in an "SVN" mode [09:10] ya, that is the same as doing a checkout [09:11] i have Ichthux branched, or used to branch, and i would commit locally and then push [09:11] my only issue with Bazaar would be 1) To slow, and 2) Space consuming [09:11] s/issue/issues [09:11] on the other hand [09:12] you can go to a computer that has fast internet and download the repo to a usb stick [09:12] and you have the complete history with you [09:12] i have an 8mb down connection, is that fast enough? [09:12] and it still took over an hour to do a checkout [09:12] yep [09:12] but we can also make a tarball [09:12] the problem isn't bandwidth, i can tell you that now [09:13] i sniffed packets and watched them drop constantly at the bazaar server [09:13] the easiest thing for people to use would be a tarball of the repo [09:14] yeah, there's some issues for sure [09:14] for a long time (not sure if it still does it) bzr would die on my home DSL router [09:14] because it made so many DNS requests [09:14] so a bzr branch would fail 4 out of 5 times [09:16] ya, it is quite horrid..but i think as soon as they get that fixed it will rock on..definitely a bright future for it [09:17] yes, I think between the latest releases of bzr and having access to bazaar.launchpad.net we might be able to make it work [09:17] the nice thing about bazaar.launchpad.net is we have an easy way to control access [09:17] w/o a doubt that is a nice thing about it === dsas [n=dean@host-84-9-170-224.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:18] however, svn has been working fine for us so far, with the exception of access control [09:19] well, access control hasn't been that big of an issue has it? mdke pretty much requests it through rt and boom usually within a day it is taken care of [09:20] it certainly wasn't always that way [09:21] it took me something like a month to get mine [09:21] but that's way back when elmo did everything [09:22] ya [09:22] I'm not really sure why Riddell is pushing bzr so much [09:22] what is cool with Bazaar is you can sign your commits and everythign just like you would packaging [09:22] I know he lost his svn password [09:22] hehe [09:22] but surely he can get that back [09:23] well, i think the Bazaar push might be coming from higher maybe? I know pretty much every project is utilizing it to some extent [09:23] uniformity [09:23] possibly it's just easier to only have to remember one RCS. [09:23] perhaps [09:23] dsas: that is true...i started checking out instead of branching with bzr to make it more svn like [09:24] but KDE isn't using bzr [09:24] so I would think he'd be used to using svn anyway [09:24] well KDE isn't "buntu" either [09:24] sure [09:24] but I'm just saying for him I'd bet he still uses svn a fair amount [09:24] i know that Riddell uses bzr for the kubuntu-default-settings [09:25] well, bzr should be used for most ubuntu packaging tasks [09:25] of course...he does a lot of committing to KDE, so he is using svn like mad on a daily basis [09:25] that's pretty normal [09:25] anyway [09:25] I know there is a push for us to use bzr [09:25] and I like it [09:25] but IMO it just doesn't seem to fit our repo well [09:26] we don't really need the decentralized aspects [09:26] the only nice thing I can see is using the LP team for access control === dsas [n=dean@host-84-9-170-224.bulldogdsl.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:27] ya...i am for whatever works honestly [09:28] svn works and so does bzr..i will let the politicians choose [09:28] :-) === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@d235-240-148.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === stelis [n=se@82-71-4-26.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:49] LaserJock: you're aware that bzr can check out svn directly? [10:49] how so? [10:49] bzr can checkout a svn repo? [10:49] install bzr-svn, do bzr branch svn+ssh://host/repo [10:49] hmm [10:50] I don't know if that's be much help to us [10:50] perhaps [10:50] that's a very cool idea [10:50] oh, more as a comment to the "but riddell has to use svn anyway" bit you said. [10:50] ah [10:50] yes, that makes sense [10:55] Burgwork: add an event [10:55] Burgwork: or edit an existing one [10:56] ok, I will add another one [10:58] mdke: do I need a body? === ompaul [n=ompaul@gnewsense/friend/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:59] Burgwork: yeah, it's desirable, although not technically necessary [11:00] ok [11:01] nixternal: note that you can also use revert with svn === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-doc === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:16] what do people think of the categories on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp? Any ideas for reshuffling/adding/removing them? [11:18] seems good to me [11:18] Perhaps split Internet into "Web" and an Email+IM topic [11:19] I guess I would put "# [11:19] I guess I would put "Adding, Removing and Updating Applications [11:19] # [11:19] higher [11:19] sorry, that didn't come out right ;-) [11:21] got it. I don't get the Internet split though [11:21] maybe we could merge "Administrative Tasks" into Linux Basics, and move "Add/Remove etc" up to follow that [11:22] There's a lot of overlap between Email and IM, but not much between Web browsing and messaging [11:22] stelis: what do you mean by overlap? [11:22] Plus people may tend to look specifically for an Email topic [11:23] They work very similarly (conceptually) === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Ex-Chat"] [11:23] If anything, I can see a reason to separate "Connecting to the internet" from "Using the Internet", but I don't think we have enough space to start treating a single internet task separately to others [11:25] Well, I tend to the think of "Internet" as a technical bracket, more than one that end-users use [11:25] I agree that connectivity is a different issue to using the Internet [11:26] hmm. Maybe "Using the Internet" and "Communicating" or something similar [11:26] but, the applications menu groups internet applications... so keeping that would be an advantage [11:27] I suppose it depends on how task orientated you want the topics to be [11:27] I'd wager that most people use email through their browser. [11:28] Communicating seems vague too. === dsas bikesheds === shwag [n=steven@static-71-165-111-2.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Leaving"] === mdke nods [11:29] let's cling to the menu structure a bit [11:32] "Using your desktop" should probably be "using your computer" [11:34] Or something, it doesn't seem obvious to me what is in there, but based on my knowledge of the DG the games/office/photos sections? [11:34] http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide [11:34] well, those have separate sections [11:34] it would be the Gnome user guide, basically [11:34] ah, cool. [11:34] maybe we can come up with a better description though, definitely [11:35] For comparison === mdke mails the list, bed [11:42] g'nite === ompaul [n=ompaul@gnewsense/friend/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-doc === david_corrales_ [n=david@ip247-10.ct.co.cr] has joined #ubuntu-doc