[12:27] <theCore> how was sabdfl's session?
[12:28] <tyrion> does anyone have any logs of this online?
[12:29] <theCore> !logs | tyrion
[12:29] <ubotu> tyrion: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[12:29] <Changlinn> check the wiki I think there are logs there
[12:29] <Changlinn> Yay ubotu is here...
[12:29] <tyrion> theCore: cheers
[12:30] <theCore> tyrion, yeah: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_AskMark
[12:46] <theCore> sigh... nobody asked about Grumpy Groundhog ...
[12:49] <apokryphos> theCore: maybe take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/GrumpyGroundhog
[12:50] <theCore> apokryphos, thanks
[12:57] <lzap> what Mark thought with "X update mistake"?
[01:10] <Davidosoosos> did it start
[01:11] <Davidosoosos> ?
[01:11] <Odd_Bloke> Did what start?
[01:12] <Davidosoosos> the Q and A session with Mark Shuttleworth
[01:12] <Odd_Bloke> Yeah, about 7 hours ago...
[01:12] <Davidosoosos> what!?!
[01:13] <andrew> heh
[01:13] <_ion> :-)
[01:13] <andrew> times were UTC
[01:14] <Davidosoosos> I used the tool to change the time and it said 7:00 eastern time
[01:14] <andrew> Davidosoosos: it was noon est
[01:15] <givre> Davidosoosos: you can get the log there https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_AskMark
[01:15] <Davidosoosos> the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/ said 17.00 UTC
[01:15] <andrew> Wed Nov 29 00:15:57 UTC 2006
[01:16] <andrew> current UTC time ^
[01:16] <givre> Davidosoosos: it was 17:00 UTC
[01:16] <Davidosoosos> sorry. I just got a little confused
[01:19] <dasmi_hull> You could always read the l...he's gone :/
[01:20] <andrew> dasmi_hull: that was mentioned
[01:48] <lzap> what Mark thought with "X update mistake"? does anyone know?
[01:49] <Burgwork> lzap: the update to dapper that killed X
[01:49] <lzap> killed ?
[02:24] <DeepY0X> hi?
[02:24] <tonyyarusso> Hi DeepY0X
[02:24] <tonyyarusso> Fashionably early?
[02:24] <DeepY0X> what about the conferences?
[02:25] <nalioth> you are a few hours late and a few hours early, DeepY0X
[02:25] <tonyyarusso> DeepY0X: Times are in UTC
[02:25] <tonyyarusso> DeepY0X: The tinyurl link in the topic will help you convert
[02:30] <tonyyarusso> !openweek | DeepY0X
[02:30] <ubotu> DeepY0X: Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[02:30] <tonyyarusso> !logs | DeepY0X
[02:30] <ubotu> DeepY0X: Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[02:31] <tonyyarusso> DeepY0X: And other places - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts, Meetings, and who knows where else people are putting them.
[02:37] <hastesaver> And also at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
[02:38] <tonyyarusso> Yeah, that's the one I meant, not just Meetings
[02:38] <tonyyarusso> my stupid cron script still isn't running right though :(
[02:42] <jrib> well maybe if you didn't call it names...
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> wha?
[02:43] <jrib> "stupid cron script"
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> oh
[02:43] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[02:43] <andrew> they have feelings, you know
[02:44] <tonyyarusso> It's weird - the command run on it's own works fine, and another command with the same time fields runs fine, but together it doesn't seem to do it's job
[02:44] <jrib> what I usually do if it's a complicated command is make a simple bash script, and have cron run that
[02:45] <hastesaver> tonyyarusso, doesn't cron send you mail to tell you what happened?
[02:45] <tonyyarusso> hastesaver: It does, and it _looks_ like things ran, but their results don't show that
[02:45] <tonyyarusso> It's very freaky
[02:45] <tonyyarusso> jrib: That's exactly what I have
[02:46] <jrib> what command?
[02:47] <tonyyarusso> jrib: It's a combination of things for ultimately get pretty logs of this channel posted at the link in !openweek
[02:48] <tonyyarusso> Copies logs around a bit to a few different places, then tries to remove trolls, convert to colored html, and check that the permissions are okay.
[02:48] <jrib> how do you remove trolls in a script?
[02:49] <hastesaver> tonyyarusso, add lots of debugging output to your bash script, set the crontab time to a few minutes from now, and work on it :-)
[02:49] <andrew> s/troll//
[02:49] <tonyyarusso> Like I said, the script works fine on it's own, and the output in the mail from cron looks fine, but it doesn't look right afterwards.
[02:49] <jrib> andrew: lol
[02:49] <tonyyarusso> jrib: theCore wrote something that removes all lines said by anyone who was banned.
[02:49] <jrib> oh cool
[02:57] <jean> how can i registe a irc account?
[02:57] <jean> hey?
[02:57] <tonyyarusso> !register | jean
[02:57] <ubotu> jean: Information about registering your Freenode nick is at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#contents-userregistration
[02:58] <tonyyarusso> jean: That should cover it pretty well :)
[02:58] <jean> ok
[02:58] <jean> thanks
[03:07] <tonyyarusso> levander: Hey, you were looking for a log prettyifying script?
[03:08] <tonyyarusso> levander: consider http://freshmeat.net/projects/irclog2html.pl/
[03:10] <jeanvial> hi
[03:10] <jeanvial> i only trying my conection?
[03:11] <jeanvial> hi
[03:12] <nalioth> jeanvial: it works  ;)
[03:12] <jeanvial> ok
[03:12] <jeanvial> thanks
[03:13] <tonyyarusso> !test
[03:13] <ubotu> Failed.
[03:13] <tonyyarusso> :) / :(
[03:13] <jeanvial> i trying because i want stay in the openweek
[03:13] <jeanvial> but i new
[03:15] <tonyyarusso> jeanvial: Glad to have you.
[03:15] <jeanvial> somebody know how can i connect here with Gaim?
[03:15] <bimberi__> tonyyarusso: what does !test test?
[03:16] <tonyyarusso> The schedule and additional info is in the topic, also see the link to channel rules (in #ubuntu-classroom-chat topic or linked from wiki page)
[03:16] <tonyyarusso> bimberi__: Whether ubotu feels like acknowledging you.  I think that's it.
[03:16] <tonyyarusso> jeanvial: What are you using now?
[03:16] <jeanvial> Xchat
[03:16] <bimberi__> tonyyarusso: k, thanks
[03:17] <tonyyarusso> jeanvial: First, my personal opinion, Xchat's interface is nicer for IRC.  However, if you'd like to use Gaim let me fire it up and poke around.
[03:17] <jeanvial> ok
[03:18] <andrew> s interface
[03:18] <jeanvial> thanks
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> andrew: Same here, actually, but if I'm going GUI I go Xchat.
[03:18] <tonyyarusso> jeanvial: So what'll it be?
[03:19] <andrew> tonyyarusso: i'd have to agree, i used xchat before using irssi -- steep learning curve, but once one learns it, screen + irssi is wonderful
[03:19] <jeanvial> i thing tha i will use Xchat
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> andrew: Heck yes.  My main reason for picking it up was that X crashed and burned on me and I needed to get my desktop back.  Never went back.
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> jeanvial: Sounds like a plan.
[03:20] <jeanvial> but i whant know how can i contect with gaim
[03:21] <jeanvial> yes becuase if i can`t conet with gaim then i will use Xchat in the openweek
[03:21] <andrew> tonyyarusso: my main reason for using irssi is because i can connect to my screen session from anywhere on campus, or beyond whenever i wish, and i can see what i missed when my laptop is off
[03:23] <jeanvial> sorry for my English im Mexican
[03:23] <tonyyarusso> jeanvial: Basics for Gaim in case you want it, just use the "Add Account" interface like you would for other things, select "IRC" as the protocol.  The server is irc.freenode.net, pick your nick, and from there it's pretty straightforward.  You can probably set your auto-join channels too, but I'm not sure where that option is.
[03:28] <jeanvial> ok
[03:28] <jeanvial> thanks
[03:30] <jeanvial> ok
[03:31] <jeanvial>  now i conecting with gaim
[03:31] <jeanvial> thaks
[03:31] <jeanvial> tony
[03:32] <jeanvial> bye
[03:37] <im247blk> I need hlp booting a USB xtrnl disk in an old laptop, no BIOS boot option for USB
[03:39] <jeanvia1> somebody can see mi message
[03:40] <tonyyarusso> jeanvia1: seen and acknowledged
[03:40] <tonyyarusso> im247blk: Oy, I know you can, but don't remember the link offhand.  Check the wiki - I know it's on there but not sure under what.
[03:42] <jeanvia1> bye
[03:42] <jeanvia1> Alguien habla espaol?
[03:43] <LjL> !es | jeanvia1
[03:43] <ubotu> jeanvia1: Para Espaol por favor usen #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, all obtendrn mas ayuda.
[03:43] <jeanvia1> ok
[03:43] <jeanvia1> gracias
[03:43] <jeanvia1> bye
[03:44] <im247blk> tonyyarusso: Will I need a boot floppy or partition on my /dev/hda ??
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> im247blk: Probably.
[03:45] <tonyyarusso> I know I used a boot floppy to boot off a CD-ROM when BIOS didn't support it.
[03:47] <im247blk> tonyyarusso: What floppy? Where ca I get one or an image???
[03:48] <tonyyarusso> im247blk: That I'm not sure
[03:48] <im247blk> tonyyarusso: Where did you get the floppy??
[03:49] <tonyyarusso> im247blk: Some link from the wiki
[03:50] <im247blk> tonyyarusso: What is the wiki URL?
[03:50] <tonyyarusso> im247blk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
[03:54] <im247blk> tonyyarusso: Thx!
[04:24] <Dheeraj_k> can any body tell me the difference between multi programming and multi processing operating system?
[04:44] <tonyyarusso> violot: By a number of hours.
[04:44] <tonyyarusso> Times are in UTC.
[04:44] <violot> D'oh!!!
[04:44] <violot> Noooo!
[04:44] <tonyyarusso> See the tinyurl link in the topic to convert
[04:45] <violot> Do you guys keep IRC logs?
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> !openweek
[04:45] <ubotu> Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek. For logs please see http://www.tonyyarusso.is-a-geek.com/irclogs/openweek/
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> !logs
[04:45] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[04:45] <violot> yay!
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> :)
[04:46] <violot> Not cool.  Stupid school + time offset :(  I don't think I can get to any of them
[04:46] <violot> Except for Saturday, unless I have to work
[04:47] <poningru> violot: skip school?
[04:47] <violot> :P  I'm in high school, we get in trouble ;)
[04:47] <andrew> connect from school?
[04:47] <poningru> or connect from ...
[04:47] <poningru> what he said
[04:47] <violot> I wish I could.
[04:47] <andrew> ssh out or do they block that?
[04:47] <violot> Yeah, blocked ;)
[04:47] <violot> You can't even download on those computers, it's gay.
[04:47] <andrew> web based chat?
[04:48] <violot> They have a filter thing.
[04:48] <violot> And, I only have 1 hour of free time a day... Lunch = no computers
[04:48] <andrew> connect from home and read the logs later
[04:48] <violot> Or I could just read the logs without connecting :P
[04:49] <poningru> they do not allow sshing?
[04:49] <violot> No.
[04:49] <poningru> ssh through port 80
[04:49] <tonyyarusso> ssh on a nonstandard port
[04:49] <violot> These are LOCKED DOWN.
[04:49] <andrew> i was able to ssh from high school
[04:49] <tonyyarusso> I use 443
[04:49] <poningru> bah
[04:49] <andrew> ssh over port 80 or 443
[04:49] <poningru> nothing is LOCKED DOWN
[04:49] <violot> Well, I mean, without getting me expelled/suspended
[04:49] <poningru> if it allows http... then it allows everything
[04:49] <violot> If you try to bypass ANYTHING, you get in trouble
[04:50] <poningru> asshats
[04:50] <violot> No Google Images either -_-
[04:50] <poningru> wtf
[04:50] <andrew> no, if they catch you bypassing anything you get in trouble
[04:50] <violot> They think we'll look at "bad pictures"
[04:50] <violot> So, access to those websites are blocked.
[04:50] <andrew> so sheltered
[04:50] <violot> Including any place that has webhosting.
[04:50] <Dheeraj_k> use
[04:50] <violot> It blocks blogs too.
[04:50] <violot> No /.
[04:50] <violot> No digg.
[04:51] <Dheeraj_k> vtunnel.com
[04:51] <tonyyarusso> Depends on the actual wording of your AUP violot
[04:51] <violot> vtunnel is blocked because it's a loophole
[04:51] <Dheeraj_k> there are lots of way to screw firewall
[04:51] <Dheeraj_k> phonifier.com
[04:52] <Dheeraj_k> want more?
[04:52] <violot> Cell phone signals are blocked at school.
[04:52] <violot> XD
[04:52] <violot> It's gay.
[04:52] <andrew> where do you go to school?
[04:52] <Dheeraj_k> ??
[04:52] <violot> But then you'll come 'n' rape me! :O
[04:52] <violot> :P
[04:52] <Dheeraj_k> use pc
[04:52] <andrew> no, i'm a college student, can't afford to travel far
[04:52] <tonyyarusso> violot: btw, stop using 'gay' as a negative please.
[04:53] <Dheeraj_k> Hitler high?
[04:53] <violot> Oops, X-chat likes to quit when I press Ctrl+X for some reason 0_o
[04:54] <Dheeraj_k> desi-tek.com/Live
[04:54] <Dheeraj_k> desi-tek.com/dCrawler
[04:54] <Dheeraj_k> there are so many
[04:54] <violot> Domains like those are blocked because they are loopholes
[04:55] <Dheeraj_k> I recently made the small program in java based on tunnel
[04:55] <romeo_> test
[04:55] <Dheeraj_k> localhost>>collegeproxy>>>public proxy
[04:57] <Dheeraj_k> tell you are  school network admin to not to ban desi-tek.com
[04:57] <Dheeraj_k> its a student forum!
[04:57] <violot> They don't allow forum access
[04:57] <violot> They ban forum use.
[04:57] <violot> If they catch you on a forum, you're out
[04:58] <andrew> even ubuntu forums?
[04:58] <violot> Yeah.
[04:58] <violot> It doesn't matter what they are about
[04:58] <tonyyarusso> Do they ban learning?
[04:58] <violot> :P  Pretty much
[04:58] <Dheeraj_k> sue you are school admin!
[04:58] <andrew> what *can* you do online?
[04:59] <violot> If you go to some websites, it says "Website banned for: Recreation/Fun"
[04:59] <Dheeraj_k> how cum they allow irc?
[04:59] <violot> They don't
[04:59] <violot> I'm at home.
[04:59] <tonyyarusso> violot: You need a different school
[04:59] <Dheeraj_k> oh
[05:00] <Dheeraj_k> than go 4 strike in school :P
[05:00] <Ghost_Printer> violot: what OS does your school use ?
[05:01] <Dheeraj_k> ask you are netAdmin...  what is the meaning of internet?
[05:01] <_ion> 42
[05:01] <violot> Windows XP
[05:01] <Dheeraj_k> than you can ban net admin
[05:01] <Ghost_Printer> poor you
[05:01] <andrew> live cd
[05:01] <Dheeraj_k> use ethereal
[05:02] <violot> Can't boot from CD
[05:02] <Dheeraj_k> does you are teacher access server from you are pc in school?
[05:02] <violot> ?
[05:03] <Dheeraj_k> leave it
[05:04] <andrew> violot: websense?
[05:04] <Dheeraj_k> here in our college our system admin use hp-unix
[05:04] <Ghost_Printer> Dheeraj_k: sounds like Violot's school uses Deep Freeze to block access
[05:04] <Dheeraj_k> and they don't block any site
[05:04] <Dheeraj_k> other than xxxxx
[05:04] <violot> I'd just rather not try to get around it and get caught ;)
[05:04] <violot> And be banned from computer use
[05:05] <andrew> violot: long fiber line to your home, and your own laptop
[05:05] <violot> And therefore flunk my C.S. class
[05:05] <andrew> don't forget the extra long extension cord
[05:05] <violot> -_-
[05:05] <violot> :P
[05:05] <tonyyarusso> Our system runs Red Hat
[05:05] <violot> Well, I DO live less than a mile away :P
[05:05] <Dheeraj_k> code small virus and spead it around the workstation
[05:07] <Dheeraj_k> violot: you have no life in school ;)
[05:08] <violot> There, I'm in irssi, can't accidently kill the window now -_-
[05:08] <andrew> violot: did you answer my question, as to what they *allow* you to do online?
[05:08] <violot> :P  Ehhh...
[05:08] <violot> Search, click on links, get pushed back, repeat :P
[05:08] <Dheeraj_k> accessing microsoft.com ???
[05:09] <Dheeraj_k> or may be www.windoesupdate.com
[05:09] <violot> Not windows update
[05:09] <violot> We can't download, remember, no point ;)
[05:09] <Dheeraj_k> not possible!
[05:09] <Dheeraj_k> when you access any site
[05:09] <maniacmusician> have you thought about obtaining a proxy list, finding one that works, and then using that with whatever that default browser is?
[05:10] <violot> I mean, we don't have write access to anywhere really
[05:10] <Dheeraj_k> you download html file in hdd
[05:10] <andrew> no where?
[05:10] <andrew> not even a place to store docs?
[05:10] <violot> We don't get any space
[05:10] <violot> We use Flash drives
[05:10] <andrew> waste of money
[05:10] <Dheeraj_k> can you use floppy ?
[05:10] <andrew> i've always had network drive access in high school
[05:11] <violot> I don't recall if there are floppy drives in the machines or not
[05:11] <maniacmusician> heh thats ridiculous! we had our computers deep frozen (I'm assistant sys-admin), but at least we have servers with network storage.
[05:11] <Dheeraj_k> I have collection of some deadly virus for windows
[05:11] <violot> We can't run EXE files that come from us
[05:11] <violot> They aren't able to execute
[05:11] <andrew> what is the school district?
[05:12] <Dheeraj_k> you don't need to run
[05:12] <andrew> maybe we can send them letters
[05:12] <violot> -_-
[05:12] <Dheeraj_k> ok next time open notepad
[05:12] <Dheeraj_k> and type
[05:12] <violot> Sleeeeeeeep *_*
[05:12] <Dheeraj_k> @net user administrator 000000000000
[05:12] <Dheeraj_k> and save it as ff.bat
[05:12] <violot> But...
[05:13] <Dheeraj_k> in admin folder
[05:13] <violot> We can only save to flashdrives
[05:13] <violot> We don't have write access anywhere
[05:13] <Dheeraj_k> it will change the the admin password in reboot
[05:13] <andrew> violot isn't giving us a place to send letters to
[05:13] <Dheeraj_k> to  000000000000
[05:13] <violot> And I get suspended! YAY! ^_^   :P
[05:13] <Dheeraj_k> can you edit registary file?
[05:14] <maniacmusician> violot: when the computer boots up, go into the BIOS and set up a supervisor password. At least it will cause some trouble for them :)
[05:14] <violot> Ah oh well, I didn't mean to strike up this whole thing :P
[05:14] <violot> And I need sleep
[05:14] <violot> Goodbye.
[05:15] <maniacmusician> lol. our education system is so inefficient. I feel sorry for these children..
[05:16] <Dheeraj_k> may be he is studying in hell!
[05:17] <Dheeraj_k> its 9.47am here
[05:17] <Dheeraj_k> (09:47:22  IST)
[05:17] <maniacmusician> well its not just him. Even local schools here are horrible, and this a progressive, rich-kids society.
[05:17] <Dheeraj_k> that is really sad
[05:20] <andrew> that is the problem with this country, too much censorship/government parenting
[05:22] <Dheeraj_k> here censorship is only in paper:)
[05:23] <andrew> here, we have the consitution... but they ignore that
[05:24] <Dheeraj_k> same here :)
[05:24] <Dheeraj_k> but every 1 ignore that
[05:24] <Dheeraj_k> are you in uk?
[05:24] <maniacmusician> Well it hasn't really got much to do with gov't parenting
[05:24] <andrew> us
[05:25] <maniacmusician> The problem (here in the US) is a shitty education system. It needs major reform, but no one is willing to do it
[05:25] <Dheeraj_k> here in india it is very complicated
[05:26] <tonyyarusso> Hey folks, while this is fun and all, it's starting to look like it's trending towards politics and whatnot, which would be more appropriate in ##politics - could you take it there if this is going to carry on?
[05:26] <andrew> i'll stop
[05:26] <maniacmusician> hehe sorry. it's not that important a topic, i'll just quiet down
[05:26] <tonyyarusso> That works too.  Don't have to stop entirely, just shift to the places that are really hoppin' with that stuff ;)
[05:27] <andrew> i'm not *that* into it, it just came up here
[05:27] <andrew> poor violot
[05:27] <tonyyarusso> I'll second that much at least
[05:28] <romeo_> can someone help me get a HP Deskwriter 3520 USB printer installed on dapper?  I've got it in the list as default, it's recognized and brings up an appropriate PPD file when configuring it, BUT it won't print the test page.
[05:30] <tonyyarusso> romeo_: Try in #ubuntu for support questions.
[05:30] <tonyyarusso> (Unless someone offers to take it up with you one-on-one here)
[05:31] <romeo_> ok, thanks
[05:46] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: got logs of todays festivities?
[05:47] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: They should be up - not cleaned, but up
[05:47] <tonyyarusso> (all in one massive blob still)
[05:47] <nalioth> how about the other pocket?
[05:48] <tonyyarusso> nope
[05:48] <tonyyarusso> I'm three labs behind in class atm
[05:49] <nalioth> shall i send you a note to excuse you?
[05:51] <tonyyarusso> That would be friggin' amazing.
[05:53] <nalioth> just take the day off, then, and refer them to my wiki page for how to contact me
[05:53] <nalioth> i'll set 'em straight
[05:54] <tonyyarusso> Sounds like a plan.
[05:55] <tonyyarusso> ....and PFA just stole a huge chunk of my time, but it was at least for an academic topic, so it's kinda like studying.
[10:44] <il1il50> l
[11:11] <mahtavamatt>  /join #ubuntu-classroom
[11:14] <Odd_Bloke> mahtavamatt: It worked!
[11:28] <highvoltage> Linuxpoa: away/back scripts are uncool
[11:28] <_ion> linuxpoa: I sincerely thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
[11:29] <Linuxpoa> Sorry,
[01:00] <Saelynh> hello all
[01:00] <thailq> hallo
[01:00] <dholbach> hullo
[01:18] <djay-il> hello
[01:20] <djay-il> )
[01:20] <djay-il> )
[01:21] <dholbach> hello djay-il
[01:22] <djay-il> I've found little error on wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom. is this a place to tell?
[01:24] <snail> djay-il: yep
[01:24] <djay-il> all the Open Week is mondays
[01:24] <djay-il> :-)
[01:25] <snail> well spotted. feel free to fix it
[01:27] <djay-il> should I login for that?
[01:29] <snail> djay-il: i think you need to be, yes
[01:30] <djay-il> ok
[01:31] <djay-il> wow, it seems that I *am* registered
[01:36] <djay-il> what's the short sign for Thursday - THU ?
[01:38] <djay-il> ok, Classroom wiki fixed
[01:39] <hophet> djay-il: $ cal
[01:39] <hophet> :] 
[01:40] <djay-il> $ cal ?
[01:41] <hophet> yes, there you will see the short sign of days
[01:41] <hophet> or iam crazy?
[01:41] <hophet> :P
[01:42] <hophet> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
[01:47] <djay-il> oh, I did 3 letters acronyms, just to be consistent
[01:56] <xeruno> Hi every one
[01:56] <xeruno> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/+bug/60383 I think we got FIX RELEASED fot this
[01:56] <xeruno> oops
[01:56] <xeruno> wrong channel
[02:09] <hophet> djay-il: ok
[02:18] <jono> howdy all
[02:22] <djay-il> hello
[02:22] <djay-il> jono: its not a session yet, right?
[02:22] <Tchonga> hello!
[02:22] <jono> right
[02:23] <djay-il> can I ask a /msg question?
[02:23] <mattl> jono: yo. how's it going mate?
[02:23] <jono> mattl: good thanks :)
[02:23] <jono> you?
[02:23] <mattl> yeah, not bad. i got my new job :)
[02:24] <mattl> so, i'll be moving to Manchester.
[02:28] <jono> mattl: cool :)
[02:28] <jono> right lunch
[02:38] <effie_jayx> mattl: Glory Glory Man United :)
[02:39] <mattl> haha.
[02:39] <effie_jayx> don't tell me you ar chelski fan
[02:43] <mattl> effie_jayx: no, i'm not a football fan at all :)
[02:43] <effie_jayx> just teasing :)
[02:43] <mattl> if i had to support anything, i'd support my hometown, but Exeter City is er.. crap.
[02:44] <effie_jayx> they beat man utd last year
[02:44] <effie_jayx> no
[02:44] <effie_jayx> this year
[02:44] <mattl> they didn't beat them. they drew.
[02:44] <mattl> 0-0.
[02:44] <effie_jayx> right...
[02:44] <mattl> and then Man Utd came to exeter and beat them 2-0.
[02:44] <effie_jayx> but tha's to beat them ...
[02:45] <effie_jayx> but you follow football :)
[02:45] <juliux> hi mako_
[02:59] <EdsipeR> morning
[03:01] <sbaush> hi all
[03:02] <EdsipeR> hi sbaush
[03:09] <justMatt> hey whats the time? UTC of course?
[03:09] <juliux> justMatt, date -U ;)
[03:09] <juliux> justMatt, it is 14:09 UTC
[03:09] <justMatt> lol ta :D
[03:10] <effie_jayx> ok
[03:10] <effie_jayx> let's have some fun... what time is it in your country...
[03:10] <effie_jayx> Contry - Time :)
[03:10] <effie_jayx> Venezuela - 10:00 am
[03:10] <justMatt> Australia 1240am :D
[03:10] <juliux> Germany 15:10
[03:11] <kuyky> portugal - 14:11
[03:11] <effie_jayx> amazing... synchronicity at it's best
[03:11] <effie_jayx> god bless the internet :)
[03:12] <justMatt> yes, indeed
[03:12] <tenshu> 15h12 france =)
[03:14] <atoponce> 7:14 usa mst
[03:15] <effie_jayx> it is worth it
[03:15] <effie_jayx> to sacrifice sleep or to get up early :)
[03:15] <atoponce> effie_jayx: yessir!
[03:15] <effie_jayx> how long have you been ubunteando?
[03:16] <atoponce> since warty
[03:16] <tenshu> breezy
[03:17] <effie_jayx> hoary... but I installed and breezy was just coming out...
[03:17] <justMatt> 5.04
[03:17] <effie_jayx> I miss hoary .... :(
[03:17] <atoponce> tristanbob showed me the light right when 4.10 came out, and i've been a user since
[03:17] <effie_jayx> I like innovation and all but my old pc is lagging behind...
[03:18] <effie_jayx> had you been using linux before?
[03:19] <atoponce> effie_jayx: yeah. slackware, redhat, mandrake, suse
[03:19] <effie_jayx> wow...
[03:20] <djay-il> atoponce: and all of them aren't something....
[03:20] <atoponce> nothing seemed to reaaly work for my laptop, so i switched distros a lot
[03:20] <atoponce> then i installed ubuntu....
[03:20] <atoponce> and the rest is history
[03:20] <atoponce> :)
[03:21] <djay-il> atoponce: I tried freebsd and debian before setting on something
[03:21] <Netfinity> sounds familiar, I started using ubuntu since warty and it was the only linux that installed smoothly on my old P1 IBM Thinkpad laptop.
[03:21] <atoponce> djay-il: how'd you like debian? and how do you like ubuntu compared to debian?
[03:22] <djay-il> atoponce: I liked debian less than FreeBSD, can't explain why. Ubuntu actually didn't work for me well enough, but I have to admin I haven't given enough effort
[03:23] <djay-il> I was impressed with 6.04 btw
[03:23] <atoponce> you liked freebsd better than debian? i gave freebsd a shot, and hated it
[03:23] <atoponce> not enough software
[03:23] <atoponce> djay-il: dapper?
[03:23] <djay-il> atoponce: well, thats personal I guess :-)
[03:23] <atoponce> yeah
[03:24] <leetcharmer> my favorite was Breezy.  That one effectively detected my hardware and worked the smoothest with my laptop
[03:24] <djay-il> atoponce: I don't remember them by names
[03:24] <leetcharmer> Edgy is good for my desktop.
[03:24] <djay-il> to tell the truth, my laptop is freakingly working only with Gentoo
[03:24] <atoponce> i like edgy
[03:24] <djay-il> even Windows can't be installed, some HD formatting problems
[03:24] <atoponce> lol
[03:25] <ailean> i don't want grumpygroundhog . . .
[03:25] <ailean> i know i'll end up installing it
[03:25] <ailean> and wrecking my system
[03:25] <leetcharmer> lawl, wut? Grumpy Groundhog?
[03:25] <atoponce> ailean: as will i
[03:25] <djay-il> yea, I wanted to sell it - and I couldn't, the guy wanted me to install Windows on it, and I just couldn't succeed
[03:25] <leetcharmer> it that the: work on any system -- version?
[03:25] <juliux> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/72212 <-- that is a nice bug report;)
[03:26] <ailean> leetcharmer, it's the latest development version, never intended to be released
[03:26] <Diego> HI
[03:26] <atoponce> leetcharmer: it's compared to debian sid.  the latest and greatest
[03:26] <djay-il> I wonder what's working for canonical is like
[03:26] <leetcharmer> is it any good?
[03:27] <atoponce> i would imagine it's pretty cool
[03:27] <atoponce> getting paid to work on ubuntu all day long? what could be better?
[03:27] <atoponce> :)
[03:27] <djay-il> atoponce: exactly
[03:27] <ailean> coding for a job is not my idea of fun
[03:27] <djay-il> I asked them but didn't get any answer
[03:28] <ailean> although working from home would be cool
[03:28] <atoponce> juliux: nice "bug". i completely agree
[03:29] <WB|Diego> HI
[03:29] <djay-il> ailean: thats exactly what I was thinking
[03:29] <djay-il> and you don't have actually to be at home :-)
[03:29] <ailean> what do you mean?
[03:30] <djay-il> well, enough to have a broadband access
[03:30] <ailean> you still need to do your job though ;)
[03:30] <atoponce> ailean: i work at home at times, and it's not all that great
[03:31] <effie_jayx> atoponce, I agree
[03:31] <WB|Diego> is the complete conversation in english ?
[03:31] <ailean> why not?
[03:31] <effie_jayx> specially if your daughter is around
[03:31] <ailean> WB|Diego, usually, yes
[03:31] <WB|Diego> OK
[03:31] <ailean> WB|Diego, where are you from?
[03:31] <effie_jayx> playing and wants you to play
[03:31] <ailean> heh
[03:31] <djay-il> but still, its better that dayjob
[03:31] <WB|Diego> I came form Germany
[03:31] <atoponce> ailean: kids bothering you, doing chores also, staying motivated, no one to socialize with...
[03:31] <WB|Diego> Bavaria
[03:31] <WB|Diego> is the exact localation
[03:32] <WB|Diego> so my first language is German
[03:32] <WB|Diego> ;)
[03:32] <effie_jayx> atoponce, and your wife saying ... I'ma buy some computer perfume... so maybe I can win you back
[03:32] <ailean> WB|Diego, there is #ubuntu-de, which is in German, but the classes are in english
[03:32] <ailean> WB|Diego, you seem to speak good english anyway ;)
[03:32] <atoponce> effie_jayx: exactly. my wife calls my computer the "other wife"
[03:32] <WB|Diego> and the openweek, is in that channel ?
[03:32] <ailean> no
[03:32] <WB|Diego> ailean
[03:32] <ailean> that's here, in English
[03:33] <WB|Diego> Ok
[03:33] <WB|Diego> yes
[03:33] <WB|Diego> good
[03:33] <WB|Diego> ailean, where do you come from ?
[03:33] <ailean> scotland
[03:33] <WB|Diego> nice
[03:33] <ailean> so we have to speak english :)
[03:33] <WB|Diego> so, your first language ist english
[03:34] <WB|Diego> yes
[03:34] <WB|Diego> it's right
[03:34] <ailean> yes, it is
[03:34] <ailean> i speak Scots, Spanish and French too
[03:34] <WB|Diego> ohh really ?
[03:34] <ailean> but zero german ;)
[03:34] <WB|Diego> that'S good
[03:34] <juliux> WB|Diego, moin an die bayern;)
[03:34] <WB|Diego> Kein Deutsch. Das ist sehr schlecht ;)
[03:35] <ailean> i understood that ;)
[03:35] <WB|Diego> Servus juliux
[03:35] <ailean> no german, that is very bad
[03:35] <WB|Diego> OK
[03:35] <atoponce> brb
[03:35] <WB|Diego> English is esier to learn ;)
[03:35] <WB|Diego> esier, is it correct ?
[03:36] <ailean> easier
[03:36] <WB|Diego> oh
[03:36] <WB|Diego> yes
[03:36] <ailean> english is difficult for most people in the world. you're lucky that you speak a germanic language too.
[03:37] <WB|Diego> yes, and for my age ;)
[03:37] <ailean> and, because i speak spanish and french, i can easily learn other romantic languages
[03:37] <djay-il> romantic?
[03:37] <djay-il> :-)
[03:37] <ailean> i went to sicily a couple of years ago and was speaking basic italian within a couple of weeks ;)
[03:37] <ailean> djay-il, yes, they're called romantic languages
[03:38] <djay-il> roman you mean?
[03:38] <ailean> Spanish, French, Italian, Portugese . . .
[03:38] <WB|Diego> I think english is enough
[03:38] <ailean> no, i mean romantic ;)
[03:38] <djay-il> lol
[03:39] <WB|Diego> German and bavarian were anyway not the same ;)
[03:39] <ailean> english is enough, but we english speakers don't speak other languages . . .
[03:40] <WB|Diego> I always still learning english
[03:40] <ailean> i'm sorry, i don't know anything about germanic languages. how are they not the same?
[03:40] <WB|Diego> next year I will written my
[03:40] <WB|Diego> Final examination
[03:40] <RichiH> they are
[03:40] <RichiH> it's just a common thing to say amongst us
[03:41] <RichiH> i mean, the really hard dialects are almost different languages
[03:41] <RichiH> and plattdeutsch definately is
[03:41] <heikki> but you don't have to learn any other languages if you don't want, but try to live and speak only Finnish in nowadays world :)
[03:41] <ailean> lol
[03:41] <RichiH> but bavarian tends to be nearer to english from the vocabulary than standard german
[03:41] <ailean> my finnish is even worse than my german . . .
[03:42] <WB|Diego> German and Bavarian have not the same accent
[03:42] <RichiH> WB|Diego: you need to improve your grammar ;)
[03:42] <RichiH> WB|Diego: i suggest readin english book
[03:42] <RichiH> s
[03:42] <RichiH> works like a charm!
[03:42] <WB|Diego> really ?
[03:42] <RichiH> yes
[03:42] <heikki> yes
[03:42] <WB|Diego> lol
[03:42] <RichiH> english books are key to really learning the language
[03:42] <heikki> we have to read some english books in school
[03:43] <ailean> i had some salty finnish sweets . . . they were very strange
[03:43] <heikki> upper secondary school
[03:43] <RichiH> but anyone can tell you are a german trying to speak english from ten miles of
[03:43] <WB|Diego> grammer, yes it not the best
[03:43] <WB|Diego> ;)
[03:43] <RichiH> that's the friendly way of saying it ;p
[03:43] <ailean> feic sake RichiH - why are you saying that?
[03:43] <RichiH> feic?
[03:44] <ailean> yeah, it's like fuck but you can say it to your granny :)
[03:44] <heikki> :)
[03:44] <ailean> i suppose it's a scottish and irish thing
[03:44] <RichiH> ah
[03:45] <WB|Diego> Yes, I have no problem with your statement
[03:45] <RichiH> that would be for feic's sake then, though
[03:45] <RichiH> WB|Diego: and do not get discouraged when you have trouble reading them at first
[03:45] <atoponce> 15 minutes...
[03:45] <RichiH> i also sucked :)
[03:45] <andrew> till i have to be at class...
[03:45] <RichiH> used to, more specifically
[03:45] <WB|Diego> what reading ?
[03:45] <ailean> RichiH, i can't believe you're telling me how to speak my first language . . .
[03:46] <ailean> :)
[03:46] <heikki> :)
[03:46] <ailean> feic sake is perfectly acceptable and it comes from "for feic's sake", but it's right!
[03:46] <RichiH> ailean: probably because i did not do such a thing?
[03:46] <ailean> :)
[03:46] <RichiH> i was talking to WB|Diego
[03:46] <ailean> aye ye did
[03:46] <RichiH> ah, you meant that weird uk slang
[03:46] <RichiH> pft
[03:46] <ailean> lol
[03:46] <ailean> Scots?
[03:47] <WB|Diego> yes, but I could learn
[03:47] <WB|Diego> still much more
[03:47] <RichiH> move away from the coast and that bloody problem solves itself in a few years
[03:47] <WB|Diego> I'm young ;)
[03:48] <ailean> Scots is aboot as diffrent frae Inglis as Dutch is frae German.  It developit as a seperate leid an aw.
[03:48] <ailean> But ye can unnerston it A'd think.
[03:48] <RichiH> ailean: that's only cause sheep can't pronounce half of the english words ;)
[03:49] <RichiH> nope, can't do, sorry
[03:49] <ypsila> moin
[03:49] <WB|Diego> RichiH
[03:49] <ailean> aren't you a delight
[03:49] <WB|Diego> where do you come from ?
[03:49] <ailean> i'll come back later.
[03:50] <RichiH> WB|Diego: munich
[03:50] <WB|Diego> cool
[03:50] <RichiH> WB|Diego: right now, i am in india, though
[03:50] <ypsila> RichiH: moin W
[03:50] <RichiH> and it's dinner time
[03:50] <RichiH> w?
[03:50] <ypsila> sorry Wuerzburg
[03:50] <RichiH> ah
[03:50] <WB|Diego> Ich wohne ca. 75 Km von Mnchen entfernt.
[03:51] <ypsila> lach
[03:51] <ypsila> where exactly?
[03:51] <RichiH> nice
[03:51] <WB|Diego> niederbayern
[03:51] <WB|Diego> near Landshut
[03:51] <RichiH> i need to run, catch you later
[03:51] <ypsila> nice region
[03:51] <WB|Diego> yes
[03:51] <RichiH> eww, niederbayern
[03:51] <ypsila> see you Riggs
[03:51] <RichiH> ;)
[03:51] <WB|Diego> eww ?
[03:52] <RichiH> sagt man, wenn was eklig ist
[03:52] <RichiH> ;)
[03:52] <ypsila> we should use english
[03:52] <jjtec1> bit early yet?
[03:54] <juliux> moin to all german ubuntus and hello to the rest;)
[03:54] <ypsila> moin from Germany
[03:54] <WB|Diego> lol
[03:54] <WB|Diego> moin
[03:54] <WB|Diego> hello
[03:55] <atoponce> moin from usa
[03:55] <tenshu> moin?
[03:55] <WB|Diego> hello
[03:55] <WB|Diego> good afternoom
[03:55] <WB|Diego> ;)
[03:55] <juliux> tenshu, it's from nothern germany
[03:55] <minimec> so the show is beginnig soon ;)
[03:55] <WB|Diego> do you have a pistol ?
[03:56] <ypsila> tenshu: "moin" is german and means "hello"
[03:56] <WB|Diego> atoponce
[03:56] <tenshu> ok
[03:56] <WB|Diego> lol
[03:56] <atoponce> WB|Diego: ?
[03:56] <ypsila> tenshu: where are you from?
[03:56] <WB|Diego> atoponce, do you have a gun ?
[03:56] <atoponce> yes
[03:56] <tictacaddict> is moin a common greeting?  I took a little German and don't recall hearing that
[03:56] <WB|Diego> cool
[03:56] <atoponce> why?
[03:56] <popey> moin is used a lot on irc
[03:57] <WB|Diego> lol
[03:57] <ypsila> tictacaddict: no, it comes from the north around Hamburg
[03:57] <juliux> ypsila, oh now
[03:57] <popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moin
[03:57] <WB|Diego> only so
[03:57] <ypsila> and was used in a very nice comic "werner" a lot
[03:57] <atoponce> i have a walther p99 9mm
[03:57] <jono> right, nearly there
[03:57] <jono> everyone ready for some MOTU action?
[03:57] <WB|Diego> picture ?
[03:57] <atoponce> you'll notice, that a german gun
[03:57] <tictacaddict> I'm ready!
[03:57] <popey> Give it to me baby!
[03:57] <WB|Diego> What is MoTU ?
[03:57] <juliux> ypsila, in hamburg it is not often used more in emsland and schlesswigholstein
[03:57] <datten> ahoi
[03:57] <minimec> atoponce: just by curiosity... Why do you have a gun?
[03:58] <heikki> WB|Diego: master of the universe
[03:58] <effie_jayx> Masters of the Unverse
[03:58] <tictacaddict> Masters... of The UNIVERSE!
[03:58] <effie_jayx> as in He-man :)
[03:58] <WB|Diego> And what does that mean ?
[03:58] <jono> led by Prince Adam Holbach
[03:58] <atoponce> i love to go shooting, and i want to protect my home
[03:58] <jono> :P
[03:58] <ypsila> juliux: but I guess "werner" made ist spread all over the rest
[03:58] <dholbach> can we move the gun discussion to somewhere else and general chatter to  #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
[03:58] <dholbach> :-)
[03:58] <tictacaddict> like, the universe repository
[03:58] <tenshu> yeah =)
[03:58] <minimec> atoponce: ok. Where do you come from?
[03:58] <dholbach> GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY :-)
[03:58] <atoponce> minimec: usa
[03:58] <tenshu> hi dholbach
[03:58] <juliux> good morning dhaumann
[03:58] <highvoltage> hi mr dholbach
[03:58] <juliux> good morning dholbach
[03:58] <atoponce> dholbach: moin
[03:58] <jono> might be an idea to give it two more mins dhaumann
[03:58] <WB|Diego> Moin
[03:59] <jono> dholbach,
[03:59] <jono> still not quite 3pm
[03:59] <ypsila> moin
[03:59] <tenshu> moin =)
[03:59] <rikai> Wow... this channel is so much cleaner when you have joins/parts turned off O.o
[03:59] <jono> allow all the late stragglers to come in :P
[03:59] <minimec> minimec: I have a gun too, a SIG P220. I was an officer of the swiss army.
[03:59] <dholbach> jono: yes
[03:59] <atoponce> rikai: yes it is.
[03:59] <PriceChild> minimec: just said something to himself...
[03:59] <tictacaddict> rikai: I just realized this myself
[03:59] <minimec> atoponce: I have a gun too, a SIG P220. I was an officer of the swiss army.
[03:59] <tenshu> lets move to classroom-chat =)
[03:59] <WB|Diego> http://www.armurerie-girod.com/a_utils/mod/image.asp?action=RESIZE&loc=/a_data/prods/&file=3120200_lCP99.jpg&reqx=575
[03:59] <WB|Diego> oh
[03:59] <WB|Diego> sorry
[04:00] <jono> ok lets go! :)
[04:00] <dholbach> guys.... leave the guns out of this room :)
[04:00] <WB|Diego> yes. move it the classromm-chat
[04:00] <dholbach> Welcome everybody!
[04:00] <minimec> PriceChild: Yeah... sh... happens
[04:00] <WB|Diego> yes, move it to the classromm-chat
[04:00] <ypsila> pscchht
[04:00] <rikai> i just realized that you coud right click in the tree view on the channel and disable joins/parts with a single checkbox.
[04:00] <dholbach> I'm happy to take on questions as we go, but please ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and always put a "QUESTION: " in front of them
[04:00] <datten> dholbach set +m on the Channel! :)
[04:00] <jono> rikai, shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
[04:01] <dholbach> no, we won't moderate the channel, not necessary
[04:01] <dholbach> This session is about MOTU, the Masters of the Universe.
[04:01] <dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, I work for Canonical and my main objectives are Ubuntu's Desktop and working with teams like MOTU, Telepathy, Accessibility, the Art team and others. I joined the MOTUs nearly two years ago and we were around 5 of them at that time.
[04:01] <ypsila> ok then
[04:01] <dholbach> The name originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages. 'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community. 'main' and 'restricted' hold 4829 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 15855. So as the name suggests, the MOTU team takes care of 'universe' (and 'multiverse' also). We currently have 57 members. And we hang out in #ubuntu-motu
[04:02] <n3t0> eggman, \o/
[04:02] <dholbach> What do MOTUs generally do?
[04:02] <dholbach> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages. Since we don't follow the concept of applying the rigorous big maintainer lock, it's your choice which package you take care of.
[04:02] <dholbach> We have people
[04:03] <dholbach>  * taking care only of their own packages
[04:03] <dholbach>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
[04:03] <dholbach>  * fixing lots of different packages
[04:03] <dholbach> (* working on no packages at all)
[04:03] <dholbach> If you belong to the last category, listen up! This is your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community. :-)
[04:03] <dholbach> So how do I become a MOTU?
[04:04] <dholbach> That's very easy. You basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
[04:04] <eggman> n3t0, hi !
[04:04] <dholbach> I personally always found the second way to be much easier and you learn a lot along the way. As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you. We have a lightweight process for that in place.
[04:04] <dholbach> After a while, when you've become more comfortable with packaging, the processes and you've worked with a couple of people, you will hear that people are tired of uploading your packages and you should be able to do so yourself. :-)
[04:05] <dholbach> Any questions up until now? If so, just ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[04:05] <Hobbsee> dholbach: after about the 50th, or so?  :P
 QUESTION: How do I get started with packaging then?
[04:07] <dholbach> ailean: I'll mention some areas where MOTUs work in just some minutes - if you need any help with anything, either ask me or on #ubuntu-motu - ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com is also a good start
 QUESTION: Is *anything* (free) fair game for packaging?
[04:08] <dholbach> popey: the source of your package will be checked by MOTUs and by our Archive Admins, apart from license questions there are other things to consider as well, but we're generally open for good quality open source software.
 QUESTION: How many packages/how long does it normally take before you're considered "adept"
[04:08] <dholbach> PriceChild: that depends: we had people with a Debian background or people who dug right into packaging and were MOTUs within 3 weeks
[04:09] <dholbach> PriceChild: if you find something intersting for you, it should be an easy challenge :)
 QUESTION: what language(s) should i be familiar with, if needed?
[04:10] <dholbach> atoponce: in general, every skill you have with programming or checking and fixing software is of help, but I found that a natural curiosity and putting some work into learning and asking got most people there
 QUESTION: If I know someone who is already a MOTU, should I latch on to them to get them to upload for me?
[04:11] <dholbach> popey: we have the process for sponsoring described on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ
[04:11] <popey> thansk
[04:11] <dholbach> but yeah, if you know somebody already, even better. :-)
[04:11] <popey> :)
 QUESTION: How do I get a pony?
[04:11] <popey> he will live to regret it :)
[04:11] <PriceChild> yay :)
[04:11] <dholbach> PriceChild: ask mneptok or Mithrandir :-)
[04:11] <PriceChild> hehe :)
[04:11] <PriceChild> thanks
[04:11] <dholbach> Ok, I move on and pick up some questions later on again
[04:11] <Hobbsee> haha
[04:12] <dholbach> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but also a matter of teamwork and trust. The current process asks you to become an Ubuntu member in the Community Council meeting (where you are recognized for your efforts) and become a member of 'ubuntu-dev' after the Technical Board was happy with you on a technical basis. That process will change in the near future and a MOTU council (let's see if it will be called
[04:12] <dholbach>  'Council Grayskull' in the end...), which will do the approval.
[04:12] <jono> woo!
[04:12] <dholbach> Things the team does:
[04:12] <dholbach> We work on Bugs, just to put some numbers into the discussion:
[04:12] <dholbach>  * 10563 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (66274 in Ubuntu total)
[04:12] <dholbach>  * 6739 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (46063 closed in Ubuntu total)
[04:13] <dholbach> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone. If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
[04:13] <dholbach>  1) team members,
[04:13] <dholbach>  2) the Debian maintainer and
[04:13] <dholbach>  3) the upstream author
[04:13] <dholbach> you can ask and work with. Working on bugs is highly rewarding: sometimes it's a one line fix, you find in the upstream CVS already and you make a lot of users happy.
[04:13] <dholbach> Teams
[04:14] <dholbach> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
[04:14] <dholbach>  * Games team
[04:14] <dholbach>  * Media team
[04:14] <dholbach>  * Science team
[04:14] <dholbach>  * Photo team
[04:14] <dholbach>  * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
[04:14] <dholbach> and a lot of other teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that. If you have good ideas for a team and want to kickstart it, let me know: dholbach@ubuntu.com
[04:14] <dholbach> jono will be able to help out as well.
[04:15] <jono> indeed
[04:15] <dholbach> Transitions! That's usually an easy way to get involved.
[04:15] <n3t0> eggman, im here
[04:15] <dholbach> In order to use a new technology consistently across the whole archive, we sometimes need to change several hundreds of packages. This is gratifying work also, as it's sometimes easy to do and nice to do this within a team. Good examples of this were:
[04:15] <dholbach>  * the switch from python2.3 to python2.4 (as a default)
[04:15] <dholbach>  * the use of gcc4
[04:15] <dholbach>  * the transition to use Xorg
[04:16] <dholbach>  * ...
[04:16] <dholbach> We used to have  H U G E   working lists on the wiki, nowadays we often use Malone to keep track of these.
[04:16] <dholbach> Get new packages in!
[04:16] <dholbach> Ubuntu has become a great place for users. Lots of software is packaged already, but your personal pet project might be missing still. This also is a gratifying task, as you make many users happy by providing high-quality software in the archive.
[04:16] <dholbach> All NEW packages go through a review process, which currently happens on http://revu.tauware.de - this might change in the near future. Reviewing is a great way to mentor, but also to learn, which leads us to our next point.
[04:17] <dholbach> More questions? I'll pick some of those that came up earlier
 QUESTIONS are there howtos how to start with packaging?
[04:17] <jjtec1> QUESTION:Malone?
[04:18] <dholbach> juliux: yes, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation has a bunch of links to good documentation
[04:18] <dholbach> but as I said before, I always found it easy to check existing packages to learn from them
 QUESTION: ok, flipside, is there anything you are *not* interested in seeing packaged?
[04:19] <dholbach> popey: as long as it serves a purpose, makes users happy and doesn't freak out the archive-admins, ... :-)
[04:19] <popey> binary blobs included?
[04:19] <dholbach> for example :)
 QUESTION: Is the process different if I am packaging something of my own creation, compared with a tarball that I find online that isn't currently packaged?
[04:20] <dholbach> popey: I shouldn't think so, but in the case where you wrote the software, you'd have a good relationship to the upstream developer already... which is good. ;-)
[04:20] <popey> :)
 QUESTION: Always been a curiosity of mine, and i cant think of any better time to ask, so... Is MOTU supposed to be a play off of He-Man?
[04:20] <dholbach> rikai: you should ask ogra, as far as I know, it was HIS idea :)
 QUESTION: Should you ask (permission) before you start packaging something if it will be included or can you just find some new software and start packaging
[04:20] <dholbach> Cas: we keep track of what we package on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates - so it's good to check that
[04:21] <dholbach> Cas: in addition to that, it's good to check the debian bug tracker for ITP (intent to package) or RFP (request for package) requests, as this way you have people you can work with on the packaging
[04:21] <dholbach> Cas: apart from that: just do it! :-)
 QUESTION: is Hobbsee really the Queen of the Universe (QOTU)
[04:21] <Cas> :)
[04:22] <dholbach> Jucato: I think that should be "Mistress of the Universe"
[04:22] <dholbach> but I'm not sure... :-)
[04:22] <Jucato> hehe
[04:22] <dholbach> I think I'll take on some more questions later
[04:22] <Hobbsee> dholbach: no, queen.  i dont like the title of mistress.
[04:22] <dholbach> I see :-)
[04:22] <dholbach> Mentoring
[04:23] <dholbach> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
[04:23] <dholbach> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail. Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today! :-)
[04:23] <dholbach> Merges
[04:23] <dholbach> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers. So this is what we currently do for Feisty. If you want to help out, just grab a merge from http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/multiverse.html and go ahead.
[04:24] <dholbach> MOTU School
[04:24] <dholbach> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School - if you want to hold a session or request a session, let us know on the mailing list and on the wiki pages.
[04:24] <dholbach> Documentation!
[04:25] <dholbach> Jordan Mantha (laserjock) and others have worked hard on the Packaging Guide, but they'd always be glad to have people who are interested in explaining and helping new MOTU hopefuls to find their way into the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation lists a few pages of interest.
[04:25] <MarkoKaa>  /msg nickserv set unfiltered on
[04:25] <MarkoKaa> sorry
[04:25] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and its subpages could also do with some helping hands. MOTU is a community effort and has grown into all sorts of directions over time, the wiki pages bear witness of that, so it'd be great if you'd fix whatever documentation you found inaccurate.
[04:25] <dholbach> We're going to add all the question of today (and Saturday, we'll have another session at 16:00 UTC) to the wiki, especially to MOTU/FAQ.
[04:26] <dholbach> Do we have more questions?
[04:26] <jjtec1> QUESTION:What is Malone?
[04:26] <atoponce> jjtec1: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[04:26] <dholbach> jjtec1: http://launchpad.net/malone - our bug tracker
 QUESTION: ubuntu freezes from debian just before release. if i package a more recent version of software, will it get included in the current release, or saved for the next release? how is that handled?
[04:27] <dholbach> atoponce: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule - this is our current release schedule
[04:28] <dholbach> we'll stop importing automatically from Debian on December 21st and have UniverseFreeze on March 15th (although that's not on the schedule) - I'll fix that later on
 QUESTION:  is there a Java Team  working on the  OpenJDK inclusion in  Ubuntu ?
[04:28] <dholbach> leonel: we have a java team and doko is our most prominent java expert - you should ask them what their java plans are
[04:28] <dholbach> I don't know. Sorry.
 QUESTION how many hours a week (contributing) is the minimum to be useful? (2 hours, 1 day,...)
[04:29] <dholbach> vyoman: a good question - we had a couple of people already who were concerned about not having enough time
[04:30] <dholbach> vyoman: if you maintain a package, it's enough to check the bugs every now and then and reply to them
[04:30] <dholbach> vyoman: we really don't tie membership to hours of work you spend on IRC, etc
 QUESTION: what are some existing packages that would be good examples to look at?  Something not too complicated and well-packaged
[04:31] <dholbach> jrib: we have a wiki page with some example packages for that - I'll find out for you where it is
[04:31] <dholbach> jrib: also the packaging guide ( https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html ) might have something
 QUESTION: If there's a package that's already in the Ubuntu repository, but which has not been updated in a long time so that the current version is a couple of years newer than the one in the Ubuntu repository, would there be a way to get involved there, and work with the package's upstream to make sure we have the latest version in the Ubuntu repositories?
[04:32] <SimonAnibal> dholbach: I should mention I have no real programming experience
[04:32] <dholbach> SimonAnibal: absolutely, if you update a package (and it's not already UpstreamVersionFreeze), then that's cool
[04:32] <dholbach> SimonAnibal: especially if you are able to track the new incoming bugs and liaise with upstream
[04:32] <dholbach> that's a great contribution
 QUESTION: merging with debian is from sid/unstable ?
[04:33] <dholbach> xerxas: yes, in most cases it's unstable, but in some the maintainer chooses to merge with experimental - seb128 and I do that in the Desktop Team with GNOME every now and then
[04:33] <dholbach> but mostly Debian 'unstable' yes.
[04:33] <xerxas> thanks
 QUESTION: Do MOTUs get invited to UDS? :)
[04:34] <Seeker`> QUESTION: UDS?
[04:34] <dholbach> popey: yes, people are invited for their contributions
[04:34] <popey> Ubuntu Developer Summit
[04:34] <dholbach> Seeker`: Ubuntu Development Summit
[04:34] <popey> excellent, thanks
 QUESTION: Can I be absolutely certain that all of the packages in Universe are released under a completely free license?
[04:34] <dholbach> tryggvib: having uploaded packages with faulty licenses already, I can say that the archive-admins do a VERY good job of checking them :-)
[04:35] <tryggvib> good to know
[04:36] <dholbach> we had a different take on the free-ness of certain parts than Debian did, documents were an example of that, but yes
 QUESTION: If a MOTU has been inactive for a while, is it possible to take over his/hers work without their approval?
[04:36] <dholbach> tryggvib: very good question
[04:36] <dholbach> maybe I wasn't clear enough before
[04:36] <dholbach> We don't have the BML, the Big Maintainer Lock :)
[04:36] <dholbach> so if you intend to fix a package, just do it
[04:37] <dholbach> of course it's better to ask the current maintainer or the team that takes care of that package
[04:37] <dholbach> we respect areas of expertise, but we generally take care of all packages as a team
[04:38] <dholbach> and talking to each other is a key skill everybody should have and develop as a MOTU hopeful
 QUESTION: What skills are recommended to be a productive member of the MOTU team? (Both in relation to technical skills, and interpersonal skills) In other words, what qualities are looked for in potential MOTUers?
[04:39] <dholbach> rikai: curiosity, motivation are important and a good sense of what's going on
[04:39] <dholbach> if you change a certain package you should be aware of the implications for others
[04:40] <dholbach> if you're good at teamwork and organisation that's great too
[04:40] <dholbach> I hope I was not too handwavy
[04:41] <rikai> Makes sense.
[04:41] <dholbach> The more things you know already, the better, but if not, it doesn't hurt. :-)
 QUESTION: If I have limited time available and poor skills can I still lend a hand ?
[04:42] <dholbach> jjtec1: you sure can. As part of the MOTU team, you'll learn new things every time and if you're able to help by reviewing, you can mentor other MOTU hopefuls. Reviewing often doesn't cost too much time, if you notice something, just tell your fellow team member.
[04:43] <dholbach> that's just one example - we have lots of other things that don't require a huge technical background either: bug triage, team organisation, etc
 QUESTION: You said there aren't any minimum requirements as to time spent helping on MOTU, which is nice. That said, is there an amount that you would LIKE to see(in an optimal situation)?
[04:43] <dholbach> rikai: hehe... sure :-)
[04:44] <dholbach> rikai: Jokes aside: an optimal situation is where somebody picks up a task and works on it reliably - that's more worth than being 24/7 in #ubuntu-motu :-)
 QUESTION: What could the MOTU do better? Where do you see that it could be improved?
[04:45] <dholbach> popey: Documentation
[04:45] <popey> documentatino of upstream packages or of MOTU processes?
[04:45] <dholbach> as I said before our wiki could do with some serious clean up and I'll try to do my part in the next weeks
[04:45] <dholbach> popey: the MOTU wiki in general
[04:45] <popey> ok
[04:46] <dholbach> popey: we have a  bunch of old lists on there, confusing but still existing descriptions of things etc
[04:46] <popey> that would be tricky for a newbie to attack, no?
[04:46] <dholbach> I'm sure the other MOTUs in here have something else to mention as well :)
[04:46] <dholbach> popey: sure... but it helps if you as a MOTU hopeful add a question and an answer you got to MOTU/FAQ for example
[04:47] <dholbach> or ask on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com to review a text you just wrote for the wiki
[04:47] <popey> ok
[04:47] <dholbach> but I agree, it's not the optimal thing to start with
 QUESTION: if I am only developping python applications and don't know C,C++,... is than packaging more easy to learn and will I be able to a potential motu packager?
[04:48] <dholbach> stani: you certainly don't have to know all the programming languages there are
[04:48] <dholbach> stani: if you're willing to learn, ask, try, fail and repeat again, that should be good :-)
[04:48] <dholbach> people who attended the Packaging101 session on Monday might have experienced what is part of the MOTU action:
[04:49] <dholbach> you often spend time to make a package build again, or you make sure that files get installed in the right place, etc
[04:49] <dholbach> there are many different tasks around and surely not all require C skills
 QUESTION: Do you have to be mindful of packaging for differench architectures than your own - i.e. I only have i386, no 64 bit, no sparc, is that a problem?
[04:50] <dholbach> popey: no, not at all, if you build a package on your machine and it builds it's mostly safe to assume that it builds everywhere, especially if the upstream project existed for a while
[04:51] <dholbach> popey: if the package ftbfs (fails to build from source), the friendly build daemon software will send you a mail and you can still ask a member of your team with that piece of hardware to help you debug it
[04:51] <popey> "friendly" you say :)
[04:51] <dholbach> (I have no sparc either... ;-))
 QUESTION: Is there a log of Mondays session?
[04:51] <dholbach> oh that was answered already
[04:52] <dholbach> If you want to join the MOTU and help making Universe ROCK, start here: http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/motu.png
[04:52] <dholbach> I mean here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU ;-)
[04:52] <popey> lol
 QUESTION: Can you please by me a sparc ? :)
[04:52] <dholbach> popey: ask fabbione - maybe has a spare sparc ;)
 QUESTION: are there plans for developer machines for MOTUs?
[04:53] <dholbach> siretart: good question - I didn't attend the session at UDS
[04:53] <ivan> testing
[04:53] <dholbach> siretart: elmo and LaserJock are your best bets for that question
[04:53] <dholbach> siretart: I know that there is work in progress concerning the PPAs (personal package archives)
[04:53] <siretart> ok
[04:54] <dholbach> siretart: but 'root access' on data center machines will not be easy to get past elmo ;-)
 QUESTION:  I find packaging typical autotools things very easy, but what about guidelines for programs which do not use autotools?
[04:55] <dholbach> evarlast: a lot of other packages do that: python packages using the python distutils (think setup.py), perl packages using else homebrewn, packages that just install files to a random place, etc
[04:55] <dholbach> evarlast: there are guidelines for some sorts of packages and there are tools to make life of a package maintainer easier
[04:55] <dholbach> CDBS for example has a python-distutils class, a perl class and so on
 QUESTION: elmo?
[04:56] <ogra> the datacenter god we all have to pray to ;)
[04:56] <dholbach> James Troup, our king of Infrastructure
[04:56] <dholbach> Ok everybody, there seem to be no question left. Thanks everybody
[04:57] <dholbach> (for those of you coming late: there's another session on Saturday at 16:00 UTC)
[04:57] <jrib> thanks for the session, dholbach
[04:57] <dholbach> gracias
[04:57] <irlie> thanks
[04:57] <rikai> Thank you very much dholbach, you've been enlightening!
[04:57] <heikki> thanks to you!
[04:57] <amnesia> dholbach: same session or something new
[04:57] <ypsila> thank you
[04:58] <juliux> thanks dhaumann
[04:58] <juliux> thanks dholbach
[04:58] <dholbach> amnesia: I hope there'll be a bunch of new questions as I'll try to integrate the feedback of you all into the notes I had
[04:58] <ypsila> pruhust
[04:58] <popey> thanks dholbach
[04:58] <popey> \o/
[04:58] <PriceChild> that's a big hug :)
[04:58] <dholbach> haha
[04:59] <Jucato> ew
[04:59] <stani> thanks a lot!
[04:59] <Seeker`> popey! Down boy!
[04:59] <Jucato> dholbach has long arms :)
[04:59] <popey> Woof woof!
[04:59] <ogra> Jucato, he trains them daily ;)
[04:59] <dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu and on https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
[04:59] <Jucato> lol
[04:59] <jjtec1> that must hurt:-D
[05:00] <WB|Diego> bye
[05:01] <dholbach> and by the way, there's a HUG DAY going on on #ubuntu-bugs
[05:01] <PriceChild> hug day or bug day?
[05:02] <amnesia> both
[05:02] <ogra> hug day ;)
[05:02] <PriceChild> :)
[05:02] <ogra> solving bugs gets paied with hugs during these days ;)
[05:02] <amnesia> PriceChild: hug for a bug
[05:04] <jono> hey
[05:04] <jono> all set ogra ?
[05:05] <ogra> ok, 5 past the hour seems like a good time to start ...
[05:05] <ogra> soo ... Edubuntu !
[05:05] <ogra> i'll give a short 10-15min intro and will be available for questions then ...
[05:06] <ogra> Edubuntu is an ancient african word for "bring that free software education to the people" ....
[05:06] <ogra> n just kidding ...
[05:06] <ogra> *no even
[05:06] <Riot777> lol
[05:06] <ogra> edubuntu is an ubuntu derivative focusing on educational needs
[05:07] <ogra> first specced out at the UBZ conference in sydney
[05:07] <ogra> (by the founder of k12ltsp and the ltsp upstream guys)
[05:08] <marcin32> hello all
[05:08] <ogra> shortly after that spec was written canonical held an edubuntu summit in london
[05:08] <ivan> QUESTION: there are several program frequently used in Engineering Studyies, like Opnet, Autocad, PSpice... is there any alternatives available y ubuntu OS
[05:08] <ivan> ??
[05:08] <bobafett> hllo?
[05:08] <ogra> with a buch of educators attending and speccing out the needs of a first edubuntu release
[05:09] <ogra> ivan please ask questions in -chat ...
[05:09] <ivan> sorry
[05:09] <ogra> there was an initial roadmap we wanted to implement ->
[05:09] <ivan> I'm a novice in chat
[05:09] <ogra> 1.) conquer the single classroom
[05:10] <ogra> 2.) be able to be run in a complete school environment
[05:10] <ogra> 3.) also be sized for municipalities
[05:10] <ogra> the first edubuntu release was mostly build by me alone ...
[05:11] <ogra> since i'm no educator the app selection only reflects what i could get as input from the educators attending the edubuntu conf as well as looking at other distros
[05:12] <ogra> additionally we never cared which desktop an app belongs to, we try to select the best item for one task and dont care about the desktop environment ...
[05:13] <ogra> ... which always turned out to be a challenge with the limited CD size we have ....
[05:13] <ogra> QUESTION: are the K12LTSP folks working on Edubuntu now or are they still working on K12LTSP?
[05:14] <ogra> eric harrison (funder of k12 is going on to develop k12 but helps out where he can (we are his fallback ;) additionally many devs from the k12 community started working for edubuntu
[05:14] <ogra> QUESTION: there are several program frequently used in Engineering Studyies, like Opnet, Autocad, PSpice... is there any alternatives available y ubuntu OS ??
[05:15] <ogra> there are things like qcad etc but indeed not all of them will direclyt work with files of any proprietary solution ...
[05:15] <ogra> QUESTION: are there anyways we can help push edubuntu into schools when we don't have kids?
[05:15] <ogra> edubuntu isnt only focused on school usage
[05:15] <ogra> there are many libraries and even internet cafes that use it
[05:16] <ogra> since the focus was on the single classroom use and edubuntu is also the platform that integrates the new ltsp implementation at the highest possible degree, people tend to use it in other areas as well
[05:16] <NaMcO^> hi
[05:17] <ogra> with the feisty release some major things will change in edubuntu
[05:17] <ogra> we will have another educators conference to spot more and probably better apps for the new release
[05:18] <ogra> we'll be able to ship way more apps since we'll be able to have a second CD now
[05:18] <ogra> and we'll go for network authentication in feisty, which means we can easily grow to school level
[05:18] <ogra> QUESTION: What is the age bracket that edubuntu was designed for?
[05:19] <ogra> we decided that for the beginning we'd start with the lower grades and grow over time
[05:19] <ogra> the status edubuntu is now i would say its for students from 6-15 years ...
[05:19] <Sriram> QUESTION: What is the inspiration behind this great ubuntu movement
[05:20] <ogra> but its planned to provide good enough app selections for universities from feisty on
[05:20] <Sriram> QUESTION:Will Ubuntu find a space in enterprise segment
[05:20] <ogra> QUESTION: I'm presenting a paper on using Edubuntu at a technology in teacher education conference. The focus is on providing access (and thus social justice) to provide access to teachers and students -- what message(s) would you like to see shared with teacher educators who are potential future users of Edubuntu?
[05:20] <ogra> Siram please ask your questions in -chat ...
[05:21] <ogra> most important for the current edubuntu team is to get as much feedback as possible on teaching methods and preferred apps at the moment
[05:22] <ogra> finding the drawbacks in our app selection and improving it ...
[05:23] <apral> QUESTION:Where does edubuntu stand now in education circles marketwise?
[05:23] <ogra> we also need as much help as we can get on documentation and teaching content ...
[05:23] <ogra> QUESTION:Will Ubuntu find a place in enterprise segment
[05:24] <ogra> even though thats an edubuntu session, edubuntu will be the first to completely implement network authentication with single sign on etc as a base for enterprise usage ....
[05:24] <ogra> ubuntu will be able to pull the good parts from edubuntu
[05:25] <ogra> apral, well, if you look at google trends edubuntu seems to be quite visible to the community
[05:25] <ogra> http://www.google.com/trends?q=edubuntu%2C+k12ltsp%2C+skolelinux
[05:26] <ogra> but the others are established way longer than edubuntu, so its still some way to go here ...
[05:26] <ogra> edubuntu has a great acceptance in southamerica (brazil specifically), africa and asia, its not used as much in urope or the us
[05:27] <ogra> COMMENT to ogra's response: one of the things that this particular teacher education conference is highly interested in are iLife-like tools for digital storytelling like projects. Development of a "suite" of tools along these lines would be helpful.
[05:27] <ogra> we'll see what we can find in that area, thanks for that comment :)
[05:27] <ogra> in june this year RichEd joined the edubuntu team and took over the role of the educational programme manager ..
[05:28] <ogra> he will care for the non technical parts and for more integration with educator needs
[05:28] <ogra> QUESTION: There will be an additional cd (2X) shipped via ShipIt, beginning with fiesty ?
[05:28] <ogra> it most likely wont be available via shipit ...
[05:29] <ogra> but it will have the biggest set of additional apps and language packages we can fit on it ...
[05:29] <ogra> i hope people will be able to at least buy it through the known channels ... so people with low bandwith will have all they need without being forced to have a network connection
[05:30] <ogra> COMMENT: ogra: I think you misunderstood maccabeus' question. You answered about what teachers should tell edubuntu instead of what edubuntu advocates should be telling the teachers.
[05:32] <ogra> well, edubuntu advocates should tell the truth, edubuntu is perfect for single classroom use in an environment for younger students, the installation of additional educational apps is very easy, but we rely on feedback ...
[05:32] <ogra> (does that make it clearer ?=)
[05:32] <ogra> we want to grow into the university and need input for that ...
[05:34] <ogra> also the documentation side of things could be better ...
[05:34] <ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy should give you something in your hand
[05:35] <ogra> maccabeus, ^ is that what you are looking for ?
[05:35] <ogra> QUESTION: <devilsadvocate> would'nt high schools be a better place to go to compared to universities?
[05:35] <ogra> in fact we'll target both since they only differ in the teaching software selection
[05:35] <apral> QUESTION:What does edubuntu offer now to get the younger kids interested :)?
[05:36] <ogra> for sure we'll go for highschools first try to grow into the uni market over time
 QUESTION: Can you add or do you know of any software that would aid in science/math related courses -- such as Physics?  I need a method to write down the formulas quickly for notes, and studying.
[05:37] <guglielf> apral: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat make your questions there
[05:37] <Schnorg> formulals you can write with latex
[05:37] <ogra> we have a MOTU team led by Jordan Mantha that is jst assembling a list of scientific apps for us to include in feisty
[05:37] <ogra> thats for the university side of things ...
 QUESTION: Is there (and what is it) a framework for developing Edubuntu apps?
[05:38] <leetcharmer> I know I could use latex -- but, I need something simple to just type quickly as the prof goes
[05:38] <ogra> there is no specific framework, all edubuntu developent is done inside of ubuntu
[05:39] <ogra> we're a part of ubuntu and depend on its development, edubuntu itself is just added value packages, different artwork and deep integration of things like LTSP
[05:39] <_ion> leetcharmer: I used texmacs a couple of years ago in a polytechnic.
[05:39] <ogra> (added value like teaching tools)
[05:39] <ogra> guys, can you take that to -chat ?
[05:39] <leetcharmer> _ion, how was your experience with that?
[05:40] <ogra> QUESTION: <jjtec1> How big is Jordan's team and is there room for help ?
[05:40] <ogra> indeed ;) there is always room for help
[05:40] <ogra> we're actively looking for volunteers in development, documentation and education
 QUESTION: is there a Look-and-Feel standard for Edubuntu?
[05:41] <ogra> sadly no, we tried to establish an artteam for edgy, but that ended up to be a single person
[05:41] <ogra> i'm hoping there willbe more in that area for feisty
 Question:  Currently my school is looking to migrate to another Distrobution with some sort of Distributed Filesystem( to allow root access to an individual fs per Student).  The reason being is that *nix is the class.  Is there any software packages that would allow this, and if so Would Edubuntu Support it??
[05:42] <ogra> not out of the box yet ....
[05:42] <ogra> edubuntu will have a netbooted-diskless-workstation mode i ltsp for feisty though ...
[05:43] <ogra> with some easy tweaks you can make it use things like AFS or GFS
 (can anyone tell me if edubuntu is gnome-based?)
[05:43] <ogra> the default desktop is gnome, but we ship all KDE libs and a lot of KDE software as well
[05:44] <ogra> we try not to think in terms of desktop environments  in edubuntu even the desktop is gnome because of the wider support it gets from the canonical side
 QUESTION: I've got 2 daughters in H.S. Algebra right now and I see a lot that can be done with an algebra app, but I'd like to have some infrasture code that would allow the user to drag symbols and numbers around
[05:46] <ogra> all i can say is: point me to an open source app that supports this and we'll try to include it in edubuntu, i'm not aware of any drag/drop algebra app yet
 Question : I've just seen the advocacy page and it seems most of the apps that give edubuntu the specialization are either DE neutral or are KDE apps  - why ship with gnome and then depend on kde apps? I've noticed that things like proxy settings and similar environment variables can get messy in such a situation. Why not just ship with KDE and have a more coherent interface?
[05:47] <ogra> thats simply because the dektop team and support for gnome is bigger in ubuntu and edubuntu simply relies on the base desktop ...
[05:47] <ogra> implementations of new stuff should be desktop independent
[05:47] <ogra> i.e. the newly implemented ltsp manager will have gtk as well as qt frontends
 QUESTION: So in fiesty, the aim of the first CD is still 6-15 year olds?
[05:48] <ogra> thats a good auestion we'll have to discuss with out educational manager during the development process, there is no final decision about any apps yet
[05:49] <ogra> but likely it will add support for the older students as well
 QUESTION: That brings me back to my infrastructure question, education applications all need similair capabilities, wouldn't it be nice to have a toolkit around that we all could use?
[05:50] <ogra> totally, but nobody stepped up to do such an effort yet ... edubuntu would majorly benefit from it ... especially if it would be desktop independent like freedesktop org implements things
[05:50] <ogra> so i see there are no more questions ...
[05:51] <ogra> i'd like to point everyone intrested in edubuntu and its development to the #edubuntu irc channel and the edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users mailing lists
[05:52] <SimonAnibal> ubuntu-education as well
 QUESTION:  How much compatiblity is their between edubuntu and proprietary solutions
[05:52] <ogra> well, there is as much as the proprietary solutions allow us :)
[05:52] <SimonAnibal> (both #ubuntu-education and the ubuntu-education mailing list)
[05:52] <davmor2> orga obiviously OOo
[05:52] <ogra> its them that set the limit
[05:52] <davmor2> for word
 QUESTION: Desktop independence, is that really a goal?  If so why? You are your own distro, you can declare your own standard.
[05:53] <ogra> well, indeed we can do that, but if you want to deeply integrate things like user management changes etc its helpful to have a big team in your back
[05:53] <ogra> edubuntus desktop is standing on the sholders of giants like dholbach and seb128 ;)
 Question - A mjor problem with selling edubuntu to a school is that the core use of computers is in teching programming languages - specifically Basic, C, in that age group. Is there anything that will help the transition from the windows environment to linux? Read as IDEs, compilers like QBasic. Also, are there attempts at making apps to familiarize young children with the linux environment itself?
[05:54] <ogra> there are a bunch of programming enviroments and IDEs in edubuntu you can easily install via add/remove
[05:55] <ogra> and indeed we have all freely avalilable compilers you can imagine ...
[05:56] <dholbach> ogra: you're flattering me. :)
[05:57] <ogra> heh, i only tell the truth ;)
 QUESTION: are support contracts available for edubuntu?
[05:57] <ogra> indeed they are, go and buy them ;)
[05:58] <ogra> ok, time is up, tanks everybody for your questions, feel free to drop by in #edubuntu any time
[05:59] <jono> ok
[05:59] <jono> right folks, the next hour is going to be a full Q+A session with me about the community, so start adding your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat now
[05:59] <jono> I am gonna grab a drink
[06:00] <tonyyarusso> Like he said, write questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat (not here, to help things run smoothly), and put QUESTION: before them so they're easy to see.
[06:01] <tonyyarusso> Basically, he'll take questions one at a time here, in an open but still structured manner, and other chatter can go in -chat so we stay focused
[06:01] <tryggvib_>  /msg nickserv link tryggvib tb2204
[06:01] <tryggvib_> crap
[06:01] <tonyyarusso> Might want to change that password tryggvib_
[06:01] <__lynX> Ouch. ^^
[06:01] <neuro_> oh dear :)
[06:02] <tryggvib_> how stupid was that :)
[06:02] <MarkoKaa> :P
[06:02] <neuro_> oh no, is jono doing another session?
[06:02] <juliux> tryggvib, i think you should change your password;)
[06:02] <neuro_> run, flee! :>
[06:02] <jono> neuro_, heh
[06:02] <jono> so any questions?
[06:02] <neuro_> i kid, of course
[06:02] <ogra> neuro_, just pull his beard ;)
[06:02] <neuro_> or lack thereof :>
[06:03] <neuro_> jono: has it progressed beyond bumfluff yet
[06:03] <jono> ok I am going to kick off discussing some of the future direction of the communitu
[06:03] <jono> neuro_, :P
[06:03] <jono> the ubuntu community today is a pretty diverse place
[06:03] <jono> we have a number of different types of disciplines represented
[06:03] <jono> for us to improve the community we need to make our teams much easier to join
[06:04] <jono> and those teams need to be better connected and report their actions more
 QUESTION: How different do you see the Ubuntu community to that of, say, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, or Gentoo?  Any pros and/or cons?
[06:04] <jono> I see the Ubuntu community as a hugely open and transparant community
[06:05] <jono> we don't suffer from the "water cooler effect" as much where developers working for a company talk to each other and don't update the community - our distributed community means that happens much less - sure it will happen to a point, but much less
[06:05] <jono> I have a huge amount of respect for the other communities, particularly Debian
[06:05] <jono> the Debian community has a strong base, and has become a pretty reliable place to be
[06:06] <jono> rasman> QUESTION: How does the commercial side of Ubuntu fit within the community?
[06:06] <jono> rasman, I think it is important that our commercial side (Canonical and other people who make money from Ubuntu and Ubuntu services) have a solid connection with the community
[06:07] <jono> as an example, Christina Armstrong who is CJA in here, is our communications hero at Canonical - Christina is looking to work with the Ubuntu Marketing Team where possible to have a solid relationship
[06:07] <jono> community is pretty much *all* about communication - the problems, the benefits, the blow-ups can often be tracked down to good or bad communication
[06:08] <jono> I think when that communication between a company and the community is solid, we have a fair palette of expectations to draw with
 QUESTION:  How do you see Ubuntu driving the apps that get built?  And have the app projects themselves been coming to Ubuntu for input?
[06:08] <jono> upstream developers base their process around predictable tools and platforms
[06:09] <jono> as many of you will know, I am involved in the Jokosher project, and we have built our development roadmap around the Ubuntu roadmap
[06:09] <jono> we did this for a few reasons:
[06:09] <jono>  * so we can get Jokosher in Ubuntu
[06:09] <jono>  * Ubuntu is hugely popular, which means a lot of people will use it when using Jokosher
[06:10] <jono>  * Ubuntu is representative of a typical desktop - no crazy of funky crack that confounds expectations
[06:10] <jono>  * A good solid release schedule that is pretty reliable
[06:10] <jono> as such, Ubuntu provides a solid base for us to develop on, and a good roadmap for getting our app out there
[06:10] <jono> and the reason why we chose the ubuntu roadmap?
[06:10] <jono> because pretty much *all* our devs use ubuntu
 QUESTION: are conflicts within the Ubuntu community resolved by spinning off another MyUbuntu ???
[06:11] <jono> conflicts are an interesting subject, and people have different approaches to them
[06:11] <jono> some people try to solve conflict by forking
[06:11] <jono> some try to solve it by creating new rules and governance
[06:11] <jono> in some situations, these are temporary solutions to deep problems
[06:12] <jono> we actively encourage derivative distributions, as many of them serve a purpose that Ubuntu does not exclusively
[06:12] <jono> we also want to encourage that valuble aspect of free software - the ability to take free software and roll it your own way
[06:12] <jono> but, I think with great power comes great responsibility :P
[06:13] <jono> we need to ensure that digressions from Ubuntu make feature-sense - I would personally not like to see derivs that are the same direction as Ubuntu, but just derived for no-good-reason - that is a NIH problem
 QUESTION: Will you as community manager welcome people from the gNewSense community?
[06:13] <jono> mattl, most certainly!
[06:14] <jono> I am always eager to talk to people who have got interesting things and ambition
[06:14] <jono> gNewSense is a good example of a deriv - it fits a need that Ubuntu does not 100% right now
[06:14] <jono> I am certainly keen to work with other derivs
[06:15] <jono> for many distros, Ubuntu offers a solid base that is built upon - take Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu etc
[06:15] <jono> we need to collaborate together where it makes sense, but to be different where it makes sense too
[06:15] <mattl> jono: as Mark Pilgrim says, "gNewSense is the reference implementation of software freedom"
[06:15] <jono> what I don't want to see is people re-inventing the wheel
[06:15] <jono> mattl, right
[06:15] <jono> mattl, and that of course depends on your view of freedom :P
[06:15] <jono> but thats another debate
[06:16] <mattl> heh, yes it is.
 QUESTION: Have bounties helped in brining a wider userbase to Ubuntu or is that just some geek cred?
[06:16] <jono> bounties have their place, and when used correctly, yes they do help
[06:16] <jono> but bounties are not the only solution to getting people over to Ubuntu
[06:16] <jono> bounties work well for certain things with a specific and targetted problem to solve, and with a certain type of developer
[06:17] <jono> the problem with bounties is that they often don't offer up enough cash for people
[06:17] <jono> I think growing a userbase and developerbase is an advocacy problem, and advocacy cannot be performed with a single technique
[06:17] <jono> we need many feathers to our bows to get people over
 QUESTIONS:  What do you mean by Ubuntu roadmap?
[06:18] <jono> rasman, the roadmap is the plan for Ubuntu is moving forward - it is the feature set and direction we want to take
[06:18] <jono> this is usually done at a release level - dapper roadmap, edgy roadmap, feisty roadmap etc
 QUESTION: back to apps, are there plans or a mechanism to put Ubuntu specific features into any of them?
[06:18] <jono> brian_, good question
[06:19] <jono> brian_, I am not the best person to answer this, as the distro team probably is
[06:19] <jono> but some apps have additional things rolled in, such as the help menu options that hook into launchpad
[06:19] <jono> we also customise apps and add specific support where it makes sense, such as using the GNOME VFS where it makes sense in Ubuntu
[06:20] <jono> with free software it often makes sense for upstream apps to build in the main features, and any specific integration additions are patched afterwards
[06:20] <jono> but we are certainly keen that upstream apps get those features that benefit all distros
 QUESTION: do you ever see some sort of "feature voting" taking place, allowing users and the like the ability to weigh in on specs when they are not able to attend the summits/confrences?
[06:21] <jono> sjoeboo, we have informal process of feature voting now, but it requires people to offer comments on features
[06:21] <jono> I doubt we will have polls about features as polls are inexact techniques of determining popularity
[06:21] <jono> polls are just literally a popularity contest that can be stuffed by people with too much time on their hands
[06:22] <jono> we are always keen that the wider community should offer thoughts and guidence on the direction of Ubuntu though, and we actively encourage people to take part in the spec writing process at the developer summits
[06:22] <jono> of course, you don't need to be at the summits physically to take part in this
[06:22] <jono> we are hoping to make this process easier as time goes on
 QUESTION: how important are LoCo teams to the ubuntu community?
[06:22] <jono> binary2k2, hugely
[06:23] <jono> binary2k2, LoCo teams are a key part of our community, and I am *really* keen to see them grow
[06:23] <freakcode> What about proprietary software? Will it come as bundle in edgy+1, or is the team working in some type of tool to install via apt-get, upon showing a disclaimer to the user? If not, I think this should be an ideia, because many users rely on proprietary software (drivers, codecs), so a tool like that (more simple than using synpatic) should be more human-like
[06:23] <jono> freakcode, not here post in -chat
[06:23] <freakcode> sorry
[06:23] <jono> np
[06:24] <jono> my first month of Canonical was largely spent on Loco teams and improving the structure we have there - improving the docs, better organising the site, building regular meetings, improving communication between teams etc
 QUESTION: how often do you talk to the different loCo teams... and why is the loCo team in my country in another irc server (unplug)
[06:25] <jono> effie_jayx, I try to talk to as many teams as I can, and I am always keen to get feedback from teams, by my time is fairly limited and spread across the entire Ubuntu community, so I don't get a chance to talk a lot to everyone
[06:26] <jono> effie_jayx, I also encourage that all teams have IRC channels on Freenode - and all LoCo enthusiasts should join #ubuntu-locoteams on Freenode
 QUESTION: Is there a meathod of advertising that we can use to gain maximum bang for our buck to spread Ubuntu?Maybe something similar to "spread firefox" What other meathods have worked for Ubuntu in the past?
[06:26] <jono> corstar, good question
[06:26] <effie_jayx> jono so I heard... but they insist on using unplug
[06:26] <jono> this depends on how you frame the problem
[06:26] <jono> effie_jayx, get them over here :)
[06:27] <jono> corstar, I think this is an advocacy mission
[06:27] <effie_jayx> jono will try...
[06:27] <jono> I used to be a professional Open Source advocate in my previous job, and I spent some time trying different methods of getting people over to free software
[06:27] <jono> again, it needs a multi-faceted approach - a single technique will not cut the mustard
[06:27] <in_flames_666> how can the ubuntu users get involved in the community? #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[06:28] <jono> advocacy generally needs a consistant, sustained approach - that is why spread firefox was so successful, they kept pushing and pushing
[06:28] <jono> but it also relies on having a solid understanding of your audience and what they need
[06:28] <tonyyarusso> in_flames_666: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat, then ask there.
[06:29] <jono> firefox had a relatively simple audience - web users
[06:29] <jono> I think a lesson we should *all* take from spread firefox is that freedom was *part* of the selling point - they also hammered home the feature and security benefits
[06:29] <jono> I personally think we need to stop the focus being 100% on freedom - the picture is MUCH bigger than just that
 QUESTION: There has been some discussion about a one-vote per approved member system for certain things though, still very much in the mildly pondering stage, has there not?
[06:30] <jono> tonyyarusso, there has been some discussion, although afaik nothing is decided on
[06:30] <tonyyarusso> right
[06:30] <jono> we do like the fact that approved ubuntu members have been through a vetting process that identifies them as good contributors - we need to factor that into the decision
 QUESTION: Is there a guide to getting our LoCo to start meetings or adgendas or even tasks?
[06:32] <jono> rasman, check out the main Loco pages at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams and see the HOWTO at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto - also see the knowledge base at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase and the FAQ at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ
[06:32] <jono> rasman, I also encourage you to ask for advice on the loco-contacts mailing list - the people on there are exceptionally cool
[06:33] <jono> rasman, the best advice I can give is to just go ahead and book an IRC meeting in a few weeks in your IRC channel and encourage people to get there - blog about it, mention it on the LoCo team's mailing list, mention it on the team's website etc
 QUESTION: What about proprietary software? Will it come as bundle in edgy+1, or is the team working in some type of tool to install via apt-get, upon showing a disclaimer to the user? If not, I think this should be an ideia, because many users rely on proprietary software (drivers, codecs), so a tool like that (more simple than using synpatic) should be more human-like.
[06:34] <jono> freakcode, nothing is cast in stone for Feisty (which is edgy+1), but are actively encouraging all application vendors to make their software available on Ubuntu
[06:34] <jono> freakcode, we are keen to provide a solid free software Operating System that users can run what they need to on it
[06:34] <PriceChild>  /msg jono https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation
 QUESTION: It must  feel great to be working for a company that has such high moral values, will Cannonical get much bigger or do you think they have reached a peak for now?ALso, what oppertunities will open in the future?
[06:35] <jono> corstar, I do love working here
[06:35] <jono> and I always wanted to work here
[06:35] <jono> in my previous job there was a cutoff date of March 2007 for the project to finish and I may have gone back to freelancing, but Canonical was always #1 on my list of companies to approach
[06:36] <jono> then the Ubuntu Community Manager position came up and I figured I would strike while the iron was hot :P
[06:36] <jono> Canonical is growing, there is no doubt about that
[06:36] <jono> we are company that is growing in engineering, community outreach, and critically, in our business operations
[06:36] <jono> my responsibility is that community will always be part of canonical's growth
[06:37] <jono> I am confident that the community and its central role in Ubuntu will always be a priority at Canonical
[06:37] <jono> since I have worked at Canonical, it amazed me just how much it is a central focus
[06:38] <jono> so yes, I think the moral standards will prevail
[06:38] <jono> but I always welcome feedback, as does Mark
 QUESTION: how can the ubuntu users get involved in the community?
[06:38] <jono> in_flames_666, awesome nick btw \m/
[06:39] <jono> in_flames_666, there lots of ways people can get in touch - and I recommend you figure out your own skills and interests and see which team they are best matched too - feel free to ping me if you are unsure
[06:39] <jono> in_flames_666, also see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
 QUESTION: Is there a feeling among the communtiy that Ubuntu needs a killer app or feature that will have people come running to it?
[06:40] <jono> brian_, I think it depends on the demographic
[06:40] <jono> I think we do need a unique factor to pull people to us - but that factor is typically "reliable, predictable software releases"
[06:41] <jono> I also think Ubuntu is there to identify the future direction of Linux and what we need to include - so our next release will have the bling, and we are keen to explore presence and multimedia benefits
[06:41] <jono> but like anything, this is a community project and we all need to play a part in what we do :)
 QUESTION: Is it important for an active community member to be on all relevant communication channels? What if you don't like IRC and/or mailing lists?
[06:43] <jono> samgee, I think a member needs to be on the communication channels relavent to them - I could understand for example that a marketing person may only be on the marketing mailing list and in #ubuntu-marketing
[06:43] <jono> its only some of us who are on virtually all lists
[06:43] <jono> its certainly not an expectation :)
 QUESTION: In some cases it's obvious that the new ubuntu members, which basicly came to contact with FLOSS thru Ubuntu doesn't understand the involvement within various other projects like Open Office or KDE suite, don't you think in some cases this can damage the FLOSS community itself?
[06:44] <jono> rejden, misunderstanding only damages a community if you don't work to fix the misunderstands
[06:44] <jono> misunderstandings
[06:44] <jono> I think there is some confusion about how the process works, and we could do with improving it
[06:45] <jono> if someone is interested in getting involved to help clarify in a document the relationship between a distribution and an upstream project, do let me know
 QUESTION: How non-english speakers LoCo teams can coordinate their activities? We don't have enough tools; For example, Planet Ubuntu is only for english speakers.
[06:45] <jono> mruiz, translations is a great place to help - y'know, the translations aspect of Ubuntu really, really rocks some people, so we need to improve this all the time
[06:46] <jono> mruiz, as for other services like planet, yes, we need to improve this - there is a spec for setting up per-LoCo planets to make this better
 QUESTION: After almost few years of involvement within the translation community many of us find out that translation made to rosetta (for example gnome) doesn't make it to the main application (GNOME in this case) and we lost many great translatorst because of that, is there any way that Ubuntu is thinkin about more support of these translation and their interaction to the main application?
[06:47] <jono> rejden, I don;t know about this - best to ask jordi
[06:47] <jono> rejden, bring that up in the next Rosetta session :)
 QUESTION: Again about Cannonical... Many people, especially from other projects and distros, doubts about the Cannonical business plan, like "How can they ship CDs worldwide, for *free*?". Its obvious that Mark done the first step, but can Cannonical really profit only with the comercial support and third-party costumers?
[06:48] <jono> freakcode, Canonical is a business, and Mark is a very good business man who has formed a good business team
[06:48] <jono> I am not going to comment on our business direction, not because of any Uber Secret Plan (TM) but because it is someone elses job to figure out how we become profitable
[06:49] <jono> it is important to stress though that Canonical is a well run ship with a careful budget - there is a misconception that Mark with his many-millions is happy to just pour it all in with no measurable outcome - we have a business direction and targets to meet
[06:50] <jono> and always remember that like free software, businesses evolve - I am sure the Canonical business offering will evolve as new markets become available for us
[06:50] <jono> any other questions?
[06:50] <jono> or any other clarification?
 QUESTION: Business support versus Customer support?  How do they differ and how do you pay for them?
[06:51] <jono> rasman, I don't quite understand the question
[06:51] <rasman> jono, sorry I wanted to get the question in before you left.
[06:52] <jono> rasman, what do you mean?
[06:52] <rasman> jono, Do customer's need to pay for support or can they pay for support?
[06:52] <jono> rasman, customers can indeed pay for support
 QUESTION: Would it be possible for ubuntu to do a similar thing to the "google summer of code:
[06:53] <jono> corstar, nothing planned right now, but who knows? and no, don't take that as the start of a rumour people... :P
[06:53] <gnomefreak> lol
 QUESTION: When are we going to see Ubuntu on Pocket PCs and/or Tablet PCs?
[06:53] <jono> brent_cool, no immediate plans, but I would *love* to see a community project form around this - all the pieces are out there, anyone want to pull them together?
 QUESTION: Where exactly do you draw the line between Debian and Ubuntu?
[06:54] <jono> debarshi, thats a big question
[06:54] <gnomefreak> jono: i was jsut reading something on that not too long ago abotu RHE was shipping on pocket pcs and or tablets
[06:54] <jono> at a technical level, the project uses Debian and works to merge it into Ubuntu and provide patches back up
[06:54] <jono> debarshi, at a social level we try to work with Debian as closely as possible - we are all Debian heads after all :P
 Question: Do you have a sense of how the explosive growth of the Ubuntu community affecting the Debian community?
[06:55] <jono> kudzubane, there are no clear metrics for measuring this, so it relies on licking your finger and putting it in the air
[06:56] <jono> I think the growth of Ubuntu will have mean't more being up to Debian, but on the flipside, there are no doubt people who have moved from Debian to Ubuntu
[06:56] <jono> we are keen though that we have a co-existant relationship with Debian and collaborate together where possible
[06:56] <jono> in the same way that Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu collaborate together on the core underlying system
 QUESTION:  Has Ubuntu thought about working with Universities to complete features?
[06:57] <jono> brian_, recently we hired Richard Weiderman to head up our Ubuntu team - RichEd on IRC - he is keen to help factor in education at so many levels - I recommend you ask him this question
 QUESTION: Last night Mark doged the "Google OS" question nicley, can you confirm, deny or ignore any rumors? hehe
[06:57] <jono> corstar, I am not aware of any Google OS
[06:58] <jono> I am aware they love Ubuntu though
[06:58] <jono> but a Google OS, its not something I have heard of
 question: Are you planning to somehow take into account more of the community input. The binary drivers thing is raging on mailing lists and forums. Is it not wise to actually listen to the end users, and not just the ones that make the most noise. Community voting or something. You can still ignore the result once you get them. But right now we read things like, "we will include proprietary code because people ask for it.
[06:59] <jono> finalbeta, we are always keen to get community input, and I am keen to hear your ideas on how we do that - re. the binary drivers issue this is a big issue in itself, I recommend you contribute your thoughts to the spec
[06:59] <jono> ok folks I am going to wrap up now
[06:59] <jono> thanks for the excellent questions
[06:59] <PriceChild> thanks jono :)
[06:59] <corstar> Thanks Jono
[07:00] <jono> as usual. get in touch with me if you need anything else :)
[07:00] <thiebaude> thanks again
[07:00] <brent_cool> Thanks Jono, love the podcast!
[07:00] <binary2k2> great session jono
[07:00] <ubuntu_rosso> thanks jono :)
[07:00] <corstar> when's the next Lugradio due out?
[07:00] <jjtec1> Thanks Jono
[07:00] <ubuntu_rosso> was very interesting
[07:00] <ka6wke> Thanks Jono!
[07:00] <jono> corstar, Monday
[07:00] <brent_cool> I wear Miguel's skin!
[07:00] <corstar> SWEET< you guys ROCK
[07:00] <timinphx1> thanks
[07:00] <freakcode> cya jono
[07:00] <gnomefreak> jono: was this week your doing?
[07:01] <jono> gnomefreak, I organised the sessions yep
[07:01] <brent_cool> VERY COOL jono
[07:01] <highvoltage> gnomefreak: of course it is, can't you see that smug smile on his face!?
[07:01] <brent_cool> let's have more of these!
[07:01] <gnomefreak> ping mark you nee da raise :)
[07:01] <jono> ok, sabdfl is up next
[07:01] <brent_cool> bye! thanks!
[07:01] <mruiz> ping jono
[07:01] <sabdfl> alrighty folks
[07:02] <sabdfl> well done jono, both on your session and on the week
[07:02] <thiebaude> hi Mark
[07:02] <jono> as usual, post questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat for sabdfl to answer - this is about the opensuse invitation
[07:02] <jono> thanks sabdfl
[07:02] <sabdfl> we called this particular session to discuss my invitation to the opensuse folks to join us in the open week
[07:02] <sabdfl> if you want to post questions in -chat, I or jono will pull those into this channel one at a time
[07:03] <sabdfl> fire away
[07:04] <tonyyarusso> @clear
[07:04] <sabdfl> so far so good :-)
 QUESTION: what exactly were your initial intentions when you did that invite?
[07:04] <corstar> can we ask space questions?
[07:04] <sabdfl> (18:04:05) Circus-Killer: QUESTION: what exactly were your initial intentions when you did that invite?
[07:04] <sabdfl> Circus-Killer: simply to make sure opensuse folks know about this Ubuntu Open Week
[07:05] <sabdfl> (18:04:29) mattl: QUESTION: If you could do the invite again, what would you change?
[07:05] <sabdfl> (18:04:30) cronholio: QUESTION: had you known the reactions beforehand, would you still have posted that invitation to your blog and/or the list?
[07:05] <sabdfl> mattl, cronholio: i think i was blunt in the preamble to the invitation
[07:05] <sabdfl> it would have been better to focus on the opportunities to collaborate between the distros, which are also interesting
[07:06] <sabdfl> hopefully some opensuse folks are here, and those opportunities will get explored
[07:06] <sabdfl> i AM very concerned about the novell deal
[07:06] <sabdfl> and i know that many very senior open source developers feel the same way
[07:07] <sabdfl> at least, those who understand how devastating a firm patent claim by microsoft would be
[07:07] <sabdfl> i feel the novell folks who did the deal either did not realise what a potential trap they were walking into, or just ignored it in favour of the cash
[07:07] <sabdfl> either way, its alarming
[07:08] <sabdfl> (18:06:14) brent_cool: QUESTION: Would Canonical ever consider any kind of deal with Microsoft, after careful consideration of the impact?  Or is *any* deal with Microsoft always completely out of the question due to Microsoft's past?
[07:08] <sabdfl> brent_cool: we actually have an open line of communication with different folks at microsoft
[07:08] <brent_cool> interesting
[07:08] <sabdfl> i exchanged mail with someone today who contacted me based on the comments i've made recently
[07:09] <sabdfl> i'm not opposed to microsoft on principle - they've done a lot of good in the world
[07:09] <sabdfl> it would be trite to take such a black-and-white view
[07:09] <sabdfl> however
[07:09] <sabdfl> they play a very hard game, and right now i think we are seeing the beginnings of a push back against linux
[07:10] <sabdfl> part of that push back is competition - office 12 is going to be very cool
[07:10] <sabdfl> good for them
[07:10] <sabdfl> they are stepping up
[07:10] <sabdfl> part of it is community - i think they have been studying community, and working out how they can get some of that vibe into their own scene
[07:10] <sabdfl> hence the blogging, hence the open bug trackers, hence codeplex, hence their shared source licence
[07:10] <sabdfl> all of that is cool
[07:10] <sabdfl> and i would work with them on that sort of thing
[07:11] <sabdfl> however, there's clearly a part of microsoft that just wants to be able to stop linux in its tracks, and right now I think patents are at the top of their list for that
[07:11] <sabdfl> so we have to be very, very careful
[07:11] <sabdfl> listening to Nat Friedman the other day, he said that Novell initiated the deal, and Microsoft then "just slipped in this patent idea"
[07:11] <sabdfl> well, that was naive
[07:12] <sabdfl> it's abundantly clear that this is a significant thrust back from microsoft
[07:12] <sabdfl> if it succeeds, it will mean that linux can never be made freely available
[07:12] <sabdfl> debian, fedora, ubuntu, gentoo would all effectively be illegal in places where microsoft files patents
[07:12] <sabdfl> they file a lot of patents in south africa, for example
[07:12] <popey> alan@wopr:~$ lspci | grep -i nvidia | wc -l
[07:12] <popey> 33
[07:13] <popey> eek, sorry
[07:13] <sabdfl> popey: yer welcome
[07:13] <sabdfl> so, to sum up
[07:13] <sabdfl> i would work with microsoft on some things, compete on others
[07:13] <sabdfl> on the patent issue, i think we need a furious defense
[07:14] <brent_cool> IBM :)
[07:14] <sabdfl> (18:05:42) freakcode: QUESTION: How do you see it affecting Ubuntu. I mean, like Novell suporting and developing apps for GNOME, that Ubuntu makes use (F-Spot as example). If I'm not wrong, it uses Mono. Is there any "fears" about those components, being taken off in the next release, in order to avoid future problems with Novell?
[07:14] <sabdfl> freakcode: at this stage we have no plans to change package selection based on these events
[07:14] <sabdfl> i don't believe that microsoft actually plans lawsuits in the short term
[07:14] <noela> hi
[07:14] <sabdfl> however, we need to make it clear that option is not open to them, so they focus on pure competition
[07:15] <Nat_> Hi
[07:15] <Nat_> I felt this tingling sensation on my neck
[07:15] <LjL> !questions
[07:15] <ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[07:15] <sabdfl> (18:06:09) highvoltage: QUESTION: Mark, have you read http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1281 , and do you think that it is appropriate that my local company go in and advise them about Ubuntu?
[07:15] <sabdfl> highvoltage: yes, i think a commercial response will send a strong message
[07:15] <sabdfl> as would developers leaving to work elsewhere
[07:16] <sabdfl> (18:06:28) corstar: QUESTION: have you noticed, Novel has stopped development support for HULA? Do you think this is a trend that will sadly continue after "The Deal"?
[07:16] <sabdfl> i don't think the HULA decision was related to the deal
[07:16] <sabdfl> too much conspiracy there :-)
[07:16] <corstar> haha
[07:16] <sabdfl> (18:06:57) daxelrod: QUESTION: What is the Ubuntu agreement with Mozilla? Does it propagate to Ubuntu derivatives?
[07:16] <sabdfl> simply that we maintain an open line of communication, and they are happy for us to use the firefox brand at the moment
[07:17] <manthusergoth> Hello
[07:17] <sabdfl> in future, of course, we might go in different directions, but both fo us are committed to working out whatever issues arise
[07:17] <mattl> manthusergoth: go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[07:17] <sabdfl> w.r.t. derivatives, ubuntu would be a natural conduit for the necessary discussions
[07:17] <sabdfl> derivatives are free either to work within that, or fork
[07:18] <sabdfl> (18:07:05) mattl: QUESTION: Have you had any contact with any execs at Novell since they made the announcement, or since your post?
[07:18] <sabdfl> no formal contact, only conversations with angry developers
[07:18] <dudanogueira> hehehee
[07:18] <mattl> heh. do you intend to make any contact?
[07:18] <sabdfl> (18:07:35) rejden: QUESTION: regarding novell and microsft deal about patent issues which now are mostly applyable only in us the opensuse community suffered some kind of stress about that deal. Will ubuntu/canonical prefer to have similiar agreements with the IPR holders, or even cross-patenting with competition or you will prefer to stay on the other side (lets say the real 4 freedoms as defined by the GPL)?
[07:19] <sabdfl> its clear we need to take a more active stance on patents
[07:19] <sabdfl> we'll review the situation and make announcements in that regard when we're ready
[07:19] <sabdfl> for now, its clear our public position is one of strong opposition either to the existence of software patents
[07:19] <sabdfl> or to their use to block access to markets by free software developers
[07:20] <sabdfl> in particular, i'm concerned about the chilling effect of patent threats on the willingness of developers to contribute to free software
[07:20] <sabdfl> (18:07:57) LoudMouthMan: QUESTION : Mark unlike other distros your far more visible as a figure head (in my opinion )  and therefore you  are a target for criticism  when you post any comments. How do you feel about that ?
[07:20] <sabdfl> Sometimes I wish my feet tasted better
[07:21] <finalbeta> gross
[07:21] <sabdfl> It's particularly difficult in cases where I have very strong personal opinions
[07:21] <sabdfl> the good thing is that this is an open community, so members express their own opinions just as loudly
[07:22] <sabdfl> we have had several ubuntu folks publicly take a different position to me, and i like that
[07:22] <sabdfl> (18:08:47) fliegenderfrosch: QUESTION: Were you surprised by the largely negative reactions?
[07:22] <sabdfl> I knew it would be controversial, I said as much in the mail
[07:23] <sabdfl> (18:09:09) kalon33: QUESTION: What do you think is great in Suse that we haven't in Ubuntu ?
[07:23] <sabdfl> I think they have some excellent configuraiton management in YaST that I would like to see in Ubuntu
[07:23] <sabdfl> PPPOE, apparently
[07:23] <sabdfl> also, server side config
[07:23] <sabdfl> contributions welcome :-)
[07:24] <sabdfl> for the rest, i haven't ever used it so can't comment
[07:24] <sabdfl> (18:11:34) rejden: QUESTION: adding to my previous one, did Canonical made any patents/trademark/copyright  (IPR) except the legal trademarks of the names and logos? In EPO (European Patent Office) or in United States. Is Canonical considering applying to make patents in the future? What kind of patents that will be?
[07:25] <sabdfl> no, we have never filed for patents, though we often say "gee, this would be a great patent" when we are working on new code
[07:25] <sabdfl> there's a lot in bazaar, from example, that would have been patentable before we released it as GPL
[07:25] <sabdfl> same in LP and of course int he core distro
[07:25] <sabdfl> our livecd approach, ltsp work etc
[07:25] <sabdfl> but we have never filed for patents
[07:26] <sabdfl> (18:13:59) KHatfull: QUESTION: If Microsoft does pursue IP suits against Linux how would the Linux community be able to defend itself?  Would there be enough evidence to support the notion that there's no Microsoft IP currently being distributed?
[07:26] <sabdfl> It's quite possible that there is code in Linux which does infringe a Microsoft patent
[07:26] <sabdfl> In general, the response could be threefold
[07:27] <sabdfl>  (1) show that Microsoft in turn violates a patent, or more, which is held by a Linux-supporting company, thereby acting as a deterrent
[07:27] <sabdfl>  (2) Rework the code to avoid the specific terms of the patent
[07:27] <sabdfl>  (3) Agree to pay patent fees
[07:27] <sabdfl> Number (3) has issues with some free software licences
[07:28] <sabdfl> We avoid shipping some GPL software, for example, because of patents
[07:28] <sabdfl> (18:19:07) popey: QUESTION: Do you feel this deal taints the developers who work for Novell on FLOSS products such as SAMBA?
[07:28] <sabdfl> No
[07:28] <sabdfl> I think the developers were entirely out of the loop on this one
[07:28] <sabdfl> There may have been some senior guys who heard about it before the announcement
[07:28] <sabdfl> but I don't think this was a deliberate step from the developer side
[07:30] <sabdfl> (18:26:06) KHatfull: QUESTION: If Microsoft decides to pursue IP suits and Ubuntu, as a very high profile distro, becomes a target, how vigorous a defense will you/Canonical be able to mount?
[07:30] <sabdfl> We are particularly vulnerable to this
[07:30] <sabdfl> We have no patents with which to mount a deterrent
[07:30] <sabdfl> Nor do we have deep pockets for a protracted lawsuit
[07:30] <sabdfl> That's just how it is
[07:30] <sabdfl> So you can see why I'm very concerned
[07:31] <sabdfl> The same is true of all the distros which aim to be freely available
[07:31] <sabdfl> I'm interested to know how the Microsoft deal relates to OpenSUSE
[07:31] <riot_> hi @all
[07:31] <sabdfl> It's easy to see how a paid product, like SLED, could include the fee to pay Microsoft ("to not sue you")
[07:32] <sabdfl> but with a free, community product, it's not possible to collect the fee
[07:32] <sabdfl> (18:26:38) corstar: QUESTION: so, would you guys "ever" patent anything(to protect Open source). Or does that go against the FOSS?
[07:32] <tonyyarusso> riot_: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[07:32] <sabdfl> if we did file patents, we would licence them to GPL implementations, freely
[07:32] <riot_> ok thanks
[07:33] <sabdfl> (18:28:26) Nat_: QUESTION: Novell, Red Hat, IBM and others put a lot of resources into funding the Open Invention Network and providing it with patents to use to protect Linux in case someone decides to sue a Linux user or distributor for patent infringement.   Will Canonical participate in OIN?
[07:33] <sabdfl> Hi Nat_ :-)
[07:33] <sabdfl> We've asked IBM for further details on OIN
[07:33] <sabdfl> We have no patents to contribute, and do not have deep pockets
[07:33] <sabdfl> but it may be that our participation is useful from other perspectives
[07:34] <sabdfl> if so then they may be willing to let us in on terms that would work for us
[07:34] <sabdfl> and then yes, that would be something we could do
[07:34] <sabdfl> (18:29:13) tuxub: Question: Mark, do you think that european community has enough strong will to stand up against microsoft patent politics and, maybe in a few years time, make a turn to openly embrace and promote open source usage by european companies?
[07:34] <sabdfl> So far so good
[07:34] <sabdfl> I think this will require eternal vigilance, though
[07:34] <tuxub> :)
[07:35] <sabdfl> since the pressure from IP holders to expand the scope of their property is very high
[07:35] <sabdfl> and there is not a strong voice for the commons
[07:35] <sabdfl> however
[07:35] <sabdfl> the free software movement, and now also the creative commons movement, have gained significant mindshare
[07:35] <sabdfl> hopefully, that continues to build
[07:36] <sabdfl> (18:29:27) andresmujica: QUESTION:  Do you expect that ubuntu evolves as a mainly desktop distro or are you planning to put more effort at server side?   Is any chance that SUSE's expertise on KDE would help the kubuntu's development?
[07:36] <sabdfl> andresmujica: we are currently hiring both desktop and server developers
[07:36] <sabdfl> (18:29:57) amachu: QUESTION: Education sector the real arena where Ubuntu can prove decisive.. Mark, how do compare with Microsoft's educational suites with Edubuntu?
[07:36] <sabdfl> I think the best thing that free software does in education is DIVERSITY
[07:36] <sabdfl> we don't (yet) have the best word processor
[07:37] <sabdfl> though we have at least three *pretty good* ones
[07:37] <sabdfl> what we do have is a huge spectrum of tools
[07:37] <sabdfl> for all sorts of disciplines
[07:37] <sabdfl> music, art, maths, physics, statistics, programming, design
[07:37] <sabdfl> you name it
[07:37] <sabdfl> and those tools are free of charge
[07:37] <sabdfl> and OPEN
[07:37] <sabdfl> you can see how the tools work
[07:37] <sabdfl> and you can shape them
[07:37] <sabdfl> that's a treasure chest for education
[07:38] <sabdfl> especially in places where the kids are often smarter than the teachers
[07:38] <sabdfl> so, we should focus on that
[07:38] <sabdfl> (18:30:29) oblio: QUESTION: what do you think about mono entering gnome base? after all, it's surely cause for concern at M$\
[07:38] <sabdfl> The mono guys have done awesome work
[07:38] <sabdfl> it would be very sad to have that come under a cloud now
[07:39] <sabdfl> at this stage, we have no plans to drop mono because of these concerns
[07:39] <sabdfl> Novell has said that they believe there are no patent issues
[07:39] <sabdfl> and we believe that is in good faith
[07:40] <sabdfl> (18:34:37) jjtec1: QUESTION: What can we as community do to influence this bad deal?
[07:40] <sabdfl> jjtec1: first, i thnk the terms of the deal are not yet set in stone
[07:40] <sabdfl> i suspect there is a lot of activity internally at novell
[07:40] <sabdfl> with developers trying to help set things right
[07:41] <sabdfl> add your voice to theirs
[07:41] <sabdfl> speak with opensuse folks and see if you can help them make the case for novell management to take a stronger line
[07:41] <sabdfl> also, watch gpl v3
[07:41] <Amaranth> *shudder*
[07:41] <sabdfl> i hope that this deal does not upset the balance of the v3 discussion
[07:41] <sabdfl> we need v3 to be a balanced licence, not unduly influenced by the issue du jour
[07:42] <sabdfl> but this has certianly thrown the patent question into stark relief
[07:42] <sabdfl> (18:35:02) MisterN: QUESTION: is Canonical / Ubuntu actively lobbying against software patents? (i already asked but with wrong case)
[07:42] <sabdfl> we have not done enough
[07:42] <sabdfl> individually, canonical folks have always spoken against software patents
[07:42] <nic__> =] ] 
[07:42] <sabdfl> but we are not part of a formal lobby group, for example
[07:43] <sabdfl> (18:39:47) _MMA_: QUESTION: With IBM's seemingly great support for linux do you think they would do well to jump back into the desktop market? Ubuntu-powered IBM desktop anyone? ;)
[07:43] <sabdfl> No, I think IBM is not yet really engaged in the desktop market
[07:43] <sabdfl> for them, the focus remains servers
[07:44] <sabdfl> they sold their desktop PC business (and were very happy to get rid of it)
[07:44] <sabdfl> that said
[07:44] <sabdfl> they do have a big global business managing office PC's for other companies
[07:44] <ka6wke> +w
[07:44] <sabdfl> that's where I would expect them to climb in
[07:44] <sabdfl> (18:40:27) sjoeboo: QUESTION: mark, You recently blogged a bit about the pros and cons of non-free drivers and codecs, and reasons to include some and not the others. Has a "final" decision been made about non-free drivers from here on out?
[07:45] <sabdfl> this is tangential to the opensuse discussion, but it's controversial and topical so...
[07:45] <sabdfl> no
[07:45] <sabdfl> no final decision has been made
[07:45] <sabdfl> the discussion is ongoing on ubuntu-devel, forums, blogs, email
[07:45] <sabdfl> i've expressed an opinion, as have other members of the tech board
[07:45] <sabdfl> i think the final position will be a nuanced, careful, clear one
[07:46] <sjoeboo> thank you
[07:46] <sabdfl> that maintains our commitment to making your hardware work, while still promoting only free software applications
[07:46] <sabdfl> we are unlikely to become gNewSense
[07:46] <sabdfl> nor are we suddenly going to become Mint Linux
[07:46] <sabdfl> our place is in the middle
[07:46] <ompaul> :)
[07:47] <sabdfl> ok
[07:47] <sabdfl> i tihnk that's all the opensuse related questions in -chat
[07:48] <sabdfl> Nat_ from opensuse is here, i'd like to invite him to speak a bit if he wants the floor
[07:48] <sabdfl> "you're in a maze of twisty tunnels, all looking the same"
[07:48] <sabdfl> "Nat_ is here"
[07:48] <Panzerboy_> lol
[07:48] <Nat_> You were killed by a grue :-)
[07:48] <tuxub> :p
[07:48] <Nat_> Thanks for the invitation to say something, I appreciate that, but I was just hear to lurk and listen :-)
[07:48] <sabdfl> story of my life :-)
[07:49] <Nat_> I do think a lot of people misunderstand and blow out of proportion the Novell/MS deal
[07:49] <Amaranth> Nat_: Tell a joke?
[07:49] <Nat_> I can understand why people would be concerned about a partnership with Microsoft, but I guess I'd ask people to look at the situtaion and try to see if there's really a real harm being done.
[07:50] <Nat_> And if people have questions I'm glad to field those :-)
[07:50] <Nat_> Here or elsewhere
[07:50] <Nat_> I'm also on another phone call right now so I'm not really as articulate as, like, I'd want to be
[07:50] <Nat_> ;-)
[07:50] <sabdfl> ok, questions for Nat_ in -chat, i'll post here
[07:50] <Nat_> Thanks :-)
[07:51] <oblio> Nat_: for microsoft, no harm :))
[07:52] <sabdfl> (18:52:13) jku_: QUESTION: Nat_, so you disagree with sabdfl about the meaning/importance of the patent-part of the deal? Do you see no ill effects for the free software community?
[07:52] <eboogie> Nat_ : can you clarify the comments steve balmer made about the future infringements?
[07:52] <Nat_> Personally I think we got MS to acknowledge that Linux is real, that it matters; we got a lot of money from them that we can use to continue to subsidize writing free software -- software that shows up in Ubuntu, for example; we didn't violate the GPL and I don't think there's any real harm to any other parties.
[07:52] <apokryphos> !questions
[07:52] <ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[07:53] <eboogie> you're right...my bad.
[07:53] <sabdfl> (18:52:16) KHatfull: QUESTION: (for Nat_) Can you give us the short 3-5 sentence statement on what the Novell/MS deal means to someone iside openSUSE?
[07:53] <Nat_> Microsoft has been making threatening noises about Linux and their patents for years and years, that's nothing new
[07:53] <Nat_> I think it menas basically nothing for someone inside opensuse, except I hope it means that we get to hire more people to contribute to opensuse.
[07:54] <Nat_> One of the things we asked Microsoft to put in the deal, and which they tried to put in, is a promise never to sue a person for their association with free software
[07:54] <sabdfl> (18:53:03) LoudMouthMan: QUESTION: NAT_ can you introduce your self and clarify your relationship with OPensuse and Suse/Novell ?
[07:54] <sabdfl> drumroll...
[07:54] <Nat_> They didn't do a great job of that, but they're going to redraft it and we hope to see something improved at some point soon :-)
[07:54] <Nat_> Oh, I'm Nat Friedman, I cofounded a company called Ximian in 1999; in 2003 we sold it to Novell; now I'm CTO of the Linux group at Novell.  I live in Germany.
[07:54] <sabdfl> (18:53:27) Bourlotieris: QUESTION: "No real harm done" - do you believe that Balmer would make the UNACCEPTABLE announcement he did a few days ago if there was no deal with Novell?
[07:54] <Nat_> Well, first I agree that Ballmer's statements were totally unacceptable
[07:55] <Nat_> and our CEO published an open letter in which he said the same thing
[07:55] <sabdfl> (18:53:38) apokryphos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Friedman
[07:55] <Nat_> But, it doesn't take a lot of google searching to determine that he's been saying approximately those same things for years and years, independent of any dealings with Novell
[07:55] <Nat_> So, yes, I think he would have been saying that stuff anyway.
[07:56] <Bourlotieris> Only now Novell is relished from that
[07:56] <Nat_> Novell is not released
[07:56] <Nat_> Microsoft could sue Novell at any time, that's not prohibited in the contract
[07:56] <Nat_> We would be protected by our own patent portfolio (which we could use to sue Microsoft back) and by OIN, which we helped create.
[07:56] <Nat_> If you don't know OIN -- check out www.openinventionnetwork.com.  it's a company that pools patents and uses them to protect Linux
[07:57] <Nat_> so if someone sues Canonical, or Red Hat, or Debian, over a Linux-related patent infringement, OIN will sue them back
[07:57] <Nat_> Novell helped OIN get all of the patents they have today.
[07:57] <sabdfl> Best news I've had all day :-)
[07:57] <sabdfl> Ok, thanks very much Nat_
[07:57] <Nat_> Novell didn't actually need that protection itself (becuase we already had ~400 patents)... but we did it anyway
[07:57] <Nat_> yep
[07:57] <Nat_> thanks for the chance :-)
[07:57] <sabdfl> yer welcome
[07:58] <sabdfl> in closing
[07:58] <sabdfl> i do want to apologise to anyone offended by my direct invitation to opensuse devs
[07:58] <zorglu_> is it suitable to ask question about ms/novell deal now ?
[07:58] <sabdfl> i don't in any way believe that opensuse devs had any malicious intent in the novell deal
[07:58] <Amaranth> zorglu_: we're wrapping up, about to run into someone else's time
[07:59] <sabdfl> and i do believe that the devs are likely helping, behind the scenes, to straighten things out
[07:59] <sabdfl> thanks to Nat_ for shedding some light on that process
[07:59] <PriceChild> thanks sabdfl, Nat_
[07:59] <sabdfl> and thanks to everyone for questions and for joining in
[07:59] <sjoeboo> yes, thanks sabdfl and Nat_
[07:59] <zorglu_> Amaranth: too bad :)
[07:59] <corstar> sabdfl for PM
[07:59] <sabdfl> jono: who's up next?
[07:59] <Amaranth> jordi:
[07:59] <PriceChild> Translations with Rosetta - Jordi Mallach
[07:59] <jordi> Hey
[08:00] <jordi> wow, it's time already
[08:00] <sabdfl> hey jordi
[08:00] <sabdfl> floor is yours
[08:00] <jordi> good!
[08:00] <silwol>  /msg nickserv info nat_
[08:00] <jordi> okay, let's do it!
[08:00] <apokryphos> silwol: busted :P
[08:00] <silwol> hihi
[08:00] <jordi> Welcome to the second Ubuntu Open Week session devoted to
[08:00] <jordi> Rosetta. I'm Jordi Mallach, and have been working with Carlos and
[08:00] <jordi> Danilo in Launchpad's Rosetta team for a while, trying to be the
[08:00] <jordi> bridge between the developers and our users and translators.
[08:01] <eboogie> great info Nat_!
[08:01] <jordi> I'll be taking questions in #-chat, but it's wise to wait until the end of my dump, as some questions might be addressed in this introduction
[08:01] <jmbuser> sabdfl, Nat_:Thanks for the excellent discussion
[08:01] <noela> bona tarda, jordi :)
[08:01] <jordi> Rosetta is one of the components that make up Launchpad,
[08:01] <jordi> Canonical's service platform.
[08:01] <jordi> Launchpad is made up of five major components: a bug tracker, a
[08:01] <jordi> request tracker, a specification tracker, a "source code"
[08:01] <jordi> supermirror and Rosetta, a web-based translation portal.
[08:01] <Amaranth> eboogie, jmbuser: New session, please thank them elsewhere. :)
[08:01] <tonyyarusso> @clear
[08:02] <Neonightmare> join chat
[08:02] <jordi> Christian Reis will talk tomorrow about Launchpad in general, so
[08:02] <jordi> let's focus on Rosetta. You can also read the logs of yesterday's
[08:02] <jordi> Launchpad session also led by kiko.
[08:02] <jordi> Rosetta's aim is to make translation of Free Software as easy and
[08:02] <jordi> non-technical as it can get. The Rosetta team has been working on
[08:02] <jordi> creating an interface which hides the specifics of the Gettext PO
[08:02] <jordi> file format, which is the standard for translating Free Software,
[08:02] <jordi> thus lowering the barrier so anyone with a reasonable knowledge
[08:02] <eboogie> thank you!
[08:02] <jordi> of English can help out with the translations of their favourite
[08:02] <jordi> project into their mother tongue.
[08:03] <tonyyarusso> Neonightmare: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[08:03] <jordi> Rosetta is the main translation system of Ubuntu Linux, and is
[08:03] <jordi> the source of all translations which appear in the Ubuntu
[08:03] <jordi> releases, and in the frequently updated langpacks. Rosetta is
[08:03] <jordi> also designed to help program authors getting their applications
[08:03] <jordi> translated.
[08:03] <jmbuser> sorry
[08:03] <jordi> A close look on the Gettext PO file format
[08:03] <jordi> Most of the software in your desktops use a standard translation
[08:03] <jordi> interface called GNU gettext, which is in charge of showing the
[08:03] <jordi> applications in the language the user has chosen. Application
[08:03] <jordi> programmers need to take care of marking all the user-visible
[08:03] <jordi> messages (or strings, as the initiated tend to call them) with a
[08:03] <jordi> special marker which can be extracted to plain text ".po" files.
[08:03] <jordi> We translators use these files to translate the applications.
[08:03] <jordi> Let's look at how a PO file looks. I've put some examples in
[08:03] <jordi> http://pusa.informat.uv.es/~jordi/ubuntu-school/
[08:04] <jordi> Have a look at the ubuntu-school.pot file. A POT file is a "PO
[08:04] <jordi> Template", that is, an empty PO file ready to be translated.
[08:04] <jordi> Looking at the contents of the file, you can see the format is
[08:04] <jordi> pretty straight forward: each original string in English (a
[08:04] <jordi> msgid) has its corresponding translation (msgstr). While simple,
[08:04] <jordi> the po format is quite fragile. One missing quote, and your
[08:04] <jordi> entire application build will fail with a syntax error. There are
[08:04] <jordi> several very popular PO file editors which help the editing
[08:04] <jordi> process: KBabel, PoEdit, GTranslator, Emacs PO-mode...
[08:04] <jordi> Rosetta goes one step further in easing the translation of these
[08:04] <jordi> PO files, using a clean, web-based interface which hides the
[08:04] <jordi> format, presenting only sets of string/translation pairs that you
[08:04] <jordi> can fill up. Once the work is done, it's stored in its database
[08:04] <jordi> where the information can be exported or shared among other
[08:04] <jordi> projects.
[08:05] <jordi> Rosetta is, as hinted before, divided in two main branches: one
[08:05] <jordi> serves to translate the applications of the people who request
[08:05] <jordi> it. For example, the Gobby collaborative editor is being
[08:05] <jordi> translated by Rosetta contributors, after its authors requested
[08:05] <jordi> us to set it up for them in Rosetta. On the other hand, Rosetta
[08:05] <jordi> is the platform from where Ubuntu gets all its translations.
[08:05] <jordi> We'll focus on Ubuntu a bit more now.
[08:05] <jordi> Ubuntu translations revolve around the Ubuntu translation teams,
[08:05] <jordi> which coordinate and produce the translations which get shipped
[08:05] <jordi> with every new version.
[08:06] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/rosetta/groups/ubuntu-translators
[08:06] <jordi> woot, I just deleted part of my file :P
[08:06] <jordi> 20:03 < tuxub> QUESTION: Jordi, how can anyone became a translator and work "for the cause"?
[08:07] <jordi> tuxub: the correct way is to request to join the relevant team in the list above, if it exists for your language
[08:07] <tuxub> portuguese
[08:07] <jordi> ie, if you want to translate German, join the ubuntu-l10n-de group in Launchpad, *and* fild out how your group operates
[08:08] <jordi> ok, join pt then :)
[08:08] <tuxub> :)
[08:08] <jordi> by how it operates I mean get on the mailing list, work with other team members, etc.
[08:08] <dudanogueira> tuxub, for brazilian portuguese translators, you can join on #ubuntu-br-tradutores :)
[08:08] <jordi> the team leader will approve you or not depending on the team's policies
[08:09] <jordi> Here you'll see a list of teams which belong to the Ubuntu
[08:09] <jordi> translation teams. While Rosetta is open enough to let everyone
[08:09] <jordi> with a Launchpad account contribute, there is need for some
[08:09] <jordi> access control, to protect quality, avoid vandalism, etc. Being
[08:09] <tuxub> hum -> portuguese from portugal :)
[08:09] <tuxub> ;)
[08:09] <jordi> part of one of the translation teams grants you "write" access to
[08:09] <jordi> every translation for that language in Ubuntu. Still, if you're
[08:09] <jordi> not a member of your language's team, you can still go ahead and
[08:09] <jordi> translate. Your contributions will be also stored in Rosetta's
[08:09] <dudanogueira> tuxub, ok... anyway :)
[08:09] <jordi> database as "suggestions", but won't appear in Ubuntu's language
[08:09] <jordi> packs until a member of the team reviews and validates them.
[08:09] <jordi> Rosetta offers a long list of applications that can be
[08:09] <jordi> translated. Taking the French team as an example,
[08:09] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+lang/fr
[08:09] <jordi> we can have a look at how their translation status is for the
[08:09] <jordi> Ubuntu Edgy release. I like showing the French team because they
[08:09] <jordi> are really an amazing example of completeness.
[08:10] <jordi> Rosetta presents us a list of applications which are ready to be
[08:10] <jordi> translated to French, and their current translation status. As
[08:10] <jordi> you see, the French have done their homework and there's barely
[08:10] <jordi> no red bars, meaning "untranslated". See the bottom of the
[08:10] <jordi> page for the meaning of the bar colours.
[08:10] <jordi> Let's see how we'd translate an application. Close to the top of
[08:10] <jordi> the list is "launchpad-integration". We'll pick this one as it's
[08:10] <jordi> easy and short.
[08:11] <jordi>    https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/launchpad-integration/+pots/launchpad-integration/fr/+translate
[08:11] <jordi> If instead of French you want to have a look at your own
[08:11] <jordi> language's translation, simply replace "/fr" in the URL with the
[08:11] <jordi> corresponding ISO 639 code. You can find the code for your
[08:11] <jordi> language here:
[08:11] <jordi>    http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
[08:11] <jordi> Rosetta will present us with a few interesting bits in the main
[08:11] <jordi> body of the page. The most important one is the original string
[08:11] <jordi> and the translation field where you'll store your translation.
[08:12] <jordi> (oh, please tell me if I'm going too fast, I'm trying to speed up things so there's more time for q+a than on Monday)
[08:12] <jordi> In our case, the first string is "The Launchpad helper
[08:12] <jordi> application failed", which is already translated to French as
[08:12] <jordi> "L'assistant Launchpad a chou". Below the accepted translation
[08:12] <jordi> there is a list of alternative translations suggested by other
[08:12] <jordi> people. You can quickly navigate through the translation fields
[08:12] <jordi> using the tab key. Once you have completed all the strings in a
[08:12] <jordi> page, you want to save your work: hit "Save & Continue" at the
[08:12] <jordi> bottom, and if there are more strings to do, Rosetta will then
[08:12] <jordi> show them to you.
[08:13] <jordi> There are other bits that can help the translators while they
[08:13] <jordi> work on a translation: you might want to see what the translators
[08:13] <jordi> to a language similar to yours used in a string that is hard to
[08:13] <jordi> translate, for inspiration. You can get such information using
[08:13] <jordi> the "Make suggestions from" widget at the top of the string list.
[08:13] <jordi> Also, you'll be more interested in seeing the strings that need
[08:13] <jordi> work instead of those which are translated already. You can
[08:13] <jordi> filter the kind of messages you want to see using the "Show"
[08:13] <jordi> widget, where you can select from "all", "unstranslated",
[08:13] <jordi> "translated" and "needs review".
[08:14] <jordi> While the web interface has allowed many Ubuntu users help out
[08:14] <jordi> with the translations to their language, there's certainly
[08:14] <jordi> die-hard, old-time translators who will prefer using their own
[08:14] <jordi> tools (obscure emacs modules and weird command line tools!) to
[08:14] <jordi> work on their translations. Or there might be people who cannot
[08:14] <jordi> afford to be online during the whole translating session.
[08:14] <jordi> To help them, Rosetta has an import/export mechanism, which
[08:14] <jordi> allows you to easily upload translations you have worked on
[08:14] <jordi> offline, using your own ways, but you still want to see
[08:14] <jordi> integrated in Rosetta, and download your finalised files so you
[08:14] <jordi> can do whatever you want with them: back them up, send them to
[08:15] <jordi> your team's mailing list, send them to the upstream author so
[08:15] <jordi> they get included in the next release...
[08:15] <jordi> Importing and exporting is easy: to download your work, use the
[08:15] <jordi> "Download" and "Upload file" links in the left-side box when
[08:15] <jordi> viewing a translation template.
[08:15] <jordi> When requesting a download, Launchpad will prepare the file for
[08:15] <jordi> you and will email you the location of the desired export.
[08:15] <jordi> Importing is similar. Just fill in the field with the location
[08:15] <jordi> path to your file, and rosetta will integrate it in the database
[08:15] <jordi> -- note the file upload mechanism is disable right now due to
[08:15] <jordi> technical reasons, we expect to be able to resume normal
[08:15] <jordi> operations very soon.
[08:16] <jordi> Okay, so you've worked on the files you were interested in, and
[08:16] <jordi> Rosetta now has all the info. What happens now?
[08:16] <jordi> Ubuntu will, on a monthly basis, extract all the translations
[08:16] <jordi> from the database and put them in the "language packs" for each
[08:16] <jordi> supported language in the distro, which will automatically hit
[08:17] <jordi> your Ubuntu mirror the 1st Monday of the month. This way, Rosetta
[08:17] <jordi> allows people to keep improving the support for their language
[08:17] <jordi> even after a Ubuntu release has shipped. For example, more than 6
[08:17] <jordi> months after the release of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS, there's a group
[08:17] <jordi> working on adding Dzonghka support to Ubuntu, when there was
[08:17] <jordi> close to nothing included in dapper initially.
[08:18] <jordi> The Rosetta team get asked a few frequent questions regularly. I'll try to
[08:18] <jordi> address a few of them before moving to the Q+A slot.
[08:18] <jordi> Rosetta has a limitted workforce behind it, and people wonder how
[08:18] <jordi> can they help us getting their desired features implemented, if
[08:18] <jordi> Rosetta's code isn't at this moment Free Software.
[08:18] <jordi> sabdfl has explicitly expressed his desire to free chunks of
[08:18] <jordi> Launchpad when Canonical is ready to do it. It will take time,
[08:18] <jordi> but we have public statements in this direction. If people want
[08:18] <jordi> to help out, access to the code can be granted via a NDA scheme
[08:18] <jordi> -- there are some people doing this already.
[08:18] <jordi> People always ask us for this or that feature they'd really want
[08:18] <jordi> to see in Rosetta. The best way to request them is to file bugs
[08:18] <jordi> against Rosetta in Launchpad, so they can be tracked by the
[08:19] <jordi> Rosetta developers. You can have a peek at what the team is
[08:19] <jordi> currently working on by looking at the list of Rosetta specs:
[08:19] <jordi>    https://launchpad.net/products/rosetta/+specs
[08:19] <remaxim> Is here some space left for a question? Do you beliefe that ubuntu could run without the financial support of Mark in near future?
[08:20] <jordi> remaxim: if that's addressed at mark, the session is over, but if he wants to answer, I have no problems
[08:20] <jordi> if it's addressed at me, well, it's out of my scope, but yes, of course it can. :)
[08:21] <remaxim> jordi: it was addressed to you, if you can answer it aswell
[08:21] <remaxim> thanks
[08:21] <kiko-fud> remaxim, #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[08:22] <jordi> Ubuntu in particular has built an impressive community in 2.5 years. If Canonical pulled the plug and the Ubuntu Foundation didn't get any funding, the many community members would surely kkep developing it
[08:22] <jordi> there'd be changes, but it would continue, I'm sure.
[08:22] <jordi> Back to rsetta now :)
[08:22] <freakcode> jordi, LaunchPad and Rosetta is crucial to Ubuntu model of development. So, how can it be integrated in Ubuntu desktop (tools)?
[08:23] <jordi> Another source of FAQs is how to deal with the fact that sometimes, Rosetta and upstream projects (such as GNOME or KDE) end up with divergent sets of translations. This is due to the fact that Ubuntu translators can change/fork the translations coming from upstream sources in Rosetta, or even create them before they exist in CVS
[08:24] <jordi> freakcode: kiko might want to input here, but if Canonical went out of business, the Launchpad would probably be freed, and it would continue to operate more or less.
[08:24] <jordi> This divergence of translations between upstream and Ubuntu causes some grief in some teams
[08:25] <sabdfl> jordi: +1, LP would be freed if Canonical died, and the Ubuntu Foundation would carry Ubuntu forward
[08:25] <kiko> well, that's an interesting question. I can assure people that Canonical would provide Launchpad would a decent exit strategy if it was considering going out of business, but to be honest that is not on the discussion board right now -- nor has it ever been. we are growing! :)
[08:25] <jordi> We're working on measures to make it easy to revert it, but it is also important to have Ubuntu translators understand that they need to work closely with upstream so these situations are rare, not th enorm
[08:26] <jordi> So we'll be seeing a few changes in how ubuntu l10n teams work in the future
[08:26] <tom56> jordi: When I suggest a translation, it doesn't seem to appear on the page. Have I done someting wrong?
[08:26] <tom56> *something not someting
[08:27] <kiko> tom56, are you sure that's what happened, or was it just that you moved on to the next page?
[08:27] <jordi> we're discussing introducing the figures of the "reviewers" to help team leaders select who can "commit" into the translations and who can't
[08:27] <jordi> at the moment we just have members and non-members. Non members can suggest, and those suggestions need to be manually integrated.
[08:28] <jordi> tom56: it doesn't appear as a suggestion for the string?
[08:28] <tom56> jordi: No
[08:28] <tom56> https://translations.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/nautilus/+pots/nautilus/en_GB/+translate?field.alternative_language=en&start=1140
[08:28] <tom56> I suggest "Wastebasket" instead of "Trash" or the current translation "Deleted Items"
[08:28] <jordi> if there are many suggestions, only a few are displayed, I believe. They might appear in the detailed view (see the + link near the original string in the page)
[08:29] <tuxub> are there any portuguese translators around?
[08:29] <tom56> jordi: Not there either
[08:29] <jordi> tom56: I don't have time to look at the specific bug right now, but we can have a look at it later in #launchpad.
[08:29] <tom56> jordi: Sure, thanks
[08:30] <jordi> Which, by the way, is the IRC channel where you can contact the Rosetta team: danilos, carlos and me.
[08:30] <tuxub> #launchpad
[08:30] <jordi> Other people in the channel may be able to help if we're not available at some time
[08:31] <jordi> you can ask questions in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat, if there are any
[08:31] <Ltsvenks> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat,
[08:31] <jordi> it seems some people are trying to digest al the infomation I just dumped here. :)
[08:31] <tuxub> yap :)
[08:31] <jordi> 20:33 < dand> jordi: and maybe care to expand on the kind of changes "we'll be seeing [...]  in how ubuntu l10n teams work in the future"? :)
[08:32] <jordi> ok, so those following the rosetta-users list will know the quality problems have been a major topic during the last months
[08:33] <jordi> during the last company meeting, the rosetta developers spent quite some time discussing it and how to improve workflows to avoid them
[08:33] <jordi> The biggest source of problem is oversized teams
[08:33] <jordi> right now, any member in a translation group has rights to translate... or tamper with any translation of any package in main.
[08:34] <jordi> This is good, it opens the door for many people to contribute, but in some cases it has caused problems as teams would be accepting basically anyone who knocked at the door, not even knowing if they knew just a little bit of English
[08:35] <jordi> the results were that some languages were seeing a few bad translations in some areas.
[08:35] <jordi> We recommend that team leaders be very careful about this now, and some teams have developed some guidelines and internal rules that are working well for them
[08:36] <jordi> for example, the Italians and Brazilians are working through a mailing list, and newcomers basically are "tested" to see if they can be trusted to do good translations, or need some training
[08:37] <jordi> they are pointed at the glossaries, style guides, etc which are relevant for the translations they'll focus on, and they are also taught to contact upstream translators if any, so they can cooperate
[08:37] <jordi> this avoids crappy translations, and duplicate translations between upstream and ubuntu
[08:38] <jordi> also, we want to help get rid of the "divergence" problems by making it easy to identify what strings have changed in Ubuntu with respect to the originals, so they can be corrected in Rosetta, or in upstream CVS, whatever applies
[08:39] <jordi> and also, there's talk about introducing a new level of membership in teams, as outlined before
[08:39] <jordi> 20:35 < alefteris> QUESTION: Would you advice translating a few parts of ubuntu, like gnome, upstream to avoid regressions and use rosseta for ubuntu specific packages only? Is it possible to block the translation of specific packages in in rosseta and get translations only from upstream?
[08:39] <dand> sounds great, thanks jordi :)
[08:39] <jordi> alefteris: this more or less overlaps with what I explained above
[08:40] <jordi> but no, we don't want to lock upstream translations in rosetta
[08:40] <jordi> this is by design.
[08:40] <jordi> Upstream translations are notperfect, and one of the great, unique features in ubuntu is the ability to update translations not even after upstream has shipped their tarball
[08:41] <jordi> but also after ubuntu itself has shipped a final CD release, via the langpacks system I explained before
[08:42] <jordi> so, if there's a big, ugly typo in  your Bulgarian gnome-panel, the Bulgarian translators can fix it in dapper after the release even, and won't have to see the typo during the next 3 years.
[08:42] <jordi> what I explained before applies: even if these changes can be made, we encourage the ubuntu translators notify upstream translators about the problems they find, so these changes swim upstream too
[08:43] <jordi> this way, everyone wins: ubuntu gets instant updates via langpacks, the rest of GNOME users will see the ubuntu fixes with the next GNOME release.
[08:43] <jordi> 20:39 < mruiz> QUESTION: hello. Currently I have an horrible translation bug for nm-applet. (spanish -> still there!) What's about QA translation in Rossetta?
[08:44] <jordi> mruiz: I'm not sure I get your idea. If there's a bug in nm-applet, it can be easily fixed in Rosetta so next month it won't be there anymore.
[08:44] <jordi> We are working on a "Review mode", if you mean this
[08:44] <mruiz> ok
[08:45] <jordi> This would ease reviewing the already done translations. This feature is top priority right now, should be in Rosetta very soon.
[08:45] <mruiz> jordi, how usually do reviews are made?
[08:46] <jordi> mruiz: it entirely depends on the teams. If a team is well organised and schedules a "review squad" every now and then, the benefits can be very visible
[08:46] <jordi> but that requires a lot of manpower, and unluckily, not all th teams have it
[08:46] <mruiz> I proposed many fixes to spanish translations... I must coordinate with spanish team?
[08:47] <jordi> how did you propose them?
[08:47] <jordi> via suggestions?
[08:47] <mruiz> jordi: yes, via LP
[08:48] <jordi> mruiz: if you're a member of the Spanish team, you should be able to make the changes directly.
[08:48] <mruiz> ok, them I will join to spanish translators team
[08:48] <jordi> If you aren't, you should contact one member and tell them about your proposals, so they can integrate. And immediately after, you should join your Spanish tam :)
[08:48] <jordi> 20:47 < adrian3> QUESTION: [practical]  I have a question about some translations... some are a kind of "O_pen..." How do I translate them ? ( "open" for example in italian language is "apri" and in romanian language is "deschide"), but what to do with that underscore ?
[08:49] <mruiz> jordi: thanks for yours answers
[08:49] <jordi> adrian3: "_" characters are accelerators. They are transformed into the underlined letters you see in your menu iteams, which make them accesible via alt+<underlined letter>
[08:50] <jordi> if using the same letter as in English is impossible, just use another one.
[08:50] <mdke> it's important to be consistent between applications for those letters, right?
[08:50] <jordi> Be careful not to use a letter that was already used by another item of the same menu, though
[08:51] <jordi> it's hard to refine these, can mostly be done only by testing the translation after writing it
[08:51] <OgMaciel> adrian3 it is always a good ideia to find out from the local gnome/kde/mozilla/oo2 groups what their standards are
[08:51] <OgMaciel> mdke that would be ideal
[08:51] <jordi> mdke: yeah, for most of the usual menu items they will be as the items come from base libraries like gtk+, kdelibs or libgnomeui
[08:52] <jordi> but yes, for consistency it's good to have Alt+F for File everywhere, etc
[08:52] <jordi> 20:51 < dand> QUESTION: any specific plans on improving OpenOffice support?
[08:53] <jordi> dand: very specific plans indeed :) Rosetta will very soon be able to export OpenOffice data in the language packs.
[08:53] <dand> yay! :)
[08:53] <jordi> OpenOffice.org support and Firefox support are also top priority for the team right now.
[08:54] <jordi> we still have 5 minutes!
[08:54] <jordi> more questions?
[08:55] <jordi> danilo and I have plans to work on good documen tation for rosetta in the following weeks. Hopefuly, many of the questions you have today will be easily solvable by them
[08:56] <mdke> I have one
[08:56] <jordi> 20:56 < alefteris> QUESTION: Is there a way to quickly test the translation of a specific package on the actual gui? Would be super cool!
[08:56] <jordi> alefteris: no, other than requesting a po download and placing it in the correct place of your file system so the application could have the very latest translations
[08:57] <jordi> that's time consuming, but that's how you do it :)
[08:57] <jordi> or, you can use pitti's daily generated language packs.
[08:57] <alefteris> link?
[08:57] <jordi> I'm afraid I don't have the apt line handy right now
[08:57] <jordi> anyone?
[08:58] <jordi> hm, I'll try to dig that answer as we go
[08:58] <jordi> 20:57 < OgMaciel> jordi [QUESTION]  When will you guys unlock upload of .pos?
[08:58] <alefteris> ok thanks
[08:58] <teprrr> sorry to interrupt, but isn't it possible to work a bit more with other projects' translation teams?
[08:59] <jordi> I'm not sure about the fcurrent status of the bug that is causing this (translations were being reverted to old values), but I know carlos is doing good progress, so it'll hopefully be soon
[08:59] <jordi> teprrr: we've been discussing that during the session. The answer is yes, it's not only possible, but being encouraged as much as possible.
[09:00] <tonyyarusso> done jordi ?
[09:00] <tonyyarusso> mdke: ready?
[09:00] <jordi> Okay, if there's no more questions, I think it's mdke's time!
[09:00] <mdke> yeah, if jordi is finished
[09:00] <carlos> the code is ready
[09:00] <sabdfl> rock on
[09:00] <jordi> thanks everyone
[09:00] <sabdfl> thanks jordi
[09:00] <carlos> we are doing QA tasks
[09:01] <sabdfl> thanks carlos
[09:01] <sabdfl> mdke, floor is yours!
[09:01] <alefteris> thanks a lot jordi
[09:01] <carlos> sorry for the late answer
[09:01] <Bourlotieris> thank you jordi
[09:01] <mdke> alright, thanks. Welcome everyone, I'm going to talk about Ubuntu documentation
[09:01] <jordi> np, see you in #launchpad if you need more from us!
[09:01] <mdke> I'll do a little introduction.
[09:01] <mdke> tell me if I go too fast
[09:02] <mdke> The documentation team is completely made up of volunteers. The core team is [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc but many others contribute to documentation all the time.
[09:02] <mdke> To find out how to communicate with us, see [WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
[09:02] <mdke> The ultimate reference page for any information is [WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[09:02] <mdke> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces.
[09:02] <mdke> 1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called Docbook XML, and is hosted in our repository.
[09:03] <mdke> that's what you get when you click System->Help->System Documentation
[09:03] <mdke> 2. Online documentation - composed of an html version of 1, and a community driven wiki ([WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
[09:03] <mdke> clear so far?
[09:04] <mdke> ok. First I'll start by talking about 1. System Documentation
[09:04] <mdke> So, how can you contribute to these documents
[09:04] <mdke> Diving in and trying things out is the best way to begin getting involved.
[09:04] <mdke> Download our repository, and start getting familiar with the markup language by reading and editing some existing documents. We have a validation tool included which will tell you where there is an error in the document markup. If you are confused, you can ask in #ubuntu-doc or on the mailing list, and you will generally get some help, but you should be patient!
[09:05] <mdke> Low hanging fruit for those wishing to get involved:
[09:05] <mdke> Proof reading is a good way to get involved. Also, we have a number of bugs open about typos, errors, omissions, which you can try and fix. See [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs and [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs (in the latter link substitute ubuntu-docs with xubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs if interested in that variant!)
[09:06] <mdke> We have some key tasks we want to look at for the next release of Ubuntu
[09:06] <mdke> these are:
[09:06] <mdke> 1. Improving the navigability and readability of the help ([WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp).
[09:06] <mdke> that's our major specification we're working on right now
[09:06] <mdke> 2. #
[09:06] <mdke> 2. Incorporating material from the Official Ubuntu Book into appropriate sections in the system documentation, amending the style accordingly.
[09:06] <mdke> 3. Addressing areas which are missing from the documentation, in particular by reviewing material on the wiki/forum/mailing lists and converting it to docbook for inclusion in the system documentation (there is a good tool for doing this conversion).
[09:07] <mdke> 4. Updating existing information which is no longer valid due to inclusion of new features in Feisty.
[09:08] <mdke> so that's a whistlestop overview of the system documentation. Does anyone have some questions specifically on that aspect of the documentation? Afterwards I'll talk about the community-driven wiki
[09:08] <mdke> but let's have a few questions now, otherwise I feel like I'm talking to myself...
[09:08] <kudzubane> i've got one in -chat
[09:09] <mdke> can you ask in in here?
[09:09] <mdke> it*
[09:09] <kudzubane> QUESTION: Is the HTML non-wiki documentation generated from DocBook as well?
[09:09] <mdke> yeah. The material you see at https://help.ubuntu.com is simply an HTML version of our system documentation
[09:09] <kudzubane> Question: Is the documentation project also responsible for the Ubuntu book?
[09:10] <mdke> kudzubane: no, we're not responsible for the book. That's done privately
[09:10] <kudzubane> member:jmbuser_
[09:10] <kudzubane> :
[09:10] <kudzubane> Question: What tools are you currently using for producing system documentation?
[09:10] <mdke> one moment
[09:10] <mdke> one more point on the book
[09:10] <mdke> it's under a free license, so as I mentioned, an important part of this release cycle will be dedicated to integrating it with the system documentation
[09:10] <Burgwork> kudzubane: no, the official ubuntu book is done by Prentice Hall and Canonical
[09:11] <Burgwork> however, as mdke points out, it is under a free license
[09:11] <jonathan_> join ubuntu-classroom-chat
[09:11] <mdke> ok, the tools question now
[09:11] <kudzubane> i seem to remember reading the book is done voluntarily
[09:12] <mdke> kudzubane: no, that's not correct: the authors are private individuals who are paid for it, but they are also community members
[09:12] <mdke> but the documentation team isn't involved
[09:12] <kudzubane> thx
[09:13] <mdke> so, the tools. As I say, the markup is called docbook xml, which uses tags a bit like HTML
[09:13] <mdke> it can look quite complicated, but it is very easy to get a feel for how to add things
[09:13] <teprrr> jordi, ah, okay. just thinking that translate this application page doesn't clearly show that you're only translating for ubuntu.. and another thing is that it's currently impossible for translation team leaders to update things to upstream
[09:13] <mdke> that's the basic tool. Can the person who asked the question clarify what they wanted to know?
[09:15] <mdke> no?
[09:15] <mdke> ok, any other questions on the system documentation? I should probably mention translation, which is a key task too
[09:16] <mdke> the documentation gets translated using Rosetta, in the same way as other Ubuntu programs
[09:16] <jmbuser> my followup is posted in-chat
[09:16] <mdke> jmbuser: feel free to post it in here
[09:17] <jmbuser> ok, more specifically, what editors do you use or is it a matter of personal taste?
[09:17] <mdke> personal taste. I happen to like gedit myself :)
[09:18] <mdke> bluefish can be nice too, and lots use emacs/vi/nano/whatever
[09:18] <apokryphos> Quanta+ is very good for docbook, too
[09:18] <Burgwork> the Kubuntu peope use kate as well
[09:18] <teprrr> mdke, are you translation documentation for non-ubuntu related stuff too?
[09:18] <jonathan_> nano is always usefull (not great, but usefull)
[09:18] <teprrr> mdke, if so, it'd be nice to have those translations to upstream too..
[09:19] <mihakriket> Is thier a template for the docs?
[09:19] <jmbuser> Last part: Do you use any specific gedit plugin?
[09:19] <mdke> ok, I'll answer these questions now. Hold off on them for a while
[09:19] <apokryphos> (just a note that http://quanta.kdewebdev.org/tutorials/quanta-docbook/quanta.html had a good docbook+quanta howto)
[09:19] <mdke> teprrr: no, as far as I know, no upstream documentation is translated in Rosetta.
[09:20] <mdke> jmbuser: no, I don't use any plugins.
[09:20] <teprrr> mdke, okay.
[09:20] <jmbuser> mdke: thanks
[09:20] <mdke> mihakriket: we have a couple of templates yes. They are in our repository under incoming, see for example: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/incoming/
[09:20] <mdke> however the best way to work is to simply open up an existing document and explore that.
[09:21] <mdke> one very important thing to emphasise
[09:21] <mdke> if people don't understand how to use docbook, we'll accept input from anywhere: bug reports, mailing list, wiki articles, and so on
[09:21] <mdke> that brings me on nicely to the wiki material, so I'll explain that, then take more questions
[09:22] <mdke> so this is the wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community
[09:22] <mdke> to contribute:
[09:22] <mdke> Simply log into the wiki (using your launchpad account), and correct errors you find in documents. Read existing documents to become familiar with the wiki markup, which is very simple. Above anything else, read the wiki guide: [WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.
[09:23] <mdke> a good guide to our wiki markup is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnEditing
[09:23] <mdke> it's very simple.
[09:23] <mdke> Low hanging fruit for those wishing to get involved:
[09:23] <mdke> One way of becoming familiar with the material and how we work is to begin reading it and checking it for accuracy. Report any bugs at the above links!
[09:23] <mdke> A number of more substantial "wiki-tasks" (as well as a list of pages that need serious attention) are listed on [WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo.
[09:24] <mdke> The key tasks for improving the wiki over the next release are:
[09:24] <mdke> 1. Improve the self-maintainability of the wiki by introducing easy tools for quality assurance ([WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance). This spec needs ideas, discussion and eventually some code!
[09:25] <mdke> 2. Once we have a nice system in place, doing quality assurance to ensure users are given reliable information and can quickly identify how reliable a page is.
[09:25] <mdke> 3. Improving existing material and adding new material to the wiki, in particular drawing on the immense resources offered by the forums ([WWW]  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum)
[09:26] <mdke> 4. Clarify the license of material on the wiki by convincing the Community Council to approve the year-old specification ([WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing).
[09:27] <mdke> (there are quite a lot of links in this presentation, I'll make some notes available so that people can read over them and take in the pages I've linked to with a bit more time)
[09:27] <mdke> A long-term goal (at least for me) is to bring the system documentation and the online documentation closer and closer together, so that eventually it is easy for the system documentation to draw on contributions via the wiki,
[09:27] <mdke> and (the other side of the coin) users to browse and search all of the available documentation via a single interface, be it via the online website or the system help viewer. This goal is rather a large one, and is essentially waiting on the right tools to come together.
[09:28] <mdke> Ok. That was a quick summary of the wiki documentation material we have. I've come to the end of my prepared presentation, so we can dedicate the rest of the session to questions.
[09:29] <mdke> feel free to post questions in here, but please wait until I've answered the previous question. Who's first?
[09:30] <mihakriket> To edit the documents on the wiki, do you need to be a member of the docs team?
[09:31] <mdke> mihakriket: absolutely not. You need to log in, and then you can go ahead and edit. If you are making structural or seriously large changes, it's a good idea to discuss them on the mailing list, but otherwise, basically free reign at this time
[09:31] <mdke> mihakriket: any follow up questions to that?
[09:31] <mihakriket> No, thank you.
[09:32] <mdke> cool. anyone have another question?
[09:33] <daxelrod> Ok, if nobody else has a question... is this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/53691 appropriately assigned to the doc team? Or is there someone else it should go to?
[09:34] <mdke> no, that should be on "installation-guide"
[09:34] <daxelrod> Ah, OK, thank you. I'll change that.
 Question: Is the documentation project also responsible for the Ubuntu book?
[09:34] <kudzubane> that one has been answered
[09:34] <mdke> apokryphos: we've answered that question
[09:35] <mdke> more questions! Don't be shy
[09:35] <apokryphos> ah ok, sorry. /me scrolls up
[09:35] <violot> Did I miss all lessons today again? :(
[09:35] <somerville32> Nope :)
[09:35] <violot> Yay! :D
[09:35] <violot> How many are left?
[09:36] <mdke> that depends... on whether people have some more questions for the documentation session
[09:36] <violot> Dang, I wish I'd made that one
[09:36] <daxelrod>  <KHatfull> QUESTION: Are proper backup/restore/disaster recovery procedures/documentation something being looked at?
[09:37] <violot> Sweet, I getta see the Xubuntu one
[09:37] <violot> Too bad school limits me to the last lesson only :(
[09:37] <mdke> KHatfull: no, we don't have any system documentation about that. It would be a nice thing to include. There may be material on the wiki, if so, then maybe it can be tidied up and transformed into something that can be included in the system documentation
[09:38] <mdke> KHatfull: if you're interested in working on that, that would be great. If not, you can open a bug and hopefully someone will be inspired to look at that area
[09:38] <KHatfull> Thanks...
[09:38] <daxelrod> QUESTION: What level of expertise are assumed of the reader of documentation? Or does it depend on what is being documented?
[09:38] <mdke> good question
[09:39] <mdke> yes, to some extent it depends on what is being documented. We tend to try and assume the level of expertise is something around what we envisage as being the level of the average Ubuntu user
[09:39] <mdke> so we try and make it as easy to understand as possible, even for someone who is new to Ubuntu
[09:39] <mdke> but we tend to assume some experience with computers
[09:39] <Burgwork> we also assume that the reader is more familar with and more comfortable with graphical tools
[09:39] <mdke> some documents cover the basics, and others more advanced subjects, of course
[09:40] <mdke> good point Burgwork
[09:40] <mdke> daxelrod: is that somewhere near an answer to your question?
[09:40] <daxelrod> mdke: Yes, thank you.
[09:41] <mdke> cool. Anyone else have some questions? Are people reading interested in improving documentation in Ubuntu?
[09:41] <mdke> we could sure use some help, and it's a great way of getting involved in Ubuntu for newcomers and experienced users alike
[09:41] <dnkorte> if someone wanted to get involved in proofreading, whom does he contact?
[09:41] <violot> I'd be interested maybe in some docs.
[09:41] <lazywanker> QUESTION: sorry if this has been covered already.  how are k/x/ed/ubuntu specific docs integrated with the ubuntu (read: gnome) docs.  is there a section for the ubuntu-common stuff that covers all distros?
[09:42] <mdke> dnkorte: our mailing list is a great place to start. and diving in :)
[09:42] <mihakriket> Yes.
[09:42] <dnkorte> where to signup for mailing list?
[09:42] <mdke> lazywanker: some material is common between the distributions. For example the server material, packaging guide, and the desktop based material is kept as similar as possible
[09:43] <mdke> lazywanker: x/ed/ubuntu do not have very much overlap, to my knowledge
[09:43] <mdke> dnkorte: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
[09:43] <violot> QUESTION: Where do you need help in the docs the most?
[09:44] <violot> Or what do you need help on... etc.
[09:44] <mdke> violot: that rather depends on whether you are interested in contributing on the wiki or to the system documentation
[09:44] <lazywanker> mdke: wrt to previous question. surely then you're going to get alot of overlap and/or people having to hunt in two places for an answer?
[09:45] <mdke> I mentioned some key tasks during the presentation. I won't repeat them here, but I'll make my notes available on the mailing list, on the wiki and on my blog
[09:45] <violot> mdke: Thanks :)
[09:45] <mdke> lazywanker: can you explain what you mean in a bit more detail?
[09:45] <mihakriket> I would be interested on working on the wiki. I sometimes have time @ work to go online.
[09:45] <daxelrod> QUESTION: The hardest part for me in learning about Ubuntu has been going from some aspect of the integrated system to the name of that component. Is there some index that maps one to the other? (Example: LiveCD Installer <-> Ubiquity)
[09:45] <violot> mdke: Got a link to your weblog?  I'm not familiar with you, don't think I've seen you before :)
[09:45] <mdke> mihakriket: that would be great. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo are the key pages
[09:46] <mdke> violot: it's at http://www.mdke.org
[09:46] <violot> Ah, :P
[09:46] <mdke> daxelrod: np. I'll wait for lazywanker's explanation, then answer yours
[09:46] <thebigearl> QUESTION: I want to help translating the system documentation to german. how can i do that?
[09:46] <lazywanker> mkde: continue without me   i take agest to type
[09:47] <mdke> thebigearl: all you need to know is how to use the [WWW]  Rosetta translation system. You can find out how to use that on the Rosetta wiki page. Once you have learnt all of this, the docteam documents can be found in several places: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs, [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kubuntu-docs, and [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xubuntu-docs. 
[09:48] <thebigearl> thanks
[09:48] <mdke> daxelrod: ok, your question
[09:48] <mdke> daxelrod: no, to my knowledge there isn't any such material. Usually, that's more of a task for people interested in contributing, rather than for users, who often don't need to know the names of programs
[09:49] <daxelrod> That's my main problem, I'd like to go from user to contributor.
[09:49] <mdke> daxelrod: ask ask ask is the answer
[09:49] <daxelrod> And I'm sure many others would as well.
[09:49] <mdke> daxelrod: in irc channels, mailing lists, and so on
[09:50] <daxelrod> Ok, fair enough. Thank you!
[09:50] <mdke> any other questions?
[09:50] <lazywanker> mdke:  bob wants to know how to do job x in kubuntu.  job x can be done in a number of ways, via cli, via guis in the various DEs.  bob doesn't know if he should hunt through the ubuntu wiki/help, the kubuntu wiki/help or what?  each place offers different methods.  obviously the gui stuff is different but the cli stuff is too since they are completely seperate.  how does he know which is 'right'?
[09:51] <mdke> lazywanker: ok, I understand
[09:52] <daxelrod> lazywanker: Very good question.
[09:52] <mdke> since Bob uses Kubuntu, he should use the Kubuntu help system (where the shared material appears, as well as Kubuntu-specific material). As for online material, Kubuntu and Ubuntu share the same online website.
[09:52] <apokryphos> (including same wiki)
[09:52] <mdke> (wiki = website)
[09:53] <lazywanker> great. thanks :)
[09:53] <daxelrod> QUESTION: Has vandalism been a problem with the documentation wiki? I could see somebody replacing useful instructions with instructions to trash the system, for example.
[09:53] <mdke> no, so far it hasn't. People tend to keep an eye on key pages, and we haven't experienced serious problems
[09:54] <daxelrod> Thanks!
[09:54] <mdke> the wiki software has some access control systems which we can use if problems arise, but so far it hasn't been necessary
[09:54] <Burgwork> daxelrod: we also disallowed anon edits, which removes some of the driveby vandals
[09:55] <mdke> does anyone have any other questions?
[09:56] <daxelrod> Thank you! The doc team does great work.
[09:56] <mdke> we'll answer any questions you think of on the mailing list, and in our irc channel. We'd also be very interested in ideas and feedback you have
[09:57] <somerville32> Thanks! :)
[09:57] <mdke> ok, if no one has any last questions, we'll pass onto the next session
[09:57] <mdke> who's doing it?
[09:57] <maxamillion> somerville32 is
[09:57] <apokryphos> Ok, if there's nothing else we'll take a short break now before the next talk, which is Xubuntu. :)
[09:57] <mdke> cool
[09:57] <maxamillion> :)
[09:57] <somerville32> Yeah for Xubuntu! :)
[09:58] <somerville32> Ok, I guess we'll start in a few minutes. :)
[10:00] <tictacaddict> phew so I'm not too late
[10:00] <maxamillion> nope :)
[10:00] <apokryphos> somerville32: ok, feel free to take it away :)
[10:00] <somerville32> Alrighty! :)
[10:00] <somerville32> Welcome everyone to the Ubuntu Open Week Xubuntu Session!
[10:01] <mihakriket> Thanks mdke. I will check on the links you gave us.
[10:01] <somerville32> There are a few things I'd like to go over and then I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
[10:02] <somerville32> I'd ask that you please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and we'll make sure to work through them and answer them the best we can. :)
[10:02] <DenisTheMenace>  /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:02] <somerville32> First off, I'd like to introduce myself.
[10:03] <somerville32> My name is Cody Somerville, I've been using Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu for some time now (And loving every minute I might add).
[10:03] <somerville32> I'm also an Xubuntu developer.
[10:04] <somerville32> I'd also like to introduce some of my colleagues.
[10:05] <somerville32> Maxamillion, who has been a great help in developing our new website
[10:05] <maxamillion> hello everyone!
[10:05] <somerville32> TheSheep, who has made numerous contributions all across the board
[10:06] <somerville32> And I'm sure there are others lurking about but I'm not going to waste time scrolling through all 328 names.
[10:06] <somerville32> So... What _is_ Xubuntu?
[10:07] <somerville32> Xubuntu, as you may know, a GNU/Linux operation system that is built on top of the Ubuntu base.
[10:07] <somerville32> Xubuntu makes use of the Xfce4 desktop
[10:08] <somerville32> and is shipped with top quality packages from the Ubuntu archives. Xubuntu will use, as far as possible, GTK2 applications, ensuring maximum efficiency.
[10:08] <somerville32> However, since Ubuntu is built on the Ubuntu base, you can also install your KDE and Gnome applications.
[10:09] <somerville32> It is a common misconception that Xubuntu is only suitable for low-end desktops.
[10:09] <somerville32> I'd like to dispell that myth.
[10:10] <somerville32> Xubuntu and the Xfce4 desktop is fast, efficient, friendly to use but also carries a strong feature set.
[10:11] <somerville32> Xubuntu IS ideal for old or low-end machines, thin-client networks, and also for those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.
[10:12] <somerville32> Our aim is to provide the best desktop experience possible we can and we're working towards that goal.
[10:13] <somerville32> So, what kind of things are we working on?
[10:13] <somerville32> The Xubuntu Team is assisting upstream development - Thunar, Xfce4, etc.
[10:14] <somerville32> We've also taken responsibility for some of the light-weight, alternative software on launchpad
[10:14] <somerville32> ie. bug triage, working with upstream developers, etc.
[10:15] <somerville32> We're also working at improving our documentation efforts - both for official documentation and the wiki.
[10:15] <somerville32> The Xubuntu wiki pages have seen massive reorganization and updates in the last few weeks
[10:15] <somerville32> And the efforts continue to improve in these areas.
[10:16] <somerville32> Xubuntu Artwork is something I'm really proud of.
[10:17] <somerville32> J Mak, TheSheep, and the rest of the Xubuntu artwork team have been doing an awesome job.
[10:17] <somerville32> Programming, packages, and development has also seen a recent surge in activty.
[10:18] <somerville32> Jani, Crimsun, Gloubiboulga, TheSheep, etc. have all been working really hard on different projects to help improve Xubuntu and give back to the Ubuntu project as a whole.
[10:19] <somerville32> Vincent, Adam, and Jonathon have done some amazing work with our new website.
[10:20] <somerville32> And we've all been working very hard to give back Ubuntu and all the sister projects through advocacy and other individual efforts.
[10:20] <somerville32> So, how can people get involved with Xubuntu?
[10:20] <somerville32> Getting involved with Xubuntu is extreamly easy!
[10:21] <somerville32> We have a very detailed adaption of the Ubuntu contribution page available at: http://xubuntu.org/devel
[10:21] <somerville32> # Join the Xubuntu-devel mailing list
[10:21] <somerville32> # Join us in #xubuntu-devel on irc.freenode.net
[10:21] <somerville32> # Join us in meetings to help network with others and share ideas
[10:22] <somerville32> Once you've gotten yourself settled, you'll want to look at getting involved in one of our teams/projects such as the wiki effort, documentation effort, artwork effort, etc.
[10:23] <somerville32> Once you've made some sustained contribution, you can feel free to join the Xubuntu-team team on launchpad to become an official Xubuntu developer.
[10:24] <somerville32> I guess I can take some questions now :)
[10:26] <NeilW> Why no games *at all* in Xubuntu as distributed?
[10:26] <somerville32> NeilW: Currently there are no games included by default in Xubuntu but that may change in the future.
[10:26] <somerville32> I know when I first tried linux
[10:26] <C_Mooney> Will you ever impose a limit on Xubuntu - ie when will it become *too* bloated?
[10:27] <somerville32> NeilW: I really enjoyed trying out the different games that came with the distro - I see it as a good icebreaker.
[10:27] <apokryphos> !questions
[10:27] <ubotu> Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[10:27] <jeanvial> QUESTION: In the future you thing include a Xubuntu distro for PC Pocket?
[10:27] <fzap> Q: what is the minimum hardware requirement for running xubuntu.
[10:28] <NeilW> Yes, I think that's my feeling too.  You don't need everything but a few games make a nice entry to using a new machine.  And for while waiting for the printer....
[10:28] <somerville32> C_Mooney: We're constantly supervising and re-evaluating our goals to ensure things are kept in check.
[10:28] <maxamillion> jeanvial: no, it would still be a little heavy for something like a pocketpc, there are projects for pocketpcs that use gui toolkits geared for embedded systems
[10:29] <somerville32> C_Mooney: However, the end-users are the real check and balance. If people start complaining then we're ready to listen and to respond.
[10:29] <jeanvial> ok
[10:30] <somerville32> jeanvial: That currently isn't one of our goals but I'm not counting the possibility out.
[10:30] <maxamillion> fzap: minimum for a _usable_ installion would be 200Mhz w/ 64mb of ram (128mb of ram recommended)
[10:30] <somerville32> fzap: My main box is a 333mhz w/ 128mb of ram
[10:31] <jeanvial> well
[10:31] <somerville32> Fzap: It runs ok but it can get bogged down if I run too many heavy applications due to lack of ram.
[10:33] <TLE> < Bourlotieris> QUESTION: Will there be any Beryl effects in Xubuntu Feisty as is planned for Ubuntu (GNOME) ?
[10:33] <jeanvial> Well, thanks to everybody for your great effor
[10:34] <somerville32> There is a compositor built into Xfce4 and it can be enabled in Edgy.
[10:34] <TLE> < jjtec1> QUESTION:Any particular times more busy than others in the irc?
[10:34] <somerville32> jjtec1: In the evening, Xubuntu can get very busy.
[10:34] <somerville32> I'm not sure if I could give you an exact time though.
[10:35] <TLE> < tictacaddict> QUESTION: Xubuntu seems to get left out sometimes in news updates, how-to's, wiki entries, etc.  People will mention Ubuntu and  Kubuntu but leave out Xubuntu.  Is that because it's relatively new?  Because people don't like XFCE?  What?  I feel like it isn't  getting the coverage it deserves.
[10:35] <maxamillion> 15:26 < bruenig> QUESTION: What sort of criteria is used to weigh efficiency  and productivity. Are there applications that you rule out  because they are just too resource intensive even if they  provide a significant productivity boost. And are there things  you include because of productivity even though they are more  resource hungry than lighter alternatives. Ideally you would
[10:35] <somerville32> hehe
[10:35] <maxamillion>  liketo get maximum  productivity while keeping it light weig
[10:35] <somerville32> One at a time please :)
[10:35] <maxamillion> 15:26 < bruenig> ht but how do you weigh those two things when they are in  conflict to make a decision on what to include?
[10:35] <somerville32> tictacaddict: It isn't because people don't like Xfce, just that Xubuntu is still new
[10:36] <somerville32> I've been making a personal effort to get people more Xubuntu aware.
[10:36] <somerville32> To get Xubuntu the coverage, people need to show interest
[10:36] <TLE> < jjtec1> QUESTION: are any language skills better than others in Xubuntu?
[10:37] <somerville32> bruenig: Thats a major concern for us too.
[10:37] <somerville32> bruening: For example, Xubuntu doesn't include open office by default
[10:37] <somerville32> We instead include an alternative office suite
[10:37] <maxamillion> jjtec1: langauge skills?
[10:38] <TLE> somerville32: jjtec1 means programming
[10:38] <somerville32> We're always looking to improve the balance and contribute upstream
[10:38] <somerville32> jjtec1: Well, I know a lot of us like python
[10:39] <TheSheep> jjtec1: xfce itself is writen in c++
[10:39] <maxamillion> jjtec1: C and python are generally the most common ... xfce and alot of its applications are written in C/C++
[10:40] <somerville32> I see TONS of questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat

[10:41] <TheSheep> < jjtec1> QUESTION:Can a 1st year c++ student be any help?
[10:42] <somerville32> Ofcourse!
[10:42] <maxamillion> < jjtec1> QUESTION:I am a student and used equipment is the normal for  me, will xfce continue to work on keeping wieght down to a  minimum?
[10:42] <somerville32> It is one our primary selling points and focuses.
[10:42] <maxamillion> < Bourlotieris> QUESTION: Will there be any Beryl effects in Xubuntu  Feisty as is planned for Ubuntu (GNOME) ?
[10:42] <somerville32> Already answered :)
[10:42] <Bourlotieris> :)
[10:42] <somerville32>  Qustion: does Xubuntu have any official ties to Canonical?
[10:43] <somerville32> Xubuntu is an official sister project such as Kubuntu and Edubuntu.
[10:43] <apokryphos> by kudzubane
[10:43] <somerville32> Sorry
[10:43] <somerville32> :] 
[10:44] <apokryphos> np :P
[10:44] <somerville32> I personally feel that Xubuntu is very easy to get involved with
[10:44] <apokryphos> [21:27:23]  <tictacaddict> QUESTION: The xfwm4 compositor doesn't seem to be available since I upgraded to edgy.  Was it intentionally disabled (and why?) or is that just a problem on my end?  If it's enabled and I'm just missing something... sorry/nevermind!
[10:45] <somerville32> As I haven't personally upgraded to Edgy, I'll ask max or TheSheep to answer this one.
[10:45] <somerville32> However, it is my understanding that you must enable it
[10:46] <tictacaddict> I got some advice on enabling it in -chat.  I haven't restarted xfce yet because I'm using gaim but hopefully that is the solution.
[10:46] <somerville32> Perfect! :)
[10:46] <somerville32> If you need any help, feel free to ask for support in #xubuntu
[10:46] <maxamillion> somerville32: TheSheep answered that one already
[10:47] <apokryphos> [21:24:13]  <bruenig> QUESTION: What sort of criteria is used to weigh efficiency and productivity. Are there applications that you rule out because they are just too resource intensive even if they provide a significant productivity boost. And are there things you include because of productivity even though they are more resource hungry than lighter alternatives. Ideally you would like to get maximum productivity while keeping i
[10:47] <apokryphos> [21:24:13]  <bruenig> ht but how do you weigh those two things when they are in conflict to make a decision on what to include?
[10:47] <somerville32> bruenig: We discuss the pros and cons on the mailing list
[10:47] <somerville32> We look at "How does this benefit the user?"
[10:48] <somerville32> "How resource intensive is the application?"
[10:48] <somerville32> "What are the alternatives?"
[10:48] <somerville32> Does that answer your question? :)
[10:49] <apokryphos> [21:46:54]  <fliegenderfrosch> QUESTION: Is there a list anywhere with features planned for feisty?
[10:49] <somerville32> We're currently still working on drawing up most of the initial specifications.
[10:50] <somerville32> However, Feel free to check out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications
[10:50] <somerville32> And you can even contribute by sharing your ideas for improvements to Xubuntu Feisty Fawn on the wiki
[10:51] <somerville32> Xubuntu is still young
[10:51] <somerville32> Xubuntu is still developing
[10:51] <somerville32> We're currently looking for dedicated individuals who'd like to help
[10:52] <somerville32> And we're constantly trying to make sure that the process of getting involved is as easy as possible (and it is easy). There is so many leadership positions that need filling, so much that people can get involved with.
[10:52] <TLE> < TLE> QUESTION: Newbie question here. Will installing a non GTK2 app slow the system down (on low-end machines) even when it is not run because  extra stuff have to be loaded at boottime or something like that?
[10:52] <somerville32> TLE: Good question.
[10:52] <somerville32> IT really depends on what you install
[10:52] <somerville32> Some applications start at boot
[10:53] <somerville32> And they WILL slow things down
[10:53] <somerville32> However, other applications will only slow things down when running
[10:53] <maxamillion> it will slow the machine down only when using that  application because the libraries required for it will be  used but once the application has terminated, the memory  used to support it and the loaded libraries will be  reclaimed by the system
[10:53] <somerville32> There is the option of enabling gnome and kde services within the control panel
[10:53] <somerville32> Some applications require these
[10:53] <somerville32> Some won't run without them
[10:53] <somerville32> But for sure they'll slow your system down
[10:53] <somerville32> And also make the applications take longer to load at times if the nessary libs aren't already loaded.
[10:53] <maxamillion> gnome libs are more forgiving then kde ones under xubuntu so when in need of an application, chose the gnome variation over kde whenever possible
[10:54] <maxamillion> JKnife: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat also
[10:54] <apokryphos> [21:52:06]  <devilsadvocate> Question : Why does xubuntu use gdm instead of xdm?
[10:55] <maxamillion> < jjtec1> QUESTION: is GTK2.0 used for xfce?
[10:55] <TheSheep> apokryphos: xdm doesn't really have all the required features, mainly the accessibility ones
[10:55] <maxamillion> oops
[10:55] <apokryphos> * devilsadvocate
[10:55] <TheSheep> apps, that was to devilsadvocate :)
[10:55] <somerville32> jjtec1: Yup. :)
[10:56] <apokryphos> [21:55:02]  <JKnife> QUESTION: why the different names for eatch DE?
[10:57] <somerville32> Welp, the different desktop environments use different names to help distinguish themselves. If all the DE shared the same name, it would cause confusion for sure.
[10:57] <apokryphos> JKnife: to differentiate them.
[10:57] <TheSheep> < jjtec1> QUESTION: doesn't KDE use the QT environment ?
[10:57] <somerville32> It uses the QT lib, yup.
[10:57] <apokryphos> TheSheep: KDE is based on the Q-toolkit, yeah.
[10:58] <apokryphos> * jjtec1
[10:58] <apokryphos> 8)
[10:58] <TheSheep> < arualavi> QUESTION: you say that xdm don't have all of the required features, the same with wdm?
[10:58] <maxamillion> < JKnife> How can I get involved in Xubuntu documentation?
[10:58] <TheSheep> auralavi: I don't really know much about wdm. Gdm has been tweaked to remove the gnome dependencies, and after that is pretty light.
[10:59] <somerville32> Currently we feel gdm is the best option because of the feature set plus because it is support by the Ubuntu team.
[10:59] <somerville32> *supported
[10:59] <maxamillion> bah! sorry, i keep doing that
[10:59] <arualavi> ok thanks
[10:59] <somerville32> However
[10:59] <somerville32> IF you see a good reason for us to switch, feel free to bring it up on the mailing list.
[10:59] <somerville32> JKnife: Good question.
[11:00] <somerville32> Documentation is an import part of any distro
[11:00] <somerville32> important
[11:00] <somerville32> Unfortunatly, Xubuntu is sort of lacking in this department.
[11:00] <MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
[11:00] <somerville32> However, we're always looking for individuals to help in our documentation efforts.
[11:00] <maxamillion> hello MacSlow
[11:01] <somerville32> I would recommend getting involved with the ubuntu docs team and focusing your efforts on documenting Xubuntu.
[11:01] <somerville32> You'll also find contact information on the wiki and at http://xubuntu.org/devel
[11:01] <apokryphos> ok, it's 10 o'clock now, but since there's no other session after feel free to carry on 8)
[11:01] <TLE> < TLE> QUESTION: Could you tell us a little bit about the common desktop app's that is part of Xubuntu. What they can and how good they are  compared to their GNOME/KDE counterparts
[11:01] <MacSlow> hi maxamillion
[11:02] <somerville32> TLE: Good question.
[11:03] <somerville32> We constantly trying to improve the set of applications we install by default
[11:03] <somerville32> We look at performance, feature set, alternatives, etc.
[11:03] <TheSheep> Iw ill try
[11:03] <somerville32> It is always improving.
[11:04] <somerville32> Personally... I enjoyed the set of applications installed by default because I know they'll be lightweight enough that I don't end up pulling my hair out.
[11:04] <JKnife> Will Xubuntu ever get shipit support?
[11:04] <TheSheep> TLE: Thunar is the file manager -- it's very fast compared to Nautilus, but has most of the important features
[11:04] <somerville32> Good example, TheSheep
[11:04] <somerville32> Personally, I prefer Thunar to Nautilus.
[11:04] <Burgwork> JKnife: that depends on Canonical
[11:05] <TheSheep> TLE: Abiword is the text processor -- it's a little simplier than OO Writer, but also supports .doc and .rtf files
[11:05] <TLE> QUESTION UPDATE: How about IM, and internet browser, and multimedia apps ?
[11:05] <somerville32> JKnife: We're working to get shipit support.
[11:05] <TheSheep> TLE: mousepad is the plain text editor -- compared to gedit2 it's very simple -- no syntax highlighting, etc. -- just text editing
[11:06] <JKnife> IM uses gaim, Web browser is firefox as the same with ubuntu, and i can not remeber what multimedia apps it comes with
[11:06] <TheSheep> TLE: we use firefox for internet browsing and gaim for im, just like ubuntu
[11:06] <TheSheep> TLE: there are no alternatives with similar feature set, or at least we coudn't find any
[11:06] <TLE> Nice.! my two favorite apps ;)
[11:07] <somerville32> Btw, Installing Xubuntu from Ubuntu is very easy
[11:07] <TheSheep> TLE: we use Thunaderbird instead of Evolution though
[11:07] <somerville32> apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
[11:07] <somerville32> :)
[11:07] <tictacaddict> xubuntu comes with gxine for multimedia, correct?
[11:07] <maxamillion> or aptitude install xubuntu-desktop for those who prefer aptitude
[11:07] <somerville32> In Edgy, yes.
[11:07] <TheSheep> < jjtec1> QUESTION:Thanks you listed the #irc, did I just miss the mailing list?
[11:07] <maxamillion> tictacaddict: correct
[11:07] <tictacaddict> xfmedia in daper
[11:07] <tictacaddict> dapper
[11:07] <no1z> And the player is xfmedia in Dapper
[11:07] <stani> QUESTION: How about samba/network support?
[11:07] <somerville32> Feel free to see http://xubuntu.org/devel for more information about getting involved with Xubuntu!
[11:08] <somerville32> Stani: Thats something we hope to improve for Feisty. :)
[11:08] <TheSheep> < tictacaddict> QUESTION: Why the switch from xfmedia to gxine anyway?  They are a little different but xfmedia seemed  to work okay.
[11:08] <stani> Great, it is the only thing for still needing nautilus from time to time.
[11:08] <maxamillion> stani: that is actually our biggest area of fallback at the moment, there are ways to create samba shares and such, but to browse them you must follow tutorials found in the forums because it is not yet a feature of Thunar
[11:09] <JKnife> 07:08 <tictacaddict> QUESTION: Why the switch from xfmedia to gxine anyway?  They are a little different but xfmedia seemed to work okay
[11:09] <somerville32> tictacaddict: xfmedia isn't as mature as gxine and it uses a better backend.
[11:09] <maxamillion> stani: and if you really feel the need you can install xffm4 which is the old xfce file manager before thunar and that has samba browse support
[11:10] <somerville32> :)
[11:10] <somerville32> Welp, I think my wrists are getting sore.
[11:11] <somerville32> I'd like to thank everyone for coming out.
[11:11] <somerville32> Lots of good questions
[11:11] <somerville32> I'd love to see you guys all get involved! :D
[11:11] <DenisTheMenace> Thanks very much guys and good night
[11:11] <somerville32> Woot! :D
[11:12] <stani> Thanks a lot! One of the reasons I love xubuntu is the iconbox applet which gnome even doesn't have.
[11:12] <somerville32> Stani: That IS a pretty cool feature! :D
[11:12] <JKnife> iconbox? i do not remeber that one o.O
[11:13] <TheSheep> JKnife: it's there since 4.2
[11:13] <JKnife> o.O NO WAI!
[11:13] <somerville32> :)
[11:14] <TheSheep> goodbye!
[11:14] <somerville32> See you all on xubuntu-devel !! :)
[11:14] <Bourlotieris> Thank you
[11:14] <stani> Thanks
[11:14] <somerville32> :)
[11:32] <gustavo> quit