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effie_jayxhey atoponce  :D03:59
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effie_jayxQUESTION: is it tomorrow yet???05:10
tovellaQUESTION: what is meant by "Freshers"?05:10
effie_jayx;D can hold my excitement lol05:10
effie_jayxnew people05:10
effie_jayxtovella, are you new to ubuntu?05:11
tovellano, but still learning more all the time.05:11
effie_jayxyou coming tomorrow05:12
tovellaeffie_jayx: i don't think so,  i have to go to a funeral.05:13
effie_jayxmy deepest condolences...05:13
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punknrollhi there08:40
punknrollanyone here ever tried runnign adobe cs2 on ubuntu?08:41
MarkoKaaI tried once and I didn't get it work08:44
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punknrollhmmm...that is what keeps me from switching totally to kubuntu...i simply need stuff like flash etc...08:45
MarkoKaaI understand, and I have kind same thing but my prob is games :)08:46
punknrollahh...i see08:46
punknrollmaybe i will give virtualization another try when i get my new pc because you need a real fast machine for this08:48
MarkoKaa:D Have you tried Gimp?08:49
punknrollyes, it is really not bad...but photoshop is the standard tool and i habe to use it for my job, but that wouldn't be the problem...i need flash08:51
MarkoKaak :)08:52
punknrolland i bought the whole cs2 package this year...****ing expensive;-)08:52
punknrolla few weeks ago i had the chance to talk to a salesman of adobe...he just laughed at me when i asked him if they would consider making a linux version of cs2;-)08:53
MarkoKaayep I know that, and I understand that you want that the hole package works perfectly08:53
punknrollhe said people who use linux would never spend money on software ;-)(08:53
punknrolli would...08:53
MarkoKaa:) yep I would too08:54
punknrollwhere are you from?08:56
MarkoKaaI'm from Finland, you?08:57
punknrollwell then i have to live with my windows machine....and even upgrade to vista when they released their second service pack ;-)08:59
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MarkoKaa:) yup, I'm kind sad that I can't use Linux all the time09:00
punknrolli would like my job a lot better without windows ;-)09:01
MarkoKaa:) yup me too, I'm workin in helpdesk for now and my last job was quite nice, then we had Fedoras in our computers :)09:02
punknrolli am a webdeveloper09:04
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punknrolland mulitmedia producer09:04
MarkoKaaand sadly I have to go to the army :(09:05
punknrollso i simply have to hate windows because the lousy IE brings a lot of extra work09:05
punknrollarmy? oh boy!!!09:05
MarkoKaayup in Finland all men which are over 18 years old must go to the army, min 6months09:06
punknrollhere in austria too but you can choose civilian service alternatively09:06
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MarkoKaawe have the civilian service too09:06
punknrolltha's what i did09:06
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punknrollbut you have to go for 12 month instead of 8 month army09:07
dholbachhey pitti09:07
dholbachhey jono09:07
MarkoKaaWe have to be in army "only" 6months09:07
=== dholbach hugs everybody
=== pitti hugs the channel - happy fresher's day!
MarkoKaaHappy FRIDAY :)'09:07
punknrollyeah only 6 month of wasting your time ;-)09:08
tonyyarussojono: So, what's your vision for how today will run?09:08
punknrollso if you are from finland you gotta be a friend of evil death metal?;-)09:08
MarkoKaa:) I'm exception, I don't really like death metal09:09
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punknrollwell that's nearly everything i know about people from finland...death metal folks and drinking like hell ;-)09:11
punknrolljust kidding...09:11
MarkoKaa hmm, perhaps I should to some workin here too :)09:14
MarkoKaanot just chat with you guys :)09:14
MarkoKaafortunately it's friday and it's quiet day usually09:16
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punknrollthank god it's friday09:18
punknroll...i should also do some work...i have my own company so if i don't do the job ...nobody does;-)09:18
MarkoKaawhat's your companys name?09:18
punknroll[amp] 09:19
punknrolladelsberger media productions09:19
punknrollwe amplify your business ;-)09:19
MarkoKaahttp://www.a-m-p.at | cool pages09:20
MarkoKaaI will go and drink cup of coffee :) -->09:22
punknrolli already had 3 cups....enough for this morning09:24
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=== mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [+o jono] by ChanServ
=== ..[topic/#Ubuntu-freshers:jono] : Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day! Ask anything you like about being part of the community and we will try to help!
tonyyarussojono: fwiw, I think a lot of people (members and our guests alike) are confused about today09:28
jonotonyyarusso, in what way?09:29
=== mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [+o tonyyarusso] by jono
tonyyarussojono: Whether there is any structure, who will be responding to the questions (just anyone, or do we have certain folks lined up?), why it's in a different channel, for instance.09:29
jonoright, its just an open forum essentially09:30
jonoI will write up a wiki page to outline the situation now09:30
jonomaybe with some contacts in here about certain issues09:30
tonyyarussoMeanwhile, it's 03:30 my time, so I'm going to try to get some sleep if that's quite all right ;)09:31
orpheanno sleep!09:31
tonyyarussojono: Oh, but before I go, I see you've attached this @ to my name - which brings me to another question.  Were you planning on fleshing out the access list, or just handing ops to people as you see them?09:32
jonotonyyarusso, yeah, how can I give ops to ubuntu members?09:32
tonyyarussojono: Well...the naliot*-style answer is /msg chanserv help ;)09:33
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jonowhats the tonyyarusso answer? ;)09:33
tonyyarussojono: /msg chanserv ACCESS <channel> ADD <mask> <level>09:33
tonyyarussoAnd just add lines for members and/or other entries from -classroom as you see fit.09:33
tonyyarusso(For instance, you'll note I for one still lack the cloak of +10 awesomeness)09:34
jonook I will look into it09:34
jonothanks tonyyarusso :)09:34
mneptonanyone have a breath mint?09:35
=== mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [-o tonyyarusso] by tonyyarusso
tonyyarusso(What good would it do while I'm sleeping?)09:35
=== MarkoKaa gives mnepton a breath mint
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jonoFOR UBUNTU HELPERS - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay and add your nick and what your expertise is for helping new community members09:37
=== mnepton places a pinkie at the corner of his mouth
mneptonyou're gibing me the opportunity to define my own areas of expertise?09:38
=== mnepton points to a pile of pennies.
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=== pitti taps foot and waits for mnepton's wiki lock
poningrujono: simple title change suggestion s/anything you like/anything you like (in accordance to the CoC)/ ;)09:42
jonoponingru, you mean the topic?09:43
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poningruerr yeah09:43
poningruI was half joking09:43
jonoany idea how I remove the topic lock, then we can all poke with it :)09:44
mnepton /mode #ubuntu-freshers -t09:44
=== mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [-t] by jono
=== mode/#Ubuntu-freshers [+t] by ChanServ
mneptonmodelock is on09:45
=== ..[topic/#Ubuntu-freshers:jono] : Today is Ubuntu Freshers Day! Ask anything you like about being part of the community and we will try to help! | See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay for who can help with specific questions - if you are an expert, add yourself!
=== dholbach hugs mnepton
dholbachbeing fabulous! :-)09:46
mnepton /m chanserv set #ubuntu-freshers mlock -t09:46
=== mnepton bounces
poningruI have a question09:47
poningruhow can I get in touch with newz200009:48
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jonoponingru, just ping him09:48
poningrujono: I was never able to get in touch with him for the last 2 months whenever I tried for whatever reason09:48
MatthewVso how did the 'lessons' in #ubuntu-classroom go? were they well attended?09:48
jonoMatthewV, very well :)09:49
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jonoMatthewV, its been an awesome week :)09:49
kjalilmorning all :)09:49
jonohey kjalil09:49
silwol...and all of those that I attended were really informative09:49
pittijono: indeed, it was a great idea, and great response from the world09:49
=== pitti hugs jono
MatthewVjono, thats great :) unfortunately all the lessons were in the middle of the night for me (UTC+8) so I had to miss some I really wanted to attend09:50
ImInAfricafirst timer here *blush*09:50
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jonopitti, :)09:50
mneptonImInAfrica: help yourself to the peanuts and gin09:50
jonoMatthewV, thats a shame09:50
jonothe week will be repeated :)09:51
jonoImInAfrica, hey! welcome! :)09:51
MarkoKaajono: when?09:51
mneptonMarkoKaa: UTC+12 :P09:51
jonoMarkoKaa, not sure yet :)09:51
MatthewVmnepton, NZ?09:51
ImInAfricamnepton/jono: thankz09:51
kjaliljono: yeah, me too, I had to miss most of it because of work09:51
Casanovacan anyone help me with xen here?09:52
MarkoKaaI've been watching since wednesday and I've enjoyed every bit of it :)09:52
jonoI wish the world was smaller and more predictable sometimes :P09:52
MatthewVwould it *maybe* have been a possibility to run two of each lesson, offset by 10-14 hours? or would that be too hard on those running the lessons?09:52
mneptonCasanova: you might want to /join #ubuntu or /join #xen09:52
Casanovamnepton: ok09:52
mneptonCasanova: this is not really a support channel. and things may be tough right now as much of europe and north america is asleep.09:53
kjaliljono: if the lessons were in the evenings or if the more interesting ones (subjective) were later on I could have made more of them09:53
ImInAfricai have an interesting question for the "not so newbies"09:53
MatthewVkjalil, the 'evenings' is purely subjective too09:54
Casanovamnepton: its just that i never get replies on the #ubuntu channel :(09:54
MatthewVto timezones09:54
kjalilMatthewV: lol, yea09:54
mneptonCasanova: #xen may be a better choice? is this on Edgy?09:54
Casanovamnepton: yes on edgy09:54
MatthewVImInAfrica, fire away :)09:54
ImInAfricamy boss wants me to find a *nix based solution which we can install at the office. this should have firewall,vpn,mail,etc... am i asking in the right place?09:54
MatthewVImInAfrica, you're asking a biased channel, everyone'll say ubuntu! :)09:55
mneptonCasanova: be sure to read this - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XenVirtualMachine/XenOnUbuntuEdgy09:55
=== Casanova checking...
poningruMatthewV: I would say gentoo09:55
=== poningru ducks
MatthewVponingru, ok, almost everyone ;) to be honest i'm planning to try out gentoo one of these days too ;)09:55
MatthewVbut i've been saying that since i knew what gentoo was09:56
ImInAfricaMatthewV: yes, that's why i'm here, but i have no idea how to do it09:56
poningruImInAfrica: this really isnt the channel for it09:56
mneptonImInAfrica: have you gotten yourself some CDs yet?09:56
poningruyou should try ##linux09:56
kjalilthe things that annoy me the most about ubuntu right now are wireless and external display support. is there an easy way to contribute to these or do I have to be an expert C coder?09:56
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MatthewVImInAfrica, maybe the folks in #ubuntu-server could help?09:56
ImInAfricaok thanks. will try there09:56
silwolare some of the experts here employed at canonical? I would be interested about how this works...09:56
pittisilwol: some are, yes09:57
MatthewVsilwol, jono should be able to help you there ;)09:57
mneptonsilwol: how what works? being employed? you show up, do some stuff, and then you get a paycheck. ;)09:57
jonomnepton is begrudgingly employed :P09:57
MatthewVsilwol, basically canonical has some fulltime employees who work on ubuntu and other canonical projects09:57
MatthewVor am i wrong?09:57
orpheanis this just a free-for-all or is there someone I should ask specifically to... ask. :)09:57
=== poningru is fulltime volunteer
silwoldo you "go to work" every day? is there some kind of headquarter where you attend every day?09:58
MatthewVorphean, just ask :)09:58
=== mnepton is employed solely to keep him off the streets, doing damage to good projects
Casanovamnepton: the problem i face is that I am not able to ping any machine even from dom0.. not just the VMs09:58
MatthewVsilwol, well, canonical has employees all over the world, so you mainly work over the 'net i s'pose09:58
ImInAfricathx guys. cheers09:58
silwolyeah, that's what i wanted to know.09:58
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poningrukjalil: hmm... upstream probably would be better people to ask09:59
silwolso many employees of canonical do their work at home?09:59
poningrusilwol: how it should be09:59
mneptonCasanova: yeah, you want #xen09:59
=== mnepton works in an actual office every day
mneptonbut most people do not.09:59
poningrutelecommuting ftw09:59
Casanovamnepton: I have pinged there and waiting :-) thanks anyway09:59
mneptonCasanova: bon chance!09:59
pittisilwol: yes, we meet four times a year, and otherwise use IRC/email/telephone/hugging10:00
kjalilponingru: well i'm asking since this is freshers and I basically know *nothing* about how ubuntu works in the background. i don't know what upstream is10:00
=== mnepton jumps up and down on pitti
poningrukjalil: right sorry10:00
silwolwow, i am really astonished that this works that well10:00
=== pitti hugs mnepton ecstatically
poningrukjalil: upstream is basically any project ubuntu draws 'stuff' from10:00
poningrukjalil: for example we get our kernel from the linux kernel people10:01
mneptonsilwol: if you ever met me in person you would run screaming in panic to buy a Mac >:)10:01
poningruour desktop from gnome10:01
poningruour browser from mozilla10:01
poningruso all these are upstream10:01
poningruone set of upstream is driver developers10:01
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MarkoKaaguys what is good scp program to Ubuntu, in Windows I use Winscp10:01
kjalilponingru: ok, i'm with you so far. so this is a group of people who get stuff from somewhere else and this group is called 'upstream'?10:02
silwolmnepton: i don't think so. i still hope about every person i meet that they have good personal qualities ;)10:02
pittiMarkoKaa: 'scp' :)10:02
pittiMarkoKaa: but if you want something graphical, why not just use Nautilus?10:02
pittiMarkoKaa: Places -> Network-Server10:02
mneptonsilwol: if you imagine Ubuntu being somewhat like a car. the badge says "Ford," but without "Mrs. Frumpitty's Auto Glass Fabrication" there would be no windows. and if you have a problem with window quality, eventually Ford contacts Mrs. Frumpitty.10:02
poningrukjalil: its not a group perse... we just take their stuff since they release it under a certain license (GPL)10:02
MarkoKaapitti: thanks ;)10:02
poningrukjalil: like they dont have a group meeting or anything10:02
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MatthewVmnepton, nice metaphor :)10:02
poningruthey are all independent of each other10:03
pittiMarkoKaa: even a shell junkie like me uses it sometimes, it's pretty convenient for browsing10:03
mneptonsilwol: it's kinda the same with Ubuntu and GNOME/KDE/Mozilla, except in this case you can easily contact GNOME/KDE/Mozilla yourself. when they make changes, those filter down into Ubuntu.10:03
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MarkoKaaI'm concerned, I'm in windows and I opened cmd ant typed nano style.css....10:04
silwolyeah, mnepton. thanks for the infos so far.10:04
kjalilponingru: ok, wait. they are independent of ubuntu and canonical?10:04
mneptonMarkoKaa: got Cygwin? ;)10:04
MatthewVMarkoKaa, try 'sudo apt-get install nano' that should fix it :P10:04
poningrukjalil: yes10:04
mneptonkjalil: exactly10:04
pittiMarkoKaa: yeah, after a while, this windows shell really sucks, doesn't it? :)10:04
=== silwol has another question... about packaging and software development
pittisilwol: just ask, don't ask to ask10:04
mneptonkjalil: Red Hat, SuSE, Gentoo, OpenBSD, and tons of others also use GNOME and/or KDE as their desktop environments.10:05
poningrukjalil: for example 99% of the software we ship is not created by ubuntu10:05
MatthewVMarkoKaa, pitti win98 shell is much much worse.. no tab completion or command history10:05
kjalilponingru: ok so where is their website and info about what they are currently working on?10:05
poningrukjalil: each package should have its own contact info10:05
kjalilponingru: ah, you're simply talking about other linux projects that ubuntu integrates10:05
MarkoKaamnepton nope I don't have cygwin :)10:05
MatthewVkjalil, for example, gnome is at http://www.gnome.org/10:05
kjalilponingru: by calling it upstream you confused me completely10:05
silwolif i write a piece of python software, say something with a gtk frontend, does it make sense to keep a debian/ subdir in my dev tree to provide basic packaging abilities?10:05
poningrukjalil: no for example firefox... that has nothing to do with any linux people10:06
MatthewVkjalil, think of it as a stream, stuff upstream ends up downstream ;)10:06
kjalilponingru: it was as if upstream was something special specific to ubuntu10:06
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poningrukjalil: nope not specific to ubuntu at all10:06
mneptongiving Windows a shell is like giving your grandmother a breast enlargement. it's not gonna make her more sexy, and no *way* i'll look at it.10:06
pittisilwol: there might be different opinions, but as a Debian/Ubuntu packager I generally dislike upstream tarballs containing debian/10:06
poningruthey just have their software/driver/app/whatever availble to everyone under a certain license (mostly GPL)10:07
kjalilponingru: ok so these projects are outside ubuntu scope anyway and have their own release times, etc10:07
poningruand everyone can use that10:07
poningrukjalil: yep10:07
pittisilwol: mainly because they break the clean separation of upstream bits in the orig.tar.gz and packaging bits in the diff.gz, so reading diff.gz, upgrading to new upstream versions etc. is painful and produces conflicts10:07
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pittisilwol: also, it won't be useful for RPM-based distros10:07
poningrukjalil: like linux kernel just came out with 2.6.19 and we are not going to incorporate that into a release at all10:07
pitti^ well, feisty currently has 2.6.1910:08
poningruwe are gonna use their next one 2.6.20 in our next release (feisty fawn)10:08
kjalilponingru: ok, so going back to the original question, if I want to improve wireless support, i have to talk to the NetworkManager or ipw devs for example?10:08
silwoland if i want to release the package for a small target group (in this particular example some of my collegues), how do i usually keep the packaging information?10:08
pittibut it'll get .20 eventually10:08
silwolor better: where10:08
poningrukjalil: precisely10:08
pittisilwol: 3 possibilities10:08
pittisilwol: if it's really just useful for your colleagues and it doesn't make sense to officially put into distros, just keep it all in one place10:09
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poningrukjalil: so it depends on which driver you wanna work at10:09
pittisilwol: (2) maintain the upstream bits in revision control, do releases, and separately maintain a source package10:09
kjalilponingru: this isn't very useful, for example sometimes when I resume my laptop from standy it doesn't automatically connect to wireless, so who do I talk to about that? NetworkManager, GNOME, or ipw? or kernel devs?10:09
poningrukjalil: the best thing you can actually do for that kinda stuff is call up the company and annoy them to release information10:09
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mneptonsilwol: personally, i think the most important piece for wifi right now is adding (n)curses WPA/WPA2 config tools for wpa_supplicant. this would allow WPA/WPA2 configuration from a CLI, and at install time.10:10
poningrukjalil: actually that would be ubuntu's domain of control10:10
pittisilwol: (3) create an ubuntu branch of your main dev branch which adds the packaging information; then you regularly merge from the upstream branch10:10
poningrukjalil: file a bug on that in bugs.ubuntu.com10:10
orpheanIf you're really into the Gnome project and trying to get more involved, use Ubuntu, and would like to help Ubuntu out with something like Gnome is it possible to help in any capacity directly related to the project in mind?  Or does one rather have to go through MOTU first and then get moved in since that's a core element of ubuntu?10:10
pittisilwol: (3) is admittedly the most elegant solution, but might be a bit overkill for you10:10
kjalilponingru: ok, this happens in ubuntu only, and I would like to see it fixed.10:10
kjalilponingru: ah, ok10:10
silwolpitti: it's all about practice ;)10:10
poningrukjalil: yeah and keep track of that bug... as in devs will ask you question or ask you to run a certain scenario with your laptop etc.10:11
pittisilwol: I'd recommend (3), since bzr makes this all really easy, and it is a good idea to get used to it because it scales really well10:11
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poningruand it would be good if you can answer them back10:11
kjalilponingru: also, external display support is horrid and the ATI driver crashes my window manager sometimes. for all these I should file a bug?10:11
mneptonorphean: if GNOME is your interest then you should get involved with the GNOME Project, not Ubuntu. the stuff you do there will trickle down.10:11
poningrukjalil: hmm yeah but for those I doubt filing a bug would do you any good10:11
silwolpitti: where do i find information about how to create a package in a clean way?10:12
kjalilponingru: they are not easily reproducible though.10:12
pittisilwol: 'in a clean way'?10:12
poningrukjalil: your best bet would be to annoy the companies themselves about releasing information regarding their hardware10:12
pittisilwol: you mean how to create a source package based on a piece of upstream software?10:12
orpheanmnepton, ok, i'm already involved with Gnome just wanted to see if there was any option to help on the ubuntu side since its the distro I use. thanks for the heads up.10:12
silwolyes, that's what i mean10:13
kjalilponingru: yeah how do I find out if someone is doing something about them for example is anyone going to make it easy to plug external devices into my laptop? is someone working on it? can I help them somehow?10:13
poningrulike call up ati and tell them to give out information about their gpus10:13
poningrukjalil: for that kinda stuff you have to seek out the project10:13
poningrugoogle is your friend10:13
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kjalilponingru: Xorg in that case?10:13
poningruhmm actually not sure about that10:14
mneptonorphean: Ubuntu tries hard not to delta too much from upstream. the GNOME changes we do are usually "trivial" (for certain definitions of "trivial")10:14
poningruguys who would you help with ati drivers?10:14
pittisilwol: there are various tutorials, but http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ is still the standard reference10:14
poningrukjalil: see xorg would be a good starting point I guess... but different projects work on drivers10:14
poningrulike nvidia drivers are being done by a group called noveaue or something like that10:15
poningrusomeone wanna correct that name ^^^10:15
pittisilwol: also take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips10:15
silwolpitti: okay, i'll try the maintainer (once again...), but up to now there was always a point where i got stuck... may i ping you if i need some help?10:15
pittisilwol: sure10:15
silwolokay, great thanks so far, pitti10:16
pittisilwol: *hug* :)10:16
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poningrukjalil: see http://support.ati.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=894&surveyID=508&type=web10:17
poningruhow to annoy ati10:17
kjalilponingru: this is frustrating10:17
silwoloh, pitti, what i forgot: if i have the project on launchpad (and I have, since kiko's classroom session yesterday ;) ), do i also keep the branch with packaging information on launchpad? simply in a separate bzr branch?10:18
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kjalilponingru: the only things I can think of that keep me from using linux more are good video support and wireless support. but I don't see a way to change that10:18
poningrukjalil: what kinda wifi card do you have?10:19
jonohey Seveas10:19
pittisilwol: right, that's what I meant; call your upstream branch 'main' or so, and call the packaging branch 'ubuntu'10:19
silwolokay, thanks a lot.10:19
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pittisilwol: please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrMaintainerHowto for that10:19
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kjalilponingru: 2.5 years old laptop with ipw2200. it works almost 95% of the time, but sometimes it doesn't and I have to unload/reload the driver modules.10:19
pittisilwol_afk: that's how we maintain some packages in Ubuntu now, very convenient10:19
silwol_afkokay, thanks a lot.10:20
pittisilwol_afk: and we can then link your ubuntu branch to the package if it gets uploaded to ubuntu10:20
kjalilponingru: also suspend to disk was not broken, but is now broken10:20
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=== silwol_afk now has many more bookmarks in the ubuntu folder
poningruthats def ubuntu bug10:20
pittisilwol_afk: happy branching then :)10:20
silwol_afkpitti: i hope i will be glad with it10:21
poningrukjalil: one good thing about launchpad is that it will allow people to say " this isnt ubuntu specific bug this driver/module/program/thing is atfault we should tell them about it"10:21
poningrukjalil: so filing a bug in bugs.ubuntu.com is probably the best way10:22
poningruoh and launchpad == how ubuntu handles bugs10:22
kjalilponingru: one thing I would like a simple answer to, is all this going to work in the next release? i guess nobody really knows10:22
poningruright no one really knows unless you test10:22
poningruthe best thing you can do for that is10:23
poningruwhen different pre-releases comes out you should install that and test10:23
poningrukjalil: like what I do is I have a partition specifically setup for ubuntu devel10:23
kjalilponingru: is there a way to see what is going on in the background on a day-to-day basis so I will be more informed of current affairs and what the goals are, etc?10:23
poningruuh... you better ask one of these guys for that...10:24
poningruanyone wanna answer that^^^10:24
kjalilponingru: like a mailing list or discussion area where I can see where the project is headed daily and what the problems are etc10:24
poningrukjalil: I guess ubuntu-devel mailing list is good for that10:25
poningrubut please do not email that list10:25
poningrualso #ubuntu-devel is a good place to hang out for that kinda stuff10:25
poningruor just watch some of the heavy hitters in launchpad like benc, dholbach etc.10:26
poningruerr not sure if launchpad has 'watching' feature yet10:26
kjalilponingru: would they be discussing issues with external displays, wireless and suspend to disk over there? i really want to know where those things are going10:26
poningrukjalil: yes that would be some of the issues they will be dealing with10:26
MarkoKaakjalil you mean wireles ass wlan?10:26
poningruMarkoKaa: or freudian slip?10:27
kjalilMarkoKaa: lol yes10:27
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MarkoKaaall my wlan cards are ahve worked fine in Ubuntu, but in Kubuntu my wlan card does't work so well10:28
kjalilMarkoKaa: my centrino laptop wireless works fine but just occasionally craps out. i want to make it work 100%. what do I do?10:28
kjalilMarkoKaa: i think it's a closed driver issue so I don't think I can ask too much :(10:28
MarkoKaaI have same prob in Kubuntu with my Acers wireless, solution: I don't have :(10:28
MarkoKaaWith Ubuntu it works much better10:29
kjalilMarkoKaa: it's strange though. why it works much better for me in Kubuntu or even Suse for 2 years but in Ubuntu GNOME it's not that reliable. it's very strange issue10:29
kjalilMarkoKaa: it can't be the drivers in that case10:29
MarkoKaaYup, I agree10:30
kjalilMarkoKaa: it is something that GNOME is messing up10:30
kjalilMarkoKaa: all these little things stop people from using linux. they *must* be fixed10:30
poningrukjalil: yeah most def in that case file a bug in bugs.ubuntu.com10:30
MarkoKaaIn ubuntu 5.04 in my D-link wireless worked fine trough ndiswrapper10:30
poningruMarkoKaa: unacceptable10:31
kjalili don't want extra features, just pay some people to fix thses issues once and for all, like a six month deathmarch :)10:32
kjalilso just in six months linux will be much more viable10:32
=== poningru goes off to sleep
poningrunn guys10:33
poningruhave fun10:33
kjalilponingru: thanks10:33
MarkoKaahmm.. I've been at work 2.5hours for now, and I haven't done anythinf10:35
pittiMarkoKaa: see, that's how Ubuntu increases your productiv... erm10:36
pitti... fun! :)10:36
MarkoKaa:) this OpenWeek degreases my productivity :)10:36
MarkoKaawell my boss don't know about this :)10:37
=== mnepton hears "grease" and unidles
kjalilare most people here asleep right now?10:38
poningruhehe np10:38
MarkoKaaI don't know :D10:38
poningruin the US10:38
MarkoKaaIn Finland time is 11.38 am :D10:38
poningruwell I am off to bed for real this time10:39
mneptonneed grease?10:39
punknrollsame time here in austria10:41
MarkoKaaDamn, I runned out of Coke10:42
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blufoxfabbione, i found a bug in heartbeat-2 package for ubuntu ... and fixed it too. Whom should i send bug fix to?10:45
yasoIn inda time is 3:15pm ;)10:46
fabbioneblufox: file a bug with a patch attached10:46
yasodude, Is there any way to make apt cache directory to cd's10:48
yasoeverytime i need to download the packages10:48
blufoxfabbione, franklly i am into this bug fixing thing for ubuntu for the first time...sorry to ask but i am confused with so many bug lists:(10:48
fabbioneblufox: it's no problem.. just go to launchpad, search for the package, explain the bug and attach the fix10:49
fabbioneblufox: it's the easiest way to track stuff10:49
yasoany suggesion !!10:50
blufoxthanks fabbione ,shall do that. How can i contribute to ubuntu heartbeat project as a developer ?10:50
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fabbioneblufox: well bug fixing and testing is a good start. Another thing is to make sure each bug you find that is not ubuntu related, will be pushed upstream10:51
fabbioneblufox: that way we reduce the overhead and contribute to upstream that will later flow back to us10:51
blufoxfabbione, i cross checked with heartbeat developers , IIRC they deny any such bug in heartbeat package and suggested its an ubuntu bug :(10:52
fabbioneblufox: ok, then please file the bug. i have no way to know the problem if you don't add the details10:53
blufoxsure fabbione ,may be its just some missed out nifty detail in package or whatever but i ll file the bug and fix too :)10:54
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kjalilok, is all of launchpad for ubuntu only or is there a  ubuntu-specific launchpad10:56
dholbachponingru: or seb12810:56
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blufoxfabbione, i cant submit the bug :(10:57
blufoxfabbione, it says "Heartbeat does not use Malone as its bug tracker."10:57
fabbioneblufox: you are filing the bug to the wrong url10:58
fabbionestart there10:58
fabbioneor you said hearbeat-210:59
snailQUESTION: I'm a (mono-lingual english-speaking) developer packaging a program that is written and documented in english, but has a target users particularly in C/J/K. What concrete steps can I take to make life easier for me, easier for the translators and better for the users?10:59
fabbioneso https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/heartbeat-210:59
blufoxfabbione, heartbeat-2 i mean ..:)11:00
fabbionewell use the second url11:01
blufoxfabbione, done11:06
blufoxfabbione, how can i contribute to ubuntu as a kernel developer?11:06
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fabbioneblufox: it depends how much you know about the kernel11:09
mneptonsnail: is this app targetted at Ubuntu specifically, a particular DM, or OS?11:10
fabbioneblufox: what kind of work do you plan to do?11:10
blufoxfabbione, i have worked on misc kernel hacking, SCSI vrtualization , USB subsystem and would like to explore networking subsystem :)11:11
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blufoxfabbione, please read that as virtualization11:12
fabbioneblufox: you want to talk to BenC and kylem in #ubuntu-kernel when they will be awake in a few hours11:12
mneptonoy Seveas11:13
blufoxfabbione, any ubuntu project i need to join to be eligible to contribute to ubuntu kernel?11:14
fabbionejust contribute and talk to them on how11:14
mneptonblufox: my PayPal address is ... >:)11:14
blufoxmnepton, ...gigz ...thanks for that though ..lol :D11:15
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Seveasblufox, you have to learn to ignore mnepton. His mind is where we store all crazyness11:16
blufoxSeveas, shall try :)11:17
mneptonnonsense. utter nonsense.11:17
Seveasmnepton, yes, we store the nonsense there as well11:17
Seveasthanks for the correction11:17
mneptonnow, when i re-assume the Jade Throne and reclaim you all as my slaves, Seveas shall pay.11:17
mneptonuntil then ... anyone got some spare change?11:17
SeveasI have $0,93 left from the US11:17
mneptonis that enough to purchase your immortal soul?11:18
Seveasoh, that's been sold already11:18
=== fabbione prepares the cage to close mnepton again.. sorry for leaving him out
mneptongah, day late and US$0.93 short *again*11:18
Seveasfabbione, grazie11:18
mneptonfabbione: as if you have any power over me at all ...11:19
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punknrollbye guys11:20
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juliuxhm perhaps somebody can ban him?11:24
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Seveasjuliux, it seems solved now11:25
juliuxSeveas, yes11:25
blufoxthanks a lot fabbione :)11:25
blufoxbye all11:25
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Seveas51 people and no questions :)12:02
mattli've got a question.12:03
elkbuntuask away :)12:03
mattlWhat does open source mean to you?12:03
elkbuntuit means that i can do things that i would otherwise would not be able to do.12:03
dholbachponies! :-)12:04
elkbuntuand huggles!12:04
=== elkbuntu huggles dholbach
=== dholbach hugs elkbuntu
elkbuntumattl, what does it mean to you?12:04
juliuxmattl, that is opensource;12:04
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mattlopen source.. i'm never entirely sure what i can do with stuff. i know there's a definition, but lots of stuff is claimed to be 'open source' when it doesn't meet the guidelines.12:05
Corbeauxwhat are the guidelines?12:07
Corbeauxopensource != free12:07
mneptonfree != pony :(12:07
mattlSee, the reason I choose to say 'free software', is that I think there's a clearly defined idea of what free software is, and that it chooses to make an ethical choice, over functionality.12:08
Corbeauxgtg bbl :(12:09
elkbuntui've never been a fan of the usage of the word 'free'12:09
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pittimattl: essentially, free software is a subset of open source12:10
elkbuntuthere's enough ambiguities in communication, especially digital communication, without putting philosophy and language against each other12:11
pittimattl: i. e. 'open source' is just what it says, source code is available for inspection12:11
pittimattl: but the term 'Open Source' does not imply any license model12:11
mattlthat's why it's a meaningless term, imo.12:11
pittimattl: whereas free software has clear requirements on the license, and implies openness of source code12:11
pittimattl: not totally meanlingless, but largely irrelevant for users, right12:12
mattlpitti: free software doesn't imply openness of code, it provides the four freedoms.12:12
pittipalski: right, these are roughly equivalent to Debian's DFSG (in fact, they took Debian's definition as a basis)12:13
pittimattl: DFSG terms and above definition of Free software require openness of source code12:13
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=== pitti bows to the King of England
=== KingOfEngland knights pitti
KingOfEnglandRise, *Sir* pitti12:14
mattlpitti: don't they require that you are free to modify, distribute and study the code, and to distribute modified versions?12:14
pittimattl: 'require that you are free to distribute' is too weak and doesn't actually require anything :)12:15
Admiral_Chicagoelkbuntu: why don't you like "free" melissa12:15
Admiral_Chicagoah i see not using languague as a weapon12:15
=== mnepton sends thousands of naked, blue Picts into KingOfEngland's kitchen
elkbuntuAdmiral_Chicago, i've already stated. the ambiguity of the term. it's also complicated when the philosophy gets translated.12:16
pittimattl: it's from an user's POV; whenever you get a piece of free software, you must be able to get the source12:16
mattlpitti: how so? if i have some free software, modify it.. i'm free to distribute it, but i don't have to..12:16
Admiral_Chicagowell i understand that, but free does not always mean open source12:16
pittimattl: but if you distribute it, you have to provide the source code12:16
Admiral_Chicagotake a look at the BSD license.12:17
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pittiAdmiral_Chicago: that of course depends on your definition of free software12:17
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Admiral_Chicagopitti: i use the free as in beer, free as in speech12:17
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PriceChildHey all12:17
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=== mattl uses free as in freedom.
pittiAdmiral_Chicago: yeah, the old ambiguity :)12:18
elkbuntuAdmiral_Chicago, free as in speech doesnt apply everywhere in the world, unfortunately12:18
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Admiral_Chicagoi don't believe in the BSD license, I believe in the GPL method as of downstream being free as well12:19
mattlI wonder why nobody's relicensed BSD under the GPL yet.12:19
pittimattl: how do you mean? only the copyright holder can do that12:19
Admiral_Chicagoelkbuntu: yes it doesn't exist in every place of the world but i believe it should and I don't believe in restrictive licenses for that reason. you can't limit freedom in some areas and not others12:20
pittiand it wouldn't make much sense once the software is available under bsd12:20
elkbuntuAdmiral_Chicago, im not saying the terms of the licence are changed by it, but in terms of defining something, using speech as an example is not translatable12:21
mattlif i can take BSD licensed code and put it under a proprietary license, why can't i take it and put it under the GPL?12:21
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Admiral_Chicagoah i understand your point and it is a good point12:22
pittimattl: " Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright12:22
pitti*       notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer."12:22
pittimattl: IANAL, but this seems to be the reason12:22
mattli think it's an interesting area to consider though.12:22
mattli'd like to see more and more BSD code come under the GPLv3 umbrella.12:22
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pittimattl: oh, wait, it actually seems to be possible to do that12:23
pittimattl: but what would that buy you?12:23
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jonomaybe its better to spend our time making better software than having pointless license debates? ;)12:23
mneptonjono: heresy!12:24
=== pitti agrees
KingOfEnglandjono: Licenses are important in terms of things remaining free though, the FSF sound rabid at times but they ensure our long term freedom12:24
mattlpitti: the guarantee that people who received a copy wouldn't be able to have their freedom away?12:24
pittimattl: no, since it's still available as bsd12:24
mattlpitti: not of my version.12:24
mattljono: there needs to be a #write-code channel, in which you can only talk in C.12:25
mneptonif all the hot air expended in open source licensing debates were to disappear the world would experience another ice age.12:25
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jonoKingOfEngland, they are important, but *way* too much time is spent on pointless license discussion - free software will never rule if we spend too much time directing our efforts on the wrong things12:25
mattlCorbeaux: hah, you joined! ;)12:25
=== pitti goes back to fixing network-manager
Corbeauxlol @matti12:25
jonomattl, I don't want to limit the discussion, I just wish our community would direct its efforts better12:26
Corbeauxbreakfast was good12:26
=== mnepton tootles off to make cocoa
mattljono: i agree.12:26
KingOfEnglandjono: What do you mean by 'rule' ? Why is the level of market adoption such an important goal? I'd much rather have code that does stuff I want but is free than to compromise on the freedom, hence the freedom should be the primary issue12:26
=== mattl agrees with KingOfEngland
Admiral_Chicagojono: i disagree, i've learned a lot about licenses listening to RMS talk, just like I've leaned a lot about the Ubuntu community form Jeff Waugh's speech12:26
mattlwhat's more important? 1 user with free software, or 10 with some free software and some non-free software?12:27
jonoI am not saying we should discuss licenses -  but I would like to see the people who talk about licenses all the time actually spend some time also making free software better12:27
KingOfEnglandjono: So the FSF / GNU project don't make any software then?12:27
jonoI don't find endless license debates, which are repeated over and over with no outcome as particularly productive use of our time12:27
=== KingOfEngland throws away GCC
jonoKingOfEngland, did I say FSF or GNU?12:27
jonono I didnt12:27
KingOfEnglandjono: You said people who talk about licenses all the time, so I think that covers the FSF and GNU pretty well - in fact they're the best example12:28
jonoI am talking about people who endlessly debate licenses without helping make free software better12:28
jonoI don't include RMS here12:28
KingOfEnglandLicenses ensure free software exists!12:28
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elkbuntuwhat jono's getting at..i believe.. is that it would nice if people could manage to walk the walk *as well as* talk the talk12:28
jonoKingOfEngland, of course, but software is more important than licenses12:28
jonoelkbuntu, exactly12:28
KingOfEnglandjono: but software without the right license is not free, so you have to have the license as the primary thing12:28
Corbeauxthere are different ways to help, some of us cannot code but can write documentation or ilcenses :p12:29
SeveasKingOfEngland, a license with no software is useless12:29
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highvoltagelicenses is pretty much useless if you don't have software to license it under :)12:29
KingOfEnglandOK, I think we can all agree you need both12:29
jayteeukjono: I agree with you about the lack of outcome, which essentially means all the debate is a big waste of time... but we can create all the best software in the world, but it'll be no use to anyone if they can't actually use it. :)12:29
mattlCorbeaux: if you want to help, we're always looking for more webmasters :)12:29
KingOfEnglandall I am saying is that when you veer away from a free license your software ceases to be free12:29
jonoKingOfEngland, sure, and a license is important - but that why I want to see the license discussed as relative to the importance of the software - to me, a license is critical, but its 90% less interesting than having good software that people can use12:29
mneptonKingOfEngland: i think proper automobile safety is extremyl important. it is an issue that must be discussed, and must evolve to meet changing needs. but at the end of the day, *i'm not an automotive engineer*. my time is best spent providing useful feedback to the automobile industry as a consumer.12:29
Seveasmnepton, or learn to build cars12:30
mneptonSeveas: would *you* drive a car i built?12:30
Corbeauxwebmastering never interested me, i cannot code. I like setting up some software once then trying something else.12:30
elkbuntuSeveas, he'd build a sparkly pink one12:30
mattlmnepton: or educating other car users about safety?12:30
Seveasmnepton, no way :)12:30
Admiral_Chicagoit takes a very different person to understand the nuasces of licensing, much like it takes a different person to understand the subtlety of hacking up code, or building a community12:31
Seveasbut there are billions of orher people ;)12:31
mneptonmattl: i would not be "educating" from an informed POV, since *i am not an automotive engineer*12:31
jonoI just wish some of the people who treasure freedom so rigourously would actually help the free software effort - debating licenses all day and rehashing RMSs views are not productive IMHO12:31
KingOfEnglandThats a very short term way of looking at things though, if we don't constantly stay on our guard to ensure things remain free then in 10 years you won't be able to write free software because it will have been made illegal, writing code will be impossible from patents, and you will be running in a TPM sandbox12:31
Corbeauxmnepton: i wouldn't try to build a car myself especially not when there are so many others who are much better at it. Not sure if they can drive as well as I can though12:31
Admiral_Chicagoin the end of the day, we all must play to our streghts to build something phenomenal12:31
mattlmnepton: i wouldn't say you'd need to be.12:31
jonoKingOfEngland, I don't mind people who talk licensing - so long as they improve the licenses or the way the licenses are used12:31
KingOfEnglandHowever maligned the license people are, they're like the guidance system on a rocket - sure the rocket people want to make it go faster - but just going 'up' doesnt help much if you veer back down again later on12:31
jonobloggers who bang on about licensing with no productive outcome are who I am talking aobut12:32
KingOfEnglandjono: They're increasing awareness12:32
jonoKingOfEngland, rubbish12:32
KingOfEnglandjono: !12:32
Admiral_Chicagojono: you spend too much time on the blogosphere :)12:32
jonoKingOfEngland, awareness is not talking about the issue12:32
mneptonmattl: i would say that if you propose to "educate" people on any subject, you need to be "educated" in that subject. and "having an opinion" != "educated"12:32
KingOfEnglandjono: Next time I want to blog something I'll get your approval that it is a worthwhile post!12:32
jonoawareness is making things more accessible12:32
jonoKingOfEngland, I never said that12:32
=== mattl wants a tshirt that says 'fuck teh blogosphere!!1'
KingOfEnglandjono: You made a blanket statement about bloggers talking about licenses12:32
elkbuntuyou can go blue in the face talking about licencing, you could write this uber awesome licence that is loophole free and makes for certain that even the martians would have freedoms, but that's no use if it's not actually *used* on anything12:33
=== KingOfEngland activates the blog-o-matic
jonoKingOfEngland, my point is that I would love to see this endless debate about licensing result in better education about licenses - I have seen a lot of debate, but not seen the licensing situation get any better or easier to understand12:33
mattlelkbuntu: i don't think need more licenses. i think we need less licenses.12:33
KingOfEnglandelkbuntu: Yes but society needs people with different interests and skills, some people are really interested in licenses so they make them, others want to write software but not licenses, and so on12:33
mneptonKingOfEngland: reductio ad absurdum is a cheap tactic from someone that puts themselves forth as an erudite and educated voice of software licensing issues ;)12:33
KingOfEnglandTo suggest they are exclusive pursuits is ridiculous12:33
SeveasMatthewV, indeed12:33
=== Admiral_Chicago writes a license to protect software on a toaster
mattlAdmiral_Chicago: GPL will do that for you.12:34
KingOfEnglandmnepton: Reductio ad absurdum is an entirely reasonable way of showing the flaws in someones reasoning ;-)12:34
jonoanyway, debating the merits of debating is as equally unproductive :P12:34
jonoI am going back to work :)12:34
Seveasgood call12:34
Admiral_Chicagomattl: i was joking12:34
mattljono: ping me next time you're on a break.12:34
Seveasno point in wasting time here12:34
jonomattl, cool stuff :)12:34
elkbuntuand that's precisely the point ;)12:34
mattlis there anyone here, who would like to write code, but can't?12:35
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Corbeauxme :)12:35
PriceChildmattl me12:35
KingOfEnglandmattl: Does FSF need any Visual Basic coders? I'm really hot on VB312:35
=== Corbeaux is limited to simple bash scripts :(
PriceChildI'll get round to it one day... :)12:35
elkbuntumattl, can, but cbf. i do community stuff instead12:35
nate599though not for any practical use. just to pass some time and try something new12:36
Admiral_Chicagomy last few words on this: I've convinced people to leave their propriety machines because of the restrictive licensing and switch to Ubuntu, i don't see how being knowledgeable about diferent licenses is limiting in anyway12:36
elkbuntuannoying people is much more fun than coding12:36
jonojust clarify one point - when I say help free software, I don't specifically mean coding- I mean docs, marketing, art or anything else12:36
jonoright I really am going back to work now... :P12:36
jonohave fun peeps :)12:36
jayteeukttfn jono12:37
PriceChild"helping"!!! elkbuntu12:37
Seveashave fun Lord Bacon12:37
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Admiral_Chicagogeneral question: what does documentation involve?12:40
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snailAdmiral_Chicago: writing, proofing, translating and testing man pages, wiki pages and html pages12:41
Admiral_Chicagosnail: ah okay i see12:42
Admiral_Chicagoi've helped on some wiki pages but that's all12:42
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bakerthello out there in ubuntu land12:43
nate599top o' the morning12:44
bakertSo, I've got a community question.12:45
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elkbuntubakert, ask away :)12:45
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bakertI'm a programmer.  I use Ubuntu on my laptop.  I'm not a C programmer.  But I have up to 7 years experience of Java, Python, Ruby, Lisp, Perl, etc.12:45
elkbuntu"dont ask to ask, just ask"12:45
mneptonbakert: i'm a Gemini. i like cuddling, long walks on the beach, and ponies.12:46
=== apokryphos- is now known as apokryphos
bakertWhat should I be doing/can I do to contribute?12:46
bhalemnepton: i also like cuddling and ponies!12:46
bhalemnepton: asl?12:46
bakertI've made about 3 notes on some bugs in launchpad but that's about the size of it.12:46
bakertWhat's next?12:46
Seveasbhale, mnepton: get a room12:46
mneptonbhale: ageless/neuter/right behind you12:46
=== elkbuntu kicks mnepton and bhale into the closet.
Seveasbakert, what do you like to do?12:47
elkbuntubakert, have you been using Linux long?12:47
bhaleyou guys are no fun.12:47
mneptonbakert: what do you enjoy doing? like, what kind of work?12:47
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Corbeauxa/s/l everyone12:47
elkbuntuSeveas, where's ubugtu? I'm feeling this really strong desire to lart people.12:48
Corbeaux12/m/next to chavez12:48
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bakertI like writing programs.  I guess something with a UI over something hidden in the depths.  But any program.  I was only a very casual Linux user until I switched to it on my laptop nearly a year ago.12:48
effie_jayxCorbeaux,  colombia?12:48
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mnepton?lart elkbuntu12:49
ubuntoidmnepton: Error: There are no larts in my database for #Ubuntu-freshers.12:49
mnepton?insult elkbuntu12:49
ubuntoidelkbuntu - You are nothing but a hacked-up bag of impure snake.12:49
Seveasmnepton, please remove that bot12:49
pittibakert: we have quite a few desktop applications that are written in python12:49
mneptonroger that12:49
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Admiral_Chicagobakert: you may be helpful with patch work12:50
bakertpitti, yes i've seen a strong favouring of python.  it's what i write in my day job (90% of the time).  not my favourite language but plenty good enough to hack about in.12:50
pittibakert: if you particularly like one of them and want to work on it, that'd be highly appreciated, for example12:50
bakertAdmiral_Chicago, what's patch work?12:50
pittibakert: but you really shouldn't select things by language, rather select apps/fields you like12:50
Seveasbakert, fixing bugs12:50
pittibakert: e. g. we have lots of things to do that don't involve any coding at all12:50
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Admiral_Chicagowell if there is a problem in the code, you fix the bug, make a patch and send it upstream (to the developer that you got the app from)12:51
pittibakert: (bug triage, translation, testing, documentation, packaging, etc.)12:52
bakertSo where's the work queue?  Where do I go to pick up a small-ish task to try on for size?  Launchpad?12:52
Admiral_Chicagoyes that too, as pitti, i've been doing a lot of of bug triage myself12:52
pittibakert: we do not organize stuff in queues12:52
bakertThe trouble with bug triage is because I am not a Unix guru (believe me, I sit with two all day and they make me feel dumb!)12:52
pittibakert: we use Launchpad to track bugs and specifications12:52
bakertI think that my comments probably won't be useful12:52
apokryphosWill Ubuntu *ever* be BiArch compatible? This is one thing that gets to me a little, since some other distros have had it for absolutely ages.12:52
Admiral_Chicagobakert: i'm not a guru at all, I've been using for about a year as wel12:52
bhaleapokryphos: question for tollef.12:52
bhaleMithrandir rather12:52
apokryphosThere was a lot of hype for this, for Edgy+Smart, but that seems to have all died down and gone quietly into the distance. Though I agree with what most people are saying -- these changes need to be into dpkg12:52
pittibakert: i. e. look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs -> new stuff, or https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs -> bugs12:53
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bhaleapokryphos: ..question for mvo12:53
pittibakert: I think those two are our main 'queues'12:53
apokryphosbhale: thanks; dang, not around.12:53
apokryphosbhale: yeah, he was doing the smart stuff. Must ask him what happened to it.12:53
pittibakert: we also discussed maintaining a list of bite-sized easy tasks for starters12:53
pittibakert: since these two systems (bugs/specs) are really overwhelming for new folks12:53
pittibakert: so far your best bet is really to choose what you would like to do, ask in the devel channel, and then get in contact with someone who already works on that area12:54
pittibakert: or, if noone is working on it already, someone who can guide you12:54
Admiral_Chicagobakert: i can show you some work i've done on LP mysely that might give you a sense about haw you can help12:56
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apokryphosand I am kidding ;-). Xchat is a pretty nice scriptable IRC client12:58
apokryphosfar better than konversation, even if it isn't as pretty12:58
apokryphosbut I still prefer xchat. It works just as I want it to.12:58
=== apokryphos just realised that was all in the wrong channel :)
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Admiral_Chicagoapokryphos: i've heard that about Konversation as well but it is still in version 1.0.12:59
apokryphoskonversation has too much legacy code at the moment which is blocking out a lot of the configurability/proper-scripting that you'd want to do12:59
apokryphosapparently this will be sorted for kde412:59
bakertAdmiral_Chicago, what's LP?01:00
bakertpitti, thanks for your advice01:00
Admiral_Chicagogood, i really like it, it works for me01:00
Admiral_Chicagobakert: launchpad01:00
bakertAdmiral_Chicago, yes please that would be good01:00
Admiral_Chicagogive me a sec to find some good ones01:00
apokryphosAdmiral_Chicago: as an average users' IRC client I'd probably recommend it first, most certainly. Just if you're hardcore scripting IRC freak :P01:00
Admiral_Chicagoapokryphos: yes then you go with irssi or something that handles scripts better, but it's not all bad01:01
Admiral_Chicagobakert: okay look at this one01:02
=== mnepton uses jIRCii for GUI IRC needs
Admiral_Chicagomany times users will submit feature requests as bugs, however they are not bugs01:03
Admiral_Chicagothis particular page is really dialogue with the user, it's not a bug or support request.01:04
bakertI see.  I know this is a daft question, but how did you know what to say?01:05
bakertPackages and stuff like that is a bit of a mystery to me.01:05
Admiral_Chicagoi did a little research, a google search really01:05
Admiral_Chicagofound the developers page, read that01:06
bakertI see.  So you don't have encyclopaedic knowledge of how ubuntu works ... you just looked it up on the spur of this question.01:06
Admiral_Chicagolooked at the license, and that turned out to be okay (licensing is important when packaging at times)01:06
cjwatsonactually that sort of thing is a moderately legitimate request for the ubuntu-archive team, which we do handle as bugs01:06
bakertright, cool, so maybe i should stop worrying about being perfect and just get stuck in?01:06
cjwatsonalthough we normally don't need that for importing new packages unless we're in some kind of freeze01:06
cjwatson(may not happen instantly, though)01:06
Admiral_Chicagocjwatson: i took it as wishlist that would be assigned to someone01:07
cjwatsonof course from the course of the bug it turns out not to be a plain "sync this package from Debian" request but a "this package needs serious fixup" request01:07
cjwatsonwhich is legitimate for somebody in motu01:07
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Admiral_Chicagobakert: so lets look at the comments, the second one was mine01:07
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cjwatsonsince aiccu's in feisty/multiverse now, I've shifted that bug from "Ubuntu" to "Ubuntu (aiccu)"01:08
cjwatsoner, "aiccu (Ubuntu)"01:08
Admiral_Chicagoi went on #ubuntu-motu and asked some questions (MOTU = masters of the universe)01:08
cjwatsonin other words, it has been imported from Debian already, but if it's old and broken, a MOTU member needs to look at it01:08
Admiral_Chicagocjwatson: i'm learning packaging and hopefully can help with that01:09
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Admiral_Chicagothey told me the link to the wiki page that i posted01:09
cjwatsonhmm, should add myself for "archive maintenance" on the UbuntuFreshersDay page01:09
Admiral_Chicagonext was the discussion about licensing which was just claryfing what was on the webpage01:09
bakerti see01:10
elkbuntucjwatson, might as well, if you're willing to answer questions01:10
Admiral_Chicagobakert: one more: https://launchpad.net/bugs/72522 was some odd issues i saw with Konversation01:11
cjwatsonAdmiral_Chicago: it's not "free as in speech" by our licensing rules, I'm afraid01:11
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bakertso the process would be ... visit bugs or specs ... google around the topic ... visit #ubuntu-motu if necessary to get any further ... document each step on launchpad ... are there zillions of other groups like #ubuntu-motu or is that where you always end up when you can go no further?01:11
cjwatsonAdmiral_Chicago: e.g. you have to tell the upstream authors about certain kinds of modifications. that's why it's in multiverse01:11
cjwatsonit's not very far on the wrong side of that line, but nevertheless I do feel it's on the wrong side01:12
Admiral_Chicagobakert: well #ubuntu-bugs is a good place to start asking questions01:12
Admiral_Chicagocjwatson: i understand01:12
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bakertaha ... assume there is a list of these on the wiki or something?01:12
cjwatson(just a mild correction to your note on the bug)01:12
Admiral_Chicagoyes there should be one01:13
Admiral_Chicagoso if we return to this bug which I found annoying https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/konversation/+bug/7252201:13
Admiral_ChicagoI asked someone to confirm it, and they did (RJ marsan)01:13
Admiral_Chicagoerr Jucato i mean01:13
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Admiral_Chicagothe four comment was from the Konversation team, (KDE) which handles Konversation01:14
Admiral_Chicagovery few programs are actually written by Ubuntu01:15
Admiral_Chicagoso I sent it "upstram" to the KDE team01:15
bakertSo "upstream" just means contacting someone not specifically associated with Ubuntu.01:16
bakertThey actually made comments on launchpad, though.01:16
Admiral_Chicagothey use a different bug tracker, so I registed at bugs.kde.org and got this leik http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13775801:16
Admiral_Chicagothey do, but to monitor KDE wide bugs or distro related bugs01:17
Admiral_Chicagoit's quite possible that teh Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu, and Knoppix bug trackers all report this01:17
Admiral_Chicagothen it is a KDE problem01:17
Admiral_Chicagobut if only ubuntu reports it, maybe there was a problem with the package01:18
bakerti see01:18
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Admiral_Chicagoit's part of the idea of co-operation01:20
bakertso if you spy a bug that is part of a program you then go and put it in their bug tracker?01:20
bakertand report back to the ubuntu thread if they don't come on there and post updates?01:21
effie_jayxis an upgrade from dapper to edgy too much of a hassle... ???01:21
Admiral_Chicagoeffie_jayx: if you use easyubuntu/automatix/backport, maybe01:22
PriceChildor old compiz-quinn01:22
effie_jayxnope... no automatix here01:22
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Admiral_Chicagohmm, maybe01:23
apokryphoseffie_jayx: if you follow the guide you should be ok.01:23
effie_jayxit took me a while to get of hoary...01:23
effie_jayxI did an update from hoary to breezy01:23
Admiral_Chicagoit took me a long time to get on dapper01:23
apokryphoseffie_jayx: check the FAQ in #ubuntu channel topic01:23
effie_jayxI'm cool with it01:24
effie_jayxapokryphos,  sorry01:24
effie_jayxmy question was ... is it worth doing and update rather than a fresh install...01:24
effie_jayxbut a frsh isntall01:24
effie_jayxis a fresh install01:24
effie_jayxdumb question01:24
cjwatsongenerally we do try hard to support upgrades01:25
cjwatsonif you haven't heavily messed with the set of installed packages, it is unlikely to be a problem if you follow the guide01:25
cjwatsondoing a fresh install means you have to back up your data, etc.; hassle01:26
nilsflensDoes anyone know about dual core support and ubuntu? Should it work out of the box or will I have to build a new kernel or something tricky?01:27
PriceChildshould work out of the box01:27
PriceChild(i think)01:27
noctuaI've a AMD 64 X2 and it works out of the box!01:27
Admiral_Chicagonilsflens: it works01:27
bakertcjwatson, effie_jayx, i think you should back up your data anyway before doing an upgrade!01:28
bakertmaybe i'm just paranoid01:28
Admiral_Chicagoit's going to be a pain with non-free programs like flash + w32codecs and what not01:28
effie_jayxyou are not01:28
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nilsflensAdmiral_Chicago: good to hear it works!01:29
mruizping Seveas01:29
cjwatsonbakert: don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea, but it's not quite so strenuously required01:29
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stiffme1983hi everyone01:29
cjwatsonUbuntu upgrades don't touch /home, your partitioning, whatever; installs are practically guaranteed to01:29
cjwatson(at least partitioning, to some degree)01:30
SFA_AOKnils - I've got a Core 2 Duo and Edgy works fine with it01:30
nilsflensshouldn't everyone back up data regurlarly, anyway, even without upgrades or fresh installations?!?01:30
cjwatsonnilsflens: yes01:31
nilsflensSFA_AOK: Core 2 Duo, that will be mine as well, fine!01:31
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SFA_AOKnils - it was one of the issues ironed out on the release to Edgy (I think cjwatson may have been involved with backporting kernel patches to make it work - if so, thanks cjwatson  :)01:32
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bakertyes, but there is no good backup software!  i need something that requires zero maintenance.01:32
bakertas it is i barely get around to it every 6 weeks.  not good enough!01:32
pittibakert: setting up automatic backup is not something that can happen fully automatically01:33
pittibakert: you will always need to specify backup medium, mode, target, etc.01:33
cjwatsonSFA_AOK: thanks for the credit, but I'm not a kernel guy01:36
cjwatsonsounds more like BenC01:36
SFA_AOKahh yes, you're in charge of the installer aren't you? I think you helped with the bugs I filed on that. So thanks are still due :)01:36
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bakertpitti, sorry i didn't mean to say ubuntu (or whatever) wasn't good enough ... i meant MY behaviour!01:39
bakertpitti, i'm too lazy!01:39
bakertthe world does need a nice painless backup solution though01:40
pittibakert: same as I01:40
bakertthere's lots being worked on so hopefully a great one will emerge01:40
pittibakert: a backup system should just work automatically01:40
pittibakert: e. g. I have an automatic daily network backup I don't need to care about01:40
bakertmaybe i should work on that.  that's a real thankless task though -- all you need is one nasty bug and you are going to serrrrrrriously upset people.01:40
pittibakert: sivang is working on hubackup ATM (yay python :) )01:41
pittibakert: however, I doubt that there is *the* backup system01:41
pittibakert: hubackup is aimed at home users (ubuntu-like)01:41
pittibakert: my backup system is entirely script driven, etc.01:42
pittibakert: but maybe you just found a good field what to do in Ubuntu :)01:42
pittibakert: and I wouldn't call it thankless -- I had much fun writing my backup stuff, and once you have a good solution, people will love you for it01:42
stiffme1983does ubuntu support bluetooth smoothly?01:43
cjwatsonSFA_AOK: that's me, yeah; you're welcome01:43
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bakertpitti, true - thankless is the wrong word.  but it could get ugly!01:47
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pittibakert: right, it's not a trivial task at all, but certainly a rewarding one01:47
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apokryphoshi zul01:58
Admiral_Chicagostiffme1983: i've heard so01:59
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pittiLesley: welcome in the channel02:03
Lesleydo we ask questions here or post them elsewhere?02:04
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pittiLesley: here is fine02:04
pittiLesley: that's the whole point of this channel and day :)02:04
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LesleyI feel very irritable on this Friday - I have been trying to sign the code of conduct and cannot get it right??02:05
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pittiLesley: which step failed?02:06
Lesleythe first step - and dont laugh!02:06
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pittiLesley: ok, which instructions did you follow? they might need improvement02:07
Lesleythis is the first time I have tried an online signature and trust me if you have no reference point it is foreign - who can I phone?02:08
pittiLesley: ok, please describe what you tried to do02:09
LesleyIt says - create your own pgp key02:10
pittiaah :)02:10
pittiand you don't have one?02:10
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Lesleyoh you call it a gpg key not a pgp key!02:12
pittiLesley: you might try and install the 'seahorse' package, which should be able to create a key for you02:12
pittiLesley: but please make sure to read about the basics of digital cryptography02:13
pittiLesley: so that you know the difference between a public and a private key, how to handle them properly, etc.02:13
binary2k2guide for that here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto02:13
pittiLesley: that's pretty important, since in a digital world, your key is your identity and involves privileges and credibility02:13
pittibinary2k2: cheers02:13
Lesleyok - will do homework on it, but I still think i need a gorgeous geek to visit me and help! tx anyway :-)02:14
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pittiLesley: don't worry, reading about what a key is and how to handle is is not very geekish02:14
pittiLesley: it's largely equivalent to real-world things like passports, home keys, and trusting other people02:15
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Lesleyok - I have some picture books at home on keys and security, but still think a gorgeous geek would be a bonus!02:17
pittiLesley: admittedly it could not hurt :)02:17
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mruizping seb12802:17
pittiLesley: in the meantime, consider us your remote geek channel :)02:18
pittibut, please read the documentation first, of course02:19
LesleyI am a homework girl!02:19
palskipitti: if the package doesn't have any patching system you really should not add one?02:19
palskiand why?02:19
pittipalski: did I say that?02:20
pittipalski: it depends, I'd say02:20
palskiSomebody said that to me02:20
pittipalski: if it's an one-line patch, the delta for the patch system would be much bigger than the patch itself02:20
pittii. e. harder to merge with Debian02:20
pittipalski: but if there are more patches, or a larger one, then adding the three lines to debian/rules (plus the buid depdendency) can't hurt02:21
palskiok, this is oneliner so no patching system is needed, thanks02:21
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cjwatsonpalski: also, if the package already has patches applied in a certain way, you should follow the same approach02:22
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cjwatsonit's generally not a good idea to repackage something unless you're taking over the maintenance of the package in the most-upstream location (i.e. Debian if it's a package that comes from Debian, or Ubuntu if it's a native-to-Ubuntu package)02:23
pittipalski: I generally agree to cjwatson, unless there are several patches which are likely to not make it into Debian; if we have to maintain them on our own, then adding the three lines of dpatch runes is relatively cheap02:25
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pittipalski: but, by and large, I'd call this a matter of common sense02:25
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pittipalski: but this combined inline/patch system approach is very uncommon and probably confusing, too02:26
palskiok, this is clear to me now, thanks pitti and cjwatson02:27
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rmjbhello room02:30
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laszlokDoes anyone else think this is a good idea? (excuse the shamless blog promotion) http://laszlok2.blogspot.com/2006/11/there-has-been-lot-of-talk-lately-about_26.html02:31
rmjbso how did everyone find the sessions in the week?02:31
rmjbwhat teams are you all going to try to join?02:31
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CVirus #ubuntu-classroom02:32
[MatthewV(n=MatthewV@] help02:32
MatthewVbtw all, where does ubuntulog log to?02:32
Seeker`rmjb: They were good, and MOTU02:32
HobbseeMatthewV: see !logs02:32
MatthewVthanks Hobbsee02:33
Hobbseeon a channel ubotu is in02:33
elkbuntuor pm the bot02:33
rmjbSeeker`: yeah I'm trying on MOTU also02:33
rmjbSeeker`: you've got packaging experience from another distro?02:33
cjwatsonlaszlok: not sure, but it sounds like a graphical version of vrms :-)02:34
laszlokahh, so it already exists...02:35
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cjwatsonnot in the same form, but an earlier version of a similar dea02:35
rmjbseeing that there are ubuntu devs in here, should "new" contributers like the ones Open Week were targeting use the Herd1 CD that's to be out soon?02:36
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Hobbseermjb: it's easier to fix bugs that way.  but you'll also get more bugs.02:37
cjwatsondepends on exactly what you're trying to do, but it's often a good idea for developer contributors to follow feisty, yes02:37
cjwatsonif you also depend on your system to get work done, it might be a good idea to dual-boot with dapper/edgy or whatever02:37
Seeker`rmjb: Nope, I'm only just starting to get involved in the development side of things. I merged my first package on monday02:37
GazzaKQuestion: If I'm never gonna make a programmer, how can I help Ubuntu?02:38
binary2k2GazzaK: maybe join a LoCo group :p02:39
cjwatsonGazzaK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu02:39
GazzaK:p  well I did that bit02:39
Seeker`GazzaK: Keeping popey under control will probably help too :P02:39
binary2k2documentation need good people too02:40
GazzaKwell I try to do that, but he keeps leaving his house out a window02:40
rmjbSeeker`: what package did you merge? How'd you do it? I tried to do a sync but...02:41
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Seeker`rmjb: I did eterm, and I partly followed a guide and got quite a bit of help in #ubuntu-motu02:43
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GazzaKcool, I seem to be doing almost as much as I can, without learning code02:44
elkbuntuevery little bit counts, GazzaK :)02:44
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rmjbSeeker`: so your merged version made it into feisty?02:45
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GazzaKI'm trying to be the LUG master for my area too, as the current ones seem to have given up02:45
Seeker`rmjb: yep02:45
rmjbwow... congrats02:46
elkbuntuGazzaK, remember to at least feign neutrality02:47
Seeker`i may try to find another package to do tonight02:48
rmjbyou tried any packaging from scratch?02:49
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Seeker`not yet02:50
Seeker`i dont know enough about it02:50
rmjbthe packaging guide is really good, it's what I used:02:50
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rmjband there's a whole host of applications to package that users have submitted: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates02:53
jononice and full here :)02:53
elkbuntuand it's only early yet02:54
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rmjbjono: I have a suggestion for the next open week02:54
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rmjbwhenever it will be02:54
GazzaKopenweek has been so excellent \o/02:54
jonormjb, cool02:54
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LesleyI agree02:55
rmjbsome sort of web irc tool, for those of us stuck in the office02:55
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LesleyJono, plse may we have a class on security - keys, passports, tunnels etc!02:56
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jonoLesley, sounds good02:56
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MatthewVSeveas, you said something to me?02:57
SeveasMatthewV, <tab> error02:57
MatthewVSeveas, ok no probs :)02:58
bakertelkbuntu, it's 2pm here!02:58
elkbuntubakert, yes. your point?02:58
elkbuntuit's 1am here. 2pm is early in comparison :)02:58
bakertelkbuntu, just keeping it international!  (you said, "it's only early yet")02:58
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rmjb1am is early... in the morning02:59
elkbuntuyes, insanely03:00
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elkbuntuLesley, are you aware that there are often classes held of a weekend in #ubuntu-classroom?03:02
elkbuntuhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom has more information :)03:03
Lesleyno, but now i do! tx!03:03
Lesleywhere do i get info on topics and times03:03
elkbuntuLesley, the above link03:03
elkbuntuthere's a huge flood of classes from this week, and the class cycle is nearing an end, but keep an eye there and im sure something will pop up that interests you :)03:04
Lesleyyea - security!03:04
rmjbLesley: you can even subscribe to the page, to be notified when it's changed03:05
Lesleywill do03:05
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rmjbHow many Microsoft executives does it take to change a light bulb?03:17
rmjb1) 1001. One to install the new bulb, plus one thousand lawyers to assert intellectual property rights over every light bulb ever invented.03:17
rmjb2) Microsoft doesn't change light bulbs. It declares Darkness (TM) the new standard.03:18
Seeker`So is herd 1 due for release in the next couple of days?03:19
cjwatsonSeeker`: yeah, assuming we can get it to work03:19
cjwatsonubuntu-devel-announce is the mailing list to read for news of that03:19
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rmjbso where can I get some ubuntu or kubuntu swag for christmas?03:34
Lesleyamerica on-line03:35
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abattoirrmjb: http://www.cafepress.com/ubuntushop/03:36
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rmjbabattoir: thanks, no kubuntu swag?03:37
abattoirrmjb: looking...03:37
abattoiri think kubuntu-de had some03:37
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abattoirit's europe based though, if you aren't there03:38
LesleyIrmjb: im going to make my own swag - will let you know when it happens!03:39
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rmjbcool... kubuntu needs some t-shirts though03:41
abattoiri'm sure there are some.. just need to find where...03:41
Lesleyok! will look into it!03:42
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juliuxrmjb, in germany are also polo and t-shirts available03:45
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juliuxif you are interested message me03:45
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abattoirrmjb: imbrandon might be able to get you some kubuntu merchandise03:46
imbrandonthe Kubuntu shirts Riddell has and is selling, I will get the link posted to where to find them on kubuntu.org when he gets back this weekend03:46
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LesleyIs there any merchandise in South Africa?03:47
melterare there any official "Powered By Ubuntu" logos?03:48
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rmjbmelter: yep see www.system76.com03:49
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binary2k2aren't they free with a sae? or am i thinking of somthing else?03:49
rmjbI wanna get a t-shirt with a BIG ubuntu logo on the back... and I guess something on the front03:49
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Jucatohm... "Kubuntu" in front, logo at the back? :)03:50
melterrmjb: actually, i'm looking for 88x31 png images, like something i'd put on a web site powered by ubuntu03:50
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rmjboh I thought you meant for your PC03:50
GazzaKhttp://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/data/549/Ubuntu-UK_shirt.jpg  these were made by the Ubuntu-UK team recently, nice eh03:51
LesleyMy best bet is to design my own swag - Paris Hilton is so "yesterday"03:51
binary2k2yay Ubuntu-UK team03:52
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rmjbthat's nice03:52
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rmjbI wonder if jono is seeing all this swag talk03:52
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GazzaKI'm wearing it now, it's lovely03:52
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jonormjb, I am now03:53
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Seeker`GazzaK: Where can you get those from?03:53
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Lesleywell! i know how to design a Tee-shirt thats hot for chicks!03:54
jonook, so no one actually needs me :P03:54
GazzaKSeeker`, it's a secret03:54
jonogo ahead and print shirts :)03:54
jonoand send me one :P03:54
GazzaKI need you03:54
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Seeker`GazzaK: Tell me in PM then :P03:54
imbrandonheya jono03:55
jono heya imbrandon03:55
GazzaKseriously, the polo shirts were a limited run by LoudMouthMan for the linuxworld2006 expo03:55
jonothe polo shirts were awesome03:55
GazzaK14 a pop too, pricey, but worth every penny03:56
Seeker`thats not too bad for a polo shirt03:56
Lesleyyes we do need you , jono- too see if the tees meet with your approval!03:56
imbrandonthats not bad for a polo03:56
jonoLesley, hehe03:56
GazzaKand it was stitched, not a silly iron off (hehe) sticker03:56
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jonoI want to see some BACON FOR PRESIDENT t-shirts :P03:57
jonothats what we need03:57
imbrandonLesley == lh == SoC Lesley ?03:57
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Lesleybring home the bacon!!!03:57
GazzaKwe have a popey for president (I mean member) placards in the workings03:57
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imbrandonbacon for prez, coleslaw for vice03:58
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GazzaKummm bacon, I'm starving :'(03:58
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imbrandonhello bSON03:59
binary2k2GazzaK: you'll scare jono off sayin that04:00
imbrandonjono: we need to get a page together with all the ubuntu related swag links on the wiki ( so people can add / remove links as needed )04:00
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imbrandonlike people that are selling ( even short runs ) of T's etc04:01
imbrandonor like system76 giving away stickers iirc04:01
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LesleyYes, I agree04:02
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imbrandonLesley: are you SoC Lesley ?04:03
abattoirimbrandon: i think she's Leslie04:03
Lesleywhat does that mean04:03
jonoimbrandon, yeah a page like that would be good04:03
imbrandonLesley: Summer of Code, e.g our google hostest04:03
imbrandonerr was04:04
imbrandonjono: yea04:04
rmjbI guess I should really work while I'm at work... :(04:04
Seveasimbrandon, that was Leslie :)04:04
Lesleytrust me - i plan to make cape town the hottest ubuntu place to be!04:04
imbrandonSeveas: ahhh04:04
imbrandonrmjb: dont feel bad i'm in the office too, but its SLOW today04:04
imbrandonmost of the town is shutdown due to snow storms04:05
Seveasimbrandon, and now that I see you, imbrandon.sytes.net:10022 does not respond (and hasn't for quite a while)04:05
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imbrandonSeveas: yea its not on an ups04:05
imbrandoni'll fix it tonight04:05
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imbrandoni shut down all the non ups boxen a day or so ago when the storm hit04:05
imbrandonbut the worst is over, i'll bring it back up tonight04:06
melterrmjb: i found some: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WebsiteButtons :)04:06
LjLSeveas: what about the pastebin?04:06
imbrandonSeveas: btw that hostname is likely to go away soonish, i have a new one for you ( same IP )04:06
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Jucatomelter: nice find. thanks for sharing04:07
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SeveasLjL, that's waiting for mitsuhiko or smurf to wake up and do a dns change04:07
Seveasall of ubuntu-nl.org is now dead04:07
Jucatoany Kubuntu Website Buttons available?04:07
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abattoirJucato: you can take the one on kubuntu.org ;)04:08
Amaranthimbrandon: send some of that snow up here :)04:08
Jucatoabattoir: please make one for me :P04:08
binary2k2Jucato: http://tinyurl.com/wb3nj04:08
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Jucatobinary2k2: oh thanks... Google... :)04:09
binary2k2google is, indeed, your friend :p04:09
Jucatoit's Ubuntu's friend too :P04:10
imbrandonok back in a bit guys04:10
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imbrandon( few minutes )04:10
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mattmolehi all04:13
binary2k2hi mattmole04:13
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z4k4ri4hi, is there a community for ubuntu sysadmin?04:14
mattmoleI wouldnt call myself a newbie, but not an expert either. Just a full time user who attempts to play around with different things. Such as nfs, samba, shell scripts ...04:14
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LjLfabbione: i've seen your System Integrity Check specification while i was looking for way to do... the very same thing. a couple of questions: why don't the .md5 files in pkgsum follow md5sum's standard format (checksum, two spaces, filename, newline, IIRC), which is also the format md5sums files in .deb's use? what about SHA1 - really, what would they add (ok, perhaps a bit stronger, but given the other shortcomings...)? and, i guess you04:24
LjLthought about making the checksums files part of the repositories themselves (perhaps also consulting the Debian folk for coordination), what are the counterindications to that?04:24
gregutihello all04:24
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gregutiMy question: I have a tiny little personal blog about ubuntu, in french, how do I "subscribe" to my local planet.ubuntu stuff?04:26
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gumpaHowdy folks. I'm interested in IRC logs of the Launchpad session yesterday, but file where I would expect to find it is empty04:26
seb128greguti: contact the ubuntu-fr.org guys probably04:26
PriceChild hey i'm abck04:27
seb128greguti: or try #ubuntu-fr04:27
gregutiok thanks04:27
seb128greguti: the french planet is not managed by Ubuntu but by the french community around Ubuntu04:27
abattoirgumpa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_UsingLaunchpad04:28
abattoirhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_UsingLaunchpad2 was yesterday's session04:28
gumpaabattoir: thanks04:28
abattoirno problem04:28
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Squidocjwatson: is there going to be built-in support for installing ubuntu on machines that can't boot from CD-ROM? Like debian?04:37
binary2k2Squido: ubuntu already has that04:38
PriceChildwow does it?04:38
binary2k2opps, wrong link :p04:39
juliuxSquido, you can install them via pxe;)04:39
jorgpSquido, I think you will find, ubuntu will do 99% of what debian does04:39
binary2k2loads of different ways, netboot, floppy, iso on a ntfs partition ... etc04:39
SquidoI'll try that... thanks.04:40
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Jucatois this channel going to be permanent?04:41
SquidoI guess my whinge is that the debian boot disks always worked, even with my (very) old hardware.04:41
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pointwoodnot sure if this belongs here, but...what editor/IDE do you use for python development? (I'm using Kubuntu)04:46
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abattoirpointwood: kate :)04:47
pointwoodk :)04:47
PriceChildpointwood: You can use any editor you want really...?04:47
JucatoKate? KDevelop?04:48
pittikvim! *duck*04:48
pointwoodyeah, I know, just wondered whether there were any IDE that had some features that was nice when developing04:48
abattoirpointwood: you can use the terminal tab at the bottom to execute the file from w/i kate04:48
pittipointwood: kdevelop is a pretty big beast, but reasonably useful, if you like IDEs04:48
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hastesaverIs there a kvim, BTW?04:49
pointwoodpitti: but from what I read last night, it isn't that optimal for python dev.04:49
pittioh, python04:49
pittihastesaver: (I don't think so)04:50
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JucatoI thought there *was* (kvim)04:50
pointwoodJucato: looks like you're right :)04:51
pointwoodthere *was*04:51
pointwoodthe link to kvim in that article doesn't work04:52
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Flying_Eaglepointwood, i write all my python-stuff in kate04:53
Flying_Eagleworks quite good04:53
pointwoodanyway, it sounds like there isn't any IDE that is the preferred one for python by most people04:53
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pointwoodKate it is :)04:53
fabbioneLjL: sorry i don't have time to explain all that stuff right now. There are several reasons for each of the points. Ping me on monday and if i have time i will explain04:54
LjLok fabbione04:54
pointwoodI just got an itch to try developing a bit in python :)04:54
jonopointwood, woo!04:55
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pointwoodI'm primarily familiar with java04:56
JucatoI have an itch to study programming (C++) :P04:56
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pointwooda bit of javascript and a bit of php04:56
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pointwoodJucato: hehe, yeah, me too, I would like to learn to program with Qt, but...04:57
pointwoodnow python just "dropped into my lap" :)04:57
Jucatosilly question: knowledge of programming is necessary in packaging, right?04:57
Jucatopointwood: you got bitten by the snake04:57
gregbuntuhi everyone. i am also a java developer... i gather that many FOSS programs are python + GTK (or Qt), correct?04:57
hastesaverJucato, not necessarily :-) (Ubuntu's packaging is as simple as "copy over from Debian" and do find/replace :-))04:58
hastesaverJucato, *sometimes* as simple as...04:58
abattoirgregbuntu: yes, there are a lot of pyGTK and PyQT programs04:58
JucatoUbuntu is in love with Python :)04:59
pointwoodJucato: hehe, the hype, the damn hype! :P04:59
pittiJucato: packaging and programming are pretty orthogonal04:59
abattoirJucato: i guess a little knowledge of bash scripting might come in handy... else you don't need to know much...04:59
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pittiJucato: in principle at least; of course, as a package maintainer, you often deal with code, too04:59
pittiJucato: but the actual packaging bits are not related to programming04:59
sabdflhey freshers!04:59
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gregbuntufrom perspective of cross-platform apps, py* is a good approach also?05:00
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Lesleyhey! dude05:00
pittiJucato: packaging is mainly 'build the damn thing' and 'put the various files into the right place/package'05:00
sabdflno bowing needed05:00
pittisabdfl: hey Mark!05:00
Jucatopitti: ah. thanks.05:00
abattoirgregbuntu: cross-platform as in?05:00
Jucatopitti: Ubuntu Packaging Guide a good place to start for absolutel newbies?05:00
abattoirgregbuntu: i guess they run on Windows and Mac OSX too05:00
sabdflpitti leading the charge most admirably, i see :-)05:00
pointwoodJucato: This is specifically what I'm looking at: http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/index.html05:00
gregbuntuabattoir: as in windows, *nix, osx05:00
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pittisabdfl: great day and great response indeed here05:01
pointwoodhi sabdfl/overlord05:01
Admiral_Chicagosabdfl: is it a snow day for you too? :)05:01
Jucatopointwood: heh yeah that series of books. the C++ version is a bit too heavy for a beginner though05:01
LesleyMark, can you give me lessons on security?05:01
Admiral_Chicago12 inches over here in 4 hours...05:01
sabdflAdmiral_Chicago: hopefully there will be a lot of those this season :-)05:01
Admiral_ChicagoLesley: delete windows first.05:02
popeyhey Admiral_Chicago I thought you'd gone to sleep05:02
Admiral_Chicagoall my classes got cancelled05:02
abattoirgregbuntu: i know pyqt is possible, can't vouch for pygtk, but common sense says it should work too, but of course there are certain platform specific stuff too05:02
pittiJucato: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Packaging/Tips and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips are good starting points05:02
Admiral_Chicagopopey: i did. i went to bed at 7.00, woke up at 8.30 for breakfast05:02
pointwoodAdmiral_Chicago: next, install OpenBSD :p05:02
Jucatopitti: thanks again! :)05:02
pittiJucato: the latter also refers to the Debian New Maintainer's guide, which is still a good reference guide05:02
Admiral_Chicagopointwood: ya that's a good place05:02
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gregbuntuabattoir: so pyQT is a good choice for compiling to native code on the various platforms? (using java now for that but it needs JRE of course)05:03
popeysabdfl: how do you get over the "I have windows and it work for me" argument?05:03
Admiral_ChicagoJucato: also hang out in #ubuntu-motu and during down time, someone may be ablet to hold your hand and help you05:03
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pittiLesley: 'lessons on security'? Take care of your house keys :)05:03
Jucatopitti: ok.. but I'm a newbie interested in learning to package... I'll take things one step at a time :)05:03
pittiLesley: seriously, what are you interested in?05:03
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Admiral_ChicagoJucato: did you read that licensing links?05:03
jribpointwood: http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html http://diveintopython.org/ and http://rgruet.free.fr/PQR24/PQR2.4.html were my favorite links when I first started with python05:03
JucatoAdmiral_Chicago: yeah. I'll probably hang out in #ubuntu-bugs too while learning :)05:03
abattoirgregbuntu: since it's python, if you have the interpreter on the platform, and the necessary libs, you should be good to go05:03
pointwoodjrib: ok, thx, I'll have a look05:04
Admiral_Chicagoi'm always there05:04
Lesleypitti - security in general, but i am bothered about a few things??05:04
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pittiLesley: security in general is a veery wide topic05:04
gregbuntugregbuntu: heh, i'm such a noob... i thought python was compiled, not interpreted05:04
Admiral_Chicagospeaking of which, please confirm this. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/74050 I got it as well05:05
pittigregbuntu: talking to yourself? :)05:05
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abattoirgregbuntu: :P05:05
gregbuntupitti: DOH!05:05
pittigregbuntu: anyway, if there was an equivalent to perlcc, that would rock05:05
pointwoodI know more about python than at least one person then :p05:05
Lesleyyip- i know!05:05
abattoirgregbuntu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language) should give you an overview05:06
gregbuntuabattoir: thanks for that05:06
pointwoodwhat is tomboy?05:06
bhaleAdmiral_Chicago: someone from Kubuntu would have to configm that, I think05:06
jribpointwood: sticky notes that work like a wiki05:06
bhaletomboy is a nnote taking app from gnome05:07
bakertpointwood, desktop note taking05:07
abattoirgregbuntu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit) for Qt05:07
Admiral_Chicagobhale: i'll check it out.05:07
pointwoodsounds cool05:07
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bhalecould somone voice official helpers or something05:07
gregbuntuabattoir: good 'ol wiki05:08
Jucatopitti: btw, the two links you gave are the same page (one redirects) :)05:08
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pittiJucato: oh, oops05:08
pointwoodone question: In regards to bug reporting, is there guides as to how to report unsupported hardware? (what information should be provided, etc.)05:08
abattoirgregbuntu: indeed, there are a lot of good tutorials w/ which good old google can help you out :)05:08
Jucatopitti: no biggie. thanks! :)05:08
Admiral_Chicagopointwood: good question! unfortunetly i don't know the answer..05:09
Lesleypitti: there are so many things i want to ask - so i will wait for a class on the topic!05:09
EroickIs C# with Mono a good choice for developing on ubuntu?05:09
bhaleEroick, of course05:09
DannilionI have a question- how do I stop myself getting involved :Dt05:09
Admiral_ChicagoLesley: today is freshers..any and all questions go05:09
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pointwoodAdmiral_Chicago: I don't think it exists, but I ran into that problem recently - there are few things that doesn't quite work on my thinkpad05:10
JucatoDannilion: simple answer: /part05:10
pointwood/kickban Dannilion there you go :p05:10
pittiEroick: Mono has been adopted quite well by the Gnome project and by Ubuntu05:11
LesleyHow safe is irc from getting diseases!05:11
Admiral_Chicagopointwood: that's suprising, TP are supposed to have good support05:11
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abattoirwell, obesity is a risk ;)05:11
gregbuntufabbione: sparc port is still rocking for me. nice job,05:12
Admiral_Chicagosabdfl: question. do you ever feel that as Ubuntu gets more and more popular that you have to be more careful with what you say or do?05:12
pointwoodAdmiral_Chicago: and it does but the sd card reader doesn't work05:12
LesleyIs my back door open/05:12
Admiral_Chicagoafter all the CoC says you're supposed to be perfect :P05:12
bhalethe CoC says that you should be courteous05:13
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kdeuser^Jucato: hey !05:13
bhaleLesley: there is a lot of traffic here now, maybe best to not add noise05:13
Jucatokdeuser^: hi05:13
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Admiral_Chicagopointwood: check out this link...http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptops and maybe http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam05:15
bakertRegarding C#+Mono -- there's definitely some disagreement about how "safe" they are to develop with.  Right?05:15
bhalesafe in what sense?05:15
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hastesaverthe definition of C# might change? Microsoft might introduce proprietary extensions that Mono is not allowed to reproduce? Is that possible?05:16
pittibakert: safe in the sense of patents or vulnerabilities? :)05:16
LesleyWell dont encourage me to talk and then tell me not 2??05:16
bhalesome people like to theorize about what might happen if someone made a patent claim in the US05:16
bakert... what he said ^^^^ !05:16
bakert(hastesaver, that is)05:17
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pointwoodAdmiral_Chicago: yeah, been through that, but nothing about the card reader05:17
bhaleit is addressed in the Mono FAQ i believe05:17
Admiral_Chicagohmm. not sure how to help you really. maybe contact someone on the team?05:17
pointwoodI'm trying to find my bug report, but when I search I get no results... :(05:17
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Admiral_Chicagofile a bug report for sure05:18
pointwoodwait, found it05:18
Jucatospeaking of bugs...05:19
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EroickSo, are there any guides on how to get involved into packaging for Ubuntu?05:19
Admiral_ChicagoI suggest #ubuntu-bugs for this if that's okay with you pointwood and Jucato05:19
Admiral_ChicagoEroick: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Packaging/Tips05:20
pointwoodof course :)05:20
Admiral_Chicagoalso, packaging on help.ubuntu.com05:20
JucatoAdmiral_Chicago: they're the same page btw05:20
JucatoPackagingTips redirects to the MOTU page05:20
Admiral_Chicagoah okay i just pasted from what someone told you05:20
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cryptionWhere is a good place to start getting involved with Ubuntu?05:23
dholbachhey cryption05:23
dholbachthat depends on what you would like to do05:23
dholbachcryption: what would you like to do?05:23
dholbachEroick: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation05:24
cryptionWell I am a software developer, but I don't have much free time these days05:24
cryptionSo most likely something that does not require several hours a day05:24
dholbachSure - sounds good05:24
dholbachif you're comfortable building software, testing it, merging changes from Debian, etc - you might want to look into the MOTU efforts05:25
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Admiral_Chicagocryption: dholbach made a good point, or i would suggest bug tracking05:26
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cryptionOk, I have checked out launchapd, what exactly would I be doing with bug tracking?05:27
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pitticryption: it's mainly reading, replying, and debugging, i. e. quality improvement05:27
Lesleywell clearly i wont be getting any help from my ubuntu buddies that care - nite! :-(05:28
EroickHmm, it seems that most things in ubuntu are python.05:28
pitticryption: e. g. if you particularly like a piece of software, but don't want to spend much time in development, but care about it working well, then you might be interested in fixing bugs05:28
cryptionok that sounds cool05:28
EroickEg: update-manager05:28
Admiral_Chicagotrying to reproduce bugs, sorting bugs (keeyping duplicates out is one of many fuctions)05:28
pitticryption: usually you start with 'adopting' one package, to not become overwhelmed05:29
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hastesaverEroick, yes, Ubuntu loves Python :-)05:29
pitticryption: and it is beneficial to get in love with upstream, for forwarding/discussing issues with them, discussing ideas about improvements, e.g.05:29
Eroickhastesaver: any real reason for the love?05:30
pitticryption: or you help with developing new features, we have specifications for that05:30
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cryptionYea I am very passionate about getting things done upstream05:30
pitticryption: it really depends on what you want to do05:30
pitticryption: after all, it should be fun! :)05:30
cryptionAbout the new features, could you explain further?05:30
cryptionThat sounds very appealing05:30
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hastesaverEroick, well, Python *is* a nice language.... Perl is write-only, C is old and DIY, Java is bloat :-) (TBH, I don't know actually. I have nothing to do with Ubuntu)05:31
pitticryption: two times a year there is a developer summit where all interested people meet to discuss about new ideas; these are written down as specifications and tracked on https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs (for feisty in this case)05:31
pitticryption: or https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs for everything that anyone ever proposed05:32
EroickDoes anyone know why Ubuntu uses so much Python :P05:32
pitticryption: but often these are pretty global, thus require a certain level of experience05:32
pitticryption: usually it's best to start with small things to get used to the community, processes, and technology05:32
pitticryption: and a great way to learn and become involved is to start working on a very confined thing, like one package (be that artwork, network-manager, f-spot, or whatever you like to do on your computer)05:33
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pittiEroick: several reasons05:34
pittiEroick: most important of all, Python is fun, solid, and easy to learn05:34
pittiEroick: then, Python is one of the 'officially adopted' languages of the Gnome project05:34
pittiEroick: and many of us (sabdfl being the first) just love Python05:35
pittiEroick: we also have some people who come from that community05:35
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EroickI haven't used python since version 1.3 or something around ther05:36
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Eroick"The only languages currently used in applications that are part of an official GNOME desktop release are C, C# and Python."05:37
=== pitti python, too; it's amazing how hard it makes writing bad code
pointwoodreally? is there C# applications in the official Gnome release?05:38
EroickHow is GUI building with Python though? I know that it sucks with C and MonoDevelop looked good. What do you use?05:38
pittipointwood: Tomboy and f-spot (not sure about f-spot, though)05:38
jribpointwood: tomboy is such an application05:38
dholbachintltool is written in perl :-)05:38
pittiEroick: not really05:38
pittiEroick: my personal preference is using glade-gnome2 to click together the GUI05:39
pointwoodI just seem to remember reading that there wasn't any Mono dependency in Gnome yet05:39
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pittiEroick: and then you can load the resulting .glade file into a C/Perl/Python/Tcl/Whatever program and just have to define the callbacks05:39
Eroickpitti: Ok, and what do you use for an IDE?05:39
pittiEroick: I just use glade-gnome2 for GUI construction05:39
pittiEroick: for everything else I'm pretty old sk00l and just use vim05:39
pittiEroick: so I'm a bad person to ask about IDEs :(05:40
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imbrandon( also FYI you can load qt/kde designer files *.ui into python too just as .glade ones too )05:40
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imbrandonbbiab have to run05:40
Eroickimbrandon: what can you make them with though?05:40
pittiEroick: there's a similar designer application for Qt05:40
pittiEroick: look at the qt3-designer/qt4-designer packages05:41
Eroickpitti: hmm, Qt has funny licenses, does it not?05:41
pointwoodEroick: GPL05:41
pittiEroick: no, that was ages ago; nowadays, it's fully GPL05:41
bhaleEroick: it is available under GPL05:41
pittiEroick: of course you can also get a commercial license05:41
Eroickpitti: But not for creating comercial apps, right?05:41
pointwoodQt4 is even GPL for Windows05:42
pittiEroick: if you want to create and ship a commercial app with it, you need to buy a commercial license, right05:42
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pittibut that's of course totally OT here :)05:42
pointwoodEroick: if you want to create commercial apps then you buy a comm. license05:42
hastesaverAre there commercial GTK apps?05:43
Admiral_Chicagohastesaver: i don't think so05:43
pointwoodand since Qt4 is GPL on windows too, you might see quite a few KDE apps available on windows as well as Linux and OS X05:43
Admiral_Chicagogtk uses GPL05:43
pittihastesaver: GTK is LGPL, so you can build commercial apps with it05:43
EroickYeah, I dont plan on making anything nonGPL, but still. Its a restriction05:44
Admiral_Chicagoah okay05:44
hastesaverpitti, but has anyone?05:44
EroickHmm, if you made a GPL program with Qt but sold it would you have to have a developers lisence05:44
pittihastesaver: no idea05:45
bhaleyou can "sell" gpl code as long as you also give the source to the buyer05:45
hastesaverSo QT's licensing really doesn't matter at all, AFAICT :-)05:45
bhaleas with Red Hat Enterprise Linux05:45
bhaleyou pay for the binaries, you get the source05:46
pointwoodEroick: only if you want to make a closed source app that's Qt based, then you'd have to buy a commercial license from the trolls05:47
EroickMeh, I guess GTK will do though, GTK runs on Gnome, KDE and just about everything else nowadays05:47
hastesaverpointwood, like Skype?05:47
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pointwoodhastesaver: yeah, like skyp05:48
pointwoodAdobe uses Qt too05:48
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abattoiras does Opera, and Google Earth too, iirc05:48
abattoiri think vmware-server would qualify as a 'commercial' gtk app05:49
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dholbachgtkmm even :)05:49
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_MMA_I thought vmware-workstation was the commercial one?05:50
Admiral_Chicagono i think it's free05:50
Admiral_Chicagonot sure i've only seen it once05:50
hastesaverSo all these people use Qt even though they can use GTK for free? Doesn't make sense05:50
cryptionvmware-server or GSX server is free now05:50
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cryptionIs it possible they choose Qt because it has a public company developing it and it is object orientated?05:51
pittihastesaver: 'all these people use Windows even though they can use Linux for free?' -- there are very often several reasons :)05:51
pitticommercial support not being the least important one05:51
pointwoodvmware workstation costs money05:53
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Admiral_Chicago[10:54]  <_MMA_> Admiral_Chicago: vmware-server and -client are free as in beer. -workstation is pay.05:53
pointwoodhastesaver: Qt should be a very nice toolkit05:53
hastesaverpointwood, But Windows is not a very nice OS, so it's not necessary that that's true :-)05:54
pointwoodhastesaver: I don't get your point?05:54
EroickHere we go, C# on Mono or Python. Which one to learn first...05:54
cryptionPython :)05:55
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pittiEroick: Mono == C#05:55
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pittioh, sorry, ignore me (I read that as 'or', not 'on'05:55
bakertEroick, are you a programmer already?  If not, I think Python.05:55
hastesaverpointwood, No, I mean it does not logically follow, just because people are willing to pay for it, that it's better -- Windows is a counterexample. (But it may be true, I don't know)05:55
pittiEroick: but definitively Python, of course :)05:55
bakertEroick, Try www.diveintopython.org05:55
fastdamiHi I would say 3 things that greatly enhance linux (and so Ubuntu) IMHO: 1) A complete IDE for .NET developing (something like Sharp Develop on Windows), and a Windows Forms compatible .NET engine of course! 2) Complete networking interoperability with Windows networks (I experienced much problems in my LAN at work). 3) Make a stable kernel API to allow industries developing drivers for their devices. What do you think?05:55
hastesaverEroick, what languages are you familiar with?05:55
Eroickbakert: Yeah, I have some experiance mostly in Ruby and some C/C++05:55
Eroickive brushed with python for a short while long ago05:56
pittiEroick: diveintopython is nice, but quite heavy; maybe start with http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html05:56
=== Jucato wonders if there will be a Dive into C++ book...
pittiEroick: the tutorial is 'gently walk into Python' :)05:56
hastesaverFrom C++/Java, it's a short leap to C#. From scripting languages (Ruby fits that mould, I think), it's a short way to Python.05:56
pointwoodhastesaver: ahh...okay, but considering the fact that it is used for KDE (among other things) and they really like it too, I would say it is true :) I think it is one of the best (if not the best) option if you want to do crossplatform development (windows, linux, OS X)05:57
bakertJucato, I doubt it.  All the Dive Into stuff is Mark Pilgrim.  He doesn't seem like the C++ type to me.05:57
bakertEroick, python is a lot like Ruby.  C# is somewhat like C++.05:57
bakertAh.  As hastesaver just said!05:57
hastesaverbakert, does Mark Pilgrim have a trademark on "Dive Into..."? (Like IDG has on "... For Dummies!"?)05:57
EroickI like the idea of C# because I do work on windows computers as well as ubuntu, and MS supports C#05:57
bakerthastesaver, don't know but all the diveinto things in the world so far (greasemonkey, python, osx, accessibility, mark) are by him.05:58
EroickHowever, in a Ubuntu specific world, it seems that Python is more common05:58
bakertand he (since very recently) runs ubuntu.  good lad.05:58
bakertLeaving aside concerns about C# and it's genesis at Microsoft the difference between the two comes down to strictness.05:59
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hastesaverfastdami, If you're developing for Windows, it doesn't make much sense to do so on some other OS, IMHO.05:59
pittiEroick: in the end it's really bikeshedding; just try both and see which you like more05:59
pittiEroick: I have experience with both (I did my whole diploma thesis in mono-C# and many current projects in Python), and they are both good and usable languages06:00
bakertC# likes you to go a certain way.  Python is a little freer.  But the "tightness" of C# does get you the potential for better tools and a few other benefits.06:00
Eroickthe think I dont like about Python is that is isnt strict. Some things are builtin functions and others are methods.06:00
bakertOf course you are best off trying them both.  But try python first ;)06:00
JucatoI'm interested in KDE/Qt programming (eventually for Kubuntu). Are there any beginner-level C++ (online) books/resources you guys could recommend?06:01
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bakertAlso, I wouldn't want to write a sizeable program in C# without a good understanding of OO.  Python you could probably get away with it.06:01
bakertAlthough maybe you shouldn't!06:01
pittiEroick: there are very few functions; len(), rep(), str() are the ones that come to my mind, but almost everything is a method06:01
SquidoJucato: the kde developers site has a bunch of tutorials.06:01
JucatoSquido: thanks06:02
pittibakert: writing non-OO for small task is entirely legitimate IMHO06:02
pittibakert: python is great as a 'better shell scripts' tool, which C# is absolutely not06:02
Jucato(although Bruce Eckel's book requires some programming background...)06:02
Eroickbakert: No, you should never do anything in either language thats non-OO unless its small06:02
SquidoI had problems (probably just me) with libqt-mt -- lots of segfaults.06:02
SquidoI had to compile a non-threaded version to get the tutorials to function.06:03
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=== dholbach hugs pitti and seb128
=== pitti hugs dholbach
=== seb128 hugs dholbach pitti
pittiseb128: *hug*06:06
Jucatolots of hugging....06:06
=== pointwood waits for it to become his turn :p
=== pitti hugs Jucato
dholbachthat's what you get when you join the desktop team ;-)06:07
Jucatoyay! thanks! :)06:07
=== dholbach hugs Jucato and pointwood too ;-)
Jucatonow I feel like a bug :)06:07
=== pitti hugs pointwood, too
pointwood*warm fuzzy feeling*06:07
Jucatoyou can just feel the love hehehe06:07
pittipointwood: welcome to the desktop team, here are your first 2000 bugs06:07
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bakertJust taking it back a little bit.  I do hate len(), str() and repr() as much as anyone but they are still "methods" in some sense06:13
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bakertThat is, if you define __len__ on your object when you call len(object) you will get the return value of __len__06:13
bakertDaft, but true.06:13
bakertSame goes for __str__ and __repr__06:13
Seveasor __*__06:14
bakertJust don't get me started on explicit self.06:14
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tonyyarussoIn case any folks have been lurking in the shadows and are feeling intimidated, remember to feel free to ask whatever, technical or not!06:23
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RoadieIf I were to install Ubuntu from the CD will it affect my current operating system?06:27
apokryphostonyyarusso: do we have free will?06:27
abattoirRoadie: you can install Ubuntu alongside your current operating system if you so desire06:28
apokryphosRoadie: you can fire up the CD (and hence go into a "Live session") which installs NOTHING to your hard-disk06:28
tonyyarussoapokryphos: Scott Adams says no, but he also advocates Bill Gates for president, so must be wrong, therefore, yes.06:28
apokryphosRoadie: it runs directly off your CD rom and your RAM06:28
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apokryphosRoadie: if you choose to install, it will try to suggest to shrink the current Win/whatever partition, and make room for itself.06:28
ClaviOk, here goes. I learned about this thing from Melissa Drapers blog... I've got a question. Why does Ubuntu not add the prop. owned codecs like mp3/flash support in sources.list, but disabled by default...  with offcourse appropriate warnings should you want to enable it. At this time (as I understand it) there are 2 ways to easily add this (easy-ubuntu and ... eeeh... some other dudes repo). Why doesn't the ubuntu community/canonical t06:29
Claviake care of this in a decent manner that "just works"?06:29
RoadieOk I have sucess with running it from the drive but I would like to install an image that I can duel boot from at atartup.  Is this possible?06:29
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apokryphostonyyarusso: dang. 2,500 year old problem and all we needed was to know Scott Adams' answer? You're good ;-)06:29
sjoebooRoadie: yes it is06:29
tonyyarussoapokryphos: :)06:29
apokryphosRoadie: yes, it's the default.06:29
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fastdamiHi, I use ubuntu from 3 years (also at work) and I'm very satisfied. One question: both in 6.04 and 6.10 the support for Zydas (zd1211 kernel module) is very poor. This is a problem when I need to install the system on a computer where the Wi-Fi network is the only accessible! After compiling from source all is going well. Why you don't include a working version?06:30
sjoebooRoadie: if you install (that is click the "Install" icon on the desktop of the live-cd) it will preform an install on your system06:30
RoadieAs to free will well I'm going to freely install Ubuntu and hope it doesn't hose my computer.06:30
=== apokryphos thinks these are support questions though :P
sjoebooRoadie: it will find your windows install, and simply "shrink" it for you, to make room for Ubuntu. then at boot you can choose an OS06:30
RoadieAll right thanks to all, looks like it won't hurt anything.06:31
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RoadieBut I am going to do an image backup first.06:31
bakertRoadie, you should always keep a backup.  Your hard drive might fail tomorrow, even if you don't install Ubuntu.06:31
bakerttoo slow!06:32
bakertgood idea06:32
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fastdamiOne proposal: develop a GUI interface for the in-depth administration of some services (e.g. apache, mysql) that can be ran both locally and on another machine (e.g. a windowz one). This would allow a simplified administration of an Ubuntu server also in a Windows environement without the needs of being a conscious linux user. What do you think?06:33
apaterfastdami: have you seen WebMin?06:35
poningrufastdami: look at the devel list thread re: that06:35
LaserJockClavi: because the mp3/flash problem will be taken care of in a better way?06:35
LaserJockfastdami: that also requires a lot of security for remote administration06:35
fastdamiWebMin is quite insecure, AFAIK, isn't it?06:35
bakertLaserJock, what's the better way?06:36
JucatoLaserJock: yes, please do take care of those codecs in a better way...06:36
sabdflpopey: ask them to setup a wiki over SSL06:36
LaserJockneeded codecs will be installed on demand06:36
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LaserJockthis already happens for mp3s in Edgy I believe06:36
sabdflAdmiral_Chicago: yes, and sometimes i do put foot in mouth06:36
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Admiral_Chicagoi didn't think you'd get back to me :)06:36
bakertLaserJock, ah06:37
bakertLaserJock, that's good06:37
Jucatoyep, MP3's on Amarok in Edgy06:37
bakertBut it's an Edgy feature rather than an Amarok feature?06:37
LaserJockI believe so06:38
ClaviLaserJock: It doesn't as far as I tried ;) Easy-ubuntu is also a royal pain (on a laptop at least). Is that planned for feisty?06:38
LaserJocknot just amarok06:38
LaserJockit worked for me with rhythmbox in Edgy06:38
bakertSo what happens ... some kind of warning/explanation screen and  an OK button?06:38
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Jucatobakert: the script asks you if you want to install the codecs that are needed06:39
ClaviLaserJock, do you know which part of the OS captures those calls?06:40
LaserJockcheck out https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation for more info on all of that06:40
ClaviAh Feisty!06:40
bakertThat's cool.06:41
LaserJockClavi: not really, I don't know to much about it honestly. I was just testing out a fresh edgy install and clicked on an mp306:41
LaserJockand it popped up, installed, etc.06:41
LaserJockso it's definitely a goal, sometimes it just takes a little more time and planning to get things done the right way06:42
ClaviCool. That's the way it should be. I guess they'll refine it more in Feisty. Can't wait for  the next one (I think everyone says that after every new release of Ubuntu ;))06:43
pointwoodfastdami:  http://www.ebox-platform.com/ might be another option06:43
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fastdamipointwood: not the one i had in mind, but however quite interesting! Thank you!06:46
pointwoodsabdfl: For what it's worth (not much as I'm just a simple user ;)), I reall like Henriks post on the devel list about the binary drivers issue: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022672.html06:49
pointwoodfastdami: you're welcome :)06:49
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fastdamiOK here's another question: is there a way to do a login in a linux box using the same user of an Active Directory domain? This is a common problem in my workplace.06:55
LaserJocknetwork authentication was also a big topic at the Feisty developer summit06:55
LaserJocklots of specs about being able to work with Active Directory, LDAP, etc.06:56
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fastdamiShould I think that Samba has failed this mission?06:56
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LaserJockwell, samba is good for many situations I should think06:57
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LaserJockwe've also seen a directory service team sprout up in Ubuntu: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-directory06:59
fastdamiWell, a lot of people! I'm happy to know that someone is working at this seriously!07:00
LaserJockyes, it is a very important feature in the corporate and educational sectors07:01
fastdamiI think is one of the 2 or 3 features that could bring the use of linux truly in enterprises that also use windows07:02
rrittenhouseI agree.07:05
fastdamiOK, so if I would join the team involved in this, how should I do?07:06
fastdamiAre there pre-requisites?07:06
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LaserJockfastdami: I'd contact Corey Burger or Andrew Mitchell (who are on that list)07:08
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LaserJockand no there isn't a pre-requisite really, just interest in the subject and a willingness to help out07:08
fastdamiAs well as I have some programming experiences, mainly Perl and C, of course!07:09
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fastdamiShould I contact them with private messages? I'm afraid I can't07:16
LaserJockwell, ajmitch should be online in a few hours (he's on AU time)07:17
LaserJockbut email is always good07:17
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LaserJockfastdami: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-October/022107.html will be of interest to you07:20
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fastdamiwow! I think I'll contact them very soon..07:27
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timinphx1well it doesn't appear that there are too many people feeling very "fresh", isn't it like the middle of the night/early am for alot of you?07:28
pointwood19.30 here :)07:29
timinphx1by the way it's 11:29am saturday for me!!07:29
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MySelfit is 1:30 pm friday by here07:30
fastdamiIn Italy 19:30 pm, it's about Pizza Time!!!07:31
timinphx1I just woke up but it's good for breakfast also...07:32
fastdamiNot Pizza, ITALIAN pizza! (sorry for capitalizing the word italian!)07:32
pointwoodfastdami: about 1000km or more above you, it might be pizza time as well :D07:32
fastdamiNo no, I disagree!07:32
fastdamiOnly here it's Pizza Time, elsewhere is "something you call pizza" time!07:33
pointwoodthey make italian pizza's here too ;)07:33
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fastdamiIf you ever came in Rome, let me know! And after we can have a discussion about Pizza, or about Ubuntu of you prefer!!07:34
timinphx1I'm in Phoenix Arizona USA, I don't think that's really Italian07:34
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pointwoodI've been to Venice, but that's about as close as I've been :)07:35
jonoright I have to run - thanks everyone for making it a great freshers day07:36
jonomay it continue into the day :)07:36
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fastdamiI just written to Corey "Ham" Burger07:36
fastdamiHope I can help07:37
jononight all!07:37
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fastdamiLet's make some interesting discussion!07:39
timinphx1I'm fairly new to (k)ubuntu, started 09/29/06 are most of you old timers?07:39
fastdamiEhm.. I don't remember the exact date, but I use Ubuntu from 4 years07:40
timinphx1I sooo don't miss MS Windows XP...07:40
phanaticfastdami: that's pretty impossible :) first release is 4.10, which was a bit more than 2 years ago...07:41
_MMA_fastdami: 4 years or realeases?07:41
ranf4 years is impossible07:42
fastdamiwell 3 years maybe, from 5.0407:42
_MMA_Thats less that 2 years.07:42
pointwoodstill impressive since ubuntu is not 3 years old ;)07:42
timinphx1I got the point..07:43
fastdamiI had a 3.0 release ok? :-D07:43
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fastdamiprior to 5.04, what version?07:43
_MMA_Warty was 4.1007:44
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fastdamiOk, I follow Ubuntu from warty then! How old is Warty?07:46
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timinphx1I guess I had it easy, I started with 6.06 LTS, so a lot of the bugs were gone by then.07:46
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_MMA_timinphx1: Honestly Warty was solid from the start for me.07:47
chilliWhat's the best way to get hired to hack on ubuntu? (or any other distribution for that matter?)07:47
_MMA_fastdami: Warty is about 2.5 years old.07:47
fastdamifor me 5.10 and 6.10 have been a little problematic in the beginning07:47
phanaticfastdami: it's easy to get: first number is the year - 2000 (4, so it was released in 2004), the second one is the month (10 - october)07:47
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fastdamiWow, I never noticed this! Thank you phanatic!07:48
_MMA_ fastdami: 2 years is more like it. :)07:48
timinphx1I managed to make them harder then they needed to be..haha07:48
=== _MMA_ thinks too much about Feisty.
fastdamiOK so I'm a 2 years old Ubuntu user!07:48
fastdamiAnd prior, an unsatisfied SuSE 9.1 Professional user07:49
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timinphx1I tried SuSE 9.3 and couldn't even get it to boot.07:49
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fastdamiAnd my company paid for it!07:50
_MMA_chilli: Getting hired to hack on Ubuntu requires great skill IMO.07:50
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timinphx1Hired to hack Ubuntu as in by Canonical or for something else?07:50
_MMA_chilli: Its easy to volunteer though. Thats real easy in Ubuntu.07:51
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chilli_MMA_: well skills I got but they mainly involve embedded linux, my current work/project are about to ditch linux and I'd due to that I'd prefer to move on..07:52
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_MMA_chilli: I would see if they have any job postings. jono might be a person to talk to.07:53
_MMA_Otherwise, if you just want to help, unpaid, thats really easy. Thats where Im at.07:54
kernelabhishekedgy is not detecting my new fresh eth0 dlink07:54
fastdamiOK now I'm really going for Pizza, have a good re-fresh (at least have a good Pizza!) Bye!07:54
kernelabhishekplease help07:54
_MMA_Are we doing support in here?07:55
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timinphx1fastdami: enjoy!!07:55
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timinphx1I was under the impression that you should go to the regular chat rooms for that07:56
timinphx1there are 326 people in the kubuntu room07:57
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_MMA_So was I. Oh, crap. he left.07:57
phanatic_MMA_: http://www.ubuntu.com/employment07:57
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phanatichere you can see the current job offers of canonical07:57
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_MMA_Cool. :)07:59
mpathyNice jobs!07:59
mpathyHi there..07:59
juliuxhi mpathy07:59
fastdamiI have another 1/2 hour with you... are you happy?08:00
mpathyhi juliux08:00
pittihi juliux08:00
juliuxhi pitti ;)08:00
=== _MMA_ curses going for audio engineering instead of web design.
mpathyHmm seems I missed most of the open week :(08:03
timinphx1fastdami: of course we are! 8-)08:03
timinphx1I made it for Marks talk and a couple of other ones, they were very interesting!08:05
fastdamiI would like to now the average age of ubuntu users, I think we are all young people. I'm 2608:05
timinphx1opps, spoiled your theory!08:05
mpathy26, too08:05
pittifastdami: I'm 26, too :)08:06
mpathyfastdami: But I think ubuntu users are always like young people ;)08:06
mpathyor linux users in general ;908:06
timinphx1thank you!08:06
_MMA_30 here08:07
pittihey, in our LUG the oldest member is ~ 70 years08:07
juliuxonly old people here;)08:07
=== pitti sends juliux back to the sandbox :)
juliuxpitti, are you regular at the lug meetings?08:08
pittijuliux: no, just on the ML08:08
pittibut not very active any more either08:08
pittijust in the past mainly08:08
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mpathyThats great. I also know some older guy, around 60, who had a heart problems, was in a clinic - and we give him a laptop with linux and now he is a great computer freak ;)08:09
fastdamieheh you could be my grandpa!08:09
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GrandPa1<fastdami>I'm sure I could08:10
mpathyGPL = GrandPa License? ;)08:10
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GrandPa1that is pretty funny!!!08:10
tictacaddictI'm 18!08:11
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goukiHi everyone08:11
fastdamiI  bet Vista users will be all 60 years old! And ugly!08:11
GrandPa1great, now my Great Grand Child has arrived08:11
fastdamiBut with 4 Gb of Ram... Just to see the new Explorer 708:11
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kernelabhishekedgy not detecting eth008:11
mpathyBut back to the topic ;) How can I push some things I really want like to see in Ubuntu, sth. like: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/fingerprint-authentication/08:12
fastdamiI have to say something about fingerprint authentication08:12
fastdamiBiometric parameters are often considered "secure", instead in trials it's becoming difficult to use them as a proof08:13
mpathyfastdami: I know that they arent as secure as people think08:13
pointwoodthey aren't that secure, but secure enough for my use08:13
fastdamiThey should be much more secure of my "root" password however08:14
pointwoodI would like it to work in kubuntu on my thinkpad too :)08:14
mpathyfastdami: http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren?language=en08:14
GrandPa1I just worry about added cost for those of us who don't have a lot of $$ and old equipment08:14
mpathypointwood: Have a look at the spec above or on that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication08:15
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Sannekernelabhishek: you should get more help in #ubuntu08:15
pointwoodlooking at it right now08:15
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kernelabhishekSanne: ok08:16
fastdamiVery interesting reading, thanks mpathy08:16
fastdamiA dangerous one of course08:17
mpathySo my question, what would be the best way to push a topic to be more included in ubuntu? On the topic above I know that there are enough sources to get a good working solution, perhaps even in in 7.04 - but I am not really a big coder or developing guy ;)08:18
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fastdamiWhat about authentication through an RSA enabled hardware? Something like the old hardware keys, but more secure. I'm thinking at the enterprise scenario, I don't think my mother would fake my fingerprints to use my laptop!08:20
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mpathyfastdami: My setup, that I tried out, but never use in the "real world" is a combination of a chipcard reader with a special card I defined, my bluetooth which I defined on recognize my cell phone, and soon the fingerprint reader (when I get my Lenovo)08:23
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mpathyfastdami: Mostly I use only my bluetooth for some kind of security - when my own cellphone gets out of the range of my laptops bluetooth, it locks the screen.08:25
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davmor2mpathy: that's okay till your phone gets nicked :)08:26
fastdamiNice try, big security! It should be great if there could be a Network Identity (e.g. LDAP or Active Directory) directly linked to the recognition of some sort of hardware, e.g. I plug my company card in the PC and it starts with my user08:26
mpathydavmor2: what means "nicked"? sorry - my bad english, again ;)08:27
davmor2taken without consent08:27
mpathydavmor2: Sure.. My cell phone could be nicked, or the laptop ;)08:28
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z4k4ri4hi all08:30
mpathydavmor2: If something is stolen, its only a matter of time regardless what you set up as security.. ;) But the bluetooth thing was a idea I had when I played a little bit with "bluemon" - great tool for do such stuff..08:31
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z4k4ri4I'm a small time sysadmin, Is there a community of ubuntu using sysadmin?08:32
fastdamiNow I've to go, when we'll have the next chat?08:32
mpathyz4k4ri4: Have a look in the launchpad, there are many "groups" listed08:33
mpathyalso in the ubuntu wiki08:33
z4k4ri4mpathy: I'm thinking in the line of mailing list08:34
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z4k4ri4mpathy: last time I check there is no such groups08:34
mpathyoh okay.. dont know, but the things I said are a good starting point to also find a mailing list :)08:34
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tictacaddictmpathy I really like the idea of that setup with your phone.  I saw a product for sale that did something similar, but it had no linux drivers.  Too bad I have no bluetooth devices.08:36
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z4k4ri4mpathy: Let say there is no such groups, how do I start one?08:37
mpathytictacaddict: Its not difficult, if you have a bluetooth device - you only need "bluemon" which is in the universe repository08:38
mpathyz4k4ri4: I would do it in the "Launchpad" - www.launchpad.net08:38
IRCpicangishell I ask a question?08:39
PriceChildz4k4ri4: there's always the servers and security subforum on ubuntuforums.org for support08:39
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bclinchHey folks, just popping along to say hi!08:41
=== z4k4ri4 check the forums
IRCpicangiWhere can I find a complete list of companies that have chosen ubuntu OS as their desktop OS?08:41
mpathyI think you can find some testimonials on ubuntu.com08:42
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IRCpicangithank you08:43
=== GrandPa1 think perhaps mpathy has chosen the incorrect nick..haha
=== GrandPa1 is just joking!
GrandPa1Well, my wife is just waking up, so I must leave you all...thanks for the chat...hope to talk again soon...timinphx1 aka Grandpa108:46
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samgeejono kinda misunderstood my question on his session, so I'd like to refrase it here08:51
samgeeDoes an active community member have to use IRC or mailing lists?08:51
davmor2samgee there are forums aswell but pretty much yes.08:52
samgeeI've looked at the forums, but there doesn't seem to be much 'Launchpad-stuff' going on08:53
juliuxsamgee, most teams commune via mailinglist and/or irc08:53
davmor2samgee the thing is that the community spans the globe so it is easier to maintain online so those are the main ports of call08:53
juliuxsamgee, i think without read mailinglists or chat in the irc it is very hard to follow the activities08:54
samgeeyes, I feared there wouldn't be much of an alternative08:55
PriceChildjuliux: Launchpad integration is being planned for the forums08:55
DARKGuyis launchpad free?08:55
juliuxPriceChild, but launcpad integration is not enough;)08:56
PriceChildnope... but was just saying juliux :)08:56
PriceChildIt wouldn't be one way integration though...08:56
DARKGuyWhy to integrate something propietary then? that's contradictory08:56
juliuxPriceChild, and not every team is using launchpad;)08:56
PriceChildDARKGuy: both the forums and launchpad are proprietory08:57
PriceChildIts just that its the best solution that there is right now for ut08:57
apokryphoslooks a little bad I think, even though it doesn't bother me much08:57
juliuxDARKGuy, ubuntuforums.org use vbulletin08:57
PriceChildjuliux: of course... i was just saying :)08:57
juliuxPriceChild, ah ok08:57
DARKGuyOh well08:57
DARKGuyAs long as they keep using the free stuff, it's better08:57
PriceChildfree stuff?08:58
DARKGuyer, nvm, I confused vbulletin08:58
juliuxDARKGuy, not every forum is a vbulletin08:58
apokryphosubuntu includes plenty of proprietary stuff on the CD too08:58
DARKGuyjuliux: nu, I know that =p08:58
apokryphosbut this is more of a last-resort in many cases08:59
apokryphosstill, I definitely don't think vbulletin is necessary for a forum; I don't even think launchpad is necessary, but it is very nice.08:59
davmor2DARKGuy the main problem as I understand it is that launchpad needs to be an individual centeralised system so if you have launchpads all over the place it is no longer centeralised08:59
DARKGuydavmor2: Well, that's a good point now that you say it09:00
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apokryphosdavmor2: that's not the problem; the problem is open-sourcing the actual code09:00
apokryphosmore on this in the launchpad faq09:00
apokryphosDARKGuy: it wouldn't be a good thing for that reason though; because then it'd be the case that LP want to be in control of an app and only to have it one way, and that's the way they want it09:01
apokryphosquite anti-GPL. But of course, that's not the reason it's like that09:01
DARKGuyapokryphos: Yup, that was what I wanted to say in first place :(09:02
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PriceChildapokryphos: vbulletin is currently the only piece of software that does everything we need it to do09:07
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apokryphosPriceChild: like what exactly?09:08
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PriceChildYou find a piece of "free" software that does everything vbulletin does... plus one more thing and it will be considered09:09
apokryphosPriceChild: no examples?09:09
apokryphosnot trying to be annoying here; I'm genuinely interested09:09
PriceChildhehe yeah i understand09:09
PriceChildhard to think of off the top of my head... especially seen as i've never seen the backend09:10
PriceChild*off of09:10
PriceChildbut that is the official stance09:10
=== PriceChild thinks
=== PriceChild cries as he thinks about migrating a 3Gb database...
PriceChildbigger than that now actually...09:11
apokryphosfrom my experience with forums vbulletin is just probably the most dummy-proof. It's really not very easily customisable at all compared to some other forum scripts09:11
PriceChildhere we go09:11
PriceChildI'm pretty sure that vbulletin is easier to alter without changing original code, allowing easier upgrades... Im' sure i heard that from UG09:11
apokryphosthe obvious candidate is phpbb, but I haven't used that in years09:12
PriceChildPrinter Friendly versions on threads09:12
apokryphoswsn forum is a smaller up-and-coming script which I've found insanely more easily customisable than vbulletin09:12
apokryphosvbulletin was actually quite constraining09:12
PriceChildbig one: Post Reporting - report posts to moderators09:12
apokryphosprinter friendly versions of threads really isn't anything big; I don't know a forum without it09:13
apokryphosas I don't know of a forum without post reporting09:13
PriceChildat the end of the day i don't make the decision :)09:14
apokryphosI'd imagine phpbb would genuinely be fine for *all* the necessary things; it's been proven in projects larger than ubuntu09:14
PriceChildthe ubuntu forums seem to have exploded this past month09:15
PriceChildI haven't a clue how they're still running09:15
apokryphosyeah, forums can be intensive on a server09:16
PriceChildmore than one server ;)09:16
PriceChilddatabase is on its own09:16
apokryphostbh, even if an open source (like phpbb) didn't *entirely* fill the job, it would certainly, certainly fulfill the majority of things. And in such a case IMO it's a far better idea to support the free software project09:17
apokryphoslooks bad when we don't support each other; especially when we have similar goals09:18
PriceChildThere's a google video with mark's talk to google techs, and he said the same thing about launchpad...09:19
PriceChildbut they use it because its the best thing there is09:19
apokryphosI really don't like malone as a bugtracker though :P09:19
apokryphosKDE and Novell's bugzilla are really really nice09:19
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apokryphosagain though, the "it's the best thing there is" I don't think cuts it. If it was "the only thing that there is" then there's a stronger case09:20
apokryphos(in being consistent with Ubuntu Philosophy, that is)09:20
PriceChildpeople will fight over that one :)09:21
PriceChildPersonally... I'm happy to pay for proprietory software if its the best there is09:21
PriceChildI love my xbox 360 and games etc.09:21
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PriceChildnative linux games don't always cut it...09:21
PriceChildalthough there ARE some great ones...09:21
apokryphossometimes, and sometimes not09:21
PriceChildwesnoth... fish fillets... frozen bubble09:21
PriceChildPersonally I don't see what people have against proprietory video drivers... nvidia isn't about to install rootkits etc.... they wouldn't survive! However I understand that its important to many people to stay away from them.09:22
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PriceChildI also understand the "support free drivers to advance them, and make nvidia release the source"... but nvidia won't release their source, they'd lose all their secrets against rivals on how their technology works... and free nvidia drivers just don't work as well09:24
PriceChildbut that's my opinion09:24
DARKGuyPriceChild: But its a good observation09:26
DARKGuyPriceChild: It's like comparing WINE to Windows, same thing would be09:27
apokryphosfor the same reason many of us like free software :). NVidia's drivers are a black hole to us, among other things09:27
davmor2sabdfl I missed the out come of the official ubuntu training scheme did you say there is one planned09:27
apokryphoswith regard to the forum, I see many threads but no explicit reasons, except "Well, vbulletin is what the administrator chose. What I believe is that vbulletin had all of the features that the administrator wanted and he was also comfortable with setting it up and using it."09:27
PriceChildyeah, DARKGuy, i've got nothing against someone using windows dual boot... games work better on it.09:27
PriceChildI did it for a year09:27
DARKGuyPriceChild: I have dualboot too, just for WoW, CS 1.6, Silkroad and other games that don't work on Linux. Diablo II, Furcadia and Tibia (binary!) work perfectly :P09:28
PriceChildwow works on linux ;)09:28
PriceChildin wine09:28
PriceChildor cedega09:28
tictacaddictis it very difficult to get it running in wine instead of cedega?09:29
tictacaddictWOW I mean09:29
tictacaddicter, WoW?09:29
PriceChildthere's a howto on teh forums i think09:30
DARKGuyin WINE it requires a source code patch just 'cause they don't want to add it >.<09:32
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DARKGuyin Cedega works better though, almost out-of-the-box, with OpenGL09:32
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DARKGuythis is like, silent09:40
DARKGuyshouldn't be this filled with people new to linux asking lots of questions? D:09:40
tictacaddictyou'd think so, DARKGuy.09:41
Admiral_ChicagoDARKGuy: it was when I was talking :P but that was early09:41
LaserJockrrrrrriiiicola ...09:41
LaserJockit was much busier earlier09:42
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DARKGuySo I arrived too late :P09:42
LaserJockdepends on the time zone09:42
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DARKGuy4:43 pm here09:43
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LaserJockonly 12:43 here, I've got a lot more day ahead of me09:44
Admiral_ChicagoDARKGuy: 2.47 here PM09:44
DARKGuyAdmiral_Chicago: Hehe o.o09:44
DARKGuyOh well09:44
LaserJockhehe, I'll bet $20 he's in Chicago ;-)09:45
Admiral_ChicagoDARKGuy: LaserJock is right, when it was like 6 AM - 7 AM we had a lot of questions09:45
Admiral_ChicagoLaserJock: pay up i'm in Monmouth IL09:45
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Admiral_Chicagoi'm at college atm09:45
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=== DARKGuy is waaaay below, lol
LaserJockAdmiral_Chicago: hehe, so ... uh ... how's the weather? :-)09:46
Admiral_Chicago12 inches in 4 hours...09:47
Admiral_Chicagoclasses are "come if you can make it"09:47
tonyyarussofifth (sixth?) straight day of rain here...09:47
LaserJockyep, that's what I miss about living in the desert09:47
=== PriceChild realises he's been logged on in here for 9 hours
LaserJockit didn't rain for over 4 months this summer :(09:48
=== PriceChild realises he's not that sad as he was away for 5 of those
LaserJockso anybody got any questions?09:50
PriceChildCan i have a pony?09:50
apaterwhy does vmware refuse to run for me?09:50
PriceChildapater: how ar eyou installing it?09:50
PriceChildrepos or from source?09:50
DARKGuyWell if lots of questions is what you want...09:51
apaterI have installed it and it was running09:51
=== DARKGuy has lots :P
PriceChildapater: how are you installing it?09:51
PriceChildrepos or from source?09:51
apaterbut I switched kernels, ran vmware-config.pl09:51
DARKGuywhat's a program similar to msconfig in windows ?09:51
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PriceChildapater: what did it give out?09:51
apatervmware is installed, but it has not been (correctly) configured for this system.09:52
LaserJockPriceChild: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/files/no-pony-for-you.jpg09:52
PriceChilddid you do sudo vmware-config.pl09:52
PriceChildsudo is important09:52
apaterwith sudo09:52
PriceChildLaserJock: awww meanie :(09:52
PriceChildapater: how are you installing it?09:53
PriceChildrepos or from source?09:53
apaterI downloaded the package from vmware09:53
PriceChildOk thankyou09:53
LaserJockPriceChild: I like this version better: http://perkypants.org/blog/2006/03/23/can-i-have-a-pony/09:53
apaterand installed it from the script included with that09:53
davmor2DARKGuy gconf-editor09:53
=== PriceChild smiles
PriceChildapater: server or player?09:54
Admiral_Chicagoi just saw a news article about chicago's downtown.09:54
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DARKGuydavmor2: Ohh yay *downloads*09:54
PriceChildDARKGuy: its standard in ubuntu09:54
PriceChildjust run it09:54
davmor2already installed09:54
DARKGuyWell, this xubuntu didn't had it by default09:55
DARKGuyjust gconftool and such09:55
PriceChildapater: not the most elegant solution, but have you tried uninstalling it and reinstalling it?09:55
apaterI could do that09:55
LaserJockxubuntu is a bit different then ubuntu though09:55
LaserJockgconf-editor is for the gnome desktop09:55
DARKGuygconf-editor looks more like regedit :/09:56
davmor2ah that is really for gnome so I don't know how it would work for xfce09:56
DARKGuybut it's alright I guess o.o09:56
apaterafter lunch ....09:56
davmor2DARKGuy what are you trying to do09:56
DARKGuydavmor2: I'm trying to find an app where I can see the startup programs before X and such, how to disable/enable services and apps just like in msconfig in win09:57
DARKGuyActually, make that a brb, someone's knocking at the door09:57
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claudiugood evening10:00
davmor2DARKGuy Applications/system/services ?10:00
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claudiuwouldn't it be good to have a specially designed program to manage distribution upgrades ?10:05
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tonyyarussoclaudiu: That's what update-manager is filling the role of now.10:06
cjwatsonSquido: I'd love to produce Ubuntu installation floppies - but we've never had them because we've never been able to fit the 2.6 kernel and enough other stuff to make it work onto a floppy. Debian's only ever had 2.4-based install floppies.10:08
claudiuwell , I was thinking about an CLI version of this10:08
cjwatsonSquido: this may be changing soon, and if it does then we'll try to produce installation floppies10:08
claudiuso that anyone could use it, even on ssh, or GUI's10:08
cjwatsonSquido: at the moment, I believe people use Smart Boot Manager to work around this, although it doesn't help if you only have a USB CD-ROM drive or similar10:09
SquidoWow, thanks.10:09
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apater" sudo rm /etc/vmware/not_configured"  fixed my problem with vmware10:09
SquidoI had trouble with Smart -- old CDROM scsi driver needed....10:09
PriceChildapater: nice one :)10:09
PriceChildI'll remember that one :)10:09
cjwatsonyeah, SBM's not the best solution, it's just all we really have if literally none of the other methods work10:10
claudiutonyyarusso:  I was thinking about an CLI version of this, so that anyone could use it, even on ssh, or in other GUI's10:11
LaserJockI have a hard time even finding a floppy drive these days :/10:11
Squidocjwatson: I've done the - install min etch, then switch over the sources, and had pretty good luck...10:11
tonyyarussoclaudiu: I believe that is in-process.10:11
PriceChildclaudiu: no-one is going to advocate a remote distribution upgrade10:11
PriceChildunless things HUGELY improve very quickly...10:11
PriceChildi suppose10:11
claudiuPriceChild: why is that ?10:11
cjwatsonSquido: that's not tested and probably not perfect, but it should mostly work, yes] 10:11
PriceChildbecause sods law means it won't reboot10:11
PriceChildand you'll be stuck remote with no way to fix thigns10:12
claudiuPriceChild: wouldn't it be VERY useful for sysadmins ?10:12
cjwatsonif you have remote power, it's fine10:12
cjwatsonand remote console10:12
PriceChildvery useful claudiu10:12
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PriceChildhowever i don't think upgrades are stable enough for it to be seen as "safe" to remote upgrade to new distro10:12
LaserJockyeah, I was going to say that I like the idea of CLI upgrades but I also like to be sitting in front of the machine when I do it10:13
cjwatsonclaudiu: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/server-upgrade-tool - it's on the plan for feisty10:13
claudiuI was thinking about situations when some things should be removed and reinstalled after other things, like dapper->edgy upgrade process10:13
claudiucjwatson: wow, thats good10:13
cjwatsonmvo reckons it's not that hard to tack on a text frontend10:13
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cjwatsonit's only medium priority though, so not guaranteed to happen10:13
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=== PriceChild builds beryl
claudiudoes anyone know why ubuntu dapper makes use of only a part of my raid when installing ?10:14
claudiufor example, i have the root partition on /dev/cciss/c0d0p1and it is only 32Gb, and my hdd is(are) bigger10:14
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claudiubtw I had someone to install ubuntu on a server with the "next, next, next" method and i found out in the end that the hdds were used completely10:17
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claudiuwhat about beryl in feisty ? is it for sure ?10:18
claudiuerrata: btw I had someone to install ubuntu on a server with the "next, next, next" method and i found out in the end that the hdds WEREN'T used completely10:18
PriceChildberyl isn't definite for feisty...10:20
PriceChildwho knows..10:20
PriceChildargh beryl failed to build :'(10:21
PriceChildwhy won't aquamarine build... :(10:21
claudiuPriceChild: btw what is different about xgl, aiglx and composite ? I mean which of these is working on all graphic cards ?10:21
PriceChildaiglx is the best bet10:22
PriceChildcomposite runs on top of xgl and aiglx10:22
PriceChildcomposite is the actual 3dness10:22
PriceChildaiglx is built into edgy+10:22
claudiuok, so beryl is about aiglx ?10:22
PriceChildati's prop drivers don't run it.... but "radeon" will10:22
PriceChildberyl will run on aiglx or xgl10:22
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PriceChildAND nothing at all in dapper..10:23
PriceChildbut tha'ts not released yet...10:23
PriceChildbut its working ;)10:23
cjwatsonclaudiu: the "next, next, next" method will probably only use the first disk10:24
cjwatsonI think that's OK10:24
claudiuPriceChild: I have it myself , but I dont use it all the time, because of some little random things10:24
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claudiucjwatson: I really don't know how to manage that raid AFTER installing, the ide partitions are simpler for me to undrstand10:24
claudiucjwatson: I mean, if raid is hardware, shouldn't it show like an uniform partition to the OS ?10:25
tictacaddictI have heard that aiglx will work with a new beta nvidia driver.  is that driver in a repository for edgy or would I have to download it and install something from nvidia's website?10:26
claudiuAlso, it should be great to have in ubuntu more meta packages for all kind of uses10:26
PriceChildtictacaddict: edgy or dapper?10:26
claudiutictacaddict: there is a packaged nvidia beta driver from amaranth10:27
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PriceChildCuz i have a great guide for edgy :)10:27
PriceChildclaudiu: that driver is edgy only :)10:27
tictacaddictPriceChild: edgy10:27
PriceChildand is part of my guide10:27
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claudiuPriceChild: thanks, then10:27
PriceChildtictacaddict: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=263851 - use at your own risk10:27
tenshuhello all10:27
PriceChildNOT reccomended for beginners :)10:27
tictacaddictthanks PriceChild I will take a look10:27
tictacaddictwell I don't think I'm a beginner exactly.  I'll see how daunting it looks.10:28
PriceChildit "should" be fine10:28
PriceChildalthough things randomly go wrong10:28
PriceChildits tested on several fresh installs and works perfectly though10:28
PriceChildit doesn't like some laptop "Go" cards10:29
claudiuPriceChild: did anyone report fireox problems with beryl ?10:29
PriceChildclaudiu: when?10:29
claudiuPriceChild: sometimes, firefox doesn't want to show me the right click menu , unde beryl10:30
PriceChildNever had that problem personally :)10:30
claudiuPriceChild: it is maybe my configurations10:30
PriceChildmaybe :)10:31
PriceChildI keep mine pretty clean10:31
tictacaddictone thing I wonder: is there a good way to keep a record of changes so they can be undone?  Like, a way to have an image of my system at a certain point in case I install some new big pieces of software like beryl. Basically a way to restore back to a certain point without using a complete backup of the file system...10:31
PriceChildwiping before upgrades/downgrades10:31
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PriceChildtictacaddict: backing up your home dir hidden files will keep track of all your personal changes...10:31
claudiumost annoying thing in kde is that, quite often, old configs mess up new versions of programs10:32
claudiuIt could be great to manage that sort of incompatibilities somehow10:33
PriceChildit "should" be handled10:33
PriceChildfile a bug if now10:33
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tictacaddictPriceChild: what about for system wide changes?  For example, if I used your guide, how easy would it be to backtrack if I decide I don't want Beryl anymore?10:34
claudiuPriceChild: when going from dapper to edgy, my pdf printing stopped working , so i had to rename all the .kde folder10:34
claudiutictacaddict: you should note down the packages you install10:35
claudiutictacaddict: and purge them later  when you want10:35
PriceChildtictacaddict: you would sudo apt-get remove beryl, delete your repository lines, remove beryl-manager from sessions and reinstall the nvidia driver10:35
PriceChildi could give more exact instructions if needed...10:35
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PriceChildbut in 3 months of that guide being up, after over a thousand posts most have got theirs working.10:36
claudiuA great thing that kde is missing is a Settings Import-export Manager for users10:36
PriceChildi've only ever given support on how to revert other guides10:36
PriceChildno-ones asked for me to revert mine10:36
claudiuPriceChild: maybe a metapackage for beryl could be nice, for installing/removing things10:37
PriceChilduse aptitude then10:37
PriceChildbut remember that there's more to it than just packages10:38
claudiuI repeat myself :)   Having MORE metapackages for all sort of things would be great in ubuntu10:39
LaserJockclaudiu: well, then you get a mess of metapackages10:39
LaserJockand they are kinda static10:40
claudiuLaserJock: I mean when removing the metapackage, it  should take his friends with him back10:40
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claudiuI mean somehing like: wajig install beryl10:41
LaserJockclaudiu: oh right, well that is the way apt works now pretty much10:41
claudiuor,  wajig install tango-project10:41
claudiuBUT, wajig remove beryl should clean up !10:42
claudiuor metapackages for LAMP, or metapackages for DNS+POSTFIX or other I can('t) think of10:43
cjwatsonall package state changes are recorded in /var/log/dpkg.log, BTW10:43
LaserJockyeah, that pretty much exists10:43
LaserJockthere are also tasks10:44
LaserJockin the case of LAMP10:44
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LaserJockfor instance10:44
cjwatsonyou'd have to make sure never to logrotate that out of existence if you wanted to implement rollback somehow using it10:44
claudiuLaserJock: from what i know, removing a metapackage doesnt revert his depends10:44
PriceChildclaudiu: check out my link about aptitude...10:44
LaserJockclaudiu: if you have a recentish version of apt it should10:44
cjwatsonthat's why tasks are generally better than metapackages, since it's more feasible to implement removal10:44
PriceChildif you use it to sudo aptitude install beryl10:44
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PriceChildthen remove later, it'll remember10:45
cjwatsonor, as LaserJock says, apt-get has autoremove facilities nowadays10:45
LaserJockor at least it flags the for removal10:45
PriceChildapt-get is now "sort of" doing it too10:45
PriceChildstill prefer aptitude on edgy though...10:45
LaserJockcjwatson: I've wanted to ask you about tasks10:45
PriceChildalthough apt-get works better during development10:45
claudiuPriceChild: never knew about that, anyway apittude's ncurses interface is quite scary  :)10:45
LaserJockwill it be straightforward to move metapackages to tasks?10:45
LaserJocklike, I can imagine tasksel getting rather crowded10:46
cjwatsonI don't think tasksel's going to grow that much; there's the server tasks to do, but not that much more10:46
cjwatsonDebian uses tasks pretty heavily and its tasksel is not unusable10:46
LaserJockcan synaptic and adept grow task handling behavior?10:47
claudiuwhy don't we HIDE then apt-get somewhere ?10:47
LaserJockclaudiu: what?10:47
vyomani am thinking of helping with packaging, i have no exprience in packaging .deb files, as a java programmer i could help with the packaging jakarta stuff, where do i start?10:47
LaserJockvyoman: #ubuntu-motu is the place to start10:48
claudiuLaserJock: I mean hide the dirty apt-get, and show only aptitude to the user10:48
LaserJockbecause it isn't dirty10:48
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vyomanthanks i have been looking at ubuntu-java but not much is happening there over the last week or so10:48
LaserJockand we show the user gnome-app-install and synaptic10:48
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vyomanis there a way to find a mentor? someone i could help out and learn?10:49
ubuntu_hello ubuntuists10:49
vyomanfantastic lots to read, thanks!10:50
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claudiuThe best philosophy for a developer is to think about the majority of users/situations10:57
claudiuand not to think about ALL users/situations10:58
ubuntu_how has Open Week been going ?10:58
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ubuntu_I've missed most of it10:58
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LaserJockubuntu_: it's gone fantastic, IMO11:01
claudiuthere are all nice people here11:02
davmor2been great11:02
PriceChildjust remember it doesn't end after this week :)11:02
PriceChildthere are loads of channels you can contribute in for ever11:03
claudiuPriceChild: how is that ?11:03
PriceChildits not like we've only just come on irc for this week11:03
claudiuPriceChild: oh11:03
PriceChilddon't just disappear :)11:03
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claudiu!seen mark11:05
LaserJockhe was around this morning11:05
LaserJockmight be a little late for him now though11:05
claudiuthe list of names in the right panel of my IRC client sesms like my sources.list :))11:06
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claudiuthe list of names in the right panel of my IRC client seems like my sources.list :))11:06
claudiuthats cool11:07
tonyyarussoLaserJock: He's still logged in, fwiw11:07
LaserJockI know11:07
LaserJockhe's probably watching us now11:07
ubuntu_I'm reading docs on how to create a package11:07
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ubuntu_are packagers needed for the Ubuntu project ?11:07
LaserJockof course11:08
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ubuntu_are there packages that need to be assigned to people ?11:08
ubuntu_or do people just package new stuff and submit it ?11:08
davmor2LaserJock: you forgot to look up he is sabdfl after all11:08
LaserJockpackage stuff and submit it11:08
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LaserJockdavmor2: I didn't, I just didn't feel like bothering him11:09
LaserJockubuntu_: if you are interested check out #ubuntu-motu11:09
ubuntu_LaserJock: thank you11:09
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LaserJockthe MOTU are the developers who look after Universe and Multiverse11:09
LaserJockubuntu_: it's an all volunteer effort and you're welcome to help out11:10
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ubuntu_LaserJock: OK11:10
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claudiuhey, what about a ubuntu online magazine ? with newsletters and stuff ?11:14
claudiuwith free pdf version so that anyone could print it and distribute it ?11:15
claudiua magazine-like front-end for ubuntu-wiki could be cool11:16
claudiuwhat do you think?11:16
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PriceChildcheck that out claudiu :)11:16
claudiuwell fridge is rather like a blog, i think..11:18
Adri2000claudiu: there a an ubuntu weekly newsletter11:18
LaserJockthere is a longstanding "project" by the marketing team to create an Ubuntu magazine11:19
LaserJockbut I don't think it's really taken off11:19
claudiui was thinking about integrating all these in one flashy thing like a magazine, with pictures and stuff11:19
kishandoes any one here from medical ubuntu project11:20
Adri2000claudiu: of course I meant "there is..."11:20
claudiuAdri2000: dont worry I can recognize a typo :)11:20
claudiudoes anyone agree that kmenu should be able to sort menu items ?11:21
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claudiuI saw a nice thing about using beryl for notifications with water efect, did anyone see that ?11:24
claudiui think it was on youtube11:24
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PriceChildbah.... messed with beryl slightly too mcuh11:25
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kishancan any one help to install ubuntu live support11:33
kishanany one in here11:34
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kishancan any one help in installing ubuntu live support11:35
LaserJockI'm not really sure what you mean11:36
finalbetaWhat happens with specs listed on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+specs (Edgy) that have a started/good progress/beta status and are not on the Feisty page? Will they still be implemented?11:36
LaserJockbut #ubuntu would probably be the best place to ask11:36
kishanLaserJock: thanks11:36
LaserJockfinalbeta: well, I would think they would continue, but the might not be as high of a priority11:37
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