[03:59] <effie_jayx> hey atoponce  :D
[05:10] <effie_jayx> QUESTION: is it tomorrow yet???
[05:10] <tovella> QUESTION: what is meant by "Freshers"?
[05:10] <effie_jayx> ;D can hold my excitement lol
[05:10] <effie_jayx> new people
[05:11] <tovella> thx
[05:11] <effie_jayx> tovella, are you new to ubuntu?
[05:11] <tovella> no, but still learning more all the time.
[05:11] <effie_jayx> cool
[05:12] <effie_jayx> you coming tomorrow
[05:12] <effie_jayx> ?
[05:13] <tovella> effie_jayx: i don't think so,  i have to go to a funeral.
[05:13] <effie_jayx> my deepest condolences...
[08:40] <punknroll> hi there
[08:40] <MarkoKaa> hello
[08:41] <punknroll> anyone here ever tried runnign adobe cs2 on ubuntu?
[08:44] <MarkoKaa> I tried once and I didn't get it work
[08:45] <punknroll> hmmm...that is what keeps me from switching totally to kubuntu...i simply need stuff like flash etc...
[08:46] <MarkoKaa> I understand, and I have kind same thing but my prob is games :)
[08:46] <punknroll> ahh...i see
[08:46] <punknroll> ;_)
[08:48] <punknroll> maybe i will give virtualization another try when i get my new pc because you need a real fast machine for this
[08:49] <MarkoKaa> :D Have you tried Gimp?
[08:51] <punknroll> yes, it is really not bad...but photoshop is the standard tool and i habe to use it for my job, but that wouldn't be the problem...i need flash
[08:52] <MarkoKaa> k :)
[08:52] <punknroll> and i bought the whole cs2 package this year...****ing expensive;-)
[08:53] <punknroll> a few weeks ago i had the chance to talk to a salesman of adobe...he just laughed at me when i asked him if they would consider making a linux version of cs2;-)
[08:53] <MarkoKaa> yep I know that, and I understand that you want that the hole package works perfectly
[08:53] <MarkoKaa> :D
[08:53] <punknroll> he said people who use linux would never spend money on software ;-)(
[08:53] <punknroll> i would...
[08:54] <MarkoKaa> :) yep I would too
[08:56] <punknroll> where are you from?
[08:57] <MarkoKaa> I'm from Finland, you?
[08:58] <punknroll> austria
[08:58] <MarkoKaa> :)
[08:59] <punknroll> well then i have to live with my windows machine....and even upgrade to vista when they released their second service pack ;-)
[09:00] <MarkoKaa> :) yup, I'm kind sad that I can't use Linux all the time
[09:01] <punknroll> i would like my job a lot better without windows ;-)
[09:02] <MarkoKaa> :) yup me too, I'm workin in helpdesk for now and my last job was quite nice, then we had Fedoras in our computers :)
[09:04] <punknroll> ahh..cool
[09:04] <punknroll> i am a webdeveloper
[09:04] <punknroll> and mulitmedia producer
[09:04] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:05] <MarkoKaa> and sadly I have to go to the army :(
[09:05] <punknroll> so i simply have to hate windows because the lousy IE brings a lot of extra work
[09:05] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:05] <punknroll> army? oh boy!!!
[09:06] <MarkoKaa> yup in Finland all men which are over 18 years old must go to the army, min 6months
[09:06] <punknroll> here in austria too but you can choose civilian service alternatively
[09:06] <MarkoKaa> we have the civilian service too
[09:06] <punknroll> tha's what i did
[09:06] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:07] <pitti> hello
[09:07] <MarkoKaa> hello
[09:07] <punknroll> but you have to go for 12 month instead of 8 month army
[09:07] <MarkoKaa> yup
[09:07] <dholbach> hey pitti
[09:07] <dholbach> hey jono
[09:07] <MarkoKaa> We have to be in army "only" 6months
[09:07] <punknroll> hi
[09:07] <MarkoKaa> hey
[09:07] <MarkoKaa> Happy FRIDAY :)'
[09:08] <punknroll> yeah only 6 month of wasting your time ;-)
[09:08] <MarkoKaa> yup
[09:08] <tonyyarusso> jono: So, what's your vision for how today will run?
[09:08] <punknroll> so if you are from finland you gotta be a friend of evil death metal?;-)
[09:09] <MarkoKaa> :) I'm exception, I don't really like death metal
[09:10] <punknroll> lol
[09:11] <punknroll> well that's nearly everything i know about people from finland...death metal folks and drinking like hell ;-)
[09:11] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:11] <punknroll> just kidding...
[09:14] <MarkoKaa>  hmm, perhaps I should to some workin here too :)
[09:14] <MarkoKaa> not just chat with you guys :)
[09:16] <MarkoKaa> fortunately it's friday and it's quiet day usually
[09:18] <punknroll> thank god it's friday
[09:18] <MarkoKaa> yup
[09:18] <punknroll> ...i should also do some work...i have my own company so if i don't do the job ...nobody does;-)
[09:18] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:18] <MarkoKaa> what's your companys name?
[09:19] <punknroll> [amp] 
[09:19] <punknroll> adelsberger media productions
[09:19] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:19] <punknroll> we amplify your business ;-)
[09:20] <MarkoKaa> http://www.a-m-p.at | cool pages
[09:22] <MarkoKaa> I will go and drink cup of coffee :) -->
[09:24] <punknroll> thanx
[09:24] <punknroll> i already had 3 cups....enough for this morning
[09:28] <tonyyarusso> jono: fwiw, I think a lot of people (members and our guests alike) are confused about today
[09:29] <jono> tonyyarusso, in what way?
[09:29] <tonyyarusso> jono: Whether there is any structure, who will be responding to the questions (just anyone, or do we have certain folks lined up?), why it's in a different channel, for instance.
[09:30] <jono> right, its just an open forum essentially
[09:30] <jono> I will write up a wiki page to outline the situation now
[09:30] <tonyyarusso> Wonderful
[09:30] <jono> maybe with some contacts in here about certain issues
[09:31] <tonyyarusso> Meanwhile, it's 03:30 my time, so I'm going to try to get some sleep if that's quite all right ;)
[09:31] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:31] <orphean> no sleep!
[09:32] <tonyyarusso> jono: Oh, but before I go, I see you've attached this @ to my name - which brings me to another question.  Were you planning on fleshing out the access list, or just handing ops to people as you see them?
[09:32] <jono> tonyyarusso, yeah, how can I give ops to ubuntu members?
[09:33] <tonyyarusso> jono: Well...the naliot*-style answer is /msg chanserv help ;)
[09:33] <jono> heh
[09:33] <jono> whats the tonyyarusso answer? ;)
[09:33] <tonyyarusso> jono: /msg chanserv ACCESS <channel> ADD <mask> <level>
[09:33] <tonyyarusso> And just add lines for members and/or other entries from -classroom as you see fit.
[09:34] <tonyyarusso> (For instance, you'll note I for one still lack the cloak of +10 awesomeness)
[09:34] <jono> ok I will look into it
[09:34] <jono> thanks tonyyarusso :)
[09:34] <tonyyarusso> np
[09:35] <mnepton> anyone have a breath mint?
[09:35] <tonyyarusso> (What good would it do while I'm sleeping?)
[09:36] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:37] <jono> FOR UBUNTU HELPERS - see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuFreshersDay and add your nick and what your expertise is for helping new community members
[09:38] <mnepton> you're gibing me the opportunity to define my own areas of expertise?
[09:38] <mnepton> *giving
[09:39] <jono> hehe
[09:39] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:42] <poningru> jono: simple title change suggestion s/anything you like/anything you like (in accordance to the CoC)/ ;)
[09:43] <jono> poningru, you mean the topic?
[09:43] <poningru> err yeah
[09:43] <poningru> I was half joking
[09:44] <jono> any idea how I remove the topic lock, then we can all poke with it :)
[09:44] <mnepton>  /mode #ubuntu-freshers -t
[09:45] <mnepton> modelock is on
[09:46] <dholbach> being fabulous! :-)
[09:46] <mnepton>  /m chanserv set #ubuntu-freshers mlock -t
[09:47] <poningru> I have a question
[09:48] <poningru> how can I get in touch with newz2000
[09:48] <jono> poningru, just ping him
[09:48] <poningru> jono: I was never able to get in touch with him for the last 2 months whenever I tried for whatever reason
[09:48] <poningru> thanks
[09:48] <MatthewV> so how did the 'lessons' in #ubuntu-classroom go? were they well attended?
[09:49] <poningru> very
[09:49] <jono> MatthewV, very well :)
[09:49] <jono> MatthewV, its been an awesome week :)
[09:49] <kjalil> morning all :)
[09:49] <jono> hey kjalil
[09:49] <silwol> ...and all of those that I attended were really informative
[09:49] <ImInAfrica> hi
[09:49] <pitti> jono: indeed, it was a great idea, and great response from the world
[09:50] <MatthewV> jono, thats great :) unfortunately all the lessons were in the middle of the night for me (UTC+8) so I had to miss some I really wanted to attend
[09:50] <ImInAfrica> first timer here *blush*
[09:50] <jono> pitti, :)
[09:50] <mnepton> ImInAfrica: help yourself to the peanuts and gin
[09:50] <jono> MatthewV, thats a shame
[09:51] <jono> the week will be repeated :)
[09:51] <jono> ImInAfrica, hey! welcome! :)
[09:51] <MarkoKaa> jono: when?
[09:51] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:51] <mnepton> MarkoKaa: UTC+12 :P
[09:51] <jono> MarkoKaa, not sure yet :)
[09:51] <MatthewV> mnepton, NZ?
[09:51] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:51] <ImInAfrica> mnepton/jono: thankz
[09:51] <kjalil> jono: yeah, me too, I had to miss most of it because of work
[09:52] <Casanova> can anyone help me with xen here?
[09:52] <MarkoKaa> I've been watching since wednesday and I've enjoyed every bit of it :)
[09:52] <jono> I wish the world was smaller and more predictable sometimes :P
[09:52] <MatthewV> would it *maybe* have been a possibility to run two of each lesson, offset by 10-14 hours? or would that be too hard on those running the lessons?
[09:52] <mnepton> Casanova: you might want to /join #ubuntu or /join #xen
[09:52] <Casanova> mnepton: ok
[09:53] <mnepton> Casanova: this is not really a support channel. and things may be tough right now as much of europe and north america is asleep.
[09:53] <kjalil> jono: if the lessons were in the evenings or if the more interesting ones (subjective) were later on I could have made more of them
[09:53] <Casanova> :)
[09:53] <ImInAfrica> i have an interesting question for the "not so newbies"
[09:54] <MatthewV> kjalil, the 'evenings' is purely subjective too
[09:54] <Casanova> mnepton: its just that i never get replies on the #ubuntu channel :(
[09:54] <MatthewV> to timezones
[09:54] <kjalil> MatthewV: lol, yea
[09:54] <kjalil> yeah
[09:54] <mnepton> Casanova: #xen may be a better choice? is this on Edgy?
[09:54] <Casanova> mnepton: yes on edgy
[09:54] <MatthewV> ImInAfrica, fire away :)
[09:54] <ImInAfrica> my boss wants me to find a *nix based solution which we can install at the office. this should have firewall,vpn,mail,etc... am i asking in the right place?
[09:55] <MatthewV> ImInAfrica, you're asking a biased channel, everyone'll say ubuntu! :)
[09:55] <mnepton> Casanova: be sure to read this - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XenVirtualMachine/XenOnUbuntuEdgy
[09:55] <MarkoKaa> :)
[09:55] <poningru> MatthewV: I would say gentoo
[09:55] <MatthewV> poningru, ok, almost everyone ;) to be honest i'm planning to try out gentoo one of these days too ;)
[09:56] <MatthewV> but i've been saying that since i knew what gentoo was
[09:56] <ImInAfrica> MatthewV: yes, that's why i'm here, but i have no idea how to do it
[09:56] <poningru> ImInAfrica: this really isnt the channel for it
[09:56] <mnepton> ImInAfrica: have you gotten yourself some CDs yet?
[09:56] <poningru> you should try ##linux
[09:56] <kjalil> the things that annoy me the most about ubuntu right now are wireless and external display support. is there an easy way to contribute to these or do I have to be an expert C coder?
[09:56] <MatthewV> ImInAfrica, maybe the folks in #ubuntu-server could help?
[09:56] <ImInAfrica> ok thanks. will try there
[09:56] <silwol> are some of the experts here employed at canonical? I would be interested about how this works...
[09:57] <pitti> silwol: some are, yes
[09:57] <MatthewV> silwol, jono should be able to help you there ;)
[09:57] <mnepton> silwol: how what works? being employed? you show up, do some stuff, and then you get a paycheck. ;)
[09:57] <jono> heh
[09:57] <jono> mnepton is begrudgingly employed :P
[09:57] <MatthewV> silwol, basically canonical has some fulltime employees who work on ubuntu and other canonical projects
[09:57] <MatthewV> or am i wrong?
[09:57] <orphean> is this just a free-for-all or is there someone I should ask specifically to... ask. :)
[09:58] <silwol> do you "go to work" every day? is there some kind of headquarter where you attend every day?
[09:58] <MatthewV> orphean, just ask :)
[09:58] <Casanova> mnepton: the problem i face is that I am not able to ping any machine even from dom0.. not just the VMs
[09:58] <MatthewV> silwol, well, canonical has employees all over the world, so you mainly work over the 'net i s'pose
[09:58] <ImInAfrica> thx guys. cheers
[09:58] <silwol> yeah, that's what i wanted to know.
[09:59] <poningru> kjalil: hmm... upstream probably would be better people to ask
[09:59] <silwol> so many employees of canonical do their work at home?
[09:59] <poningru> silwol: how it should be
[09:59] <mnepton> Casanova: yeah, you want #xen
[09:59] <mnepton> but most people do not.
[09:59] <poningru> telecommuting ftw
[09:59] <Casanova> mnepton: I have pinged there and waiting :-) thanks anyway
[09:59] <mnepton> Casanova: bon chance!
[10:00] <pitti> silwol: yes, we meet four times a year, and otherwise use IRC/email/telephone/hugging
[10:00] <kjalil> poningru: well i'm asking since this is freshers and I basically know *nothing* about how ubuntu works in the background. i don't know what upstream is
[10:00] <poningru> kjalil: right sorry
[10:00] <silwol> wow, i am really astonished that this works that well
[10:00] <poningru> kjalil: upstream is basically any project ubuntu draws 'stuff' from
[10:01] <poningru> kjalil: for example we get our kernel from the linux kernel people
[10:01] <mnepton> silwol: if you ever met me in person you would run screaming in panic to buy a Mac >:)
[10:01] <poningru> our desktop from gnome
[10:01] <poningru> our browser from mozilla
[10:01] <poningru> etc.
[10:01] <poningru> so all these are upstream
[10:01] <poningru> one set of upstream is driver developers
[10:01] <MarkoKaa> guys what is good scp program to Ubuntu, in Windows I use Winscp
[10:02] <kjalil> poningru: ok, i'm with you so far. so this is a group of people who get stuff from somewhere else and this group is called 'upstream'?
[10:02] <poningru> ...
[10:02] <silwol> mnepton: i don't think so. i still hope about every person i meet that they have good personal qualities ;)
[10:02] <pitti> MarkoKaa: 'scp' :)
[10:02] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:02] <pitti> MarkoKaa: but if you want something graphical, why not just use Nautilus?
[10:02] <pitti> MarkoKaa: Places -> Network-Server
[10:02] <mnepton> silwol: if you imagine Ubuntu being somewhat like a car. the badge says "Ford," but without "Mrs. Frumpitty's Auto Glass Fabrication" there would be no windows. and if you have a problem with window quality, eventually Ford contacts Mrs. Frumpitty.
[10:02] <poningru> kjalil: its not a group perse... we just take their stuff since they release it under a certain license (GPL)
[10:02] <MarkoKaa> pitti: thanks ;)
[10:02] <poningru> kjalil: like they dont have a group meeting or anything
[10:02] <MatthewV> mnepton, nice metaphor :)
[10:03] <poningru> they are all independent of each other
[10:03] <pitti> MarkoKaa: even a shell junkie like me uses it sometimes, it's pretty convenient for browsing
[10:03] <MarkoKaa> yup
[10:03] <mnepton> silwol: it's kinda the same with Ubuntu and GNOME/KDE/Mozilla, except in this case you can easily contact GNOME/KDE/Mozilla yourself. when they make changes, those filter down into Ubuntu.
[10:04] <MarkoKaa> I'm concerned, I'm in windows and I opened cmd ant typed nano style.css....
[10:04] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:04] <silwol> yeah, mnepton. thanks for the infos so far.
[10:04] <poningru> rofl
[10:04] <kjalil> poningru: ok, wait. they are independent of ubuntu and canonical?
[10:04] <mnepton> MarkoKaa: got Cygwin? ;)
[10:04] <MatthewV> MarkoKaa, try 'sudo apt-get install nano' that should fix it :P
[10:04] <poningru> kjalil: yes
[10:04] <mnepton> kjalil: exactly
[10:04] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:04] <pitti> MarkoKaa: yeah, after a while, this windows shell really sucks, doesn't it? :)
[10:04] <MarkoKaa> yup
[10:04] <pitti> silwol: just ask, don't ask to ask
[10:05] <mnepton> kjalil: Red Hat, SuSE, Gentoo, OpenBSD, and tons of others also use GNOME and/or KDE as their desktop environments.
[10:05] <poningru> kjalil: for example 99% of the software we ship is not created by ubuntu
[10:05] <MatthewV> MarkoKaa, pitti win98 shell is much much worse.. no tab completion or command history
[10:05] <kjalil> poningru: ok so where is their website and info about what they are currently working on?
[10:05] <MarkoKaa> ;D
[10:05] <poningru> kjalil: each package should have its own contact info
[10:05] <kjalil> poningru: ah, you're simply talking about other linux projects that ubuntu integrates
[10:05] <MarkoKaa> mnepton nope I don't have cygwin :)
[10:05] <MatthewV> kjalil, for example, gnome is at http://www.gnome.org/
[10:05] <kjalil> poningru: by calling it upstream you confused me completely
[10:05] <silwol> if i write a piece of python software, say something with a gtk frontend, does it make sense to keep a debian/ subdir in my dev tree to provide basic packaging abilities?
[10:06] <poningru> kjalil: no for example firefox... that has nothing to do with any linux people
[10:06] <MatthewV> kjalil, think of it as a stream, stuff upstream ends up downstream ;)
[10:06] <kjalil> poningru: it was as if upstream was something special specific to ubuntu
[10:06] <poningru> kjalil: nope not specific to ubuntu at all
[10:06] <mnepton> giving Windows a shell is like giving your grandmother a breast enlargement. it's not gonna make her more sexy, and no *way* i'll look at it.
[10:06] <pitti> silwol: there might be different opinions, but as a Debian/Ubuntu packager I generally dislike upstream tarballs containing debian/
[10:07] <poningru> they just have their software/driver/app/whatever availble to everyone under a certain license (mostly GPL)
[10:07] <kjalil> poningru: ok so these projects are outside ubuntu scope anyway and have their own release times, etc
[10:07] <poningru> and everyone can use that
[10:07] <poningru> kjalil: yep
[10:07] <pitti> silwol: mainly because they break the clean separation of upstream bits in the orig.tar.gz and packaging bits in the diff.gz, so reading diff.gz, upgrading to new upstream versions etc. is painful and produces conflicts
[10:07] <pitti> silwol: also, it won't be useful for RPM-based distros
[10:07] <poningru> kjalil: like linux kernel just came out with 2.6.19 and we are not going to incorporate that into a release at all
[10:08] <pitti> ^ well, feisty currently has 2.6.19
[10:08] <poningru> we are gonna use their next one 2.6.20 in our next release (feisty fawn)
[10:08] <kjalil> poningru: ok, so going back to the original question, if I want to improve wireless support, i have to talk to the NetworkManager or ipw devs for example?
[10:08] <silwol> and if i want to release the package for a small target group (in this particular example some of my collegues), how do i usually keep the packaging information?
[10:08] <pitti> but it'll get .20 eventually
[10:08] <silwol> or better: where
[10:08] <poningru> kjalil: precisely
[10:08] <pitti> silwol: 3 possibilities
[10:09] <pitti> silwol: if it's really just useful for your colleagues and it doesn't make sense to officially put into distros, just keep it all in one place
[10:09] <poningru> kjalil: so it depends on which driver you wanna work at
[10:09] <pitti> silwol: (2) maintain the upstream bits in revision control, do releases, and separately maintain a source package
[10:09] <kjalil> poningru: this isn't very useful, for example sometimes when I resume my laptop from standy it doesn't automatically connect to wireless, so who do I talk to about that? NetworkManager, GNOME, or ipw? or kernel devs?
[10:09] <poningru> kjalil: the best thing you can actually do for that kinda stuff is call up the company and annoy them to release information
[10:10] <mnepton> silwol: personally, i think the most important piece for wifi right now is adding (n)curses WPA/WPA2 config tools for wpa_supplicant. this would allow WPA/WPA2 configuration from a CLI, and at install time.
[10:10] <poningru> kjalil: actually that would be ubuntu's domain of control
[10:10] <pitti> silwol: (3) create an ubuntu branch of your main dev branch which adds the packaging information; then you regularly merge from the upstream branch
[10:10] <poningru> kjalil: file a bug on that in bugs.ubuntu.com
[10:10] <orphean> If you're really into the Gnome project and trying to get more involved, use Ubuntu, and would like to help Ubuntu out with something like Gnome is it possible to help in any capacity directly related to the project in mind?  Or does one rather have to go through MOTU first and then get moved in since that's a core element of ubuntu?
[10:10] <pitti> silwol: (3) is admittedly the most elegant solution, but might be a bit overkill for you
[10:10] <kjalil> poningru: ok, this happens in ubuntu only, and I would like to see it fixed.
[10:10] <kjalil> poningru: ah, ok
[10:10] <silwol> pitti: it's all about practice ;)
[10:11] <poningru> kjalil: yeah and keep track of that bug... as in devs will ask you question or ask you to run a certain scenario with your laptop etc.
[10:11] <pitti> silwol: I'd recommend (3), since bzr makes this all really easy, and it is a good idea to get used to it because it scales really well
[10:11] <poningru> and it would be good if you can answer them back
[10:11] <kjalil> poningru: also, external display support is horrid and the ATI driver crashes my window manager sometimes. for all these I should file a bug?
[10:11] <mnepton> orphean: if GNOME is your interest then you should get involved with the GNOME Project, not Ubuntu. the stuff you do there will trickle down.
[10:11] <poningru> kjalil: hmm yeah but for those I doubt filing a bug would do you any good
[10:12] <silwol> pitti: where do i find information about how to create a package in a clean way?
[10:12] <kjalil> poningru: they are not easily reproducible though.
[10:12] <pitti> silwol: 'in a clean way'?
[10:12] <poningru> kjalil: your best bet would be to annoy the companies themselves about releasing information regarding their hardware
[10:12] <pitti> silwol: you mean how to create a source package based on a piece of upstream software?
[10:12] <orphean> mnepton, ok, i'm already involved with Gnome just wanted to see if there was any option to help on the ubuntu side since its the distro I use. thanks for the heads up.
[10:13] <silwol> yes, that's what i mean
[10:13] <kjalil> poningru: yeah how do I find out if someone is doing something about them for example is anyone going to make it easy to plug external devices into my laptop? is someone working on it? can I help them somehow?
[10:13] <poningru> like call up ati and tell them to give out information about their gpus
[10:13] <poningru> kjalil: for that kinda stuff you have to seek out the project
[10:13] <poningru> google is your friend
[10:13] <kjalil> poningru: Xorg in that case?
[10:14] <poningru> hmm actually not sure about that
[10:14] <mnepton> orphean: Ubuntu tries hard not to delta too much from upstream. the GNOME changes we do are usually "trivial" (for certain definitions of "trivial")
[10:14] <poningru> guys who would you help with ati drivers?
[10:14] <pitti> silwol: there are various tutorials, but http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ is still the standard reference
[10:14] <poningru> kjalil: see xorg would be a good starting point I guess... but different projects work on drivers
[10:15] <poningru> like nvidia drivers are being done by a group called noveaue or something like that
[10:15] <poningru> someone wanna correct that name ^^^
[10:15] <pitti> silwol: also take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips
[10:15] <silwol> pitti: okay, i'll try the maintainer (once again...), but up to now there was always a point where i got stuck... may i ping you if i need some help?
[10:15] <pitti> silwol: sure
[10:16] <silwol> okay, great thanks so far, pitti
[10:16] <pitti> silwol: *hug* :)
[10:17] <poningru> kjalil: see http://support.ati.com/ics/survey/survey.asp?deptID=894&surveyID=508&type=web
[10:17] <poningru> how to annoy ati
[10:17] <kjalil> poningru: this is frustrating
[10:18] <silwol> oh, pitti, what i forgot: if i have the project on launchpad (and I have, since kiko's classroom session yesterday ;) ), do i also keep the branch with packaging information on launchpad? simply in a separate bzr branch?
[10:18] <kjalil> poningru: the only things I can think of that keep me from using linux more are good video support and wireless support. but I don't see a way to change that
[10:19] <poningru> kjalil: what kinda wifi card do you have?
[10:19] <jono> hey Seveas
[10:19] <pitti> silwol: right, that's what I meant; call your upstream branch 'main' or so, and call the packaging branch 'ubuntu'
[10:19] <silwol> okay, thanks a lot.
[10:19] <pitti> silwol: please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrMaintainerHowto for that
[10:19] <kjalil> poningru: 2.5 years old laptop with ipw2200. it works almost 95% of the time, but sometimes it doesn't and I have to unload/reload the driver modules.
[10:19] <pitti> silwol_afk: that's how we maintain some packages in Ubuntu now, very convenient
[10:20] <silwol_afk> okay, thanks a lot.
[10:20] <Seveas> hi'
[10:20] <pitti> silwol_afk: and we can then link your ubuntu branch to the package if it gets uploaded to ubuntu
[10:20] <kjalil> poningru: also suspend to disk was not broken, but is now broken
[10:20] <poningru> thats def ubuntu bug
[10:20] <pitti> silwol_afk: happy branching then :)
[10:21] <silwol_afk> pitti: i hope i will be glad with it
[10:21] <poningru> kjalil: one good thing about launchpad is that it will allow people to say " this isnt ubuntu specific bug this driver/module/program/thing is atfault we should tell them about it"
[10:22] <poningru> kjalil: so filing a bug in bugs.ubuntu.com is probably the best way
[10:22] <poningru> oh and launchpad == how ubuntu handles bugs
[10:22] <kjalil> poningru: one thing I would like a simple answer to, is all this going to work in the next release? i guess nobody really knows
[10:22] <poningru> right no one really knows unless you test
[10:23] <poningru> the best thing you can do for that is
[10:23] <poningru> when different pre-releases comes out you should install that and test
[10:23] <poningru> kjalil: like what I do is I have a partition specifically setup for ubuntu devel
[10:23] <kjalil> poningru: is there a way to see what is going on in the background on a day-to-day basis so I will be more informed of current affairs and what the goals are, etc?
[10:24] <poningru> uh... you better ask one of these guys for that...
[10:24] <poningru> anyone wanna answer that^^^
[10:24] <kjalil> poningru: like a mailing list or discussion area where I can see where the project is headed daily and what the problems are etc
[10:25] <poningru> kjalil: I guess ubuntu-devel mailing list is good for that
[10:25] <poningru> but please do not email that list
[10:25] <poningru> also #ubuntu-devel is a good place to hang out for that kinda stuff
[10:26] <poningru> or just watch some of the heavy hitters in launchpad like benc, dholbach etc.
[10:26] <poningru> err not sure if launchpad has 'watching' feature yet
[10:26] <kjalil> poningru: would they be discussing issues with external displays, wireless and suspend to disk over there? i really want to know where those things are going
[10:26] <poningru> kjalil: yes that would be some of the issues they will be dealing with
[10:26] <MarkoKaa> kjalil you mean wireles ass wlan?
[10:27] <MarkoKaa> *typos
[10:27] <poningru> MarkoKaa: or freudian slip?
[10:27] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:27] <poningru> ;)
[10:27] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: lol yes
[10:28] <MarkoKaa> all my wlan cards are ahve worked fine in Ubuntu, but in Kubuntu my wlan card does't work so well
[10:28] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: my centrino laptop wireless works fine but just occasionally craps out. i want to make it work 100%. what do I do?
[10:28] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: i think it's a closed driver issue so I don't think I can ask too much :(
[10:28] <MarkoKaa> I have same prob in Kubuntu with my Acers wireless, solution: I don't have :(
[10:29] <MarkoKaa> With Ubuntu it works much better
[10:29] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: it's strange though. why it works much better for me in Kubuntu or even Suse for 2 years but in Ubuntu GNOME it's not that reliable. it's very strange issue
[10:29] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: it can't be the drivers in that case
[10:30] <MarkoKaa> Yup, I agree
[10:30] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: it is something that GNOME is messing up
[10:30] <kjalil> MarkoKaa: all these little things stop people from using linux. they *must* be fixed
[10:30] <poningru> kjalil: yeah most def in that case file a bug in bugs.ubuntu.com
[10:30] <MarkoKaa> In ubuntu 5.04 in my D-link wireless worked fine trough ndiswrapper
[10:31] <poningru> MarkoKaa: unacceptable
[10:32] <kjalil> i don't want extra features, just pay some people to fix thses issues once and for all, like a six month deathmarch :)
[10:32] <kjalil> so just in six months linux will be much more viable
[10:33] <poningru> nn guys
[10:33] <poningru> have fun
[10:33] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:33] <kjalil> poningru: thanks
[10:35] <MarkoKaa> hmm.. I've been at work 2.5hours for now, and I haven't done anythinf
[10:35] <MarkoKaa> *anything
[10:36] <pitti> MarkoKaa: see, that's how Ubuntu increases your productiv... erm
[10:36] <pitti> ... fun! :)
[10:36] <MarkoKaa> :) this OpenWeek degreases my productivity :)
[10:37] <MarkoKaa> well my boss don't know about this :)
[10:38] <kjalil> are most people here asleep right now?
[10:38] <poningru> hehe np
[10:38] <MarkoKaa> I don't know :D
[10:38] <poningru> yes
[10:38] <poningru> in the US
[10:38] <MarkoKaa> In Finland time is 11.38 am :D
[10:39] <poningru> well I am off to bed for real this time
[10:39] <mnepton> need grease?
[10:41] <punknroll> same time here in austria
[10:41] <MarkoKaa> :)
[10:42] <MarkoKaa> Damn, I runned out of Coke
[10:45] <blufox> fabbione, i found a bug in heartbeat-2 package for ubuntu ... and fixed it too. Whom should i send bug fix to?
[10:46] <yaso> In inda time is 3:15pm ;)
[10:46] <fabbione> blufox: file a bug with a patch attached
[10:46] <MarkoKaa> :P
[10:48] <yaso> dude, Is there any way to make apt cache directory to cd's
[10:48] <yaso> everytime i need to download the packages
[10:48] <blufox> fabbione, franklly i am into this bug fixing thing for ubuntu for the first time...sorry to ask but i am confused with so many bug lists:(
[10:49] <fabbione> blufox: it's no problem.. just go to launchpad, search for the package, explain the bug and attach the fix
[10:49] <fabbione> blufox: it's the easiest way to track stuff
[10:50] <yaso> any suggesion !!
[10:50] <blufox> thanks fabbione ,shall do that. How can i contribute to ubuntu heartbeat project as a developer ?
[10:51] <fabbione> blufox: well bug fixing and testing is a good start. Another thing is to make sure each bug you find that is not ubuntu related, will be pushed upstream
[10:51] <fabbione> blufox: that way we reduce the overhead and contribute to upstream that will later flow back to us
[10:52] <blufox> fabbione, i cross checked with heartbeat developers , IIRC they deny any such bug in heartbeat package and suggested its an ubuntu bug :(
[10:53] <fabbione> blufox: ok, then please file the bug. i have no way to know the problem if you don't add the details
[10:54] <blufox> sure fabbione ,may be its just some missed out nifty detail in package or whatever but i ll file the bug and fix too :)
[10:56] <kjalil> ok, is all of launchpad for ubuntu only or is there a  ubuntu-specific launchpad
[10:56] <dholbach> poningru: or seb128
[10:57] <blufox> fabbione, i cant submit the bug :(
[10:57] <blufox> fabbione, it says "Heartbeat does not use Malone as its bug tracker."
[10:58] <fabbione> blufox: you are filing the bug to the wrong url
[10:58] <fabbione> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/heartbeat
[10:58] <fabbione> start there
[10:59] <fabbione> or you said hearbeat-2
[10:59] <snail> QUESTION: I'm a (mono-lingual english-speaking) developer packaging a program that is written and documented in english, but has a target users particularly in C/J/K. What concrete steps can I take to make life easier for me, easier for the translators and better for the users?
[10:59] <fabbione> so https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/heartbeat-2
[11:00] <blufox> fabbione, heartbeat-2 i mean ..:)
[11:01] <fabbione> well use the second url
[11:06] <blufox> fabbione, done
[11:06] <blufox> fabbione, how can i contribute to ubuntu as a kernel developer?
[11:09] <fabbione> blufox: it depends how much you know about the kernel
[11:10] <mnepton> snail: is this app targetted at Ubuntu specifically, a particular DM, or OS?
[11:10] <fabbione> blufox: what kind of work do you plan to do?
[11:11] <blufox> fabbione, i have worked on misc kernel hacking, SCSI vrtualization , USB subsystem and would like to explore networking subsystem :)
[11:12] <blufox> fabbione, please read that as virtualization
[11:12] <fabbione> blufox: you want to talk to BenC and kylem in #ubuntu-kernel when they will be awake in a few hours
[11:12] <Seveas> Mornin'
[11:13] <mnepton> oy Seveas
[11:14] <blufox> fabbione, any ubuntu project i need to join to be eligible to contribute to ubuntu kernel?
[11:14] <fabbione> nope...
[11:14] <fabbione> just contribute and talk to them on how
[11:14] <mnepton> blufox: my PayPal address is ... >:)
[11:15] <blufox> mnepton, ...gigz ...thanks for that though ..lol :D
[11:16] <Seveas> blufox, you have to learn to ignore mnepton. His mind is where we store all crazyness
[11:17] <blufox> Seveas, shall try :)
[11:17] <mnepton> nonsense. utter nonsense.
[11:17] <Seveas> mnepton, yes, we store the nonsense there as well
[11:17] <Seveas> thanks for the correction
[11:17] <mnepton> now, when i re-assume the Jade Throne and reclaim you all as my slaves, Seveas shall pay.
[11:17] <mnepton> until then ... anyone got some spare change?
[11:17] <Seveas> I have $0,93 left from the US
[11:18] <mnepton> is that enough to purchase your immortal soul?
[11:18] <Seveas> oh, that's been sold already
[11:18] <mnepton> gah, day late and US$0.93 short *again*
[11:18] <Seveas> fabbione, grazie
[11:19] <mnepton> fabbione: as if you have any power over me at all ...
[11:20] <punknroll> bye guys
[11:20] <fabbione> eheh
[11:24] <juliux> hm perhaps somebody can ban him?
[11:25] <Seveas> juliux, it seems solved now
[11:25] <juliux> Seveas, yes
[11:25] <blufox> thanks a lot fabbione :)
[11:25] <blufox> bye all
[11:26] <popey> moo
[12:02] <Seveas> 51 people and no questions :)
[12:03] <mattl> i've got a question.
[12:03] <elkbuntu> ask away :)
[12:03] <mattl> What does open source mean to you?
[12:03] <elkbuntu> it means that i can do things that i would otherwise would not be able to do.
[12:03] <dholbach> parties!
[12:04] <dholbach> ponies! :-)
[12:04] <elkbuntu> and huggles!
[12:04] <elkbuntu> mattl, what does it mean to you?
[12:04] <juliux> mattl, that is opensource;
[12:05] <mattl> open source.. i'm never entirely sure what i can do with stuff. i know there's a definition, but lots of stuff is claimed to be 'open source' when it doesn't meet the guidelines.
[12:07] <Corbeaux> what are the guidelines?
[12:07] <Corbeaux> opensource != free
[12:07] <mnepton> free != pony :(
[12:07] <Corbeaux> :(
[12:08] <mattl> See, the reason I choose to say 'free software', is that I think there's a clearly defined idea of what free software is, and that it chooses to make an ethical choice, over functionality.
[12:09] <Corbeaux> gtg bbl :(
[12:09] <elkbuntu> i've never been a fan of the usage of the word 'free'
[12:10] <pitti> mattl: essentially, free software is a subset of open source
[12:11] <elkbuntu> there's enough ambiguities in communication, especially digital communication, without putting philosophy and language against each other
[12:11] <pitti> mattl: i. e. 'open source' is just what it says, source code is available for inspection
[12:11] <pitti> mattl: but the term 'Open Source' does not imply any license model
[12:11] <mattl> that's why it's a meaningless term, imo.
[12:11] <pitti> mattl: whereas free software has clear requirements on the license, and implies openness of source code
[12:12] <pitti> mattl: not totally meanlingless, but largely irrelevant for users, right
[12:12] <palski> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
[12:12] <mattl> pitti: free software doesn't imply openness of code, it provides the four freedoms.
[12:13] <pitti> palski: right, these are roughly equivalent to Debian's DFSG (in fact, they took Debian's definition as a basis)
[12:13] <pitti> mattl: DFSG terms and above definition of Free software require openness of source code
[12:14] <KingOfEngland> Rise, *Sir* pitti
[12:14] <mattl> pitti: don't they require that you are free to modify, distribute and study the code, and to distribute modified versions?
[12:15] <pitti> mattl: 'require that you are free to distribute' is too weak and doesn't actually require anything :)
[12:15] <Admiral_Chicago> elkbuntu: why don't you like "free" melissa
[12:15] <Admiral_Chicago> ah i see not using languague as a weapon
[12:16] <elkbuntu> Admiral_Chicago, i've already stated. the ambiguity of the term. it's also complicated when the philosophy gets translated.
[12:16] <pitti> mattl: it's from an user's POV; whenever you get a piece of free software, you must be able to get the source
[12:16] <mattl> pitti: how so? if i have some free software, modify it.. i'm free to distribute it, but i don't have to..
[12:16] <Admiral_Chicago> well i understand that, but free does not always mean open source
[12:16] <pitti> mattl: but if you distribute it, you have to provide the source code
[12:17] <mattl> sure.
[12:17] <Admiral_Chicago> take a look at the BSD license.
[12:17] <pitti> Admiral_Chicago: that of course depends on your definition of free software
[12:17] <Admiral_Chicago> pitti: i use the free as in beer, free as in speech
[12:17] <PriceChild> Hey all
[12:18] <Lord_R> ehlo
[12:18] <pitti> Admiral_Chicago: yeah, the old ambiguity :)
[12:18] <elkbuntu> Admiral_Chicago, free as in speech doesnt apply everywhere in the world, unfortunately
[12:18] <Admiral_Chicago> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD/License#Proprietary_software_licenses_compatibility
[12:19] <Admiral_Chicago> i don't believe in the BSD license, I believe in the GPL method as of downstream being free as well
[12:19] <mattl> I wonder why nobody's relicensed BSD under the GPL yet.
[12:19] <pitti> mattl: how do you mean? only the copyright holder can do that
[12:20] <Admiral_Chicago> elkbuntu: yes it doesn't exist in every place of the world but i believe it should and I don't believe in restrictive licenses for that reason. you can't limit freedom in some areas and not others
[12:20] <pitti> and it wouldn't make much sense once the software is available under bsd
[12:21] <elkbuntu> Admiral_Chicago, im not saying the terms of the licence are changed by it, but in terms of defining something, using speech as an example is not translatable
[12:21] <mattl> if i can take BSD licensed code and put it under a proprietary license, why can't i take it and put it under the GPL?
[12:21] <elkbuntu> s/translatable/transferable/
[12:22] <Admiral_Chicago> ah i understand your point and it is a good point
[12:22] <pitti> mattl: " Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
[12:22] <pitti> *       notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer."
[12:22] <pitti> mattl: IANAL, but this seems to be the reason
[12:22] <mattl> i think it's an interesting area to consider though.
[12:22] <mattl> i'd like to see more and more BSD code come under the GPLv3 umbrella.
[12:23] <pitti> mattl: oh, wait, it actually seems to be possible to do that
[12:23] <pitti> mattl: but what would that buy you?
[12:23] <jono> maybe its better to spend our time making better software than having pointless license debates? ;)
[12:24] <mnepton> jono: heresy!
[12:24] <KingOfEngland> jono: Licenses are important in terms of things remaining free though, the FSF sound rabid at times but they ensure our long term freedom
[12:24] <mattl> pitti: the guarantee that people who received a copy wouldn't be able to have their freedom away?
[12:24] <pitti> mattl: no, since it's still available as bsd
[12:24] <mattl> pitti: not of my version.
[12:25] <mattl> jono: there needs to be a #write-code channel, in which you can only talk in C.
[12:25] <mnepton> if all the hot air expended in open source licensing debates were to disappear the world would experience another ice age.
[12:25] <jono> KingOfEngland, they are important, but *way* too much time is spent on pointless license discussion - free software will never rule if we spend too much time directing our efforts on the wrong things
[12:25] <mattl> Corbeaux: hah, you joined! ;)
[12:25] <Corbeaux> lol @matti
[12:26] <jono> mattl, I don't want to limit the discussion, I just wish our community would direct its efforts better
[12:26] <Corbeaux> breakfast was good
[12:26] <mattl> jono: i agree.
[12:26] <KingOfEngland> jono: What do you mean by 'rule' ? Why is the level of market adoption such an important goal? I'd much rather have code that does stuff I want but is free than to compromise on the freedom, hence the freedom should be the primary issue
[12:26] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: i disagree, i've learned a lot about licenses listening to RMS talk, just like I've leaned a lot about the Ubuntu community form Jeff Waugh's speech
[12:27] <mattl> what's more important? 1 user with free software, or 10 with some free software and some non-free software?
[12:27] <jono> I am not saying we should discuss licenses -  but I would like to see the people who talk about licenses all the time actually spend some time also making free software better
[12:27] <KingOfEngland> jono: So the FSF / GNU project don't make any software then?
[12:27] <jono> I don't find endless license debates, which are repeated over and over with no outcome as particularly productive use of our time
[12:27] <jono> KingOfEngland, did I say FSF or GNU?
[12:27] <jono> no I didnt
[12:28] <KingOfEngland> jono: You said people who talk about licenses all the time, so I think that covers the FSF and GNU pretty well - in fact they're the best example
[12:28] <jono> I am talking about people who endlessly debate licenses without helping make free software better
[12:28] <jono> I don't include RMS here
[12:28] <KingOfEngland> Licenses ensure free software exists!
[12:28] <elkbuntu> what jono's getting at..i believe.. is that it would nice if people could manage to walk the walk *as well as* talk the talk
[12:28] <jono> KingOfEngland, of course, but software is more important than licenses
[12:28] <jono> elkbuntu, exactly
[12:28] <KingOfEngland> jono: but software without the right license is not free, so you have to have the license as the primary thing
[12:28] <elkbuntu> :)
[12:29] <Corbeaux> there are different ways to help, some of us cannot code but can write documentation or ilcenses :p
[12:29] <Seveas> KingOfEngland, a license with no software is useless
[12:29] <highvoltage> licenses is pretty much useless if you don't have software to license it under :)
[12:29] <KingOfEngland> OK, I think we can all agree you need both
[12:29] <jayteeuk> jono: I agree with you about the lack of outcome, which essentially means all the debate is a big waste of time... but we can create all the best software in the world, but it'll be no use to anyone if they can't actually use it. :)
[12:29] <mattl> Corbeaux: if you want to help, we're always looking for more webmasters :)
[12:29] <KingOfEngland> all I am saying is that when you veer away from a free license your software ceases to be free
[12:29] <jono> KingOfEngland, sure, and a license is important - but that why I want to see the license discussed as relative to the importance of the software - to me, a license is critical, but its 90% less interesting than having good software that people can use
[12:29] <mnepton> KingOfEngland: i think proper automobile safety is extremyl important. it is an issue that must be discussed, and must evolve to meet changing needs. but at the end of the day, *i'm not an automotive engineer*. my time is best spent providing useful feedback to the automobile industry as a consumer.
[12:30] <Seveas> mnepton, or learn to build cars
[12:30] <mnepton> Seveas: would *you* drive a car i built?
[12:30] <Corbeaux> webmastering never interested me, i cannot code. I like setting up some software once then trying something else.
[12:30] <elkbuntu> Seveas, he'd build a sparkly pink one
[12:30] <mattl> mnepton: or educating other car users about safety?
[12:30] <Seveas> mnepton, no way :)
[12:31] <Admiral_Chicago> it takes a very different person to understand the nuasces of licensing, much like it takes a different person to understand the subtlety of hacking up code, or building a community
[12:31] <Seveas> but there are billions of orher people ;)
[12:31] <mnepton> mattl: i would not be "educating" from an informed POV, since *i am not an automotive engineer*
[12:31] <jono> I just wish some of the people who treasure freedom so rigourously would actually help the free software effort - debating licenses all day and rehashing RMSs views are not productive IMHO
[12:31] <KingOfEngland> Thats a very short term way of looking at things though, if we don't constantly stay on our guard to ensure things remain free then in 10 years you won't be able to write free software because it will have been made illegal, writing code will be impossible from patents, and you will be running in a TPM sandbox
[12:31] <Corbeaux> mnepton: i wouldn't try to build a car myself especially not when there are so many others who are much better at it. Not sure if they can drive as well as I can though
[12:31] <Admiral_Chicago> in the end of the day, we all must play to our streghts to build something phenomenal
[12:31] <mattl> mnepton: i wouldn't say you'd need to be.
[12:31] <jono> KingOfEngland, I don't mind people who talk licensing - so long as they improve the licenses or the way the licenses are used
[12:31] <KingOfEngland> However maligned the license people are, they're like the guidance system on a rocket - sure the rocket people want to make it go faster - but just going 'up' doesnt help much if you veer back down again later on
[12:32] <jono> bloggers who bang on about licensing with no productive outcome are who I am talking aobut
[12:32] <KingOfEngland> jono: They're increasing awareness
[12:32] <jono> KingOfEngland, rubbish
[12:32] <KingOfEngland> jono: !
[12:32] <Admiral_Chicago> jono: you spend too much time on the blogosphere :)
[12:32] <jono> KingOfEngland, awareness is not talking about the issue
[12:32] <mnepton> mattl: i would say that if you propose to "educate" people on any subject, you need to be "educated" in that subject. and "having an opinion" != "educated"
[12:32] <KingOfEngland> jono: Next time I want to blog something I'll get your approval that it is a worthwhile post!
[12:32] <jono> awareness is making things more accessible
[12:32] <jono> KingOfEngland, I never said that
[12:32] <KingOfEngland> jono: You made a blanket statement about bloggers talking about licenses
[12:33] <elkbuntu> you can go blue in the face talking about licencing, you could write this uber awesome licence that is loophole free and makes for certain that even the martians would have freedoms, but that's no use if it's not actually *used* on anything
[12:33] <jono> KingOfEngland, my point is that I would love to see this endless debate about licensing result in better education about licenses - I have seen a lot of debate, but not seen the licensing situation get any better or easier to understand
[12:33] <mattl> elkbuntu: i don't think need more licenses. i think we need less licenses.
[12:33] <KingOfEngland> elkbuntu: Yes but society needs people with different interests and skills, some people are really interested in licenses so they make them, others want to write software but not licenses, and so on
[12:33] <mnepton> KingOfEngland: reductio ad absurdum is a cheap tactic from someone that puts themselves forth as an erudite and educated voice of software licensing issues ;)
[12:33] <KingOfEngland> To suggest they are exclusive pursuits is ridiculous
[12:33] <Seveas> MatthewV, indeed
[12:33] <Seveas> mattl*
[12:34] <mattl> Admiral_Chicago: GPL will do that for you.
[12:34] <KingOfEngland> mnepton: Reductio ad absurdum is an entirely reasonable way of showing the flaws in someones reasoning ;-)
[12:34] <jono> anyway, debating the merits of debating is as equally unproductive :P
[12:34] <jono> I am going back to work :)
[12:34] <Seveas> good call
[12:34] <Admiral_Chicago> mattl: i was joking
[12:34] <mattl> jono: ping me next time you're on a break.
[12:34] <Seveas> no point in wasting time here
[12:34] <jono> mattl, cool stuff :)
[12:34] <elkbuntu> and that's precisely the point ;)
[12:35] <mattl> is there anyone here, who would like to write code, but can't?
[12:35] <Corbeaux> me :)
[12:35] <nate599> meeeeee
[12:35] <PriceChild> mattl me
[12:35] <KingOfEngland> mattl: Does FSF need any Visual Basic coders? I'm really hot on VB3
[12:35] <PriceChild> I'll get round to it one day... :)
[12:35] <elkbuntu> mattl, can, but cbf. i do community stuff instead
[12:36] <nate599> though not for any practical use. just to pass some time and try something new
[12:36] <Admiral_Chicago> my last few words on this: I've convinced people to leave their propriety machines because of the restrictive licensing and switch to Ubuntu, i don't see how being knowledgeable about diferent licenses is limiting in anyway
[12:36] <elkbuntu> annoying people is much more fun than coding
[12:36] <PriceChild> hehe
[12:36] <jono> just clarify one point - when I say help free software, I don't specifically mean coding- I mean docs, marketing, art or anything else
[12:36] <jono> right I really am going back to work now... :P
[12:36] <jono> have fun peeps :)
[12:37] <jayteeuk> ttfn jono
[12:37] <PriceChild> "helping"!!! elkbuntu
[12:37] <Seveas> have fun Lord Bacon
[12:37] <elkbuntu> rofl
[12:37] <jono> :)
[12:40] <Admiral_Chicago> general question: what does documentation involve?
[12:41] <snail> Admiral_Chicago: writing, proofing, translating and testing man pages, wiki pages and html pages
[12:42] <Admiral_Chicago> snail: ah okay i see
[12:42] <Admiral_Chicago> i've helped on some wiki pages but that's all
[12:43] <bakert> hello out there in ubuntu land
[12:43] <Seveas> hi
[12:43] <PriceChild> hi
[12:44] <nate599> top o' the morning
[12:44] <MarkoKaa> hey
[12:45] <bakert> So, I've got a community question.
[12:45] <elkbuntu> bakert, ask away :)
[12:45] <bakert> I'm a programmer.  I use Ubuntu on my laptop.  I'm not a C programmer.  But I have up to 7 years experience of Java, Python, Ruby, Lisp, Perl, etc.
[12:45] <elkbuntu> "dont ask to ask, just ask"
[12:46] <mnepton> bakert: i'm a Gemini. i like cuddling, long walks on the beach, and ponies.
[12:46] <bakert> What should I be doing/can I do to contribute?
[12:46] <bhale> mnepton: i also like cuddling and ponies!
[12:46] <bhale> mnepton: asl?
[12:46] <bakert> I've made about 3 notes on some bugs in launchpad but that's about the size of it.
[12:46] <bakert> What's next?
[12:46] <Seveas> bhale, mnepton: get a room
[12:46] <mnepton> bhale: ageless/neuter/right behind you
[12:47] <Seveas> bakert, what do you like to do?
[12:47] <elkbuntu> bakert, have you been using Linux long?
[12:47] <bhale> you guys are no fun.
[12:47] <mnepton> bakert: what do you enjoy doing? like, what kind of work?
[12:47] <Corbeaux> a/s/l everyone
[12:47] <Corbeaux> j/k
[12:48] <elkbuntu> Seveas, where's ubugtu? I'm feeling this really strong desire to lart people.
[12:48] <Corbeaux> 12/m/next to chavez
[12:48] <bakert> I like writing programs.  I guess something with a UI over something hidden in the depths.  But any program.  I was only a very casual Linux user until I switched to it on my laptop nearly a year ago.
[12:48] <effie_jayx> Corbeaux,  colombia?
[12:49] <mnepton> ?lart elkbuntu
[12:49] <ubuntoid> mnepton: Error: There are no larts in my database for #Ubuntu-freshers.
[12:49] <Corbeaux> neh
[12:49] <mnepton> ?insult elkbuntu
[12:49] <ubuntoid> elkbuntu - You are nothing but a hacked-up bag of impure snake.
[12:49] <Corbeaux> trinidad
[12:49] <elkbuntu> ...
[12:49] <Seveas> mnepton, please remove that bot
[12:49] <pitti> bakert: we have quite a few desktop applications that are written in python
[12:49] <mnepton> roger that
[12:50] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: you may be helpful with patch work
[12:50] <bakert> pitti, yes i've seen a strong favouring of python.  it's what i write in my day job (90% of the time).  not my favourite language but plenty good enough to hack about in.
[12:50] <pitti> bakert: if you particularly like one of them and want to work on it, that'd be highly appreciated, for example
[12:50] <bakert> Admiral_Chicago, what's patch work?
[12:50] <pitti> bakert: but you really shouldn't select things by language, rather select apps/fields you like
[12:50] <Seveas> bakert, fixing bugs
[12:50] <pitti> bakert: e. g. we have lots of things to do that don't involve any coding at all
[12:51] <Admiral_Chicago> well if there is a problem in the code, you fix the bug, make a patch and send it upstream (to the developer that you got the app from)
[12:52] <pitti> bakert: (bug triage, translation, testing, documentation, packaging, etc.)
[12:52] <bakert> So where's the work queue?  Where do I go to pick up a small-ish task to try on for size?  Launchpad?
[12:52] <Admiral_Chicago> yes that too, as pitti, i've been doing a lot of of bug triage myself
[12:52] <pitti> bakert: we do not organize stuff in queues
[12:52] <bakert> The trouble with bug triage is because I am not a Unix guru (believe me, I sit with two all day and they make me feel dumb!)
[12:52] <pitti> bakert: we use Launchpad to track bugs and specifications
[12:52] <bakert> I think that my comments probably won't be useful
[12:52] <apokryphos> Will Ubuntu *ever* be BiArch compatible? This is one thing that gets to me a little, since some other distros have had it for absolutely ages.
[12:52] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: i'm not a guru at all, I've been using for about a year as wel
[12:52] <bhale> apokryphos: question for tollef.
[12:52] <bhale> Mithrandir rather
[12:52] <apokryphos> There was a lot of hype for this, for Edgy+Smart, but that seems to have all died down and gone quietly into the distance. Though I agree with what most people are saying -- these changes need to be into dpkg
[12:53] <pitti> bakert: i. e. look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs -> new stuff, or https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs -> bugs
[12:53] <bhale> apokryphos: ..question for mvo
[12:53] <pitti> bakert: I think those two are our main 'queues'
[12:53] <apokryphos> bhale: thanks; dang, not around.
[12:53] <apokryphos> bhale: yeah, he was doing the smart stuff. Must ask him what happened to it.
[12:53] <pitti> bakert: we also discussed maintaining a list of bite-sized easy tasks for starters
[12:53] <pitti> bakert: since these two systems (bugs/specs) are really overwhelming for new folks
[12:54] <pitti> bakert: so far your best bet is really to choose what you would like to do, ask in the devel channel, and then get in contact with someone who already works on that area
[12:54] <pitti> bakert: or, if noone is working on it already, someone who can guide you
[12:56] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: i can show you some work i've done on LP mysely that might give you a sense about haw you can help
[12:58] <apokryphos> and I am kidding ;-). Xchat is a pretty nice scriptable IRC client
[12:58] <apokryphos> far better than konversation, even if it isn't as pretty
[12:58] <apokryphos> but I still prefer xchat. It works just as I want it to.
[12:59] <Admiral_Chicago> apokryphos: i've heard that about Konversation as well but it is still in version 1.0.
[12:59] <apokryphos> konversation has too much legacy code at the moment which is blocking out a lot of the configurability/proper-scripting that you'd want to do
[12:59] <apokryphos> apparently this will be sorted for kde4
[01:00] <bakert> Admiral_Chicago, what's LP?
[01:00] <bakert> pitti, thanks for your advice
[01:00] <Admiral_Chicago> good, i really like it, it works for me
[01:00] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: launchpad
[01:00] <bakert> Admiral_Chicago, yes please that would be good
[01:00] <Admiral_Chicago> give me a sec to find some good ones
[01:00] <apokryphos> Admiral_Chicago: as an average users' IRC client I'd probably recommend it first, most certainly. Just if you're hardcore scripting IRC freak :P
[01:01] <Admiral_Chicago> apokryphos: yes then you go with irssi or something that handles scripts better, but it's not all bad
[01:02] <apokryphos> agreed
[01:02] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: okay look at this one
[01:02] <Admiral_Chicago> https://launchpad.net/bugs/72518
[01:03] <Admiral_Chicago> many times users will submit feature requests as bugs, however they are not bugs
[01:04] <Admiral_Chicago> this particular page is really dialogue with the user, it's not a bug or support request.
[01:05] <bakert> I see.  I know this is a daft question, but how did you know what to say?
[01:05] <bakert> Packages and stuff like that is a bit of a mystery to me.
[01:05] <Admiral_Chicago> i did a little research, a google search really
[01:06] <Admiral_Chicago> found the developers page, read that
[01:06] <bakert> I see.  So you don't have encyclopaedic knowledge of how ubuntu works ... you just looked it up on the spur of this question.
[01:06] <bakert> ?
[01:06] <Admiral_Chicago> looked at the license, and that turned out to be okay (licensing is important when packaging at times)
[01:06] <Admiral_Chicago> yes
[01:06] <cjwatson> actually that sort of thing is a moderately legitimate request for the ubuntu-archive team, which we do handle as bugs
[01:06] <bakert> right, cool, so maybe i should stop worrying about being perfect and just get stuck in?
[01:06] <cjwatson> although we normally don't need that for importing new packages unless we're in some kind of freeze
[01:06] <cjwatson> (may not happen instantly, though)
[01:07] <Admiral_Chicago> cjwatson: i took it as wishlist that would be assigned to someone
[01:07] <cjwatson> of course from the course of the bug it turns out not to be a plain "sync this package from Debian" request but a "this package needs serious fixup" request
[01:07] <cjwatson> which is legitimate for somebody in motu
[01:07] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: so lets look at the comments, the second one was mine
[01:08] <cjwatson> since aiccu's in feisty/multiverse now, I've shifted that bug from "Ubuntu" to "Ubuntu (aiccu)"
[01:08] <cjwatson> er, "aiccu (Ubuntu)"
[01:08] <Admiral_Chicago> i went on #ubuntu-motu and asked some questions (MOTU = masters of the universe)
[01:08] <cjwatson> in other words, it has been imported from Debian already, but if it's old and broken, a MOTU member needs to look at it
[01:09] <Admiral_Chicago> cjwatson: i'm learning packaging and hopefully can help with that
[01:09] <Admiral_Chicago> they told me the link to the wiki page that i posted
[01:09] <cjwatson> hmm, should add myself for "archive maintenance" on the UbuntuFreshersDay page
[01:09] <Admiral_Chicago> next was the discussion about licensing which was just claryfing what was on the webpage
[01:09] <Admiral_Chicago> done
[01:10] <bakert> i see
[01:10] <elkbuntu> cjwatson, might as well, if you're willing to answer questions
[01:11] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: one more: https://launchpad.net/bugs/72522 was some odd issues i saw with Konversation
[01:11] <cjwatson> Admiral_Chicago: it's not "free as in speech" by our licensing rules, I'm afraid
[01:11] <bakert> so the process would be ... visit bugs or specs ... google around the topic ... visit #ubuntu-motu if necessary to get any further ... document each step on launchpad ... are there zillions of other groups like #ubuntu-motu or is that where you always end up when you can go no further?
[01:11] <cjwatson> Admiral_Chicago: e.g. you have to tell the upstream authors about certain kinds of modifications. that's why it's in multiverse
[01:12] <cjwatson> it's not very far on the wrong side of that line, but nevertheless I do feel it's on the wrong side
[01:12] <Admiral_Chicago> bakert: well #ubuntu-bugs is a good place to start asking questions
[01:12] <Admiral_Chicago> cjwatson: i understand
[01:12] <bakert> aha ... assume there is a list of these on the wiki or something?
[01:12] <cjwatson> (just a mild correction to your note on the bug)
[01:13] <Admiral_Chicago> yes there should be one
[01:13] <Admiral_Chicago> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
[01:13] <Admiral_Chicago> so if we return to this bug which I found annoying https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/konversation/+bug/72522
[01:13] <Admiral_Chicago> I asked someone to confirm it, and they did (RJ marsan)
[01:13] <Admiral_Chicago> err Jucato i mean
[01:14] <bakert> right
[01:14] <Admiral_Chicago> the four comment was from the Konversation team, (KDE) which handles Konversation
[01:15] <Admiral_Chicago> very few programs are actually written by Ubuntu
[01:15] <Admiral_Chicago> so I sent it "upstram" to the KDE team
[01:16] <bakert> So "upstream" just means contacting someone not specifically associated with Ubuntu.
[01:16] <bakert> They actually made comments on launchpad, though.
[01:16] <Admiral_Chicago> they use a different bug tracker, so I registed at bugs.kde.org and got this leik http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137758
[01:17] <Admiral_Chicago> they do, but to monitor KDE wide bugs or distro related bugs
[01:17] <Admiral_Chicago> it's quite possible that teh Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu, and Knoppix bug trackers all report this
[01:17] <Admiral_Chicago> then it is a KDE problem
[01:18] <Admiral_Chicago> but if only ubuntu reports it, maybe there was a problem with the package
[01:18] <bakert> i see
[01:20] <Admiral_Chicago> it's part of the idea of co-operation
[01:20] <bakert> so if you spy a bug that is part of a program you then go and put it in their bug tracker?
[01:21] <bakert> and report back to the ubuntu thread if they don't come on there and post updates?
[01:21] <effie_jayx> is an upgrade from dapper to edgy too much of a hassle... ???
[01:22] <Admiral_Chicago> effie_jayx: if you use easyubuntu/automatix/backport, maybe
[01:22] <PriceChild> or old compiz-quinn
[01:22] <effie_jayx> nope... no automatix here
[01:23] <Admiral_Chicago> hmm, maybe
[01:23] <apokryphos> effie_jayx: if you follow the guide you should be ok.
[01:23] <effie_jayx> it took me a while to get of hoary...
[01:23] <effie_jayx> :D
[01:23] <effie_jayx> I did an update from hoary to breezy
[01:23] <Admiral_Chicago> it took me a long time to get on dapper
[01:23] <apokryphos> effie_jayx: check the FAQ in #ubuntu channel topic
[01:24] <effie_jayx> I'm cool with it
[01:24] <effie_jayx> apokryphos,  sorry
[01:24] <effie_jayx> my question was ... is it worth doing and update rather than a fresh install...
[01:24] <effie_jayx> but a frsh isntall
[01:24] <effie_jayx> is a fresh install
[01:24] <effie_jayx> so
[01:24] <effie_jayx> dumb question
[01:25] <cjwatson> generally we do try hard to support upgrades
[01:25] <cjwatson> if you haven't heavily messed with the set of installed packages, it is unlikely to be a problem if you follow the guide
[01:26] <cjwatson> doing a fresh install means you have to back up your data, etc.; hassle
[01:27] <nilsflens> Does anyone know about dual core support and ubuntu? Should it work out of the box or will I have to build a new kernel or something tricky?
[01:27] <PriceChild> should work out of the box
[01:27] <PriceChild> (i think)
[01:27] <noctua> I've a AMD 64 X2 and it works out of the box!
[01:27] <Admiral_Chicago> nilsflens: it works
[01:28] <bakert> cjwatson, effie_jayx, i think you should back up your data anyway before doing an upgrade!
[01:28] <bakert> maybe i'm just paranoid
[01:28] <Admiral_Chicago> it's going to be a pain with non-free programs like flash + w32codecs and what not
[01:28] <effie_jayx> nope
[01:28] <effie_jayx> you are not
[01:29] <nilsflens> Admiral_Chicago: good to hear it works!
[01:29] <mruiz> ping Seveas
[01:29] <cjwatson> bakert: don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea, but it's not quite so strenuously required
[01:29] <stiffme1983> hi everyone
[01:29] <cjwatson> Ubuntu upgrades don't touch /home, your partitioning, whatever; installs are practically guaranteed to
[01:30] <cjwatson> (at least partitioning, to some degree)
[01:30] <SFA_AOK> nils - I've got a Core 2 Duo and Edgy works fine with it
[01:30] <nilsflens> shouldn't everyone back up data regurlarly, anyway, even without upgrades or fresh installations?!?
[01:31] <cjwatson> nilsflens: yes
[01:31] <nilsflens> SFA_AOK: Core 2 Duo, that will be mine as well, fine!
[01:32] <SFA_AOK> nils - it was one of the issues ironed out on the release to Edgy (I think cjwatson may have been involved with backporting kernel patches to make it work - if so, thanks cjwatson  :)
[01:32] <bakert> yes, but there is no good backup software!  i need something that requires zero maintenance.
[01:32] <bakert> as it is i barely get around to it every 6 weeks.  not good enough!
[01:33] <pitti> bakert: setting up automatic backup is not something that can happen fully automatically
[01:33] <pitti> bakert: you will always need to specify backup medium, mode, target, etc.
[01:36] <cjwatson> SFA_AOK: thanks for the credit, but I'm not a kernel guy
[01:36] <cjwatson> sounds more like BenC
[01:36] <SFA_AOK> ahh yes, you're in charge of the installer aren't you? I think you helped with the bugs I filed on that. So thanks are still due :)
[01:39] <bakert> pitti, sorry i didn't mean to say ubuntu (or whatever) wasn't good enough ... i meant MY behaviour!
[01:39] <bakert> pitti, i'm too lazy!
[01:40] <bakert> the world does need a nice painless backup solution though
[01:40] <pitti> bakert: same as I
[01:40] <bakert> there's lots being worked on so hopefully a great one will emerge
[01:40] <pitti> bakert: a backup system should just work automatically
[01:40] <pitti> bakert: e. g. I have an automatic daily network backup I don't need to care about
[01:40] <bakert> maybe i should work on that.  that's a real thankless task though -- all you need is one nasty bug and you are going to serrrrrrriously upset people.
[01:41] <pitti> bakert: sivang is working on hubackup ATM (yay python :) )
[01:41] <pitti> bakert: however, I doubt that there is *the* backup system
[01:41] <pitti> bakert: hubackup is aimed at home users (ubuntu-like)
[01:42] <pitti> bakert: my backup system is entirely script driven, etc.
[01:42] <pitti> bakert: but maybe you just found a good field what to do in Ubuntu :)
[01:42] <pitti> bakert: and I wouldn't call it thankless -- I had much fun writing my backup stuff, and once you have a good solution, people will love you for it
[01:43] <stiffme1983> does ubuntu support bluetooth smoothly?
[01:43] <cjwatson> SFA_AOK: that's me, yeah; you're welcome
[01:47] <bakert> pitti, true - thankless is the wrong word.  but it could get ugly!
[01:47] <pitti> bakert: right, it's not a trivial task at all, but certainly a rewarding one
[01:58] <zul> hi
[01:58] <apokryphos> hi zul
[01:59] <Admiral_Chicago> stiffme1983: i've heard so
[02:02] <Lesley> Heelllloooo!
[02:03] <pitti> Lesley: welcome in the channel
[02:04] <Lesley> do we ask questions here or post them elsewhere?
[02:04] <pitti> Lesley: here is fine
[02:04] <Lesley> cool
[02:04] <pitti> Lesley: that's the whole point of this channel and day :)
[02:05] <Lesley> I feel very irritable on this Friday - I have been trying to sign the code of conduct and cannot get it right??
[02:06] <pitti> Lesley: which step failed?
[02:06] <Lesley> the first step - and dont laugh!
[02:07] <pitti> Lesley: ok, which instructions did you follow? they might need improvement
[02:08] <Lesley> this is the first time I have tried an online signature and trust me if you have no reference point it is foreign - who can I phone?
[02:09] <pitti> Lesley: ok, please describe what you tried to do
[02:10] <Lesley> It says - create your own pgp key
[02:10] <pitti> aah :)
[02:10] <pitti> and you don't have one?
[02:10] <Lesley> no
[02:12] <Lesley> oh you call it a gpg key not a pgp key!
[02:12] <pitti> Lesley: you might try and install the 'seahorse' package, which should be able to create a key for you
[02:13] <pitti> Lesley: but please make sure to read about the basics of digital cryptography
[02:13] <pitti> Lesley: so that you know the difference between a public and a private key, how to handle them properly, etc.
[02:13] <binary2k2> guide for that here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
[02:13] <pitti> Lesley: that's pretty important, since in a digital world, your key is your identity and involves privileges and credibility
[02:13] <pitti> binary2k2: cheers
[02:14] <Lesley> ok - will do homework on it, but I still think i need a gorgeous geek to visit me and help! tx anyway :-)
[02:14] <pitti> Lesley: don't worry, reading about what a key is and how to handle is is not very geekish
[02:15] <pitti> Lesley: it's largely equivalent to real-world things like passports, home keys, and trusting other people
[02:17] <Lesley> ok - I have some picture books at home on keys and security, but still think a gorgeous geek would be a bonus!
[02:17] <pitti> Lesley: admittedly it could not hurt :)
[02:17] <mruiz> ping seb128
[02:17] <Lesley> ;-)
[02:18] <pitti> Lesley: in the meantime, consider us your remote geek channel :)
[02:18] <Lesley> ok
[02:19] <pitti> but, please read the documentation first, of course
[02:19] <Lesley> I am a homework girl!
[02:19] <palski> pitti: if the package doesn't have any patching system you really should not add one?
[02:19] <palski> and why?
[02:20] <pitti> palski: did I say that?
[02:20] <pitti> palski: it depends, I'd say
[02:20] <palski> Somebody said that to me
[02:20] <pitti> palski: if it's an one-line patch, the delta for the patch system would be much bigger than the patch itself
[02:20] <pitti> i. e. harder to merge with Debian
[02:21] <pitti> palski: but if there are more patches, or a larger one, then adding the three lines to debian/rules (plus the buid depdendency) can't hurt
[02:21] <palski> ok, this is oneliner so no patching system is needed, thanks
[02:22] <cjwatson> palski: also, if the package already has patches applied in a certain way, you should follow the same approach
[02:22] <palski> sure
[02:23] <cjwatson> it's generally not a good idea to repackage something unless you're taking over the maintenance of the package in the most-upstream location (i.e. Debian if it's a package that comes from Debian, or Ubuntu if it's a native-to-Ubuntu package)
[02:25] <pitti> palski: I generally agree to cjwatson, unless there are several patches which are likely to not make it into Debian; if we have to maintain them on our own, then adding the three lines of dpatch runes is relatively cheap
[02:25] <pitti> palski: but, by and large, I'd call this a matter of common sense
[02:26] <pitti> palski: but this combined inline/patch system approach is very uncommon and probably confusing, too
[02:27] <palski> ok, this is clear to me now, thanks pitti and cjwatson
[02:30] <rmjb> hello room
[02:31] <laszlok> Does anyone else think this is a good idea? (excuse the shamless blog promotion) http://laszlok2.blogspot.com/2006/11/there-has-been-lot-of-talk-lately-about_26.html
[02:31] <rmjb> so how did everyone find the sessions in the week?
[02:31] <rmjb> what teams are you all going to try to join?
[02:32] <CVirus>  #ubuntu-classroom
[02:32] [MatthewV(n=MatthewV@202.183.119.137)]  help
[02:32] <CVirus> oops
[02:32] <CVirus> sorry
[02:32] <MatthewV> btw all, where does ubuntulog log to?
[02:32] <Seeker`> rmjb: They were good, and MOTU
[02:32] <Hobbsee> MatthewV: see !logs
[02:33] <MatthewV> thanks Hobbsee
[02:33] <Hobbsee> on a channel ubotu is in
[02:33] <elkbuntu> or pm the bot
[02:33] <rmjb> Seeker`: yeah I'm trying on MOTU also
[02:33] <rmjb> Seeker`: you've got packaging experience from another distro?
[02:34] <cjwatson> laszlok: not sure, but it sounds like a graphical version of vrms :-)
[02:35] <laszlok> ahh, so it already exists...
[02:35] <cjwatson> not in the same form, but an earlier version of a similar dea
[02:35] <cjwatson> idea
[02:36] <rmjb> seeing that there are ubuntu devs in here, should "new" contributers like the ones Open Week were targeting use the Herd1 CD that's to be out soon?
[02:37] <Hobbsee> rmjb: it's easier to fix bugs that way.  but you'll also get more bugs.
[02:37] <cjwatson> depends on exactly what you're trying to do, but it's often a good idea for developer contributors to follow feisty, yes
[02:37] <cjwatson> if you also depend on your system to get work done, it might be a good idea to dual-boot with dapper/edgy or whatever
[02:37] <Seeker`> rmjb: Nope, I'm only just starting to get involved in the development side of things. I merged my first package on monday
[02:38] <GazzaK> Question: If I'm never gonna make a programmer, how can I help Ubuntu?
[02:39] <binary2k2> GazzaK: maybe join a LoCo group :p
[02:39] <cjwatson> GazzaK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[02:39] <GazzaK> :p  well I did that bit
[02:39] <Seeker`> GazzaK: Keeping popey under control will probably help too :P
[02:40] <binary2k2> documentation need good people too
[02:40] <GazzaK> well I try to do that, but he keeps leaving his house out a window
[02:41] <rmjb> Seeker`: what package did you merge? How'd you do it? I tried to do a sync but...
[02:43] <Seeker`> rmjb: I did eterm, and I partly followed a guide and got quite a bit of help in #ubuntu-motu
[02:44] <GazzaK> cool, I seem to be doing almost as much as I can, without learning code
[02:44] <elkbuntu> every little bit counts, GazzaK :)
[02:45] <rmjb> Seeker`: so your merged version made it into feisty?
[02:45] <GazzaK> I'm trying to be the LUG master for my area too, as the current ones seem to have given up
[02:45] <Seeker`> rmjb: yep
[02:46] <rmjb> wow... congrats
[02:47] <elkbuntu> GazzaK, remember to at least feign neutrality
[02:48] <Seeker`> thanks
[02:48] <Seeker`> i may try to find another package to do tonight
[02:49] <rmjb> you tried any packaging from scratch?
[02:50] <Seeker`> not yet
[02:50] <Seeker`> i dont know enough about it
[02:50] <rmjb> the packaging guide is really good, it's what I used:
[02:51] <rmjb> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
[02:53] <rmjb> and there's a whole host of applications to package that users have submitted: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates
[02:53] <jono> nice and full here :)
[02:54] <elkbuntu> and it's only early yet
[02:54] <rmjb> jono: I have a suggestion for the next open week
[02:54] <rmjb> whenever it will be
[02:54] <GazzaK> openweek has been so excellent \o/
[02:54] <jono> rmjb, cool
[02:55] <Lesley> I agree
[02:55] <jono> :)
[02:55] <rmjb> some sort of web irc tool, for those of us stuck in the office
[02:56] <Lesley> Jono, plse may we have a class on security - keys, passports, tunnels etc!
[02:56] <jono> Lesley, sounds good
[02:57] <MatthewV> Seveas, you said something to me?
[02:57] <Seveas> MatthewV, <tab> error
[02:58] <MatthewV> Seveas, ok no probs :)
[02:58] <bakert> elkbuntu, it's 2pm here!
[02:58] <elkbuntu> bakert, yes. your point?
[02:58] <elkbuntu> :
[02:58] <elkbuntu> it's 1am here. 2pm is early in comparison :)
[02:58] <bakert> elkbuntu, just keeping it international!  (you said, "it's only early yet")
[02:59] <rmjb> 1am is early... in the morning
[03:00] <elkbuntu> yes, insanely
[03:02] <elkbuntu> Lesley, are you aware that there are often classes held of a weekend in #ubuntu-classroom?
[03:03] <elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom has more information :)
[03:03] <Lesley> no, but now i do! tx!
[03:03] <Lesley> where do i get info on topics and times
[03:03] <elkbuntu> Lesley, the above link
[03:03] <Lesley> cool
[03:04] <elkbuntu> there's a huge flood of classes from this week, and the class cycle is nearing an end, but keep an eye there and im sure something will pop up that interests you :)
[03:04] <Lesley> yea - security!
[03:05] <rmjb> Lesley: you can even subscribe to the page, to be notified when it's changed
[03:05] <Lesley> will do
[03:17] <rmjb> How many Microsoft executives does it take to change a light bulb?
[03:17] <rmjb> 1) 1001. One to install the new bulb, plus one thousand lawyers to assert intellectual property rights over every light bulb ever invented.
[03:18] <rmjb> 2) Microsoft doesn't change light bulbs. It declares Darkness (TM) the new standard.
[03:19] <Seeker`> So is herd 1 due for release in the next couple of days?
[03:19] <cjwatson> Seeker`: yeah, assuming we can get it to work
[03:19] <cjwatson> ubuntu-devel-announce is the mailing list to read for news of that
[03:34] <rmjb> so where can I get some ubuntu or kubuntu swag for christmas?
[03:35] <Lesley> america on-line
[03:36] <abattoir> rmjb: http://www.cafepress.com/ubuntushop/
[03:37] <rmjb> abattoir: thanks, no kubuntu swag?
[03:37] <abattoir> rmjb: looking...
[03:37] <abattoir> i think kubuntu-de had some
[03:38] <abattoir> http://www.kubuntu.de/shop/catalog/index.php?cPath=30
[03:38] <abattoir> it's europe based though, if you aren't there
[03:39] <Lesley> Irmjb: im going to make my own swag - will let you know when it happens!
[03:41] <rmjb> cool... kubuntu needs some t-shirts though
[03:41] <abattoir> i'm sure there are some.. just need to find where...
[03:42] <Lesley> ok! will look into it!
[03:45] <juliux> rmjb, in germany are also polo and t-shirts available
[03:45] <juliux> if you are interested message me
[03:46] <abattoir> rmjb: imbrandon might be able to get you some kubuntu merchandise
[03:46] <imbrandon> the Kubuntu shirts Riddell has and is selling, I will get the link posted to where to find them on kubuntu.org when he gets back this weekend
[03:47] <Lesley> Is there any merchandise in South Africa?
[03:48] <melter> are there any official "Powered By Ubuntu" logos?
[03:49] <rmjb> melter: yep see www.system76.com
[03:49] <binary2k2> aren't they free with a sae? or am i thinking of somthing else?
[03:49] <rmjb> I wanna get a t-shirt with a BIG ubuntu logo on the back... and I guess something on the front
[03:50] <Jucato> hm... "Kubuntu" in front, logo at the back? :)
[03:50] <melter> rmjb: actually, i'm looking for 88x31 png images, like something i'd put on a web site powered by ubuntu
[03:50] <rmjb> oh I thought you meant for your PC
[03:51] <GazzaK> http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/data/549/Ubuntu-UK_shirt.jpg  these were made by the Ubuntu-UK team recently, nice eh
[03:51] <Lesley> My best bet is to design my own swag - Paris Hilton is so "yesterday"
[03:52] <binary2k2> yay Ubuntu-UK team
[03:52] <rmjb> that's nice
[03:52] <rmjb> I wonder if jono is seeing all this swag talk
[03:52] <GazzaK> I'm wearing it now, it's lovely
[03:53] <jono> rmjb, I am now
[03:53] <Jucato> heh
[03:53] <Seeker`> GazzaK: Where can you get those from?
[03:54] <Lesley> well! i know how to design a Tee-shirt thats hot for chicks!
[03:54] <jono> ok, so no one actually needs me :P
[03:54] <GazzaK> Seeker`, it's a secret
[03:54] <jono> go ahead and print shirts :)
[03:54] <jono> and send me one :P
[03:54] <GazzaK> I need you
[03:54] <Jucato> heh
[03:54] <Seeker`> GazzaK: Tell me in PM then :P
[03:55] <imbrandon> heya jono
[03:55] <jono>  heya imbrandon
[03:55] <GazzaK> seriously, the polo shirts were a limited run by LoudMouthMan for the linuxworld2006 expo
[03:55] <jono> the polo shirts were awesome
[03:56] <Seeker`> aww
[03:56] <GazzaK> 14 a pop too, pricey, but worth every penny
[03:56] <Seeker`> thats not too bad for a polo shirt
[03:56] <Lesley> yes we do need you , jono- too see if the tees meet with your approval!
[03:56] <imbrandon> thats not bad for a polo
[03:56] <jono> Lesley, hehe
[03:56] <GazzaK> and it was stitched, not a silly iron off (hehe) sticker
[03:57] <jono> I want to see some BACON FOR PRESIDENT t-shirts :P
[03:57] <jono> thats what we need
[03:57] <imbrandon> Lesley == lh == SoC Lesley ?
[03:57] <jono> or maybe BACON FOR A BRIGHTER FUTURE
[03:57] <jono> :P
[03:57] <Jucato> lol
[03:57] <Lesley> bring home the bacon!!!
[03:57] <GazzaK> we have a popey for president (I mean member) placards in the workings
[03:58] <imbrandon> bacon for prez, coleslaw for vice
[03:58] <imbrandon> :)
[03:58] <GazzaK> ummm bacon, I'm starving :'(
[03:58] <bSON> hi+
[03:59] <imbrandon> hello bSON
[04:00] <binary2k2> GazzaK: you'll scare jono off sayin that
[04:00] <imbrandon> jono: we need to get a page together with all the ubuntu related swag links on the wiki ( so people can add / remove links as needed )
[04:00] <GazzaK> lol
[04:01] <imbrandon> like people that are selling ( even short runs ) of T's etc
[04:01] <imbrandon> or like system76 giving away stickers iirc
[04:02] <Lesley> Yes, I agree
[04:02] <jono> back
[04:03] <imbrandon> Lesley: are you SoC Lesley ?
[04:03] <abattoir> imbrandon: i think she's Leslie
[04:03] <Lesley> what does that mean
[04:03] <jono> imbrandon, yeah a page like that would be good
[04:03] <imbrandon> Lesley: Summer of Code, e.g our google hostest
[04:04] <imbrandon> err was
[04:04] <imbrandon> jono: yea
[04:04] <rmjb> I guess I should really work while I'm at work... :(
[04:04] <Seveas> imbrandon, that was Leslie :)
[04:04] <Lesley> trust me - i plan to make cape town the hottest ubuntu place to be!
[04:04] <imbrandon> Seveas: ahhh
[04:04] <imbrandon> rmjb: dont feel bad i'm in the office too, but its SLOW today
[04:05] <imbrandon> most of the town is shutdown due to snow storms
[04:05] <Seveas> imbrandon, and now that I see you, imbrandon.sytes.net:10022 does not respond (and hasn't for quite a while)
[04:05] <imbrandon> Seveas: yea its not on an ups
[04:05] <imbrandon> i'll fix it tonight
[04:05] <Seveas> merci
[04:05] <imbrandon> i shut down all the non ups boxen a day or so ago when the storm hit
[04:06] <imbrandon> but the worst is over, i'll bring it back up tonight
[04:06] <melter> rmjb: i found some: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WebsiteButtons :)
[04:06] <LjL> Seveas: what about the pastebin?
[04:06] <imbrandon> Seveas: btw that hostname is likely to go away soonish, i have a new one for you ( same IP )
[04:07] <Jucato> melter: nice find. thanks for sharing
[04:07] <Seveas> LjL, that's waiting for mitsuhiko or smurf to wake up and do a dns change
[04:07] <Seveas> all of ubuntu-nl.org is now dead
[04:07] <Jucato> any Kubuntu Website Buttons available?
[04:08] <abattoir> Jucato: you can take the one on kubuntu.org ;)
[04:08] <Amaranth> imbrandon: send some of that snow up here :)
[04:08] <Jucato> abattoir: please make one for me :P
[04:08] <binary2k2> Jucato: http://tinyurl.com/wb3nj
[04:09] <Jucato> binary2k2: oh thanks... Google... :)
[04:09] <binary2k2> google is, indeed, your friend :p
[04:10] <Jucato> it's Ubuntu's friend too :P
[04:10] <imbrandon> ok back in a bit guys
[04:10] <imbrandon> ( few minutes )
[04:13] <mattmole> hi all
[04:13] <binary2k2> hi mattmole
[04:14] <z4k4ri4> hi, is there a community for ubuntu sysadmin?
[04:14] <mattmole> I wouldnt call myself a newbie, but not an expert either. Just a full time user who attempts to play around with different things. Such as nfs, samba, shell scripts ...
[04:23] <KenMikaze> hello
[04:24] <LjL> fabbione: i've seen your System Integrity Check specification while i was looking for way to do... the very same thing. a couple of questions: why don't the .md5 files in pkgsum follow md5sum's standard format (checksum, two spaces, filename, newline, IIRC), which is also the format md5sums files in .deb's use? what about SHA1 - really, what would they add (ok, perhaps a bit stronger, but given the other shortcomings...)? and, i guess you
[04:24] <LjL> thought about making the checksums files part of the repositories themselves (perhaps also consulting the Debian folk for coordination), what are the counterindications to that?
[04:24] <greguti> hello all
[04:26] <greguti> My question: I have a tiny little personal blog about ubuntu, in french, how do I "subscribe" to my local planet.ubuntu stuff?
[04:26] <gumpa> Howdy folks. I'm interested in IRC logs of the Launchpad session yesterday, but file where I would expect to find it is empty
[04:26] <gumpa> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/launchpad-meeting-current.html
[04:26] <seb128> greguti: contact the ubuntu-fr.org guys probably
[04:27] <PriceChild>  hey i'm abck
[04:27] <seb128> greguti: or try #ubuntu-fr
[04:27] <greguti> ok thanks
[04:27] <seb128> greguti: the french planet is not managed by Ubuntu but by the french community around Ubuntu
[04:27] <seb128> np
[04:28] <abattoir> gumpa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_UsingLaunchpad
[04:28] <abattoir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/OpenWeek_UsingLaunchpad2 was yesterday's session
[04:28] <gumpa> abattoir: thanks
[04:28] <abattoir> no problem
[04:37] <Squido> cjwatson: is there going to be built-in support for installing ubuntu on machines that can't boot from CD-ROM? Like debian?
[04:38] <binary2k2> Squido: ubuntu already has that
[04:38] <PriceChild> wow does it?
[04:39] <binary2k2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues
[04:39] <binary2k2> opps, wrong link :p
[04:39] <juliux> Squido, you can install them via pxe;)
[04:39] <binary2k2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation
[04:39] <jorgp> Squido, I think you will find, ubuntu will do 99% of what debian does
[04:39] <binary2k2> loads of different ways, netboot, floppy, iso on a ntfs partition ... etc
[04:40] <Squido> I'll try that... thanks.
[04:41] <Jucato> is this channel going to be permanent?
[04:41] <Squido> I guess my whinge is that the debian boot disks always worked, even with my (very) old hardware.
[04:46] <pointwood> not sure if this belongs here, but...what editor/IDE do you use for python development? (I'm using Kubuntu)
[04:47] <Flying_Eagle> hey
[04:47] <abattoir> pointwood: kate :)
[04:47] <pointwood> k :)
[04:47] <PriceChild> pointwood: You can use any editor you want really...?
[04:48] <Jucato> Kate? KDevelop?
[04:48] <pitti> kvim! *duck*
[04:48] <Jucato> lol
[04:48] <hastesaver> kemacs!
[04:48] <pointwood> yeah, I know, just wondered whether there were any IDE that had some features that was nice when developing
[04:48] <abattoir> pointwood: you can use the terminal tab at the bottom to execute the file from w/i kate
[04:48] <pitti> pointwood: kdevelop is a pretty big beast, but reasonably useful, if you like IDEs
[04:49] <hastesaver> Is there a kvim, BTW?
[04:49] <pointwood> pitti: but from what I read last night, it isn't that optimal for python dev.
[04:49] <pitti> oh, python
[04:50] <pitti> hastesaver: (I don't think so)
[04:50] <Jucato> I thought there *was* (kvim)
[04:51] <pointwood> http://dot.kde.org/1018455930/
[04:51] <pointwood> Jucato: looks like you're right :)
[04:51] <pointwood> there *was*
[04:52] <Jucato> :)
[04:52] <pointwood> the link to kvim in that article doesn't work
[04:53] <Flying_Eagle> pointwood, i write all my python-stuff in kate
[04:53] <Flying_Eagle> works quite good
[04:53] <pointwood> anyway, it sounds like there isn't any IDE that is the preferred one for python by most people
[04:53] <pointwood> Kate it is :)
[04:54] <fabbione> LjL: sorry i don't have time to explain all that stuff right now. There are several reasons for each of the points. Ping me on monday and if i have time i will explain
[04:54] <LjL> ok fabbione
[04:54] <pointwood> I just got an itch to try developing a bit in python :)
[04:55] <jono> pointwood, woo!
[04:56] <pointwood> hehe
[04:56] <pointwood> I'm primarily familiar with java
[04:56] <Jucato> I have an itch to study programming (C++) :P
[04:56] <pointwood> a bit of javascript and a bit of php
[04:57] <pointwood> Jucato: hehe, yeah, me too, I would like to learn to program with Qt, but...
[04:57] <pointwood> now python just "dropped into my lap" :)
[04:57] <Jucato> silly question: knowledge of programming is necessary in packaging, right?
[04:57] <Jucato> pointwood: you got bitten by the snake
[04:57] <gregbuntu> hi everyone. i am also a java developer... i gather that many FOSS programs are python + GTK (or Qt), correct?
[04:58] <hastesaver> Jucato, not necessarily :-) (Ubuntu's packaging is as simple as "copy over from Debian" and do find/replace :-))
[04:58] <hastesaver> Jucato, *sometimes* as simple as...
[04:58] <hastesaver> sorry
[04:58] <abattoir> gregbuntu: yes, there are a lot of pyGTK and PyQT programs
[04:59] <Jucato> Ubuntu is in love with Python :)
[04:59] <pointwood> Jucato: hehe, the hype, the damn hype! :P
[04:59] <pitti> Jucato: packaging and programming are pretty orthogonal
[04:59] <abattoir> Jucato: i guess a little knowledge of bash scripting might come in handy... else you don't need to know much...
[04:59] <pitti> Jucato: in principle at least; of course, as a package maintainer, you often deal with code, too
[04:59] <pitti> Jucato: but the actual packaging bits are not related to programming
[04:59] <sabdfl> hey freshers!
[05:00] <gregbuntu> from perspective of cross-platform apps, py* is a good approach also?
[05:00] <Lesley> hey! dude
[05:00] <pitti> Jucato: packaging is mainly 'build the damn thing' and 'put the various files into the right place/package'
[05:00] <sabdfl> no bowing needed
[05:00] <pitti> sabdfl: hey Mark!
[05:00] <Jucato> pitti: ah. thanks.
[05:00] <abattoir> gregbuntu: cross-platform as in?
[05:00] <Jucato> pitti: Ubuntu Packaging Guide a good place to start for absolutel newbies?
[05:00] <abattoir> gregbuntu: i guess they run on Windows and Mac OSX too
[05:00] <sabdfl> pitti leading the charge most admirably, i see :-)
[05:00] <pointwood> Jucato: This is specifically what I'm looking at: http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/index.html
[05:00] <gregbuntu> abattoir: as in windows, *nix, osx
[05:01] <pitti> sabdfl: great day and great response indeed here
[05:01] <pointwood> hi sabdfl/overlord
[05:01] <pointwood> ;)
[05:01] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: is it a snow day for you too? :)
[05:01] <Jucato> pointwood: heh yeah that series of books. the C++ version is a bit too heavy for a beginner though
[05:01] <Lesley> Mark, can you give me lessons on security?
[05:01] <Admiral_Chicago> 12 inches over here in 4 hours...
[05:01] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: hopefully there will be a lot of those this season :-)
[05:02] <popey> moo
[05:02] <Admiral_Chicago> Lesley: delete windows first.
[05:02] <popey> hey Admiral_Chicago I thought you'd gone to sleep
[05:02] <Admiral_Chicago> all my classes got cancelled
[05:02] <Lesley> sshh!
[05:02] <abattoir> gregbuntu: i know pyqt is possible, can't vouch for pygtk, but common sense says it should work too, but of course there are certain platform specific stuff too
[05:02] <pitti> Jucato: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Packaging/Tips and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips are good starting points
[05:02] <Admiral_Chicago> popey: i did. i went to bed at 7.00, woke up at 8.30 for breakfast
[05:02] <pointwood> Admiral_Chicago: next, install OpenBSD :p
[05:02] <Jucato> pitti: thanks again! :)
[05:02] <pitti> Jucato: the latter also refers to the Debian New Maintainer's guide, which is still a good reference guide
[05:02] <Admiral_Chicago> pointwood: ya that's a good place
[05:03] <gregbuntu> abattoir: so pyQT is a good choice for compiling to native code on the various platforms? (using java now for that but it needs JRE of course)
[05:03] <popey> sabdfl: how do you get over the "I have windows and it work for me" argument?
[05:03] <Admiral_Chicago> Jucato: also hang out in #ubuntu-motu and during down time, someone may be ablet to hold your hand and help you
[05:03] <pitti> Lesley: 'lessons on security'? Take care of your house keys :)
[05:03] <Jucato> pitti: ok.. but I'm a newbie interested in learning to package... I'll take things one step at a time :)
[05:03] <pitti> Lesley: seriously, what are you interested in?
[05:03] <Admiral_Chicago> Jucato: did you read that licensing links?
[05:03] <jrib> pointwood: http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html http://diveintopython.org/ and http://rgruet.free.fr/PQR24/PQR2.4.html were my favorite links when I first started with python
[05:03] <Jucato> Admiral_Chicago: yeah. I'll probably hang out in #ubuntu-bugs too while learning :)
[05:03] <abattoir> gregbuntu: since it's python, if you have the interpreter on the platform, and the necessary libs, you should be good to go
[05:04] <pointwood> jrib: ok, thx, I'll have a look
[05:04] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm always there
[05:04] <Lesley> pitti - security in general, but i am bothered about a few things??
[05:04] <pitti> Lesley: security in general is a veery wide topic
[05:04] <gregbuntu> gregbuntu: heh, i'm such a noob... i thought python was compiled, not interpreted
[05:05] <Admiral_Chicago> speaking of which, please confirm this. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/74050 I got it as well
[05:05] <pitti> gregbuntu: talking to yourself? :)
[05:05] <Jucato> lol
[05:05] <abattoir> gregbuntu: :P
[05:05] <gregbuntu> pitti: DOH!
[05:05] <pointwood> hehe
[05:05] <gregbuntu> :P
[05:05] <pitti> gregbuntu: anyway, if there was an equivalent to perlcc, that would rock
[05:05] <pointwood> I know more about python than at least one person then :p
[05:05] <Lesley> yip- i know!
[05:06] <abattoir> gregbuntu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language) should give you an overview
[05:06] <gregbuntu> abattoir: thanks for that
[05:06] <pointwood> what is tomboy?
[05:06] <bhale> Admiral_Chicago: someone from Kubuntu would have to configm that, I think
[05:06] <jrib> pointwood: sticky notes that work like a wiki
[05:07] <bhale> tomboy is a nnote taking app from gnome
[05:07] <bakert> pointwood, desktop note taking
[05:07] <abattoir> gregbuntu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit) for Qt
[05:07] <pointwood> ahh
[05:07] <Admiral_Chicago> bhale: i'll check it out.
[05:07] <pointwood> sounds cool
[05:07] <bhale> could somone voice official helpers or something
[05:08] <gregbuntu> abattoir: good 'ol wiki
[05:08] <Jucato> pitti: btw, the two links you gave are the same page (one redirects) :)
[05:08] <pitti> Jucato: oh, oops
[05:08] <pointwood> one question: In regards to bug reporting, is there guides as to how to report unsupported hardware? (what information should be provided, etc.)
[05:08] <abattoir> gregbuntu: indeed, there are a lot of good tutorials w/ which good old google can help you out :)
[05:08] <Jucato> pitti: no biggie. thanks! :)
[05:09] <Admiral_Chicago> pointwood: good question! unfortunetly i don't know the answer..
[05:09] <Lesley> pitti: there are so many things i want to ask - so i will wait for a class on the topic!
[05:09] <Eroick> Is C# with Mono a good choice for developing on ubuntu?
[05:09] <bhale> Eroick, of course
[05:09] <Dannilion> I have a question- how do I stop myself getting involved :Dt
[05:09] <Admiral_Chicago> Lesley: today is freshers..any and all questions go
[05:10] <pointwood> Admiral_Chicago: I don't think it exists, but I ran into that problem recently - there are few things that doesn't quite work on my thinkpad
[05:10] <Jucato> Dannilion: simple answer: /part
[05:10] <pointwood> /kickban Dannilion there you go :p
[05:11] <pitti> Eroick: Mono has been adopted quite well by the Gnome project and by Ubuntu
[05:11] <Lesley> How safe is irc from getting diseases!
[05:11] <Admiral_Chicago> pointwood: that's suprising, TP are supposed to have good support
[05:11] <abattoir> well, obesity is a risk ;)
[05:12] <gregbuntu> fabbione: sparc port is still rocking for me. nice job,
[05:12] <Dannilion> :D
[05:12] <Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: question. do you ever feel that as Ubuntu gets more and more popular that you have to be more careful with what you say or do?
[05:12] <pointwood> Admiral_Chicago: and it does but the sd card reader doesn't work
[05:12] <Lesley> Is my back door open/
[05:12] <Admiral_Chicago> after all the CoC says you're supposed to be perfect :P
[05:13] <bhale> the CoC says that you should be courteous
[05:13] <kdeuser^> Jucato: hey !
[05:13] <bhale> Lesley: there is a lot of traffic here now, maybe best to not add noise
[05:13] <Jucato> kdeuser^: hi
[05:15] <Admiral_Chicago> pointwood: check out this link...http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptops and maybe http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
[05:15] <bakert> Regarding C#+Mono -- there's definitely some disagreement about how "safe" they are to develop with.  Right?
[05:15] <bhale> safe in what sense?
[05:16] <hastesaver> the definition of C# might change? Microsoft might introduce proprietary extensions that Mono is not allowed to reproduce? Is that possible?
[05:16] <pitti> bakert: safe in the sense of patents or vulnerabilities? :)
[05:16] <Lesley> Well dont encourage me to talk and then tell me not 2??
[05:16] <bhale> some people like to theorize about what might happen if someone made a patent claim in the US
[05:16] <bakert> ... what he said ^^^^ !
[05:17] <bakert> (hastesaver, that is)
[05:17] <pointwood> Admiral_Chicago: yeah, been through that, but nothing about the card reader
[05:17] <bhale> it is addressed in the Mono FAQ i believe
[05:17] <Admiral_Chicago> hmm. not sure how to help you really. maybe contact someone on the team?
[05:17] <pointwood> I'm trying to find my bug report, but when I search I get no results... :(
[05:18] <Admiral_Chicago> file a bug report for sure
[05:18] <Admiral_Chicago> oh
[05:18] <pointwood> wait, found it
[05:18] <pointwood> https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/71715
[05:19] <Jucato> speaking of bugs...
[05:19] <Eroick> So, are there any guides on how to get involved into packaging for Ubuntu?
[05:19] <Admiral_Chicago> I suggest #ubuntu-bugs for this if that's okay with you pointwood and Jucato
[05:20] <pointwood> sure
[05:20] <Admiral_Chicago> Eroick: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Packaging/Tips
[05:20] <pointwood> of course :)
[05:20] <Admiral_Chicago> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingTips
[05:20] <Admiral_Chicago> also, packaging on help.ubuntu.com
[05:20] <Jucato> Admiral_Chicago: they're the same page btw
[05:20] <Jucato> PackagingTips redirects to the MOTU page
[05:20] <Admiral_Chicago> ah okay i just pasted from what someone told you
[05:23] <cryption> Where is a good place to start getting involved with Ubuntu?
[05:23] <dholbach> hey cryption
[05:23] <dholbach> that depends on what you would like to do
[05:23] <dholbach> cryption: what would you like to do?
[05:24] <dholbach> Eroick: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation
[05:24] <cryption> Well I am a software developer, but I don't have much free time these days
[05:24] <cryption> So most likely something that does not require several hours a day
[05:24] <dholbach> Sure - sounds good
[05:25] <dholbach> if you're comfortable building software, testing it, merging changes from Debian, etc - you might want to look into the MOTU efforts
[05:26] <Admiral_Chicago> cryption: dholbach made a good point, or i would suggest bug tracking
[05:27] <cryption> Ok, I have checked out launchapd, what exactly would I be doing with bug tracking?
[05:27] <pitti> cryption: it's mainly reading, replying, and debugging, i. e. quality improvement
[05:28] <Lesley> well clearly i wont be getting any help from my ubuntu buddies that care - nite! :-(
[05:28] <Eroick> Hmm, it seems that most things in ubuntu are python.
[05:28] <pitti> cryption: e. g. if you particularly like a piece of software, but don't want to spend much time in development, but care about it working well, then you might be interested in fixing bugs
[05:28] <cryption> ok that sounds cool
[05:28] <Eroick> Eg: update-manager
[05:28] <Admiral_Chicago> trying to reproduce bugs, sorting bugs (keeyping duplicates out is one of many fuctions)
[05:29] <pitti> cryption: usually you start with 'adopting' one package, to not become overwhelmed
[05:29] <hastesaver> Eroick, yes, Ubuntu loves Python :-)
[05:29] <pitti> cryption: and it is beneficial to get in love with upstream, for forwarding/discussing issues with them, discussing ideas about improvements, e.g.
[05:30] <Eroick> hastesaver: any real reason for the love?
[05:30] <pitti> cryption: or you help with developing new features, we have specifications for that
[05:30] <cryption> Yea I am very passionate about getting things done upstream
[05:30] <pitti> cryption: it really depends on what you want to do
[05:30] <pitti> cryption: after all, it should be fun! :)
[05:30] <cryption> About the new features, could you explain further?
[05:30] <cryption> That sounds very appealing
[05:31] <hastesaver> Eroick, well, Python *is* a nice language.... Perl is write-only, C is old and DIY, Java is bloat :-) (TBH, I don't know actually. I have nothing to do with Ubuntu)
[05:31] <pitti> cryption: two times a year there is a developer summit where all interested people meet to discuss about new ideas; these are written down as specifications and tracked on https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs (for feisty in this case)
[05:32] <pitti> cryption: or https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs for everything that anyone ever proposed
[05:32] <Eroick> Does anyone know why Ubuntu uses so much Python :P
[05:32] <pitti> cryption: but often these are pretty global, thus require a certain level of experience
[05:32] <pitti> cryption: usually it's best to start with small things to get used to the community, processes, and technology
[05:33] <pitti> cryption: and a great way to learn and become involved is to start working on a very confined thing, like one package (be that artwork, network-manager, f-spot, or whatever you like to do on your computer)
[05:34] <pitti> Eroick: several reasons
[05:34] <pitti> Eroick: most important of all, Python is fun, solid, and easy to learn
[05:34] <pitti> Eroick: then, Python is one of the 'officially adopted' languages of the Gnome project
[05:35] <pitti> Eroick: and many of us (sabdfl being the first) just love Python
[05:35] <pitti> :)
[05:35] <pitti> Eroick: we also have some people who come from that community
[05:36] <Eroick> I haven't used python since version 1.3 or something around ther
[05:37] <Eroick> "The only languages currently used in applications that are part of an official GNOME desktop release are C, C# and Python."
[05:37] <pitti> yep
[05:38] <pointwood> really? is there C# applications in the official Gnome release?
[05:38] <Eroick> How is GUI building with Python though? I know that it sucks with C and MonoDevelop looked good. What do you use?
[05:38] <Seveas> hehe
[05:38] <pitti> pointwood: Tomboy and f-spot (not sure about f-spot, though)
[05:38] <jrib> pointwood: tomboy is such an application
[05:38] <dholbach> intltool is written in perl :-)
[05:38] <pointwood> k
[05:38] <pitti> Eroick: not really
[05:39] <pitti> Eroick: my personal preference is using glade-gnome2 to click together the GUI
[05:39] <pointwood> I just seem to remember reading that there wasn't any Mono dependency in Gnome yet
[05:39] <pitti> Eroick: and then you can load the resulting .glade file into a C/Perl/Python/Tcl/Whatever program and just have to define the callbacks
[05:39] <Eroick> pitti: Ok, and what do you use for an IDE?
[05:39] <pitti> Eroick: I just use glade-gnome2 for GUI construction
[05:39] <pitti> Eroick: for everything else I'm pretty old sk00l and just use vim
[05:40] <pitti> Eroick: so I'm a bad person to ask about IDEs :(
[05:40] <imbrandon> ( also FYI you can load qt/kde designer files *.ui into python too just as .glade ones too )
[05:40] <imbrandon> bbiab have to run
[05:40] <pitti> right
[05:40] <Eroick> imbrandon: what can you make them with though?
[05:40] <pitti> Eroick: there's a similar designer application for Qt
[05:41] <pitti> Eroick: look at the qt3-designer/qt4-designer packages
[05:41] <Eroick> pitti: hmm, Qt has funny licenses, does it not?
[05:41] <pointwood> Eroick: GPL
[05:41] <pitti> Eroick: no, that was ages ago; nowadays, it's fully GPL
[05:41] <bhale> Eroick: it is available under GPL
[05:41] <pitti> Eroick: of course you can also get a commercial license
[05:41] <Eroick> pitti: But not for creating comercial apps, right?
[05:42] <pointwood> Qt4 is even GPL for Windows
[05:42] <pitti> Eroick: if you want to create and ship a commercial app with it, you need to buy a commercial license, right
[05:42] <pitti> but that's of course totally OT here :)
[05:42] <pointwood> Eroick: if you want to create commercial apps then you buy a comm. license
[05:42] <pointwood> hehe
[05:43] <hastesaver> Are there commercial GTK apps?
[05:43] <Admiral_Chicago> hastesaver: i don't think so
[05:43] <pointwood> and since Qt4 is GPL on windows too, you might see quite a few KDE apps available on windows as well as Linux and OS X
[05:43] <Admiral_Chicago> gtk uses GPL
[05:43] <pitti> hastesaver: GTK is LGPL, so you can build commercial apps with it
[05:44] <Eroick> Yeah, I dont plan on making anything nonGPL, but still. Its a restriction
[05:44] <Admiral_Chicago> ah okay
[05:44] <hastesaver> pitti, but has anyone?
[05:44] <Eroick> Hmm, if you made a GPL program with Qt but sold it would you have to have a developers lisence
[05:45] <pitti> hastesaver: no idea
[05:45] <bhale> you can "sell" gpl code as long as you also give the source to the buyer
[05:45] <hastesaver> So QT's licensing really doesn't matter at all, AFAICT :-)
[05:45] <bhale> as with Red Hat Enterprise Linux
[05:46] <bhale> you pay for the binaries, you get the source
[05:47] <pointwood> Eroick: only if you want to make a closed source app that's Qt based, then you'd have to buy a commercial license from the trolls
[05:47] <Eroick> Meh, I guess GTK will do though, GTK runs on Gnome, KDE and just about everything else nowadays
[05:47] <hastesaver> pointwood, like Skype?
[05:48] <pointwood> hastesaver: yeah, like skyp
[05:48] <pointwood> e
[05:48] <pointwood> Adobe uses Qt too
[05:48] <abattoir> as does Opera, and Google Earth too, iirc
[05:48] <pointwood> yeah
[05:49] <abattoir> i think vmware-server would qualify as a 'commercial' gtk app
[05:49] <dholbach> gtkmm even :)
[05:50] <_MMA_> I thought vmware-workstation was the commercial one?
[05:50] <Admiral_Chicago> no i think it's free
[05:50] <Admiral_Chicago> not sure i've only seen it once
[05:50] <hastesaver> So all these people use Qt even though they can use GTK for free? Doesn't make sense
[05:50] <cryption> vmware-server or GSX server is free now
[05:51] <cryption> Is it possible they choose Qt because it has a public company developing it and it is object orientated?
[05:51] <pitti> hastesaver: 'all these people use Windows even though they can use Linux for free?' -- there are very often several reasons :)
[05:51] <pitti> commercial support not being the least important one
[05:53] <pointwood> vmware workstation costs money
[05:53] <Admiral_Chicago> [10:54]  <_MMA_> Admiral_Chicago: vmware-server and -client are free as in beer. -workstation is pay.
[05:53] <pointwood> hastesaver: Qt should be a very nice toolkit
[05:54] <hastesaver> pointwood, But Windows is not a very nice OS, so it's not necessary that that's true :-)
[05:54] <pointwood> hastesaver: I don't get your point?
[05:54] <Eroick> Here we go, C# on Mono or Python. Which one to learn first...
[05:55] <cryption> Python :)
[05:55] <pitti> Eroick: Mono == C#
[05:55] <pitti> oh, sorry, ignore me (I read that as 'or', not 'on'
[05:55] <bakert> Eroick, are you a programmer already?  If not, I think Python.
[05:55] <hastesaver> pointwood, No, I mean it does not logically follow, just because people are willing to pay for it, that it's better -- Windows is a counterexample. (But it may be true, I don't know)
[05:55] <pitti> Eroick: but definitively Python, of course :)
[05:55] <bakert> Eroick, Try www.diveintopython.org
[05:55] <fastdami> Hi I would say 3 things that greatly enhance linux (and so Ubuntu) IMHO: 1) A complete IDE for .NET developing (something like Sharp Develop on Windows), and a Windows Forms compatible .NET engine of course! 2) Complete networking interoperability with Windows networks (I experienced much problems in my LAN at work). 3) Make a stable kernel API to allow industries developing drivers for their devices. What do you think?
[05:55] <hastesaver> Eroick, what languages are you familiar with?
[05:55] <Eroick> bakert: Yeah, I have some experiance mostly in Ruby and some C/C++
[05:56] <Eroick> ive brushed with python for a short while long ago
[05:56] <pitti> Eroick: diveintopython is nice, but quite heavy; maybe start with http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html
[05:56] <pitti> Eroick: the tutorial is 'gently walk into Python' :)
[05:56] <hastesaver> From C++/Java, it's a short leap to C#. From scripting languages (Ruby fits that mould, I think), it's a short way to Python.
[05:57] <pointwood> hastesaver: ahh...okay, but considering the fact that it is used for KDE (among other things) and they really like it too, I would say it is true :) I think it is one of the best (if not the best) option if you want to do crossplatform development (windows, linux, OS X)
[05:57] <bakert> Jucato, I doubt it.  All the Dive Into stuff is Mark Pilgrim.  He doesn't seem like the C++ type to me.
[05:57] <bakert> Eroick, python is a lot like Ruby.  C# is somewhat like C++.
[05:57] <bakert> Ah.  As hastesaver just said!
[05:57] <hastesaver> bakert, does Mark Pilgrim have a trademark on "Dive Into..."? (Like IDG has on "... For Dummies!"?)
[05:57] <Eroick> I like the idea of C# because I do work on windows computers as well as ubuntu, and MS supports C#
[05:58] <bakert> hastesaver, don't know but all the diveinto things in the world so far (greasemonkey, python, osx, accessibility, mark) are by him.
[05:58] <Eroick> However, in a Ubuntu specific world, it seems that Python is more common
[05:58] <bakert> and he (since very recently) runs ubuntu.  good lad.
[05:59] <bakert> Leaving aside concerns about C# and it's genesis at Microsoft the difference between the two comes down to strictness.
[05:59] <hastesaver> fastdami, If you're developing for Windows, it doesn't make much sense to do so on some other OS, IMHO.
[05:59] <pitti> Eroick: in the end it's really bikeshedding; just try both and see which you like more
[06:00] <pitti> Eroick: I have experience with both (I did my whole diploma thesis in mono-C# and many current projects in Python), and they are both good and usable languages
[06:00] <bakert> C# likes you to go a certain way.  Python is a little freer.  But the "tightness" of C# does get you the potential for better tools and a few other benefits.
[06:00] <Eroick> the think I dont like about Python is that is isnt strict. Some things are builtin functions and others are methods.
[06:00] <bakert> Of course you are best off trying them both.  But try python first ;)
[06:01] <Jucato> I'm interested in KDE/Qt programming (eventually for Kubuntu). Are there any beginner-level C++ (online) books/resources you guys could recommend?
[06:01] <bakert> Also, I wouldn't want to write a sizeable program in C# without a good understanding of OO.  Python you could probably get away with it.
[06:01] <bakert> Although maybe you shouldn't!
[06:01] <pitti> Eroick: there are very few functions; len(), rep(), str() are the ones that come to my mind, but almost everything is a method
[06:01] <Squido> Jucato: the kde developers site has a bunch of tutorials.
[06:02] <Jucato> Squido: thanks
[06:02] <pitti> bakert: writing non-OO for small task is entirely legitimate IMHO
[06:02] <pitti> bakert: python is great as a 'better shell scripts' tool, which C# is absolutely not
[06:02] <Jucato> (although Bruce Eckel's book requires some programming background...)
[06:02] <Eroick> bakert: No, you should never do anything in either language thats non-OO unless its small
[06:02] <Squido> I had problems (probably just me) with libqt-mt -- lots of segfaults.
[06:03] <Squido> I had to compile a non-threaded version to get the tutorials to function.
[06:06] <pitti> seb128: *hug*
[06:06] <Jucato> lots of hugging....
[06:06] <Jucato> :)
[06:07] <dholbach> that's what you get when you join the desktop team ;-)
[06:07] <Jucato> yay! thanks! :)
[06:07] <Jucato> now I feel like a bug :)
[06:07] <pointwood> :D
[06:07] <pointwood> awwww
[06:07] <pointwood> *warm fuzzy feeling*
[06:07] <Jucato> you can just feel the love hehehe
[06:07] <Seveas> bunchofhuggingbuggers...
[06:07] <pitti> pointwood: welcome to the desktop team, here are your first 2000 bugs
[06:07] <pitti> :-P
[06:07] <pointwood> LOL
[06:07] <Jucato> lol
[06:13] <bakert> Just taking it back a little bit.  I do hate len(), str() and repr() as much as anyone but they are still "methods" in some sense
[06:13] <bakert> That is, if you define __len__ on your object when you call len(object) you will get the return value of __len__
[06:13] <bakert> Daft, but true.
[06:13] <bakert> Same goes for __str__ and __repr__
[06:14] <Seveas> or __*__
[06:14] <bakert> Just don't get me started on explicit self.
[06:23] <tonyyarusso> In case any folks have been lurking in the shadows and are feeling intimidated, remember to feel free to ask whatever, technical or not!
[06:26] <Roadie> hi
[06:26] <bakert> hello
[06:27] <apokryphos> hey
[06:27] <Roadie> If I were to install Ubuntu from the CD will it affect my current operating system?
[06:27] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: do we have free will?
[06:28] <abattoir> Roadie: you can install Ubuntu alongside your current operating system if you so desire
[06:28] <apokryphos> Roadie: you can fire up the CD (and hence go into a "Live session") which installs NOTHING to your hard-disk
[06:28] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: Scott Adams says no, but he also advocates Bill Gates for president, so must be wrong, therefore, yes.
[06:28] <apokryphos> Roadie: it runs directly off your CD rom and your RAM
[06:28] <apokryphos> Roadie: if you choose to install, it will try to suggest to shrink the current Win/whatever partition, and make room for itself.
[06:29] <Clavi> Ok, here goes. I learned about this thing from Melissa Drapers blog... I've got a question. Why does Ubuntu not add the prop. owned codecs like mp3/flash support in sources.list, but disabled by default...  with offcourse appropriate warnings should you want to enable it. At this time (as I understand it) there are 2 ways to easily add this (easy-ubuntu and ... eeeh... some other dudes repo). Why doesn't the ubuntu community/canonical t
[06:29] <Clavi> ake care of this in a decent manner that "just works"?
[06:29] <Roadie> Ok I have sucess with running it from the drive but I would like to install an image that I can duel boot from at atartup.  Is this possible?
[06:29] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: dang. 2,500 year old problem and all we needed was to know Scott Adams' answer? You're good ;-)
[06:29] <sjoeboo> Roadie: yes it is
[06:29] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: :)
[06:29] <apokryphos> Roadie: yes, it's the default.
[06:30] <fastdami> Hi, I use ubuntu from 3 years (also at work) and I'm very satisfied. One question: both in 6.04 and 6.10 the support for Zydas (zd1211 kernel module) is very poor. This is a problem when I need to install the system on a computer where the Wi-Fi network is the only accessible! After compiling from source all is going well. Why you don't include a working version?
[06:30] <sjoeboo> Roadie: if you install (that is click the "Install" icon on the desktop of the live-cd) it will preform an install on your system
[06:30] <Roadie> As to free will well I'm going to freely install Ubuntu and hope it doesn't hose my computer.
[06:30] <sjoeboo> Roadie: it will find your windows install, and simply "shrink" it for you, to make room for Ubuntu. then at boot you can choose an OS
[06:31] <Roadie> All right thanks to all, looks like it won't hurt anything.
[06:31] <Roadie> But I am going to do an image backup first.
[06:31] <bakert> Roadie, you should always keep a backup.  Your hard drive might fail tomorrow, even if you don't install Ubuntu.
[06:32] <bakert> Ah
[06:32] <bakert> too slow!
[06:32] <bakert> good idea
[06:32] <Clavi> 
[06:33] <fastdami> One proposal: develop a GUI interface for the in-depth administration of some services (e.g. apache, mysql) that can be ran both locally and on another machine (e.g. a windowz one). This would allow a simplified administration of an Ubuntu server also in a Windows environement without the needs of being a conscious linux user. What do you think?
[06:35] <apater> fastdami: have you seen WebMin?
[06:35] <poningru> fastdami: look at the devel list thread re: that
[06:35] <LaserJock> Clavi: because the mp3/flash problem will be taken care of in a better way?
[06:35] <LaserJock> fastdami: that also requires a lot of security for remote administration
[06:35] <fastdami> WebMin is quite insecure, AFAIK, isn't it?
[06:36] <bakert> LaserJock, what's the better way?
[06:36] <Jucato> LaserJock: yes, please do take care of those codecs in a better way...
[06:36] <sabdfl> popey: ask them to setup a wiki over SSL
[06:36] <LaserJock> needed codecs will be installed on demand
[06:36] <LaserJock> this already happens for mp3s in Edgy I believe
[06:36] <sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: yes, and sometimes i do put foot in mouth
[06:36] <Admiral_Chicago> i didn't think you'd get back to me :)
[06:37] <bakert> LaserJock, ah
[06:37] <bakert> LaserJock, that's good
[06:37] <Jucato> yep, MP3's on Amarok in Edgy
[06:37] <bakert> But it's an Edgy feature rather than an Amarok feature?
[06:38] <LaserJock> I believe so
[06:38] <Clavi> LaserJock: It doesn't as far as I tried ;) Easy-ubuntu is also a royal pain (on a laptop at least). Is that planned for feisty?
[06:38] <LaserJock> not just amarok
[06:38] <LaserJock> it worked for me with rhythmbox in Edgy
[06:38] <bakert> So what happens ... some kind of warning/explanation screen and  an OK button?
[06:38] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:39] <Jucato> bakert: the script asks you if you want to install the codecs that are needed
[06:40] <Clavi> LaserJock, do you know which part of the OS captures those calls?
[06:40] <LaserJock> check out https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation for more info on all of that
[06:40] <Clavi> Ah Feisty!
[06:41] <bakert> That's cool.
[06:41] <LaserJock> Clavi: not really, I don't know to much about it honestly. I was just testing out a fresh edgy install and clicked on an mp3
[06:41] <LaserJock> and it popped up, installed, etc.
[06:42] <LaserJock> so it's definitely a goal, sometimes it just takes a little more time and planning to get things done the right way
[06:43] <Clavi> Cool. That's the way it should be. I guess they'll refine it more in Feisty. Can't wait for  the next one (I think everyone says that after every new release of Ubuntu ;))
[06:43] <LaserJock> yep
[06:43] <pointwood> fastdami:  http://www.ebox-platform.com/ might be another option
[06:46] <fastdami> pointwood: not the one i had in mind, but however quite interesting! Thank you!
[06:49] <pointwood> sabdfl: For what it's worth (not much as I'm just a simple user ;)), I reall like Henriks post on the devel list about the binary drivers issue: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022672.html
[06:49] <pointwood> fastdami: you're welcome :)
[06:55] <fastdami> OK here's another question: is there a way to do a login in a linux box using the same user of an Active Directory domain? This is a common problem in my workplace.
[06:55] <LaserJock> network authentication was also a big topic at the Feisty developer summit
[06:56] <LaserJock> lots of specs about being able to work with Active Directory, LDAP, etc.
[06:56] <fastdami> Should I think that Samba has failed this mission?
[06:57] <LaserJock> well, samba is good for many situations I should think
[06:58] <LaserJock> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-authentication
[06:59] <LaserJock> we've also seen a directory service team sprout up in Ubuntu: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-directory
[07:00] <fastdami> Well, a lot of people! I'm happy to know that someone is working at this seriously!
[07:01] <LaserJock> yes, it is a very important feature in the corporate and educational sectors
[07:02] <fastdami> I think is one of the 2 or 3 features that could bring the use of linux truly in enterprises that also use windows
[07:05] <rrittenhouse> I agree.
[07:06] <fastdami> OK, so if I would join the team involved in this, how should I do?
[07:06] <fastdami> Are there pre-requisites?
[07:08] <LaserJock> fastdami: I'd contact Corey Burger or Andrew Mitchell (who are on that list)
[07:08] <LaserJock> and no there isn't a pre-requisite really, just interest in the subject and a willingness to help out
[07:09] <fastdami> As well as I have some programming experiences, mainly Perl and C, of course!
[07:10] <LaserJock> cool
[07:16] <fastdami> Should I contact them with private messages? I'm afraid I can't
[07:17] <LaserJock> well, ajmitch should be online in a few hours (he's on AU time)
[07:17] <LaserJock> but email is always good
[07:17] <fastdami> ok!
[07:20] <LaserJock> fastdami: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-October/022107.html will be of interest to you
[07:27] <fastdami> wow! I think I'll contact them very soon..
[07:28] <timinphx1> well it doesn't appear that there are too many people feeling very "fresh", isn't it like the middle of the night/early am for alot of you?
[07:29] <pointwood> 19.30 here :)
[07:29] <timinphx1> by the way it's 11:29am saturday for me!!
[07:30] <MySelf> it is 1:30 pm friday by here
[07:31] <fastdami> In Italy 19:30 pm, it's about Pizza Time!!!
[07:31] <pointwood> mmm...pizza
[07:32] <timinphx1> I just woke up but it's good for breakfast also...
[07:32] <fastdami> Not Pizza, ITALIAN pizza! (sorry for capitalizing the word italian!)
[07:32] <pointwood> fastdami: about 1000km or more above you, it might be pizza time as well :D
[07:32] <fastdami> No no, I disagree!
[07:33] <fastdami> Only here it's Pizza Time, elsewhere is "something you call pizza" time!
[07:33] <fastdami> ;)
[07:33] <pointwood> hey!
[07:33] <pointwood> they make italian pizza's here too ;)
[07:34] <fastdami> If you ever came in Rome, let me know! And after we can have a discussion about Pizza, or about Ubuntu of you prefer!!
[07:34] <timinphx1> I'm in Phoenix Arizona USA, I don't think that's really Italian
[07:34] <pointwood> :D
[07:35] <pointwood> I've been to Venice, but that's about as close as I've been :)
[07:36] <jono> right I have to run - thanks everyone for making it a great freshers day
[07:36] <jono> may it continue into the day :)
[07:36] <fastdami> I just written to Corey "Ham" Burger
[07:37] <fastdami> Hope I can help
[07:37] <jono> cool
[07:37] <jono> night all!
[07:37] <timinphx1> Night!
[07:39] <fastdami> Let's make some interesting discussion!
[07:39] <timinphx1> I'm fairly new to (k)ubuntu, started 09/29/06 are most of you old timers?
[07:40] <fastdami> Ehm.. I don't remember the exact date, but I use Ubuntu from 4 years
[07:40] <timinphx1> I sooo don't miss MS Windows XP...
[07:41] <phanatic> fastdami: that's pretty impossible :) first release is 4.10, which was a bit more than 2 years ago...
[07:41] <_MMA_> fastdami: 4 years or realeases?
[07:42] <ranf> 4 years is impossible
[07:42] <_MMA_> *releases
[07:42] <fastdami> well 3 years maybe, from 5.04
[07:42] <_MMA_> Thats less that 2 years.
[07:42] <pointwood> still impressive since ubuntu is not 3 years old ;)
[07:42] <fastdami> 8-)
[07:43] <timinphx1> I got the point..
[07:43] <fastdami> I had a 3.0 release ok? :-D
[07:43] <fastdami> prior to 5.04, what version?
[07:43] <juliux> http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/not_really_into_pokemon.png
[07:44] <_MMA_> Warty was 4.10
[07:46] <fastdami> Ok, I follow Ubuntu from warty then! How old is Warty?
[07:46] <timinphx1> I guess I had it easy, I started with 6.06 LTS, so a lot of the bugs were gone by then.
[07:47] <_MMA_> timinphx1: Honestly Warty was solid from the start for me.
[07:47] <chilli> What's the best way to get hired to hack on ubuntu? (or any other distribution for that matter?)
[07:47] <_MMA_> fastdami: Warty is about 2.5 years old.
[07:47] <fastdami> for me 5.10 and 6.10 have been a little problematic in the beginning
[07:47] <phanatic> fastdami: it's easy to get: first number is the year - 2000 (4, so it was released in 2004), the second one is the month (10 - october)
[07:48] <fastdami> Wow, I never noticed this! Thank you phanatic!
[07:48] <_MMA_>  fastdami: 2 years is more like it. :)
[07:48] <timinphx1> I managed to make them harder then they needed to be..haha
[07:48] <fastdami> OK so I'm a 2 years old Ubuntu user!
[07:49] <fastdami> And prior, an unsatisfied SuSE 9.1 Professional user
[07:49] <timinphx1> I tried SuSE 9.3 and couldn't even get it to boot.
[07:50] <fastdami> And my company paid for it!
[07:50] <_MMA_> chilli: Getting hired to hack on Ubuntu requires great skill IMO.
[07:50] <timinphx1> Hired to hack Ubuntu as in by Canonical or for something else?
[07:51] <_MMA_> chilli: Its easy to volunteer though. Thats real easy in Ubuntu.
[07:52] <chilli> _MMA_: well skills I got but they mainly involve embedded linux, my current work/project are about to ditch linux and I'd due to that I'd prefer to move on..
[07:53] <_MMA_> chilli: I would see if they have any job postings. jono might be a person to talk to.
[07:54] <_MMA_> Otherwise, if you just want to help, unpaid, thats really easy. Thats where Im at.
[07:54] <kernelabhishek> edgy is not detecting my new fresh eth0 dlink
[07:54] <fastdami> OK now I'm really going for Pizza, have a good re-fresh (at least have a good Pizza!) Bye!
[07:54] <kernelabhishek> please help
[07:55] <_MMA_> Are we doing support in here?
[07:55] <timinphx1> fastdami: enjoy!!
[07:55] <fastdami> ;)
[07:56] <timinphx1> I was under the impression that you should go to the regular chat rooms for that
[07:57] <timinphx1> there are 326 people in the kubuntu room
[07:57] <_MMA_> So was I. Oh, crap. he left.
[07:57] <phanatic> _MMA_: http://www.ubuntu.com/employment
[07:57] <phanatic> here you can see the current job offers of canonical
[07:59] <_MMA_> Cool. :)
[07:59] <mpathy> Nice jobs!
[07:59] <mpathy> Hi there..
[07:59] <_MMA_> ;)
[07:59] <juliux> hi mpathy
[08:00] <fastdami> I have another 1/2 hour with you... are you happy?
[08:00] <mpathy> hi juliux
[08:00] <pitti> hi juliux
[08:00] <juliux> hi pitti ;)
[08:03] <mpathy> Hmm seems I missed most of the open week :(
[08:03] <timinphx1> fastdami: of course we are! 8-)
[08:05] <timinphx1> I made it for Marks talk and a couple of other ones, they were very interesting!
[08:05] <fastdami> I would like to now the average age of ubuntu users, I think we are all young people. I'm 26
[08:05] <timinphx1> 43
[08:05] <juliux> 22
[08:05] <socrates32> 32
[08:05] <timinphx1> opps, spoiled your theory!
[08:05] <arualavi> 33
[08:05] <mpathy> 26, too
[08:06] <pitti> fastdami: I'm 26, too :)
[08:06] <mpathy> fastdami: But I think ubuntu users are always like young people ;)
[08:06] <mpathy> or linux users in general ;9
[08:06] <timinphx1> thank you!
[08:07] <_MMA_> 30 here
[08:07] <pitti> hey, in our LUG the oldest member is ~ 70 years
[08:07] <juliux> only old people here;)
[08:08] <juliux> pitti, are you regular at the lug meetings?
[08:08] <pitti> juliux: no, just on the ML
[08:08] <pitti> but not very active any more either
[08:08] <pointwood> 30
[08:08] <pitti> just in the past mainly
[08:09] <mpathy> Thats great. I also know some older guy, around 60, who had a heart problems, was in a clinic - and we give him a laptop with linux and now he is a great computer freak ;)
[08:09] <fastdami> eheh you could be my grandpa!
I'm sure I could
[08:10] <mpathy> GPL = GrandPa License? ;)
[08:10] <pointwood> lol
[08:10] <arualavi> haha
[08:10] <GrandPa1> that is pretty funny!!!
[08:11] <tictacaddict> I'm 18!
[08:11] <gouki> Hi everyone
[08:11] <fastdami> I  bet Vista users will be all 60 years old! And ugly!
[08:11] <GrandPa1> great, now my Great Grand Child has arrived
[08:11] <fastdami> But with 4 Gb of Ram... Just to see the new Explorer 7
[08:11] <kernelabhishek> edgy not detecting eth0
[08:12] <mpathy> But back to the topic ;) How can I push some things I really want like to see in Ubuntu, sth. like: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/fingerprint-authentication/
[08:12] <fastdami> I have to say something about fingerprint authentication
[08:12] <GrandPa1> yes??
[08:13] <fastdami> Biometric parameters are often considered "secure", instead in trials it's becoming difficult to use them as a proof
[08:13] <mpathy> fastdami: I know that they arent as secure as people think
[08:13] <pointwood> they aren't that secure, but secure enough for my use
[08:14] <fastdami> They should be much more secure of my "root" password however
[08:14] <pointwood> I would like it to work in kubuntu on my thinkpad too :)
[08:14] <mpathy> fastdami: http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/fingerabdruck_kopieren?language=en
[08:14] <GrandPa1> I just worry about added cost for those of us who don't have a lot of $$ and old equipment
[08:15] <mpathy> pointwood: Have a look at the spec above or on that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FingerprintAuthentication
[08:15] <pointwood> yeah
[08:15] <Sanne> kernelabhishek: you should get more help in #ubuntu
[08:15] <pointwood> looking at it right now
[08:16] <kernelabhishek> Sanne: ok
[08:16] <fastdami> Very interesting reading, thanks mpathy
[08:17] <fastdami> A dangerous one of course
[08:18] <mpathy> So my question, what would be the best way to push a topic to be more included in ubuntu? On the topic above I know that there are enough sources to get a good working solution, perhaps even in in 7.04 - but I am not really a big coder or developing guy ;)
[08:20] <fastdami> What about authentication through an RSA enabled hardware? Something like the old hardware keys, but more secure. I'm thinking at the enterprise scenario, I don't think my mother would fake my fingerprints to use my laptop!
[08:23] <mpathy> fastdami: My setup, that I tried out, but never use in the "real world" is a combination of a chipcard reader with a special card I defined, my bluetooth which I defined on recognize my cell phone, and soon the fingerprint reader (when I get my Lenovo)
[08:25] <mpathy> fastdami: Mostly I use only my bluetooth for some kind of security - when my own cellphone gets out of the range of my laptops bluetooth, it locks the screen.
[08:26] <davmor2> mpathy: that's okay till your phone gets nicked :)
[08:26] <fastdami> Nice try, big security! It should be great if there could be a Network Identity (e.g. LDAP or Active Directory) directly linked to the recognition of some sort of hardware, e.g. I plug my company card in the PC and it starts with my user
[08:27] <mpathy> davmor2: what means "nicked"? sorry - my bad english, again ;)
[08:27] <davmor2> stolen
[08:27] <davmor2> taken without consent
[08:28] <mpathy> davmor2: Sure.. My cell phone could be nicked, or the laptop ;)
[08:30] <z4k4ri4> hi all
[08:31] <tictacaddict> hi
[08:31] <mpathy> davmor2: If something is stolen, its only a matter of time regardless what you set up as security.. ;) But the bluetooth thing was a idea I had when I played a little bit with "bluemon" - great tool for do such stuff..
[08:32] <z4k4ri4> I'm a small time sysadmin, Is there a community of ubuntu using sysadmin?
[08:32] <fastdami> Now I've to go, when we'll have the next chat?
[08:33] <mpathy> z4k4ri4: Have a look in the launchpad, there are many "groups" listed
[08:33] <mpathy> also in the ubuntu wiki
[08:34] <z4k4ri4> mpathy: I'm thinking in the line of mailing list
[08:34] <fastdami> bye!
[08:34] <GrandPa1> bye!
[08:34] <z4k4ri4> mpathy: last time I check there is no such groups
[08:34] <mpathy> oh okay.. dont know, but the things I said are a good starting point to also find a mailing list :)
[08:36] <IRCpicangi> hallo
[08:36] <tictacaddict> mpathy I really like the idea of that setup with your phone.  I saw a product for sale that did something similar, but it had no linux drivers.  Too bad I have no bluetooth devices.
[08:37] <z4k4ri4> mpathy: Let say there is no such groups, how do I start one?
[08:38] <mpathy> tictacaddict: Its not difficult, if you have a bluetooth device - you only need "bluemon" which is in the universe repository
[08:38] <mpathy> z4k4ri4: I would do it in the "Launchpad" - www.launchpad.net
[08:39] <IRCpicangi> shell I ask a question?
[08:39] <PriceChild> z4k4ri4: there's always the servers and security subforum on ubuntuforums.org for support
[08:41] <bclinch> Hey folks, just popping along to say hi!
[08:41] <IRCpicangi> Where can I find a complete list of companies that have chosen ubuntu OS as their desktop OS?
[08:42] <mpathy> I think you can find some testimonials on ubuntu.com
[08:43] <IRCpicangi> thank you
[08:44] <IRCpicangi> ;)
[08:46] <GrandPa1> Well, my wife is just waking up, so I must leave you all...thanks for the chat...hope to talk again soon...timinphx1 aka Grandpa1
[08:46] <GrandPa1> bye
[08:47] <mpathy> bye
[08:48] <IRCpicangi> bye
[08:51] <samgee> jono kinda misunderstood my question on his session, so I'd like to refrase it here
[08:51] <samgee> Does an active community member have to use IRC or mailing lists?
[08:52] <davmor2> samgee there are forums aswell but pretty much yes.
[08:53] <samgee> I've looked at the forums, but there doesn't seem to be much 'Launchpad-stuff' going on
[08:53] <juliux> samgee, most teams commune via mailinglist and/or irc
[08:53] <davmor2> samgee the thing is that the community spans the globe so it is easier to maintain online so those are the main ports of call
[08:54] <juliux> samgee, i think without read mailinglists or chat in the irc it is very hard to follow the activities
[08:55] <samgee> yes, I feared there wouldn't be much of an alternative
[08:55] <PriceChild> juliux: Launchpad integration is being planned for the forums
[08:55] <DARKGuy> is launchpad free?
[08:55] <PriceChild> No
[08:56] <PriceChild> proprietory
[08:56] <DARKGuy> damn
[08:56] <juliux> PriceChild, but launcpad integration is not enough;)
[08:56] <PriceChild> nope... but was just saying juliux :)
[08:56] <PriceChild> It wouldn't be one way integration though...
[08:56] <DARKGuy> Why to integrate something propietary then? that's contradictory
[08:56] <juliux> PriceChild, and not every team is using launchpad;)
[08:57] <PriceChild> DARKGuy: both the forums and launchpad are proprietory
[08:57] <PriceChild> Its just that its the best solution that there is right now for ut
[08:57] <apokryphos> looks a little bad I think, even though it doesn't bother me much
[08:57] <juliux> DARKGuy, ubuntuforums.org use vbulletin
[08:57] <PriceChild> juliux: of course... i was just saying :)
[08:57] <juliux> PriceChild, ah ok
[08:57] <DARKGuy> Oh well
[08:57] <DARKGuy> As long as they keep using the free stuff, it's better
[08:58] <PriceChild> free stuff?
[08:58] <DARKGuy> er, nvm, I confused vbulletin
[08:58] <PriceChild> :)
[08:58] <juliux> DARKGuy, not every forum is a vbulletin
[08:58] <apokryphos> ubuntu includes plenty of proprietary stuff on the CD too
[08:58] <DARKGuy> juliux: nu, I know that =p
[08:59] <apokryphos> but this is more of a last-resort in many cases
[08:59] <apokryphos> still, I definitely don't think vbulletin is necessary for a forum; I don't even think launchpad is necessary, but it is very nice.
[08:59] <davmor2> DARKGuy the main problem as I understand it is that launchpad needs to be an individual centeralised system so if you have launchpads all over the place it is no longer centeralised
[09:00] <DARKGuy> davmor2: Well, that's a good point now that you say it
[09:00] <apokryphos> davmor2: that's not the problem; the problem is open-sourcing the actual code
[09:00] <apokryphos> more on this in the launchpad faq
[09:01] <apokryphos> DARKGuy: it wouldn't be a good thing for that reason though; because then it'd be the case that LP want to be in control of an app and only to have it one way, and that's the way they want it
[09:01] <apokryphos> quite anti-GPL. But of course, that's not the reason it's like that
[09:02] <DARKGuy> apokryphos: Yup, that was what I wanted to say in first place :(
[09:07] <PriceChild> apokryphos: vbulletin is currently the only piece of software that does everything we need it to do
[09:08] <apokryphos> PriceChild: like what exactly?
[09:09] <PriceChild> You find a piece of "free" software that does everything vbulletin does... plus one more thing and it will be considered
[09:09] <apokryphos> PriceChild: no examples?
[09:09] <PriceChild> erm
[09:09] <apokryphos> not trying to be annoying here; I'm genuinely interested
[09:09] <PriceChild> hehe yeah i understand
[09:10] <PriceChild> hard to think of off the top of my head... especially seen as i've never seen the backend
[09:10] <PriceChild> *off of
[09:10] <PriceChild> but that is the official stance
[09:11] <PriceChild> bigger than that now actually...
[09:11] <apokryphos> from my experience with forums vbulletin is just probably the most dummy-proof. It's really not very easily customisable at all compared to some other forum scripts
[09:11] <PriceChild> aha...
[09:11] <PriceChild> here we go
[09:11] <PriceChild> I'm pretty sure that vbulletin is easier to alter without changing original code, allowing easier upgrades... Im' sure i heard that from UG
[09:12] <apokryphos> the obvious candidate is phpbb, but I haven't used that in years
[09:12] <PriceChild> Printer Friendly versions on threads
[09:12] <apokryphos> wsn forum is a smaller up-and-coming script which I've found insanely more easily customisable than vbulletin
[09:12] <apokryphos> vbulletin was actually quite constraining
[09:12] <PriceChild> big one: Post Reporting - report posts to moderators
[09:13] <apokryphos> printer friendly versions of threads really isn't anything big; I don't know a forum without it
[09:13] <apokryphos> as I don't know of a forum without post reporting
[09:14] <PriceChild> at the end of the day i don't make the decision :)
[09:14] <apokryphos> sure
[09:14] <apokryphos> I'd imagine phpbb would genuinely be fine for *all* the necessary things; it's been proven in projects larger than ubuntu
[09:15] <PriceChild> hehe...
[09:15] <PriceChild> the ubuntu forums seem to have exploded this past month
[09:15] <PriceChild> I haven't a clue how they're still running
[09:16] <apokryphos> yeah, forums can be intensive on a server
[09:16] <PriceChild> more than one server ;)
[09:16] <apokryphos> 8)
[09:16] <PriceChild> database is on its own
[09:17] <apokryphos> tbh, even if an open source (like phpbb) didn't *entirely* fill the job, it would certainly, certainly fulfill the majority of things. And in such a case IMO it's a far better idea to support the free software project
[09:18] <apokryphos> looks bad when we don't support each other; especially when we have similar goals
[09:18] <PriceChild> indeed
[09:19] <PriceChild> There's a google video with mark's talk to google techs, and he said the same thing about launchpad...
[09:19] <PriceChild> but they use it because its the best thing there is
[09:19] <apokryphos> yeah
[09:19] <apokryphos> I really don't like malone as a bugtracker though :P
[09:19] <apokryphos> KDE and Novell's bugzilla are really really nice
[09:20] <apokryphos> again though, the "it's the best thing there is" I don't think cuts it. If it was "the only thing that there is" then there's a stronger case
[09:20] <apokryphos> (in being consistent with Ubuntu Philosophy, that is)
[09:20] <PriceChild> :)
[09:21] <PriceChild> people will fight over that one :)
[09:21] <PriceChild> Personally... I'm happy to pay for proprietory software if its the best there is
[09:21] <PriceChild> I love my xbox 360 and games etc.
[09:21] <PriceChild> native linux games don't always cut it...
[09:21] <PriceChild> although there ARE some great ones...
[09:21] <apokryphos> sometimes, and sometimes not
[09:21] <PriceChild> wesnoth... fish fillets... frozen bubble
[09:22] <PriceChild> Personally I don't see what people have against proprietory video drivers... nvidia isn't about to install rootkits etc.... they wouldn't survive! However I understand that its important to many people to stay away from them.
[09:24] <PriceChild> I also understand the "support free drivers to advance them, and make nvidia release the source"... but nvidia won't release their source, they'd lose all their secrets against rivals on how their technology works... and free nvidia drivers just don't work as well
[09:24] <PriceChild> but that's my opinion
[09:26] <DARKGuy> PriceChild: But its a good observation
[09:27] <DARKGuy> PriceChild: It's like comparing WINE to Windows, same thing would be
[09:27] <apokryphos> for the same reason many of us like free software :). NVidia's drivers are a black hole to us, among other things
[09:27] <davmor2> sabdfl I missed the out come of the official ubuntu training scheme did you say there is one planned
[09:27] <apokryphos> with regard to the forum, I see many threads but no explicit reasons, except "Well, vbulletin is what the administrator chose. What I believe is that vbulletin had all of the features that the administrator wanted and he was also comfortable with setting it up and using it."
[09:27] <PriceChild> yeah, DARKGuy, i've got nothing against someone using windows dual boot... games work better on it.
[09:27] <PriceChild> I did it for a year
[09:28] <DARKGuy> PriceChild: I have dualboot too, just for WoW, CS 1.6, Silkroad and other games that don't work on Linux. Diablo II, Furcadia and Tibia (binary!) work perfectly :P
[09:28] <PriceChild> wow works on linux ;)
[09:28] <PriceChild> in wine
[09:28] <PriceChild> or cedega
[09:29] <tictacaddict> is it very difficult to get it running in wine instead of cedega?
[09:29] <tictacaddict> WOW I mean
[09:29] <tictacaddict> er, WoW?
[09:30] <PriceChild> there's a howto on teh forums i think
[09:32] <DARKGuy> in WINE it requires a source code patch just 'cause they don't want to add it >.<
[09:32] <DARKGuy> in Cedega works better though, almost out-of-the-box, with OpenGL
[09:34] <PriceChild> :)
[09:40] <DARKGuy> this is like, silent
[09:40] <DARKGuy> shouldn't be this filled with people new to linux asking lots of questions? D:
[09:41] <tictacaddict> you'd think so, DARKGuy.
[09:41] <Admiral_Chicago> DARKGuy: it was when I was talking :P but that was early
[09:41] <LaserJock> rrrrrriiiicola ...
[09:42] <LaserJock> it was much busier earlier
[09:42] <DARKGuy> Aw
[09:42] <DARKGuy> So I arrived too late :P
[09:42] <LaserJock> depends on the time zone
[09:43] <DARKGuy> 4:43 pm here
[09:44] <LaserJock> only 12:43 here, I've got a lot more day ahead of me
[09:44] <Admiral_Chicago> DARKGuy: 2.47 here PM
[09:44] <DARKGuy> Admiral_Chicago: Hehe o.o
[09:44] <DARKGuy> Oh well
[09:45] <LaserJock> hehe, I'll bet $20 he's in Chicago ;-)
[09:45] <Admiral_Chicago> DARKGuy: LaserJock is right, when it was like 6 AM - 7 AM we had a lot of questions
[09:45] <Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: pay up i'm in Monmouth IL
[09:45] <LaserJock> darn
[09:45] <Admiral_Chicago> i'm at college atm
[09:46] <LaserJock> ;-)
[09:46] <LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: hehe, so ... uh ... how's the weather? :-)
[09:47] <Admiral_Chicago> 12 inches in 4 hours...
[09:47] <Admiral_Chicago> classes are "come if you can make it"
[09:47] <tonyyarusso> fifth (sixth?) straight day of rain here...
[09:47] <LaserJock> yep, that's what I miss about living in the desert
[09:48] <LaserJock> it didn't rain for over 4 months this summer :(
[09:50] <jbrock> 
[09:50] <LaserJock> so anybody got any questions?
[09:50] <PriceChild> Can i have a pony?
[09:50] <apater> why does vmware refuse to run for me?
[09:50] <PriceChild> apater: how ar eyou installing it?
[09:50] <PriceChild> repos or from source?
[09:51] <DARKGuy> Well if lots of questions is what you want...
[09:51] <apater> I have installed it and it was running
[09:51] <PriceChild> apater: how are you installing it?
[09:51] <PriceChild> repos or from source?
[09:51] <apater> but I switched kernels, ran vmware-config.pl
[09:51] <DARKGuy> what's a program similar to msconfig in windows ?
[09:51] <PriceChild> apater: what did it give out?
[09:52] <apater> vmware is installed, but it has not been (correctly) configured for this system.
[09:52] <LaserJock> PriceChild: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/files/no-pony-for-you.jpg
[09:52] <PriceChild> did you do sudo vmware-config.pl
[09:52] <PriceChild> sudo is important
[09:52] <apater> yes
[09:52] <apater> with sudo
[09:52] <PriceChild> LaserJock: awww meanie :(
[09:53] <PriceChild> apater: how are you installing it?
[09:53] <PriceChild> repos or from source?
[09:53] <apater> I downloaded the package from vmware
[09:53] <PriceChild> Ok thankyou
[09:53] <LaserJock> PriceChild: I like this version better: http://perkypants.org/blog/2006/03/23/can-i-have-a-pony/
[09:53] <apater> and installed it from the script included with that
[09:53] <Admiral_Chicago> omgwtfbbo
[09:53] <Admiral_Chicago> bbq*
[09:53] <davmor2> DARKGuy gconf-editor
[09:54] <PriceChild> apater: server or player?
[09:54] <apater> server
[09:54] <Admiral_Chicago> i just saw a news article about chicago's downtown.
[09:54] <Admiral_Chicago> empty
[09:54] <PriceChild> hmm
[09:54] <DARKGuy> davmor2: Ohh yay *downloads*
[09:54] <PriceChild> DARKGuy: its standard in ubuntu
[09:54] <PriceChild> just run it
[09:54] <davmor2> already installed
[09:55] <DARKGuy> Well, this xubuntu didn't had it by default
[09:55] <DARKGuy> just gconftool and such
[09:55] <PriceChild> apater: not the most elegant solution, but have you tried uninstalling it and reinstalling it?
[09:55] <apater> I could do that
[09:55] <LaserJock> xubuntu is a bit different then ubuntu though
[09:55] <LaserJock> gconf-editor is for the gnome desktop
[09:56] <DARKGuy> gconf-editor looks more like regedit :/
[09:56] <davmor2> ah that is really for gnome so I don't know how it would work for xfce
[09:56] <DARKGuy> but it's alright I guess o.o
[09:56] <apater> after lunch ....
[09:56] <davmor2> DARKGuy what are you trying to do
[09:57] <DARKGuy> davmor2: I'm trying to find an app where I can see the startup programs before X and such, how to disable/enable services and apps just like in msconfig in win
[09:57] <DARKGuy> Actually, make that a brb, someone's knocking at the door
[10:00] <claudiu> good evening
[10:00] <davmor2> DARKGuy Applications/system/services ?
[10:05] <claudiu> wouldn't it be good to have a specially designed program to manage distribution upgrades ?
[10:06] <tonyyarusso> claudiu: That's what update-manager is filling the role of now.
[10:08] <PriceChild> :)
[10:08] <cjwatson> Squido: I'd love to produce Ubuntu installation floppies - but we've never had them because we've never been able to fit the 2.6 kernel and enough other stuff to make it work onto a floppy. Debian's only ever had 2.4-based install floppies.
[10:08] <claudiu> well , I was thinking about an CLI version of this
[10:08] <cjwatson> Squido: this may be changing soon, and if it does then we'll try to produce installation floppies
[10:08] <claudiu> so that anyone could use it, even on ssh, or GUI's
[10:09] <cjwatson> Squido: at the moment, I believe people use Smart Boot Manager to work around this, although it doesn't help if you only have a USB CD-ROM drive or similar
[10:09] <Squido> Wow, thanks.
[10:09] <apater> " sudo rm /etc/vmware/not_configured"  fixed my problem with vmware
[10:09] <Squido> I had trouble with Smart -- old CDROM scsi driver needed....
[10:09] <PriceChild> apater: nice one :)
[10:09] <PriceChild> I'll remember that one :)
[10:10] <cjwatson> yeah, SBM's not the best solution, it's just all we really have if literally none of the other methods work
[10:11] <claudiu> tonyyarusso:  I was thinking about an CLI version of this, so that anyone could use it, even on ssh, or in other GUI's
[10:11] <LaserJock> I have a hard time even finding a floppy drive these days :/
[10:11] <Squido> cjwatson: I've done the - install min etch, then switch over the sources, and had pretty good luck...
[10:11] <tonyyarusso> claudiu: I believe that is in-process.
[10:11] <PriceChild> claudiu: no-one is going to advocate a remote distribution upgrade
[10:11] <PriceChild> ever...
[10:11] <PriceChild> unless things HUGELY improve very quickly...
[10:11] <PriceChild> i suppose
[10:11] <claudiu> PriceChild: why is that ?
[10:11] <cjwatson> Squido: that's not tested and probably not perfect, but it should mostly work, yes] 
[10:11] <PriceChild> because sods law means it won't reboot
[10:12] <PriceChild> and you'll be stuck remote with no way to fix thigns
[10:12] <claudiu> PriceChild: wouldn't it be VERY useful for sysadmins ?
[10:12] <cjwatson> if you have remote power, it's fine
[10:12] <cjwatson> and remote console
[10:12] <PriceChild> very useful claudiu
[10:12] <PriceChild> however i don't think upgrades are stable enough for it to be seen as "safe" to remote upgrade to new distro
[10:13] <LaserJock> yeah, I was going to say that I like the idea of CLI upgrades but I also like to be sitting in front of the machine when I do it
[10:13] <cjwatson> claudiu: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/server-upgrade-tool - it's on the plan for feisty
[10:13] <claudiu> I was thinking about situations when some things should be removed and reinstalled after other things, like dapper->edgy upgrade process
[10:13] <claudiu> cjwatson: wow, thats good
[10:13] <cjwatson> mvo reckons it's not that hard to tack on a text frontend
[10:13] <cjwatson> it's only medium priority though, so not guaranteed to happen
[10:14] <claudiu> does anyone know why ubuntu dapper makes use of only a part of my raid when installing ?
[10:14] <claudiu> for example, i have the root partition on /dev/cciss/c0d0p1and it is only 32Gb, and my hdd is(are) bigger
[10:17] <claudiu> btw I had someone to install ubuntu on a server with the "next, next, next" method and i found out in the end that the hdds were used completely
[10:18] <claudiu> what about beryl in feisty ? is it for sure ?
[10:18] <claudiu> errata: btw I had someone to install ubuntu on a server with the "next, next, next" method and i found out in the end that the hdds WEREN'T used completely
[10:20] <PriceChild> beryl isn't definite for feisty...
[10:20] <PriceChild> who knows..
[10:21] <PriceChild> argh beryl failed to build :'(
[10:21] <PriceChild> why won't aquamarine build... :(
[10:21] <claudiu> PriceChild: btw what is different about xgl, aiglx and composite ? I mean which of these is working on all graphic cards ?
[10:22] <PriceChild> aiglx is the best bet
[10:22] <PriceChild> composite runs on top of xgl and aiglx
[10:22] <PriceChild> composite is the actual 3dness
[10:22] <claudiu> oh
[10:22] <PriceChild> aiglx is built into edgy+
[10:22] <claudiu> ok, so beryl is about aiglx ?
[10:22] <PriceChild> ati's prop drivers don't run it.... but "radeon" will
[10:22] <PriceChild> no
[10:22] <PriceChild> beryl will run on aiglx or xgl
[10:23] <PriceChild> AND nothing at all in dapper..
[10:23] <PriceChild> but tha'ts not released yet...
[10:23] <PriceChild> but its working ;)
[10:24] <cjwatson> claudiu: the "next, next, next" method will probably only use the first disk
[10:24] <cjwatson> I think that's OK
[10:24] <claudiu> PriceChild: I have it myself , but I dont use it all the time, because of some little random things
[10:24] <claudiu> cjwatson: I really don't know how to manage that raid AFTER installing, the ide partitions are simpler for me to undrstand
[10:25] <claudiu> cjwatson: I mean, if raid is hardware, shouldn't it show like an uniform partition to the OS ?
[10:26] <tictacaddict> I have heard that aiglx will work with a new beta nvidia driver.  is that driver in a repository for edgy or would I have to download it and install something from nvidia's website?
[10:26] <claudiu> Also, it should be great to have in ubuntu more meta packages for all kind of uses
[10:26] <tonyyarusso> !nvidia
[10:26] <tonyyarusso> doh
[10:26] <PriceChild> tictacaddict: edgy or dapper?
[10:27] <claudiu> tictacaddict: there is a packaged nvidia beta driver from amaranth
[10:27] <PriceChild> Cuz i have a great guide for edgy :)
[10:27] <PriceChild> claudiu: that driver is edgy only :)
[10:27] <tictacaddict> PriceChild: edgy
[10:27] <PriceChild> and is part of my guide
[10:27] <claudiu> PriceChild: thanks, then
[10:27] <claudiu> :)
[10:27] <PriceChild> tictacaddict: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=263851 - use at your own risk
[10:27] <tenshu> hello all
[10:27] <PriceChild> NOT reccomended for beginners :)
[10:27] <tictacaddict> thanks PriceChild I will take a look
[10:28] <tictacaddict> well I don't think I'm a beginner exactly.  I'll see how daunting it looks.
[10:28] <PriceChild> it "should" be fine
[10:28] <PriceChild> although things randomly go wrong
[10:28] <PriceChild> its tested on several fresh installs and works perfectly though
[10:29] <PriceChild> it doesn't like some laptop "Go" cards
[10:29] <claudiu> PriceChild: did anyone report fireox problems with beryl ?
[10:29] <PriceChild> claudiu: when?
[10:30] <claudiu> PriceChild: sometimes, firefox doesn't want to show me the right click menu , unde beryl
[10:30] <PriceChild> Never had that problem personally :)
[10:30] <claudiu> PriceChild: it is maybe my configurations
[10:31] <PriceChild> maybe :)
[10:31] <PriceChild> I keep mine pretty clean
[10:31] <tictacaddict> one thing I wonder: is there a good way to keep a record of changes so they can be undone?  Like, a way to have an image of my system at a certain point in case I install some new big pieces of software like beryl. Basically a way to restore back to a certain point without using a complete backup of the file system...
[10:31] <PriceChild> wiping before upgrades/downgrades
[10:31] <PriceChild> tictacaddict: backing up your home dir hidden files will keep track of all your personal changes...
[10:32] <claudiu> most annoying thing in kde is that, quite often, old configs mess up new versions of programs
[10:33] <claudiu> It could be great to manage that sort of incompatibilities somehow
[10:33] <PriceChild> it "should" be handled
[10:33] <PriceChild> file a bug if now
[10:33] <PriceChild> *not
[10:34] <tictacaddict> PriceChild: what about for system wide changes?  For example, if I used your guide, how easy would it be to backtrack if I decide I don't want Beryl anymore?
[10:34] <claudiu> PriceChild: when going from dapper to edgy, my pdf printing stopped working , so i had to rename all the .kde folder
[10:35] <claudiu> tictacaddict: you should note down the packages you install
[10:35] <claudiu> tictacaddict: and purge them later  when you want
[10:35] <PriceChild> tictacaddict: you would sudo apt-get remove beryl, delete your repository lines, remove beryl-manager from sessions and reinstall the nvidia driver
[10:35] <PriceChild> i could give more exact instructions if needed...
[10:36] <PriceChild> but in 3 months of that guide being up, after over a thousand posts most have got theirs working.
[10:36] <claudiu> A great thing that kde is missing is a Settings Import-export Manager for users
[10:36] <PriceChild> i've only ever given support on how to revert other guides
[10:36] <PriceChild> no-ones asked for me to revert mine
[10:36] <PriceChild> "yet"
[10:37] <claudiu> PriceChild: maybe a metapackage for beryl could be nice, for installing/removing things
[10:37] <PriceChild> use aptitude then
[10:38] <PriceChild> http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/aptitude
[10:38] <PriceChild> but remember that there's more to it than just packages
[10:39] <claudiu> I repeat myself :)   Having MORE metapackages for all sort of things would be great in ubuntu
[10:39] <LaserJock> claudiu: well, then you get a mess of metapackages
[10:40] <LaserJock> and they are kinda static
[10:40] <claudiu> LaserJock: I mean when removing the metapackage, it  should take his friends with him back
[10:41] <claudiu> I mean somehing like: wajig install beryl
[10:41] <LaserJock> claudiu: oh right, well that is the way apt works now pretty much
[10:41] <claudiu> or,  wajig install tango-project
[10:42] <claudiu> BUT, wajig remove beryl should clean up !
[10:43] <claudiu> or metapackages for LAMP, or metapackages for DNS+POSTFIX or other I can('t) think of
[10:43] <cjwatson> all package state changes are recorded in /var/log/dpkg.log, BTW
[10:43] <LaserJock> yeah, that pretty much exists
[10:44] <LaserJock> there are also tasks
[10:44] <LaserJock> in the case of LAMP
[10:44] <LaserJock> for instance
[10:44] <cjwatson> you'd have to make sure never to logrotate that out of existence if you wanted to implement rollback somehow using it
[10:44] <claudiu> LaserJock: from what i know, removing a metapackage doesnt revert his depends
[10:44] <PriceChild> claudiu: check out my link about aptitude...
[10:44] <LaserJock> claudiu: if you have a recentish version of apt it should
[10:44] <cjwatson> that's why tasks are generally better than metapackages, since it's more feasible to implement removal
[10:44] <PriceChild> if you use it to sudo aptitude install beryl
[10:45] <PriceChild> then remove later, it'll remember
[10:45] <cjwatson> or, as LaserJock says, apt-get has autoremove facilities nowadays
[10:45] <LaserJock> or at least it flags the for removal
[10:45] <PriceChild> apt-get is now "sort of" doing it too
[10:45] <PriceChild> still prefer aptitude on edgy though...
[10:45] <LaserJock> cjwatson: I've wanted to ask you about tasks
[10:45] <PriceChild> although apt-get works better during development
[10:45] <PriceChild> IMO
[10:45] <claudiu> PriceChild: never knew about that, anyway apittude's ncurses interface is quite scary  :)
[10:45] <LaserJock> will it be straightforward to move metapackages to tasks?
[10:46] <LaserJock> like, I can imagine tasksel getting rather crowded
[10:46] <cjwatson> I don't think tasksel's going to grow that much; there's the server tasks to do, but not that much more
[10:46] <cjwatson> Debian uses tasks pretty heavily and its tasksel is not unusable
[10:47] <LaserJock> can synaptic and adept grow task handling behavior?
[10:47] <claudiu> why don't we HIDE then apt-get somewhere ?
[10:47] <LaserJock> claudiu: what?
[10:47] <vyoman> i am thinking of helping with packaging, i have no exprience in packaging .deb files, as a java programmer i could help with the packaging jakarta stuff, where do i start?
[10:48] <LaserJock> vyoman: #ubuntu-motu is the place to start
[10:48] <claudiu> LaserJock: I mean hide the dirty apt-get, and show only aptitude to the user
[10:48] <LaserJock> because it isn't dirty
[10:48] <vyoman> thanks i have been looking at ubuntu-java but not much is happening there over the last week or so
[10:48] <LaserJock> and we show the user gnome-app-install and synaptic
[10:49] <vyoman> is there a way to find a mentor? someone i could help out and learn?
[10:49] <ubuntu_> hello ubuntuists
[10:49] <LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors
[10:50] <vyoman> fantastic lots to read, thanks!
[10:57] <claudiu> The best philosophy for a developer is to think about the majority of users/situations
[10:58] <claudiu> and not to think about ALL users/situations
[10:58] <ubuntu_> how has Open Week been going ?
[10:58] <ubuntu_> I've missed most of it
[11:01] <LaserJock> ubuntu_: it's gone fantastic, IMO
[11:02] <claudiu> there are all nice people here
[11:02] <davmor2> been great
[11:02] <PriceChild> just remember it doesn't end after this week :)
[11:03] <PriceChild> there are loads of channels you can contribute in for ever
[11:03] <claudiu> PriceChild: how is that ?
[11:03] <PriceChild> its not like we've only just come on irc for this week
[11:03] <claudiu> PriceChild: oh
[11:03] <PriceChild> don't just disappear :)
[11:05] <claudiu> !seen mark
[11:05] <claudiu> :)
[11:05] <LaserJock> he was around this morning
[11:05] <LaserJock> might be a little late for him now though
[11:06] <claudiu> the list of names in the right panel of my IRC client sesms like my sources.list :))
[11:06] <claudiu> the list of names in the right panel of my IRC client seems like my sources.list :))
[11:07] <claudiu> thats cool
[11:07] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: He's still logged in, fwiw
[11:07] <LaserJock> I know
[11:07] <LaserJock> he's probably watching us now
[11:07] <ubuntu_> I'm reading docs on how to create a package
[11:07] <ubuntu_> are packagers needed for the Ubuntu project ?
[11:07] <LaserJock> hehe
[11:08] <LaserJock> of course
[11:08] <ubuntu_> are there packages that need to be assigned to people ?
[11:08] <ubuntu_> or do people just package new stuff and submit it ?
[11:08] <davmor2> LaserJock: you forgot to look up he is sabdfl after all
[11:08] <LaserJock> package stuff and submit it
[11:09] <ubuntu_> ok
[11:09] <LaserJock> davmor2: I didn't, I just didn't feel like bothering him
[11:09] <LaserJock> ubuntu_: if you are interested check out #ubuntu-motu
[11:09] <davmor2> :)
[11:09] <ubuntu_> LaserJock: thank you
[11:09] <LaserJock> the MOTU are the developers who look after Universe and Multiverse
[11:09] <ubuntu_> kewlness
[11:10] <LaserJock> ubuntu_: it's an all volunteer effort and you're welcome to help out
[11:10] <ubuntu_> LaserJock: OK
[11:12] <kishan> hi
[11:14] <claudiu> hey, what about a ubuntu online magazine ? with newsletters and stuff ?
[11:15] <claudiu> with free pdf version so that anyone could print it and distribute it ?
[11:16] <claudiu> a magazine-like front-end for ubuntu-wiki could be cool
[11:16] <claudiu> what do you think?
[11:16] <PriceChild> http://fridge.ubuntu.com
[11:16] <PriceChild> check that out claudiu :)
[11:18] <claudiu> well fridge is rather like a blog, i think..
[11:18] <Adri2000> claudiu: there a an ubuntu weekly newsletter
[11:19] <LaserJock> there is a longstanding "project" by the marketing team to create an Ubuntu magazine
[11:19] <LaserJock> but I don't think it's really taken off
[11:19] <claudiu> i was thinking about integrating all these in one flashy thing like a magazine, with pictures and stuff
[11:20] <kishan> does any one here from medical ubuntu project
[11:20] <Adri2000> claudiu: of course I meant "there is..."
[11:20] <claudiu> Adri2000: dont worry I can recognize a typo :)
[11:20] <Adri2000> :p
[11:21] <claudiu> does anyone agree that kmenu should be able to sort menu items ?
[11:24] <claudiu> I saw a nice thing about using beryl for notifications with water efect, did anyone see that ?
[11:24] <claudiu> i think it was on youtube
[11:25] <PriceChild> bah.... messed with beryl slightly too mcuh
[11:33] <kishan> can any one help to install ubuntu live support
[11:34] <kishan> any one in here
[11:35] <kishan> can any one help in installing ubuntu live support
[11:36] <LaserJock> I'm not really sure what you mean
[11:36] <finalbeta> What happens with specs listed on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+specs (Edgy) that have a started/good progress/beta status and are not on the Feisty page? Will they still be implemented?
[11:36] <LaserJock> but #ubuntu would probably be the best place to ask
[11:36] <kishan> LaserJock: thanks
[11:37] <LaserJock> finalbeta: well, I would think they would continue, but the might not be as high of a priority