[12:28] <jenda> There is a quiz in #ubuntu-trivia starting in a few minutes! The lucky winner will be getting a free Ubuntu Poster!!!
[12:32] <graham_100> maniacmusician
[01:10] <graham_100> !paste bin
[01:10] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about paste bin - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[01:11] <graham_100> !pastebin
[01:11] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (be sure to give the URL of your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[08:25] <eneried> hi
[09:00] <poningru> eneried: hello
[09:01] <eneried> hello, this is the place for Ubuntu Free Week?
[09:02] <eyequeue> Open Week?  yes
[09:02] <eneried> yes yes Open Week
[09:03] <eyequeue> The schedule is in the URL in the /topic, but it seems quiet for the next few hours
[09:03] <eyequeue> I plan on idling my client in here, and if i happen to fall asleep, i can scroll back at least :)
[09:04] <eneried> ah, but i ... couldn't calculate time
[09:04] <eneried> hehe
[09:04] <eneried> a mistake
[09:04] <eyequeue> @NOW
[09:04] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 02 2006, 08:04:54
[09:05] <eyequeue> @EST
[09:05] <eyequeue> try something like  those, if they help
[09:06] <poningru> eneried: whats up?
[09:06] <poningru> did you just wanna hang out or have any questions?
[09:06] <poningru> I can try and answer those questions
[09:06] <poningru> :)
[09:07] <eyequeue> i know in -meeting the bot is programmed to tell when the next meeting is, but i'm not sure if it knows the class schedule for -classroom
[09:07] <eneried> i was waiting for the meeting, but i commited a mistake, when calculating time
[09:07] <poningru> ah cool
[09:07] <eneried> i  thin k the time ws now, buy is in 7 hours
[09:08] <eneried> then maybe is better for me to sleep
[09:08] <eneried> hehe
[09:08] <eyequeue> grab sleep while you can :)
[09:13] <eneried> hehe thanks
[09:14] <eneried> see you later
[12:57] <stanz> ahh~ finally got here...but-just in from work and hitting the sack! :)  will check this out later. Thanks all!!
[02:53] <bhtb> hi!
[02:54] <rubia> hi!
[02:54] <Schnorgi> hi
[02:55] <nixternal> low
[03:04] <zilo> hello
[03:52] <jono> yo
[03:52] <rmjb_> 'sup
[03:52] <bhtb> hey
[03:52] <elkbuntu> howdy jono :)
[03:52] <jono> hey elkbuntu :)
[03:54] <thiebaude> hi jono
[03:54] <jono> hi thane
[03:54] <jono> oops
[03:54] <jono> hi thiebaude
[03:54] <thane> :)
[03:58] <Bourlotieris> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[03:59] <Bourlotieris> * :)
[04:02] <elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the second LoCo Teams introduction session.
[04:02] <elkbuntu> As always, questions to be prefixed with QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and i'll fetch them as they're relevant :)
[04:03] <elkbuntu> Today will be pretty much identical to Thursday's session, but of course, with different people we get a whole new bunch of cool questions. So, lets get on with things :)
[04:03] <elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. If you are wondering what that title involves, fear not, for we will be discussing it over the course of this session. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
[04:03] <elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be discussing a number of aspects of LoCo Teams. This includes, but is not limited to:
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * Who leads the LoCo?
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * How I can find my LoCo Team?
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * But, I can't see a LoCo Team for me!
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * How do I start a LoCo?
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * Approved vs New
[04:03] <elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
[04:04] <elkbuntu> Now, lets start at the beginning. What are LoCo Teams?
[04:04] <elkbuntu> A LoCo (short for Local Community) Team is a group of (in our case) Ubuntu users within a Localised Community.
[04:04] <elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
[04:05] <elkbuntu> A LoCo can involve a lot of things such as local promotion, support in the local language, general support to local users and much more.
[04:05] <elkbuntu> LoCo Teams can be based around location, such as in my case, Australia.
[04:05] <elkbuntu> Because people in Australia speak English, there is not a strong need for language-based activities. Our primary focus is advocacy within Australia, but we do a small amount of support.
[04:06] <elkbuntu> Language based teams include for instance, the Spanish Team, which is based primarily around the Spanish language and hence includes most, if not all, the Spanish-speaking countries.
[04:06] <elkbuntu> Because Spanish is a very widely spoken language, the team's efforts would have a greater focus on providing support in Spanish and translating Ubuntu. There are still, of course, advocacy efforts within the team.
[04:06] <elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is also important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
[04:06] <ubunturos_> someone use my computer run firefox 2.0 running :(
[04:07] <ubunturos_> computer to start / run
[04:07] <elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
[04:07] <elkbuntu> Does anyone have questions about what I've covered so far?
[04:08] <elkbuntu> One question we get asked a lot by new teams is "Who leads the LoCo?".
[04:08] <elkbuntu> Generally, this is done by the LoCo Team Contact.
[04:09] <elkbuntu> The contact may be the founder, who has self-appointed his or herself, or, he or she may have been democratically elected.
[04:09] <elkbuntu> There's no 'right' way to do it, and some teams even have multiple contacts.
[04:09] <elkbuntu> What works for *your team* is best, and it may take a few tries to figure out what this is.
[04:10] <elkbuntu> The responsibilities of the Team Contact vary with the focus of the team, but a general guideline is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamContact
[04:10] <elkbuntu> In my role as the LoCo Team Contact for Ubuntu-Au, my responsibilities generally include maintaining regular meetings, delegating tasks, channel upkeep and moderation and so forth.
[04:11] <elkbuntu> LoCo Contacts should be subscribed to the loco-contacts mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts) and hang out in #ubuntu-locoteams.
[04:11] <elkbuntu> The team contact is also the public face of the LoCo. He/She acts as the main communication bridge between the team and the community at large. Given this, a grasp on the English language is almost necessary.
[04:11] <elkbuntu> It is possible that the contact may be approached by media, or get direct support requests, as their contact details are, or at least should be, easily obtainable.
[04:12] <elkbuntu> Ok, some questions :)
 QUESTION/COMMENT: while language activities are not seen as important in English-speaking countries, note that there are many variants of English. The English Translation team, for example, tries to cater for en_GB and its dialects
[04:13] <elkbuntu> This is a good point, thanks yama :)
 QUESTION: what's the smallest LoCo team now? My country is already small and probably has only a handful of Ubuntu users
[04:13] <elkbuntu> I have no idea. there's probably locos with just 1 or 2 people in them that are still trying to get off the ground.
 Question: when there is a conflict or difference of opinion on who leads a loco team, where do we go or who solves the issue ?
[04:14] <elkbuntu> I believe we have a wiki page about this, im just quickly tyring to find it for you :)
[04:15] <elkbuntu> I was right, yay! take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoResolvingProblems
[04:15] <techno_freak> elkbuntu: sure :)
 CONTACT: Is the "leader" LoCo Team Contact by default, and should LoCo Team Contact be a fluent English speaker?
[04:16] <elkbuntu> As I said before, it varies between teams. It is advisable that there's at least someone nominated to translate for the team and for the people outside the team. it makes working things out much easier
 QUESTION: are the university based loCo's,if so can you mention one so we can follow footsteps
[04:17] <elkbuntu> I dont know of any specific university based teams, but the Chicago team is based around one city, so it's probably worth contacting them :)
[04:17] <effie_jayx> thnx
[04:17] <elkbuntu> I'll continue with the class script a bit now
[04:17] <elkbuntu> Some people in here have probably already located their LoCo Team. Some others may want to know "How I can find my LoCo Team?"
[04:18] <elkbuntu> A good way to find your LoCo Team, is to visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and see if there is a team in your area.
[04:18] <elkbuntu> If there are several teams that apply to you, the team at country or state level is probably the team you should join first, although there's nothing stopping you being in multiple LoCos.
[04:18] <elkbuntu> Now, if any of you are in the situation where you are looking at the teams list and thinking "But, I can't see a LoCo team for me!", then there's a good chance one may not exist.
[04:18] <elkbuntu> There is a possibility that your team just has not added themselves to the list, so check the channels list here on freenode, and/or do a google for the team name.
[04:19] <elkbuntu> For example, the Australian team is "Ubuntu-au". "au" is the ISO code for Australia.
[04:19] <elkbuntu> If after searching, you cannot see a team then there probably is not one.
[04:19] <elkbuntu> If you are really interested in LoCo work, then it is time to find some other people and start one.
[04:20] <elkbuntu> I know a few people are here wanting to know "How do I start a LoCo?". Well luckily, it's not rocket science.
[04:20] <elkbuntu> The main things you need are people and communication. It is recommended that you start by setting up a mailing list and an IRC channel.
[04:20] <elkbuntu> We can help with this in various ways. Well, we cannot help you gather the people, but the other things we can help with.
[04:20] <elkbuntu> For a mailing list, we prefer if the list is created through Ubuntu's mailman system. For this, email mailman@lists.ubuntu.com
[04:20] <elkbuntu> To register your LoCo Channel, see '/msg chanserv help register' for instructions. The channel should be #ubuntu-cc where 'cc' is your country ISO code.
[04:21] <effie_jayx> elkbuntu, ;)
[04:21] <elkbuntu> IRC channels are best done here on Freenode. Almost all Ubuntu channels are here, and it's useful to have all the channels together.
[04:21] <elkbuntu> Not only that, Ubuntu has built up a very good relationship with the Freenode staff, so we're able to pull strings. It's quite convenient.
[04:22] <elkbuntu> Another important point about using the Ubuntu mailman and Freenode, is that if for some unfortunate reason, the team leader was to disappear into thin air (and yes, this happens), it is much easier to negotiate the reassigning of privileges.
[04:22] <elkbuntu> We've had proof of this concept in the past 48 hours. The venezuelan LoCo has been able to reclaim use of their channel :)
[04:22] <elkbuntu> Anyway, Once you have the basic structure set up, you're a LoCo team.
[04:22] <SimonAnibal> elkbuntu: WooHoo! Thanks!
[04:23] <effie_jayx> D
[04:23] <effie_jayx> :D
[04:23] <elkbuntu> Whilst it is not entirely mandatory, it's strongly suggested you sign the team up at Launchpad.net. This lets us know the team exists, for a start, but it also makes it easy to see who is in the team for purposes of verifing things if something goes wrong.
[04:23] <elkbuntu> Launchpad also incorporates the Rosetta translation tools, which is what Ubuntu uses for translations.
[04:23] <elkbuntu> With Launchpad, there are also other ways to contribute to Ubuntu as a whole (outside the realm of LoCo Teams), as has been pointed out over the past few days. Communication and contribution with the rest of the Ubuntu community is essential for a team's success.
 Question: what support do loco team gets for taking up localization and internationalization efforts within its zone ?
[04:24] <elkbuntu> Im not entirely sure what you mean by this. The Rosetta system within launchpad is quite well supported by Canonical.
 QUESTION: in a similar vein to my previous comment, is there a recommended way and/or infrastructure for speakers of dialects of the same language (e.g. Spanish, French, Portuguese) to collaborate on translations? At present, there is a lot of duplication of effort.
[04:25] <elkbuntu> I would think that there would be things for this within rosetta. I'm not at all familiar with the system so i cannot comfortably comment here.
 QUESTION: Is there a recommended minimum area for a LoCo team? For instance, would three teams in the same city be seen as splintering the community or catering to specific needs?
[04:26] <elkbuntu> I would say that situation would be a bit ridiculous. However, if the city has several million people, it could well be feasible
 QUESTION: Could our Team will be based not in a place but a need?
[04:27] <elkbuntu> Do you mean such as language?
 COMMENT: Gmane can be used for those who would prefer a web-based interface to the mailing lists. <yama> that way, you can avoid the community being split between a mailing list and a Web forum
[04:28] <elkbuntu> thanks for that, yama :)
[04:28] <elkbuntu> You may or may not have heard reference to 'approved' and 'new' LoCo Teams. This has caused confusion in the past, so I'll cover it now.
[04:28] <eneried> meybe a language, maybe a culture based task, an investigation work, an internet thing not suitable for localization. music for example
[04:29] <elkbuntu> eneried, yes. very much so. im pretty certain that the spanish team goes beyond the boundries of spain, for instance
[04:30] <elkbuntu> An approved team is a team that is up and running, has each of the required resources in operation and the team is working well.
[04:30] <elkbuntu> When you become an approved team, it will make you eligible for certain benefits such as marketing materials, etc
[04:30] <elkbuntu> An approved team is also considered officially by the Ubuntu project, and the process involves going before the Community Council.
[04:30] <elkbuntu> New teams are equally important to us, and we do support them by providing services such as hosting, a domain, mailing lists etc to help them become established.
[04:30] <elkbuntu> Once a new team has been set up with the basic mail/irc/launchpad structure, and have been around for a while, there should be no problem getting approved.
[04:31] <elkbuntu> If the team chooses to remain unapproved, we're ok with that too, but there are benefits, as mentioned above, for being approved.
[04:31] <elkbuntu> If you have questions about, or your team requires any of the LoCo services mentioned today, please join #ubuntu-locoteams and ask away, or sign up to the mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts) if you prefer that way of asking.
[04:31] <elkbuntu> eneried asked: QUESTION: our Team has the new status, how we can claim for the benefits related? i mean hosting, for example. Does this answer your question, eneried?
[04:32] <eneried> a little
 QUESTION: Hello elkbuntu, how non-english LoCo Teams can coordinate?
[04:33] <elkbuntu> mruiz, clarification please? Do you mean between each other, or within themselves?
[04:34] <mruiz> elkbuntu, between different Teams
[04:35] <elkbuntu> that's the point behind having an english-speaking contact. English is like the official language, if you want to look at it like that
 QUESTION: asking about a host and domain... with who we must contact to get both things?
[04:35] <elkbuntu> Please join the channel I mentioned before (#ubuntu-locoteams) and we can discuss it later
 QUESTION: does the mailing list have to be registerd in the ubuntu server to count as a mailinglist to enable eligibility for aproval?
[04:36] <elkbuntu> effie_jayx, I'm not 100% sure, but it's preferred at least.
[04:36] <effie_jayx> ok
[04:36] <eneried> elkubuntu, thanks, question asnwered
 QUESTION: Do teams for multilingual countries like Switzerland have their own language teams (swiss = swiss-fr + swiss-de + swiss-it) or do they just overlap with/act separately from the main language teams?
[04:37] <elkbuntu> I'm going to point you towards a fellow who goes by the nick 'looksaus' for this one. he is the belgian loco contact. if he's not on now, keep an eye out for him, he hangs out in the locoteams channel
[04:37] <elkbuntu> If you were not before, you may now (hopefully) be wondering "How can I get involved?".
[04:37] <elkbuntu> For most teams, just being on the mailing list, in the IRC channel or on the launchpad.net team is sufficient to join the team, and once you have done this, you can contribute in a variety of ways.
[04:38] <elkbuntu> As mentioned above, LoCo Teams involve a variety of project areas. These can include local support, translation, and local promotion, or even simply documenting the team and it's activites.
[04:38] <elkbuntu> If you unsure of how best to get involved with your LoCo, a good idea is to ask a prominent member within the team. They often know what areas need more man (or woman) power.
[04:39] <elkbuntu> Alternatively, if you are for instance, interested in seeing more promotional material that is relevant to your country, then you could simply create the material you feel is missing.
[04:39] <elkbuntu> When you've done whatever you felt necessary, tell people in the LoCo about it. Showing initiative is also a good way to get respect :)
[04:39] <elkbuntu> On a larger level, groups of LoCo members can get together to stage install-fests, or run booths at computer fairs.
[04:39] <elkbuntu> There are alot of great LoCos around, and we're fortunate to have had some of them collaborate to provide us with our (still fledgling) knowledgebase.
[04:40] <elkbuntu> If you want to find out more about joining, establishing or running LoCos, you can see the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase wiki page.
 QUESTION: Can you give a couple examples of the AU LoCo team's activities since it's already english?
[04:40] <elkbuntu> We had a pretty good turn-out at Software Freedom Day this year :)
 QUESTION: About LoCo Team logo, how create a logo and respect the Ubuntu Logo trademark (for example no modify it)?
[04:42] <elkbuntu> Work within your team and come up with a design everyone is happy with. once you've done that, there is a process... let me find the wiki page
[04:44] <elkbuntu> ... and it seems it is taking a while
[04:44] <mruiz> :)
 Question: For making use of the support for promotional activities, is it necessary that a loco team member should approach only through the Loco team contact/head ?
[04:44] <elkbuntu> Yes, it is the preferred way.
[04:45] <elkbuntu> mruiz, google to the rescue! http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy/
[04:45] <mruiz> thanks
 QUESTION:going back to question about a need, for example, we could have a Team for bioiformatics, astonomy or medicine needs, but bioinformatics researchers, astronomers and doctors are not in same place (ans come could not, who are in observatories for example), could that communities work like a LoCo Team?
[04:46] <elkbuntu> eneried, anything is possible. I've not really seen such subteams within a loco before, but if there are distinct groups then I see no reason why it would not work
[04:47] <elkbuntu> Any more questions?
 QUESTION: For example, some guys from Dominican Republic contact me because they need some help to create their LoCo. Can mentoring program include non-english speakers LoCo Teams?
[04:49] <elkbuntu> Most certainly! If your team is able to help out, then go for it :)
[04:50] <elkbuntu> We'd appreciate if you could document the process. we're always looking for new case studies to help us define some best practices for mentoring
[04:50] <mruiz> cool
[04:51] <elkbuntu> Anyone else? the only stupid question is the one not asked :)
 QUESTION: What kind of relationship must be between a LoCo Team an the OpenSource movenment? Could the LoCo Team work in closed source apps or solutions (off course never closing ubuntu itself), or mixed solutions (computers with mac and ubuntu in same local network)?
[04:55] <elkbuntu> Hmm.. im starting to think your focus is less about LoCo and more about target areas. There's nothing stopping you creating teams such as 'Science team'
[04:55] <elkbuntu> sorry for the delay in answer, i had to think there :)
 QUESTION: Is possible than a LoCo Team have 2 o more LoCo contacts?
[04:56] <elkbuntu> Yes, I believe the french team have 3. (i may be mistaken on who and how many)
 QUESTION: I said Open Source, but ubuntu is not only source code. Here in colombia we have a great ned, a lot of people does not know what Open Source or even linux is!! And i talk about classroom teacher, about politicians, about journalist... any effective idea or experience to tell us how to make them know about ubuntu, and what not to do in the LoCo to reach that goal?
[04:58] <elkbuntu> ... im really not sure what you're trying to ask. Within a LoCo, people often have a role. Nothing is stopping people having consultative roles
 QUESTION: Do LoCo's normally meet? I'm interested in installfests and meetings and I was wondering if a loco would be the place for that
[04:59] <elkbuntu> A loCo is an ideal group to hold install fests and so forth
[04:59] <elkbuntu> I think that's enough. We're going to run over time if i do any more questions
[05:00] <elkbuntu> And saying that...
[05:00] <elkbuntu> Here is the ever delightful Daniel Holbach to tell you all about MOTU :)
[05:00] <dholbach> Everybody give a big hand for the magnificent elkbuntu.
[05:01] <dholbach> thank you elkbuntu :)
[05:01] <thiebaude> thanks and good day, elkbuntu
[05:01] <samgee> thx
[05:01] <KillGore> bye
[05:01] <elkbuntu> dholbach, for you my dear, any time :)
[05:01] <dholbach>  .-)
[05:01] <dholbach> HELLO EVERYBODY
[05:01] <dholbach> this session is going to be about MOTU, the Master of the Universe!
[05:01] <rmjb> HELLO dholbach
[05:01] <thiebaude> hello dholbach
[05:02] <dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, work for Canonical and my main objectives are Ubuntu's Desktop and working with teams like MOTU, Telepathy, Accessibility, the Art team and others. I joined the MOTUs nearly two years ago and we were around 5 of them at that time.
[05:02] <dholbach> I should probably say, that I'm happy to take questions in between, so don't be shy.
[05:03] <dholbach> The name originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages. 'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community. 'main' and 'restricted' hold 4829 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 15855. So as the name suggests, the MOTU team takes care of 'universe' (and 'multiverse' also). We currently have 57 members. And we hang out in #ubuntu-motu - so
[05:03] <dholbach>  if you're interested in helping out and get to know the people and packaging, join us and have fun
[05:04] <dholbach> So what do MOTUs generally do?
[05:04] <kalon34> thanks elkbuntu
[05:04] <dholbach> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages. The good thing about Ubuntu is that we don't follow the concept of applying the rigorous big maintainer lock, it's your choice which package you take care of.
[05:05] <eneried> thanks elkubuntu
[05:05] <dholbach> We have people
[05:05] <dholbach>  * taking care only of their own packages
[05:05] <dholbach>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
[05:05] <dholbach>  * fixing lots of different packages
[05:05] <dholbach> (* working on no packages at all)
[05:06] <dholbach> So if you belong to the last category, listen up! This is your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community. :-D
[05:06] <dholbach> Any questions up until now?
[05:07] <dholbach> So who of you is already part of the MOTU process?
[05:07] <dholbach> rmjb: Excellent#
[05:07] <dholbach> Anybody in here considering joining the team?
[05:08] <dholbach> I'll just go on and if you have questions or ideas what you'd like to do we can try to get into more detail there
 QUESTION: dholbach, Which knowledges are needed to join MOTU team ?
[05:08] <dholbach> gracias elkbuntu
[05:08] <kalon34> maybe me, depends on competences needed.
[05:09] <dholbach> kalon34: we had people joining the team, who were just curious and had basic linux skills.
[05:09] <dholbach> kalon34: and they did a good job.
[05:09] <dholbach> Key to having fun and profiting of the MOTU world is to be interested and motivated, talk to people and learn a lot
[05:10] <dholbach> if you already built  source from scratch, wrote small programs, know how to use shell scripts, even better
[05:10] <dholbach> but we have people at any skill level in the MOTU team, so you'll always find somebody you can learn something from
[05:11] <dholbach> I'll go on now with what I've prepared - feel free to ask more questions in -chat
[05:11] <dholbach> So how do I become a MOTU?
[05:11] <soulrider> err, whats a MOTU? =/
[05:11] <dholbach> That's very easy. You basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
[05:11] <dholbach> soulrider: I think I answered that before but maybe wasn't clear enough
[05:11] <soulrider> or amybe i wasnt here? :P
[05:11] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU might explain some bits, but here's the short story again:
[05:12] <dholbach> no you weren't
[05:12] <soulrider> ok, thanks
[05:12] <elkbuntu> soulrider, please ask future questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
[05:12] <dholbach> MOTUs are the Masters of the Universe, the community package maintainers, the people taking care of the Universe and Multiverse sections of Ubuntu's packages
[05:12] <soulrider> k
[05:12] <dholbach> MOTUs are the community package maintainers
[05:12] <elkbuntu> there's a question, is it ok for now?
[05:13] <dholbach> sure
 QUESTION: dholbach, do you consider a MOTU mentoring plan?
[05:13] <dholbach> and apart from that a group of people having a lot of fun and hanging out in #ubuntu-motu :)
[05:13] <kalon34> QUESTION: Is there somewhere with the process to follow or can you describe it please ?
[05:13] <dholbach> mruiz: I'm not quite sure I understand the question. We do have people mentoring MOTU hopefuls. What is your exact question? If we have a strict plan to do the mentoring?
[05:14] <elkbuntu> kalon34, please ask future questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
[05:14] <dholbach> kalon34: i'll answer this question and then go on to explain how to get there.
[05:14] <dholbach> mruiz: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors might answer your question, if not, please ask again
[05:14] <kalon34> sorry, elkbuntu, I'm losed with all my windows ^^
[05:15] <kalon34> thanks dholbach :)
[05:15] <dholbach> I personally always found the second way (to work on existing packages) to be much easier and you learn a lot along the way. As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you. We have a lightweight process for that in place.
 QUESTION: How can someone who is not yet an MOTU help with the merging / syncing process? Isn't a MOTU always needed for this?
[05:16] <dholbach> rmjb: that might also answer your question: we do sponsoring, which means that somebody who has upload rights already reviews your patch or package and then does the upload for you
[05:16] <rmjb> cool
 QUESTION: dholbach, I don't know that you have people mentoring MOTU. Can you explain it?
[05:16] <dholbach> mruiz: if you look at the page I mentioned to you, you will find a list of people and mail adresses there
[05:17] <dholbach> mruiz: just mail anybody of them - all of them are happy to take on MOTU hopefuls to walk them through the basic first steps in the MOTU world
[05:17] <mruiz> thanks, dholbach
[05:17] <dholbach> ok cool
[05:17] <dholbach> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but also a matter of teamwork and trust. The current process asks you to become an Ubuntu member in the Community Council meeting (where you are recognized for your efforts) and become a member of 'ubuntu-dev' after the Technical Board was happy with you on a technical basis. That process will change in the near future and a MOTU council (let's see if it will be called
[05:17] <dholbach>  'Council Grayskull' in the end...), which will do the approval.
[05:18] <mruiz> dholbach, I will check it
[05:18] <dholbach> mruiz: Anything you're intersted in particularly?
[05:18] <dholbach> some kind of package (or group of packages) or something you'd like to look after?
[05:19] <mruiz> dholbach, desktop packages are so interesting
[05:19] <dholbach> excellent
[05:19] <dholbach> be sure to tell me what your plans are and we'll figure something out
[05:19] <dholbach> maybe in a mail
[05:19] <dholbach> (Keep the questions coming...)
[05:19] <dholbach> Here some things the MOTUs do:
[05:20] <dholbach> We work on Bugs, so just to put some numbers into the discussion
[05:20] <dholbach>  * 10563 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (66274 in Ubuntu total)
[05:20] <dholbach>  * 6739 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (46063 closed in Ubuntu total)
[05:20] <dholbach> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone. If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
[05:20] <dholbach>  1) team members,
[05:20] <dholbach>  2) the Debian maintainer and
[05:20] <dholbach>  3) the upstream author
[05:20] <dholbach> you can ask and work with. Working on bugs is highly rewarding: sometimes it's a one line fix, you find in the upstream CVS already and you make a lot of users happy.
 QUESTION: Do all upstream packages go through MOTU before entering the repos?
[05:21] <dholbach> LKRaider: No, we inherit an awful lot of packages from Debian automatically.
[05:22] <LKRaider> ok
[05:22] <dholbach> LKRaider: in the times where we're not in Freeze times (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule will show), we automatically sync the source from Debian packages (if we don't have changes that might get overwritten)
 QUESTION: what ubuntu mailing lists should a MOTU Hopeful subscribe to other than ubuntu-motu?
[05:23] <dholbach> so sometimes you upload a new package to ubuntu and in the next cycle there's a debian maintainer you can merge your efforts with
[05:23] <dholbach> it's really to cool to have another somebody to work with on the package, so that's great
[05:23] <dholbach> rmjb: good question, ubuntu-devel-announce@ and ubuntu-devel@ are good fits also, because it's good to know what's planned, which big changes are going to be introduced, etc
[05:24] <dholbach> I'd also recommend to read  feisty-changes@  which send you a mail for every package change that is uploaded
[05:24] <dholbach> these are only changelogs, but still you get a general gist of what's going on - so if you have packages that you need to integrate yours with, you can easily find out what happened there
[05:25] <dholbach> apart from that it brings a certain learning experience to see what other package maintainers do
[05:25] <dholbach> and then of course upstream mailing lists, so if you're package maintainer for say abiword, you might want to sign up for their lists too
[05:26] <dholbach> I'm subscribed to loads of other mailing lists too, but that should be a good start and not be too scary :-)
[05:26] <dholbach> TEAMS
[05:26] <dholbach> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
[05:26] <dholbach>  * Games team
[05:26] <dholbach>  * Media team
[05:26] <dholbach>  * Science team
[05:26] <dholbach>  * Photo team
[05:26] <dholbach>  * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
[05:27] <dholbach> and a lot of other teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that. If you have good ideas for a team and want to kickstart it, let me know: dholbach@ubuntu.com
 QUESTION:does Edgy MOTU get version bumps and updates or are the versions locked in the same way main is?
[05:27] <dholbach> jorgp: Edgy is released, which means it is LOCKED.
[05:27] <dholbach> We currently work on Feisty.
[05:27] <dholbach> of course you get security fixes in   edgy-security
[05:27] <dholbach> and high-profile bug fixes in   edgy-updates
[05:28] <dholbach> (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates has more info about that one)
[05:28] <dholbach> and specific backports in   edgy-backports
 QUESTION: Is uploading packages a one time activity for a release? I mean can I build a new package or a new version for an existing package for edgy/dapper now?
[05:29] <dholbach> pradeep: I'm not quite sure I understand. You can't upload to Edgy or Dapper now. They're both released.
[05:29] <dholbach> Which means they're locked. Frozen.
[05:29] <dholbach> pradeep: Can you elaborate or does that answer your question?
 oops i think the question is repeated ... :/
[05:29] <pradeep> dholbach, yes that answers my question.
[05:30] <dholbach> pradeep: Alrighty
[05:30] <dholbach> Mentoring
[05:30] <dholbach> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
[05:30] <dholbach> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail. Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today! :-)
[05:31] <dholbach> ( https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu )
[05:31] <dholbach> Something we do at the moment: Merges
[05:31] <dholbach> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers. So this is what we currently do for Feisty. If you want to help out, just grab a merge from http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/multiverse.html and go ahead.
[05:32] <dholbach> Any more questions?
[05:32] <elkbuntu> not currently
[05:32] <dholbach> there's the MOTU School
[05:32] <dholbach> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School - if you want to hold a session or request a session, let us know on the mailing list and on the wiki pages.
[05:33] <elkbuntu> jorgp> QUESTION: you said security updates make it into edgy release, what about bug fixes?
[05:33] <dholbach> so if you look at named page, you'll find that we did some sessions already and there are really good logs you can just dive into
[05:33] <dholbach> jorgp: I said that high-profile bugs go into edgy-updates
[05:34] <dholbach> if we look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates the requirements are:
[05:34] <dholbach> Stable release updates will, in general, only be issued in order to fix high-impact bugs. Examples of such bugs include:
[05:34] <dholbach>     *
[05:34] <dholbach>       Bugs which may, under realistic circumstances, directly cause a security vulnerability
[05:34] <dholbach>     *
[05:34] <dholbach>       Bugs which represent severe regressions from the previous release of Ubuntu
[05:34] <dholbach>     *
[05:34] <dholbach>       Bugs which may, under realistic circumstances, directly cause a loss of user data
[05:34] <dholbach> if you look at the page some more, that our policy is very strict
[05:35] <dholbach> that's for a reason - some of you might remember the problems with the X server updates that left people without X and just a black screen and wonky messages
[05:35] <elkbuntu> how could i forget
[05:36] <dholbach> but as I said, we 1) don't rule out such updates and 2) have backports which are less conservative but of course we can't packages that require too intrusive changes
[05:36] <dholbach> jorgp: does that answer your question?
 QUESTION: dholbach, you told us that MOTU also works in bugs... what is the difference between MOTU and Bug Squad team?
[05:36] <kalon34> how to forget it, anxious behind our pc ^^
[05:37] <dholbach> mruiz: the BugSquad helps out to triage bugs, which means: 1) get more information from the reporter, 2) get the right people involved with the bug and so on
[05:37] <dholbach> of course MOTUs do that too and we have people who are active on both fronts
[05:37] <dholbach> but MOTUs actively work on packages and fix them themselves
[05:37] <jorgp> dholbach, yes
[05:37] <dholbach> MOTUs also introduce bugs
[05:37] <dholbach> no, I was kidding about the last point ;-)
[05:38] <dholbach> of course they don't
[05:38] <dholbach> MOTUs: please speak up if you're here and tell us something about you
[05:38] <dholbach> More questions?
[05:38] <elkbuntu> i'll copy them over if they come up
[05:39] <dholbach> Ok, let's move on: Documentation!
[05:39] <dholbach> Jordan Mantha (Laserjock) and others have worked hard on the Packaging Guide, but he'd always be glad to have people who are interested in explaining and helping new MOTU hopefuls to find their way into the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation lists a few pages of interest.
 QUESTION: what about introducing packges that are not on Debian, for example?
[05:39] <dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html is the link to the packaging guide
[05:40] <dholbach> so if you want to help out with that, especially if you don't understand certain sections or would like explain some bits some more, let us know
[05:40] <dholbach> I'll finish the documentation point, then get back to you LKRaider
[05:40] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and its subpages could also do with some helping hands. MOTU is a community effort and has grown into all sorts of directions over time, the wiki pages bear witness of that, so it'd be great if you'd fix whatever documentation you found inaccurate.
[05:41] <dholbach> I know that's probably not a task for newcomers, but the same thing applies here: if you don't understand documentation or it seems broken to you: let us know - just drop a mail on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com and we'll fix it
[05:42] <dholbach> LKRaider: we add new packages that are not in Debian all the time
[05:42] <dholbach> there's no problem with that, it's just nice if you find a RFP (request for package) or ITP (intent to package) in Debian's bug database, that you follow up on the bug and say something along the lines of:
[05:43] <dholbach> "hey guys, I have the package ready, please comment on it and try to get it into debian if you like"
[05:43] <dholbach> because you then have additional people to talk to and work with
[05:43] <dholbach> and that's what we all rely on
[05:43] <dholbach> LKRaider: does that answer your question or do you want to know some more?
[05:44] <LKRaider> so the work is always synched back to Debian?
[05:44] <dholbach> we try to do our best, sometimes it's not easy because we didn't do a transition that debian did already or the other way around
[05:45] <dholbach> for example debian decided to stick with gnome 2.14 for their release and have 2.16 in experimental
[05:45] <dholbach> we're working on 2.17 already
[05:45] <dholbach> and then there are other decisions that just don't match
[05:46] <dholbach> but there's a patches mailing list, which automatically send the patch when the upload happens
[05:46] <dholbach> and then there are maintainers working together closely
[05:46] <dholbach> we have collaboration on different levels
[05:47] <dholbach> LKRaider: interested in that some more? or does that answer the question basically?
[05:47] <LKRaider> it does, thank you :)
[05:48] <dholbach> alrighty
[05:48] <dholbach> So who of you could imagine joining the MOTUs at some point?
[05:48] <dholbach> not now, not tomorrow, but in the near future?
[05:48] <mruiz> me!
[05:48] <LKRaider> me (maybe) :)
[05:49] <pradeep> me too .. at some point
[05:49] <Neonightmare> me also, i do what i can
[05:49] <jorgp> me
[05:49] <dholbach> rock and roll, that's nice to hear
[05:49] <vicox> me too
[05:49] <dholbach> super
[05:49] <zilo_> me
[05:50] <elkbuntu> rmjb> QUESTION: so the process is 1. get ubuntu membership, 2. get ubuntu-dev membership, 3. get ubuntu-motu membership?
[05:50] <dholbach> so if you haven't done already - try to pick somebody from the mentors list and ask them for help if you need
[05:50] <zilo_> It's interesting working with such a big team
[05:50] <dholbach> rmjb: drop the 3rd point. ubuntu-dev means MOTU
[05:50] <dholbach> rmjb: there's only ubuntu-core-dev to go for afterwards, which means upload rights to main and restricted too
[05:51] <rmjb> okay, got that now
[05:51] <dholbach> alrighy
[05:51] <dholbach> who here finds the whole idea of joining the MOTU still intimidating or not easy to achieve?
[05:51] <zilo_> So if I wan't to put mu own program into ubuntu it is possible right?
[05:51] <dholbach> zilo_: absolutely
[05:52] <dholbach> zilo_: if you need help with the packaging, ask in #ubuntu-motu or on the mailing list
[05:52] <juliux> ist (/msg ChanServ HELP LEVEL
[05:52] <zilo_> ok
[05:52] <dholbach> cool
[05:53] <mruiz> if someone can help you, I think that must be easy to join MOTU team
[05:54] <dholbach> it absolutely is - the huge list of merges is a good start and we have a good motu school session about that one already
[05:54] <dholbach> If you want to join the MOTU and help making Universe ROCK, start here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[05:54] <dholbach> and remember: http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/motu.png
[05:54] <rmjb> lol
[05:54] <LKRaider> haha
[05:54] <mruiz> lol
[05:54] <Neonightmare> ;-)
[05:55] <kalon34> lol, very good dholbach ^^ ;)
[05:55] <dholbach> If there's no more question I think we should let the room settle down for the next session, which is about KDE, I believe.
[05:55] <Neonightmare> big thx
[05:56] <zilo_> :D
[05:56] <kalon34> thanks a lot for your explanations
[05:56] <mruiz> thanks dholbach
[05:56] <Bourlotieris> thank you
[05:56] <cs_studen1> thx, great session
[05:56] <Neonightmare> cu in #ubunut-motu ...
[05:56] <dholbach> it was a big pleasure
[05:56] <mruiz> dholbach, next week I will contact you
[05:56] <dholbach> Rock On! :)
[05:57] <mruiz> bye...
[05:58] <LKRaider> thanks dholbach
[05:58] <dholbach> anytime
[05:58] <jorgp> thanks dholbach, great work
[05:59] <rmjb> thanks dholbach, great session... and salesmanship
[05:59] <Maikel> when does the next session start?
[05:59] <dholbach> haha
[05:59] <elkbuntu> see, i told you all he was cool :)
[05:59] <elkbuntu> Maikel, soon
[05:59] <rmjb> is imbrandon here?
[05:59] <Maikel> thanks
[05:59] <elkbuntu> not quite yet :|
[06:00] <Maikel> how late is it in UTC?
[06:00] <lumpki> 17:00 utc
[06:00] <anschel> almost
[06:00] <lumpki> what's next?
[06:01] <elkbuntu> kubuntu
[06:02] <Maikel> when the session starts is someone gonna set a special chan mode?
[06:02] <anschel> who's leading "Kubuntu"
[06:02] <anschel> ?
[06:02] <Maikel> - Brandon Holtsclaw
[06:02] <elkbuntu> aka, imbrandon
[06:02] <anschel> thnx
[06:12] <imbrandon> gooooooooood morning everyone ( now that my internet is working correctly )
[06:12] <nixternal> mornin' sir
[06:12] <ma1kel> morning
[06:12] <imbrandon> how are we doing? anyone here to talk shop about kubuntu ?
[06:12] <LKRaider> *afternoon ;)
[06:12] <TheGateKeeper> ok guys
[06:12] <nixternal> 48 minutes before noon ;)
[06:12] <TheGateKeeper> I like kubuntu but what has motivated me to look to another distro is that you if you upgrade there is a more than reasonable chance the system will break, a clean install (seems to be required) & (k)ubuntu is slow when compared to other distros like arch. So my question is there anything you can do to address these issues?
[06:12] <nixternal> ya imbrandon
[06:12] <nixternal> you are ;p
[06:12] <elkbuntu> ok everyone. lets keep qustions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
[06:13] <nixternal> i just realised i am great at editing existing web pages, but suck when it comes to creating them from scratch
[06:13] <nixternal> doh..thought we were elsewhere...so sorry
[06:13] <elkbuntu> unless imbrandon is happy for a free-for-all in here, of course?
[06:13] <imbrandon> TheGateKeeper: yea we even developers hate that about a transition , we are working very very hard so that is no longer the case
[06:13] <kalon34> good evening imbrandon
[06:14] <imbrandon> ok since i'm running a little late we'll just skip right to the Q & A , if you would keep those to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and nixternal and elkbuntu will paste them in here
[06:14] <imbrandon> sound good?
[06:15] <imbrandon> TheGateKeeper: but yes, that is a major issue, and is very high priority to have fixed from this release onwards
[06:15] <kalon34> maybe could you shortly describe what are you doing in Kubuntu, imbrandon ?
[06:15] <TheGateKeeper> imbrandon, I get the feeling, may be incorrectly, that upgrading from breezy --> dapper is likely to be safer/more successfull than dapper --> edgy?
[06:16] <imbrandon> TheGateKeeper: currently , that is the case , unfortunately
[06:16] <imbrandon> ok kalon34
[06:16] <kalon34> thanks :)
[06:17] <imbrandon> well , My Name is Brandon Holtsclaw, I'm one of the ubuntu Core Developers that work on Kubuntu, no i'm not paid by canonical, My main goals are to have devices in kubuntu "just work" like when you plugin your Zune or iPod it works etc etc etc
[06:17] <imbrandon> along with that
[06:18] <nixternal> [   anschel]  QUESTION: How did you decide which KDE programs to use (konversation, konqueror, etc.) and    jordi which "generic" ones (openoffice)
[06:18] <imbrandon> I mostly maintain Amarok and Konversation in Kubuntu and touch alot of other projects along the way ( like mythtv etc ), and work very closely with people like hobbsee , Riddell , Tonio etc
[06:18] <imbrandon> daily to make Kubuntu what it si :)
[06:19] <nixternal> that was a really goofy paste
[06:19] <anschel> imbrandon?
[06:19] <imbrandon> anschel: well durring Kubuntu meetings ( that have been sus[ended untill after the holidays ) we look at what apps we use by default, we try to use the best kde app for the job whenever humanly possible
[06:20] <kalon34> yes, I saw your name in Amarok uploads in edgy and feisty-changes-request ^^
[06:20] <nixternal> anschel: one sec, im sure he is hitting the mt. dew ;)
[06:20] <imbrandon> as far as the openoffice, that really is the only "generic" app and we're working closely with the koffice guys to get koffice 2 by default, the reason its not now it simple it wont support MS office formats
[06:20] <nixternal> ma1kel]  QUESTION: What's are the major prioritys for the next Kubuntu release?
[06:22] <imbrandon> ma1kel: there are ALOT of things we're going to be working on, but as far as "overall" we're really looking to take the inovation and bold new things we put in in edgy and make them polished into a smooth system, really put some polish and clean up the rough edges
[06:22] <nixternal> another question in 5s
[06:22] <Lure> ma1kel: also update-manager to make upgrades more robust
[06:22] <nixternal> [   kalon34]  QUESTION : It's more personal, but how can you do such important things in Kubuntu and not    jorgp working at Canonical ?
[06:22] <imbrandon> Lure: right on
[06:23] <nixternal> ahh. i know the paste problem now
[06:24] <imbrandon> kalon34: i'm not sure what your asking but , i think its "how can i do important things in kubuntu without working for canonical?" if thats correct of me, then i have to say Canonical underites Ubuntu and its projects like Kubuntu but I'm part of the community and a Core Developer and just made my way through the processes, you dont have to work for Canonical to become a Core Developer or even a MOTU or just contribute
[06:25] <imbrandon> if you ment something diffrent feel free to ask again
[06:25] <nixternal> kalon34: i believe even deeper, a majority of us enjoy working for free to create freedom
[06:25] <kalon34> no, I was that.
QUESTION: What are Kubuntu's plans for composite by default for 7.04?
[06:27] <imbrandon> nixternal: we wont be using a composite manager this round, we are waiting to see what kwin support ( it should have support ) in kde4
[06:27] <imbrandon> so thats on track for the
[06:27] <imbrandon> feisty+1 schedule if at all
[06:27] <nixternal> \o/ YAY! Thanks bud
[06:27] <poningru> someone update the topic please
[06:28] <nixternal> dholbach: could you update the topic?
[06:28] <nixternal> rmjb]  QUESTION: Since Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the same "underneath" where does Ubuntu end and Kubuntu begin?
[06:29] <kalon34> nixternal: yes, me too as a bugsquad member, support answerer and french translator, but I know it takes some time to do this in a good way, so I imagine a developper invest more time, and I think it is difficult.
[06:29] <imbrandon> BTW just as a side note , Kubuntu is always looking for contributors , you dont have to be a "Core" dev etc to help out, just stop by on irc and we'll always point you in the right direction
[06:29] <imbrandon> nixternal is a poster child for a none coder helping :)
[06:29] <imbrandon> ( thats a good thing )
[06:29] <nixternal> adding to what imbrandon just said: if you can't code, document ;)
[06:30] <imbrandon> ok rmjb question
[06:30] <imbrandon> where does ubuntu end and kubuntu begin, thats kinda a fuzzy line, but mostly its in the default setting of the desktop programs and the selection of them
[06:31] <imbrandon> the "core" and the core goals stay the same
[06:31] <imbrandon> like getting it all on one cd , the the beleifs etxc
[06:31] <imbrandon> if you
[06:31] <imbrandon> are on the tech side of the house it ends at "ubuntu-desktop' and kubuntu-desktop packages
[06:32] <imbrandon> thats how we make those choices
[06:32] <imbrandon> so the base system "ubuntu-base" is still exactly the same untouched
[06:33] <nixternal> lotusleaf]  QUESTION: Kdar will not install in Edgy (and some have said it doesn't install in feisty, will Feisty include Kdar, if not, what will replace it?
[06:34] <imbrandon> lotusleaf: if it wont install at all that is a bug and should be address with a SRU foe edgy ( some things slip through the cracks unfortunately ) and durring the release cycle of feisty it will be installable
[06:34] <imbrandon> so for now i dont beleave we are looking for a replacement
[06:34] <nixternal> Bourlotie]  QUESTION: Would you rather be a Canonical employee and work full time on Kubuntu? Do you think that this would make your work more efficiently?
[06:35] <WB|Diego> hi
[06:35] <nixternal> imbrandon: lotusleaf pasted a bug as well - maybe look into it further after the show if possible
[06:35] <imbrandon> Bourlotieris: personaly this is a hard question, I would love to work for canonical sometime , but on that other side of that I have a great job that my company fully supports FLOSS and they let me take time in my day to work on kubuntu some
[06:36] <imbrandon> and i spend a whole lot of free time on it too
[06:36] <imbrandon> but "would i LIKE to" yes i think its every techies dream to do something they love for a living
 when is kde4 scheduled for release?
[06:37] <imbrandon> siretart: there isnt a "hard" schedule atm but they are shooting for about the end of the feisty cycle for an "official" / "final" release, thus we are looking at it for feisty+1
[06:38] <imbrandon> but will have the librarys and snapshots in feisty
[06:38] <imbrandon> ( they are in the repos now )
[06:38] <nixternal> if kde4 comes out during the end or right after the release of feisty, will we backport?
[06:38] <imbrandon> KDE from what i understand is looking to make KDE4 releases time based like GNOME ones so distros like us can count on certain times
[06:39] <imbrandon> if thats a 6 month table or not is yet to be seen
[06:39] <imbrandon> nixternal: not officialy, it might end up on kubuntu.org for early adopters
[06:39] <nixternal> thanks
[06:40] <nixternal> anschel]  QUESTION: If KDE is on a different schedule from Gnome will Kubuntu Still come out every six months?
[06:41] <imbrandon> anschel: yes, definately , for the forseable future we have no plans on splitting the kubuntu/ubuntu releases, there has been talk about it in the past but it would not help us or our users or upstream to doso at the moment
 QUESTION: would you happen to know the current status of Kubuntu Herd 1?
[06:43] <imbrandon> afaik its right on time, the first disk release of a devel cycle is always a bit shakey as they need to work out things like the D-I etc etc , but everything is going right on as planned in the FeistyReleaseSchedule afaik
[06:43] <imbrandon> also that brings up
[06:43] <imbrandon> if you would like to help our semi-orginised testing efferts you are more than welcome to
[06:44] <nixternal> [      rmjb]  QUESTION: how is Kubuntu art handled?
[06:44] <imbrandon> join #kubuntu-testers and test things like the Herd 1 release etc , and give feedback directly to us
[06:45] <kalon34> :/join #ubuntu-testers
[06:45] <imbrandon> rmjb: since Dapper kubuntu Artwork has been handeled by Ken Weimer ( kwwii on irc ) , he has done a bangup job imho and has been asked to come back this cycle also, he works with input ( and sample art from the community ) and makes sure its smooth in the distro
[06:45] <kalon34> oups, sorry ^^
[06:46] <imbrandon> BUT also this time nuno will be joining kwwii , they will share the AiC title for Feisty
[06:46] <rmjb> AiC/
[06:46] <rmjb> ?
[06:46] <imbrandon> rmjb: Artist in Cheif, a role choose by Mark Shuttleworth each cycle for ubuntu and kubuntu ( they are both paid Canonical Contractors )
[06:47] <rmjb> cool, thanks
[06:47] <nixternal> [ lotusleaf]  QUESTION: Do you have any plans to throw new releases of Amarok, Koffice, etc. into one directory so additional entries for new versions between each don't have to be manually added to sources.list each time, and instead can be checked for updates? maybe a bleeding edge or beta repo, so only one line is added and remains for all new bleeding edge builds? (rather than adding amarok, koffice, etc. individual lines each tim
[06:47] <nixternal> let me know if that all pasted
[06:47] <imbrandon> nixternal: yes it did ....
[06:47] <nixternal> cool
[06:48] <nixternal> have fun reading that one ;p
[06:48] <imbrandon> lotusleaf: i know we are going to "clean up" kubuntu.org repos , but for the mostpart we are working with the backports team more closely now and you will see alot more of that in official backports
[06:48] <imbrandon> but all in all , yes it will hapen one way or another
[06:49] <Lure> lotusleaf: Riddell kind of preffer to have it separated...
[06:49] <imbrandon> Lure: right but ther is always "amarok-latest" etc
[06:49] <imbrandon> :)
[06:49] <nixternal> next?
[06:49] <imbrandon> yea
[06:49] <nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: how large is the core kubuntu team right now?
[06:49] <Lure> imbrandon: problem is that we would need something like "kubuntu-backports" (half-official)
[06:50] <nixternal> [  poningru]  1 <--he made a funny
[06:50] <imbrandon> LKRaider: ummm if i'm not missing anyone 4 to 5 , Riddell , Lure, Myself , Tonio and ......
[06:50] <imbrandon> Lure: ^^ help me out on that one
[06:51] <nixternal> Raphink
[06:51] <imbrandon> ahh yes raphink
[06:51] <Lure> imbrandon: 3-4 core-dev's (Riddell, Tonio_, imbrandon, raphink) that work some on kubunut
[06:51] <Lure> some -> most ;-)
[06:51] <nixternal> kubunut, is that a new release? ;p
[06:52] <imbrandon> but we have some dedicated MOTU's also like Hobbsee and Nixternal
[06:52] <imbrandon> but all in all MOTU's + Core-Developers we numnber in less than 10
[06:52] <imbrandon> nixternal: ...... next ? heh
[06:53] <Lure> imbrandon: and there are active upstream supporters (SIme_, sebas, toma...) and debian (allee, fabo...)
[06:53] <nixternal> they are quiet
[06:53] <poningru> :p
[06:53] <nixternal> imbrandon: anschel wonders how he can join the kubuntu cult?
[06:53] <LaserJock> sacrifice some C++ on the kdelibs alter?
[06:54] <LaserJock> just kidding
[06:54] <nixternal> heh
[06:54] <imbrandon> anschel: well the best way at the moment since its not really documents and i just realized that is ....
[06:54] <imbrandon> LaserJock: hahah
[06:54] <imbrandon> anschel: hang out in these three IRC channells and start asking for "jr jobs" #kubuntu-devel ( where we work on the core kubuntu ) #kubuntu-testers and #ubuntu-motu
[06:55] <imbrandon> ^^ thats for the coding side
[06:55] <Lure> anschel: just drop in #kubuntu-devel and talk
[06:55] <imbrandon> if you want something non coding nixternal can fill you in
[06:55] <nixternal> there will be plenty of non-coding work starting soon
[06:56] <nixternal> [ lotusleaf]  QUESTION: will Kubuntu ever have Cinelerra?
[06:56] <imbrandon> BTW everyone , nixternal is our helpfull Kubuntu Doc guy that works relentlessly on the Ubuntu Doc team
[06:56] <sid> How many core kubuntu devs are there?(full time?)
[06:56] <Lure> imbrandon: and on great release announcements!
[06:56] <imbrandon> lotusleaf: I hosnestly am not even aware of that program , but we are always open to sugestions and go through the sugestion list semi often
[06:56] <Lure> sid: 1
[06:57] <sid> And how many core gnome devs?
[06:57] <imbrandon> sid: well 3 , one paid ( for kubuntu )
[06:57] <imbrandon> full time
[06:57] <imbrandon> and ubuntu there are about 10 to 15 , depending on the day
[06:57] <imbrandon> :)
[06:57] <Lure> lotusleaf: you may want to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates/Kubuntu
[06:58] <imbrandon> Lure: yes i was just looking for the url, add it to that please lotusleaf
[06:58] <imbrandon> sid: full time core devs for kubuntu is myself ( community ) tonio ( community ) and riddell ( canonical )
 QUESTION: will Kubuntu continue calling itsel the GNU/Linux distro for everyone? (emphasis on GNU/Linux since Ubuntu doesn't state that)
[06:59] <imbrandon> yes officialy , and no personaly
[06:59] <imbrandon> haha if that makes sense
[06:59] <sid> Does it say GNU/Linux on the website anywhere?
[07:00] <sid> I think this is important also.
[07:00] <nixternal> i got you imbrandon
[07:00] <imbrandon> sid: on the kubuntu.org website , yes
[07:00] <imbrandon> sid: but there is differing opinons on weather the GNU/ should stay
[07:00] <sid> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/sunfire
[07:01] <sid> It says GNU/Linux on some parts of Ubuntu.com, but not on the main page.(where it counts)
[07:01] <imbrandon> sid: correct and IMHO it /shouldent/ but thats something thats just my opinoin and should be left to the CC
[07:02] <imbrandon> man , so many typo's today
[07:02] <nixternal> good job nonetheless mr brandon
[07:03] <kalon33> thanks for chatting with us and reply to our questions imbrandon
[07:03] <nixternal> questions have stopped it seems, how about a nice exit quote to make people feel all tingly inside?
[07:03] <imbrandon> sid: stay tuned to my blog as to why IMHO we should not have GNU/ listed in the name, i'll post my personal opinon today sometime
[07:03] <imbrandon> yup we are out of time it seems
[07:03] <Bourlotieris> Thank you
[07:03] <imbrandon> everyone feel free to email me imbrandon@kubuntu.org with any other questions and i'll try to blog about them or get back to you
[07:04] <imbrandon> everyone have a great day and rember "Kubuntu for president!!' :)
[07:04] <kalon33> imbrandon:  yes I think, but on the doc team mailing list matthew east asked someone to replace you, and I haven't seen a positive reply.
[07:04] <kalon33> *to replace him
[07:05] <imbrandon> kalon33: yea i'm not sure about that situation but i think matt is moving on to other things
[07:05] <imbrandon> not sure 100%
[07:05] <LaserJock> I'm here to do the Doc Team presentation
[07:05] <imbrandon> ok LaserJock , its all yours
[07:06] <lumpki> thanks imbrandon and the kubuntu team
[07:06] <LaserJock> ok, can I get a Question tracker volunteer? :-)
[07:06] <sid> Will there be an option in Feisty to only install free software? So as I'm going through the installer I can go somewhere(advanced options?) and check "Only free software", so it doesn't use binary blobs or anything non-free.
[07:06] <kalon33> if you want so ^^
[07:06] <nixternal> LaserJock: i can do it if you would like
[07:06] <LaserJock> nixternal: that would be cool, thanks. Also pipe in when you want. We might need to tag-team this one
[07:07] <ma1kel> whats matthew east's nickname?
[07:07] <LaserJock> mdke
[07:07] <LaserJock> Matthew East is not able to make the doc team session so I'm filling in
[07:07] <ma1kel> ah thanks
[07:07] <sid> imbrandon: You post to planet.ubuntu*?
[07:07] <nixternal> \o/ YAY LaserJock
[07:07] <LaserJock> Welcome everybody!
[07:07] <nixternal> sid: yes he does
[07:07] <sid> k
[07:07] <kalon33> nice that you replace him LaserJock
[07:08] <LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha
[07:08] <LaserJock> and I'm a member of the doc team
[07:08] <zilo_> Hello LaserJock
[07:08] <LaserJock> so lets get started with what exactly the doc team is
[07:09] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu Documentation Team is composed of people from Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu
[07:09] <LaserJock> who all share a goal of creating the best documentation for Ubuntu (as a whole) that we can
[07:10] <LaserJock> it is *entirely* community run (there is nobody paid to work on the Doc Team)
[07:11] <LaserJock> The core team is https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc but many others contribute to documentation all the time. To find out how to communicate with us, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
[07:11] <LaserJock> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces. The ultimate reference page for any information is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[07:11] <LaserJock> 1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called Docbook XML, and is hosted in our repository.
[07:12] <LaserJock> 2. Online documentation - composed of an html version of (1), and a community driven wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
[07:12] <nixternal> NOTE: System Documentation is also installed on your system (read Help)
[07:13] <LaserJock> yes, the System Documentation is what we ship on the CD
[07:13] <LaserJock> and is found in the help systems
[07:13] <LaserJock> right now it's composed of a series of guides
[07:13] <LaserJock> we have the Desktop Guide
[07:14] <LaserJock> Server Guide
[07:14] <LaserJock> Packaging Guide
[07:14] <LaserJock> and then you also have things like "About Ubuntu" and Release Notes
[07:15] <LaserJock> OK, so how does one contribute to the system documentation?
[07:15] <LaserJock> Diving in and trying things out is the best way to begin getting involved.
[07:15] <LaserJock> Download our repository, and start getting familiar with the markup language by reading and editing some existing documents. We have a validation tool included which will tell you where there is an error in the document markup. If you are confused, you can ask in #ubuntu-doc or on the mailing list, and you will generally get some help, but you should be patient!
[07:16] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects shows a list of projects
[07:16] <nixternal> let me know when you are ready to field a question
[07:17] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository will show you how to get the Subversion repository
[07:17] <LaserJock> and get you started with editing
[07:17] <LaserJock> nixternal: sure I'll take it
[07:17] <nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: how does the doc team work with internationalization teams?
[07:18] <LaserJock> well, I'll talk more about that later, but the basics are we create templates for the docs that are put on Rosetta for the translation teams to work on
[07:18] <LaserJock> and then we gather the translations and put then in the documentation packages
[07:18] <LaserJock> we have been very careful to "freeze" our docs early enough that translators have a decent amount of time to translate
[07:19] <LaserJock> ok, so some easy areas to contribute with system documentation:
[07:20] <LaserJock> Proof reading is a good way to get involved. Also, we have a number of bugs open about typos, errors, omissions, which you can try and fix. See https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs and https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bugs (in the latter link substitute ubuntu-docs with xubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs if interested in that variant!)
[07:20] <LaserJock> Some of the key tasks for the system documentation are:
[07:21] <LaserJock> 1. Improving the navigability and readability of the help (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp).
[07:21] <LaserJock> 2. Incorporating material from the Official Ubuntu Book into appropriate sections in the system documentation, amending the style accordingly.
[07:21] <LaserJock> 3. Addressing areas which are missing from the documentation, in particular by reviewing material on the wiki/forum/mailing lists and converting it to docbook for inclusion in the system documentation (there is a good tool for doing this conversion).
[07:21] <LaserJock> 4. Updating existing information which is no longer valid due to inclusion of new features in Feisty.
[07:22] <LaserJock> OK, I'd like to open it up for questions about system documentation
 QUESTION: can you explain the Topic Based Help
[07:22] <LaserJock> heh, loaded questions, I love it!
[07:23] <LaserJock> traditionally we have shipped discrete "guides"
[07:23] <LaserJock> where each guide has a specific target audience and set of topics
[07:23] <LaserJock> more like a book, essentially
[07:23] <LaserJock> but it makes it hard for users to get what they want
[07:24] <LaserJock> they aren't interested in reading a book as much as they are interested in learning about a specific topic
[07:24] <LaserJock> so we are working on rearranging the contents of our guide to reflect that
[07:24] <LaserJock> in fact it should look a quite a bit like the help wiki main page
[07:25] <LaserJock> http://help.ubuntu.com/community/
[07:25] <sid> Would the non-free software in Ubuntu fall under system documentation? or no?
[07:25] <sid> like binary blob/binary codec wrapper stuff
[07:25] <LaserJock> depends on what you mean
[07:25] <sid> Are there any templates for explaining to users the pitfalls of non-free software?(ie binary blobs/binary codec wrappers etc) Explaining to them how their data is locked into a format that helps the developers of the format make more money? Or what direction will the non-free software aspect of Ubuntu go?
[07:25] <LaserJock> we do document non-free codecs, etc.
[07:26] <sid> Well I'm talking about the education stuff for feisty
[07:26] <sid> Is there a design for that yet? Or is it too early?
[07:26] <LaserJock> we don't quite have as much on education
[07:26] <LaserJock> but I'm sure that will come along
[07:26] <nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: any plans of introducing more context sensitive help on the system?
[07:26] <nixternal> i think that leads back to Topic Based Help if I'm not mistaken
[07:26] <LaserJock> perhaps
[07:27] <LaserJock> LKRaider: the answer to that is basically, we'd like to but we are also bound by the help systems provided by upstreams
[07:28] <LaserJock> so right now we'd like to do more, but Gnome and KDE haven't developed their topic based help systems yet
[07:28] <LaserJock> LKRaider: does that somewhat answer your question?
[07:28] <LKRaider> It does. I would like to see a help tightly integrated into the system tho :)
[07:28] <LaserJock> yes, we would too
[07:29] <LaserJock> right now there are technical reasons why that isn't so easy
[07:29] <LaserJock> one is licensing
[07:29] <LaserJock> one is a system to actual integrate, the Gnome and KDE help systems aren't so great for that
[07:29] <sid> LaserJock: Do you have an opinion on the direction the non-free documentation should go? Will the text be worded so the users want to not use non-free software at all? Meaning they won't want to save their home movies in .wmv, or more strong would be they don't accept .doc files in their email and only accept odf? In your opinion how strong should the documentation be in favor of open standards and free/libre software? Or should it just make them 
[07:30] <LaserJock> heh
[07:30] <sid> If that cut off let me know, my last word was "exists?"
[07:30] <LaserJock> ok, well some of that will certainly depend on what the Ubuntu Technical Board does with some of the issues we face in Feisty
[07:31] <sid> Not sure the char limit per message on freenode.
[07:31] <LaserJock> sid: my cut off at "just make them"
[07:31] <LaserJock> but to be honest, our job is to document the Ubuntu project and not so much to make policy decisions
[07:31] <LaserJock> we do have to decide how we handle certain things
[07:32] <sid> Or should itjust make them aware of the non-free software, just so they know it exists?
[07:32] <LaserJock> for instance we have chosen to try to use GUI tool wherever possible in our documentation
[07:33] <LaserJock> I'm almost certain we will at least show the user the choices
[07:33] <LaserJock> and explain why certain things are non-free
[07:33] <nixternal> excellent
[07:33] <LaserJock> we already do that a fair amount with the restricted codecs
[07:33] <LaserJock> so I don't see that changing
[07:33] <LaserJock> but to be honest that's really not a big deal
[07:34] <LaserJock> the vast majority of our work has nothing to do with free vs non-free
[07:34] <LaserJock> LKRaider: can you ask you question here real quick
[07:35] <LKRaider> About the Ubuntu book, was it done by the doc team? Are there plans for releasing other books? (like a server book)
[07:35] <LaserJock> The Ubuntu Book was not done by the doc team
[07:35] <nixternal> NOTE: a majority of our System Documentation documents the standard or default applications that are installed on the CD. Our wiki on the other hand is community created
[07:35] <LaserJock> a few of hte members of the doc team were among the authors
[07:35] <LaserJock> but the publisher sought them out
[07:36] <nixternal> [    Rondom]  QUESTION: The wiki is rather unstructured. I don't know where to start. Are there any plans on a clean structure (categories like hardware->soundcards->xyz-soundcard-article)?
[07:36] <LaserJock> but the Official Ubuntu Book was released under a license that will allow us to integrate it into the doc team material
[07:36] <LaserJock> which is very rare
[07:37] <LaserJock> Ok, well rather then answering your question directly, let me now talk about the wiki docs
[07:37] <LaserJock> :-)
[07:37] <LaserJock> I might answer your question a little bit there
[07:37] <LaserJock> and we'll return to it if you want more
[07:38] <LaserJock> OK, so the wiki help is housed at help.ubuntu.com/community
[07:38] <LaserJock> this again is a community run effort
[07:38] <LaserJock> this wiki is open to everybody
[07:38] <LaserJock> so it is a very easy way to start getting involved with documentation
[07:39] <LaserJock> Simply log into the wiki (using your launchpad account), and correct errors you find in documents. Read existing documents to become familiar with the wiki markup, which is very simple.
[07:39] <LaserJock> Above anything else, read the wiki guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.
[07:39] <LaserJock> One way of becoming familiar with the material and how we work is to begin reading it and checking it for accuracy.
[07:40] <LaserJock> A number of more substantial "wiki-tasks" (as well as a list of pages that need serious attention) are listed on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo.
[07:40] <LaserJock> Some of the key tasks are:
[07:40] <LaserJock> 1. Improve the self-maintainability of the wiki by introducing easy tools for quality assurance (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance). This spec needs ideas, discussion and eventually some code!
[07:40] <LaserJock> 2. Doing quality assurance to ensure users are given reliable information and can quickly identify how reliable a page is.
[07:41] <LaserJock> 3. Improving existing material and adding new material to the wiki, in particular drawing on the immense resources offered by the forums (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum)
[07:41] <LaserJock> 4. Clarify the license of material on the wiki by convincing the Community Council to approve the year-old specification (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing).
[07:41] <LaserJock> A long-term goal is to bring the system documentation and the online documentation closer and closer together, so that eventually it is easy for the system documentation to draw on contributions via the wiki, and (the other side of the coin)
[07:41] <LaserJock> users to browse and search all of the available documentation via a single interface, be it via the online website or the system help viewer. This goal is rather a large one, and is essentially waiting on the right tools to come together.
[07:42] <LaserJock> I'll let you read for a while
[07:42] <LaserJock> and then feel free to ask any wiki questions
[07:43] <Rondom> LaserJock: I read, maybe not enough, I'm actually looking for some wiki-team-mailing list for discussing things or some results of discussions that were already made
[07:44] <LaserJock> ok, well the wiki team uses the doc team mailing list
[07:44] <LaserJock> ubuntu-doc on lists.ubuntu.com
[07:44] <Rondom> thx
[07:44] <LaserJock> so feel free to introduce yourself and ask questions
[07:44] <LaserJock> #ubuntu-doc is also a great place for quick questions
[07:45] <LaserJock> if you are editing a wiki page and you're a little nervous about it you can always email the doc team and ask for a review
[07:46] <nixternal> [  LKRaider]  QUESTION: about porting stuff from the forums, do you have a team that does that, or just rely on users bringing the doc-work available there?
[07:46] <LaserJock> there is a team
[07:46] <LaserJock> composed of forum and doc team people
[07:47] <nixternal> wiki forum team
[07:47] <LaserJock> right now it's not very active
[07:47] <LaserJock> as we are having licensing issues
[07:47] <nixternal> rather inactive at this point, possibly a good time to get active with that
[07:47] <LaserJock> one of the more complicated issues in documentation is licensing
[07:48] <LaserJock> we are working towards have those worked out
[07:48] <sid> Can't you just setup the forum so they agree to submit their docs under the GFDL?
[07:48] <sid> And the wiki and whatever else.
[07:49] <LaserJock> well, they are licensed under CC-SA
[07:49] <LaserJock> I believe
[07:49] <LaserJock> and the wiki doesn't currently have a license
[07:49] <LaserJock> but it is proposed to be more of a Public Domain style
[07:50] <sid> So can't you setup the wiki and forum and whatever else, so they can't submit unless they agree to put their works in the public domain?
[07:50] <LaserJock> well
[07:50] <LaserJock> the issue is you have potentially thousands of authors
[07:50] <sid> Although I prefer CC-SA or GFDL as opposed to the public domain.
[07:50] <leone8> Hello everybodyyyyy!!!!! :-)
[07:50] <sid> Something about microsoft turning my documentation into non-freeness and then selling it makes me want to vomit.
[07:51] <LaserJock> so right now what you can do is if you find a howto on the forums you want to put on the wiki
[07:51] <LaserJock> you need to ask the author for permission to put it on the wiki
[07:51] <leone8> I've seen that topic will be "Ubuntu ports"...What about?
[07:52] <LaserJock> if we had compatible licenses we could do some "mass" moving of documentation
[07:52] <LaserJock> leone8: check the Open Week page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[07:52] <sid> Wikipedia does it the best imho, almost all of their work is under GFDL
[07:53] <LaserJock> nixternal: you still here?
[07:53] <nixternal> us[  LKRaider]  QUESTION: continuing on lumpki's question, the brazilian-doc-team have made their wiki pages signed by "maintainers", where users can turn to ask questions on the topic of the page to request help. What do you think of this idea?
[07:53] <leone8> LaserJock thanks!! Now it's alright! :-)
[07:53] <sid> The idea should be to promot more documentation(GFDL), just like promoting more free software(GPL). imho.
[07:53] <nixternal> was waiting to post that
[07:53] <LaserJock> did we get to lumpki's question
[07:53] <nixternal> its up there somewhere
[07:54] <nixternal> heh, guess i didn't
[07:54] <LaserJock> sid: well, GFDL is often considered non-free so sometimes that's an issue
[07:54] <nixternal> [    lumpki]  QUESTION: How can users identify how reliable a wiki page is?
[07:54] <LaserJock> lumpki: well, right now it's pretty tough
[07:54] <LaserJock> but that is an area we are keen on improving
[07:55] <LaserJock> we'd sure welcome and suggestions or help
[07:55] <nixternal> lumpki: it is tough, but if at all possible, people on the wiki team go through and test it. and then usually clean it up and post it for good..it would be nice to have a comments section on the bottom of each help page for people to say yes it worked or no im dead
[07:55] <lumpki> or maybe a voting system
[07:56] <nixternal> ya
[07:56] <LaserJock> lumpki: more info check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
[07:56] <nixternal> hehe
[07:56] <cgillogly> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[07:56] <LaserJock> something like a "Did this page work for you?" kind of thing
[07:57] <LaserJock> LKRaider: I don't think it would work to well on our scale
[07:57] <LaserJock> ok, let me just wrap up here with a couple translation items
[07:57] <LaserJock> If you are a translator, and are interested in helping out translating the Ubuntu documentation into your language, all you need to know is how to use the Rosetta translation system
[07:58] <LaserJock> http://launchpad.net/rosetta
[07:58] <LaserJock> You can find out how to use that on the Rosetta wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta.
[07:58] <LaserJock> Once you have learnt all of this, the docteam documents can be found in several places:
[07:58] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs
[07:59] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kubuntu-docs
[07:59] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xubuntu-docs
[07:59] <LaserJock> OK, that's it for me
[07:59] <LaserJock> and we're out of time
[07:59] <LKRaider> there is still 1 minute! :P
[07:59] <nixternal> thanks LaserJock, rockin' job!
[08:00] <LaserJock> so I'd just encourage everybody to take a look at the Documentation Team
[08:00] <ma1kel> my goverment rocks to be honest
[08:00] <nixternal> 4, 3, 2, 1.....
[08:00] <LKRaider> great presentation LaserJock
[08:00] <bhtb1> tx!
[08:00] <LaserJock> head over to #ubuntu-docs if you have more questions
[08:00] <LaserJock> nixternal and I will be over there for a while
[08:00] <LaserJock> ;-)
[08:01] <nixternal> #ubuntu-doc
[08:01] <LaserJock> Thanks Everybody!!
[08:01] <nixternal> heh
[08:01] <sid> thanks LaserJock
[08:01] <LaserJock> darn
[08:01] <nixternal> everyone just created a new channel
[08:01] <LKRaider> heh
[08:02] <nixternal> imbrandon: your turn again?
[08:02] <LaserJock> oh, actually there isn't another session scheduled now
[08:02] <sid> So nothing is scheduled now?
[08:02] <nixternal> ahh, he removed it
[08:02] <LKRaider> packaging?
[08:03] <nixternal> sid: lunch is scheduled ;)
[08:03] <LKRaider> packaging 101 was removed?
[08:03] <LaserJock> so if anybody has any Ubuntu questions about anything we can chat a little
[08:03] <ma1kel> when are you guys planning world domination?
[08:03] <bhtb1> so is that 4 2nite?
[08:04] <ma1kel> no
[08:04] <ma1kel> theres another session
[08:04] <ma1kel> in an hour
[08:04] <sid> nixternal: The hurd is a good design, just extremely difficult to debug.
[08:04] <bhtb1> tx
[08:04] <LaserJock> ma1kel: I thought we were already planning world domination :-)
[08:04] <stgraber> nixternal: Have you ever seen RMS announcing the end of a GNU project ?
[08:04] <LKRaider> I know nothing about the Hurd
[08:05] <sid> I think GNU/Solaris is going to pop up soon, it looks like Sun guys want to steal some thunder from "Linux"
[08:05] <LaserJock> doesn't it already exist
[08:05] <sid> On the Sun press release for java they had rms and Eben Moglen as guest speakers, and they refered to it as "GNU/Linux"(yes teh Sun CEO said GNU/Linux)
[08:05] <LaserJock> bah
[08:05] <sid> And on the website they said free/libre too, and not just open source. interesting imho
[08:05] <ma1kel> I don't think the world needs another OS to code for
[08:06] <LKRaider> Solaris is not GPL compatible, is it?
[08:06] <tictacaddict> "Nexenta OS"
[08:06] <sid> I think what they're going to do...is adopt GPLv3 for Solaris, and then talk about how everyone will be safe from patents because of v3, and Linux won't be apparently.
[08:07] <ma1kel> well sid, cant you just make your own kernel project from the linux kernel?
[08:07] <sid> http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/date/20061130
[08:07] <ma1kel> so you make your own version of the kernel with gpl3
[08:07] <sid> ma1kel: yes, but under GPLv2
[08:07] <ma1kel> hmmm
[08:08] <nixternal> stgraber: RMS recently said on a podcast that the Hurd project didn't have a great future ahead
[08:08] <sid> ma1kel: Sun controls almost all the copyrights for Solaris, so they can license under GPlv3 and make people feel warm and cozy about being _safer_ from patents.
[08:08] <ma1kel> true
[08:09] <sid> Linux(Linus) doesn't want to use GPLv3, and it would be very difficult if he did. It's really easy for Sun.
[08:09] <sid> I think Sun is going to make a move on the free software community and try to seduce them.
[08:10] <ma1kel> haha, reminds me of ELER strip
[08:10] <ma1kel> *the
[08:10] <sid> They're already started, the CEO says GNU/Linux...heh Who is he targetting with those words?
[08:11] <sid> anyway, nothing but goodness here imho. competition is good and the bottom line is we're all sharing each others work and collaborating anyway. I think it's great.
[08:11] <LKRaider> yep
[08:12] <LKRaider> did any opensuse developers come to ubuntu openweek? ;D
[08:12] <LaserJock> sid: regarding documentation of non-free stuff, I'm really not exactly sure what we'd document
[08:12] <LaserJock> LKRaider: yeah, some
[08:12] <LKRaider> cool :)
[08:12] <LaserJock> but that really wasn't the goal of the Open Week
[08:12] <LaserJock> I'm glad to see so many people show up
[08:13] <LKRaider> there are non-free things in the commercial repo.
[08:13] <ma1kel> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/sandals-not-flip-flops
[08:13] <ma1kel> haha
[08:13] <LaserJock> LKRaider: the Canonical repo?
[08:13] <LKRaider> yes
[08:13] <LaserJock> LKRaider: then that's Canonical's to document ;-)
[08:13] <sid> LaserJock: Well does your doc team do the "education" part from feisty goals...or is that someone else?
[08:13] <LKRaider> LaserJock: ;)
[08:13] <LaserJock> ah
[08:14] <LaserJock> sid: we'll probably be doing a little bit (we do already)
[08:14] <sid> sorry, my question wasn't clear
[08:14] <jbailey> nixternal: If you want to ask about Hurd dev, wait for 45 minutes. =)
[08:14] <LaserJock> LKRaider: we will certainly document the fact that the repo exists and what's in there
[08:15] <LaserJock> LKRaider: but the documentation team leaves actually documenting an app to the app's authors mainly
[08:15] <LKRaider> okay
[08:15] <LaserJock> sid: the wiki is pretty open, people can do a fair amount there
[08:15] <LaserJock> but we should really avoid being too controversial
[08:16] <sid> LaserJock: eh, not a lot of people visit the wiki comparitively to the eyeballs that will see the education pop-up window for non-free software.
[08:16] <LaserJock> ah, for specifically a pop-up the devs will write that
[08:16] <sid> I'm concerned about the education pop-up that all *ubuntu users will see if/when they use non-free software.
[08:17] <sid> There are lots of ways to word this thing.
[08:17] <LaserJock> sure
[08:17] <LKRaider> http://www.getgnulinux.org/
[08:17] <sid> You could say "It's just a binary blob, it lets you play more movies"
[08:17] <LaserJock> and I'm confident that the Technical Board and devs will word it well
[08:17] <sid> or you could say "It's a proprietary blob, that lets the developers of it control people who put their data in these formats, and it helps them make more money."
[08:18] <sid> Those are significantly different, and I see them both used on forums and other places.
[08:20] <samgee> The first one is pretty useless, they should really emphasise freedom
[08:20] <sid> I agree. freedom is key here.
[08:21] <samgee> But that's pretty hard to say in a short message
[08:22] <LaserJock> yep
[08:22] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure how much they'll do
[08:22] <LKRaider> "By installing this you are helping a big corporation monopoly. Do you want to proceed?"
[08:22] <Rondom> lol
[08:23] <samgee> mmh, we shouldn't be playing the anti-MS card either
[08:23] <LaserJock> the vast majority of people won't care, I guess
[08:23] <sid> Is there going to be a popup everytime a restricted format plays?
[08:23] <LaserJock> no
[08:23] <sid> And they have an option to "don't show this warning again" checkbox
[08:24] <LaserJock> only the first time when you need to install the codec
[08:24] <LaserJock> it's about installing, not using
[08:24] <sid> eh, no one is going to remember
[08:24] <LaserJock> right
[08:25] <sid> Really all the formats are "restricted", except ogg(vorbis+theora), heh
[08:25] <samgee> and Dirac
[08:25] <sid> And even ogg(theora+vorbis) is probably restricted in certain instances
[08:25] <samgee> and Flac :)
[08:25] <LKRaider> "This software is untested and might pose security risks. Proceed?"
[08:26] <LaserJock> but the education spec is about binary drivers, not codecs
[08:26] <sid> o, it's only going to cover nvidia/fglrx?
[08:26] <ma1kel> proceed, im so hardcore
[08:26] <LKRaider> heh
[08:27] <LKRaider> "This software kills kittens. Proceed?"
[08:27] <ma1kel> ALWAYS
[08:27] <samgee> lol
[08:27] <sid> Too bad Realplayer or Quicktime didn't support Ogg(theora+vorbis) by default.
[08:27] <ma1kel> VLC?
[08:27] <sid> yea, that probably supports it.(on windows)
[08:28] <sid> But Quicktime/Real Player have such a bigger market share, VLC isn't even worth mentioning at all when it comes to market share.
[08:28] <LaserJock> sid: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverEducation
[08:28] <sid> The documentation Microsoft gave to the EU on thanksgiving covers wmv format iirc, I wonder if that will ever trickle down to the free software community.
[08:28] <sid> You have to pay for the documentation. iirc
[08:28] <ma1kel> What's 100 laywers on a sinking ship?
[08:29] <sid> The EU and Microsoft will agree on a reasonable payment for the documentation for wmv/server protocols/other crap that they are being forced to document
[08:29] <sid> ma1kel: what?
[08:29] <LaserJock> sid: and for codec installation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasyCodecInstallation
[08:29] <ma1kel> a good begin
[08:30] <sid> heh
[08:31] <LaserJock> ok, I'm outta here
[08:31] <LaserJock> thanks for hanging around everybody
[08:31] <LKRaider> bye LaserJock !
[08:33] <sid> s/Mac/PowerPC/
[08:36] <LKRaider> sid: what EU & MS docs?
[08:37] <sid> LKRaider: check europa.eu
[08:37] <sid> LKRaider: Microsoft has been fined almost a billion dollars so far..that case.
[08:38] <sid> LKRaider: The EU isn't like USA, USA would fine microsoft then forget about it.(they wouldn't make them give the docs) EU on the other hand, fines them...still forces them to give docs..then fines them twice as much if they don't do it fast enough.
[08:38] <LKRaider> heh
[08:39] <LKRaider> Brasil would not fine anyone. They just accept the pocket-money they get :P
[08:39] <sid> LKRaider: So EU asked Microsoft nicely for a few months, Microsoft refused, then EU said they would fine 1 million euro a day, Microsoft dragged their feet and were kicking and screaming...then EU dropped the fine(hundreds of million of euro), then EU said give docs or we'll fine you 2 million euro a day(they still dragged their feet)..
[08:40] <sid> So EU fined Microsoft again(hundreds of millions of Euro), now EU is saying they'll fine 3 million Euro a day..and they still want the docs.(EU is in the process of reviewing the docs it will take about 2 more weeks then they will have a decision if the third fine it coming or not)
[08:41] <sid> They only want the most basic things, like server protocols, so other ISV's can make software that competes with Microsoft products.
[08:48] <LKRaider> http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/06/445&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
[08:48] <LKRaider> found it
[08:53] <bhtb> is ports next?
[08:54] <LKRaider> "Article 24 of Regulation 1/2003 entitles the Commission to impose such penalty payments not exceeding 5% of average daily turnover in the preceding business year per day."
[08:54] <LKRaider> wow
[08:54] <LKRaider> that's not even 5% of their daily turnover
[08:56] <poningru> damn
[08:59] <LKRaider> http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH/06/452&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
[09:00] <jbailey> Good morning all!
[09:00] <jbailey> Or at least, it could be morning somewhere.
[09:00] <bhtb> evening
[09:00] <jbailey> I went to a motivational speaker who said I should always behave as if I'm exactly where I want to be in life.
[09:00] <gouchi> evening :)
[09:01] <jbailey> And given that we're at that annoying temperature where it's cold, but no so cold I should wear warmer clothing, currently I Want to be in Hawai'i.
[09:01] <linuxboy_> hey !
[09:01] <jbailey> Hmm, need to be op to  twiddle the topic.
[09:02] <jbailey> nalioth: *poke*
[09:02] <swaby1> What is the current topic?
[09:02] <LKRaider> evening! it is hot here :)
[09:02] <bhtb> ports
[09:02] <nixternal> what is the topic ;)
[09:02] <jbailey>  /topic #ubuntu-classroom is Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week, Nov 27 - Dec 2 between 3-10pm UTC, to see this in your timezone, visit http://tinyurl.com/ykqc67 | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Logs http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Questions+discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat | Current session: Ubuntu ports
[09:02] <jbailey> please. =)
[09:03] <swaby1> Oh I may be out of my league
[09:03] <jbailey> swaby1: Nah.
[09:03] <jbailey> swaby1: Stay.  the more hecklers I have, the more fun it will be. =)
[09:04] <jbailey> nixternal: Thanks!
[09:04] <nixternal> jeesh
[09:04] <nixternal> np
[09:04] <nixternal> back to work ;)
[09:04] <jbailey> = Introduction =
[09:04] <jbailey> Hello, and welcome!  My name is Jeff Bailey, and I'll be the source of the electrons flying across your screen for the next hour!  This is, I believe, the final session of the Ubuntu Open Week series.
[09:04] <jbailey> There are a few things I ask:
[09:04] <jbailey>  * Please ask all questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  Because I'll be pasting, typing, and looking at both channels, there's a very real possibility that I simply won't see things posted here.
[09:04] <jbailey>  * In the other channel, I have a nick highlight set on QUESTION.  Please use that to make sure my attention is drawn to questions.
[09:04] <jbailey> Example:
[09:04] <jbailey> QUESTION: Oy, Jeff!  When do we get the Hurd port in Ubuntu?
[09:04] <jbailey>  * I don't have a third thing.  But my public speaking coaches always tell me to do things in threes.
[09:05] <jbailey> A bit about myself.
[09:05] <jbailey> I got involved in the Debian world in 1999 because of the Hurd.  I'd been using and hacking on the Hurd for sometime before that
[09:05] <jbailey> and Marcus Brinkmann wanted someone to run the buildd so that he could focus on kernel work.  I ran the buildd for a while and
[09:05] <jbailey> sometime after that actually made it through the Debain New Maintainer process.  I still do the nightly Debian Installer snapshots
[09:05] <jbailey> on ia64, but in the past have done them on sparc and hppa.  I participated in porting d-i for arm and alpha as well.
[09:05] <jbailey> Upstream, I did some work in the 90's on helping with the port of GCC to SCO OpenServer and on porting glibc to Solaris 2.6.  I've
[09:05] <jbailey> done other non-porting things, too, but that's not important right now.
[09:06] <jbailey> In Ubuntu land, I do porting work for hppa, ia64, sparc and powerpc.  I am an Ubuntu core-dev, and worked on the Distro Team for Canonical
[09:06] <jbailey> for about a year.  I still partcipate in toolchain work.
[09:06] <jbailey> ObDisclosure:  I am employed by Canonical and manage the operations side of the technical support organisation as well as the standard
[09:06] <jbailey> do-everything that comes with being in a relatively small company.
[09:07] <jbailey> For those of you who are interesting in the Hurd, btw,
[09:07] <jbailey> I gave a talk on that in 2003.
[09:07] <jbailey> Not much has changed:
[09:07] <jbailey> http://www.linuks.mine.nu/irc/hurd/ =)
[09:07] <jbailey> http://ukai.org/d/index.cgi?2003-06-30-hurd-talk
[09:07] <jbailey> = Definitions =
[09:07] <jbailey>  * A 'ports' architecture:  This is an processor/OS combination that is not supported directly by Canonical.  It has a few characteristics:
[09:07] <jbailey>    * It is not mirrored.
[09:07] <jbailey>    * If it's broken at release time, it will not block the release.
[09:08] <jbailey>    * If it develops a critical security hole, it's up to the community to come up with a fix and get it in.
[09:08] <jbailey> (See?  Three can sometimes be a good number)
[09:08] <jbailey> I see lots of people joining, I'd like to refer you to the log files in the topic if you're curious.
[09:08] <jbailey>  * Soyuz: The part of Launchpad that actually builds and houses the distribution.
[09:08] <jbailey>  * Kumquat: small oval citrus fruit with thin sweet rind and very acid pulp
[09:09] <jbailey> (Some of this next section is pre-history for me, so sorry if I have it slightly wrong)
[09:09] <jbailey> = hppa, ia64 =
[09:09] <jbailey> The two initial ports that came about were hppa and ia64.  These were largely pet projects by LaMont, who wanted his
[09:09] <jbailey> favourite architectures on the release schedule and with the community of Ubuntu.
[09:09] <jbailey> The ia64 architecture is not that interesting as a port, in that it's well supported by a large corporation and a target for a number
[09:09] <jbailey> of major distributions.  We mostly inherit working things from upstream for this now.
[09:09] <jbailey> Note that this isn't to say that it's not interesting as an architecture.
[09:09] <jbailey> But just that in general we can expect it to work.
[09:10] <jbailey> University students everywhere look at the Itanic and study it.
[09:10] <jbailey> And make presentations at the GCC summit and OLS.
[09:10] <jbailey> For those interested in Itanium specifically, I recommend googling for "gelato"
[09:10] <jbailey> hppa on the other hand is an interesting challenge.  While hardware is currently still available, it won't be soon.  It was
[09:10] <jbailey> also a bit of a technological anomaly in terms of stack handling, atomic operations and such.  hppa wasn't able to participate
[09:10] <jbailey> in the edgy release, and is now struggling to re-enter the archive with Feisty.
[09:11] <jbailey> hppa is a bit of a pet project of mine, specifically because it *doesn't* have great upstream support.
[09:11] <jbailey> Although it's used in production web servers and such in a number of places.
[09:11] <jbailey> There's also some people involved with each port that are notable:
[09:11] <jbailey> == LaMont Jones, the ber-porter ==
[09:11] <jbailey> If you've been involved with Debian at all, you've probably encountered LaMont.  He's only a little bit scary,
[09:11] <jbailey> in the way that I recently handed him a set of PARISC code in hex, and he was able to tell me what the stuff meant.
[09:12] <jbailey> = amd64 =
[09:12] <jbailey> amd64 was the next port that came along.  amd64 was introduced with Hoary, primarily by Tollef Fog Heen.  amd64 was unusual in
[09:12] <jbailey> that from the beginning it was sponsored by Canonical with the intention of being fully supported.
[09:12] <jbailey> Since it is fully supported now, the support for it has grown much beyond just Tollef now.
[09:13] <jbailey> == Tollef Fog Heen ==
[09:13] <jbailey> Tollef is a member of Canonical's distro team.
[09:13] <jbailey> (I had something witty in here, but he knows where I live)
[09:13] <jbailey> = sparc... promoted! =
[09:14] <jbailey> The sparc port was the brainchild of fabbione.  He created this in his spare time on his equipment at home, building just main.
[09:14] <jbailey> One of the challenges of building a new architecture is the churn that we face during the development cycle.
[09:14] <jbailey> I think there are generally 3 build boxes per architecture.
[09:14] <jbailey> And all of those tend to be really fast boxes.
[09:14] <jbailey> Sparc attracted some attention by others because it was one of the first to drop pre-ultrasparc support.  This meant that a number
[09:15] <jbailey> of legacy items were dropped.  It also was one of the first ones to incorporate David Miller's work on the Niagara chipset.
[09:15] <jbailey> For Dapper, Sparc was promoted to being a primary architecture, is mirrored and has full commercial support by Canonical now.
[09:15] <jbailey> So again, although Fabio did the initial port work for this, support for it has spread out a bit beyond him.
[09:15] <jbailey> Not much, as commodity Sparc hardware can be a bit harder to get.
[09:15] <jbailey> Some universities have extras, though, that they don't mind students playing with.
[09:16] <jbailey> == Fabio Massimo di Nitto ==
[09:16] <jbailey> Fabionne is our Italian Stalion.
[09:16] <jbailey> = Community =
[09:16] <jbailey> So, umm.  What's the point, you ask?
[09:16] <jbailey> Anyone?
[09:16] <ma1kel> ?
[09:16] <jbailey> Excellent!
[09:16] <sid> ?
 QUESTION: so what's the point?\
[09:17] <jbailey> (sometimes you have to be your own plant)
[09:17] <jbailey> The point is that Ubuntu is a community distribution, of which Canonical happens to be the primary sponsor.  Under the guidance of the
[09:17] <jbailey> Technical Board, the Community Council, and of course the SABDFL,  community members are free to promote their own ideas within Ubuntu
[09:17] <jbailey> and have grown and changed Ubuntu in great ways.  The laptop testing program was largely community driven, usplash, and the xen kernels.
[09:17] <jbailey> The documentation team, artwork, translations are all community driven.
[09:17] <jbailey> The ports architectures are where community folks can get involved with their favourited hobby systems.  Most of the world is running
[09:17] <jbailey> Ubuntu on ia32-based systems.  But let's say you wanted to put Ubuntu on your Linksys or Palm Pilot rather than openwrt?  A port is one
[09:17] <jbailey> of the places you could start.
[09:18] <jbailey> Even in general, if we look back at what Linus promoted Linux as in the first place.
[09:18] <jbailey> I don't have the quote handy, but wasn't it something like when men were men,
[09:18] <jbailey> sheep were men,
[09:18] <jbailey> and device drivers were running scared?
[09:19] <jbailey> Yes, please do ask questions as we go.
[09:19] <jbailey> About half of the talk so far is scripted, and have is typed.
[09:19] <jbailey> So it's easy to inerrupt. =)
 QUESTION: How do you get support if want/are starting a port for ubuntu?
[09:19] <jbailey> I guess support is a tough question there.  I will cover how to actually get one started shortly.
[09:20] <jbailey> In fact.
[09:20] <jbailey> How 'bout now:
[09:20] <jbailey> = How to start one =
[09:20] <jbailey> The first thing you'll want is:
[09:20] <jbailey> == People ==
[09:20] <jbailey>  * Kernel
[09:20] <jbailey>  * Toolchain
[09:20] <jbailey>  * X
[09:20] <jbailey>  * Porters
[09:20] <jbailey>  * Community
[09:21] <jbailey> Part of the trick is that when building a port, you need to make sure you have the skills available to you to make it happen.
[09:21] <jbailey> Surprisingly, these are not as hard to come by as it seems.
[09:21] <jbailey> On the kernel side, upstream folks are often willing to back you up, and in many cases may be running Ubuntu on their primary machines.
[09:22] <jbailey> When I say toolchain, I generally mean compiler, debugger, linker, and associated tools.
[09:22] <jbailey> This actually tends to be the area where it's harder to find people.
[09:22] <jbailey> Just that GCC moves so quickly that it can be harder for community folks to keep up.
[09:22] <jbailey> We have a couple things going for us here.
[09:22] <jbailey> (ppc question queued up)
[09:23] <jbailey> One is, of course, the Debian support.
[09:23] <jbailey> The other is that if it actually builds, there's probably someone who cares about it.
[09:23] <jbailey> The trick is getting those people integrated into the Ubuntu community such that if there are specific things that need doing, that they get into Ubuntu's gcc, glibc, etc.
[09:24] <jbailey> X of course depends on whether you need graphics at all.
[09:24] <jbailey> The porters are the folks who will go through and beat on softare until it actually works.
[09:25] <jbailey> If we take an example from hppa for instance.
[09:25] <jbailey> Every other architecture out there by default initialises it's locks to zero.
[09:25] <jbailey> So, let's say you forget to do a pthread_init.
[09:25] <jbailey> But you've made the variable either a class member, or global.
[09:25] <jbailey> So it's initialised to zero by default.
[09:26] <jbailey> On every other architecture, that will essentially be an initialised lock by accident.
[09:26] <jbailey> On hppa, 0 is locked, 1 is unlocked.
[09:26] <jbailey> So you'll deadlock right at startup.
[09:26] <jbailey> That's a simple example, but it's the type of things that porters have to take care of.
[09:26] <jbailey> Not only in the distro, but struggling to get the patches for these things accepted upstream.
[09:27] <jbailey> Many upstreams take some convincing that just because it works for them doesn't mean it's a bug.
[09:27] <jbailey> And ultimately, you want a reaonsably strong community.
[09:27] <jbailey> (I guess that was the upstream contigeant leaving?)
[09:27] <jbailey> =)
[09:27] <jbailey> The community are the people who are going to give you feedback.
[09:28] <jbailey> It's amazing how nice it is to see people using it, filing bugs and knowing that the work you're doing there is useful to someone.
[09:28] <jbailey> The next thing you'll want is equipment and/or emulators.
[09:28] <jbailey> Although right now all of the ports are built on standard hardware.
[09:29] <jbailey> I'd like to see us begin to look at using QEMU for small systems that will never really get into the multi-gigahertz range of speed.
[09:29] <jbailey> Without proof so far, I believe that a nice dual 4ghz machine running qemu ought to be able to out-perform your Nokia 770 for building things. =)
[09:29] <jbailey> Building a distro from scratch isn't hard, but it does require patience.
[09:30] <jbailey> And it's an undocumented process.
[09:30] <jbailey> For this, it's probably useful to enlist a core-dev.
 QUESTION: What kind of systems are you thinking about?
[09:30] <jbailey> arm, m68k, powerpc-embedded, mips come to mind.
[09:31] <jbailey> arm in particular is pretty common in things like palm pilots, nokia handhelds, and telephones.
[09:31] <jbailey> m68k is surprisingly popular in medical devices.
[09:31] <jbailey> We tend to think of it as an old amiga chipset,  but the new coldfire systems look to be pretty nice.
[09:31] <jbailey> mips is the linksys equipment.
[09:31] <jbailey> ppc-embedded is your standard ppc stuff, but the calling conventions are optimised slightly for the embedded applications.
[09:32] <jbailey> I can talk about ABIs and calling conventions outside of this talk if folks are interested.
 QUESTION: Sparc isn't that popular...comparatively to other architectures. How did Sparc get such good support from Canonical/Ubuntu, did Sun pay Canonical? If not, how does Canonical benefit?(where they wouldn't benefit from supporting another architecture)
[09:32] <jbailey> While I don't know the details of the business relationship, I think that Mark Shuttleworth and Jonathan Shwartz(sp?) standing on stage at the Sun One conference makes a pretty good story. =)
[09:33] <amnesia> hah
 QUESTION: Don't you always need the real hardware because of possible bugs in qemu?
[09:34] <jbailey> This is a slightly disputed topic.  From processor rev to processor rev there will be bugs in the system, too.
[09:34] <jbailey> The challenge here is to decide when it's good enough.
[09:34] <jbailey> Almost all of the major chips: ia32, amd64, powerpc, sparc have had third party knock-offs at some point.
[09:35] <jbailey> And even themselves have had a pile of revisions.
[09:35] <jbailey> The act of producing the code in gcc can push the emulator, but that's what a testsuite is for.
[09:36] <jbailey> I generally believe that it works out fine, and doesn't tend to produce code that's so far off of the mark that you can't work around the odd emulation bug.
[09:36] <jbailey> If a qemu port is fairly new or underused, I would probably be inclined to do an initial run of, say, kernel, X, gcc, glibc bootstrapped on real hardware and on the emulator.
[09:37] <jbailey> If the resulting binaries have compatible assembler, then bugs that come up are more likely to cause crashes than to cause corruption.
[09:37] <jbailey> Maybe toss MySQL and Mozilla in there for large C++ applications.
[09:37] <jbailey> But it's the type of things that I think can be verified to the "good enough" level relatively easily.
[09:37] <jbailey> And hey, usually the QEMU porters would love bug reports too. ;)
[09:38] <jbailey> More on the how to start a port:
[09:38] <jbailey> Once you have the thing up and running and working with 5 or 10 of your closest friends, you'll need a place to publish this.
[09:38] <jbailey> This, I think, is the riskest step for a new port.
[09:38] <jbailey> As someone who's had his DSL slashdotted twice,
[09:39] <jbailey> once for running a hurd-based webserver there.
[09:39] <jbailey> once for having  an supposedly non-disclosed Hurd archive there.
[09:39] <jbailey> *sigh*
[09:39] <jbailey> You need a place where you can put it that, if it *does* turn out to be popular won't keep you from putting it up.
[09:39] <jbailey> or from using your line.
[09:40] <jbailey> For those curious: No, slashdot doesn't tell the admins of a site before they get posted.
 QUESTION: Can it be a problem that an emulator is slower than the real thing
[09:40] <jbailey> If you can get Hardware that's a decent speed, you don't need the emulator.
[09:40] <jbailey> But if you're targetting a linksys or a palm pilot, chances are that's the commodity hardware that you're going to have around.
[09:41] <jbailey> Sure, you can buy a desktop machine that's a 1.1 ghz ARM system.
[09:41] <jbailey> But last I checked they were about three times the price of a desktop.
[09:41] <jbailey> I think that ia32 machines are now in the ~4ghz range?
[09:41] <jbailey> I don't know where current amd64 / em32t machines are.
[09:41] <jbailey> But I'd be surprised if they weren't there too.
[09:42] <jbailey> If your emulator is faster than a 1:10 penalty, you've won with comodity hardware.
[09:42] <jbailey> Or even better, you could buy three of them.
[09:42] <jbailey> Or dig up spares at your friend's house.
[09:42] <jbailey> QUESTION: a bit off-topic, is there anyone working on an ubuntu for mobile phones?
[09:42] <jbailey> (ma1kel)
[09:42] <jbailey> I don't know of one off hand, but there's been interest in an Embedded Ubuntu target for some time.
[09:43] <jbailey> Part of the problem is defining "Embedded"
[09:43] <jbailey> Embedded to one person means wearable computing.
[09:43] <jbailey> Ultra-low power, usually an 8 bit processor that gives off no heat and runs on a watch battery.
[09:43] <jbailey> Embedded to another person can mean an appliance or such that sits in 1u rack, or inside a fridge.
[09:44] <jbailey> (Off-topic, I saw a $15000 fridge when I was looking for one that had a full web browser on the inside of it.  Phear)
[09:44] <jbailey> To do a mobile phone, you'd have to decide what you were targetting.
[09:44] <jbailey> Things like the Motoral A780 have a half to them that is Linux, but that doesn't control the GSM side.
[09:45] <jbailey> I suspect Federal regulators in the US and Canada (and whatever they call them in Europe) would think really poorly of people being able to do all the control of the radio antennae in free software.
[09:45] <jbailey> Wehave that problem now with wireless cards already in Linux.
 QUESTION: What is the relationship like between Debian GNU/Linux and Ubuntu Linux-based operating system with regards to PORTs, ie if someone wants Ubuntu on their arm device(ma1kel's cellphone), should they start porting Ubuntu..or just use Debian since their arm branch is already active and kicking?
[09:46] <jbailey> It depends here on what you want.
[09:46] <jbailey> The Sparc port wasn't really bootstrapped so much from the Debian one, although they share many things back and forth.
[09:46] <jbailey> Ultiamtely, you're going to win with the Debian stuff, because those pieces are already incorpoated into glibc, toolchain, kernel and installer.
[09:47] <jbailey> However, with hppa, we dropped linuxthreads before they did.  There's an ABI break there, so Debian hppa and Ubuntu hppa aren't binary compatible.
[09:47] <jbailey> (This will fix itself after Etch releases and Debian will take the hit then)
[09:47] <jbailey> But with Arm, for instance, you might decide that you want to go with EABI.
[09:47] <jbailey> Or with MIPS to go with n64 or..
[09:47] <jbailey> nubi?
[09:48] <jbailey> I can't remember all of the 6 or so ABIs that MIPS has as an option.
[09:48] <jbailey> In which case, the existing Debian stuff isn't going to help you at all.
[09:48] <jbailey> I think it's often worth looking at a new port as really a time where you can say "How can we do this different, or not encumber ourselves with things we had to go through the pain of learning before"
[09:49] <jbailey> I see we're close to the end, so probably best to dive in to PPC in general.
[09:49] <jbailey> Earlier on:
 QUESTION: Is PowerPC no longer and official build for Ubuntu?
 QUESTION: Ubuntu and PS3?
[09:49] <jbailey> At this time, ppc is still an official build for Ubuntu.
[09:50] <jbailey> A spec was raised at the Ubuntu Development summit in Mountain View, California with the proposal to drop support for the PowerPC architecture.
[09:50] <jbailey> That is to say, move it to being a community supported architecture.
[09:50] <jbailey> This is based on a few things:
[09:50] <jbailey> 1) Low community participation in powerpc.
[09:50] <jbailey>  - Few install reports during the development cycle.
[09:51] <jbailey>  - Few people jumping up to look at bugs on the port, such as the R300 crashes.
[09:51] <jbailey> 2) Low download rates.
[09:51] <jbailey>  - I don't have the numbers handy, but as a total percentage of people downloading it, ppc has fallen to half what it was a year ago.
[09:51] <jbailey> 3) Difficulty in obtaining new hardware.
[09:52] <jbailey>  - PowerPC is certainly a strong and viable architecture, but with Apple not producing desktop boxes anymore, there will be fewer systems out there in developers hands.
[09:53] <jbailey>  - New embedded systems tend to be mips and arm, rather than ppc.  Unless you happen to be porting to a Cisco Router. =)
[09:53] <jbailey> The spec isn't finalised, and is sort of in a limbo stage right now.
[09:53] <jbailey> I don't know off hand which way the decision will go.
[09:53] <jbailey> But the Sony Play Station 3 uses a variant of the Ppc chip known as the Cell processor.
[09:53] <jbailey> For those who don't know, the cell processor is amazing pile of crack just waiting to be smoked.
[09:54] <jbailey> You have a ppc main chip, and I think 8 DSPs on board.
[09:54] <jbailey> So the main chip can copy things into private address space for the DSPs to deal with and return values.
[09:54] <jbailey> It's an interesting hack in that the DSPs don't speak powerpc assmebly.
[09:54] <jbailey> And the DSPs also don't have access to main ram, or the cache.
[09:54] <jbailey> Anything going to them has to be fed in explicitely and written to work there.
[09:55] <jbailey> So that's a possibility.
[09:55] <jbailey> PS3 systems are *expensive* and also not a sure thing.
[09:56] <jbailey> I know that they're shipping now, but it's not clear how a Linux community is going to take to them.
[09:56] <jbailey> At this point, I haven't seen anyone saying "I want to port Ubuntu to this thing"
[09:56] <jbailey> I suspect the people willing to wait in line for it weren't waiting so that they could format it and not play their games, y'know what I mean? =)
[09:56] <jbailey> that said, what do I think of ppc as a community arch?
[09:57] <jbailey> I think that it will certainly fair well for at least the short term if it goes that way.
[09:57] <jbailey> I still do much of the heavy lifting on glibc, for instance, and my main system is a ppc box.
[09:57] <jbailey> I know that several of the core-devs still are using their PPC laptops.
[09:57] <jbailey> But inevitably, these will all get replaced with newer and faster systems over the next few years.
[09:58] <jbailey> So if manufacturers don't produce something that devs want to use as their primary system, usage will eventually dwindle.
 QUESTION: Which is more popular with regards to downloads and participation(hacking) on Ubuntu sparc or powerpc?
[09:58] <jbailey> No idea, sorry.  The numbers I saw were only ppc against the rest of the archive.
[09:59] <jbailey> Quickly, the last three steps in becoming a port:
[09:59] <jbailey> Once you have a public archive, you need to start talking to the tech board.
[09:59] <jbailey> Some of it, is that you'll want to start using malone for bug tracking.
[09:59] <jbailey> And eventually move towards using Launchpad for your buildds.
[10:00] <jbailey> That way your packages and versions will be reported correctly in Soyuz.
[10:00] <jbailey> Launchpad is currently not completely setup for dealing with architectures hosted outside of the CAnonical data centre.
[10:00] <jbailey> But it's certainly in the model.
[10:00] <jbailey> So how it works at that point may vary by the time you get there.
 QUESTION: Which architectures do you think will grow more popular and what is Ubuntu currently ported to? (architectures)
[10:02] <jbailey> Currently ported to: i486 (called i386), amd64 (includes em64t), ultrasparc (called sparc, includes ultra3, and the niagara chipsets), itanium2 (called ia64), powerpc (includes ppc64), and hppa
[10:02] <jbailey> I'd like to see the i386 distro move to be i686 and up, in order to breath a bit more life and speed into it, but I think that we'll start to see the decline of that in the next 3 years.
[10:03] <jbailey> At this point, there isn't alot of good reason for Intel or AMD to invest new technology into building those, and I can see them pushing the amd64 systems onto their smaller fabs.
[10:03] <jbailey> amd64 is definetly on it's way up.
[10:03] <jbailey> I'm not clear where Sparc will go.
[10:04] <jbailey> I've been surprised by sparc.  Where everyone else has become either high-end data centre (alpha and hppa get swallowed by ia64, they drop workstations)
[10:04] <jbailey> or become smaller (mips, arm, m68k, classic i386 chips)
[10:04] <jbailey> Sparc and ppc have managed to stay midrange.
[10:04] <jbailey> ppc took a blow because of apple dropping them, but along comes the ps3
[10:04] <jbailey> sparc stands in it's own class, though.
[10:05] <jbailey> (I assume if there's another talk, someone will tell me?
[10:05] <jbailey> )
[10:05] <sid> There is nothing else
[10:05] <jbailey> Sun produces Sparc workstations, servers, etc. and still manges to sell a pile of them.
[10:05] <jbailey> I believe there's someone even still producing Sparc laptops.
[10:05] <jbailey> (They were for the military)
[10:05] <ma1kel> jbailey there arent any other talks planned
[10:06] <samgee> gotta go, thanks jbailey
[10:06] <jbailey> It's not a position I can see them staying in forever, but I don't know if they have something planned where someone will take them and use them in a game console,
[10:06] <jbailey> or if you'll suddently see them enter into the embedded space.
[10:06] <jbailey> The i386 legacy has got to go at some point, and I don't know how the break will be made.
[10:07] <jbailey> Intel wasn't succesful with the Itanium, and doesn't seem to be trying anymore.
[10:07] <jbailey> And if they can't do it with *their* resources...
 QUESTION: other than porting the kernel and toolchain, is it not expected that all the packages on main work with a port?
[10:07] <jbailey> Sort of. =)
[10:07] <jbailey> Where you'll often see complications is either:
[10:07] <jbailey> 1) Poorly written code.
[10:07] <jbailey> 2) Multimedia applications with processor-specific hacks.
[10:08] <jbailey> I've covered #1 above.
[10:08] <jbailey> #2 takes a moment to think about.
[10:08] <jbailey> I pick on multimedia, but it can also be things like Virtual Machines.
[10:08] <jbailey> On of the things, for instance, was when I did some porting work on the Boehm Garbage collector for Sparc.
[10:09] <jbailey> At the time, Sparc didn't have an asm label to help point to the top of the data segment.
[10:09] <jbailey> So other tricks had to be used.
[10:09] <jbailey> Jakub Jelinek from RedHat solved that problem by adding the pointer, but otherwise different hacks had to be used.
[10:09] <jbailey> So there was a bunchf of generally untested fallback code that only got used on Sparc.
[10:09] <jbailey> You'll see the same in mplayer.
[10:10] <jbailey> The traditional C routines tend to not be fast enough because C is too non-specific to render the routines with the right constraints into asm.
[10:10] <jbailey> So you'll see a smattering of asm to do the transforms.
 Question: Can I see Ubuntu on my toothbrush anywhere soon in the future? :)
[10:10] <jbailey> Err...
 QUESTION : What are the difference between i386 and i486 ? instructions ?
[10:11] <jbailey> GiYF for the full answer, of course, but I'm assuming the question comes from "why is our i386 distribution really i486?"
[10:12] <jbailey> In that particular case, it comes from i486 not containing the atomic insturctions needed to make multiprocessing work.
[10:12] <linuxboy_> yeah and in comparison with i686 .......
[10:13] <jbailey> So in particular, there's two instructions: "test and set" and "Compare and exchange", which are used to make syncrhonisation work.
[10:14] <jbailey> Test and set, says to look at an instruction in memory, see if it's a particular value and change it.
[10:14] <jbailey> If you do that in a tradition C fashion:
[10:14] <jbailey> if (foo) {
[10:14] <jbailey>   foo = 1;
[10:14] <jbailey> }
[10:14] <jbailey> Then you have the small problem that between the test and the setting, the other process could've changed the value of foo.
[10:15] <jbailey> test&set is a magic instruction that promises that this all happens in one step.
[10:15] <jbailey> i686 then added superpages,
[10:15] <jbailey> So rather than 4k pages, I think you can get 4megs I think?
[10:15] <jbailey> I don't do alot of direct ASM work.
[10:16] <jbailey> i686 optionally added an instruction called CMOV
[10:16] <jbailey> The optionally is the part that kills us here.
[10:16] <jbailey> When writing the specs, intel said that you didn't need to include some instructions that would be hard to build in.
[10:16] <jbailey> So when via made a knockoff, they didn't include it.
[10:16] <jbailey> For CMOV details, see: http://www.x86.org/secrets/opcodes/cmov.htm
 jbailey-watcher: To add to linuxboy_'s question 386/486/586/686...all those packages seem to work on my system...not sure what the differences are between them.(which kernel/packages should one chose when there are 386/486/586/686 stuff listed)
[10:17] <jbailey> (Grouping quesitons, I know I missed one)
[10:17] <jbailey> The trick with the different kernels is that the advantage of running an optimised application is usually very small outside of the multimedia space.
[10:18] <jbailey> Sure, if you're doing video, you want mmx, or ppc970 specific instructions.
[10:18] <jbailey> (This is, incidentally, which other processors don't need to play the megahertz race so much as Intel does.  the ia32 chipset really isn't very well done.  Even Intel admits that, that's why the itanium exists)
[10:19] <jbailey> In your kernel, which is always running, flipping things around, dealing with device drivers, devices, video, etc. you can see some neat advantages to how it handles everything when it can assume a higher processor level.
[10:19] <jbailey> It's also worth noting that we install the libc6-i686 package by default.
[10:20] <jbailey> So your code C library, math functions and string functions are all optimised.
[10:20] <jbailey> That usually makes all the difference you need in an application if you're not particularily intensive with video/memory/etc.
 QUESTION: You said you guys have a problem with wireless cards, do you think that there are gonna be the same sort of problems with other things in the future?
[10:21] <jbailey> Yup.  The problem is that as soon as you connect to the world outside of yourself, you have to play by other people's rules.
[10:21] <jbailey> The question is the risk of what happens if you accidentally get it wrong.
[10:21] <jbailey> If you spew crap onto the Internet, your ISP has to filter it or you take the world out.
[10:21] <jbailey> Luckily, we had the Internet before the rest of the world, so we win. =)
[10:22] <jbailey> But with wireless devices, you risk blocking out emergency frequencies, or air traffic control and the like.
[10:22] <jbailey> So from a pure safety point of view, regulators are going to want to make that as closed as possible.
[10:22] <jbailey> So once we get Linux into cars, and take drivers out of them.
[10:23] <jbailey> (something that I see as inevitable, in both cases)
[10:23] <jbailey> Will they let us hack on the software that goes in?
[10:23] <jbailey> I think it's unlikely.
[10:23] <jbailey> But how do we keep that from happening?
[10:23] <jbailey> Advocacy, and getting it right the first time.
[10:23] <jbailey> If we can be the first players in the market.
[10:23] <jbailey> If we can push the envelope to show that our software is actually *safer*
[10:23] <jbailey> Because there's no hidden terrorist plots in there.
[10:24] <jbailey> Nothing to suddenly point all of the cars full-speed towards Niagara falls.
[10:24] <jbailey> That in fact trusting the community is a better option than not.
[10:24] <jbailey> I'd like to finish up soon, did I miss any questions?
[10:25] <jbailey> Then I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone for participating in Ubuntu Open Wekk.
[10:25] <jbailey> I've heard really positive reports from the other people leading sessions.
[10:25] <jbailey> If you have any further questions for me, I can be reached at jbailey@ubuntu.com
[10:26] <jbailey> Oh!  One more questions. =)
 QUESTION jbailey-watcher: What is your favorite low power architecture(embeded?), what is your favorite high power architecture(for a desktop)? Would you chose a different one for a server? What is your favorite to hack on? Should we support Sparc since they did an awesome thing and made most of their CPU specifications *GPL?
[10:26] <jbailey> Lemme start with the Sparc question first.
[10:26] <jbailey> I think Sun deserves all of our support right now.
[10:27] <jbailey> As a company they're openning up to the community in incredible ways, between Java, embracing Linux, and the history they have.
[10:27] <jbailey> I didn't know that their process specs were GPLd, but they've traditionally submitted their specs to the IEEE, anyway.
[10:27] <jbailey> If they didn't invent openfirmware, they certainly embraced it, which is also nice.
[10:27] <jbailey> I mentioned before that I don't know where they'll go.
[10:28] <jbailey> It's a bit of a mistery to me what their plans are.
[10:28] <jbailey> As a service company, they do an excellent job.
[10:28] <jbailey> As a fully integrated system, they provided from the edge to the core in some really seemless ways.
[10:28] <jbailey> So by openning their systems up under GPL, they're really given us a treasure chest.
[10:29] <jbailey> So I hope that as a company they find their way to continued success.
[10:29] <jbailey> My favourite systems, hmm..
[10:29] <jbailey> I think I fell in love with ARM with the netwinder.
[10:29] <jbailey> If nothing else because it was *so* *cute*.
[10:30] <jbailey> But in general, when I'm looking for systems to hack on, I'm usually looking for a challenge.
[10:30] <jbailey> As a hobbiest, I can't hope to keep up with the professionals.
[10:30] <jbailey> And now that ARM has taken off (ARM, StrongARM, Xscale), there are a pile of people hacking on it professionally.
[10:31] <jbailey> Since I'm interested in low-level pieces, it means that I really can't keep up with development and contribute meaningfully to it.
[10:31] <jbailey> So if I were to start hacking on something myself, I would probably dig out a MIPS system.
[10:31] <jbailey> However, if I were to do an Ubuntu ports, I 'd probably start with ARM.
[10:31] <jbailey> Explcitely because the upstream work is largely done.
[10:31] <jbailey> For favourite high powered architecture, I like the Itaniums.
[10:32] <jbailey> I have one of the last models of ia64 that was made by HP
[10:32] <jbailey> (not at my house, please don't break in here.  It's *noisy*.  I keep those things at data centres)
[10:32] <jbailey> When Apple made their announcement that they were moving to an Intel chip, I had really hoped it was to the Itanium.
[10:32] <jbailey> I had hoped that it meant that Intel had finally sorted out their production and heat problems and were able to push this thing out into laptops.
[10:33] <jbailey> For ia64 to get popular, you'd need to convince some sort of platform shift like that.
[10:33] <jbailey> A captive market willing to take on something interesting, but for which you can guarantee that software would get written.
[10:33] <jbailey> I like it because they've taken risks with the design of the chip that you just don't see outside of academia.
[10:33] <jbailey> They thought large, they were willing to make it big.
[10:34] <jbailey> They were willing to say "This will not be in your toothbrush anytime soon"
[10:34] <jbailey> And in reality, ia64s aren't performing anywhere near their capabilities in Linux because as yet, we haven't figured out how to teach the compilers to do the work yet.
[10:34] <jbailey> But that will come.
[10:35] <jbailey> But again, I don't hack much on ia64 for the same reason I wouldn't really hack on Arm.
[10:35] <jbailey> Too big, too commerical for me to follow along.
[10:35] <jbailey> I have trouble tracking the development -- I don't have the energy to contribute to it.
[10:35] <jbailey> So lately I've been hacking on hppa.
[10:35] <jbailey> It's a great community of people.
[10:35] <jbailey> It's a neat architecture, and still leaves me lots of room to learn.
[10:35] <jbailey> And frankly if I take on a task, I can complete it at the speed I want.
[10:35] <jbailey> In general, the architecture is good enough that it works.
[10:36] <jbailey> So anything people want to cut their teeth on is probably something that noone else is touching.
[10:36] <jbailey> It's a neat space to be in.
[10:36] <jbailey> QUESTION Comparing Sparc and Itanium...what are the restrictions legally? As far as making an emulator say..or forking and making your own chip(hypothetically, I imagine it costs milllions of dollars) you can fork Sparc(there is a company that is doing that, since it's GPL'd. But can you do the same with Itanium? what are big legal differences between Itanium and Sparc..do you have more freedom with Sparc(as far as ""
[10:36] <jbailey> trusted computing"", or
 since it's GPL'd. But can you do the same with Itanium? what are big legal differences between Itanium and Sparc..do you have more freedom with Sparc(as far as ""trusted computing"", or what I call treacherous computing since you can just control your chip fully with sparc.
[10:36] <jbailey>  (if it was cutoff)
[10:37] <jbailey> As I am not a member of the Bar in Canada, I cannot give you a legal opinion.
[10:37] <jbailey> But I can tell you a bit about how I understand the law.
[10:38] <jbailey> As there's a published written specification, I believe that you can produce an implementation from that specification without restriction, subject to patent encumberances and copyright restrictions on your target code.
[10:38] <jbailey> Copyright is easy if you work directly from the published document.
[10:38] <jbailey> Patents is a whole other area of suckage, for which I will refer you to groklaw. +)
[10:39] <jbailey> Itanium is a fabulously complicated architecture.
[10:39] <jbailey> Doing a qemu port for it would be an interesting challenge.
[10:39] <jbailey> I suspect that you'd find yourself extended qemu's internals quite a bit to accomidate it.
 QUESTION: What do you think about the movement of ""trusted computing"" and the involvement of the MPAA/RIAA and Microsoft wanting to control users, do you think they will suceed? Does this scare you? Any technology can be used for good or evil, what good/evil do you see in some of these technologies like a TPM module
[10:40] <jbailey> Oy.
[10:40] <jbailey> TC is an interesting challenge.
[10:40] <jbailey> If you look at CayoteOS, they've taken the model that you can use the TC chips in Computers to make sure that your user session isn't snoopable by the admin.
[10:41] <jbailey> So a true power-to-the-people type of thing.
[10:41] <jbailey> I don't know how much traction that will get with laws like Sarbanes-Oaxley in the US.
[10:41] <jbailey> I don't know the right space for us to go with that.
[10:42] <jbailey> I'd like to see users choose artists who will provide them what they want without restrictions.
[10:42] <sid> Well they're talking about weaking Sox compliance now, or even abolishing it. Since companies are starting to list with Tokyo or London markets..and not even bother listing on wallstreet.
[10:42] <sid> Although the democrats will probably take a few years to weaken sarbannes oxley since they have so much on their plate now.
[10:42] <jbailey> But I refer you to an article in the current Scientific American where they talk about how in political science, how people feel is starting to play a more important role than raw facts.
[10:43] <jbailey> But I think this question marks us as now far enough off topic, that I'll call this officially closed. =)
[10:43] <sid> thanks a lot for the information and help jbailey. I appreciate you answering all the questions for myself and everyone else.
[10:44] <ma1kel> Thanks.
[10:44] <jbailey> sid: Glad to. =)
[10:44] <sid> jbailey: You know about open graphics project and how they're going to make a graphics chip that the whole specification is GPL'd and it will basically be a community designed chipset..you think the same thing is feasible/possible with a cpu?
[10:45] <ma1kel> Does anyone know if the logs of the sessions are gonna be uploaded somewhere, I would love to see the logs of some other sessions.
[10:45] <sid> ma1kel: yea someone is definitely doing something with the logs from what I can tell. They're going up somewhere.
[10:45] <jbailey> sid: Sure, it's something almost every Comp.Eng student does.
[10:45] <jbailey> sid: The problem with any open hardware platform is getting fab time to produce one after.
[10:46] <ma1kel> ah, ill keep an eye out on planetubuntu
[10:46] <jbailey> ma1kel: The logs are all at the place in the topic, I think they just haven't been sliced out yet.
[10:46] <jbailey> sid: I haven't followed the open graphics stuff too closely, as I'm not really a hardware geek.
[10:46] <ma1kel> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[10:47] <ma1kel> thanks
[10:47] <jbailey> So the question in my mind is always, "So how would I get one"
[10:47] <jbailey> "And what would I do with it then"
[10:47] <jbailey> What I'm *more* interested in is looking at that fridge, and seeing an Ubuntu bootsplash on it when it comes up.
[10:47] <jbailey> We're surrounded by processing power.
[10:47] <jbailey> Why not hack all of it?
[10:49] <ma1kel> lol
[10:51] <ma1kel> 10:23	jbailey	Because there's no hidden terrorist plots in there.
[10:51] <ma1kel> thats the last log on the irclogs archive
[10:53] <linuxboy_> ok thanks a lot !!!
[10:54] <jbailey> ma1kel: It's probably just a sync delay or something.
[10:54] <jbailey> Otherwise I have it in my logs and can give it to them.
[10:54] <ma1kel> Yea.
[10:56] <ma1kel> Lets see what happens if I submit it as an item to digg
[11:12] <ma1kel> http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_OpenWeek_session_logs
[11:13] <somerville32> :)
[11:21] <decan> ..
[11:46] <ma1kel> http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_OpenWeek_session_logs
[11:51] <LKRaider> using htmlopt I could reduce the 2,5 mb file to 2mb
[11:52] <LKRaider> *htmloptim