[12:28] <ailean> guys, what is the best program to program with?  I want to learn how to program for Linux.  I have a background in C/C++ and Java: which is the most used?
[12:29] <Burgwork> ailean: that entirely depends on what you are doing
[12:29] <ailean> okay, a vocabulary trainer for gnome
[12:29] <Burgwork> right
[12:29] <ailean> simple one to start with
[12:29] <Burgwork> python is frequently used for basic desktop apps
[12:30] <ailean> Burgwork, i've never done python . . .
[12:30] <Burgwork> C is more common that C++ in GNOME
[12:30] <ailean> Burgwork, I prefer C++ - can't be bothered with all that memory allocation :)
[12:31] <keescook> ailean: the gtkmm stuff is great for gnome.
[12:31] <dilinger> rodarvus: ping
[12:32] <ailean> keescook, libraries with which to create windows/buttons etc?
[12:32] <keescook> ailean: right, gtkmm is the OO toolkit for doing Gnome apps.
[12:33] <ailean> cool
[12:33] <keescook> http://www.gtkmm.org/developers.shtml
[12:33] <ailean> keescook, so programming for ubuntu is no different really to programming for windows? just a different toolkit?
[12:33] <ailean> thanks
[12:34] <keescook> ailean: well... you'll find many many differences, but if you're just worried about GUI apps, programming is programming.  :)
[12:34] <ailean> lol
[12:34] <ailean> at the moment, that's all i'm concerned with :)
[12:35] <ailean> poco a poco
[12:35] <ailean> i did a fair bit of programming in uni, but i don't do it for recreation
[12:35] <keescook> the API is what you write to, so it's not easy to port a C++ program from windows to gnome, but writing a new app?  No problem.  :)
[12:35] <ailean> aye, a new app is what i'm doin
[12:35] <ailean> dunno if the world will ever see it, but hey :)
[12:36] <superm1> keescook, Burgwork, do u guys have any good guides to get started with python/pygtk?  i have an app that either me or another person on my team will be writing - and either pygtk or perl-gtk will probably be the basis - but neither of us have worked in python or perl-gtk - just C,Java, and ordinary perl
[12:36] <keescook> superm1: I'm kinda in the same boat.  For fun I write small pygtk apps.  Never really finished any of them, though.  :)
[12:36] <superm1> hehe
[12:37] <keescook> the pygtk examples (iirc) are pretty good
[12:37] <ajmitch> diveintopython.org, and the pygtk tutorial/reference
[12:37] <superm1> k great.  thanks 
[12:38] <ailean> and don't tell me, you're one of these guys that enjoys programming with vi or gedit
[12:38] <ailean> @ keescook 
[12:38] <ailean> or do u use eclipse or something?
[12:39] <ailean> lol
[12:39] <keescook> I've seen people rave about eclipse
[12:39] <keescook> but I haven't tried it.
[12:39] <superm1> ailean, you can try SciTE too
[12:39] <keescook> I do much more patching than coding, so vim is good for my workflow
[12:39] <ailean> superm1, unfortunate name :)
[12:40] <ailean> i'm looking for something akin to borland c++ builder
[12:40] <ailean> i may move onto lighter apps in the future when i know what i'm doing :D
[12:42] <jdong> ailean: try vim with a few sleep loops whenever a key like . ( :: or -> is pressed :)
[12:43] <ailean> ah i hate you guys so much
[12:43] <ailean> :P
[12:43] <jdong> we love you too :)
[12:43] <ailean> heh
[12:43] <ailean> seriously though, i am looking for advice
[12:43] <jdong> but seriously... anjuta, eclipse-cdt
[12:44] <ailean> thanks :)
[12:44] <jdong> though eclipse-cdt is more than amusingly slow on my core duo
[12:44] <jdong> though they say doing it slower prevents mistakes, right?
[12:44] <ailean> ok, i'll give anjuta a shot then
[12:44] <ailean> nah, the way i program i make lots of mistakes then fix them
[12:44] <ailean> that's why i need a devel package other than vim
[12:45] <jdong> anjuta is a good IDE :)
[12:45] <ailean> i'll give it a shot then, cheers :D
[01:26] <Solarion> keescook: are you around?
[01:26] <keescook> Solarion: yup, what's up?
[01:26] <Solarion> keescook: I'm GiuseppeVerde.  :)
[01:27] <keescook> ah-ha!  real-time debugging.  :)
[01:27] <Solarion> I gots a core and a map file for you
[01:27] <Solarion> well
[01:27] <Solarion> I dunno how much more pain I want to take....  ;)
[01:27] <keescook> heh
[01:27] <Solarion> xorg has crashed enough for a while
[01:27] <keescook> you've done a great job tracking this down.  I just wish I was have to reproduce it.
[01:27] <keescook> hehe
[01:27] <Solarion> the core is uplading, but it's huge.
[01:27] <Solarion> did you install all of the fonts?
[01:28] <keescook> not yeah, I was going to do it monday, since my workstation is amd64/feisty.  I was going to prep my laptop to try and track it down
[01:28] <keescook> er, not yet.
[01:29] <Solarion> it may have been fixed upstream (or in the rc3)
[01:29] <Solarion> but regardless, fonts and/or symbols should not crash X.
[01:29] <keescook> Solarion: oh?  did you find a changelog or upstream bug?
[01:29] <Solarion> keescook: nope.  But if you can't reproduce it with feisty, it may just be a temporary slip-up
[01:30] <Solarion> any chance randr1.2 is going to make it into feisty?
[01:30] <Solarion> :)
[01:30] <keescook> no clue.  :)
[01:30] <Solarion> when is it supposed to be beta?
[01:31] <Burgwork> Solarion: randr was just merged into master, for xorg 7.23
[01:31] <Burgwork> 7.3, rather
[01:31] <keescook> feisty beta?  Hm https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule says Mar 22
[01:31] <Burgwork> 7.2 is about to launched, with 7.3 coming between feisty and feisty+1
[01:31] <Solarion> Burgwork: ketihp said it might be released separately as well
[01:32] <Solarion> :(
[01:32] <Solarion> I want the randr1.2 tasty....  :)
[01:32] <jdong> Burgwork: not gonna put DT_GNU_HASH in herd1 release notes?
[01:32] <Burgwork> jdong: please tell me how anybody would care
[01:32] <jdong> Burgwork: it falls in the significant performance boost category?
[01:33] <Solarion> keescook: dang.  tahat's pretty late.  Guess I'm not going to the march meeting with dynamic screen tasty regardless.
[01:33] <Burgwork> jdong: give me a fancy graph and I will
[01:33] <jdong> Burgwork: plus Redhat superhyped it in FC6's release and now all the ricers are buzzing about it :-/
[01:33] <Burgwork> blah
[01:33] <Burgwork> we are not slaves to RH
[01:33] <Solarion> keescook: have fun; gotta jet.
[01:34] <Solarion> msg me if you need me; I'll get it when I'm back
[01:34] <keescook> Solarion: okay, thanks again for your awsome debugging!
[01:34] <jdong> Burgwork: still... IMO it's a big deal (tm)
[01:34] <jdong> ok, maybe not for GNOME
[01:34] <Burgwork> jdong: again, make he care and I will
[01:34] <jdong> but the kubuntu camp....
[01:34] <Burgwork> that those are Ubuntu release notes, not Kubuntu ones
[01:34] <jdong> Burgwork: http://lwn.net/Articles/192624/
[01:35] <jdong> Burgwork: section 4.0
[01:35] <Burgwork> still no fancy tables to make me care
[09:54] <sivang> howdy folks
[11:59] <ailean> hey Hobbsee 
[11:59] <Hobbsee> hey ailean 
[11:59] <Hobbsee> how are our cds?
[12:02] <ailean> i didn't have the balls to install . . .
[12:02] <ailean> Hobbsee, i have a lot of important data here :)
[12:03] <Hobbsee> haha
[12:03] <Hobbsee> but they've been fixed, and released/
[12:04] <ailean> it's safe then? ;)
[12:05] <Hobbsee> s#/#?#g
[12:05] <Hobbsee> i've got no idea, i havent been here
[12:05] <ailean> lol
[12:06] <ailean> I'll give it a couple of weeks then I will
[12:08] <Hobbsee> dual boot
[12:08] <ailean> aye . . .
[12:09] <ailean> i do have a spare partition to use. it's 15GB . . .
[12:09] <ailean> should be enough. . .
[12:09] <ailean> and a super grub disc :)
[12:10] <Hobbsee> heh
[12:10] <ailean> ah what the hell
[12:10] <ailean> i'll have a look
[12:10] <ailean> as long as it doesn't touch windows i'm fine
[12:11] <ailean> i can access all linux partitions from there to save any data should the worst happen
[12:11] <Hobbsee> well, it could hose your entire system
[12:11] <ailean> but it won't
[12:12] <Hobbsee> hopefully
[12:14] <ailean> ah sure i'll take a look and see how i feel
[12:14] <ailean> quit tryin to scare me ;P
[12:14] <Hobbsee> well, no...but the installer hasnt been tested as yet
[12:15] <ailean> ok, i consider myself warned :)
[12:15] <ailean> thanks :)
[12:16] <Hobbsee> hehe
[12:16] <ailean> i know i seem like a complete idiot, but i'm not
[12:16] <ailean> not a *complete* idiot
[12:16] <ailean> not as clever as you, but still :P
[12:17] <ailean> screivin tae a disc th nou
[12:17] <Hobbsee> nah, you're not an idiot at all
[12:18] <ailean> (that's Scots)
[12:19] <ailean> screivin = "sgrobh"-ing, where sgrobh is gaelic for to write
[12:19] <ailean> tae a disc the now = to a disc just now
[12:20] <StevenK> Ah.
[12:20] <StevenK> He's burning a disc
[12:20] <ailean> yep :)
[12:20] <_ion> Now i know where the Swedish word "skriva" was stolen from. :-)
[12:20] <ailean> sounds like it :)
[12:20] <ailean> is that the standard very for to write in swedish?
[12:20] <ailean> *verb
[12:21] <Hobbsee> ah right
[12:21] <Mithrandir> _ion: hard to know in what direction it went, given that it could just as easily have come from German "schrieben"
[12:22] <ailean> well germanic and celtic languages are both indo-european
[12:22] <ailean> in english we have scribe too
[12:23] <Mithrandir> hiya Hobbsee 
[12:23] <ailean> richt, am awa tae gie the disc a wee shottie an wi ony luik it'll no scunner ma haurd disc . . .
[12:23] <Mithrandir> ailean: true.  English has taken up more words than it has given to others, though.
[12:24] <ailean> yep, no arguments there
[12:24] <Mithrandir> heck, english imported pronouns from other languages less than a thousand years ago.
[12:24] <ajmitch> hi Mithrandir 
[12:24] <ailean> what's your sig StevenK?
[12:24] <StevenK> "English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
[12:24] <ailean> hehe
[12:24] <Mithrandir> ("they" came from Norse ey, so did bagga which became bag)
[12:24] <Mithrandir> hiya Andrew
[12:25] <ailean> ah it's the worst possible choice for an international language . . .
[12:25] <Mithrandir> not really, everybody finds common ground there.
[12:25] <ailean> ah i wish we still used eth and thorn . . .
[12:25] <Mithrandir> so everybody is on equal (bad) footing.
[12:25] <Hobbsee> except the native speakers, of course
[12:25] <ailean> yeah, but something like spanish would have been so much easier
[12:26] <ailean> not for me, like, but for the rest of the world
[12:26] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: IME, the native english speakers are on equally bad ground too.. :-P
[12:26] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: hehehehe.  there's a point, a lot are.
[12:26] <ailean> you guys all speak better english than a lot of people living around here, and that is no exaggeration
[12:26] <StevenK> We all speak English as she should be spoke!
[12:27] <ailean> the Scandinavians especially amaze me . . .
[12:28] <ailean> richt, am awa tae gie the disc a wee shottie an wi ony luik it'll no scunner ma haurd disc . . .right, i'm going to try out the disc and with any luck, it won't wreck my hard disc
[12:28] <ailean> brb
[12:28] <Hobbsee> good luck!
[12:28] <StevenK> Gee, it's just like listening to my father in law talk.
[12:28] <ajmitch> heh
[12:34] <ailean> looks very clean . . .
[12:35] <cjwatson> ailean,Hobbsee: no, they're not working properly yet
[12:35] <ailean> what aren't?
[12:36] <Hobbsee> cjwatson: ah
[12:36] <Hobbsee> ailean: the cds
[12:36] <ailean> ok, i'm not going to install yet then . . . :)
[12:36] <cjwatson> ailean: the alternate install CD won't get past detecting the CD if you have an IDE CD drive (fix in progress). You might have better luck with the desktop CD; my last attempt failed due to something specific to the SCSI controller VMware emulates
[12:36] <ailean> but this live-cd is running at an amazing speed
[12:36] <cjwatson> (that should be fixed now)
[12:37] <ailean> i have the desktop cd
[12:37] <cjwatson> ailean: you need to upgrade ubiquity and possibly initramfs-tools before trying to start the installer
[12:38] <cjwatson> ubiquity 1.3.0 is guaranteed to hang near the end
[12:38] <cjwatson> and actually probably guaranteed to crash a bit before that ;)
[12:38] <ailean> thanks cjwatson
[12:38] <cjwatson> 1.3.1 was OK for me
[12:38] <StevenK> cjwatson: Why, you added a busy loop? :-P
[12:38] <cjwatson> StevenK: forgot to check the return value of read() in a while loop
[12:38] <cjwatson> (d'oh)
[12:38] <StevenK> So, yes. :-P
[12:39] <ailean> cjwatson: i'll dist-upgrade if/when i decide to install :)
[12:40] <Fujitsu> cjwatson: Can you please let gcl (and maxima, once gcl has built) into dapper-updates? They have received the necessary confirmations of workingness, and have the blessing of motu-sru.
[12:40] <ailean> is it just me or has everything been reduced in size a bit?
[12:50] <kmon_> Hi, is there any channel for the ubuntu backports team? 
[12:53] <kmon_> threre's a small regresion I would lie to discuss in the new compiz backport
[12:53] <kmon_> s/lie/like
[01:39] <admin123> http://releases.ubuntu.com/dapper/ubuntu-6.06.1-desktop-i386.iso
[01:40] <admin123> We have amd systemes which have SIS chipets and intel systems which have Via chipsets. I was wondering how well X autoconfiguration is implented. for example: dpkg-reconfigure -f noninteractive -pcritical xserver-xorg dosn't modify my configuration, when I put a via cipset driver on a nv driver it still remains standing on the nv driver instead of chaning it.
[04:02] <sfllaw> Does anyone know why netkit-inetd doesn't depend on update-inetd?
[04:10] <pirast> doko, ping
[04:35] <pradeep> hi dholbach :)
[04:35] <dholbach> hi pradeep
[04:36] <sivang> hi dholbach 
[04:41] <sfllaw> dholbach: I have a crazy question about fonts for you.
[04:41] <dholbach> sfllaw: uh. fonts? me?
[04:41] <dholbach> hi sivang
[04:41] <dholbach> sfllaw: you can try, but I can't promise anything
[04:42] <sfllaw> GNOME already defaults to using 96dpi for its font handling.
[04:42] <sfllaw> But there are portions of GNOME that still use server-side fonts.
[04:42] <sfllaw> Like GDM.
[04:43] <sfllaw> Does it make sense just to tell the X Server to use 96 dpi by default?
[04:43] <sfllaw> So it's consistent?
[04:43] <sfllaw> See http://scanline.ca/dpi/ for a good argument.
[04:43] <sivang> hi sfllaw 
[04:43] <sfllaw> sivang: Hello.
[04:43] <dholbach> sfllaw: we should discuss that with kubuntu and xubuntu folks too
[04:43] <sfllaw> dholbach: Yes.
[04:43] <dholbach> sfllaw: I know that KDE uses 96dpi also
[04:44] <dholbach> sfllaw: they set it somewhere, I dunno where
[04:44] <dholbach> sfllaw: Might be good to make that a default, I agree
[04:44] <dholbach> sfllaw: is that something that turned up in a but?
[04:44] <sivang> sfllaw: you pinged me the other day, I take it you saw my response already to that?
[04:44] <dholbach> errr bug? :)
[04:44] <sfllaw> dholbach: It's not.
[04:44] <dholbach> alright
[04:44] <sfllaw> It's something that turned up when I looked at our 40" LCD in the office.
[04:44] <dholbach> ahhh right
[04:44] <_ion> I hate stuff overriding the X server'd DPI setting. I rather set the DisplaySize for all my monitors and have consistent font sizes.
[04:44] <sfllaw> 10pt fonts there are illegible.
[04:45] <dholbach> 40" - bloody hell
[04:47] <_ion> "User interfaces are designed in terms of pixels."  The sooner that changes the better.
[04:47] <sfllaw> _ion: It would be good to have absolute and relative sizes, when it comes to DPI.
[04:47] <sfllaw> _ion: But it doesn't really apply.
[04:47] <sfllaw> _ion: For instance, putting something up on a projector changes the real DPI.
[04:47] <sfllaw> But you don't want this to actually scale.  That would suck big time.
[04:48] <sfllaw> We'll only start seeing relative DPI be useful when we hit 300dpi and up.
[04:48] <sfllaw> And even then, what will likely happen is that monitor manufacturers will standardize.
[04:48] <sfllaw> Maybe on 300, 600, and 1200 like printers.
[04:48] <sfllaw> And then we'd have hinting designed for those three DPIs only.
[04:48] <sfllaw> But for now...
[04:49] <_ion> ...
[04:49] <sfllaw> dholbach: I think the best way to implement this for GNOME is to change gdm.conf to specify -dpi 96 to /usr/X11R6/bin/X.
[04:49] <_ion> You don't need hinting when DPI is big enough.
[04:49] <dholbach> sfllaw: I'll talk to seb about it
[04:49] <sfllaw> _ion: You do.  You don't want partial pixels.
[04:49] <sfllaw> dholbach: Please do.
[04:49] <_ion> Hinting and antialiasing become totally redundant.
[04:49] <sfllaw> dholbach: If we can decide on doing this in GNOME, we can approach the KDE and Xubuntu guys.
[04:49] <sfllaw> And set a "policy" for DPI on Ubuntu.
[04:50] <sfllaw> Sanity here would be good.
[04:50] <sfllaw> _ion: You don't want partial pixels for horizontal and vertical lines.
[04:51] <sfllaw> Laser printers still do this kind of optimization at 1200 dpi.
[04:52] <sfllaw> Vertical and horizontal lines snap to the nearest dot.
[04:52] <sfllaw> Otherwise you'd have to dither.
[04:52] <sfllaw> (Ick.)
[04:54] <dholbach> right
[04:55] <_ion> At a high enough resolution, is the snapping you described really different from just using a threshold  not antialiasing or dithering?
[04:59] <_ion> I mean in terms of a human being able to see the difference
[05:03] <sfllaw> _ion: Well, at super high resolutions, you don't need it.
[05:03] <sfllaw> But the human eye is pretty good at noticing problems with fine print.
[05:06] <_ion> And another thing: if hinting *is* used, i'm not sure it's worth doing the hints manually at  300 dpi anymore. I might be wrong of course.
[05:09] <_ion> When the glyph shapes are only one or two pixels thick, manual hinting surely yields better results than automatic hinting, but when they become much thicker, it probably doesn't need to be so precise anymore.
[05:58] <MagnusR> local
[06:13] <rmjb> hello, any update on herd 1?
[09:51] <poningru> quick question where is the ramdisk and the linux kernel image in the 6.10 iso
[09:51] <Mithrandir> in install/, iirc
[09:52] <poningru> oh
[09:52] <poningru> thats the one used for live cd as well?
[09:52] <Mithrandir> vmlinuz and initrd.gz, I think.
[09:52] <Mithrandir> the live initrd is the one on the live cd, the kernel is common
[09:52] <poningru> hmm I dont see it in /install
[09:54] <poningru> this is 6.10-desktop cd
[09:54] <Mithrandir> it's in /casper; sorry
[09:54] <Mithrandir> initrd.gz and vmlinuz
[09:54] <poningru> ah sweet thanks so much
[09:54] <poningru> working on instlinux :)
[09:55] <Mithrandir> I think that project is madness, but I'm not going to stop you.  Also, I shouldn't be talking, given that so many of my projects aren't much more sane.
[09:56] <poningru> hehe
[10:00] <poningru> also where is pxeconfig.cfg?
[10:02] <Mithrandir> pxeconfig?
[10:02] <poningru> its the default boot options
[10:02] <poningru> err pxeconfig.cfg/defaults atleast is
[10:03] <poningru> I just need to know the default boot options
[10:04] <Mithrandir> we don't use pxelinux on the cd
[10:04] <Mithrandir> we use isolinux
[10:04] <Mithrandir> you want to look at isolinux/isolinux.cfg
[10:05] <poningru> oh
[10:06] <poningru> doh thanks
[10:19] <jdong> Mithrandir: ping, can you do backports?
[10:20] <Mithrandir> jdong: yes, but not at 22:19 on a saturday evening.
[10:20] <jdong> aww can't even convice you to do one package? ;-)
[10:20] <jdong> that's fine
[10:38] <Adri2000> Mithrandir: and when will you (archive admins) start to do the syncs (https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-archive/+subscribedbugs) ? Monday? :-)
[10:38] <jdong> Adri2000: colin did about 100 backports yesterday :)
[10:39] <jdong> Adri2000: so I think he's beat :D
[10:39] <Adri2000> great :p
[10:40] <gnomefreak> is there any thoughts on adding kompozer or something else to replace NVU?
[10:43] <Mithrandir> Adri2000: I did some syncs yesterday; we get to them as we go.
[10:45] <Adri2000> Mithrandir: ok good, and can you take a look at bug 73847 please, it is needed by some packages
[10:45] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 73847 in tagcoll "tagcoll has been renamed to tagcoll2 in Debian" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73847
[10:45] <Mithrandir> Adri2000: it's still Saturday evening for me, so no.
[10:46] <Adri2000> of course :) it is also for me
[10:46] <Adri2000> I can wait until monday
[11:25] <cr3> what have "knot" released been renamed to?
[11:25] <mc44> cr3: Herd
[11:25] <mc44> cr3: not to be confused with GNU/Hurd
[11:26] <mc44> cr3: as evidenced by the fact that they managed to get one out :)
[11:26] <cr3> mc44: cheers! and how can I know when to expect herd releases?
[11:26] <mc44> cr3: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyReleaseSchedule although Herds are not on there yet... every two weeks or so
[11:27] <gnomefreak> cr3: there is no telling just keep checking the wiki
[11:27] <Burgundavia> cr3: herd 1 is coming very soon, next few days
[11:28] <cr3> mc44: if herds aren't there yet, I can expect them to be sooner or later, right?
[11:29] <mc44> cr3: depends on wheter Mithrandir puts them on there :p
[11:29] <cr3> mc44: heh, alright then
[11:30] <jdong> mc44: aww you precluded a hurd joke :(
[11:30] <mc44> jdong: like shooting fish in a barrel :p
[11:34] <cr3> mc44: what will be the version number for feisty? 7.04?
[11:34] <mc44> cr3: yes