/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/12/05/#ubuntu-marketing.txt

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elkbuntuBurgwork, is next weekend 'a weekend with beryl'?12:50
Burgworkif they package it in time12:50
lotusleafelkbuntu: a weekend with beryl?12:52
elkbuntulotusleaf, Burgwork spent last weekend arguing with compiz12:52
Burgworksee planet12:53
lotusleafelk & burg thx12:53
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lotusleafBurgwork: "All in all, I was less than thrilled. Does compiz meet Ubuntu's quality standards? Absolutely not. I would embarrassed to give someone Ubuntu if we installed compiz in this state."01:08
lotusleafBurgwork: that's why I've held off from testing it (aside from a Mandriva One LiveCD I tried)01:08
Burgworkyep01:08
lotusleafBurgwork: I wanted to wait until a lot of the bugs were hammered out.01:08
lotusleafBurgwork: I guess, though, I could join up with the testers following your call for testing, but would that include Beryl?01:09
Burgworkyep, as long as you use stock beryl from the repos01:09
lotusleafBurgwork: is beryl ever going to be hosted in ubuntu's repos?01:09
Burgworkyes01:09
lotusleafawesome01:10
lotusleafBurgwork: will you continue to test it or did you remove all your hair?01:10
tonyyarussoThe beryl project head has been swinging by Ubuntu IRC channels lately actually01:10
lotusleaftonyyarusso: ya, I've noticed, I hope it [beryl]  receives a lot of testing.01:11
=== jenda can vouch for Beryl.
Burgworkyes, I will01:11
jendaIt's great, and it alone in my hands converted at least 5 people to Ubuntu.01:11
jendaSimply because it looks great, and works decently (great, considering early beta stage)01:12
tonyyarussoI think it _could_ be great, IF it got a lot more development work and bugfixing and if we had better video drivers (I'm one of the poor saps with ATI).01:12
jendatonyyarusso: I'm on ATI too :(01:13
jendaIt was still good enough to present at the Linux weekend to 100+ people :)01:13
jendaunfortunately, on XGL01:13
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Burgworkjenda: what card do you have?01:14
lotusleafsounds cool, I'll have to give it some testing, but I have to use 9626 v. of the nvidia driver because the newest version segfaults on me with any opengl, a noted bug which includes my card, sadly01:15
jendaBurgwork: Radeon X30001:15
Burgworkx300 should work with 3d with free drivers01:15
jendait _just_ runs smooth. When I turn on a few more effects, it's not smooth anymore.01:15
tonyyarussojenda: Exact same card as me01:15
jendaBurgwork: eek :)01:15
jendaBurgwork: tried that.01:16
tonyyarussoBurgwork: Really?01:16
Burgworkyep01:16
jendaTrust me - XGL is better.01:16
tonyyarussoWhich ones?01:16
tonyyarussoati or radeon?01:16
jendatonyyarusso: the radeon driver01:16
tonyyarussoOr whatever else is out there?01:16
tonyyarussoIntriguing01:16
Burgworkanything below the  x1xxx series has 3d support01:16
Burgworknowhere near as good, however01:16
jendaof course.01:16
jendatonyyarusso: seriously, on my machine, radeon+AIGLX is unusable.01:17
jendaOTOH, XGL is so good I can use it as my main desktop.01:17
tonyyarussojenda: Good to know01:18
tonyyarussoI'd love if it worked with aiglx, but hey01:18
jendahttp://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4315/desktopchartenxz9.png01:18
jendaBTW01:18
jendaI made that chart for the presentation, if anyone has use for it :)01:18
tonyyarussoI've heard there's some big changes coming to Xorg for Feisty+1 though, so maybe then?01:18
jendamaybe01:18
jendabut I believe it's simply the fact that it's a haxxored driver, ya know.01:19
tonyyarussoThat too01:19
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lotusleafjenda: is Beryl worth using with the 9626 v. [beta]  of the nvidia driver or should I wait if/when nvidia fixes the segfault bug that affects my gfx card?01:30
=== rjian good morning people
lotusleafrjian: good evening01:30
jendalotusleaf: no idea...01:31
rjianlotusleaf: hello01:31
lotusleafjenda: k thx01:31
jendalotusleaf: I installed it on one nvidia machine for the presentation, and I used a guide I'll link you to...01:32
jendait work _perfectly_01:32
jendaas in - no tweaking at all.01:32
lotusleafjenda: thx is it the forum or document storage thing guide(s)?01:32
lotusleafthat sounds cool01:32
jendayes, one of those.01:32
lotusleafah, got em bookmarked already, but thx =)01:32
lotusleafI installed the nvidia driver manually =)01:32
lotusleafk time to build beryl01:33
jendahttp://doc.gwos.org/index.php/BerylOnEdgy01:33
jendathat's the one I used.01:33
lotusleafjenda: =) thx01:33
jendajust so you know which driver ;)01:33
jendalotusleaf: and there's always #ubuntu-xgl :)01:34
lotusleafjenda: very true! but it's like a ghost town saloon, and I'm not packin' ;)01:35
jendahehe ):01:35
jendaerr :)01:35
jendanot entirely true - I got help there whenever I needed, and now I try to help too.01:35
=== jenda has ops there, too.
lotusleafjenda: I'm sure I'll flap into that channel though and lay some eggs of inquiry when I venture into the caves of Beryl01:36
jendahehe01:36
jendaok01:36
jenda#ubuntu-beryl forwards there ;)01:36
Burgworkhttp://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2006/10/make_something_.html01:36
Burgworkugh01:36
Burgworkit shoudl ubuntu-desktop-effects01:37
jendait should01:37
lotusleaf /. : "Novell "Forking" OpenOffice.org"01:37
jendaby try moving an established channel :)01:37
Burgworklotusleaf: garbage01:37
lotusleafBurgwork: k01:37
BurgworkNovell has "forked" OO.o since teh beginning01:37
jendaBurgwork: there is also #ubuntu-effects, but it's near empty, mainly the hardcore enthusiasts and devs there.01:37
jendait's not intended as a support chan.01:38
lotusleafBurgwork: I thought so, the titles on /., lately, IMO, have reminded me of gossip columns 01:38
Burgworkactually, that comes from groklaw01:38
lotusleafBurgwork: ah, really?01:40
Burgworkype01:40
Burgworklotusleaf: you don't trust my omnipresence? :)01:40
lotusleaflol01:40
Burgworkthere is a reason writing about happenings is so easy for me01:40
lotusleafBurgwork: do you subscribe to all these sites' feeds or do you check them manually?01:41
Burgworka little of both01:41
lotusleafcool01:42
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somerville32http://www.technewsworld.com/story/54507.html02:30
somerville32So, when do we usually release The Ubuntu Weekly newsletters? Weekly? haha02:34
elkbuntuit'd be good if we could do it before end of tuesday02:35
elkbuntuBurgwork, what are you doing at work still?02:36
somerville32elkbuntu: I can't help on Tuesday unfortunately 02:39
somerville32I'm going to try and get some stuff done tonight02:44
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somerville32Ok.03:36
somerville32Updated news, press, upcoming meetings, updates & security, and bug stats03:36
somerville32I also started Issue 2504:08
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lotusleafMadpilot: did jenda post your v.3 poster set to the DIY area ?04:50
MadpilotI think so, yes04:50
lotusleafMadpilot: still dated @ nov 23rd http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/DIY%20Material/Ubuntu_Posters_Roughcut/04:51
Madpilothmm, so it is04:52
lotusleafping him to grab the ubuntu poster pack, unless he has it already04:52
lotusleafyou cc:'d it to him I think04:52
lotusleafbut he's a busy dude, so.. ;)04:53
MadpilotI did CC him at the same time I sent it to you; I'll ask again when I see him next on IRC04:57
=== somerville32 coughs something about Xubuntu and getting some Xubuntu stickers and what not.
Madpilotsomerville32, want an Xubuntu version of the roughcut stuff?05:03
somerville32Sure :)05:05
elkbuntuyeah xubuntu needs alot more pushing, now that gnome and kde are getting bloatier05:07
Madpilotbloatier? Gnome keeps getting *faster* with each new release, not bloatier...05:11
lotusleafnow that java's open source, LookingGlassUbuntu sounds even closer to reality05:13
elkbuntui must be in need of a reinstall then... my desktop's gotten slower and uses over a gig of memory w/ 20 firefox tabs, gimp, thunderbird, xchat, gaim and amsn05:13
elkbuntuit's a dist-upgraded breezy install05:14
somerville32I find that I need to create a brand new account on my system every once and awhile and it seems to clear up performance issues.05:20
somerville32Everyone, feel free to push Xubuntu :)05:21
elkbuntui need to rebuild this machine anyway.. maybe some extra ram, reorganise stuff between the drives05:21
somerville32elkbuntu: I have a 333mhz w/ 128mb of ram05:21
somerville32:] 05:21
lotusleafsomerville32: xubuntu is very nice ;)05:22
somerville32lotusleaf: Especially 6.06 - I hear 6.10 is a tad bit unstable.05:22
tonyyarussoWill Xubuntu put extra stuff in my Gnome menus like Kubuntu did?05:22
lotusleafMadpilot: oooh! An xubuntu roughcut poster!05:23
=== lotusleaf rubs paws together
elkbuntusomerville32, i have gnome in a debian etch install on a p2 350 with 256mb ram and it scrapes through05:23
Madpilotlotusleaf, not tonight, but maybe by the end of the week ;)05:23
lotusleafMadpilot: (= 05:23
somerville32elkbuntu: Yeah, I can run gnome and kde too but Xubuntu has a definite speed boost (and looks a lot better too!)05:24
lotusleafsomerville32: have you tried openbox with pypanel?05:24
elkbuntui wouldnt go that far :05:24
somerville32lotusleaf: No but I have pypanel installed 05:24
lotusleafsomerville32: try it, openbox flies!05:24
elkbuntui cant cram enough into either xfce or kde panels :05:25
somerville32elkbuntu: Well, gaim looks a lot better in Xubuntu. 05:25
lotusleafelkbuntu: no? back in the days of DOS I had a batch file driven ASCII-GUI menu system =)05:25
=== lotusleaf wants an ASCII GUI desktop =)
somerville32You already do :P05:26
elkbuntulotusleaf, i said panels... i have like 20 launchers on my panels, as well as xmms, weather, run app, window selector and other default ones05:26
elkbuntuand i USE all 4 of my desktops :05:26
somerville32haha05:26
lotusleafelkbuntu: ah, wow =)05:26
somerville32I have two vdesktops05:26
somerville32and I only put stray windows in my second one05:26
somerville32I don't run that many applications05:26
elkbuntui give gimp it's own desktop05:27
somerville32Just xchat, gaim (which is in the notification centre) , firefox, and terminal05:27
elkbuntuit needs it05:27
somerville32Yeah, it does05:27
elkbuntuthen run musics stuff in another05:27
elkbuntuand random terminals in the 4th05:27
somerville32I use the second desktop when I'm using glade05:27
somerville32And if the music player of the day doesn't have notification minimization, I put it in desktop 205:28
elkbuntumkay, so gnome fits my usage well :)05:28
lotusleaf<- KDE / OpenBox slut05:28
elkbuntui've tried kubuntu, although it's menus are a crapload nicer than any kde i've ever used, it's panel sux0r05:28
somerville32Xfce4 is like a light version of gnome but without the gnome05:28
elkbuntui like the gnome05:28
somerville32gnome == bloat05:29
lotusleafelkbuntu: agreed on that point only05:29
lotusleafelkbuntu: though you can always make it like gnome05:29
lotusleafelkbuntu: you can add tons of panels and such05:29
elkbuntui know you can but i'd rather just use gnome05:29
elkbuntui dont care about candy05:29
lotusleafelkbuntu: I still use epiphany for the toe wiggle animation in KDE :)05:29
elkbuntulol05:29
elkbuntuif i have to make something look and behave like something else to use it, i'd rather just use the something else ;)05:30
somerville32elkbuntu: Xubuntu comes and looks like gnome by default :P05:31
elkbuntutwo full width panels by default?05:31
somerville32Yup05:31
lotusleafsomerville32: I love the xubuntu animated splash with the wheel, how come gnome/kde don't have anything as cute?05:31
elkbuntuhmm, this is different since last time i used xubuntu then... back.. a while05:31
somerville32Dapper changed ALOT05:32
elkbuntui might install xubuntu on teh laptop in teh broken debian partition05:32
somerville32We even have a desktop now!05:32
elkbuntua?05:32
somerville32With desktop icons and stuff05:32
somerville32:D05:32
somerville32And Thunar05:32
somerville32Omg05:32
somerville32Thunar is amazing05:32
elkbuntuthis make sense if all this happened in dapper05:32
somerville32It is like nautalius but so much better05:32
elkbuntui looked at xubuntu back in breezy and gave it the digitus impukidus05:33
somerville32:] 05:33
elkbuntu(may even have been hoary)05:33
somerville32Not hoary05:33
somerville32haha05:33
somerville32Xubuntu didn't exist in hoary05:33
elkbuntuok then, that solves that :)05:33
elkbuntui might have installed xfce though05:34
elkbuntuone never knows with me05:34
=== somerville32 nods.
elkbuntubut yes. i loathed xfce05:34
somerville32Yeah, me too05:34
somerville32I went to #xfce4 and said "How can I have icons on the desktop?"05:34
somerville32and they are like05:34
lotusleafsomerville32: xarchiver rocks05:35
somerville32"You don't WANT icons on the desktop, trust me"05:35
somerville32"Once you get over it, you'll realize how much better it is"05:35
elkbuntuheh... my desktop is just a second home folder, and somewhere that partitions become visible05:37
elkbuntui rarely see it05:37
somerville32:] 05:37
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lotusleafponingru: yo05:39
poningruyarr05:40
=== poningru 's xchat has been screwey
poningruand on top of exams05:40
poningruI hate my life05:40
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poningrutoo much crap :(05:40
poningrubut yes how are you lotusleaf 05:41
lotusleafponingru: I took a moment to disregard my high fructose corn syrup boycott to enjoy an ice cream cone with HFCS, so I'm good AND bad,thanks =)05:41
poningruhehe nice05:42
poningrugood news you can now drink jones soda05:42
lotusleafponingru: yeah, I read that =)05:42
poningru:)05:42
lotusleafponingru: it's cool some ppl are finally waking up to see that, IMO, HFCS = evil05:42
poningruhehe there are eviler things in the world05:43
somerville32jenda: No posters yet! :)05:43
poningrulike certain kinds of fat, cholestrol etc.05:43
lotusleafponingru: yeah but HFCS is in almost everything, it seems05:43
lotusleafponingru: even in ketchup!05:44
poningrutreu05:44
poningrutrue*05:44
lotusleafponingru: somerville32 is inspiring many to try/use xubuntu05:44
lotusleafponingru: you should give it a try ;)05:44
poningruhehe naah05:45
poningrumy friend is putting that on his desktop though05:45
lotusleafcool05:45
poningruhehe yeah he has had nothing but trouble with his ubuntu install on his desktop05:46
poningrubut on his newer laptop...05:46
poningruruns smoother than a babies bottom05:46
=== lotusleaf hopes to win the lottery soon and open an ubuntu powered maid cafe
poningruhahaha05:48
lotusleaf:P05:48
poningruyeah heard about the toronto one05:48
lotusleafyup ;)05:48
lotusleafevery corner needs one, forget $tarbucks05:48
somerville32lotusleaf: That might be feasible because of all the money you'd save from using an open source infrastructure.05:49
lotusleafponingru: boingboing didn't post anything about the roughcut posters, but they did post something about how to turn your urine blue :(05:49
lotusleafsomerville32: very true!05:50
lotusleafsomerville32: I could even have a few maids dressed up for xubuntu and run in wheels in the window05:50
somerville32Very nice! :] 05:50
lotusleafsee? is that solid marketing or what?05:51
somerville32We couldn't ask for a better team :] 05:51
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poningruhehe yeah05:54
lotusleafBHSPitLappy: yo05:55
lotusleafwe were just discussing an ubuntu powered maid cafe05:55
BHSPitLappysup05:55
BHSPitLappyhuh?06:21
BHSPitLappywhat's a maid cafe06:21
lotusleafBHSPitLappy: now that's a question I love to hear06:25
=== BHSPitLappy cowers
lotusleaflol06:25
lotusleafone sec06:25
lotusleafBHSPitLappy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maid_cafe06:27
lotusleaf"Sometimes the maid outfit is augmented with cat or bunny ears to increase their cuteness" :P06:28
BHSPitLappyoh dear06:28
lotusleafone just opened in canada06:29
BHSPitLappylol06:29
lotusleafwhen I win the lottery, the U.S. is next =)06:29
tonyyarussoThat's slightly disturbing06:30
lotusleafand now, the flip view06:30
lotusleaftake it away tonyyarusso06:30
lotusleaf;)06:30
lotusleaf /o/ that's demeaning!06:31
tonyyarussoSomething like that06:31
lotusleafk06:31
lotusleaf=)06:31
tonyyarussoI'd have to know one of the employees to decide whether it bothered me or not06:31
tonyyarussoIn short, _I'd_ feel weird going in one, but hey, it appeals to some people.06:31
lotusleafwell, the states has hooters06:32
lotusleafI say no more =)06:32
lotusleafwhich is worse? a maid cafe or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooters ?06:33
tonyyarussoProbably Hooters.06:34
poningruthey both are06:34
lotusleafponingru: winner!06:34
poningruhehe06:34
lotusleafbut that still won't destroy my plans for an ubuntu powered maid cafe06:34
lotusleaf '._.'06:35
poningruelkbuntu: why did whiprush disapear?06:37
lotusleafponingru: did he get sucked into gaming? :) Last I saw his nick was wii related06:39
poningruoh ouch06:39
poningruthat cant be good06:39
lotusleafbut from the planet ubuntu blogs, I think it had something to do with FOSS politics, or something, or so I guess06:39
lotusleafbut maybe I'm wrong06:40
=== poningru knows plenty of people who dropped out of school because of WoW
lotusleafponingru: he's probably online @ irc.arstechnica.com #linux06:40
elkbuntuwhat lotusleaf said06:40
lotusleafponingru: chat him up06:40
BHSPitLappyway to plan on associating ubuntu with sexual connotation and dirty old men06:40
BHSPitLappyyour marketing endeavors are second to none!06:40
lotusleafBHSPitLappy: that's one way to score points for the feminists :)06:40
elkbuntulotusleaf, he may not even be there, if he's rejecting FOSS06:40
BHSPitLappyLMAO06:40
lotusleafBHSPitLappy: but, just like a number of burlesque performers, they are feminists themselves06:41
BHSPitLappyyeah lotusleaf 06:41
BHSPitLappybecause FEMALES use COMPUTERS06:41
=== elkbuntu stares at BHSPitLappy
BHSPitLappylol06:41
BHSPitLappy</joke>06:41
=== elkbuntu continues to stare at BHSPitLappy
lotusleafBHSPitLappy: ever think that some of these women /enjoy/ their positions of power? Knowing that men groveling before them are the ones who are pitiful?06:41
BHSPitLappyif I stared back, you'd accuse me of something.06:41
poningruyeah he isnt there06:41
elkbuntuponingru, ask if they've heard from him at all06:42
lotusleafelkbuntu: is he *rejecting* FOSS as a whole?06:42
elkbuntulotusleaf, ok, rejecting might be the wrong word06:42
lotusleafelkbuntu: everyone needs time to chill, maybe he's just chillin06:42
BHSPitLappythis fruit is -chill-!06:43
poningruajmitch is in there06:43
poningrunm he is in there under his real name06:46
lotusleafponingru: on the ars technica irc server?06:47
poningruyes06:48
poningrujorge06:48
lotusleafponingru: you stalker you :P06:49
lotusleafponingru: say "jorge, come back into the light!"06:49
elkbuntuponingru, ask him if he's seen Og's blog post06:49
elkbuntuhttp://www.ogmaciel.com/?p=31006:49
poningruhehe yeah I pinged him06:51
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somerville32Burgundavia: Hey08:45
Burgundaviahey somerville3208:45
somerville32Whats the plan for UWN24?08:45
somerville32I got a bit done tonight but alot more needs doing08:45
Burgundaviaright, I am about to head to bed, tired08:45
somerville32me too08:46
elkbuntuaww, i'll take a look at it and try whip people. Burgundavia do you think it can be done by end of tomorrow?08:47
elkbuntu(your tomorrow)08:47
Burgundaviayep, I have tomorrow night free08:47
elkbuntucool08:47
=== elkbuntu huggles Burgundavia and lets him go to bed
Burgundaviasomerville32: nice work, thanks08:51
somerville32Thanks :] 08:53
somerville32Burgundavia: I can do the specification spotlight in about 9 hours08:54
Burgundaviasomerville32: rock10:08
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pschulz01Greetings.. I need some Ubuntu brochures that I can print out... and I would like some 'style' advice.11:17
pschulz01Is ther anyone here that can advise?11:18
elkbuntupossibly11:24
pschulz01elkbuntu: hehe.. the people that you bump into..11:29
elkbuntu;)11:29
pschulz01elkbuntu: I want to create some business cards.. is there a 'style'? or do I just make them similar to the examples?11:29
elkbuntupschulz01, ubuntu business cards?11:30
pschulz01elkbuntu: Yes11:30
elkbuntupschulz01, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards is no help?11:31
pschulz01elkbuntu: It's OK, but can I use a MgOpen Modata as the font.. I've creted them in Inkscape.11:32
elkbuntui guess so. i havent even done any for myself. i should though.11:33
pschulz01elkbuntu: I have also redone the Adobe Illustrator brochure in Inkscape as well,11:33
elkbuntuin what way?11:34
pschulz01..into svg format.11:34
elkbuntuah, sorry, misread the above... i blame the flickery state of this monitor11:35
pschulz01It was a while ago.. there may be more stuff available now. but it said everthing I needed it to say11:35
jendahey there pschulz01 11:35
jendawhat format/purpose/lenght brochures?11:36
pschulz01jenda: Hey :-)11:36
jenda11:36
pschulz01jenda: What is 'Ubuntu' all about..11:37
jendaSurprise :)11:38
jendaand the format and length?11:38
jendaWhere would they be used?11:38
pschulz01jenda: elkbuntu I have to apologise.. I need to go out for 45min but I;ll be back..11:38
jendaok11:38
jendalaters11:38
pschulz01jenda: South Australian parliamentarians.11:38
jendaok11:38
pschulz01Thanks for your patience.11:40
jendaIf it were possible to have one standard Ubuntu brochure that could be used by any loco team that doesn't mind english, I'd vouch for printing it out in bulk to have it done cheaper.12:04
jendaI can do it, if we get a brochure created.12:04
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elkbuntudidnt madpilot have one done up?12:06
jendaelkbuntu: it was just a single-page flyer, iirc.12:07
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pschulz01.. I'm back.12:33
jendawb12:33
jendaI'm on my way out.12:33
elkbuntustill trying to see if there's any existing stuff about12:36
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pschulz01elkbuntu: My brochure is here..  http;//community.mawsonlakes.org/ubuntu12:39
pschulz01Back in a moment..12:41
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pschulz01I'm back..01:01
elkbuntupschulz01, so what about the brochure did you change?01:03
pschulz01elkbuntu: Converted to svg in inkscape..01:07
elkbuntuand that is all?01:07
pschulz01yes..01:07
elkbuntuso what is the issue? you do want to change it more?01:08
pschulz01elkbuntu: No.. issue #1 was using a different font on my business card...01:08
pschulz01(That was the 'style' question.)01:08
elkbuntuyeah, afaik, no prob at all01:09
pschulz01Issue #2 was more of a question.. is there anything different (newer) available? I think what I have dates bank to this time last year.01:09
elkbunture the font, if you really want to clarify, trademarks@ubuntu.com would be the place to ask01:10
elkbuntuissue 2, it's an issue we need to work on01:12
elkbuntufeel free to hang out here if you want to help us with that ;)01:13
pschulz01Ta.. I guess what I really want is a 'free' font.. :-) and developed in our free software.01:16
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danbuch929DIY Marketing site bzr push'd and ftp'd:  http://diy.devubuntu.com02:11
=== danbuch929 erased all traces of <tr>'s and <td>'s :-D .... DOM now happy
danbuch929thanks, MenZa!02:12
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danbuch929MenZa: feedback addressed to your liking?  --> http://diy.devubuntu.com02:14
=== MenZa clicks
MenZaawesome02:15
MenZaand02:15
=== MenZa notes 9999 users
danbuch929indeed ;-D02:22
danbuch929...and yet it's only a fraction of the actual count :-p02:22
danbuch929ah well - off to work go I - criticize away! :-)02:23
MenZa:D02:24
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Madpilotintersting short article on Flickr, Linux & FOSS advocacy: http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/28/162823710:43
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Admiral_ChicagoMadpilot: sweet article11:46

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