[12:16] <sabdfl> any dissenting opinions?
[12:16] <mdz> I'm comfortable with those bullet points
[12:17] <sabdfl> mjg59? Keybuk?
[12:17] <Keybuk> fine by me
[12:17] <mjg59> I'm good
[12:17] <sabdfl> ok. we may get to revisit this in future, if resources are made available. for now i think it is the right decision.
[12:17] <sabdfl> phew
[12:17] <sabdfl> mdz?
[12:18] <siretart> next (and last) agenda item?
[12:18] <mdz> sabdfl: shall I draft the announcement?  "we are pleased to announce that powerpc has been updated to community status!"
[12:18] <Keybuk> siretart: you snuck that in, that's naughty
[12:18] <mdz> Keybuk: he cleared it with me
[12:18] <mdz> about 5 minutes into this meeting
[12:18] <mdz> but perhaps he will have mercy and defer to the next meeting
[12:18] <pitti> whoa, already Friday
[12:18] <pitti> erm, Wednesday
[12:18] <sabdfl> mdz: easy on the spin, it needs to be sincere, not everyone will get the in-jokes
[12:18] <mdz> siretart: would that be OK with you?
[12:19] <Seveas> pitti, it was 3 hours, not 3 days ;)
[12:19] <siretart> mmmh, it would have been nicer if that would have been more clear a few hours earlier
[12:19] <mdz> sabdfl: apparently not everyone gets my jokes even here
[12:19] <siretart> I don't want big discussion about that anyway
[12:19] <pitti> Seveas: just another proof of brainmelt :)
[12:19] <siretart> I'm rather interested in what the problems are
[12:19] <sabdfl> siretart: juris-my-diction crap
[12:19] <sabdfl> anyone, anyone...
[12:19] <siretart> so I suggest I paste my lines and hear 3 minutes of comments about my proposal
[12:20] <sabdfl> siretart we can't possibly do it justice in that time
[12:20] <sabdfl> it's a minefield
[12:20] <pitti> what's the topic again?
[12:20] <sabdfl> <jedi wave>
[12:20] <ogra> pitti, patents
[12:20] <lifeless> #
[12:20] <lifeless> Inclusion of packages in main with potential patent issues - ReinhardTartler
[12:20] <sabdfl> there are no patent issues in linux
[12:20] <siretart> it is a question about policy rather
[12:20] <sabdfl> </jedi wave>
[12:20] <siretart> I wanted to ask what the current policy regarding potentially patented packages for ubuntu main is.
[12:20] <siretart> Please note that we have a lot of packages, which are indeed patented, but not actively enforced. We seem to have no problem with that. However, there is big uncertainity when it comes to multimedia packages.
[12:20] <siretart> I'm asking about multimedia packages like ffmpeg. While they are DFSG free and in debian main, this package has recently been demoted from main to universe in breezy.
[12:20] <mjg59> Aren't we broadly aligned with Debian here?
[12:20] <mdz> summary: there exist free software programs that aren't appropriate for Ubuntu to include because of potential litigious issues
[12:21] <siretart> I have some plans with xine. in detail, I want to undo the split of the source package that was done in the xine package. I want to arrange means by splitting the unified source package in seperate binary packages, so that no mp3 decoder needs to be in the ship seed (and therefore on the desktop cd)
[12:21] <pitti>     libmad | 0.15.1b-2.1 | http://de.archive.ubuntu.com feisty/main Sources
[12:21] <siretart> But I wanted to ask on what to look after while preparing my request.
[12:21] <siretart> so in fact, my question is if there are patent problems with ffmpeg having in main
[12:21] <siretart> that's basically all
[12:21] <Keybuk> siretart: ffmpeg is the subject of patents being actively enforced
[12:21] <Keybuk> which is why it's not in main
[12:21] <siretart> Keybuk: and why does it exist in debian/main then?
[12:21] <siretart> sorry, I don't get it at all
[12:21] <mjg59> In that we'll ship anything if we don't think there's a realistic chance of us or our users being sued
[12:21] <Keybuk> because debian don't usually discriminate based on patents
[12:21] <sabdfl> siretart: it's quite possible there are inconsistencies
[12:22] <mjg59> Debian may have different ideas about how realistic a threat is
[12:22] <siretart> Keybuk: which patents? the mp3 encoding patent? that is already disabled
[12:22] <mdz> in some cases the issues are entirely unclear, in some they are just clear enough that some concern is justified (and we shouldn't ship them), and in others they are clear as a heart attack
[12:22] <mjg59> I was under the impression that our patent position had always been clear - if that's not the case, then we should clarify that
[12:22] <mjg59> But otherwise, it's a package by package issue
[12:22] <siretart> Keybuk: even in debian (and we ship a very similar package)
[12:23] <mjg59> A package's position in Debian is indicative, but doesn't define our approach to the same package
[12:23] <siretart> mjg59: to me the patent position is very unclear to me. espc. the differences to debian's policy
[12:23] <mjg59> siretart: There are no differences to Debian's policy.
[12:23] <siretart> and the fact that we had ffmpeg in main for hoary
[12:23] <Keybuk> we don't ship anything in main if we believe there's a reasonable chance either we, or our users, would get sued
[12:23] <mjg59> But even with the same policy, we can reach different outcomes.
[12:23] <sabdfl> by and large, if there is a clear patent problem with free code, we make the code availabel via network repository for people to whom the patent issue does not apply
[12:23] <siretart> mjg59: in this case, I conclude that there wouldn't be any problems with ffmpeg in main
[12:24] <siretart> mjg59: but there seems to be be problems. you see why I'm highly confused?
[12:24] <mjg59> siretart: If you have issues with a specific package, then write a main inclusion report sufficiently good to counter any arguments over patents
[12:24] <sabdfl> if the patent is not enforced, or not applicable in most jurisdictions, then we've shipped code in the past
[12:24] <mjg59> siretart: If there are no actively enforced patents covering our ffmpeg package, it can go in main.
[12:24] <mdz> siretart: shipping questionable software to countries which enforce that sort of thing is widely considered to be a bad idea
[12:24] <siretart> mjg59: I wanted to have this cleared before I start to write an inclusion request. espc for the highly disputed package ffmpeg
[12:25] <mjg59> But just as us having a package in main doesn't mean that Debian will, a package's location in Debian may not match ours
[12:25] <mdz> we are in a very different position than Debian where potential litigation is concerned
[12:25] <pitti> mdz: 'shipping' applies to 'put on CD', I figure?
[12:25] <sabdfl> main is different to ship
[12:25] <mdz> pitti: or, *cough* DVD
[12:25] <mjg59> I don't think there's anything else the TB can say in this respect
[12:25] <siretart> mdz: the thing is that to the research of the debian maintainer, there are no patents known to be enforced, which would be applicable to the ffmpeg package
[12:25] <siretart> TTBOMK, at least
[12:25] <mdz> sabdfl: not by much
[12:25] <sabdfl> yeah, forgot about the DVD
[12:25] <pitti> mdz: we don't press DVDs?
[12:26] <sabdfl> give me 5 minutes, i'll have forgotten about it again and be happy :-)
[12:26] <siretart> the thing is this: I want either ffmpeg in main, or xine being demoted
[12:26] <Mithrandir> pitti: amazon sells Ubuntu DVDs.
[12:26] <mdz> I am legally protected from participating in this conversation in this country
[12:26] <mjg59> siretart: That's not a TB decision
[12:26] <siretart> the problem with the demotion is, that the kubuntu and xubuntu folks would be very pissed
[12:26] <lifeless> mdz: protected ?
[12:26] <siretart> because they rely heavily on libxine
[12:26] <mdz> lifeless: protected.
[12:27] <lifeless> wow
[12:27] <mjg59> Or, rather, it's not a TB decision as framed in the current topic
[12:27] <siretart> mjg59: well, since it affects both xubuntu and kubuntu, why isn't this a TB topic?
[12:27] <mjg59> siretart: Because you said you were going to talk about patents
[12:27] <siretart> mjg59: yes. with the goal to save much PITA regarding xine packaging
[12:27] <mjg59> I believe that our patent policy is clear, and that we've made it clear how you should proceed on this issue.
[12:28] <siretart> mjg59: okay. I will continue with an main report, and refer to logs to this discussion
[12:29] <siretart> mjg59: I still suggest that we have a wiki page with some patent policy statement
[12:29] <mjg59> Now, today and yesterday combined mean that I've spent over 6 hours in Ubuntu meetings this week, and so I propose that I now go and find a drink :)
[12:29] <Mithrandir> in the entirely hypotetical situation that an archive admin is unsure about whether something is actually suitable for main, should he bring it up for the tech board then?
[12:29] <mjg59> Mithrandir: It sounds more like a legal decision than a technical one...
[12:30] <mdz> mjg59: I'm buying
[12:30] <Mithrandir> I'd not like to be the one promoting ffmpeg if it ends up causing Canonical to be sued.
[12:30] <mdz> unfortunately for you, cocktail hour is still several hours and several thousand miles away
[12:30] <mc44> "not actively enforced" would seem to be a very legal quesion
[12:30] <siretart> does it really matter in what directory in the archive we ship it?
[12:30] <sabdfl> if a company claims to have a patent, they are welcome to approach us to discuss it
[12:31] <sabdfl> so far, AFAIK that has never happened
[12:31] <sabdfl> thanks all
[12:31] <mjg59> siretart: To our users? Yes.
[12:31] <Keybuk> siretart: yes, in most legal juristictions it makes a big difference whether we send it on CD, or a user chooses to download it
[12:31] <sabdfl> wow
[12:31] <siretart> mjg59: this is a legal discussion
[12:31] <sabdfl> three hours, 5 new developers, 1 patent policy, one less architecture
[12:31] <sabdfl> that was fun :-)
[12:31] <siretart> Keybuk: I plan to arrange that ffmpeg does NOT need to be on the cd
[12:31] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: do we have a legal consel we can talk to or should the ubuntu-archive team members not care about this problem until we're approached?
[12:31] <siretart> Keybuk: I want it just in main, not on the live cd
[12:31] <Keybuk> sabdfl: closer to four hours now ;)
[12:31] <siretart> Keybuk: I need it as build dependency for xine
[12:32] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: use reasonable discretion, don't panic, don't ship DeCSS
[12:32] <mdz> seeking legal counsel for archive changes is not a reasonable approach for us
[12:32] <Keybuk> siretart: as mjg59 says, file a MIR
[12:32] <sabdfl> there's always OIN
[12:32] <sabdfl> btw, folks we just asked to join FFII
[12:32] <mdz> DeCSS is an entirely separate issue (copyright circumvention), no?
[12:32] <elmo> mdz: yes
[12:32] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: and in the cases we're not sure?  I'm not talking about the obvious cases, they're not very interesting.
[12:32] <Keybuk> sabdfl: ironically, Mithrandir can ship DeCSS :)  he's in Norway
[12:32] <sabdfl> formally funding the fight against software patents in europe
[12:33] <mc44> sabdfl: that doesnt work for mp3 patent holders though :)
[12:33] <sabdfl> an announcement will come soon
[12:33] <elmo> Keybuk: he can't ship it on OUR servers
[12:33] <siretart> Keybuk: I interpret this as "the tb does not see principal or legal problems with having ffmpeg in main". that is the answer I wanted to hear
[12:33] <Keybuk> siretart: the TB has clarified our patent policy, and has no opinion either way on ffmpeg
[12:33] <Keybuk> we haven't investigated it
[12:33] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: it's up to someone to enforce their patents
[12:33] <Mithrandir> sabdfl: I'll be happy to take this to email since everybody is tired of the meeting now.
[12:33] <sabdfl> that's the law, i believe
[12:34] <ogra> Mithrandir++++
[12:34] <siretart> ok. let's end this.
[12:34] <sabdfl> thanks everyone, very good meeting
[12:34] <siretart> gn8 everyone
[12:34] <pitti> siretart: thanks for bringing this up
[12:34] <sabdfl> i'll be happy when we have the MC in place to deal with approvals
[12:34] <sabdfl> it's fun to talk through the policy stuff though
[12:34] <sabdfl> night / afternoon / morning all
[12:34] <pitti> thanks everyone
[12:34] <mdz> we'll have more time to spend arguing about this sort of thing
[12:34] <mdz> thanks all
[12:34] <ogra> thanks and night ...
[01:39] <fernando> lla ih
[01:40] <tonyyarusso> ...niaga toN
[01:41] <fernando> hehehe
[12:41] <highvoltage> @schedule
[12:41] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 06 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 22:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 15:00: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 12 Dec 16:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 12:00: Edubuntu
[03:24] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[03:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 06 Dec 14:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Dec 16:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 09:00: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 12 Dec 10:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 06:00: Edubuntu
[03:59] <freeflying_> @schedule Shanghai
[03:59] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 07 Dec 04:00: Edubuntu | 07 Dec 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 Dec 06:00: Kubuntu | 12 Dec 23:00: Loco Team in #ubuntu-meeting | 13 Dec 00:00: Community Council | 13 Dec 20:00: Edubuntu
[08:56] <cbx33> Hi AliasVegas_
[08:56] <AliasVegas_> Hi all! :)
[08:56] <highvoltage> hi AliasVegas!
[08:57] <AliasVegas_> ^_^
[08:57] <tsmithe> wie geht's?
[08:57] <nixternal> well hello there everyone
[08:57] <tsmithe> tag
[08:57] <cbx33> Wir ist Gut Ja?
[08:57] <highvoltage> hello to you too mr nixternal
[08:57] <tsmithe> ja!
[08:57] <cbx33> hey nixternal
[08:57] <tsmithe> wir *sind*
[08:57] <tsmithe> :D
[08:57] <cbx33> ah yes
[08:57] <cbx33> meine German is nicht so gut
[08:58] <tsmithe> ah well
[08:58] <tsmithe> let's try french
[08:58] <tsmithe> ca va?
[08:58] <highvoltage> wii!
[08:58] <cbx33> Tre Bien Merci
[08:58] <cbx33> Tres
[08:58] <highvoltage> merci kubuntu
[08:58] <nixternal> i was raised on english and i can't even speak/read/nor write it worth a darn, and you want to change up and speak something different ;)
[08:59] <tsmithe> ah well
[08:59] <tsmithe> please don't forward me to #ubuntu-fr or -de :)
[08:59] <tsmithe> i'm not *that* good
[09:00] <ogra> evening everybody
[09:00] <LaserJock> nixternal: yeah, it's an American thing ;-)
[09:00] <highvoltage> good evening ogra
[09:00] <highvoltage> and LaserJock :)
[09:00] <nixternal> hehe
[09:00] <ogra> RichEd is apparently at a business appointment, so he wont be here ...
[09:00] <cbx33> :(
[09:01] <ogra> and i thik willvdl is with him
[09:01] <ogra> so lets have a short tech update ...
[09:01] <highvoltage> I'll probably be here for just 30minutes or so, been awake since 5 this morning and it's 22:01 atm here
[09:01] <ogra> herd1 was released today
[09:01] <cbx33> :D
[09:02] <ogra> took me a bit of effort since i just returned last monday but seems it worked out well
[09:02] <ogra> i'm currently preparing a split of the edubuntu-artwork package into edubutu-artwork and edubuntu-default-settings
[09:03] <cbx33> nice one ogra you rock dude
[09:03] <highvoltage> good call imo
[09:03] <cbx33> indeed
[09:03] <LaserJock> excellent
[09:03] <ogra> additionally i'll move edubuntu-docs to main, if the doc writers are confident we'll have something for the release
[09:03] <LaserJock> heh, is this an EC meeting?
[09:03] <LaserJock> *heah
[09:03] <cbx33> heah?
[09:03] <ogra> hmm, right, first meeting ...
[09:03] <cbx33> :p
[09:04] <LaserJock> cbx33: it's hard to spell sounds right
[09:04] <LaserJock> :p
[09:04] <cbx33> okie dokie ;)
[09:04] <ogra> ltsp was merged with the debian branch today, that gives us encrypted swap and dropped the printer support (there is no proper license for the print server apparently)
[09:05] <ogra> i started a new project called jetpipe
[09:05] <ogra> its a very simple python script that forwards all traffic from a certain port to a printer device
[09:05] <ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/people/ogra/+branch/ltsp/feisty-ltsp-jetpipe is the bzr branch
[09:05] <ogra> its basically working, but will need many hands to help out with one or the other python stanza
[09:06] <LaserJock> cool
[09:06] <cbx33> ogra, cool
[09:06] <cbx33> just tell me what you need dude
[09:06] <ogra> so all devs around, please have a look at revision 456 to 457, its basically the complete code (50 lines)
[09:06] <cbx33> wow
[09:06] <ogra> there is a TODO at the top
[09:07] <rockprincess> hello everyone!
[09:07] <ogra> it would be odd if we had to release feisty ltsp without printer support ...
[09:07] <ogra> hey rockprincess
[09:07] <rockprincess> i've heard an edubuntu meeting takes place here?
[09:07] <cbx33> indeed
[09:07] <rockprincess> hello ogra!
[09:07] <cbx33> rockprincess, indeed it does
[09:07] <highvoltage> hi rockprincess
[09:07] <rockprincess> hello cbx33
[09:07] <rockprincess> hi highvoltage
[09:07] <ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda has the meeting agenda
[09:07] <rockprincess> i've some news regarding my edubuntu project
[09:07] <ogra> we're still at the tech part
[09:07] <rockprincess> oh i see, then i don't wanna bother you!
[09:08] <ogra> cbx33, we'll need to talk about the new SCP :)
[09:08] <cbx33> ogra, I was waiting for that ;)
[09:08] <ogra> lets do that during the next days
[09:08] <cbx33> fantastic
[09:08] <ogra> and go through the topics :)
[09:08] <cbx33> ok
[09:08] <cbx33> can we set a meeting date ?
[09:09] <ogra> suggest one :)
[09:09] <cbx33> ok
[09:09] <cbx33> ogra, tomorrow evening?
[09:09] <ogra> thats fine
[09:09] <ogra> what time ? (UTC)
[09:10] <cbx33> same time as now
[09:10] <cbx33> 20:00 UTC
[09:10] <ogra> oki, 20:00 UTC then
[09:10] <cbx33> exshellent
[09:10] <ogra> apart from that, ltsp-managers new design is slowly evolving in my head :) and i got the lts.conf parser done
[09:10] <cbx33> oooh excellent
[09:11] <ogra> i havent talked to moquist yet about the smbldap status, he was working with upstream for the gui
[09:11] <LaserJock> ogra: subscribe to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-menus-completion
[09:11] <ogra> LaserJock, how is the status of that one ?
[09:11] <cbx33> the new SCP is gonna rock so much
[09:11] <cbx33> though it's not called that now is it
[09:11] <ogra> do you think it will be ready for main for feisty ?
[09:11] <LaserJock> ogra: pending approval on the spec
[09:12] <LaserJock> and most likely
[09:12] <ogra> right, its called thin-client-manager
[09:12] <ogra> LaserJock, cool
[09:12] <ogra> dont forget the two CD spec will get us a lot of extra work ...
[09:12] <cbx33> yes
[09:12] <ogra> (i still have no idea how to split)
[09:12] <LaserJock> I might need a little help on a pygtk GUI from you or Pete
[09:12] <cbx33> sure np
[09:12] <LaserJock> yeah, I wanted to talk a little about that
[09:12] <ogra> i'd like to stay the liveCD as is for example
[09:12] <cbx33> +1
[09:13] <ogra> but i'm not sure our infrastructure supports that
[09:13] <cbx33> hmm
[09:13] <cbx33> in what way
[09:13] <ogra> the install CD will likel loose a lo of the educational apps
[09:13] <ogra> *likely
[09:13] <ogra> i.e. gcompris and kdeedu will have to go
[09:13] <LaserJock> can you just manipulate the live seed?
[09:13] <cbx33> so are we basically becomming the ubuntu live cd?
[09:13] <highvoltage> gcompris is a big loss :/
[09:13] <cbx33> and the add on?
[09:13] <ogra> i will try to
[09:14] <ogra> no, the liveCd should stay as is, as i said before
[09:14] <cbx33> right ok
[09:14] <ogra> i'm talkig about the install CD
[09:14] <ogra> dropping gcompris and kdeedu will give us ~150-200MB ... we could ship a ton of languages with that
[09:15] <cbx33> ah
[09:15] <LaserJock> the 2nd CD would apply to both, but some items should also be on the LiveCD by default, right?
[09:15] <ogra> the second CD will hook into gnome-app-install and start that if you put it in the tray
[09:15] <LaserJock> right
[09:15] <cbx33> ok cool
[09:15] <ogra> it will offer three meta tasks for three age groups
[09:16] <ogra> ok, thats about it ... any questions about the tech report ?
[09:16] <LaserJock> I noticed that synaptic handles tasks in Feisty
[09:16] <highvoltage> do you have an idea how much space would be available still on the 2nd cd?
[09:17] <cbx33> are we planning to expand this in the future to have cds for subjects
[09:17] <ogra> a lot i hope :)
[09:17] <cbx33> like a history cd etC?
[09:17] <LaserJock> uggg, I hope not
[09:17] <ogra> if we have enough spare space i'll throw the open CD on it
[09:17] <cbx33> did we come to a decision about wikipedia content?
[09:18] <LaserJock> well, so I was going to put together a list of metapackages, etc. for the second CD
[09:18] <ogra> its a prepared thing we have lying around anyway, and we should show that edubuntu is good for mixed environments
[09:18] <LaserJock> but I wanted a little discussion
[09:19] <LaserJock> I was thinking a few major apps that are suitable for educational use for each discipline
[09:19] <ogra> that sounds like it would take quite some time, should we do it via mailing list ?
[09:19] <cbx33> sounds like a good idea
[09:19] <ogra> or do you want to go over them now ?
[09:19] <LaserJock> no, email is good
[09:20] <LaserJock> but I would like to know roughly what we are looking for
[09:20] <LaserJock> Science is pretty easy really
[09:20] <LaserJock> lots of apps and I'm pretty familar with them
[09:21] <ogra> right
[09:21] <LaserJock> but other disciplines aren't as well represented in the repos I don't think
[09:21] <ogra> in the other realm we have a lot of duplicates and should see that we get some input ...
[09:21] <ogra> i.e. look at all the different star simulations
[09:21] <LaserJock> true, but it's a bit easier for me to spot those
[09:22] <LaserJock> we also have to consider security and maintainence if these go into Main
[09:22] <ogra> right
[09:22] <ogra> wel, with security i rely on the security team for now ...
[09:22] <LaserJock> anyway, I was just going to shoot for like maybe up to 5 apps for each discipline
[09:23] <ogra> but maintanance is surely an issue
[09:23] <ogra> we need enough main devs
[09:23] <LaserJock> yes
[09:23] <ogra> that sounds sane for a beginning
[09:23] <ajmitch> LaserJock: when are you going for core-dev?
[09:23] <LaserJock> so I didn't want to go overboard
[09:23] <LaserJock> ajmitch: maybe next TB
[09:23] <ajmitch> ok
[09:23] <LaserJock> I just wanted to let the dust settle after the first TB in a while
[09:24] <ogra> ok
[09:24] <cbx33> ahhh....my dreams of core-edv ;)
[09:24] <ogra> any other quesions or should we move on ? cbx33 had a topic we postponed last time
[09:25] <ogra> (btw please add your topics at the bottom on the agenda)
[09:25] <LaserJock> nah, I'll try to put an initial list together an send it to edubuntu-devel
[09:25] <ogra> great
[09:25] <ogra> cbx33, so you would like a TB for edubuntu
[09:26] <cbx33> I was thinking so yes
[09:26] <cbx33> nothing big
[09:26] <cbx33> but as a way to help drive/manage and enhance development for edubuntu
[09:26] <highvoltage> interesting
[09:26] <cbx33> Personally, I know ogra does ...well practically all edubuntu dev organising.....and
[09:27] <cbx33> well I wanted to offer a way to try to reduce his load
[09:27] <cbx33> and farm it off to a few others too
[09:27] <cbx33> to free up his time for other concerns
[09:27] <highvoltage> cbx33: it might also help RichEd's drive to reproduce more ogra's
[09:27] <ogra> copy/paste from last meeting: ogra	he (cbx33) thinks we should ahve a more democratic approach for leading development ...
[09:27] <cbx33> indeed
[09:27] <ogra> ogra	while i agree i think its a bit early for that
[09:27] <ogra> ogra	we dont have many devs yet, so there is no real benefit in managing teams etc
[09:27] <cbx33> ogra, yes, though it's not as politcal as taht
[09:27] <ogra> ogra	the team is only a handfull ...
[09:28] <ogra> ogra	apart from that i think we will need such a structure at some point ...
[09:28] <ogra> ogra	but currently it looks to me that it would generate useless extra work with more meetings etc without weighting out the benefit we'll have from it
[09:28] <ogra> ogra	apart from that we discuss thech issues in the meeting here and now, that should be enough until we have a crowd of devs that becomes hard to manage ...
[09:28] <ogra> so thats what i said last week about the topic ..
[09:28] <cbx33> I was just thinking it was worth thinking/initial planning now - to aid the future - maybe if there is a clear team managing it, people will find it easier to get involved?
[09:29] <cbx33> and have more hands available to answer techish questions
[09:29] <ogra> well, we should be pen anyway ... no matter how the governance works ...
[09:29] <cbx33> whilst I am no way even close to knowing all that ogra does.....I could still help out some people
[09:29] <ogra> *open
[09:29] <LaserJock> well, I personally think it wouldn't hurt for the Edubuntu Council to also handle technical aspects. the EC only does edubuntu membership approval right now
[09:29] <cbx33> so they don't keep bugging ;)
[09:30] <ogra> LaserJock, right
[09:30] <cbx33> LaserJock, interesting idea ;)
[09:30] <LaserJock> I  don't particularly see the need for a whole nother set of people
[09:30] <LaserJock> as we would have more people on boards then people to do the work
[09:30] <ogra> well, there will be a need for it at some point
[09:30] <highvoltage> it would probably be more or less the same list as the edubuntu members list anyway :)
[09:30] <ogra> we gather more devs
[09:30] <highvoltage> ogra: does it look like more will be hired any time soon?
[09:30] <LaserJock> once the need grows we could split off a technical board we could do so
[09:30] <ogra> i mean, look at #edubuntu, there are constantly over 40 ppl in there now
[09:31] <cbx33> I'm hoping that these people, be they EC, or whatever, could hopefully learn from ogra to be able to help him out morei n the future
[09:31] <highvoltage> ogra: and is rodarvus still as heavily involved in edubuntu specifics as originally planned?
[09:31] <ogra> highvoltage, if we get someone who pays for it, yes
[09:31] <highvoltage> ah ok.
[09:31] <ogra> rodarvus, is very busy with X
[09:31] <LaserJock> I think cbx33 has a definate point about needing development organization and management
[09:31] <ogra> and i dont know the status of the OLPC efforts
[09:32] <LaserJock> the spec process is good for higher level and complicated stuff
[09:32] <ogra> so lets try the EC approach
[09:32] <LaserJock> but I think we might be able to get more devs interested if we have smaller, bite-sized tasks for people todo
[09:32] <cbx33> LaserJock, +1
[09:32] <cbx33> as was the original intention
[09:32] <ogra> right, a wikipage with a list and points of contact would be goodd
[09:32] <LaserJock> I was thinking of once we have a list of apps to go on the 2nd CD we could let people work on the MIRs a little
[09:33] <cbx33> good idea
[09:33] <ogra> that wopuld be awesome
[09:33] <LaserJock> it's easy because it's just a wiki page
[09:33] <cbx33> I've done MIR's before
[09:33] <ogra> it will steal half of my development time to write them
[09:33] <cbx33> so I'll try to help out there
[09:33] <ogra> one big taks i have on my list since poland is to get moodle suitable for main
[09:34] <ogra> which nearly means repackaging
[09:34] <cbx33> excellent
[09:34] <ogra> well, not really, i'm not thrilled
[09:34] <LaserJock> heh
[09:34] <ogra> but its the best web app we have currently
[09:34] <cbx33> well.....no, but a VLE is needed
[09:34] <LaserJock> excellent for Edubunt users
[09:34] <ogra> and its a requirement for the edulinux stuff
[09:34] <LaserJock> not so great for the poor dev who has to do it :/
[09:34] <ogra> right
[09:35] <ogra> wwwconfig-common is a bad beast i'd like to avoid to touch
[09:35] <cbx33> heheh
[09:35] <ogra> anyway
[09:35] <LaserJock> ogra: ok, well maybe if you could think of some smaller things for community devs to do (like MIRs, a little python coding, etc.) we can put it on a wiki page
[09:35] <LaserJock> and free you up a little
[09:36] <ogra> right, lets do that for a start
[09:36] <cbx33> go people go
[09:36] <LaserJock> \o/
[09:36] <cbx33> maybe then post a mail to the list
[09:36] <ogra> yeah
[09:36] <cbx33> encouraging people to get involved
[09:36] <cbx33> maybe post a small summary of tasks
[09:36] <LaserJock> and I'll blog it ;-)
[09:36] <cbx33> go the whole hog LaserJock
[09:36] <ogra> btw, did anybody see my last entry ?
[09:37] <cbx33> yes
[09:37] <LaserJock> I think so
[09:37] <ogra> in the printed version of the german linux-user we have four pages
[09:37] <cbx33> wow
[09:37] <ogra> its on the title even :)
[09:37] <LaserJock> nice
[09:37] <cbx33> I couldn't understand it
[09:37] <rodarvus> highvoltage: I was officially loaned to maintain X.Org during feisty development cycle. This loan will (hopefully :) ) end when feisty is released, or possibly even earlier, if we find another maintainer for X
[09:37] <LaserJock> rodarvus: good news, we want you back
[09:37] <ogra> cbx33, it was a major praise ...
[09:37] <cbx33> excellent
[09:38] <cbx33> any mention of SCP :)
[09:38] <rodarvus> LaserJock: yeah, I want to be back too :)
[09:38] <LaserJock> ogra: congrats
[09:38] <ogra> actually saying edubuntu is the only serious educational distro :)
[09:38] <cbx33> cool
[09:38] <cbx33> we rock
[09:38] <ogra> even i had to smile a lot about the assumptions and its a bit to positive, its a nice review
[09:38] <LaserJock> and let's make Feisty rock harder ;-)
[09:38] <ogra> yeah
[09:38] <cbx33> totally
[09:38] <cbx33> woo woo woo
[09:38] <cbx33> sorry got over excited ;)
[09:38] <ogra> oki, lets move on
[09:39] <ogra> tech documentation anyone ?
[09:39] <ogra> i havent seen sbalneav for qute some time
[09:39] <nixternal> new handbook design
[09:39] <cbx33> nice
[09:39] <nixternal> well, not new, but following the Ubuntu/Kubuntu Desktop Guide layout
[09:39] <ogra> well, do we have content ?  :)
[09:39] <nixternal> yes there is content, and yes we need a heck of a lot more
[09:40] <ogra> yeah
[09:40] <nixternal> i have it building and validating
[09:40] <nixternal> so that is a plus
[09:40] <cbx33> sorry nixternal I'll get mine finished up later
[09:40] <ogra> i would like to really have somthing in the feisty release, now that we have space
[09:40] <nixternal> the reason i changed the layout was in case everything doc wise and help wise goes topic based
[09:40] <nixternal> then it will be an easy convert for the handbook as well
[09:40] <ogra> did you keep the nice red css ?
[09:40] <nixternal> im sure we will have some feisty'ness
[09:41] <nixternal> yes, css is staying the same
[09:41] <ogra> good
[09:41] <nixternal> layout will get cleaner as i go
[09:41] <cbx33> good good
[09:41] <ogra> i'll have t add more content to the ltsp dev handbook i planned, but i'm not sure i'll find the time for writing
[09:41] <nixternal> actually, the needed content is the easy stuff, and just a little more ltsp content
[09:41] <LaserJock> nixternal: maybe you should produce a nice PDF or HTML format version and blog it asking for volunteers?
[09:42] <nixternal> i can do that LaserJock
[09:42] <nixternal> doc.ubuntu.com builds it already, sot here is the html
[09:42] <nixternal> i think it builds it, i will have to double check that
[09:42] <LaserJock> ok, good
[09:42] <ogra> thin-client-configurator (ltsp-manager) should make a lot of ltsp documentation obsolete i hope
[09:42] <nixternal> i know it did in the past
[09:42] <nixternal> ogra: awesome, because there is a lot of ltsp documentation
[09:43] <LaserJock> nixternal: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/
[09:43] <ogra> right, but only for ltsp 4.2
[09:43] <nixternal> ya, that is the old build there LaserJock
[09:43] <ogra> i know sbalneav is switching everything, but its still a lot ...
[09:43] <nixternal> the new one has <xincludes> instead of entity linking
[09:43] <LaserJock> nixternal: ok, poke mdke about it
[09:43] <nixternal> i got it. i just need to add it to the new makefile
[09:44] <LaserJock> k
[09:44] <ogra> oki, thats it with tech docs ?
[09:44] <nixternal> trunk must have been branched prior to me editing the edgy makefile
[09:44] <nixternal> all i have ogra
[09:44] <ogra> oki
[09:44] <ogra> ARTWORK !!
[09:45] <ogra> AliasVegas_, cbx33 ??
[09:45] <cbx33> hi
[09:45] <AliasVegas_> yup
[09:45] <cbx33> Right....
[09:45] <ogra> any ideas for feisty already ?
[09:45] <cbx33> well we need really to gather ideas/feedback on the old artwork
[09:46] <ogra> or ideas for team building ? :)
[09:46] <cbx33> indeed
[09:46] <cbx33> That is the other big problem
[09:46] <cbx33> no one seemes to want to help
[09:46] <ogra> well, be a bit more noisy ...
[09:46] <LaserJock> even the Ubuntu/Kubuntu people?
[09:46] <ogra> blog it, mail ubuntu-art
[09:46] <cbx33> I was wondering if we, as well as having our main wallpapers, what about having a community competition?
[09:47] <cbx33> where kids can submit artwork?
[09:47] <ogra> sure
[09:47] <ogra> art.ubuntu.com should be the place
[09:47] <cbx33> okie
[09:47] <cbx33> I will blog about it
[09:48] <AliasVegas_> we have mailed the ubuntu/kubuntu mailing list a couple of times
[09:48] <AliasVegas_> but they didn't give much response
[09:48] <cbx33> indeed
[09:48] <ogra> hmm, right ...
[09:48] <cbx33> I was a little suprised
[09:48] <cbx33> so....a big call for all artists
[09:48] <ogra> yeah
[09:49] <cbx33> we will blog/mail/shout
[09:49] <LaserJock> probably with some direction in mind
[09:49] <ogra> EDUBUNTU NEEDS YOU !
[09:49] <cbx33> we're working on our mailing strategy
[09:49] <cbx33> that's why I wanted to collect feedback
[09:49] <cbx33> so any feedback from here?
[09:49] <cbx33> before I open it up to the world?
[09:49] <ajmitch> ogra: I don't think you'd want any artwork of mine
[09:50] <LaserJock> I thought the Edgy artwork was nice, it was too saturated at first
[09:50] <ogra> the general feedback i got was "way to orange" oh, the "dutch release" and "thats a bit to saturated"
[09:50] <LaserJock> however, it didn't go with the glossy thing that Ubuntu/Kubuntu did
[09:50] <ogra> i personally like the current theme
[09:50] <ogra> (still using it everywhere here)
[09:50] <LaserJock> haha, the dutch release
[09:50] <LaserJock> I love it
[09:50] <cbx33> :S
[09:51] <ogra> even though i have ot admit i agree about the saturation wrt usplash
[09:51] <cbx33> heh
[09:51] <cbx33> sorry my fault there ;)
[09:51] <ogra> and it has many probs on ppc and amd63
[09:51] <cbx33> I took the work AliasVegas_ had done
[09:51] <ogra> (amd64 as well :P )
[09:51] <cbx33> wow amd63 ;)
[09:51] <cbx33> but that's in general surely
[09:51] <cbx33> not just us?
[09:52] <ogra> well, right, but ppc has specific probs with our colorfullness it seems
[09:52] <cbx33> oh
[09:52] <ogra> ubuntu and kubuntu seem to be fine there
[09:52] <cbx33> oh dear
[09:52] <cbx33> so ogra putting you on the spot specifically...whre would you like to see the artwork moving in the next release?
[09:53] <ogra> stay as consistent all over the place as it is now ...
[09:53] <ogra> look more mature all over
[09:53] <cbx33> ok
[09:53] <ogra> (dont forget we want to reflect our growth in the artwork ;) )
[09:53] <cbx33> I know
[09:53] <cbx33> we have a few ideas
[09:54] <ogra> great !
[09:54] <cbx33> but really want to get some community inolvement in here
[09:54] <ogra> yeah, we'll need that
[09:54] <cbx33> do we have any connections with any institutions using edubuntu
[09:54] <cbx33> can we call on them to see if anyone is interested in art
[09:54] <cbx33> I mean, it's not as techie as other dev stuff
[09:54] <LaserJock> to be honest people are much better at giving feedback then on creating something from scratch
[09:54] <ogra> we'll have them in the near future, yes
[09:54] <cbx33> they don't need bzr or anything like that
[09:55] <cbx33> just send in a picture
[09:55] <cbx33> ;)
[09:55] <ogra> under the right license !
[09:55] <LaserJock> so having a wiki page full of "ideas" and letting people comment is generally good
[09:56] <cbx33> LaserJock, hmm....well...yes
[09:56] <cbx33> we had 3 comments on the last one
[09:56] <cbx33> all we can say is....we will shout
[09:56] <LaserJock> I don't think it was really put out there though
[09:56] <cbx33> shout shout
[09:56] <ogra> if its linked from the EdubuntuTODO page it should get more attention ;)
[09:56] <cbx33> ok
[09:56] <LaserJock> yes
[09:56] <LaserJock> and blogged
[09:56] <cbx33> we'll do that
[09:56] <ogra> yeah
[09:56] <LaserJock> and given to the Ubuntu art team
[09:56] <cbx33> and please people talk to others
[09:57] <cbx33> We'll try to draw up some mails/blogs by the end of the week
[09:57] <ogra> ok, thats it with art for now i guess ...
[09:58] <ogra> RichEd isnt here, i dnot know the community status
[09:58] <ogra> pips1 isnt here to give a website status ...
[09:58] <ogra> any other stuff we didnt cover yet ?
[09:59] <cbx33> hmm
[09:59] <cbx33> I wanted to say a little piece here if I may
[09:59] <ogra> sure
[10:00] <cbx33> Today I was voted as chair of the southern technical ICT panel in Southampton UK....which is great....in a way
[10:00] <cbx33> what was not great at all was at the very mention of "open source" without even mentioning linux or anything else, I got eveils rom at least 2 people in the room
[10:01] <cbx33> which is just showing that people are gearing up their distrust for OS in my sector of the world
[10:01] <cbx33> one guy basically said the only good thing about OS was that it kept MS on it's toes
[10:02] <cbx33> so I'm organising FLOSSMeet 07
[10:02] <cbx33> so that schools can come and see open source stuff being used
[10:02] <cbx33> live demos of things like censornet, edubuntu, open office, etc
[10:02] <cbx33> I'm hoping to spark off more interest
[10:02] <cbx33> and I'm also applying some of our community models and ideals to the panel
[10:02] <ogra> sounds great
[10:03] <cbx33> so ideas on that would be great
[10:03] <cbx33> I'm hoping to blog about it later to get the word out there
[10:03] <cbx33> i think that's it
[10:03] <cbx33> I'm done
[10:03] <cbx33> phew
[10:04] <LaserJock> rockin'
[10:04] <ogra> write the mailing list as well, they both are rown a lot recently ...
[10:04] <ogra> *grown
[10:04] <cbx33> ok
[10:04] <cbx33> phew I got a lot of typing to do
[10:05] <ogra> :)
[10:05] <ogra> well done :)
[10:05] <LaserJock> ogra: do you know offhand about how many subscribers there are to the lists?
[10:05] <ogra> nope
[10:06] <cbx33> oh yeh, one more thing ;)
[10:06] <cbx33> I mentioned this before
[10:06] <ogra> i just noticed a bunch of new subscriptions after the mountainview summit and the poland thing
[10:06] <cbx33> but the edubuntu-school-support group on LP is growing
[10:06] <cbx33> I'd like send something out to them
[10:06] <cbx33> is there a way to send to every member of a group
[10:06] <cbx33> ?
[10:07] <LaserJock> nope
[10:07] <ogra> not afaik, but it might be implemented now, ask in #launchpad
[10:07] <LaserJock> that was asked during Open Week
[10:07] <cbx33> oh
[10:07] <LaserJock> it's in the works (of course)
[10:07] <cbx33> whoops
[10:07] <cbx33> ahh ok
[10:07] <cbx33> :(
[10:07] <LaserJock> but I don't think it's there yet
[10:08] <cbx33> oh btw the Jabber server has proved to be a big success a the school
[10:08] <cbx33> other schools are thinking about rolling it out now
[10:10] <LaserJock> yeah, that's pretty darn cool
[10:10] <cbx33> yeh
[10:10] <cbx33> I'm going to put together a how to
[10:11] <cbx33> anyone know if you can join together two jabber servers?
[10:11] <Burgwork> s2s
[10:11] <ogra> you should be able to ...
[10:11] <cbx33> thanks
[10:11] <cbx33> I'll try that ;)
[10:11] <ogra> ask \sh, he's a jabber master
[10:11] <cbx33> ahh excellent
[10:11] <cbx33> I have a nickname now
[10:11] <cbx33> UberJab
[10:11] <cbx33> hehe
[10:12] <ogra> anyway, are we done with the meeting ?
[10:12] <cbx33> indeed
[10:12] <ogra> going once
[10:12] <cbx33> from my pov anyway
[10:12] <ogra> anyone who wants to say anything SPEAK NOW !
[10:12] <ogra> going twice
[10:12] <ogra> adjourned
[10:12] <ogra> thanks all
[10:12] <ogra> was there anything we should do in the EC today ?
[10:13] <cbx33> hehe
[10:13] <ogra> no candidates etc
[10:13] <ogra> we'll need a new EC memeber, but i'd like to sort jeromes leave from the tema with the CC first
[10:13] <ogra> *team
[10:14] <ogra> i'll mail the list if thats done ... and ask for suggestions for a new member
[10:14] <cbx33> ok
[10:14] <LaserJock> sounds good
[10:14] <ogra> oki, i'm off then ... 12h are enough for one day :)
[10:15] <LaserJock> yep
[10:15] <ajmitch> bye ogra
[10:15] <ogra> ciao