| shackan_ | I know the hassle of burning a cd and rebooting, I haven't burned isos for years, always installed writing to my real disk from vmware (always without a hitch) | 12:13 |
|---|---|---|
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| shackan_ | but I install a new operating system at most a couple of times a year, how often do people try out new livecd, actually ? | 12:13 |
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| bluefoxicy | shackan_: What would be the overall detriment? | 12:20 |
| bluefoxicy | about 400-600k of space used on the livecd... | 12:20 |
| shackan_ | it's just a lot of work (to get qvm86 into good shape) for an uncommon use case, people will just slap the cd and reboot | 12:21 |
| bluefoxicy | shackan_: if I can make qvm86 run Ubuntu as-is I won't need much work. | 12:22 |
| shackan_ | then, just do it :) | 12:22 |
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| jdong | is feisty to adopt cdrkit instead of cdrecord? | 12:29 |
| jdong | apologies in advance if that's a stupid question | 12:29 |
| cjwatson | I believe so | 12:30 |
| cjwatson | it's already been synced and stuff | 12:30 |
| jdong | yeah, looking at my madison-lite it seems like it | 12:30 |
| jdong | cdrecord is being provided by cdrkit | 12:30 |
| jdong | cool | 12:30 |
| jdong | cjwatson: who is typicall in charge of the burning stuff? | 12:30 |
| cjwatson | we generally go with that sort of thing unless there's a particular reason not to | 12:31 |
| cjwatson | jdong: nobody really in Ubuntu | 12:31 |
| jdong | ok | 12:31 |
| jdong | I was just wondering if it'd be a worthwhile backport for Edgy | 12:31 |
| jdong | I've heard cdrkit is supposed to solve some cdrecord bugs | 12:31 |
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| jdong | and it just built fine for edgy and I'm testing burning some ISO's at the moment | 12:32 |
| bluefoxicy | THE CLICKING IS PISSING ME OFF | 12:32 |
| cjwatson | it's a bit messy - transitional packages and stuff | 12:32 |
| === bluefoxicy CPU makes staticey noises when it's busy.. electrical... it's not even the hard disk ugh... | ||
| jdong | bluefoxicy: capacitors | 12:32 |
| jdong | bluefoxicy: not CPU ;-) | 12:32 |
| bluefoxicy | jdong: throttle someone | 12:32 |
| jdong | I love you too, bluefoxicy :) | 12:32 |
| bluefoxicy | jdong: how's your pax kernel :) | 12:33 |
| jdong | bluefoxicy: vdso=0 didn't do the trick | 12:33 |
| jdong | but oh well | 12:33 |
| jdong | I should play with the options a lot more when I get a chance | 12:33 |
| jdong | I definitely believe it's PaX causing it | 12:33 |
| jdong | but even pax_softmode doesn't help | 12:33 |
| jdong | and I can't exactly stack trace or coredump in initramfs | 12:33 |
| jdong | grsecurity.... blocks dumping core because it's greater than 4096bytes | 12:34 |
| jdong | and btw, bluefoxicy, I have seen a case where a livecd does cause windows to fail booting up | 12:34 |
| jdong | as silly as it sounds | 12:34 |
| bluefoxicy | jdong: nods | 12:34 |
| shackan_ | how? | 12:34 |
| jdong | it happens on a lot of Dell consumer PC's when XP was first released (around that time) | 12:35 |
| bluefoxicy | jdong: you got time this weekend to pop in #pax? | 12:35 |
| jdong | windows has its special ways of shutting down the machine | 12:35 |
| jdong | linux doesn't do it the same way | 12:35 |
| jdong | if Linux does the shutdown, XP BSOD's on the next bootup | 12:35 |
| jdong | but another 2 or 3 boot cycles will make XP boot ok again | 12:36 |
| jdong | really peculiar | 12:36 |
| shackan_ | eeek | 12:36 |
| jdong | but I've personally witnessed it happen | 12:36 |
| jdong | and it was the scariest experience | 12:36 |
| jdong | so keep that in mind before popping in LiveCD's everywhere :) | 12:36 |
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| jdong | cjwatson: the transitioning requires a dist-upgrade to effect the upgrade.... | 12:37 |
| jdong | so hmm | 12:37 |
| jdong | though Edgy's update-manager auto-offers dist-upgrade if a standard update can't do the trick | 12:37 |
| jdong | wow, update-manager does it without dist-upgrade | 12:38 |
| jdong | only at the CLI a regular apt-get upgrade will hold back the cdrecord stuff | 12:38 |
| jdong | adept handles it well too | 12:38 |
| jdong | requires postinst configuration too | 12:43 |
| jdong | ok, no cdrkit for Edgy | 12:43 |
| jdong | unless I get a really compelling reason | 12:43 |
| === jdong installs cdrkit on his laptop anyway | ||
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| shawarma | infinity: Do you know anything about the IA64 buildds? | 01:35 |
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| wasabi | so, there's an odd loop in initramfs which is bugging me. I'd appreciate a knowledgeble body helping me pinpoint the bug. =) | 01:37 |
| wasabi | latest feisty, using md + lvm. | 01:37 |
| wasabi | During boot, it looks like, right after premount, the HD's start going into an activity loop. lights on, lights off, lights on, lights off. | 01:37 |
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| wasabi | If I run scripts/init-premount/udev and scripts/local-top/mdadm|lvm manually after breaking at premount, and then continue, it works. | 01:38 |
| === TheGods is now known as tsmithe | ||
| Fujitsu_ | wasabi: You can actually tell it to continue? I've never been able to work out how. | 01:40 |
| wasabi | just exit apparently. | 01:40 |
| wasabi | =) | 01:40 |
| Fujitsu_ | Argh, that would have made some recovery I was doing a while ago a whole lot easier. | 01:40 |
| wasabi | maybe_break seems to just fork a sub shell. | 01:40 |
| wasabi | yeah, so I'm running the scripts in order as they're run on their own, and it works fine. | 01:41 |
| wasabi | I can only suspect a race. | 01:41 |
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| wasabi | a race that somehow puts it into a neverending loop... | 01:41 |
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| sladen | mdz: +1 for -discuss | 01:56 |
| sladen | *immediately* and with --force | 01:57 |
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| psusi | is there a way to set up a batch type postinst step? that will be done once after all packages are installed? for something that several packages require, like update-initramfs? | 03:09 |
| psusi | rather than having each one do it again and again in their own postinst | 03:09 |
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| infinity | shawarma: What do you want to know about the ia64 buildds? | 03:27 |
| psusi | that reminds me... is there a way to get shell access for pbuildering purposes on an ia64 server? how about ppc? the defrag package I updated recently failed to build on those platforms.... unfortunately, I only have amd64/i386 | 03:28 |
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| infinity | psusi: We don't have any machines acceissible for non-staff, yet. It's on the TODO. | 03:32 |
| infinity | psusi: I could give you access to a PPC machine in my house, though. Bug me on Monday? | 03:32 |
| psusi | ok... I'd just hate to upload the package a dozen times trying to get it to build over there | 03:32 |
| psusi | heh... ok | 03:32 |
| lifeless | psusi: someone needs to update defrag to do ext3 :( | 03:40 |
| psusi | lifeless, I have | 03:42 |
| psusi | want to be a test victim... err... volunteer? | 03:42 |
| psusi | ;) | 03:42 |
| lifeless | psusi: you have? seet. | 03:50 |
| lifeless | *sweet* | 03:50 |
| lifeless | now get ted t'so to review the patch :) | 03:51 |
| psusi | ahh, yea... he was one of the original authors wasn't he? | 03:55 |
| psusi | didn't he used to hang here? | 03:55 |
| lifeless | dont think so | 03:55 |
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| psusi | hrm... is the man page for udev right or is this an error? | 04:05 |
| psusi | it says the key will match if the external program returns NONZERO | 04:05 |
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| psusi | that flys in the face of convention though... nonzero means it failed | 04:06 |
| mjg59 | Well, except for APIs where that isn't the convention | 04:06 |
| psusi | talking shell here, not C ;) | 04:07 |
| psusi | program exit()s with 0 means it worked correctly | 04:07 |
| psusi | and the shell treats that as TRUE | 04:07 |
| psusi | so it doesn't make any sense that udev would do the reverse | 04:07 |
| mjg59 | Well, unless the applications tend to do something like return the number of matches | 04:08 |
| mjg59 | Why don't you test it and find out? | 04:08 |
| psusi | I suppose I will have to | 04:08 |
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| Chipzz | ieks | 04:55 |
| Chipzz | after upgrading to feisty, my c's look all weird | 04:56 |
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| jdong | Chipzz: you mean you c a problem? | 05:00 |
| jdong | a ha ha ha | 05:00 |
| jdong | I crack myself up | 05:00 |
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| Chipzz | jdong: no, c's are very thin, to the point of being allmost invisible | 05:01 |
| jdong | i c | 05:02 |
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| Chipzz | :P | 05:03 |
| Chipzz | o's too apparently | 05:03 |
| Chipzz | jdong: http://chipzz.safehex.be/oc.png | 05:06 |
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| Chipzz | look at the c in december, and the o in subscriptions | 05:06 |
| jdong | O, i C, just with the big letters | 05:07 |
| === Chipzz slaps jdong ;) | ||
| Chipzz | snap out of it ;) | 05:07 |
| jdong | Chipzz: u r acting like you haven't herd 1 or 2 bad puns around here recently ;-) | 05:08 |
| Chipzz | jdong: sure I have :) | 05:08 |
| Chipzz | but the joke got old real fast ;) | 05:08 |
| Chipzz | anyway, Russel Coker doesn't show the problem for some reason | 05:09 |
| Chipzz | seems to be a bigger problem anyway | 05:09 |
| Chipzz | Subscriptions is antialiassed very badly | 05:09 |
| Chipzz | look at the top of the S and T | 05:10 |
| Chipzz | any idea which package I should file a bug against? | 05:10 |
| Chipzz | Setting up ttf-bitstream-vera (1.10-7) ... | 05:13 |
| Chipzz | Regenerating fonts cache... failed; see /var/log/fontconfig.log for more information. | 05:13 |
| Chipzz | done. | 05:13 |
| Chipzz | hrrrm | 05:16 |
| Chipzz | apparently fontconfig problem | 05:17 |
| Chipzz | after reconfiguring it it's gone | 05:17 |
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| holycow | hello | 07:46 |
| holycow | not sure if this is the right channel so boot me if its not | 07:46 |
| holycow | :) | 07:46 |
| holycow | is feisty looking like it will keep metacity or use something like compiz as a compositing manager? | 07:47 |
| holycow | just curious about aiglx + metacity and whether or not any discussion has been had around that | 07:47 |
| Phoenix7477 | well, your in the right place i think, but its late and i think anyone who knows is probably asleep or afk :) | 07:56 |
| holycow | fair enough its friday, and unlike me,they have a life | 07:56 |
| holycow | -_- | 07:56 |
| Hobbsee | and it's a saturday | 07:56 |
| holycow | touche | 07:56 |
| holycow | lol | 07:56 |
| Phoenix7477 | lol | 07:57 |
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| superjon | Is feisty built with the new .gnu.hash improvements to speed up the linker? | 07:58 |
| superjon | Or *will* it be built with these improvements? | 07:58 |
| deltab | holycow: this? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/composite-by-default | 07:59 |
| holycow | ah okay | 07:59 |
| holycow | oh jesus | 08:00 |
| holycow | beryl and compiz are actually being considered | 08:00 |
| holycow | lol thats what i was afraid of. | 08:00 |
| holycow | k danke sir | 08:00 |
| holycow | deltab, appreciate that | 08:00 |
| Fujitsu | holycow: I don't believe they are being seriously considered any more, fortunately. | 08:02 |
| holycow | really? *phew* | 08:02 |
| holycow | would be nice NOT to become fedora i think, officially running pre alpha stuff ... heh | 08:03 |
| Fujitsu | A lot of people were rather... angry? ... when it was announced as a specification. | 08:03 |
| holycow | yeah, we are starting to weer into some uncharted territories | 08:04 |
| holycow | the distro for human beings i think means not using its userbase as a huge guinea pig population | 08:06 |
| holycow | there are distros that specialize in running very untested stuff ... some thought needs to be given to stability vs. latest and greatest | 08:07 |
| holycow | but thats just an opinion of a nobody at a time when there isn't anyone to read it :) | 08:07 |
| superjon | Yeah it is called Foresight Linux... distro that runs broken^H^H^H^H^H^H Bleeding edge code | 08:08 |
| holycow | heh never heard of that | 08:09 |
| holycow | i was thinking gentoo :) but y'know | 08:09 |
| holycow | still funny | 08:09 |
| superjon | http://foresightlinux.com/ based on rpath's conary package manager, bleeding edge gnome+mono, etc, etc | 08:11 |
| holycow | wow | 08:11 |
| superjon | are you the same holycow that was always in #hula awhile back? | 08:13 |
| holycow | hey dude | 08:14 |
| holycow | indeed | 08:14 |
| holycow | :) | 08:14 |
| holycow | its funny you remember the nick i didn't make much noise in there | 08:14 |
| superjon | nice | 08:14 |
| holycow | i'm still keeping an eye on hula | 08:15 |
| superjon | well there were 2 cow users as I remember | 08:15 |
| holycow | i know novell stoped dropping resources on it but ya never know it could still end up being the bling | 08:15 |
| superjon | So am I, but they are furiously trying to work on hula-store which is a dead end | 08:15 |
| superjon | If they would just release a 1.0 of hula-lite, distributions would likely adopt it | 08:16 |
| holycow | actually that is probably some of themost sensible opinion i've heard on hula in a while | 08:16 |
| superjon | Who *wouldn't* want dragonfly's beautiful webmail ontop of a rock solid postfix / sa setup? | 08:16 |
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| holycow | superjon, indeed | 08:16 |
| holycow | btw, if anyone cares ... | 08:17 |
| superjon | Alex Hudson seems to be the new "leader" from what I see in the ML, but he thinks hula-store is the way to go. Rewriting all of that is what caused campd to leave novell | 08:17 |
| holycow | the reason i'm asking about the metacity/aiglx stuff is because i'm piloting ubuntu at work | 08:17 |
| superjon | For normal desktops, or "techie" desktops? | 08:17 |
| holycow | normal deesktops *nod* | 08:18 |
| superjon | 3 people on my team of 5 run ubuntu desktops at work | 08:18 |
| holycow | i'm hoping NOT to hear that compiz/beryl become some sort of standard especially for the next lts | 08:18 |
| superjon | Well people dont quite understand what that means | 08:18 |
| holycow | dapper has turned out to be a seriously superb desktop | 08:18 |
| superjon | If beryl was used by default, it would use the heliodor window decorator which shares metacity themes and would be seriously toned down | 08:19 |
| superjon | No wobbly windows by default | 08:19 |
| holycow | its not that, its just seriously faulty software | 08:19 |
| superjon | The cube switcher, expose clone, dimming unresponsive windows, and minimize animations are actually more usable | 08:19 |
| superjon | Have you actually used a recent release? | 08:20 |
| holycow | no its beena while but the stuff is still what ... alpha? | 08:20 |
| _ion | Shadows are also nice. They actually improve usability IMO. | 08:20 |
| holycow | _ion, they do | 08:20 |
| _ion | They have matured nicely. | 08:20 |
| superjon | I've ran it for the past 3 months with few problems. The beryl leader, quinnstorm is solely working on bugfixing of the core | 08:20 |
| holycow | i think waiting to see how metacity starts handling stuff is a better strategy long term | 08:20 |
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| holycow | we loooooove to reinvent the wheel in th eopen source world and thats fine as an experiment | 08:21 |
| superjon | holycow Read what Elijah Newren, the metacity maintainer says | 08:21 |
| holycow | but throwing out years of dev experince on metacity is kinda scary | 08:21 |
| holycow | okay googling | 08:21 |
| superjon | The guys at redhat (mainly Soren) who were doing the metacity compositor dropped it dead. They moved to compiz | 08:21 |
| jdub | holycow: pretty strong agreement on d-d-l that pushing it into metacity *isn't* the right thing to do | 08:21 |
| jdub | holycow: while most of the metacity window management rules have been lifted into compiz | 08:21 |
| holycow | jdub, really? | 08:22 |
| Hobbsee | jdub: d-d-l? | 08:22 |
| superjon | From what I read in the gnome mailinglist(s), compiz will likely be the longterm solution with metacity staying as a fallback and for thin clients | 08:22 |
| tepsipakki | desktop-devel-list | 08:22 |
| Hobbsee | ahhh | 08:22 |
| holycow | oh i see | 08:23 |
| holycow | hense the reference to metacity being a button / applet or checkbox or somesuch on the above linked page | 08:23 |
| holycow | interesting | 08:23 |
| holycow | jdub, thx for the heads up onthat | 08:24 |
| holycow | gives me a direction to watch for i think | 08:24 |
| superjon | jdub: Would you happen to know if feisty is being built with DT_GNU_HASH to improve the linker times? | 08:24 |
| tepsipakki | superjon: if that's what glibc-2.5 brings in, then yes, I suppose.. | 08:25 |
| jdub | superjon: no idea | 08:26 |
| superjon | but it has to be enabled in the configure options | 08:27 |
| superjon | Just like -fstack_protector has to be added | 08:27 |
| superjon | http://www.elfenbeinturm.cc/2006/07/12/dt_gnu_hash-update/ | 08:28 |
| superjon | http://sources.redhat.com/ml/binutils/2006-06/msg00418.html here is the actual post on it | 08:29 |
| Treenaks | superjon: -fstack_protector is being used by default afaik | 08:31 |
| superjon | Treenaks: Yes, that is correct. I was using that as an example though | 08:32 |
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| Phoenix7477 | anyone here familiar with programming in C? | 08:41 |
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| Burgundavia | BenC: your KernelPatches page, can we talk about it in the UWN? | 08:46 |
| BenC | UWN? | 08:47 |
| Burgundavia | ubuntu weekly news | 08:47 |
| BenC | sure | 08:47 |
| BenC | is it news worthy? :) | 08:47 |
| Burgundavia | sounds good, thanks | 08:47 |
| Burgundavia | it is more "public information service" than specific news, but yes, it is news worthy | 08:48 |
| BenC | excellent | 08:48 |
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| BenC | Burgundavia: I'll let you know if I create any more wiki pages out of shear frustration :) | 08:49 |
| Burgundavia | will do | 08:50 |
| Burgundavia | getting information out is one of the goals of the marketing team | 08:50 |
| Burgundavia | sometimes that means internally | 08:50 |
| superjon | BenC: Is the Feisty toolchain using DT_GNU_HASH linker improvements by default? You of all people would know this | 08:52 |
| BenC | no, doko and jbailey of all people would know this | 08:53 |
| superjon | Ok, so you don't know? | 08:53 |
| BenC | I've been meaning to ask them though | 08:53 |
| BenC | no, not off hand | 08:53 |
| superjon | Alright, thanks | 08:53 |
| BenC | np | 08:53 |
| superjon | I'll shoot them an email | 08:53 |
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| shawarma | infinity: Well, I have a build that fails on ia64 (and sparc, as it turns out). The package is apcalc and it fails during regression testing. The test that fails is a check to see if file descriptor 3 is attached to a tty.. So it could either be the detection code that messes it up, or file descriptor 3 on ia64 and sparc buildd's could actually be attached to a tty. | 10:14 |
| shawarma | infinity: So the question is: Is anything special being done on ia64 and sparc buildd's that could make file descriptor 3 attached to a tty? | 10:16 |
| shawarma | infinity: The Debian builds of it worked fine. :-/ | 10:16 |
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| Fujitsu | Is MoM not updating, or am I imagining it? | 10:27 |
| infinity | shawarma: There's nothing "special" about them, compared to the other arches. | 10:27 |
| Hobbsee | Fujitsu: i'm not sure, i just tried to do a merge and found it was already done | 10:28 |
| Fujitsu | Hobbsee: I've tried to do quite a number, and found they'd been done. Quite a number of syncs have been filed, and they've already been done... It's all being nice and counter-productive. | 10:29 |
| Hobbsee | heh | 10:29 |
| Riddell | infinity: do you know what the status of the digikam 1:0.9.0~rc2-0ubuntu2 build is? it seems to have been building since yesterday on i386 | 10:30 |
| shawarma | infinity: That's odd. | 10:32 |
| infinity | shawarma: The existance of that as a rgression test seems odd anyway. Why would we care if fd3 is a tty? | 10:32 |
| shawarma | infinity: Oh, well, qemu can emulate a sparc, so I guess I could try doing a build in one of those. | 10:33 |
| shawarma | infinity: Oh, I don't think that's the purpose. I think the purpose is to check if isatty does the right thing, and it's assumed that fd 3 i not a tty. | 10:33 |
| infinity | Riddell: Err, it's not building, it's dep-wait. | 10:33 |
| Riddell | hmm. hmm. launchpad said it was building just a second ago | 10:34 |
| infinity | shawarma: Odd assumption to make, given the sorts of perverse shell tricks people like me are known to pull. :) | 10:34 |
| shawarma | infinity: But yes, it would seem quite odd to have a regression test that was actually testing the build environment. :-) | 10:34 |
| infinity | Riddell: Probably a dep-wait loop, cause it has a build-dep in universe. | 10:34 |
| infinity | libexiv2-dev | 10:35 |
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| Riddell | yep, thanks | 10:35 |
| shawarma | infinity: Indeed. Maybe I should just change it to file descriptor 38. That should be good enough for most people. :-) | 10:35 |
| infinity | Riddell: Time for an MIR for exiv2. | 10:35 |
| infinity | shawarma: Alternately, of course, it could be that isatty is actually misbehaving. | 10:36 |
| Riddell | yeah, we have one, it was just for exiv2 to pass NEW | 10:36 |
| infinity | shawarma: Given than I can think of no reason why fd3 would be any different on ia64 and sparc than on the other arches. | 10:36 |
| shawarma | infinity: True. The code looks very innocent though. And if it fails on fd 38, it's *definitely* the code that's failing. | 10:36 |
| infinity | Riddell: Oh, there's an approved MIR already? I can promote it, if that's the case. (it's in universe currently) | 10:36 |
| Riddell | infinity: it's not been approved by pitti yet | 10:37 |
| infinity | Riddell: Ahh, kay. Check. | 10:37 |
| shawarma | Hmm... I just got a second notice about the same build failing.. Why would that happen? | 10:38 |
| shawarma | Do I have to acknowledge it or something to shut it up? | 10:39 |
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| infinity | shawarma: Because I retried it for kicks. | 10:51 |
| === Hobbsee waves to infinity | ||
| jdub | oh man | 10:52 |
| jdub | i'm || <- this close to turning off my ubuntu and canonical aliases | 10:52 |
| Hobbsee | jdub: why? | 10:52 |
| infinity | jdub: I'd question why you still have a canonical one anyway. :P | 10:52 |
| jdub | Hobbsee: horrific spammage | 10:53 |
| Hobbsee | ah | 10:53 |
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| CyberT3 | first_auth_command=<BEGIN_COMMAND>dhclient %i<END_COMMAND> | 11:05 |
| CyberT3 | whats wrong with above line? | 11:05 |
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| cjwatson | Riddell: fixed the lack of disk choice in the KDE frontend - just needed to s/disk_buttongroup\.show()/disk_frame.show()/ | 11:36 |
| cjwatson | thanks for the help! | 11:37 |
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| szachista_ | hello | 11:54 |
| szachista_ | i'm not sure if it's a good place for this question, but | 11:55 |
| szachista_ | where can i report misuse of ubuntu licence? | 11:55 |
| szachista_ | i have read on fsf site that first it should be reported to the copyright holder | 11:55 |
| szachista_ | does it mean canonical? | 11:55 |
| Riddell | cjwatson: cool | 11:56 |
| szachista_ | the case is there is oen regional distro, just created few day before, which uses packages from ubuntu repository but it licence says the whole distro is freeware | 11:56 |
| Riddell | cjwatson: I'm looking at porting it to qt4 just now | 11:56 |
| cjwatson | szachista_: I'd be inclined to mail info@ubuntu.com; most of the time that sort of thing is just a misunderstanding | 11:57 |
| cjwatson | they probably aren't actually breaking our licence (and note that we are only the copyright holder of parts of it), just misrepresenting it | 11:58 |
| cjwatson | Riddell: neat | 11:58 |
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| szachista_ | cjwatson: well, i was talking with it's author and looks like he really interprets gpl the wrong way :/ | 11:59 |
| szachista_ | cjwatson: ohh... and there is no english version for this licence for now, so is worth to write to cannonical about that? | 12:00 |
| cjwatson | if you can provide a reliable translation, sure | 12:00 |
| cjwatson | (I think there may be a better address than info@, but I don't remember what it would be ...) | 12:01 |
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| rob | ajmitch: ping | 01:06 |
| StevenK | rob: He is likely sleeping, it's around 1am | 01:06 |
| rob | in NZ? | 01:06 |
| === StevenK nods. | ||
| StevenK | Well, ajmitch is, I'm not. :-) | 01:07 |
| rob | ah ok, I'm in aus, its only 10am here (should have thought about that) | 01:07 |
| rob | yeah | 01:07 |
| rob | err 10 pm rather | 01:07 |
| === StevenK grins | ||
| Fujitsu | rob: SA? | 01:07 |
| Hobbsee | yes, but you're in queensland | 01:07 |
| Fujitsu | Ah. | 01:07 |
| Fujitsu | That'd do it. | 01:07 |
| rob | yep | 01:07 |
| Hobbsee | Fujitsu: SA's only half an hour behind. the flight attendants told us so. | 01:08 |
| Fujitsu | A..ha. | 01:08 |
| jdub | Hobbsee: half an hour and twenty years. | 01:08 |
| rob | I just noticed on sourceforge that he is involved with a project called Scrappy, which sounds like something my wife would be interested in using eventually | 01:08 |
| StevenK | Yup. And NT is 1 and a half hours, just to be confusing. | 01:08 |
| Hobbsee | jdub: *grin* | 01:09 |
| === Fujitsu looks for the MoM reset switch. | ||
| StevenK | Fujitsu: Commonly called "Keybuk" | 01:12 |
| rob | I was thinking chocolates, but sure, ok :D | 01:12 |
| === Fujitsu presses Keybuk, and doesn't see any useful effect. | ||
| geser | Fujitsu: wait till it pops up again before pressing it | 01:18 |
| === Fujitsu thinks it is stuck, and presses it repetitively anyway. | ||
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| StevenK | Keybuk or MoM? :-P | 01:19 |
| StevenK | MoM might be crashing | 01:19 |
| Fujitsu | StevenK: I presume it is crashing, yes. | 01:19 |
| Fujitsu | It has a habit of that, of late. | 01:19 |
| infinity | Special. apt-get in my hoary chroot has spontaenously decided to start segfaulting. | 01:21 |
| infinity | Fanfreakingtastic. | 01:21 |
| Fujitsu | Sounds ideal! | 01:21 |
| Hobbsee | infinity: *way cool* - why do you have a hoary chroot? | 01:21 |
| infinity | Hobbsee: Why not? | 01:21 |
| pitti | infinity: it might be aware that its's supposed to be entirely dead now... | 01:21 |
| === Fujitsu agrees with Hobbsee on the latter point. | ||
| Hobbsee | infinity: because it's EOL'd? | 01:21 |
| Fujitsu | +1 pitti | 01:21 |
| Hobbsee | haha | 01:22 |
| infinity | Hobbsee: Old habits die hard. | 01:22 |
| infinity | I suppose I should delete EOL chroots. | 01:22 |
| infinity | Hell, I still have potato chroots. | 01:22 |
| Hobbsee | infinity: got warty ones too, then? | 01:22 |
| Fujitsu | Buzz! | 01:22 |
| infinity | Hobbsee: Yes. | 01:22 |
| Hobbsee | heh | 01:22 |
| bhale | Hobbsee: at my parents i found a cdr labeled Warty RC | 01:22 |
| bhale | with a solid inch of dust on it | 01:22 |
| bhale | history in the making | 01:22 |
| Hobbsee | bhale: ...wow | 01:22 |
| === pitti removed his hoary chroot on November 1st, in a devotional ceremony | ||
| infinity | (base)adconrad@cthulhu:/chroot$ find * -maxdepth 0 -type d | 01:23 |
| infinity | breezy | 01:23 |
| infinity | dapper | 01:23 |
| infinity | edgy | 01:23 |
| infinity | etch | 01:23 |
| infinity | feisty | 01:23 |
| infinity | hoary | 01:23 |
| infinity | potato | 01:23 |
| infinity | sarge | 01:23 |
| infinity | sid | 01:23 |
| infinity | warty | 01:23 |
| infinity | woody | 01:23 |
| Fujitsu | Good old woody. | 01:23 |
| infinity | Is woody EOL now too? Or is Debian still doing oldstable updates? | 01:23 |
| pitti | ended ages ago | 01:24 |
| infinity | Right. Guess I can make that go too. | 01:24 |
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| === infinity sheds a tear. | ||
| pitti | infinity: woody support ended in June 2006 IIRC | 01:24 |
| pitti | (one year after sarge was released) | 01:25 |
| pitti | http://www.debian.org/releases/woody/ agrees | 01:25 |
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| Whoopie | Hi, is there any plan when the edgy-commercial repo is filled with the packages from dapper-commercial? | 01:29 |
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| cjwatson | Whoopie: I don't believe that's going to happen automatically; it depends what the companies supporting those packages want to do | 01:36 |
| StevenK | infinity: Just one? | 01:38 |
| Whoopie | cjwatson: ah, I thought somebody of the devs is filling the repo. So you are waiting until the companies are ready with packages for edgy? | 01:38 |
| szachista_ | errr... what was that email where i can report ubuntu licence violation? | 01:38 |
| szachista_ | sorry, my web browser has crashed ;( | 01:38 |
| cjwatson | Whoopie: well, it's not my responsibility, that's just what I vaguely remember | 01:38 |
| infinity | StevenK: Several, truth be told. Woody was a good release, with many fond memories. | 01:38 |
| szachista_ | i mean i use opera for irc ;) | 01:39 |
| StevenK | Heh | 01:39 |
| cjwatson | szachista_: info@ubuntu.com was what I suggested, although as I said it may not be quite right | 01:39 |
| szachista_ | cjwatson: thank you :) | 01:39 |
| StevenK | infinity: Do packages need to be given back manually if a dependancy didn't exist? | 01:39 |
| Whoopie | cjwatson: ok, thanks. | 01:39 |
| infinity | StevenK: Should go into dep-wait, which will be auto-cleared. | 01:39 |
| infinity | StevenK: Package in question? | 01:39 |
| cjwatson | Whoopie: mdy@c.c deals with that sort of thing from the corporate end, I believe | 01:40 |
| StevenK | infinity: libept | 01:40 |
| cjwatson | well, libtagcoll2-dev still doesn't exist ... | 01:41 |
| infinity | StevenK: https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/282546 | 01:42 |
| infinity | StevenK: auto-dep-wait. It'll clear when the dep can be found. :) | 01:42 |
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| pitti | do import requests from experimental require an ubuntu-archive bug, or is an IRC ping enough? | 01:43 |
| StevenK | Ah, I know why. libtagcoll2 has built, and is stuck in binary NEW. | 01:43 |
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| infinity | pitti: Paper trails are nice, but IRC can do the trick, if someone's in the mood to do the sync. | 01:43 |
| pitti | ok; I'd like to get postgresql-8.2 into feisty, but I cannot upload it to unstable yet since it would disrupt the etch release process | 01:44 |
| === pitti files a bug | ||
| Fujitsu | cjwatson: I note that gcl has built on all archs. | 01:44 |
| StevenK | (Well, I think that's it. I can't check, of course. :-) | 01:44 |
| Lure | pitti: re exiv2 MIR - are we supposed to hunt upstream regarding soname or is it possible to accept it as is? | 01:45 |
| infinity | StevenK: It's not anymore. :P | 01:45 |
| === StevenK grins. | ||
| StevenK | Neat, so hopefully libept will be stuck in the same fate soon. :-) | 01:46 |
| infinity | Ungh, someone put the tagcoll2 source in universe. | 01:46 |
| infinity | And it produces binaries in main. | 01:46 |
| pitti | Lure: asking upstream about sane sonames is always a good idea, but I won't insist that it's done before promotion | 01:46 |
| infinity | And is, I assume, replacing a previous SOVER from main. | 01:46 |
| infinity | GO US. | 01:46 |
| === infinity fixes. | ||
| StevenK | Ohh, nice. | 01:46 |
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| Lure | pitti: ok, thanks - I will ping upstream | 01:47 |
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| infinity | StevenK: Should be good after the next publisher run. | 01:47 |
| pitti | Lure: great, thanks | 01:47 |
| infinity | StevenK: If not... Bug someone else. I won't be around. :) | 01:47 |
| StevenK | infinity: Nice, thanks. | 01:47 |
| StevenK | infinity: :-) | 01:48 |
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| cjwatson | Fujitsu: yes, I went to deal with it earlier this morning but saw the comment on the bug implying that it may not be properly fixed | 01:49 |
| cjwatson | Fujitsu: so I'd like an answer to that before proceeding | 01:51 |
| StevenK | cjwatson: I've been meaning to ask, why not Kamion any more? | 01:51 |
| cjwatson | I switched while away somewhere because I couldn't get to my home server, and liked it better | 01:53 |
| StevenK | Heh, fair enough. | 01:53 |
| cjwatson | conversations with Keybuk are easier to follow, if nothing else ... | 01:53 |
| Fujitsu | cjwatson: Yeah, I noted that... I think it must be a different bug, as it is fixed for everybody else, and the fix makes sense. | 01:53 |
| StevenK | cjwatson: Bwaha | 01:53 |
| cjwatson | Fujitsu: I'll wait until Monday for a response from that user, then go ahead | 01:54 |
| StevenK | cjwatson: My client hilights the nick of people talking to or about me in red, which makes it simpler. | 01:54 |
| Fujitsu | cjwatson: Sounds good. | 01:55 |
| jdub | freespire shipping upstart | 01:55 |
| Fujitsu | StevenK: Have you not read through conversations where K{eybuk,amion} have been talking to each other, and been confused? | 01:55 |
| StevenK | Not usually. | 01:56 |
| StevenK | It happens occasionally. :-) | 01:56 |
| Fujitsu | When is Keybuk normally around? | 01:57 |
| cjwatson | StevenK: so does mine, but it doesn't highlight my own statements visibly enough to avoid confusion when reading back through scrollback | 01:59 |
| StevenK | Ahh. My own statements have the <> hilighted in red, which gives me enough of a clue. | 01:59 |
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| sivang | Lathiat: and now? :) | 02:15 |
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| sivang | Lathiat: Well, when you do see this message, I was just wondering if you could walk me through again to set up Xorg to work using hardware accel, using the ATI prop driver, | 02:26 |
| sivang | Lathiat: you see, the FLOSS one is terrible in even movie playing performance wise. | 02:26 |
| Treenaks | sivang: it works OK on my mac mini | 02:28 |
| Treenaks | but somehow it forces AGP to 1x always | 02:29 |
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| bhale | cjwatson: this is a silly question, but does ubiquity call xrandr after the keyboard map selector page? | 03:57 |
| bhale | cjwatson: the screen goes totally ape, and it even seems to be rotated on its side from what I can make out | 03:57 |
| Riddell | bhale: I also get X corruption at that stage | 04:00 |
| Riddell | filing a bug is on my todo list | 04:00 |
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| bluefoxicy | GAH | 05:37 |
| bluefoxicy | Qu'vatlh ghuy'cha' >< | 05:37 |
| bluefoxicy | bhale: ping. Confirm this for me: NX-bit supplied 32-bit platform (i.e. amd64 in 32-bit mode), no NX bit, edgy, kernel 2.6.19-7-generic | 05:37 |
| bluefoxicy | cpuinfo says I have it | 05:38 |
| bluefoxicy | maps says it's set | 05:38 |
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| bluefoxicy | paxtest says vulnerable to every-fucking-thing | 05:38 |
| bluefoxicy | it wasn't like this before | 05:38 |
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| jdong | 2.6.19 made reiserfs stop retardedly caching its bitmaps at mount, right? | 07:13 |
| jdong | so it doesn't take 3 minutes to mount my external HD? | 07:13 |
| jdong | ok, I'll assume so and install my test feisty partition as reiser | 07:13 |
| jdong | and come back here and nag you guys in 3 hours if it wasn't the case | 07:13 |
| jdong | sound good? of course it does :) | 07:13 |
| wasabi | xfs yay =) | 07:14 |
| wasabi | xfs won't kill your wife, just your files. | 07:14 |
| jdong | wasabi: xfs is no friend of the pbuilder though ;-) | 07:14 |
| wasabi | </bad> | 07:14 |
| jdong | lol | 07:14 |
| jdong | wasabi: it's a shame XFS doesn't like to delete files in a timely manner :D | 07:14 |
| wasabi | Yeah. That is annoying. | 07:14 |
| wasabi | I do wish it had optional data journaling just for completeness too | 07:15 |
| jdong | aye | 07:15 |
| jdong | wasabi: also, on plebian x86 hardware, I can consistently corrupt XFS though intentional resets | 07:15 |
| jdong | so it ain't for general usage.... | 07:15 |
| wasabi | You mean hard power off? | 07:16 |
| jdong | right | 07:16 |
| wasabi | Totally. It caches too much | 07:16 |
| jdong | hard poweroff and hard reset | 07:16 |
| wasabi | You need battery backed stuff. | 07:16 |
| jdong | well, not just caching... | 07:16 |
| jdong | caching can explain DATA being gone or corrupted | 07:16 |
| jdong | not XFS refusing to mount, and xfs_repair zapping everything to lost+found | 07:16 |
| jdong | that there is metadata corruption.... | 07:16 |
| wasabi | Hmm. Haven't had that for a long time. | 07:16 |
| jdong | well | 07:16 |
| wasabi | There was a bug in... <2.6.16 I think | 07:16 |
| wasabi | Which introduced silent corruption. | 07:16 |
| jdong | this behavior came back in Edgy for me | 07:16 |
| jdong | silent corruption was 2.6.17.1-7 | 07:17 |
| wasabi | Eh? Thought it was way before that. | 07:17 |
| jdong | but what I experienced was not that | 07:17 |
| jdong | wasabi: unless you aren't talking about that dnode corruption fiasco? | 07:17 |
| wasabi | I don't know what the exact issue was. | 07:17 |
| wasabi | I just remember using xfs_db to fix it. =( | 07:17 |
| jdong | that's dnode | 07:17 |
| jdong | introduced early in the 2.6.17 tree | 07:18 |
| jdong | fixed in the point-7 release IIRC | 07:18 |
| wasabi | Ahh, yeah, you're right. Just looked it up. | 07:18 |
| jdong | and to put salt in the wound xfs_repair wasn't able to detect/fix the issue :) | 07:18 |
| wasabi | I got bitten by that. | 07:18 |
| wasabi | Yeah. I had to backport it from edgy or something | 07:18 |
| jdong | yep | 07:18 |
| wasabi | That was depressing. | 07:18 |
| jdong | I bugged a while to get that updated xfstools past version freeze | 07:19 |
| wasabi | I really do like XFS though. It is noticible faster on the systmes I use it on, than ext, anyways. | 07:19 |
| jdong | wasabi: I love XFS too | 07:19 |
| wasabi | It really loves dual cores. | 07:19 |
| jdong | wasabi: I use it to store my multimedia files | 07:19 |
| wasabi | /dev/evms/shares 548G 528G 21G 97% /shares | 07:19 |
| jdong | which ext3 and reiser simply choke on | 07:19 |
| wasabi | same =) | 07:19 |
| jdong | aye, exactly | 07:19 |
| jdong | torrents, too | 07:19 |
| jdong | ext3 fragments my 20GB torrents into 5 fragments or so per MB by the time it's done | 07:20 |
| wasabi | I set up a new box at work last thurs... I started with ext3. | 07:20 |
| jdong | needless to say it doesn't exactly read back with ease ;-) | 07:20 |
| wasabi | As soon as I got under heavy IO node, xchat locked up. | 07:20 |
| wasabi | Blocking on it's log files. | 07:20 |
| wasabi | s/node/load/ | 07:20 |
| jdong | yep | 07:20 |
| wasabi | That pissed me off, so I tar'd it all up and went back to xfs | 07:20 |
| jdong | reiser is better with data writes | 07:20 |
| jdong | but has the same issues with metadata | 07:20 |
| jdong | delete 1 million files, you won't be able to move your MOUSE until it finishes | 07:20 |
| wasabi | heh | 07:21 |
| jdong | (though to be fair it does it at a blistering pace) | 07:21 |
| wasabi | wonder why that stuff doesnt' get backgrounded in an intelligent manor. | 07:21 |
| wasabi | manner | 07:21 |
| jdong | if I understand correctly it's an issue of kernel locks | 07:21 |
| jdong | especially with reiserfs... | 07:21 |
| jdong | there's some serious scalability issues with reiserfs | 07:21 |
| wasabi | I've noticed that too though. Blowing away a 4GB file on XFS... basically locks everything up. | 07:21 |
| jdong | if you have like 20 or so of them mounted, all of them will be very sluggish | 07:22 |
| jdong | the problem isn't nearly as bad on XFS | 07:22 |
| jdong | but yes, it does show up | 07:22 |
| jdong | I think on XFS it's purely an issue of the IO scheduler not playing fairlty | 07:22 |
| wasabi | I don't really understand why. | 07:22 |
| jdong | same with ext3 | 07:22 |
| wasabi | I've always though it would be a relatively small manner to just write down the delete in some log, and work on it in the background. | 07:22 |
| jdong | wasabi: apparently xfs deletion is quite some rocket science | 07:23 |
| jdong | I was told that on #xfs | 07:23 |
| jdong | there's quite a deal of B+tree rebalancing done in the process | 07:23 |
| wasabi | hmm. | 07:23 |
| jdong | and all that balancing is inturn eventually deleted anyway ;-) | 07:23 |
| jdong | especially if your'e removing a large directory tree | 07:23 |
| jdong | that is just screaming to be optimized ;-) | 07:23 |
| wasabi | guess nobody is being paid to work on it anymore eh? | 07:23 |
| wasabi | there were two sgi contractors i thought... before sgi ate it. | 07:24 |
| jdong | there's still sgi folk actively working on XFS | 07:24 |
| wasabi | sandeen or something | 07:24 |
| jdong | yep | 07:24 |
| jdong | Sandeen | 07:24 |
| jdong | and there's another one too | 07:24 |
| wasabi | Do they actually get paid by SGI? | 07:24 |
| jdong | based in Australia | 07:24 |
| jdong | yes, they're paid SGI employees | 07:24 |
| wasabi | I didn't realize SGI still had paid employees. ;) | 07:25 |
| === mruiz [n=mruiz@pc-134-66-104-200.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| jdong | lol | 07:26 |
| jdong | probably not for long :D | 07:26 |
| wasabi | so sad | 07:26 |
| Yagisan | I used to use JFS instead of XFS, almost same performance, but lower cpu use | 07:26 |
| jdong | personally... I hope ext4's promised changes will fix it | 07:26 |
| wasabi | I never really looked much at JFS. | 07:26 |
| jdong | and make it much more performance-competent | 07:26 |
| jdong | JFS is pretty nice | 07:26 |
| wasabi | It got merged into mainline after I made teh switch to XFS. | 07:26 |
| jdong | though there's a few oddities | 07:26 |
| wasabi | So I never really started learning about it | 07:27 |
| jdong | i.e. NEVER EVER MOUNT BEFORE FSCKING | 07:27 |
| wasabi | heh | 07:27 |
| Yagisan | it and xfs where slow on delete so I did recently change it | 07:27 |
| jdong | journal replay is done by fsck | 07:27 |
| wasabi | and mounting doesn't abort? | 07:27 |
| jdong | Yagisan: it's apparently due to the B+tree nature and the need to rebalance the trees on delete | 07:27 |
| jdong | wasabi: no, it happily mounts and then starts screaming about node corruption | 07:27 |
| wasabi | and that's not a 4 line patch? heh | 07:28 |
| jdong | wasabi: you're supposed to mount it ro, fsck it , then mount it rw | 07:28 |
| jdong | wasabi: apparently "everyone knows that" :D | 07:28 |
| Yagisan | first I heard of it | 07:28 |
| jdong | Yagisan: well, good I saved you from looking dumb :D | 07:28 |
| wasabi | On the topic of obscoure file systems. I started playing with AFS again | 07:28 |
| Yagisan | oddly, I found jfs outperformed xfs on my software raid | 07:28 |
| Yagisan | and xfs on non-raid | 07:28 |
| Yagisan | (media, torrents, and many many pbuilder runs) | 07:29 |
| Yagisan | in the end, I went back to slower ext3 with full journalling | 07:29 |
| jdong | Yagisan: jfs is not a bad performer by any stats | 07:29 |
| jdong | in fact, I have found JFS to be the most responsive under heavy IO | 07:29 |
| wasabi | pbuilder sucks because of deletes, right? | 07:29 |
| Yagisan | the low cpu usuage is really nice on jfs | 07:29 |
| jdong | wasabi: right | 07:29 |
| jdong | wasabi: takes 30s to clean up pbuilder on XFS, 10s on ext3, 1s on reiser | 07:30 |
| wasabi | heh. | 07:30 |
| jdong | Yagisan: JFS has _consistent_ performance | 07:30 |
| jdong | sure it may be slow at times compared to the compettiion | 07:30 |
| jdong | but it never wildly fluxuates from task to task | 07:30 |
| jdong | *ahem* reiser | 07:30 |
| wasabi | I'd sure like to see a file system with COW copies. | 07:30 |
| jdong | :) | 07:31 |
| wasabi | and yes I realize programs would have to take advantage of it | 07:31 |
| jdong | bzrfs | 07:31 |
| jdong | lol | 07:31 |
| jdong | one day | 07:31 |
| wasabi | bzrfs? hah | 07:31 |
| jdong | it's not at all impossible | 07:31 |
| jdong | python-fuse FTW? | 07:31 |
| Yagisan | I have resier on my www server for one reason | 07:31 |
| wasabi | I bet you could make a fuse thing do it pretty easy | 07:31 |
| wasabi | in fact... googles. | 07:31 |
| Yagisan | masses and masses of many small files | 07:31 |
| wasabi | I bet somebody else has already thought of it | 07:31 |
| Yagisan | (gigs of doxigenated source) | 07:31 |
| jdong | I have nothing against reiserfs at all | 07:32 |
| jdong | it's been rock-stable for me | 07:33 |
| jdong | the only complaint I've had about it is reiserfsck | 07:33 |
| wasabi | Oh, also, XFS needs shrinking. | 07:33 |
| Yagisan | I had it eat data when I first tried it back in the 2.4.x kernels | 07:33 |
| jdong | if you ever have a hardware malfunction that leaves you with a corrupt FS | 07:33 |
| wasabi | I love that about reiser. | 07:33 |
| jdong | YOU ARE SCREWED WITH REISER :) | 07:33 |
| wasabi | online shrinking and expanding | 07:33 |
| jdong | have fun :) | 07:33 |
| jdong | they should just symlink fsck.reiserfs to mkfs.reiserfs | 07:33 |
| jdong | it'll save time | 07:33 |
| jdong | and code | 07:33 |
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| wasabi | I'd also like a way to re-collapse sparse files. | 07:39 |
| wasabi | Without closing them. | 07:39 |
| jdong | :) | 07:42 |
| Chipzz | wasabi: just wondering, how do you create a sparse file in the first place? just write all zeroes? | 07:52 |
| cjwatson | bhale,Riddell: no, it doesn't. It does call setupcon, which does ioctl(KDFONTOP), which seems to confuse X in various ways; there is a bug filed already | 07:53 |
| cjwatson | hoping not to have to turn that off again, as it's nice for setup-console-under-usplash as well as general simplicity, but I may have to if we can't work out the issue | 07:55 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: seek ahead in the file. | 07:55 |
| cjwatson | problem is that I haven't seen it on any of my own hardware so far | 07:55 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: which basically increases it's size, but writes nothing. the FS can interpret that as using fake blank space | 07:55 |
| wasabi | dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=1M count=0 seek=100 or something | 07:56 |
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| Chipzz | wasabi: wont that just return an EOF? | 08:03 |
| === dLinkCrawxor [n=sdfsdfsd@125-236-172-192.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| cjwatson | Chipzz: no, see lseek(2) | 08:03 |
| cjwatson | it has an explicit paragraph about that at the end of the DESCRIPTION section | 08:04 |
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| Chipzz | uhu | 08:05 |
| Chipzz | thx :) | 08:05 |
| dLinkCrawxor | Is it true ubuntu dont fix all bugs thus getting more money through supporting the system? | 08:05 |
| Chipzz | heh | 08:06 |
| mjg59 | Not deliberately, no | 08:06 |
| Chipzz | you're implying so bad things | 08:06 |
| Chipzz | if ubuntu would do that, they would be shooting theirselves in the foot | 08:06 |
| desrt | dLinkCrawxor; ubuntu doesn't get money from support... | 08:06 |
| desrt | dLinkCrawxor; except indirectly | 08:06 |
| dLinkCrawxor | ok | 08:07 |
| desrt | dLinkCrawxor; companies involved in (and sometimes working on -- that's the indirect) get the money | 08:07 |
| Chipzz | dLinkCrawxor: not every bug gets fixed; but I think that's more of a resources thing as to use for ransom | 08:07 |
| wasabi | is it true that mark eat's babies? | 08:08 |
| cjwatson | I can confidently say that I've never once deliberately failed to fix a bug in order to increase support revenue, nor have I ever been asked to | 08:08 |
| desrt | wasabi; that i can confirm. | 08:08 |
| cjwatson | the same is true of every technical company I've worked at | 08:08 |
| Chipzz | btw, I was wondering something | 08:09 |
| cjwatson | desrt: that's not true though - Canonical has a growing support department | 08:09 |
| Chipzz | whoopie brought up dapper-commercial earlier | 08:09 |
| desrt | cjwatson; canonical _is not_ ubuntu | 08:09 |
| cjwatson | desrt: *shrug* damn big slice of it | 08:09 |
| Chipzz | what is supposed to be best practice for commercial apps if they ship their own libraries we also ship? | 08:09 |
| Lathiat | desrt: while that is true | 08:09 |
| Lathiat | arguably, its a pretty fuzzy line | 08:09 |
| cjwatson | desrt: in practice a large chunk of that support revenue is going to feed straight back into Ubuntu | 08:09 |
| desrt | cjwatson; as i said above. indirectly because canonical works on ubuntu. | 08:10 |
| Chipzz | make a .deb with their libs included, or alter to structure to have it ue our files? | 08:10 |
| cjwatson | desrt: which you may call indirect, but I think is direct | 08:10 |
| Chipzz | s/ue/use/ | 08:10 |
| desrt | cjwatson; i claim that it's indirect for the time being | 08:10 |
| cjwatson | desrt: I respectfully disagree, and we can leave it at that | 08:10 |
| desrt | cjwatson; since if there was no support money, even now, mark would just be bankrolling the entire thing still | 08:11 |
| desrt | cjwatson; but this is not going to be true going into the future | 08:11 |
| bluefoxicy | yep | 08:12 |
| bluefoxicy | it's official, and it's pissing me off, wtf. | 08:12 |
| dLinkCrawxor | Ubuntu is just like everything else. It's about making profit. | 08:12 |
| === bluefoxicy lobs this one towards the LKML. | ||
| Chipzz | for example vmware-player ships its own version of gtk+, should we ship that too, or have it depend on our libgtk2-0? | 08:12 |
| dLinkCrawxor | Not saying that's a bad thing | 08:12 |
| dLinkCrawxor | Linux is a hippie thing anymore | 08:12 |
| dLinkCrawxor | isnt* | 08:12 |
| === Lathiat laughs | ||
| wasabi | Chipzz: I don't believe there is a policy. There should be. ;) | 08:13 |
| Chipzz | (maybe I should ask on -motu?) | 08:13 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: I'd like to see third parties ship ubuntu-certified packages. | 08:13 |
| dLinkCrawxor | Mark is a Giant Pooh. Jesus told me | 08:13 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: Like, one package for dapper, one for edgy, one for feisty, etc. | 08:14 |
| wasabi | Or maybe just for LTS releases. | 08:14 |
| Chipzz | wasabi: well, obviously depending on our own libs is better; otoh, when our libs upgrade to something incompatible with the commercial package, we'll have to include it again, so that makes stuff more difficult to upgrade these packages | 08:15 |
| Lathiat | vmware tries to use the distro libs anyway | 08:15 |
| Lathiat | if that fails it restarts with its own | 08:15 |
| Lathiat | interestingly, in dapper, it would fail with dappers and fell back to its own | 08:15 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: I feel the vendor should track our libs, and we should not change our libs in incompatible ways without very good reasons. | 08:15 |
| Lathiat | due to some change in gtk that caused vmware to crash | 08:15 |
| Lathiat | (it was a vmware bug, but none the less) | 08:15 |
| Chipzz | wasabi: yes, but what if the vendor doesn't ship binaries for ubuntu, just general binaries | 08:15 |
| Chipzz | and we happen to package their tarball | 08:16 |
| Chipzz | (like vmware) | 08:16 |
| wasabi | Got me. | 08:16 |
| wasabi | Probably up to whomever does the packaging. | 08:16 |
| wasabi | I would sure like to see vmware distribute vmware though. I'm not a fan of this commercial repository stuff. | 08:16 |
| Chipzz | vmware is not in dapper-commercial btw | 08:16 |
| Chipzz | it's in universe I think | 08:16 |
| wasabi | vmware-player is in multiverse or some such right? | 08:17 |
| Lathiat | vmware is in multiverse | 08:17 |
| Chipzz | yeah | 08:17 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt I pine about some stuff there. =) | 08:17 |
| wasabi | I would love it if we supported ISVs in supporting us. | 08:17 |
| wasabi | So they could push their own updates on their own schedules. | 08:17 |
| wasabi | But take advantage of our great package management framework, etc. | 08:17 |
| wasabi | Also update-manager and friends. | 08:18 |
| cjwatson | Ubiquity/DriverUpdates is progress towards that on one front that's perhaps slightly different from what you've been thinking of | 08:18 |
| wasabi | Yeah, it is. | 08:18 |
| wasabi | I really speak more about the propriatary world. | 08:18 |
| Chipzz | vmware should ship a new version compiled against latest dbus btw | 08:18 |
| cjwatson | remains to be seen what the vendor takeup would be | 08:18 |
| Chipzz | (and latest libsexy) | 08:18 |
| wasabi | I think it's a simple reality that all vendors will not want to put their software in our repository. | 08:18 |
| Chipzz | I poked chipx86 about that, but got no response | 08:19 |
| wasabi | Nor go through us to update/manage that. | 08:19 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: Also, as an example, vmware could depend on gtk>=2.5 <= 2.6 or some such. | 08:19 |
| wasabi | Or whatever gtk's no-ABI-change policy is | 08:19 |
| Chipzz | wasabi: gtk+ is not a problem, really | 08:19 |
| Chipzz | dbus is | 08:19 |
| wasabi | So, the upgrade to feisty would pop up and say "I can't do this. You've installed a third party piece of software. They need to update first." | 08:19 |
| wasabi | "Go talk to them." | 08:20 |
| wasabi | Same diff. | 08:20 |
| Chipzz | no not really ;) | 08:20 |
| wasabi | How so? | 08:20 |
| Chipzz | gtk+ is supposed not to be removing/changes functions throughout the 2.0 series | 08:20 |
| Chipzz | dbus did change api | 08:21 |
| wasabi | That's fine. The vmware guys know what version is going to be shipped in feisty. | 08:21 |
| wasabi | They can procuce updated packages. Smae way MS developers all "get ready for vista" and stuff. | 08:21 |
| wasabi | With the end goal being of course that Ubuntu is the only Linux distro that ISVs care to target. ;0 | 08:21 |
| Chipzz | yeah but they seem reluctant to do so | 08:21 |
| wasabi | I don't think we engage them enough. | 08:22 |
| Chipzz | the problem with the dbus api is not just the library | 08:22 |
| wasabi | I've worked with MS ISVs for ages. There are classes you can go to. Services you can buy, programs you can sign up for. | 08:22 |
| wasabi | All with teh aim of having the entire ecosystem ready for Vista. | 08:22 |
| Chipzz | the bigger issue with dbus is the bus protocol (which is also an api) | 08:22 |
| wasabi | It's a matter of us, after freeze, talking to ISVs and helping them get their software in order. | 08:22 |
| Chipzz | so, has that happened for vmware yet? :) | 08:23 |
| wasabi | Nope. | 08:23 |
| wasabi | It was one of the reasons I went to UDS... just couldn't get many people to care. | 08:23 |
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| okaratas | hi | 08:24 |
| wasabi | I think TD showed up, and the entire time was spent talking about autopackage. | 08:24 |
| wasabi | Or, less talking, and more arguing? | 08:24 |
| imbrandon | moins fellas | 08:25 |
| bluefoxicy | Question | 08:25 |
| === imbrandon hides | ||
| bluefoxicy | 1) If I check a bug as a security vulnerability, does it become invisible? | 08:25 |
| imbrandon | afaik yes | 08:26 |
| === Arrogance [n=aks@ottawa-hs-64-26-148-159.d-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| bluefoxicy | 2) Should I check a failure to enforce memory protections (PROT_EXEC) as a vuln? | 08:26 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: I have a real strong feeling that stuff like that is why we aren't gaining traction as fast as we'd like among the ISVs. | 08:26 |
| wasabi | Our community and their... company... just run on different things. | 08:26 |
| bluefoxicy | I have a test case to show the failure | 08:26 |
| wasabi | MS really has that figured out well. | 08:26 |
| Chipzz | autopackage is the biggest pile of crap to come out of the open source community | 08:26 |
| wasabi | Haha. | 08:26 |
| wasabi | That's basically the position I took, with less nasty words. ;) | 08:26 |
| wasabi | Chipzz: So, honestly, as somebody in Vmware (you are still there right?) what do you think the interest would be from their side? | 08:27 |
| Chipzz | wasabi: I'm not ;) | 08:27 |
| === Chipzz != chipx86 ;) | ||
| wasabi | ahh. | 08:27 |
| wasabi | Oh. | 08:27 |
| wasabi | mistaken identity! | 08:28 |
| Chipzz | I did try nagging him though ;) | 08:28 |
| Chipzz | (in a polite way :)) | 08:28 |
| wasabi | Who are you then? :) | 08:28 |
| Chipzz | that happens often ;) | 08:28 |
| === imbrandon is brandon </sarcasim> | ||
| === bhale is brandon too | ||
| Chipzz | just some random guy who has contributed some minor things to gnome and ubuntu | 08:28 |
| bluefoxicy | oh screw it | 08:28 |
| Chipzz | patches mostly | 08:28 |
| wasabi | ahh | 08:28 |
| bluefoxicy | I'll just leave it out in the open | 08:28 |
| Chipzz | and I have been in the gnome packaging team several years ago | 08:29 |
| Chipzz | (RH packaging) | 08:29 |
| wasabi | Anyways, so, I sort of think it's something somebody up in the Canonical stratosphere is going to have to do. | 08:29 |
| wasabi | Ya know, it's marketing at it's heart. | 08:29 |
| Chipzz | unofficial rpms | 08:29 |
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| bluefoxicy | malone #75157 | 08:33 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 75157 in linux-source-2.6.19 "noexec doesn't apply on 32-bit AMD64" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/75157 | 08:33 |
| === kripkenstein__ [n=alon@DSL217-132-189-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Ex-Chat"] | ||
| keescook | bluefoxicy: you have to enable PAE memory layout for nx to work in the 32bit kernel (on nx-enabled hardware) | 08:49 |
| bluefoxicy | keescook: Isn't that enabled? | 08:50 |
| keescook | bluefoxicy: I don't think it is by default on the 32bit kernels because it a performance hit. | 08:50 |
| keescook | and this is just what I remember from digging around in the kernel code trying to figure out why nx wasn't working | 08:50 |
| bluefoxicy | keescook: someone needs to turn that on then~ | 08:51 |
| bluefoxicy | HIGHMEM4G is set | 08:51 |
| kylem | no. we don't. | 08:52 |
| === humbolt [n=elias@213-147-185-150.ADSL.ycn.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| bluefoxicy | kylem: and why not? | 08:52 |
| kylem | if you run a server-bigiron kernel, it will work. | 08:54 |
| bluefoxicy | so security doesn't matter for desktops? | 08:55 |
| mjg59 | bluefoxicy: Do tell us when you've stopped beating your wife | 08:55 |
| bluefoxicy | You are aware that every Ubuntu desktop system now has an executable stack and heap in every process, right? | 08:55 |
| bluefoxicy | mjg59: I don't have a wife | 08:55 |
| kylem | so does everyone else. | 08:55 |
| mjg59 | bluefoxicy: Security matters for desktops. So do other things. | 08:56 |
| kylem | things which don't matter for desktops: #1) addressing 36-bits of physical memory. | 08:56 |
| bluefoxicy | kylem: I don't care about 36-bits of physical memory. | 08:56 |
| bluefoxicy | I care about not being able to blissfully execute memory that's not supposed to be executed. | 08:57 |
| bluefoxicy | bah, I'm going to throw this at devel@ | 09:00 |
| kylem | itym devel-discuss. | 09:00 |
| bluefoxicy | itym?? | 09:00 |
| bluefoxicy | this is stupid, what was the point of fixing #49192 and #49283 | 09:03 |
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| cjwatson | "I think you mean" | 09:09 |
| bluefoxicy | there is no devel-discuss | 09:11 |
| cjwatson | bluefoxicy: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-December/000227.html | 09:11 |
| bluefoxicy | cjwatson: well, http://www.ubuntu.com/community/lists doesn't list it so I didn't post there. | 09:12 |
| bluefoxicy | (yes I looked when he said that) | 09:12 |
| bluefoxicy | it's not on the full list either. | 09:12 |
| cjwatson | the canonical list of Ubuntu mailing lists is on http://lists.ubuntu.com/, not there | 09:12 |
| bluefoxicy | nope, it's not | 09:13 |
| cjwatson | it not being on lists.u.c is a bug, which I'll file in RT now | 09:13 |
| bluefoxicy | https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ re? | 09:13 |
| cjwatson | https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss | 09:13 |
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| bluefoxicy | well there you go. | 09:14 |
| cjwatson | should be sorted out shortly | 09:14 |
| bluefoxicy | heh, it would help if I actually read the list instead of just posting to it; it's the third message down | 09:15 |
| bluefoxicy | also I'm no longer allowed to post to it, yay. | 09:15 |
| cjwatson | "it"? | 09:15 |
| bluefoxicy | the list... ubuntu-devel.. am I the only one that has any context? | 09:15 |
| cjwatson | there were two possible referents, the other of which is ubuntu-devel-discuss | 09:16 |
| cjwatson | messages to ubuntu-devel are moderated, and will be approved if appropriate. if you don't think you'll ever post any appropriate messages, well, I suppose that speaks for itself | 09:16 |
| bluefoxicy | I think I'll be adding a new filter to my mailbox. | 09:17 |
| cjwatson | https://bugs.launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/75163 | 09:18 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 75163 in ubuntu-website "/community/lists should mention ubuntu-devel-discuss" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] | 09:18 |
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| somerville32 | Someone should change the topic in here | 09:28 |
| somerville32 | "Home of the #ubuntu and #kubuntu operators" -> "Home of the #ubuntu, #xubuntu, and #kubuntu operators" | 09:28 |
| somerville32 | ... | 09:28 |
| somerville32 | Wrong channel. | 09:28 |
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| mdke | somerville32: saw your question in -doc earlier. Documentation is subject to the same SRU procedure. | 10:02 |
| somerville32 | mdke: So documentation doesn't qualify for an SRU? | 10:05 |
| mdke | somerville32: it can do, in the circumstances specified by the StableReleaseUpdates wiki page | 10:07 |
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| somerville32 | mdke: Why not have a more lenient SRU policy for documentation due to the low risk of regression? | 10:09 |
| desrt | (low risk and low impact) | 10:10 |
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| rmjb | what's Adam Conrad's irc handle? | 10:13 |
| mdke | somerville32: I don't know, that's the policy | 10:13 |
| mdke | rmjb: infinity | 10:13 |
| rmjb | thanks | 10:13 |
| mdke | somerville32: maybe there can be more lenience in the application of the policy | 10:14 |
| rmjb | infinity: I'm gonna try to tackle merging xbvl | 10:14 |
| mdke | somerville32: try and see | 10:14 |
| somerville32 | fabbione, ping | 10:14 |
| somerville32 | mdke: k | 10:14 |
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| raphink | anyone has had network issues with feisty? | 11:14 |
| raphink | I keep losing my IP | 11:14 |
| raphink | and I can't add routes | 11:14 |
| raphink | it says | 11:14 |
| raphink | SIOCADDRT: Network not available | 11:15 |
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| deltab | raphink: you should ask in #ubuntu, if you haven't already | 11:22 |
| raphink | how so deltab? | 11:22 |
| raphink | I'll go ask in #ubuntu+1 rather | 11:22 |
| raphink | :) | 11:22 |
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| deltab | it just sounds like a support issue, and the topic says this isn't the channel for that | 11:23 |
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