[02:47] <MagicFab> what's the licence of content at https://help.ubuntu.com/community ? Like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto/ScanModem ?
[02:49] <dsas_> MagicFab: funny subject. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
[02:50] <dsas_> hi david_corrales Are you having any luck with scrollkeeper?
[02:50] <david_corrales> heya
[02:50] <david_corrales> actually I got the advice I was looking for
[02:51] <MagicFab> dsas, so it's currently *unlicensed* ???
[02:51] <david_corrales> thanks for your interest :)
[02:51] <MagicFab> (well, (C) Canonical)
[02:51] <david_corrales> it was all about putting the docs inside /usr/share/gnome/help
[02:51] <david_corrales> to get them available through ghelp:name
[02:52] <dsas_> MagicFab: Theoretically it's copyright Canonical yes.
[02:53] <MagicFab> !
[02:53] <dsas_> MagicFab: At least as far as I understand, I've not had anything to do with the discussions... the spec drafters are your best bet...
[02:55] <jjesse> i thought we were moving to cc-by-sa or something
[02:55] <jjesse> i can't keep it striaght eitehr
[02:55] <tonyyarusso> MagicFab: You get a glimpse of the headaches this is causing ;)
[02:55] <tonyyarusso> jjesse: They're trying to straighten it out, yes.
[02:55] <MagicFab> Well, I just came across a translation of those docs with a more restrictive licence
[02:56] <MagicFab> I just assumed it was all GFDL !
[02:56] <dsas_> jjesse: We are for the non-wiki docs, and I think it was/is intended to move the wiki docs to that license too
[02:57] <jjesse> i just let mdke_ take care of the licensing ;)
[02:57] <jjesse> i trust him
[02:57] <jjesse> i know the docs got/are getting relecincesd to match the official ubuntu book
[02:58] <dsas_> MagicFab: No-one ever stuck a license on the wiki. Hence all the problems it's causing, the "everything is owned by canonical" is something that's been thrown into the argument since I was last up to date with it.
[02:59] <tonyyarusso> dsas_: The way I've heard it is that it legally belongs to the vague legal entity of "the doc team", but I dunno
[02:59] <dsas_> tonyyarusso: That goes for the shipped docs, but not the wiki docs afaik
[03:00] <tonyyarusso> Some of the wiki docs are the shipped docs though
[03:00] <tonyyarusso> Clear as a whirlpool in a mudpuddle
[03:00] <dsas_> tonyyarusso: heh, exactly.
[03:01] <dsas_> david_corrales: Cool, how are the jokosher docs coming along?
[03:02] <MagicFab> Found the thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-November/007322.html
[03:02] <david_corrales> dsas_: well, I'm doing the final installation bits. Then, I'll have to tag the manual itself
[03:02] <MagicFab> Seems the spec was not accepted for a sprint at UDS, so it's been delayed
[03:02] <david_corrales> it needs updating and new secionts
[03:02] <david_corrales> sections*
[03:05] <dsas_> MagicFab: that thread is about the shipped docs (the ones not in h.u.c/community)
[03:05] <MagicFab> huh
[03:05] <dsas_> at least as I understand it...
[03:06] <dsas_> MagicFab: There should be threads (and CC meeting logs) about the wiki licensing somewhere, though it's been going on for ages..
[03:08] <jjesse> mdke_ has been working for a long time on licesnign the wiki
[03:08] <jjesse> that's preety much all i know :)
[03:11] <MagicFab> Aren't the shipped docs bases on the community docs ?
[03:12] <jjesse> some of them are
[08:45] <mdke_> morning
[08:45] <Madpilot> hi mdke_
[08:46] <LaserJock> hi mdke_
[08:48] <somerville32> hi mdke_
[08:55] <mdke_> how's it going?
[08:56] <LaserJock> it's going :-)
[08:57] <mdke_> good
[08:59] <somerville32> :] 
[10:02] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu-server]  Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and support)
[01:10] <twosouls82> hi all :)
[01:10] <willvdl> hi there
[01:18] <twosouls82> I edited https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades
[01:18] <twosouls82> can someone check it?
[01:19] <twosouls82> I saved it a couple of times, my bad, sorry
[01:20] <twosouls82> I edited because I had to use "sudo apt-get install --reinstall xserver-xorg" to get x working after upgrade instead of what was stated there
[01:22] <tonyyarusso> What did it say before?  *curious*
[01:23] <twosouls82> sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg, I left that notice below my edit ;)
[01:23] <twosouls82> so you could revert
[01:24] <tonyyarusso> Hmm.  I'm not familiar with the case in question, but seems to me 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg' would be preferred to reinstalling.  Don't know though.
[01:24] <twosouls82> tonyyarusso: true, that was below the reinstall option, so I moved it up one
[01:25] <tonyyarusso> ah
[01:41] <twosouls82> tonyyarusso: should I make it clearer that the reconfiguration is sufficient? (was on the phone)
[01:42] <tonyyarusso> twosouls82: If one works for sure, simplify it to only that.  If it usually works, but the other may be necessary, say it like that.
[01:43] <twosouls82> I will go for the last on e:)
[02:07] <twosouls82> tonyyarusso: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades
[02:08] <twosouls82> fixed, finally, a lot of phone calls which I couldn't ignore
[02:08] <twosouls82> grrr
[02:08] <twosouls82> and I am not a multitasker
[02:09] <tonyyarusso> twosouls82: Looks pretty good
[02:09] <twosouls82> good
[02:09] <twosouls82> merci tonyyarusso for the feedback
[02:09] <twosouls82> btw, I am allowed to edit and add documentation? who coordinates this?
[02:10] <twosouls82> I just did without asking =)
[02:11] <tonyyarusso> That's basically how it works yes, although if you haven't done it much having folks look over your work is a great idea.  (There's also a doc-team mailing list you may be interested in)
[02:12] <twosouls82> tonyyarusso: I am looking for a regulation on the docs, does it exist too?
[02:12] <tonyyarusso> twosouls82: There's a Howto and guidelines, but I don't have the URLs handy
[02:13] <tonyyarusso> I'd start at /DocumentationTeam
[02:13] <twosouls82> np, I will Google harder now that I know it does exists
[02:13] <twosouls82> kay
[02:16] <tonyyarusso> yay
[02:16] <twosouls82> s/need/needs/
[02:16] <twosouls82> w00t w00t
[09:30] <mihakriket> I am working on some of the wiki documents but I have a general question. The wiki documents are the purpose of the wiki to provide the user with a howto on the subject or where to find information on the subject?
[09:33] <LaserJock> mihakriket: well, they could be a bit of both
[09:34] <LaserJock> depends on the subject and how big it is
[09:35] <theCore> LaserJock: hi
[09:36] <LaserJock> sorry I missed the CC meeting, congrats
[09:36] <somerville32> Hi
[09:36] <theCore> LaserJock: thanks
[09:37] <LaserJock> theCore: for some reason I thought the meeting was tomorrow
[09:37] <mihakriket> I am working on a document in reguards to the commandline. I asked for feedback from people on features they would like to see in the document. My feedback I received had to do with BASH scripting. During my research on the subject, I found alot of already written guides.
[09:37] <LaserJock> mihakriket: I think a bit of both would be good
[09:38] <theCore> mihakriket: or the one doing the Advanced Command Line guide?
[09:38] <LaserJock> like have a few common examples in the wiki and then link to "For more information try:"
[09:41] <theCore> mihakriket: oh, yes it's you
[09:42] <theCore> I'm the guy who sent the list of suggestions on the mailing list :)
[09:42] <mihakriket> theCore: that is the reason why I asked the question, I wanted to get an idea of how to present the info.
[09:42] <mihakriket> Oh, ok. Did you get my email back on that?
[09:42] <theCore> mihakriket: yes
[09:43] <theCore> mihakriket: Obviously, writing a such guide will be hard
[09:45] <mihakriket> theCore: What did you think of the idea of having a seperate document on just BASH scripting?
[09:45] <theCore> the biggest challenge is to make the guide easy to read, so people without much experience can understand the content
[09:45] <theCore> mihakriket: I think you shouldn't cover BASH scripting
[09:46] <theCore> there's a lot of good guides out there about Bash scripting
[09:46] <theCore> you should really focus on the command line power tools
[09:48] <theCore> so, it should focus on "being productive with the command line"
[09:49] <mihakriket> That's what I was thinking too. I was going to use the suggestion about the different shells in a section.
[09:49] <theCore> I loves Zsh
[09:50] <LaserJock> I've seen a lot of bash scripting documentation
[09:50] <LaserJock> it would be nice to have a "Command-Line Productivity" guide
[09:50] <theCore> I think Bash scripting should be forbidden ...
[09:52] <theCore> mihakriket: where will you write the document?
[09:52] <mihakriket> I have added command line navagation, such as keystrokes as well as info on the history command. I was going to add a section about alias and env variables as well. I was going to remove the section on scripting.
[09:53] <mihakriket> theCore: I am updating the current document in the wiki.
[09:53] <theCore> URL?
[09:54] <mihakriket> theCore: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdvancedCommandlineHowto?highlight=%28commandline%29
[09:54] <theCore> thanks
[10:04] <mihakriket> theCore: what do you think of the document?
[10:05] <theCore> mihakriket: not bad. I need some structure, tough
[10:08] <mihakriket> I have just started to edit the document, so I am just brain storming.
[10:09] <theCore> mihakriket: have you seen: http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/courses/build/shell-scripting/index.html ?
[10:12] <mihakriket> theCore: thanks, I will look at the doc. I was thinking of removing the scripting portion of the doc, this was in their before I starting editing the doc.
[10:15] <theCore> mihakriket: I'm writing something about shell globbing and regex
[10:20] <mihakriket> theCore: I added a wildcard section in the CommandLine howto on the wiki. Maybe I can add a link to your document in the advance commandline doc?
[10:24] <mihakriket> theCore: I was going to add a section about regex but I will not, no use in redundancy in the wiki.
[10:26] <theCore> ?
[10:26] <theCore> the wiki doesn't contain a regex guide...
[10:29] <mihakriket> theCore: I was going to add a section on regex in the advance commandline doc. regex is used by some commands such as grep or awk correct?
[10:30] <theCore> mostly grep
[10:30] <theCore> not in AWK
[10:33] <LaserJock> ?
[10:33] <LaserJock> I think regex are used in awk, sed,  a lot of tools
[10:33] <mihakriket> theCore: ok.
[10:34] <mihakriket> LaeserJock: that was what I was thinking, I was just double checking on that as we speak.
[10:34] <theCore> mihakriket: nevermind, awk uses regex
[10:34] <theCore> just a very weird type of regex
[10:35] <mihakriket> theCore: let me know when the document is completed, I will add a link in the Advanced commandline doc.
[10:35] <theCore> mihakriket: ok
[11:20] <nixternal> i will say this everyone, we are definitely better doc wise then our mother Debian
[11:21] <nixternal> i have been scouring their docs today looking for some info, and it isn't that great
[11:30] <willvdl> hey nixternal, I remember seeing a discussion on why docs are not in bzr but can't seem to locate it anymore.
[11:30] <willvdl> any pointers?
[11:30] <LaserJock> willvdl: why the ubuntu docs aren't?
[11:31] <LaserJock> we had a dicussion at our last meeting and a little follow up on the mailing list
[11:31] <mihakriket> nixternal: Do you mean the quality of the docs are the amount of docs?
[11:32] <willvdl> LaserJock, ubuntu-docs etc. yeah
[11:32] <willvdl> I'll check minutes and mailing list. I jsut rememebr _something_ on the wiki
[11:32] <LaserJock> hmm
[11:33] <willvdl> I'm grappling with the seperation of "release docs" and "dynamic docs"
[11:33] <LaserJock> mhm
[11:33] <willvdl> meaning e.g. About Ubuntu is a release doc.
[11:33] <nixternal> mihakriket: both actually
[11:34] <willvdl> it gets packaged and appears on CD, etc.
[11:34] <nixternal> we have more info on pbuilder than debian does in our system docs (packaging guide) and definitely our wiki
[11:34] <LaserJock> willvdl: what would be a dynamic doc? generally I would think of wiki pages as dynamic docs
[11:34] <willvdl> and then dynamic docs appear on the wiki (or pilfered from forum)
[11:34] <willvdl> LaserJock, yeah
[11:35] <LaserJock> nixternal: it depends, they have much better policy documentation. We have better "guides"
[11:35] <willvdl> but... some docs (or planned docs) are going to be dynamic
[11:35] <willvdl> for example Edubuntu School Advocacy: needs to reflect releases but is also going to be constantly updates as marketing material
[11:36] <LaserJock> yep
[11:36] <LaserJock> I think you'll always have that to some degree
[11:36] <willvdl> so where does one keep it?
[11:36] <LaserJock> same place
[11:36] <willvdl> not on the wiki and the svn is too release specific
[11:36] <willvdl> so was wondering about bzr
[11:36] <LaserJock> we use svn for it
[11:37] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that bzr has an advantage over svn in that regard exactly
[11:37] <LaserJock> it's more of the packaging and build structure
[11:37] <willvdl> LaserJock, currently the svn contains ubuntu-doc
[11:37] <willvdl> which gets packaged and shipped
[11:38] <LaserJock> not all of it
[11:38] <willvdl> good point
[11:38] <LaserJock> you could have both release and dynamic docs in there
[11:38] <LaserJock> you just branch and build for release docs
[11:39] <LaserJock> while the dynamic docs are just built as needed
[11:39] <willvdl> hmmm
[11:40] <LaserJock> bzr might give you a more flexibilty
[11:40] <willvdl> where would one put dynamic docs? in the trunk under seperate directory or seperate branch?
[11:40] <LaserJock> doesn't matter
[11:41] <willvdl> well, it's not really a branch per se
[11:41] <LaserJock> to build the release docs we have Makefiles, you just don't build/install the dynamic ones
[11:41] <LaserJock> for instance currently ESA isn't shipped
[11:41] <LaserJock> so it's a dynamic doc in that sense
[11:41] <willvdl> but it is built in the makefile
[11:42] <LaserJock> not in any package
[11:42] <LaserJock> so we build it for the website I believe
[11:42] <willvdl> aha
[11:42] <LaserJock> but it's not a release doc currently by your definition
[11:43] <willvdl> right
[11:43] <willvdl> even though ti uses the same makefile
[11:43] <LaserJock> so it's more about how you build them then where you put them
[11:43] <LaserJock> well, a single makefile can do many different things
[11:44] <LaserJock> more importantly in this case is the packaging
[11:44] <willvdl> okie. I need to read up on the reasoning behind bzr vs svn. imagine it's an interesting read
[11:44] <willvdl> I see your point
[11:44] <LaserJock> I think the bzr site has some interesting stuff
[11:44] <willvdl> who does the packaging?
[11:45] <LaserJock> well, generally mdke or I for ubunt-docs
[11:45] <LaserJock> mostl Riddell for kubuntu-docs
[11:45] <theCore> mihakriket: I think I'm done
[11:45] <willvdl> and where is it tracked what is packaged?
[11:45] <LaserJock> it's in the svn repo
[11:46] <LaserJock> under debian/ and kubuntu/debian/
[11:46] <willvdl> aha
[11:47] <willvdl> does https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+source/ubuntu-docs enter into it?
[11:47] <LaserJock> well, that is the source package that get's uploaded
[11:48] <LaserJock> it's a snapshot of the svn repo
[11:48] <mihakriket> theCore: good deal. What is the url?
[11:48] <theCore> mihakriket: I didn't uploaded yet
[11:48] <theCore> just a sec
[11:48] <willvdl> brill. LaserJock, thanks
[11:49] <LaserJock> we'll have an edubuntu-docs package soon enough
[11:49] <willvdl> cool.
[11:49] <mihakriket> theCore: Are you posting the document into the wiki?
[11:50] <LaserJock> we mostly just need to get enough content to replace ubuntu-docs
[11:50] <willvdl> LaserJock, it gets tricky when some of our docs are essentially marketing stuff
[11:50] <LaserJock> well, we can have release and dynamics docs side-by-side no problem
[11:50] <willvdl> how is the automatic inclusion of ubuntu-doc material (for sake of reducing duplication) going to work?
[11:51] <LaserJock> we won't
[11:51] <willvdl> by hand then at snapshot time
[11:51] <willvdl> until Topic-Based comes into effect
[11:51] <LaserJock> well, what I'm saying is the idea is to totally replace the ubuntu-docs with edubuntu-docs
[11:51] <theCore> mihakriket: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ShellGlobbing
[11:53] <willvdl> LaserJock, so edubuntu-doc being only value-add info
[11:53] <LaserJock> edubuntu-doc being complete documentation for an Edubuntu system
[11:54] <LaserJock> i.e. ubuntu-doc won't be installed
[11:54] <willvdl> edubuntu being based on ubuntu, there is bound to be overlap of info
[11:54] <LaserJock> yep
[11:54] <LaserJock> but the idea was that the Edubuntu Handbook would be that
[11:55] <LaserJock> perhaps we will need to copy over the Ubuntu desktopguide I'm not sure
[11:55] <LaserJock> depends on how far along the handbook gets
[11:55] <willvdl> LaserJock, it is bound to go that way
[11:56] <willvdl> it is impractical for the handbook to cover edubuntu & base ubuntu info
[11:56] <willvdl> impractical for the authors
[11:56] <LaserJock> yeah, well ...
[11:57] <LaserJock> we could install ubuntu-docs as well
[11:57] <LaserJock> but then we start getting into space issues
[11:57] <willvdl> not necessarily install ubuntu-doc
[11:58] <willvdl> but at least pull sections
[11:58] <LaserJock> it'll be some work, but doable
[11:58] <willvdl> less work than rewriting
[11:58] <LaserJock> somebody needs to lead some effort there ;-)
[11:58] <willvdl> that's what I'm trying to do :)
[11:59] <willvdl> but need to understand the history etc.
[11:59] <LaserJock> I think pygi's original goal was to create a full-fledged Edubuntu book
[11:59] <LaserJock> that would go to a publisher
[11:59] <LaserJock> and be shipped as the complete Edubuntu documentation
[11:59] <theCore> mihakriket: the foo, bar examples should be changed to "real world" examples
[11:59] <willvdl> LaserJock, still the goal only we're going broader
[12:00] <willvdl> we want to target specific audiences with specific information
[12:00] <LaserJock> ok, so I think it'd be a wise thing to do to use the doc team for the release docs and non-marketing stuff
[12:01] <willvdl> cbx33, jsut in time :)
[12:01] <LaserJock> and then set up a bzr repo tied to an LP team for the marketing stuff
[12:01] <willvdl> was my thinking
[12:01] <cbx33> sounds good
[12:01] <mihakriket> theCore: Where do you upload your docs? I have been editing docs on the wiki.
[12:01] <cbx33> was what we were thinking right willvdl ?
[12:01] <LaserJock> we've consistently had trouble getting Edubuntu people to contribute to the doc team
[12:01] <willvdl> one way is to continue authoring of handbook as original goal
[12:01] <willvdl> cbx33 yeah
[12:01] <theCore> mihakriket: ^^
[12:02] <theCore> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ShellGlobbing
[12:02] <willvdl> and then draw info from it for other purposes as needed.
[12:02] <willvdl> LaserJock, this way I hope to leverage more contribution from the marketing team
[12:03] <LaserJock> yeah, that would be good
[12:03] <willvdl> and don't want to dilute the doc team too much
[12:03] <willvdl> there is an edubuntu doc team
[12:03] <LaserJock> IMO, there shouldn't be
[12:03] <LaserJock> on LP anyway
[12:03] <mihakriket> theCore: I saw the doc, I mean how do people upload docs to the help.ubuntu.com site?
[12:03] <willvdl> exactly
[12:03] <theCore> mihakriket: just invent your own url
[12:04] <theCore> mihakriket: then, edit and post
[12:04] <willvdl> in effect it appears, but we miss the boat by seperating from it
[12:04] <LaserJock> the doc team has very good resources for documentation
[12:04] <willvdl> and many reviewers
[12:04] <LaserJock> and Edubuntu has kind of been the last team to get onboard
[12:05] <willvdl> so keep LP doc team
[12:05] <willvdl> with ubuntu-doc project
[12:05] <willvdl> and edubuntu-doc as another product
[12:05] <LaserJock> I'm not sure how it all works
[12:05] <cbx33> ;)
[12:06] <LaserJock> but the issue is less with LP and more with people
[12:06] <willvdl> LaserJock, spent an hour with salgado :)
[12:06] <LaserJock> with Kubuntu, the doc guys are a part of the doc team
[12:06] <willvdl> but it still needs to be tracked with minimum effort
[12:07] <cbx33> totally
[12:07] <willvdl> so intelligent use of LP and wiki is key
[12:07] <LaserJock> we just need people working and joining the team, I really have had a hard time understanding why Edubuntu people seem to not get that
[12:07] <cbx33> :( - I have to get off to bed now....
[12:07] <cbx33> up in about 6 hours
[12:08] <willvdl> cbx33, up in 5 hours :P
[12:08] <cbx33> please please willvdl could you send me a quick mail about what we decide ;)
[12:08] <cbx33> then I'll get it fleshed out for the summary page ;)
[12:08] <willvdl> cbx33, will do and check ubuntu-doc logs tomorrow
[12:09] <willvdl> LaserJock, technical docs are always tedious
[12:09] <willvdl> but I think we can curry favour on the marketing side
[12:10] <LaserJock> well, we get people and then nothing happens
[12:10] <LaserJock> that's been my issue
[12:10] <LaserJock> they need to be joining the doc team and getting involved
[12:10] <willvdl> well, our community is smaller
[12:11] <LaserJock> what I'm saying is don't think of it as edubuntu docs
[12:11] <willvdl> LaserJock, was suggesting to cbx33 an open letter - call for contributions to doc-team community
[12:11] <LaserJock> but as ubuntu doc people working on edubuntu
[12:11] <willvdl> LaserJock, that's been my take since the beginning
[12:11] <mihakriket> theCore: How do create a url?
[12:11] <LaserJock> I think that's what we've missed for a while
[12:11] <willvdl> I'm slowly populating the doc team wiki with edubuntu references
[12:12] <dsas> mihakriket: Just type it in your browsers address bar
[12:12] <willvdl> and eventually specs into LP
[12:12] <dsas> mihakriket: Or you can create a link using [:PageName: page name]  syntax
[12:12] <LaserJock> what seems to happen is a few people get all excited but they just stay a closed little team
[12:12] <cbx33> nn
[12:12] <cbx33> see ya willvdl and LaserJock
[12:13] <willvdl> nn
[12:14] <willvdl> LaserJock, I'm here to try and track/manage that.
[12:14] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:14] <LaserJock> I'm glad you're here :-)
[12:14] <willvdl> won't have time to author much unfortunately
[12:14] <willvdl> which I'd like since I've done a looot of that in the past
[12:14] <LaserJock> I guess what I'm saying is that the biggest problem from my standpoint is not a technological one, but a social one
[12:15] <willvdl> I hear you
[12:15] <LaserJock> we have everything in place for an edubuntu doc team
[12:15] <LaserJock> we just need people to join and work
[12:15] <LaserJock> instead of wandering off trying to reinvent the wheel
[12:16] <willvdl> well, lemme look deeper at LP, maybe we can keep the edubuntu doc SUB-team
[12:16] <LaserJock> so I think if you can push people toward the doc team
[12:16] <LaserJock> perhaps
[12:16] <willvdl> and move subscriptions up
[12:16] <LaserJock> but you can do the whole thing without LP if you want
[12:16] <willvdl> actually, nah, still makes no sense
[12:17] <LaserJock> I think the an edubuntu-marketing team might be better to house the marketing stuff
[12:17] <willvdl> LaserJock, LP works nicely for bugs, reviewing, proofing etc.