[12:17] <LaserJock> willvdl: yes, but we already have that
[12:17] <cbx33> listening.....
[12:17] <willvdl> :)
[12:17] <cbx33> in bed.....
[12:18] <theCore> when is the next docteam meeting?
[12:18] <LaserJock> whenever we schedule one
[12:18] <theCore> ah, ok
[12:18] <willvdl> LaserJock, again an edubuntu marketing team jsut dilutes the current one
[12:18] <LaserJock> willvdl: there is no kubuntu-doc team on LP
[12:19] <cbx33> hmmm.....
[12:19] <willvdl> agreed on that point: edubuntu-doc team is dilution
[12:19] <LaserJock> well, but it serves a purpose if you use it to house the marketing docs in bzr
[12:19] <cbx33> agreed
[12:19] <LaserJock> I can see creating edubuntu-* if it is actually doing something
[12:19] <willvdl> well, no reason why that can't be done out of ubuntu-marketing either
[12:20] <cbx33> also helps with organization
[12:20] <LaserJock> perhaps, you'd have to talk with them about it
[12:20] <LaserJock> anyway, if you look at Kubuntu
[12:20] <willvdl> exactly
[12:21] <LaserJock> who is quite a bit more different than Ubuntu then Edubuntu is
[12:21] <LaserJock> they have a rocking doc team
[12:21] <LaserJock> and I think a lot of it has to do with not trying to split everything up
[12:22] <willvdl> agreed. no splitting :)
[12:22] <cbx33> ;)
[12:22] <willvdl> instead of creating new sub-teams, rather create spec/features that certain folk can subscribe too
[12:22] <LaserJock> so all that really needs to be done is getting people excited about joining the doc team
[12:23] <willvdl> and the other way around
[12:23] <willvdl> getting doc team excited about helping edubuntu :] 
[12:23] <LaserJock> well, we have been
[12:23] <LaserJock> consistently
[12:23] <willvdl> I know
[12:23] <cbx33> laserjock, are we using svn/bzr?
[12:23] <LaserJock> and I've felt like Edubuntu has snubbed them time after time
[12:24] <willvdl> working on it.
[12:24] <LaserJock> I know it's not intentional, but it gets a little old waving our hands saying "We're here and we want to help!" and nobody shows up
[12:25] <LaserJock> Mattew East even wrote an Edubuntu css for the docs
[12:25] <LaserJock> I said I'm always willing to commit things
[12:25] <LaserJock> nixternal has been fixing xml and maintaining a branch of the handbook
[12:26] <willvdl> yeah, he's helped me quite a bit
[12:26] <LaserJock> so I'm not trying to be down on you at all
[12:26] <willvdl> what about more svn access?
[12:26] <LaserJock> I've just been a bit frustrated for the last 9 months because I want to see Edubuntu docs rock but I'm not really in a position to write them myself
[12:26] <cbx33> could i get svn access?
[12:27] <LaserJock> sure
[12:27] <LaserJock> svn access is not an issue
[12:27] <willvdl> cool
[12:27] <LaserJock> all we ask is that the person be an edubuntu member and show that they can "play nice" with the XML
[12:27] <cbx33> it was...but cool...that it isn't now
[12:27] <LaserJock> basically show you are a part of the team and send in some patches
[12:28] <cbx33> ok.....how do iget myself on the lst
[12:28] <LaserJock> Mark helped us out there
[12:28] <cbx33> i sent loads of patches in dapper
[12:28] <LaserJock> we did have quite a bit of a hard time getting new people added as elmo was very very busy
[12:28] <LaserJock> but that's "fixed" now
[12:29] <willvdl> LaserJock, we can continue the doc discussion in the meeting tomorrow.
[12:29] <LaserJock> yep, but honestly, we welcome people to come
[12:29] <LaserJock> but generally nobody shows up
[12:29] <LaserJock> willvdl: unfortunately the Edubuntu meeting is 4:00am for me
[12:29] <LaserJock> I doubt I'll make it
[12:29] <nixternal> edubuntu meeting is at 6am here tomorrow, which is 4am for LaserJock  ;(
[12:29] <willvdl> urk. it's 1:30 am now for me :)
[12:29] <nixternal> if i am up at 6am, i will kill myself
[12:29] <LaserJock> anyway
[12:30] <LaserJock> I would just say that the doc team is eager to see action on the Edubuntu front
[12:30] <willvdl> yes. I get the picture about the repo which is great.
[12:31] <LaserJock> and I personally will do whatever I can to help
[12:31] <cbx33> get me svn ;)
[12:31] <LaserJock> ok
[12:31] <LaserJock> I'll talk to mdke about it tomorrow
[12:31] <cbx33> cool
[12:31] <LaserJock> I know you can do valid docbook
[12:31] <willvdl> RichEd wants some targeted marketing stuff (as mentioned above) which we'll all plan around still
[12:32] <LaserJock> yeah, what I can see is some differentiation there
[12:32] <willvdl> and we'll rally contributions for the handbook which will be the mothership of info
[12:32] <cbx33> it's getting much more urgent now
[12:32] <theCore> LaserJock: can I do valid docbook?
[12:32] <theCore> :P
[12:32] <LaserJock> theCore: most of the time ;-)
[12:32] <theCore> haha
[12:33] <LaserJock> willvdl: I would just say if you can to promote joining the doc team as well as a particular doc
[12:33] <nixternal> i can't, so don't feel bad
[12:33] <LaserJock> sometimes people get a little overwhelmed
[12:33] <cbx33> nn will
[12:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: you just commit to the wrong branch ;p
[12:33] <nixternal> lol
[12:33] <willvdl> ciao cbx33
[12:33] <nixternal> shush
[12:33] <LaserJock> cya cbx33
[12:33] <cbx33> i'm still here
[12:34] <nixternal> lol
[12:34] <cbx33> thought will was off
[12:34] <willvdl> oh
[12:34] <willvdl> almost
[12:34] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm excited for you to take this on willvdl
[12:34] <willvdl> I'm paid too :)
[12:35] <cbx33> lucky
[12:35] <LaserJock> I just wanted to "vent" some of my frustrations with Edubuntu docs over the last 9months
[12:35] <willvdl> no worries. I need to know realities
[12:36] <cbx33> right i really am out now.....
[12:36] <cbx33> shattered
[12:36] <willvdl> likewise
[12:36] <LaserJock> good night guys
[12:36] <willvdl> cbx33, I'll try to follow up in the morning or else I'll have to pick things up again tomorrow night
[12:36] <LaserJock> have a good meeting tomorrow
[12:37] <cbx33>  ok
[12:37] <cbx33> nn
[12:37] <willvdl> LaserJock, thanks for your help
[12:37] <PriceChild> Hey there all..
[12:37] <LaserJock> willvdl: np
[12:37] <LaserJock> hi PriceChild
[12:37] <PriceChild> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BerylOnEdgy needs its repositories and gpg key loaction changing... but it says not to edit it
[12:37] <PriceChild> What should I do? :)
[12:38] <willvdl> LaserJock, wiki needs lots of maintenance too. working on that slowly
[12:38] <LaserJock> mhm
[12:38] <LaserJock> I'm trying to work on the MOTU wiki
[12:38] <LaserJock> I feel the pain
[12:39] <nixternal> i need to go through and rip out pieces of the Ubuntu Documentation that will pertain directly to the Edubuntu Standalone section for sure
[12:39] <PriceChild> Anyone got any ideas for me before I just go ahead and edit the things?
[12:39] <LaserJock> PriceChild: well, I'm not sure, it's also got some pretty plain issues
[12:39] <willvdl> I'm trying to remove deprecated and confusing stuff
[12:39] <nixternal> the Handbook needs a lot of writing to still be done, more goods and less smiley faces in the content. I went through and easily pulled out 100+ :) in between <para>...</para>
[12:39] <willvdl> especially old planning and proposal pages
[12:39] <LaserJock> PriceChild: if you are sure go ahead and edit it and then email the ubuntu-doc list
[12:40] <LaserJock> nixternal: ugggg
[12:40] <nixternal> hehe ya
[12:40] <willvdl> do you know if https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuDocumentation has current stff on it?
[12:40] <PriceChild> LaserJock: Because I _know_ that the amd64 repo is incorrect... I run one of the beryl mirrors and that's wrong. Also that key is _definately_ out of date.
[12:40] <nixternal> i didn't catch them until I built it, because it turned blue making me think it was &fjfldka;
[12:41] <willvdl> nixternal, like switching to dvorak key layout by mistake
[12:41] <nixternal> willvdl: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook  <- might want that listed there as well
[12:42] <willvdl> hmmm, maybe I should rather use the CategoryCleanup idea rather. What's the status on that?
[12:42] <nixternal> i had created https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook/Management to manage the sections, in order to help those out that were running the project, but they like disappeared
[12:43] <willvdl> the people or the section?
[12:43] <nixternal> truthfully, i would rm -rf /*Handbook and start fresh, there is a lot of old info and unmaintained info...almost makes since to start fresh and take control from the beginning
[12:43] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:43] <PriceChild> LaserJock: Someone's messed that guide up... the Nvidia section's split in two for some reason and half will cause adverse affects instead of helping...
[12:44] <LaserJock> PriceChild: yep, I'd email the list
[12:44] <willvdl> nixternal, was hoping you'd say that
[12:44] <nixternal> good ol https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BerylOfCrap
[12:44] <LaserJock> nixternal: so is section 1 and 2 pretty much done?
[12:44] <willvdl> nearly had a heart-attack - thought that was a valid link :)
[12:45] <PriceChild> hmm... do I have to sign up for the doc mailing list to send a message...?
[12:45] <nixternal> lol
[12:45] <nixternal> LaserJock: section 1 and 2 of what? the handbook?
[12:45] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:45] <willvdl> PriceChild, to avoid the moderation queue, yip
[12:45] <nixternal> oh no, they are half done at least, the ltsp portion definitely has the most content right now
[12:45] <nixternal> i need to take a day and just write, as it seems we aren't ready for the topic based stuff just yet
[12:46] <nixternal> need to start writing a new Kubuntu Desktop Guide as well. the current is stale and ugly to me
[12:46] <LaserJock> hmm
[12:46] <nixternal> especially after researching the other distros documentation, it needs a lot of love
[12:46] <LaserJock> it does look like basically ESA + LTSP docs
[12:47] <LaserJock> nixternal: which distros?
[12:47] <LaserJock> opensuse?
[12:47] <PriceChild> willvdl: what's the email? I'd rather send it into the queue as I can't stand the mail
[12:48] <LaserJock> PriceChild: lists.ubuntu.com
[12:48] <LaserJock> willvdl: btw, Kubuntu docs are under https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc too
[12:48] <willvdl> hmmm
[12:49] <willvdl> ok, outa here. LaserJock, I'll look into intelligent use of LP for all of this, bounce it off at the meeting and take it from there
[12:49] <nixternal> LaserJock: OpenSUSE, FC, Gentoo, Slackware, and more
[12:49] <LaserJock> willvdl: ok, good luck. I look forward to reading the meeting logs
[12:49] <willvdl> and use the wiki for LP spec tracing which is what it is _meant_ for
[12:49] <LaserJock> nixternal: and who's docs did you like the best? :-)
[12:49] <nixternal> OpenSUSE w/o a doubt
[12:49] <LaserJock> willvdl: mhm
[12:50] <willvdl> steal them :)
[12:50] <willvdl> steal them all
[12:50] <nixternal> Gentoo has some really nice docs as well
[12:50] <nixternal> their OS is garbage, but their docs are great
[12:50] <willvdl> right. really leaving this time
[12:50] <willvdl> g'night
[12:52] <LaserJock> nixternal: heh, I thought the OS was good but the docs not so much
[12:54] <nixternal> you thought gentoo was good?
[12:54] <nixternal> the gentoo docs and wiki are fairly elaborate..very well maintained
[12:55] <LaserJock> I ran Gentoo for over 2 years
[12:55] <LaserJock> dang, I'm getting the OpenSuse DVD at 4M/s
[12:55] <nixternal> i think my longest running use of a Linux OS was probably Slackware, with SuSE and Debian a close 2nd
[12:56] <LaserJock> I've never installed Slackware once
[12:56] <LaserJock> not sure why, just never did
[12:56] <nixternal> Slackware is fun, as you do all of the work, definitely not a newb friendly system
[12:57] <LaserJock> my order by longest using is Gentoo, Ubuntu, SuSE
[12:57] <nixternal> heh, you just started with SuSE didn't you?
[12:57] <LaserJock> I've never run Debian on a desktop machine
[12:57] <LaserJock> nah, I ran SuSE between Gentoo and Ubuntu
[12:58] <nixternal> desktop it was always Slackware and SuSE pretty much, I ran Debian for servers, and then for a few years ran Debian as a KDE dev desktop
[12:59] <LaserJock> right now Novell is the biggest reason I don't do much with suse
[12:59] <LaserJock> otherwise it seems like a really good distro
[12:59] <LaserJock> well, if I can get around that whole .rpm business ;-)
[01:04] <nixternal> ya
[01:04] <nixternal> im not used to rpms anymore either
[01:05] <LaserJock> well, I'm to the point where not being able to build a source package is sort of scary
[01:13] <LaserJock> nixternal: I got the 3.6GB OpenSuse DVD .iso in 16 min. ;-)
[01:13] <nixternal> nice
[01:14] <LaserJock> I love uni connections
[01:21] <nixternal> i like the Mepis Doc Project wiki layout for a front page that they have.
[01:21] <Burgwork> lets steal it
[01:22] <Burgwork> :)
[01:22] <nixternal> muhehe
[01:22] <nixternal> http://www.mepis.org/docs/en/index.php/Main_Page
[01:23] <Burgwork> I like the boxes, but the content inside the boxes doesn't grab me
[01:24] <nixternal> topically broken down, however their documentation isn't great
[01:25] <nixternal> MEPIS supports a lot of hardware out-of-the-box. There is no need to download or install extra drivers. Most hardware will just work....
[01:25] <nixternal> Unfortunately even though most hardware will work, not all hardware will work
[01:25] <nixternal> if i was a dog, i would be chasing my tail right now
[01:29] <nixternal> Burgwork: i do see what you mean, Devices and General Knowledge Db both contain "hardware"...it is a little silly, but i like the fact everything is linked, big letters, and no scrolling to findi t (fluidity)
[01:29] <Burgwork> yep
[02:44] <Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: Bug #75549
[02:44] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 75549 in apt "Cannot upgrade Dapper->Edgy without update-manager" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/75549
[02:45] <Admiral_Chicago> what is your take on this, I'm not sure what to do with it
[02:50] <LaserJock> well, it seems logical that would should say something about server installs
[02:51] <nixternal> definitely a very valid point
[02:51] <Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: i thought so, will the doc be updated soon? i'll bookmark the bug
[02:51] <nixternal> i do it the "unreliable" way for every machine...editing source.list and doing the dist-upgrade
[02:51] <nixternal> hasn't broke yet for me
[02:51] <Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: as do I
[02:52] <nixternal> that is a wiki page, he can edit it or you can edit, or anyone can edit it to do the apt-get way for servers
[02:54] <LaserJock> well, we are encouraging people to use update-manager
[02:54] <Admiral_Chicago> not sure how you do it really. i don't think he does either
[02:54] <LaserJock> but the language should say something about server installs
[02:55] <Admiral_Chicago> so editing the sources would be the way to go for servers?
[02:57] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what Canonical/devs want to do
[02:58] <nixternal> sudo mv sources.list sources && sed -e 's/edgy/feisty/' sources | sudo tee -a sources.list && sudo rm sources
[02:58] <nixternal> that will provide him the sources.list to update, and then he can sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade from there
[02:59] <nixternal> im sure there is a shorter way of doing the first line, i just can't remember, plus im a lil busy ;p
[02:59] <LaserJock> well, but the point isn't how so much
[03:00] <LaserJock> but what are we as a project supporting
[03:00] <Admiral_Chicago> okay i'll just edit the page
[03:01] <nixternal> http://www.elfyourself.com/?userid=5692c75673810380ba8999dG06121216
[03:01] <nixternal> gahahahahahaha
[03:01] <nixternal> my x-wife just sent that to me
[03:04] <LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: maybe you should email the list
[03:04] <Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: the doc list or the dev list?
[03:05] <LaserJock> doc first
[03:05] <Admiral_Chicago> okay will do.
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> Oh dear.
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> (See Mailing List)
[03:31] <Admiral_Chicago> tonyyarusso: yea it's a good question, (i sent it)
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> So Matthew Flaschen asked something, and Matthew Nuzum forwarded it to the doc team, where Matthew East will answer.  :P
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> Admiral_Chicago: I'm just amused  by the names ;)
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> But yes, the overall question does need to be addressed too
[07:31] <Burgundavia> mdke_: ping
[08:53] <mdke_> Burgundavia: pong
[08:53] <rob> hi mdke_
[08:54] <mdke_> hi rob
[08:55] <Burgundavia> mdke_: got a UWN 24 article in the queu for the firdge
[08:56] <mdke_> ah
[08:56] <mdke_> ok
[08:58] <mdke_> Burgundavia: approved
[08:58] <Burgundavia> sweet
[08:59] <mdke_> good job
[09:05] <somerville32> mdke_: ping
[09:05] <mdke> somerville32: just ask
[09:09] <somerville32> mdke: Can you add two reoccurring monthly event on the fridge calendar, Wednesday @ 2200 UTC and Saturday @ 1500 UTC titled "Xubuntu Developer Team Meeting" with a link to the agenda at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[09:09] <somerville32> *events
[09:10] <somerville32> Thanks.
[09:10] <mdke> somerville32: can you email them to fridge-devel@lists.ubuntu.com please?
[09:10] <mdke> if not, I can email them
[09:11] <somerville32> Done.
[09:11] <somerville32> :] 
[09:11] <mdke> thanks
[09:12] <willvdl> morning all
[09:14] <mdke> morning willvdl
[09:15] <Ubugtu> New bug: #75542 in ubuntu-doc "Diagrams missing in PostfixBasicSetupHowto" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/75542
[09:18] <willvdl> mdke, can we add release series to https://launchpad.net/products/distro-about-page etc?
[09:20] <mdke> willvdl: well, it's all a bit confused: we have a general ubuntu-doc product that we use for most launchpad activity (bug tracking), and of course there is distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs. That product you mention isn't really used.
[09:21] <mdke> mpt registered it, maybe he can tell you more about *why* he did so
[09:21] <willvdl> ok, I'll ask him
[09:22] <willvdl> I'm trying to get edubuntu "back in the fol" so am looking at launchpad, wiki.e.o, wiki.u.c and help.u.c
[09:22] <willvdl> s/fol/fold/
[09:22] <mdke> sure
[09:24] <mdke> I think probably the best thing to do is to use the LP ubuntu-doc product. we can discuss it on the mailing list and see what people think
[09:24] <willvdl> yeah, we cahtted about that in here last night
[09:24] <willvdl> want to bring edubuntu-docs into ubuntu-doc(just like kubuntu-doc) so as not to dilute the doc-team
[09:25] <willvdl> but at the same time, some of our stuff is "marketing" related so we want to put it in svn but not package for release in ubuntu-doc necessarily
[09:26] <mdke> certainly
[09:26] <mdke> like the school-advocacy document
[09:26] <willvdl> although what I'm not sure about is if "kubuntu-doc" or "edubuntu-doc" will end up being seperate products
[09:27] <mdke> yeah, I see. I can see a much more powerful argument for that than to have a separate product for each document
[09:28] <willvdl> it just brings up the question of duplication since edubuntu is built on ubuntu
[09:28] <mdke> but again, if they are in the same repository, something tells me it should be the same product
[09:28] <willvdl> well, there's stuff in the repo that is not part of the product so...
[09:29] <mdke> well, the idea is that you register the repository with the product
[09:29] <willvdl> as a branch? or as a subdirectory in trunk?
[09:30] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/trunk
[09:30] <mdke> or as a branch, whatever is applicable
[09:30] <mdke> confusingly, that product has "main" and "trunk", which appear to be the same
[09:30] <willvdl> don't like the branch idea. not sure it's technically correct
[09:31] <mdke> you'll see we don't really think about this much
[09:31] <willvdl> :)
[09:31] <willvdl> should we add edgy/dapper releases to above product?
[09:31] <mdke> well, dapper is there. We should add Edgy
[09:31] <mdke> (I think)
[09:32] <willvdl> I can do if ok with you. want to add more edubuntu stuff here and there anyway...
[09:33] <mdke> I'm not sure you have the right permissions
[09:33] <willvdl> probably not
[09:35] <mdke> alright, done
[09:35] <willvdl> thanks
[09:36] <mdke> I've added the relevant branch in our repository as the code, you don't think that's correct?
[09:36] <willvdl> not with you?
[09:36] <mdke> 08:38:45 < willvdl> don't like the branch idea. not sure it's technically correct
[09:37] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/edgy
[09:37] <willvdl> as I understand, a branch is a parallel effort
[09:37] <willvdl> whereas a tag is a snapshot
[09:37] <mdke> right, but we sometimes update our branches after branching or even after release
[09:37] <mdke> like by fixing critical bugs, or importing new translations
[09:37] <willvdl> good point
[09:38] <willvdl> no you're right. branch is right
[11:19] <Kamping_Kaiser> what licence is the doco released under? i seem to remember it was a CC+GFDL licence, but i just want to check
[11:20] <rob> just CC now iirc
[11:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> share alike?
[11:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> wonder if it says on the wiki...hm.
[11:21] <rob> by SA
[11:21] <rob> yep
[11:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> thanks.
[11:22] <rob> This document is made available under a dual license strategy that includes the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and the Creative Commons ShareAlike 2.0 License (CC-BY-SA).
[11:22] <rob> that's for edgy, for feisty its just the CC license iirc
[11:22] <Admiral_Chicago> blah i don't like CC, not to start a license flame wor
[11:23] <rob> Admiral_Chicago: there was quite a bit of debate about it on the mailing list
[11:23] <Kamping_Kaiser> Admiral_Chicago, we dont have anything better. :\
[11:23] <Admiral_Chicago> Kamping_Kaiser: i'd just go for GNU, I think CC is too much "Protect some of the author's rights"
[11:24] <rob> by having only one licence we can get material from other compatible license works and use them, with the dual license set up we couldn't from either
[11:24] <Kamping_Kaiser> Admiral_Chicago, there isnt a good gnu doco/arwork licence though.
[11:24] <rob> yep, to a point
[11:24] <Admiral_Chicago> that is true, for both those points
[11:24] <rob> wikipedia is gfdl isn't it?
[11:25] <Kamping_Kaiser> iirc yes
[11:25] <rob> hmm, should be a branch for dapper I think in svn
[11:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> only 5 files in my svn checkout with 'dapper' in the name, all images :/
[11:26] <rob> hmm, talk to mdke later about it then
[11:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. i'll try and catch him
[11:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> thanks :)
[03:06] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, you about yet?
[03:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> gnight all
[03:21] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'll try and catch you another time mdk
[07:56] <nixternal> hola LaserJock
[07:58] <LaserJock> hi nixternal
[08:28] <LaserJock> oh geeze, this wiki license thing is sure a pain
[08:31] <Burgwork> I am ignoring it
[10:01] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: what's up?
[10:07] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: ah, I see the scrollback. It's at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper