[12:14] afaict some funding agencies wan't stuff that they fund to be freeer than GPL, that seems perfectly reasonable to me [12:15] yeah [12:15] or the agency doing the funding wants to use it in thier own propietry stuff [12:16] Laserjock, LGPL [12:16] I guess my main complaint with the GPL is that on one hand it's so free, but on the other hand is so restrictive [12:16] for that very reason [12:16] mhm [12:16] but the restrictiveness is what makes it so good [12:17] I'm not so sure [12:17] the so called copyleft [12:17] yeah, I can see in the beginning where copyleft was important [12:17] without it, people would be more apt to flip flop and release closed code [12:17] I just think it's hampering a lot of growth [12:17] where is growth being hampered, huh? [12:18] because everybody hoped on the GPL bandwagon and now places where it could grow it can't because of copyleft [12:18] in this case chemical software [12:18] lol [12:18] I think your demand is unreasonable though [12:19] it's not growth in that area if you can't GPL it [12:19] nah, I just think something like LGPL might be better [12:19] why? [12:19] well, unless you just mean open source growth or something [12:19] open source yes [12:19] well then [12:19] you could always write open source code that still falls within the funding requirements then [12:20] right [12:20] but this is what I'm saying [12:20] what ARE you saying? [12:20] in my field we have a GPL'd library that is supposed to be the standard for chemical information transfer [12:20] but many projects don't use it because it's GPL'd [12:21] so the only way for it to be the standard is for *everything* else to be GPL'd [12:21] have you tried talking to its developers about getting it placed under a freer license? [12:21] mmhmm === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:21] which has caused people to reject the standard and write something else that they *can* use [12:21] personally, I think that it's totally up to the developers whether they want more users or more GPLed software [12:22] this is what I'm talking about with the GPL "bandwagon" [12:22] I just think many people just GPL stuff because it's obvious [12:22] but it can cause problems for other's in the future [12:22] yep, have you told the libraries devs this? [12:23] and if so how did they respond? [12:23] I dunno, by the time you've written some code, you've thought about the ramifications of the license [12:23] I definitely have.. and I would use the GPL by choice [12:23] I suppose, but these are scientists we're talking about [12:23] indeed, who else should be more supportive of the GPL than scientists? [12:23] plugwash: well, this is the debate going on right now, hence why I'm thinking about it :-) [12:23] well, they aren't [12:24] scientists have some of the worst licenses I've ever seen [12:24] indeed [12:24] the GPL has its place, but libraries that are supposed to be the reference implementation of a standard are not that place [12:24] and they should freaking wise up, they're on the forefront of expanding human knowledge, and they should act like it, lol [12:25] Simon80: yes, but it's very difficult [12:25] plugwash: I suppose that's a valid point, but it depends how pervasive the standard is [12:25] what is very difficult? [12:25] I'm part of an open standards, open source, open data chemistry group [12:25] Simon80 if you wan't the standard to be pervasive then GPLing the standard is not the way to achive that [12:25] no, clearly not [12:25] and generally gaining wide acceptance is the whole point of standards [12:26] indeed [12:26] well, for instance, I am relying on somebody else not publishing my research before I do [12:26] I have to go eat [12:26] it would be difficult for me to take an "Open Chemistry" stnace [12:26] *stance [12:27] many scientist believe in academic-only or non-commercial licenses [12:27] it's just tough [12:27] yeah === _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-024-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:27] and you are talking about their career [12:27] well, this is why I like the GPL, cause without it, nobody would be thinking about this [12:28] I've spent 9 years in uni and I'd be pretty darn upset if somebody "stole" my work [12:28] I mean, i know my attitude is a bit imposing... but there are so many cases where companies GPL something cause they have to [12:28] Laserjock: wouldn't there be repercussions of them doing that? [12:28] no [12:28] I mean, it would be obvious they did it [12:29] not if they published it before I did [12:29] it's just a race to who publishes first, the only weapon I have is ignorance on their part ;-) [12:29] err.. but you would have public source code history that would act as proof that it was your work [12:29] wouldn't matter [12:29] how do you know that? [12:30] I don't think academics like plagiarism much [12:30] because it's the paper that matters :-) [12:30] well, it's not "stole" as in came into my lab and grabbed my notes [12:30] no, it's plagiarism [12:30] but as in "I share my ongoing research with others in the field" [12:31] which is equivalent to FLOSS I think [12:31] yeah, that's what the GPL does [12:31] that would kill me [12:31] I couldn't do my research if I acted that way [12:31] at this point [12:31] well what you could do is develop in private, but publish under the GPL when you're done [12:32] it's only the distribution part that the license covers === sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-motu [12:32] you can do what you like with it in private [12:32] sure, that's more or less what Chemistry is now [12:32] hi folks [12:32] well then how does that sound? [12:32] along with this paper is some GPL code, enjoy folks [12:32] well, it doesn't sound very open [12:32] it's better than the alternative you suggest === plugwash [i=plugwash@p10link.net] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [12:33] which is to not use the GPL, and reinvent the wheel [12:33] well, it's the current situation [12:33] it's not the current situation, not how you explained it [12:33] sorry, I'm sort of mixing things about [12:33] for me personally I don't do anything with software [12:33] ah [12:33] .............I still have to go eat, lol [12:33] I was equating FLOSS to "Open Chemistry" where scientists work as the FLOSS word does [12:33] oh [12:34] well, they do now [12:34] sort of [12:34] in an interesting way [12:34] they like to charge money for papers, but otherwise, it's kind of like that [12:34] it SHOULD be like that [12:34] anyway, you better go eat [12:34] :-) [12:34] I mean, nothing wrong with using a bit of communism where it applies.. as in when it doesn't involve property redistribution [12:35] basically, information wants to be free.. it's cliche, but it's how we should view this [12:35] well, if I was truly open in my research I'd never be able to graduate :-) [12:35] imo [12:35] laser, what if, like I said, you were open upon publishing it [12:35] but not before [12:35] doesn't that fix it? [12:36] well, that's fine. that's really the scientific model for the most part [12:36] I feel very strongly about not restricting the flow of information [12:36] but that doesn't bring the power of FLOSS to science === gandalfn [n=gandalfn@i02m-87-89-253-156.d4.club-internet.fr] has left #ubuntu-motu [] [12:36] yes it does [12:36] part of it [12:36] there's not the same collaboration, but there is some [12:36] the power would be to share ideas and develop before it gets published [12:36] you build on other papers [12:37] before of after they get published, there's still sharing going on, man [12:37] yeah, some [12:37] but I want it all :-) [12:37] so I don't care if you wait till it gets published, the issue that I care about is whether people publsih freely, that sort of thing [12:37] yeah, that makes sense [12:37] anyway, that was really OT [12:37] and I don't see yet why that couldn't include GPLed code at publish-time [12:38] lol [12:38] well, I don't publish code so that would be a problem :-) [12:38] but for people who do there are at times (apparently) when there are restrictions set by the funding agencies [12:39] and while the push might need to be made to make the funding agency accept a GPL license [12:39] I'm not really convinced that all code in this world needs to be GPL'd [12:39] if you're out for world domination then copyleft is the way to go I guess [12:40] if you're trying to be useful and let people do what they want with it then I think there are better choices === LaserJock returns everyone to their regularly scheduled programming === jorgp [n=jorgp@adsl-70-234-108-24.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mruiz [n=mruiz@ubuntu/member/mruiz] has joined #ubuntu-motu === realist [n=realist@unaffiliated/realist] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch returns [01:01] wb [01:02] mm, lunch :) [01:02] what's up? === ajmitch is glad it's a nice, sunny friday afternoon [01:02] lunch [01:02] where I get to sit in the office [01:02] do you have a window? [01:03] So, I've got a package in universe that I need to update. What's the proper process for that (while I'm not a MOTU)? [01:03] jelmer: file a bug, attach a debdiff, subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors [01:03] LaserJock: roger, thanks [01:03] LaserJock: sure, the window runs the length of the office, is about 2m by 6m :) [01:04] jelmer: bzr-svn? === LaserJock cries === Lathiat has no external windows in his office [01:04] ajmitch: yep [01:04] jelmer: is it in debian right now? [01:04] my eyes usually kill me everytime i walk outside ;p [01:04] they don't let us have *any* windows with all the lasers flying about ;-) [01:05] although we do get to occasionally drill holes through walls to get from one room to another [01:05] ajmitch: Not yet. The required Python-Subversion changes have been integrated into the Debian package as well now. [01:06] So it should be possible, if somebody can sponsor (my AM seems to've gone MIA) [01:07] sure, I can [01:07] I offered awhile back, I can't remember what the hold up was then [01:07] Probably the fact that python-subversion needed patching [01:07] I think so [01:08] if you can give me a url to a source package, it'd be great [01:09] makes things more consistent if I use the same tarball as you have [01:09] ajmitch: Packages are up at http://samba.org/~jelmer/bzr/ [01:09] I don't know how NEW processing is going in debian at the moment with etch frozen [01:10] I thought it was dead [01:10] ajmitch: It looks quite short at the moment [01:11] http://samba.org/~jelmer/bzr/bzr-svn_0.2-0ubuntu1.dsc is the ubuntu update? [01:11] ajmitch: is there a way to grab a package sitting in debian's new? [01:11] ajmitch: Oops, yes, that's right. [01:11] sistpoty: no, due to various arcane restrictions [01:12] like US export laws, iirc [01:12] ah, k... because bddebian wants to bring a package in that's also sitting in new :) [01:12] ajmitch: Working on a Debian entry.. [01:12] since it's not verified by ftpmasters whether debian can distribute the package yet === awbassett [n=awbasset@206.135.97.35] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:13] ajmitch: they just need an offshore account ;-) [01:13] oh, seems like it's no longer in new *g* [01:13] ajmitch: Is it a problem if there are -ubuntuX entries in debian/changelog for a debian package? [01:13] sistpoty: is it in or is it just not there? [01:13] or do I just need to make sure the last entry is 0.2-0 ? [01:14] LaserJock: I'm just checking... *g* [01:14] jelmer: last entry should be 0.2-1, I don't think they care if there are -0ubuntu1 entries [01:14] I'm sure I've put packages through debian NEW with ubuntu changelog entries [01:16] LaserJock: it's at least not yet on p.d.o, maybe it got rejected [01:16] I thought there was something about a NEW flush in November [01:17] sistpoty: package name? [01:17] libparagui1.1 [01:17] sistpoty: was that actually uploaded to debian? [01:18] ajmitch: I'd swear that I've seen it in new yesterday... and there is a bug marked as pending on the older one [01:18] (wishlist bug regarding new upstream version= [01:18] -=+) [01:19] debian bug #316335 [01:19] Debian bug 316335 in libparagui1.0-dev "libparagui1.0: new version available" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/316335 [01:20] it'd probably get rejected for wonky shlibs :) [01:20] is there a way to make a package use an interactive debconf frontend even if the system has debconf generally set to noninteractive? [01:20] hehe, probably... [01:22] ajmitch: seems very much like it... I found it in pkg-sdl svn (with wrong shlibs *g*) [01:22] yay [01:23] ajmitch: I've uploaded 0.2-1 [01:23] no, rejected for debian/copyright reasons: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-sdl-maintainers/2006-December/000280.html [01:24] doh [01:24] and people look at me funny when I say you need to account for the licenses of *all* files [01:25] hehe, I guess I'm a get debian/copyright right diehard as well [01:27] you have to be === finalbeta [n=finalbet@d5152A68A.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-motu === ajmitch trusts that bzr-svn will be sane with copyright :) [01:30] (-: [01:31] jelmer: might be good to depend on a version of python-version that has the appropriate patches [01:34] ajmitch: Right, I hadn't thought of that. Rebuilding... [01:35] apart from that it looks fine === ajmitch still had the previous version lying around === cormil [n=cormil@d83-184-110-223.cust.tele2.it] has joined #ubuntu-motu === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pricechild] has joined #ubuntu-motu === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:47] ajmitch: Fixed now, I've uploaded a new version. === somerville32 [n=somervil@ubuntu/member/somerville32] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:53] ok === jdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:54] do do do === _Enchained [n=cyrille@81.56.226.96] has joined #ubuntu-motu [01:57] re [01:57] wb imbrandon [01:57] heya sistpoty [01:58] oh, nice... gborzi is now also (co)-maintaining keytouch in debian :) [02:00] hey imbrandon === effie_jayx [n=valles@190.37.226.1] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:08] ping crimsun_ [02:16] imbrandon you around? === hub [n=hub@toronto-hs-216-138-231-194.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:21] what other screen video capture applications are there other than istanbul and xvidcap? === cr3 [n=marc@pdpc/supporter/bronze/cr3] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:25] ok, /me needs to go to bed now. otherwise I'll be late for lunch with siretart *g* [02:25] gn8 everyone [02:25] Goodnight sistpoty === fowlduck [n=nate@198.150.12.33] has joined #ubuntu-motu === mruiz [n=mruiz@ubuntu/member/mruiz] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:50] ping slomo [02:51] mruiz: probably the wrong time of day for that [02:51] hello ajmitch [02:52] hello [02:52] hey ajmitch, can i possibly steal a few minutes from you to get a revu? === freeflying [i=flyingfr@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:53] it may take a bit more than a minute, so I'd have to wait until later [02:53] oh okay [02:53] figured i'd try :) [02:54] so it appears like Wednesday the 13th also carries some bad luck [02:54] jdong, why is that? [02:54] people are rarely yet many people are, getting grub error 17's with the kernel updates [02:54] reporting that kopt's root=/dev/??? line got bumped up by 1 [02:54] i.e. sda1 -> sda2 [02:55] (Dapper users) [02:55] and Edgy users randomly report various X failures [02:55] both official and unofficial drivers [02:55] including modprobe searching wrong paths, corrected with depmod -ae [02:55] superm1: try again in a few hours, it's friday afternoon here [02:55] nvidia xorg drivers totally disappearing, fixed by reinstalling nvidia-glx [02:55] ajmitch, aye okay thanks [02:55] anyone would like to review the patch that fix bug 57951? [02:55] Malone bug 57951 in xchat "xchat crashes frequently on quit" [Undecided,In progress] http://launchpad.net/bugs/57951 [02:55] monitor out of sync, fixed with reconfiguring xorg [02:55] jdong, why all the breakage though? [02:55] you name it\ [02:56] this seems like very weird stuff [02:56] superm1: I'm totally confused [02:56] to break from a kernel update [02:56] superm1: I've tried to track it down [02:56] superm1: spent about 3 hours yesterday with 5 different people [02:56] superm1: we'd figure out what happened, but have no idea why it happened [02:56] i've done the updates on 3 of my boxes, and they went smoother then most kernel updates (no needing to redo module-assistant or anything) [02:56] superm1: and all attempts to roll back the update, redo it and reproduce it fails [02:56] superm1: me too [02:56] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1887116 [02:57] but look at that thread (the replies) [02:57] there's an unignorable number of users experiencing some sort of problem [02:57] and they can't all be blamed on unofficial nvidia repos [02:57] it's left me utterly confused and completely out of ideas [02:57] and not being able to consistently reproduce any of the symptoms is leaving me extremely frustrated === bddebian [n=bdefrees@c-71-224-172-103.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [02:58] Heya gang [02:58] very crazy stuff [02:59] Hello bddebian [02:59] Hi superm1 [02:59] bddebian, would you have a few moments for a revu? [03:00] Yeah, why not [03:00] great: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=3780 [03:01] just settled all the licensing mess today :) === proppy [n=proppy@free.mekensleep.com] has left #ubuntu-motu ["Killed] [03:04] superm1: I would add a -0ubuntu1 revision [03:04] it was going to always be ubuntu native [03:04] Hmm [03:04] the license allows for ubuntu and derivatives [03:06] Can it really carry a GPL license? [03:06] the packaging [03:06] not the firmware [03:07] Hrm.. [03:08] crimsun_, was fairly iffy about it to, and said as long as I got this license and approval for hosting on ubuntu servers + mirrors, then it would fall on ubuntu-archive admins final decision === danielmarsom [n=daniel@222-153-245-148.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:12] have you guys considered putting webmin in the repos? [03:15] danielmarsom: it was in the repos [03:15] they took it out [03:15] any idea why? [03:15] security concerns if i remember correctly [03:17] ok. thanks man. [03:17] danielmarsom: you are most welcome [03:18] if anyone's looking for a bug to fix, [03:18] bug 24981 could use an added dependency [03:18] Malone bug 24981 in anjuta "Anjuta: unfulfilled glib dependency" [Medium,Needs info] http://launchpad.net/bugs/24981 [03:18] Ugh, anjuta [03:18] bddebian, couple of questions about revu though - there is a Multimedia section when I look in Synaptic/Sections. What do I set to get it placed in that? [03:19] oh. nvm, looks like 'sound'. a bit counter-intuitive eh? :) [03:19] thanks for the revu bddebian [03:21] I don't see one listed here: http://packages.debian.org/unstable/ [03:21] Ohh nm :-) === shawarma [n=sh@atlas.linux2go.dk] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:26] Holy crap there are a lot of packages on REVU [03:26] we should tag team them. [03:26] I'm looking now [03:26] we'll have a revu day soonish [03:26] Hmm [03:26] I think I have all my merges done that I can do for now.. === ehazlett [n=ehazlett@adsl-69-212-246-164.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [03:28] bddebian: coming to the motu meeting? [03:28] Did we ever pick a date? [03:29] yes [03:29] friday [03:29] (tomorrow) [03:29] time? [03:29] 20:00UTC [03:30] Hmm yeah I can probably make that [03:30] 9am saturday for me [03:30] crimsun_: So I shouldn't review until revu day? [03:31] I'm going to do a few now [03:31] you should review constantly [03:31] well, after I get some more coffee :) [03:31] revu day is just a special day where dholbach hugs everyone [03:31] ajmitch: So should you! ;-P [03:31] bddebian, about that error about too long of an extended description, is that anything to really worry about? [03:31] bddebian: so I should [03:31] doesn't mean I will [03:31] because its a license [03:32] superm1: I wouldn't worry about it too much but I'm not as anal as ajmitch :-) [03:32] okay i'll reupload with the others fixed then. Thanks :) [03:32] NP === superm1 [n=superm1@68-115-81-248.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jmantha [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:02] hi guys [04:02] Heya jmantha [04:02] New nick? :-) [04:02] yeah, it's the latest craze [04:02] So I've noticed :) [04:03] cjwatson, bhale, tfheen [04:03] Don't make me go all bdefreese on your asses :) [04:03] please don't [04:03] am I going to have to change as well? [04:03] ajmitch: Nah, you're close enough :-) === bddebian decides to rebel === ajmitch is now known as ajmitchell [04:04] too long to type === bddebian guesses he just isn't part of the "cool Ubuntu" crowd [04:05] nah, you're far beyond mere cool [04:06] Yeah right === ajmitch guesses the motu meeting is just a formality to elect bddebian as ruler of the universe for life [04:06] mhm [04:06] Tell that to my wife ;-P [04:06] ajmitch: +1 [04:07] with jmantha as deputy [04:08] hmm, not sure about that === doko_ [n=doko@dslb-088-073-072-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu === phlaegel [n=phlaegel@S01060016b619a773.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:11] ajmitch: Oh no, jmantha would make a much better ruler [04:12] bah, I don't rule anything [04:12] You just plain RULE d00d :) [04:16] bddebian: I think if you look the my number of uploads you'd beg to differ [04:18] Bah uploads, schmuploads :-) [04:19] stop arguing & get back to fixing === jmantha [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-motu === poningru_ [n=poningru@pool-72-64-211-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:26] xchat-gnome just isn't quite there [04:27] ajmitch: I can't fix anything :-) [04:29] it looks like a lot of people are getting bitten by the kernel updates [04:29] of course, precisely none of them are Ubuntu's fault. [04:30] -and- they're filing bugs that we have to reject. === ajmitch has not really heard of this problem [04:31] at least two alsa bug reports in LP today due to the edgy-security linux-image-foo update [04:31] both of them turned out to be caused by pebkac [04:31] heh [04:31] users... [04:31] our lives would be so much better without them [04:32] What's with the freakin' 3 changelog entries for a single merge? [04:32] I'm sorry? [04:32] please explain [04:33] istanbul on REVU [04:35] there's a MoM entry + two uploader entries just for the merge [04:35] right, stating that you saw this on a specific package would have helped when you asked your question [04:35] It was a rhetorical question :-) [04:35] like many of your questions prefixed with WTF!?! [04:36] YEP :) === ajmitch wonders if he can set an /ignore filter on that [04:37] So is this some new "policy" before I complain about more packages with Merge-o-Matic changelog entries? [04:37] ajmitch: You can always just ignore me [04:37] tempting.. [04:38] Go for it man [04:38] the new policy is to include the remaining ubuntu changes [04:38] That's not new is it? [04:39] not really [04:39] having multiple changelog entries like that is just wrong [04:40] Just making sure :-) [04:40] sure, there's no way it could be uploaded as-is === Yagisan [n=Yagisan@doomsday/developer/Yagisan] has joined #ubuntu-motu === SlimG2 [n=robert@84.205.58.248] has joined #ubuntu-motu [04:54] crimsun_, while on your revuing madness can you look at ivtv-firmware again? [04:55] I'm in a meeting. [04:55] ah okay === somerville32 hugs crimsun_. === cinod [n=sufiyan@124.82.152.1] has joined #ubuntu-motu === jinty [n=jinty@177.Red-83-54-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:07] What is a ~git20061213 revision? (compiz on REVU) [05:09] a git revision, from 20061213 [05:10] I got that. What is git? === Simon80_ [n=Simon80@bas6-toronto63-1128541413.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:11] a revision control system [05:11] one that's quite popular === ash211_ [n=andrew@user-1121mhi.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:11] bddebian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29 [05:14] Heh, what do I know? :-) [05:14] Nothing? === somerville32 ducks. [05:14] somerville32: Correct === somerville32 hugs bddebian. === rexbron [n=rexbron@CPE001310b2d1d1-CM0012256e816a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-motu === _jaldhar [n=jaldhar@c-68-38-202-139.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:22] ok, so I've got an SRU interpretation question === nameinuse [n=Simon80@bas6-toronto63-1167880474.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #ubuntu-motu [05:23] do I need to include the previous changelog in the .changes? [05:23] or just the one I'm adding === nameinuse is now known as Simon80 [05:24] the Main SRU page has "Make sure to generate the .changes file against the base version in the relevant distribution and not against the version in -proposed or a previous version in -updates, using the -v option to dpkg-buildpackage or debuild." [05:27] ahhhh ew ew ew stay away from me [05:27] no, I can't help you use your "dapper-backports suppositories" [05:27] :-/ [05:28] jmantha: for -proposed or -updates? [05:28] why am I always the butt-end of all these random jokes [05:28] jmantha: the statement above means you shouldn't include changelog entries from -proposed [05:28]