[01:06] <bdmurray> hello?
[01:06] <mdke> hello
[01:07] <bdmurray> Hi, I was reading over the documentation team repository instructions and I was curious about bug reports versus submitting svn patches to the mailing list.
[01:08] <mdke> bdmurray: what in particular is your query?
[01:08] <bdmurray> Are bug reports appropriate if you are submitting a patch yourself?  If not when are bug reports appropriate?
[01:09] <mdke> you can submit a patch either on the mailing list or via bug report. If you just have a suggestion, or want to point out an error, a bug report is probably the best way
[01:11] <bdmurray> So, a bug report for suggestions w/o patches and mailing list for patches?
[01:11] <mdke> tbh, either for either
[01:11] <mdke> whichever you prefer
[01:12] <bdmurray> Thinking about it, it seems that trivial (typographical / grammatical) might be best via bug report.  Those requiring discussion might be best submitted to the mailing list.
[01:14] <mdke> bdmurray: that's fine. Any contribution is most welcome
[01:15] <bdmurray> okay, thanks
[01:15] <mdke> bdmurray: anything specifically you're interested in working on?
[01:18] <bdmurray> mdke: I've been using Ubuntu for a while now but thought I'd read through the documentation. ;)  I wanted to help with things as I notice them.
[01:19] <mdke> that would be great
[01:37] <bdmurray> mdke: do you have a minute?
[01:37] <mdke> bdmurray: yes
[01:38] <bdmurray> I was looking at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/linux-basics.html and noticed that some of the sentences are active and some are passive.
[01:38] <bdmurray> "Starting the Terminal" vs "Switch to Console mode"
[01:38] <bdmurray> Then looking through the svn repository those phrases appear a lot
[01:39] <mdke> those are both active, afaik, but I think I see your point
[01:39] <bdmurray> maybe I don't have the right term then.  but some end in "ing" and some don't.
[01:40] <mdke> yeah
[01:41] <bdmurray> What would be the best way to approach that?
[01:41] <mdke> well, a discussion on the mailing list. I don't recall if our style guide deals with that
[01:42] <mdke> "Starting the Terminal" sounds appropriate for titles to me, while "Switch to..." sounds like an instruction
[01:44] <bdmurray> I think that using "Starting" and "Switching" are appropriate because if you read that section that is what you will be doing.
[02:00] <crimsun_> mdke: hi
[02:00] <mdke> ah yay
[02:00] <crimsun_> (I'm in a meeting; my responses are lagged)
[02:01] <mdke> crimsun_: flash, is it broken in feisty or is the method for installing it going to change? (lagged responses gratefully accepted)
[02:01] <crimsun_> it's not known-broken; do you have a case where it fails?
[02:02] <mdke> it's not working on my system
[02:02] <crimsun_> where does it barf?
[02:02] <mdke> it is installed, but doesn't seem to work. And I can't find the update-flashplugin command that used to be around
[02:03] <crimsun_> update-flashplugin is obsolete; we killed it when we migrated to the betas of 9
[02:03] <mdke> ok, that explains that
[02:03] <mdke> mental note to nuke that from the docs
[02:03] <mdke> so simply installing it should work?
[02:04] <crimsun_> yes
[02:04] <crimsun_> ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree* >/dev/null 2>&1 ; echo $?
[02:04] <mdke> 0
[02:04] <crimsun_> ok good
[02:04] <mdke> i saw some posts about removing the package and reinstalling it, I haven't tried that yet
[02:05] <crimsun_> which Web browser(s) are you testing against?
[02:05] <mdke> firefox/epiphany
[02:05] <crimsun_> ls -l /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/plugins/*flash*
[02:05] <mdke> nothing
[02:06] <crimsun_> ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree
[02:06] <crimsun_> also, do you use a network proxy?
[02:06] <mdke> whoa
[02:06] <mdke> matt@kalliope:~$ ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree
[02:06] <mdke> total 0
[02:06] <mdke> never seen "total 0" before
[02:06] <crimsun_> ok, how about ls -l /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree-unpackdir
[02:07] <mdke> yes, that has wgetrc in it
[02:07] <mdke> and "total 4"
[02:07] <crimsun_> but no FP9_plugin_beta_112006.tar.gz ?
[02:07] <mdke> correct
[02:08] <crimsun_> what are the contents of wgetrc?
[02:09] <mdke> noclobber = off
[02:09] <mdke> dir_prefix = .
[02:09] <mdke> dirstruct = off
[02:09] <mdke> verbose = off
[02:09] <crimsun_> ok, so let's rehash: you -do- use a proxy?
[02:09] <mdke> no
[02:10] <mdke> at least not knowingly
[02:10] <crimsun_> ok, please --purge flashplugin-nonfree, then reinstall it
[02:10] <mdke> if that solves the problem, is it going to lose debugging material?
[02:11] <crimsun_> no
[02:11] <crimsun_> it'll be the same problem that has existed since 7.0.63
[02:11] <crimsun_> there's nothing we can really do about flaky upstream proxies and the like
[02:11] <crimsun_> I can merge a newer Debian unstable source package, but it won't help this issue at all
[02:12] <mdke> upstream proxies?
[02:13] <crimsun_> if your isp does funky things
[02:13] <crimsun_> (back to your 'knowingly' comment)
[02:13] <mdke> yeah
[02:13] <mdke> or potentially I was disconnected during the upgrade?
[02:14] <crimsun_> that could be it, too
[02:14] <crimsun_> postinst no longer bails if the package fails to download, because it could prevent other packages from being configured
[02:14] <mdke> so there is no equivalent fallback command for redownloading afterwards, like with update-flashplugin?
[02:14] <crimsun_> not a good solution, but it's arguably better than killing a dist-upgrade
[02:15] <crimsun_> you can try dpkg-reconfigure flashplugin-nonfree
[02:16] <mdke> really this should all be done from firefox... how hard would that be?
[02:16] <crimsun_> from within a browser window?
[02:16] <mdke> well, the window that appears when you try to view a flash page, and you click on the broken window
[02:17] <mdke> that should install the required package, or dpkg-reconfigure it, if installed already
[02:17] <mdke> (works now btw, thanks)
[02:17] <crimsun_> there's no reliable way to hook into that.
[02:17] <mdke> crimsun_: they are doing it with totem, aren't they?
[02:17] <crimsun_> Bart and I spent quite a while debugging, and it breaks on too many cases.
[02:17] <mdke> ah, ok: if you've looked at it already
[02:17] <crimsun_> mdke: with the plugins? No idea; totem is not used here.
[02:18] <mdke> there is some plan to install codecs as required by files the user is trying to play, I think
[02:18] <crimsun_> is that a Ubuntu spec or in the upstream code?
[02:18] <mdke> Ubuntu spec, but the fact you're not aware of it is making me nervous
[02:19] <crimsun_> it shouldn't make you nervous; I've had no time to keep up with Ubuntu things in the past month :/
[02:19] <mdke> it has been quite a prominent spec over the last 6 months though
[02:19] <mdke> what was it called...
[02:19] <crimsun_> the education one?
[02:20] <crimsun_> easy-codec-installation
[02:21] <mdke> that's it
[02:21] <mdke> I was only able to find https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/CommonInstallHook
[02:22] <crimsun_> lp/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[02:23] <mdke> so, you think a hook into firefox would be out of the question?
[02:23] <mdke> if you think it might be a long term option, I'll file a bug or something
[02:24] <crimsun_> I'll have to look at libgimme-codec
[02:24] <mdke> that's clearly grounds for me to file a bug
[02:24] <crimsun_> if it does what I think it does, it won't help at all
[02:24] <mdke> gah
[02:25] <crimsun_> it seems to be a wrapper to g-a-i, which will just pull down a package, which will pull down flashplugin-nonfree
[02:25] <crimsun_> so what can be automated is the fetching of the package, yes, but it won't at all resolve the issue you encountered
[02:25] <mdke> which won't help?
[02:26] <mdke> well, it fixes another issue. What about dpkg-reconfigure if the package is already installed?
[02:26] <crimsun_> may resolve one corner case
[02:27] <crimsun_> feel free to file a bug, but someone else will have to action it
[02:28] <mdke> it's already filed
[02:28] <mdke> bug 36544
[02:28] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 36544 in epiphany-browser "We should suggest to install the proper package is a plugin is missing" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/36544
[02:29] <crimsun_> I'm not at all happy with it.
[02:29] <mdke> with the bug?
[02:29] <crimsun_> in ff's case, we're simply reimplementing what firefox already does
[02:30] <mdke> does firefox actually do it successfully?
[02:30] <crimsun_> people report that it does.
[02:30] <crimsun_> several folks in #edubuntu, actually. I was shocked.
[02:30] <mdke> oh, I thought it didn't.
[02:30] <mdke> anyway, feel free to adjust the bug report if you disagree
[02:31] <crimsun_> it's a valid bug report imo
[02:31] <crimsun_> I'm just not happy with it :)
[02:31] <mdke> aha
[02:31] <mdke> i have to sleep, thanks again for your help
[02:31] <crimsun_> np
[08:50] <nixternal> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide/Structure#head-703356a6365ef19b1be181925b7e8556d8f6f1bc
[09:28] <mdke> nixternal: I'm not sure, I think more categories would work better. A user can't really tell what is going to be in a section called "KDE Games". The ubuntu version uses one game per section
[12:46] <mpt> Are the status="complete", status="review" etc attributes still in use?
[12:54] <matthewrevell> Morning all
[12:55] <matthewrevell> In case you don't know me, I work for Canonical as part of the Launchpad team.
[12:56] <matthewrevell> I'm interested to see if I can help you chaps with documentation for Ubuntu users that explains where Launchpad fits in
[12:56] <matthewrevell> and how to use it.
[12:56] <matthewrevell> mdke: Perhaps you might be able to help me with that?
[12:58] <rob> that sounds pretty useful actually
[01:01] <matthewrevell> cool :)
[01:02] <matthewrevell> From what I can see, a thorough explanation of how Launchpad fits into the Ubuntu world is missing, at the moment.
[01:02] <matthewrevell> I'd like to work as part of the ubuntu-docs team to help provide that.
[01:58] <mpt> ugh
[01:59] <mpt> "Nuke it from orbit and checkout again. It's the only way to be sure."
[02:25] <Ubugtu> New bug: #76527 in ubuntu-doc "Abrreviation change at about-ubuntu.xml" [Undecided,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76527
[03:05] <Ubugtu> New bug: #76326 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Konqueror should be able to parse .lnk files" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76326
[03:34] <willvdl> is there a discussion anywhere I can read on the policy around translating wiki pages?
[03:46] <willvdl> hey folks, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFaq is an Italian translation of the Edubuntu FAQ.
[03:46] <willvdl> Is it really in the right place?
[03:54] <newz2000> willvdl: just looked at the moin docs, it seems many people wish there was a way to have multiple translations of the same page automatically built in, which implies that the capability isn't there yet.
[03:55] <newz2000> i.e. nothing like the content negotiation we use for help.ubuntu.com
[03:55] <willvdl> content negotiation?
[03:55] <newz2000> suggested workarounds were to simply link to the translated pages
[03:56] <newz2000> yeah, that means the webserver automoatically knows what languages you can read and sends you the version you want.
[03:56] <willvdl> eg h.u.c/pagename/es ?
[03:56] <willvdl> of course ja
[03:56] <newz2000> kind of
[03:56] <willvdl> hmmm. will think on this. thanks
[03:56] <newz2000> if you ask for index.html and you speak hu then it will look for index.html.hu and give you that if it exists
[03:57] <newz2000> moin doesn't have that. Instead, you would want to link to EdubuntuFaq/IT or EdubuntuFaq/EN or whatever.
[03:57] <newz2000> Maybe the docteam knows a better way
[03:58] <willvdl> I see some of the LoCo teams are doing parallel translations: e.g. https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ItalianRedirect
[03:58] <willvdl> must be a tonne of work
[03:59] <newz2000> yeah, that's cool though.
[03:59] <newz2000> that's one of the charters of the loco teams
[04:00] <newz2000> (maintaining localized help)
[04:01] <newz2000> willvdl: see the source of that page? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/ItalianRedirect?action=raw
[04:01] <newz2000> Notice that they used the 'language' feature to specify translated portions of that page
[04:01] <newz2000> {it} ... {en}...
[04:01] <willvdl> aha
[04:01] <willvdl> how does that help I wonder
[04:02] <newz2000> I think it would only help on small pages like this
[04:02] <newz2000> I love your little mouse for community. He's cool.
[04:03] <willvdl> yeah. we like mice
[04:03] <willvdl> thanks newz2000, gotto run to town
[04:03] <newz2000> ok, ping anytime. :)
[04:18] <nixternal> well well well if it isn't my old chap matthewrevell :)
[04:18] <nixternal> what's up?
[04:50] <newz2000> my goodness the UWN again was totally packed with awesome information
[04:50] <nixternal> awesome "old" information :(
[04:50] <newz2000> only old if you know everything... most of it was new to me. :)
[04:50] <nixternal> true
[04:51] <nixternal> hey, get to hacking mailman, and make a "add all to:" and a "ban all" selection
[04:51] <nixternal> ;)
[04:51] <nixternal> that would be easier than going through 100 spam emails collected in the mailman traps
[04:51] <newz2000> I did some mailman hacking this week as a matter of fact...
[04:51] <nixternal> and the spamassassin on the mailman server is subpar
[04:52] <newz2000> I added js links that check "reject" for all the pending messages.
[04:52] <nixternal> probably nees a sa-update if it isn't in cron
[04:52] <nixternal> if you reject, doesn't the email sender get a notice about it being rejected?
[04:53] <newz2000> oh, right. I added it to the other option, where it drops the message.
[04:53] <nixternal> discard
[04:53] <newz2000> but on my personal mailman, not the ubuntu/canonical mailman
[04:53] <newz2000> yeah, that's it
[04:53] <nixternal> but there is a button at the top that will auto discard everything marked defer already
[04:53] <nixternal> ahhh
[04:53] <nixternal> ok
[04:53] <newz2000> not on the version I use.
[04:53] <nixternal> orly
[04:53] <newz2000> I'm still running redhat 7.2 on that beast.
[04:54] <nixternal> haha
[04:54] <nixternal> thats still a good server, rocking that 2.2 kernel quite hard, unless you have upgraded to at least 2.4 :)
[04:54] <newz2000> I think that is up to 2.4
[04:54] <newz2000> I think 7.1 had 2.2
[04:54] <nixternal> ya, you are right
[04:55] <newz2000> I've mostly upgraded it to 7.3 via fedora legacy. Next month I'm getting a new server though, so it will have dapper server on it.
[04:56] <newz2000> a friend is letting me put it in his rack and is only charging $10/mo
[04:56] <nixternal> i am running a sarge server here, and an edgy server
[04:56] <nixternal> im moving all of the sarge stuff over to the edgy server eventually
[04:57] <newz2000> I'm thinking about using edgy...
[04:57] <nixternal> it is definitely stable
[04:57] <newz2000> I don't like messing with remote server upgrades though, so I'm a little hesitant
[04:57] <nixternal> it was up for 2 months before my dog unplugged the power to it
[04:58] <matthewrevell> nixternal: Howdy :)
[04:58] <nixternal> yo yo homey :)
[04:59] <nixternal> how is work? life? and I know how LUGRadio is rockin' :)
[05:01] <matthewrevell> nixternal: Both work and life are busy, but good :)
[05:02] <matthewrevell> nixternal: you?
[05:02] <nixternal> good to hear
[05:02] <nixternal> same pretty much, finish up this semester tonight with my last final, then i am clear for about a month
[05:02] <nixternal> just took a marketing/business management consultancy job with the Chicago Cubs as well
[05:02] <matthewrevell> nixternal: Cool :)
[05:02] <nixternal> probably about a 6 to 8 month contract
[05:02] <matthewrevell> nice
[05:03] <nixternal> ya, i hope there is plenty of free tickets to the games though :)
[07:37] <Lutin> Burgwork: are you around ?
[07:37] <Burgwork> Lutin: busy
[07:38] <Lutin> Burgwork: ok
[09:14] <bronson> LaserJock: here now.  Sorry about that.
[09:14] <LaserJock> no problem
[09:15] <LaserJock> it looks pretty good
[09:16] <bronson> Thanks.  It's a little disorganized because it's been growing badly...
[09:16] <LaserJock> I'm the maintainer of the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[09:16] <LaserJock> and generally do a fair amount of the packaging doc work around MOTU
[09:17] <bronson> Ah, good.
[09:17] <LaserJock> some of the "how to package" type stuff should probably go into the packaging guide
[09:17] <bronson> I saw that guide earlier.  It's got a lot of information that isn't in my pages and vice versa.
[09:17] <LaserJock> the repo stuff is also very nice
[09:17] <bronson> Definitely.
[09:18] <LaserJock> I wonder if it would also be a good addition to the packaging guide
[09:18] <bronson> Is there an all-on-one-page verison of the packaging guide?
[09:18] <LaserJock> I don't think so
[09:18] <LaserJock> there is a PDF
[09:18] <bronson> Drat.  Little hard to search.  :)
[09:18] <bronson> That'll do.
[09:18] <LaserJock> it'd on help.ubuntu.com
[09:19] <LaserJock> you don't happen to know docbook XML do you?
[09:19] <bronson> I do.
[09:19] <bronson> Or did.  :)
[09:19] <bronson> Haven't used it in years.
[09:20] <LaserJock> well, I write the packaging guide in docbook and it's in the doc team svn repo
[09:20] <LaserJock> you are more than welcome to work on it and incorporate your material
[09:20] <LaserJock> some of the stuff (particularly the repo material) should also be on the wiki
[09:22] <bronson> Mostly what I wrote about is how to maintain an apt-gettable repository.
[09:22] <bronson> The packaging guide doesn't appear to cover that at all...  is that intentional?
[09:22] <LaserJock> not really
[09:22] <LaserJock> I hadn't really thought of it before because I don't maintian a repo myself
[09:23] <LaserJock> but it might be a nice addition
[09:23] <bronson> I find repos are really handy in many-computer maintenance situations.  For instance, keeping a school's computer lab up to date.
[09:23] <LaserJock> exactly
[09:25] <willvdl> I'd love to see that. Would be very valuable
[09:26] <bronson> OK, I'll see what I can do.
[09:26] <bronson> I won't worry about package building much since it looks like you've got that covered.
[09:26] <LaserJock> the info on the doc team svn repo is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
[09:27] <LaserJock> the packaging guide is in the generic/ directory
[09:27] <LaserJock> I'm kinda busy right at the moment but if you have any questions my email is mantha AT ubuntu.com
[09:28] <bronson> will do.
[10:00] <Ubugtu> New bug: #76647 in ubuntu-doc "Searching via apt not covered in Command-Line Package Management" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76647