=== gouki [n=gouki@unaffiliated/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === gouki [n=gouki@unaffiliated/gouki] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === huwshimi [n=huwshimi@ppp201-25.lns1.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:42] night all === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@pool-71-96-216-227.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveb4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mneptok [n=mneptok@montreal.canonical.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mneptok belches === BHSPitLappy recoils === andreasn [n=andreas@h37n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F5583.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mneptok [n=mneptok@montreal.canonical.com] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === gouki [n=gouki@unaffiliated/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [01:26] Hi. I'm looking for someone who is interested in helping me out (simple webdesign) with a statistics project for #ubuntu [01:27] ubuntustats.homelinux.org (in case someone wants to check it out) === gouki [n=gouki@unaffiliated/gouki] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@pool-71-96-216-227.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveb4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === _MMA_ [n=mma@cpe-071-070-203-016.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === _MMA_ [n=mma@cpe-071-070-203-016.nc.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === mhb [n=mhb@ubuntu/member/mhb] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:54] hello art workers [05:56] I wonder ... how's the Feisty artwork going to evolve after those small trouble with Edgy artwork cycle? [06:01] mhb: artwork comunity team will continue their work [06:01] on their respective themes [06:01] however, default theme is still handle behind the curtain [06:02] bersace: hmm ... I find it a wrong decision, but okay [06:02] bersace: does "behind the curtain" mean "not show previews to the public?" [06:02] mhb: i don't know [06:02] there weren't even any spec for artwork [06:03] macslow has nice idea about accelerated gdm login [06:03] with face browser [06:03] but nothing official [06:06] bersace: I wish the way to go would be to open things up, not the other way around [06:06] mhb: i wish so [06:07] but obviously, that's not what sabdfl want [06:07] i don't even know if frank schoep is still our artist in chief [06:07] bersace: you should ask like me, then :o) [06:08] :) [06:08] maybe the right questions on the mailing list would stir a discussion [06:08] ack [06:09] because I know how much publicity the artwork had during the Edgy process [06:10] and I don't understand why nobody discusses it or why( at least) someone in charge won't publish previews, etc [06:18] but I'm not an artist who is able to help. If you are, you should ask those questions :o) [06:18] i'm not too [06:19] i was responsable of wiki reorganisation === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:31] greets bersace [08:32] frank scheop is not aic anymore. [08:34] who is then, [08:34] troy_s: hi [08:34] hi Troy [08:35] Aside from growing pains, there were few problems along the Edgy route that weren't a direct result of sabdfl uninvolvement. [08:36] Well, I am not a direct contributor to artwork but in my opinion the artwork team is somehow dissolving. [08:37] Not so much dissolving. [08:37] but realistically, we can do nothing while sabdfl decides on the Feisty direction. [08:37] Aside from continue to develop community based works. [08:38] hmm [08:38] from my experience I know that when a team stops being concentrated, it dissolves very quickly. [08:39] you need a lot of organisation to put it back on track. [08:39] I wouldn't argue with you on that one. [08:39] We went from about 20 inactive artwork team members to almost 200 over the course of edgy [08:39] and had a good deal of interest / press / etc. [08:40] troy_s: yes, I agree (I was monitoring the Edgy process). [08:41] c'est la vie. [08:42] troy_s: but specifications should have been made on the beginning of the Feisty process, which sadly didn't happen. [08:42] that's because there was no interest on sabs part to do so [08:42] we could very well have grown from the last cycle and worked on them [08:42] but it became clear towards the end that [08:43] sabdfl had different ideas. [08:43] so you/the team will have a very short time to finalize artwork. [08:43] so no one bothered to waste the time. [08:43] there will be no finalizing. [08:43] it will just appear. [08:43] and probably suffer from the same issues that previous incarnations have suffered from. [08:46] i may write the wide theme switcher tool this summer as a SoC [08:47] this will allow to smoothly switch from default theme to community theme [08:47] if there is nice alternative [08:47] for feisty+1, maybe [08:47] well the _really_ unfortunate thing [08:47] is that daniel automated all of the artwork aspects [08:47] (based on franks' effort as well) [08:48] the theme switcher is darn close to being internally useful [08:48] but it doesn't let you set all of the font options [08:48] as per the prefs box (but simple, -- just a gconf adjustment from what i can tell) [08:48] and it obviously doesn't automatically try to change the gdm etc === _MMA_ [n=mma@cpe-071-070-203-016.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [08:49] the wide theme switcher spec i proposed was an improvement of gnome theme properties [08:50] yes i saw that [08:51] basically it simply needs to have FULL font change, WALLPAPER change, etc., as opposed to the options currently afforded [08:51] right now, two fonts are adjustable if you click an additional button, as well as the wallpaper suggestion. [08:51] how wide would a wide theme switcher be? [08:51] see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/wide-theme-switcher [08:52] cool [08:54] troy_s: can't you simply generate a message wave so strong that even sabdfl has to do something with it? [08:54] troy_s: I mean complain _real loud_ [08:55] (you = the whole artwork team, or whoever wants that team to live and produce art) [08:56] well... [08:56] no [08:56] ack [08:56] a) we need to respect sabdfl's opinion [08:56] that said, i believe there is room in the design area of ubuntu, but it will require some demonstration first [08:56] as in demonstrate what is possible, then hopefully have a bit of a groundswell of support. [08:57] that might not happen of course, because are and design, despite being formalized disciplines, tend to generate bikeshedding from even the most quiet people. [08:58] troy_s: what is sabdfl's opinion now? I thought he hasn't made his mind up about the Feisty artwork yet. [09:02] one of the interesting things for me in the last cycle was that sabdfl has expressed his concerns over the artwork first at the later stages of the cycle [09:02] No he has. [09:02] What is interesting is that we had checkpoints the entire way to refined the search pattern as it were [09:02] and he participated in none. [09:03] even though he had many elements that he liked at various steps. [09:04] the problem wasn't so much our end, but rather the lack of decision making [09:04] frank ended up making decisions, even though he knew that he couldn't. [09:04] troy_s: I agree. There has to be someone who is devoted to the process and, at the same time, able to make decisions. [09:05] and, quite frankly, he is unwilling to let that go. it is almost as though he would prefer that design of ubuntu be directly suited to himself, as opposed to a more general audience. [09:09] troy_s: hmm ... reading your LP profile and the ubun2 page [09:09] troy_s: is that what you described as "demonstrate what's possible" ? [09:10] possibly [09:10] depends on how it evolves. [09:12] it will require a lot of work. [09:12] I see [09:16] a lot of the active Edgy designers participate in there [09:16] Some. Our time is limited. I am currently working on getting Paul Davey on board. [09:16] He has thus far done up a mock or two, but unfortunately in Photoshop, so I can't apply it yet. [09:17] I have also been in touch with the fellow from 555design.org, and he expressed some interest -- possibly to do the default wallpaper as his style is very well suited for the direction. [09:20] troy_s: I'll keep my fingers crossed for you [09:20] No need really. We will just need to see what sabdfl cooks up. [09:20] you said he has made up his mind about Feisty artwork - what were his ideas then? [09:23] I think [09:23] he is pursuing the rather folly stricken path of gloss and shine [09:23] as opposed to attempting to push computer operating system design past the cliches [09:26] innovation is always misunderstood :o) [09:26] which will be no shocker when all of the design buffs start seeing that apple _finally_ will start applying the trend that is pretty much in full swing outside of oses [09:26] and then i suppose everyone will be doing it. [09:26] well, I myself seem to like the clarity of the glossy UIs like Aqua or Aero [09:27] subjective relativity personally. [09:27] design changes [09:27] in 10 years we will look back and say 'what the hell were we thinking'? [09:27] which is healthy [09:27] sure, we must move on [09:27] but we must stay ahead of the curve, not chase design trends from the late 90s [09:27] if you don't believe me, take a look at the trend that apple is moving in with itunes [09:28] vista will show to all that gloss is well _overdone_ [09:28] to a gaudy level. [09:28] chasing to be 'just like the other kids' never works in art and design. never has. never will. [09:28] 2nd rate citizen with no hopes for surpassing the leaders. [09:30] well, trends may bring a lot of new users as wel [09:30] OS and artwork are a bit different worlds [09:30] art may become respected after several years or decades, even [09:31] but after several years an OS can become respected, but will not be used a lot, because its' features are outdated [09:33] actually [09:34] what you will find is that art / design trends and movements spans far greater areas than you probably [09:34] think [09:34] in fact, what you find is that culturally we follow artistic trends and movements [09:34] and those trends are reflected across almost everything we do [09:34] for example, [09:35] if one were to compare something seemingly as trivial as say, car logo ornaments ('ford', 'dodge' etc.) [09:35] and look at the sizes in the 50's [09:35] you will see that they were _huge_, covering the bulk of a gate etc. [09:35] then as we moved into the anti-commercialism phase of the 80's, they couldn't make them small enough [09:35] now, you will see that they have been steadily growing in size yet again [09:36] for example, the honda logo is almost 10cm across now on newer models. [09:36] all of that basically illustrates that contemporary cultural attitudes are always reflected in art and design [09:37] architecture is another area to examine if you want to see almost literal examples of attitudes embodied in design. [09:39] probably so [09:40] so what you're trying to do with ubun2 is to make the attitude more visible? [09:40] well largely u2 is about taking what ubuntu 'feels' like from the standpoint of a user who hasn't utilized it. [09:41] if you read the new design guidelines, you will see that it targets attracting folks to it. [09:41] this means taking cues from the term 'ubuntu', how it is created, etc... and attempting to communicate those elements through solid design practices. [09:41] ultimate, on some level, all of art and design is communication. [09:42] if it fails to communicate, it fails. this applies to interface elements, usage, aesthetics, etc. [09:43] I would go almost as far as to say that I work at a marketing company [09:43] (but I won't; I work at a design company. But the two are very tightly related, as you say.) [09:43] indeed. by no strange coincidence marketing and design are complexly intertwined. [09:44] oh, drat, that reminds me I still need to do some editing to that flash site === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [09:47] then it would be easy to assume that designers (as well as marketing) can push their ideas into production [09:48] not sure what you mean. [09:49] ? [09:49] I'm kind of surprised that artwork team (close to marketing) has problems with pushing their ideas into Ubuntu [09:49] well we must always accept that [09:50] a) not all ideas are great. [09:50] b) ultimate democracy won't help the picture. [09:50] c) the success of ubuntu is largely because of sabdfl's leadership, so we should at least respect his decisions even when we perceive them to be slightly off. [09:51] considering that _no_ one has developed an operating system that wants to compare against ms and osx, it is a learning curve for all. === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [09:51] further still, the respective teams need more people with formal education and experience. [09:51] in my opinion. [09:52] yes [09:52] otherwise it is just a tub of bike shedders. [09:52] launchpad is designed for the work of the teams and the admins who can make decisions [09:52] however [09:52] that assumes that the final decisions rest in the hands of a given number of people [09:53] which is a false assumption. [09:54] really? why do you think so? [09:55] all Launchpad is build on this principle, in my opinion :o) you have the core devs, the council, the members ... [09:56] even though everyone can submit bugs/specs, the decision comes from above === Ubug2 [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [09:57] The decisions at some point, start and stop with sabdfl. [09:57] At least for now. [09:57] without his monetary support, ubuntu would probably just flounder the way that many other distributions do. [09:57] troy_s: yes, of course [09:58] but you must not forget all those volunteers. Kubuntu (my distribution of choice) pays only 2 of its developers (AFAIK), and one is an artwork designer (Ken). [09:59] Well I don't know if Ken is on the payroll this cycle... I know he was trying to get on again. [10:00] I'm not sure either. === sioux [n=sioux@adsl-76-158.37-151.net24.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:02] in my opinion the system of a paid employee as an administrator and other people as volunteers works quite well [10:02] if more people can make the decision, only better [10:02] I think it works great. [10:03] But again, Kubuntu has more or less free reigns as it isn't the principle driven project. [10:03] sabdfl certainly is supporting as much of free software as he can [10:03] but 'his' project is Ubuntu, and with it, he exerts extremely careful measure (even if a completely relative statement :) ) === Ubug2 [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === sioux [n=sioux@adsl-76-158.37-151.net24.it] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] [10:06] troy_s: it probably he has more or less the right to do it. But still, he can't oversee everything. [10:07] troy_s: when do you plan to finish Ubun2 (or make a stable release) ? [10:08] well now that my show has wrapped [10:08] i am attempting to pound away on the metacity elements [10:09] and build a .1 release out of that [10:09] probably by new year [10:09] which will only offer up metacity ... possibly a few base icons from davey [10:09] if i can get him up to speed quick enough [10:10] so you're doing a new icon set as well? [10:12] well my view is that if you are going to design something [10:12] you should consider the 'whole' not just small parts [10:13] otherwise it is a rather frankenstein approach. [10:13] I'm confident that many people will like my theme once it's finished. I'm thinking of setting some kind of bounty for someone to do the programming part. [10:14] Since I really can't do that myself and have no intention to figure out how [10:15] We actually have a couple of programmer types in our midst [10:15] many of whom i have the utmost respect for [10:15] bersace being one capable coder [10:15] and sittisal i believe is a decent packager etc. [10:16] ack :) [10:16] i sent davey some mail regarding a mock. [10:16] msikma: what kind of programming do you need? [10:16] he basically mocked up a completely fresh folder icon [10:16] which was very organic, but missing the elegant component. [10:16] i do only coding, no artwork :) [10:16] mhb: well, I'm working on a theme from scratch. I don't know how to do metacity/etc. markup [10:16] metacity is easy [10:16] as is gtk sik [10:16] Plus some tiny other things like packaging the cursors etc. [10:17] but you should delve in yourself to figure out the limitations. [10:17] yeah, that, I probably should anyhow [10:17] otherwise your expectations will be limited [10:17] also, you should read some of the docs in the cvs regarding metacity 2 [10:17] etc. [10:17] there are some slight theme adjustments. [10:17] does it support cool new features? [10:18] I really want anti-aliased corners [10:18] I also don't really see how it isn't viable from a technical point of view, since we now have SVG/32-bit PNG icons too. === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:29] png isn't really a useful aspect [10:29] svg is far more suitable to today's day and age. [10:30] and the anti-aliased corners are a byproduct of the compositing system [10:30] it is possible to augment the way windows are handled and achieve it, but i don't know who would do that. [10:32] there's also a lot to be said against svg usage. [10:33] like? [10:35] well, for starters, the format is much more complex than png. it's very, very easy to screw up a vector image by having useless/invisible shapes that take up rendering time/ram. [10:35] whereas a png is just a grid of pixels. [10:35] it isn't rendered dynamically [10:35] i belive they are cached. [10:35] so that isn't a huge factor. [10:36] the problems would still arise when resizing an image. [10:36] Hrm... not exactly if they are cached [10:36] you spend your cycles at the head, then it is done. [10:37] basically, the svgs are nothing more than dynamically created pngs that are cached more or less. [10:37] you don't cache them at infinite size. [10:37] if you resize an svg larger than the version in cache, it needs to be rendered. [10:37] no, they take the dest [10:37] rect [10:37] and render them [10:37] once it is done, it is done. [10:38] the only time that a svg might require dynamic rendering would be in an animated grow /shrink, but even then, in a good implementation, that caching would take place long before you require it. [10:39] <_MMA_> Hi guys. I hope Im not interrupting. Im the lead on the Ubuntu Studio. In a week or 2 would anyone mind test-driving our theme so far? [10:39] <_MMA_> Heres a current (work-in-progress) screenshot: http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/3971/screenshot2nz4.png [10:39] <_MMA_> (Its big) [10:39] love to. [10:39] great work on that by the way [10:39] i am quite happy that you idle here. [10:39] you should be commended [10:39] <_MMA_> Thanx. We're tryin. [10:40] any hope of turning it into a nle as well? [10:40] woah. that color contrast is gigantic. [10:40] as i work in the film industry, i would love to it. [10:40] is this, uh, what engine is that called again? [10:40] <_MMA_> Im sorry. nle? [10:40] <_MMA_> Murrine [10:40] yeah [10:40] non linear edit suite [10:40] <_MMA_> For video? [10:40] I don't really like murrine too much. [10:41] you probably can't really see the 'murrine' element sik [10:41] _MMA_ film and video yes. [10:41] what you are seeing in that screenshot sik is the theming. [10:42] <_MMA_> troy_s: Ahh... We're currently tryin to work out the license issues with Cinelerra. [10:42] which is more or less vistaized. [10:42] <_MMA_> lol. Ouch. :) [10:42] <_MMA_> We're also workin on Jahshaka. [10:43] Awsome! [10:43] Jahshaka looks very promising. [10:43] Any chance of collaborating with the cinelerra CVS folks? [10:44] <_MMA_> It does, but it seems as though pro video work on linux is lacking. [10:44] indeed. [10:44] <_MMA_> Well we havnt had direct collaboration with them but we talk with them. [10:44] largely because the tools aren't quite there. [10:45] but jashaka with some of the high end cinelerra already developed bits would probably put it well on the map. [10:45] <_MMA_> Ill take your word for it. Im a audio/art guy myself. :) [10:46] troy_s: sure I can. Remember when viper550 ported the human layout to murrine? You could very easily see the limitations, and this theme also exhibits that. [10:46] If it's impossible to tell it's murrine, then surely I wouldn't have noticed. [10:46] hrm... what are you seeing msik? [10:47] Nevertheless, keep the chin up -- your project is much needed... although I would prefer to see it as a metapackage if possible... [10:47] As I would like to add the meta... what do you folks do differently? [10:47] <_MMA_> Honestly, Murrine is a test. If we find out that it doesnt do what we want we'll look at something else. [10:48] msikma: the scrollbars to stink in murrine, which is why i am using pixbuf for the proofs of principle. [10:48] in fact, why more folks don't use pixbuf is beyond me. [10:48] in terms of handling look /feel it cannot be beaten. [10:48] <_MMA_> troy_s: "differently " as far as what? :) [10:48] <_MMA_> Im thinking Murrine was it so far. [10:49] well i am wondering why you package it as a full blown distro as opposed to a metapackage... unless that has changed. [10:49] troy_s: mostly the combo boxes [10:49] <_MMA_> Ohh... [10:49] outlines are pretty much all gtk in any engine [10:49] <_MMA_> Yea. We have support to do a full blown disk. [10:49] is it metapackaged right now? [10:49] in universe somewhere? [10:49] <_MMA_> It will only be a "Alt" disk. [10:50] <_MMA_> We DID have metas up based on Edgy for testing. [10:50] a couple of quick notes [10:50] aesthetics aside regarding the themes... [10:50] you might want to sub handle the corners with pixbuf [10:50] <_MMA_> We are currently working on getting whats needed into Universe. [10:50] so that you can round the gloss [10:50] as opposed to the linear travel across the 3d look [10:50] round it down [10:50] that is two pixmaps [10:51] and a relatively simple add in to your metacity xml file. === _MMA_ saves chat log. [10:52] <_MMA_> You guys know of Ayo? A French guy that does some nice art? [10:52] let me see if i can scrub up some syntax. [10:52] no... [10:52] links? [10:52] <_MMA_> http://www.73lab.com/index.php?menu_item=0&curr_lang=1 [10:53] <_MMA_> Hes gonna do a wall for us: http://ayo73.free.fr/ubuntustudio/logo-ubuntu-media-1700.png (this is early and wont be the default) [10:53] <_MMA_> You might recognize the art. === ttoine [n=ttoine@sal69-2-82-241-217-159.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:54] yep [10:55] is there here someone very good at gnome theming ? [10:55] learning quickly [10:55] what do you need to know ttoine? [10:56] hey, troy_s [10:56] quick though, i must go pick up my daughter. [10:56] actually, i am using a personalized theme in Ubuntu [10:57] and since the Human theme, i have only one bad thing [10:57] i use the control theme of clearlooks-bright, and i have the text-sign in the checkboxes, or radiobutton, that is too bright [10:57] so i have two questio [10:57] questions [10:58] text-sign? [10:58] as in the text that appears besides radio/checks? [10:58] http://ttoine.net/capture.png [10:58] no, not besides [10:58] the check character [10:59] ahh the actual check [10:59] now i am with you [10:59] quickly: clearlooks bright? [10:59] yep [10:59] as your window controls? [10:59] yes [10:59] what package is that in? [10:59] with a human theme base [10:59] no package [10:59] i just changed the details of the human theme in theme preferences [10:59] let me do a quick look [11:00] with the old human-legacy, the checkboxes look good [11:00] Clearlooks [11:00] since the new one, it is too bright$ [11:00] ClearlooksAlternative [11:00] is all i see [11:00] troy_s: no, i have the Human for windows border, and clearlookbrights for control, and tango or tangerine for icons [11:01] what i would like to do is just change the color of the checkboxes so they are not too bright [11:01] yes i don't have clearlooks bright [11:01] and second, i would like to know how i can package that specifiec theme [11:02] its very easy to do [11:02] actually, i would like to keep a human base, as possible [11:02] email me though, i really must head out. [11:02] you can find me in launchpad easily. [11:02] the colour is basically relatively simple to adjust [11:02] if you bomb into gtkrc [11:02] ok i must run for a few... sorry guys. [11:03] troy_s: no matter, i email you [11:03] what do you need ? [11:03] i just need to see where clearlooks bright is coming from [11:03] as in, if it were clearlooks, i can browse the files... clearlooks bright i don't see. [11:04] if it is clearlooks, then just go into /usr/share/themes/Clearlooks [11:04] ok, so you want me to send you the clearlook theme i am using ? [11:04] and adjust the gtkrc file under gtkrc2.0 [11:04] just email me a reminder... i will look into it. [11:04] also send me exactly what window control you are using... [11:05] as in the full name. [11:05] ClearlooksBright I don't have [11:05] and it isn't installed by default. [11:05] nor can i find it easily in the repos. [11:05] the windows control i standard Human [11:05] i just changed the control theme [11:08] troy_s: wich troy are you on launchpad ? [11:09] https://launchpad.net/people/troy-sobotka/ [11:09] :o) [11:10] I was reading it today, so I had the address saved ... [11:10] ok, thanks a lot === bersace [n=bersace@did75-13-82-243-217-90.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [11:20] troy_s: thanks for the title ;) === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [11:36] troy_s: mail sent [11:36] thanks