[12:18] <mdke> what do you think of the left/right split? maybe there should be one
[12:19] <mdke> there are something like 14 topics... they won't fit well
[12:22] <mdke> we could relegate the "Getting more help" and "Contribute to Ubuntu" topics to the interweb
[12:24] <mpt> well, if it was ok to put "Getting more help" on the Web site, people would already know to look on the Web site for more help ;-)
[12:25] <mdke> that makes no sense!
[12:25] <mdke> all it does it point to the various parts of the internet support community anyway, all it would add is an extra click, to the website
[12:27] <mpt> ok, but even if it's just a direct link to the Web site, it still needs to be on the front page
[12:28] <mpt> but the number of topics probably could be reduced
[12:28] <mdke> oh I see
[12:28] <mdke> you're not reading my mind.
[12:28] <mdke> What I meant to say was "relegate the X and the Y topics by adding a sentence about them to the front page"
[12:29] <mpt> Replace a topic link with a sentence?
[12:29] <mpt> Wouldn't that take more room?
[12:29] <mpt> I'm probably not understanding
[12:29] <mpt> It's too early in the afternoon
[12:29] <mdke> well, the sentence would be in the right column
[12:29] <mdke> and have a link to the website
[12:29] <mdke> the topics would be down the left
[12:31] <mdke> mpt: i'll try and do a mockup... it's a bit late, I'm explaining myself badly
[12:31] <nixternal> mdke: for a GNOME app :)  that looks pretty good
[12:31] <mdke> nixternal: check out the scrollback - mpt has some good ideas for your mockup too
[12:32] <mdke> or rather, his ideas apply equally
[12:34] <mpt> I don't think "Games" or "Programming" are suitable as top-level categories
[12:34] <mpt> and "Office" I'm not sure of, either
[12:35] <mdke> mpt: what would you do with em?
[12:35] <mpt> This isn't an index to everything we have help for, it's help on the OS-in-general
[12:35] <mdke> this is true, but it's nice to have documents available from navigation as well as search
[12:35] <mpt> Games have their own Help menus
[12:35] <mpt> That's the navigation
[12:36] <mdke> mpt: do you think that there is value in documents which talk about what extra applications the user can install? that's essentially what those documents do
[12:38] <nixternal> mdke: ya, i am going to take some of them into account. we might actually just utilize konqueror with the help:/ linking for our help, since it is better and easier than khelpcenter
[12:38] <mpt> Not much
[12:39] <mpt> Maybe a few paragraphs in the section on adding/removing software
[12:39] <nixternal> im also working upstream on that stuff as well a little bit with kde, awaiting my svn access
[12:39] <mpt> under "What software can I install?"
[12:39] <nixternal> i do like the fact of making it skinnier so-to-speak in order to allow the user to read it and do it at the same time
[12:39] <mdke> mpt: I think you may be right. this would mean essentially nuking games.xml, office.xml and programming.xml
[12:40] <nixternal> im not nuking games.xml thats for sure :)
[12:40] <nixternal> hehe
[12:40] <nixternal> mpt: only because i just got done, or am in the process of finishing the games section :)
[12:41] <mdke> I think it sounds sensible. Obviously, the useful bits might integrate well with the add-applications section, as mpt suggests
[12:41] <nixternal> oh without a doubt they could fall in the add-applications section
[12:41] <nixternal> there is a lot that could fall under that as well
[12:41] <nixternal> since the entire games section is about installing games anyways with a brief exerpt about each game
[12:42] <mdke> quite
[12:42] <mdke> I think I'm with mpt on this, it would also ensure that the topics are focused on substantial sections
[12:47] <mdke> not quite sure the best way to proceed, though. Should we seek further views or simply update the wiki page and get on with it?
[12:48] <mdke> it seems to me that me, nixternal and mpt are driving this topic-based-help ride so maybe we can just go ahead
[12:49] <nixternal> it would be nice to get some extra views, maybe open it up for a few days or so and then if we don't get much, lets just go ahead and rock with it
[12:49] <mdke> alright
[12:49] <nixternal> holidays will make it difficult right now to get some extra views as well
[12:49] <mdke> yes, true
[12:50] <nixternal> mdke: maybe a simple blog post could spark the attention we are seeking about it as well
[12:51] <nixternal> a "what do you think of this" type post, or unleash it to the wolves in #ubuntu
[12:51] <mdke> when I have a good mockup, I'll do that, certainly
[12:51] <nixternal> ya, i need to rework mine as well
[12:52] <nixternal> ooh, time to roll..dad's birthday
[12:52] <nixternal> bbiab
[12:52] <mdke> have fun
[01:07] <mdke> ah great, I've introduced a crash to yelp with my simple patches :)
[01:10] <mdke> aha, invalid html
[01:12] <bdmurray> mdke: I have some time over the holidays and wanted to work some more on documentation, but I haven't received an svn password yet.
[01:13] <bdmurray> I'm happy to keep sending patches but thought having the write access might be easier.
[01:13] <mdke> bdmurray: it's waiting on the admins I'm afraid. They may not be working at the moment, I'll try and find one to get it sped up
[01:14] <bdmurray> mdke: no problem, I understand it is the holidays. ;)
[01:14] <mdke> chasing up now
[01:21] <mdke> mpt: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png (you'll need to help with fixing that bullet pointed list
[01:21] <mdke> but, as a draft, is that better?
[01:22] <bdmurray> maybe Application Management?  That seems more concise
[01:23] <mdke> we'll need to improve the names, definitely. The server one is totally out
[01:23] <bdmurray> The layout looks better though
[01:23] <mdke> mpt: so, those topics can be reduced by 5 (and we can add 2 from Gnome)
[01:24] <mdke> net reduction of 3, which should make it an acceptable size
[01:54] <mdke> mpt_: did you see that last mockup?
[01:54] <mdke> not sure if you were pinging out
[01:54] <mdke> you'd have to have a pretty long pingout, mind
[02:19] <mdke> mpt__: here is one with the topics removed, reordered, and the serverguide reworded: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png
[02:19] <mdke> oh crap, not reordered
[02:40] <mdke> mpt_: dude!
[02:54] <mpt__> mdke, http://mpt.net.nz/temp/ubuntu-help.png
[02:55] <mdke> mpt: heh. quite a lot more radical?
[02:58] <mdke> also, you get to add topics which we haven't written, that's not fair. I can only work with what we have
[03:07] <mdke> mpt: ok, my last try for the night: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png - quick feedback?
[03:07] <mdke> it's missing the two topics that would come from Gnome
[03:10] <mpt> continuous improvement :-)
[03:12] <mdke> mpt: if I get a working patch I think I'll attach it to a bug somewhere. The stuff in the right hand column needs to be made translatable, and we need to improve the css a bit... but I've been struggling so much with the patch system that I'll be pleased to get a patch out of it
[03:12] <mpt> ok
[03:12] <mpt> The bullets problem might merely be because you don't have <ul> ... </ul> around them
[03:13] <mdke> no, I have em
[03:14] <mpt> hmm, odd
[03:14] <mdke> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/38453/
[03:24] <mdke> bug 76944
[03:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 76944 in yelp "Improve yelp index layout" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76944
[03:35] <mdke> mpt: ok, any more ideas on layout/categories welcome at any time, I am very positive about a great outcome for Feisty
[03:36] <mpt> excellent
[06:05] <Ubugtu> New bug: #76952 in ubuntu-doc "basic-concepts.xml is missing the word "them"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76952
[12:14] <mdke> oh great, another tutorial website :(
[08:12] <nixternal> [      mdke]  oh great, another tutorial website :(
[08:12] <nixternal> haha. they are everywhere
[08:12] <nixternal> the more that pops up the more different each howto becomes
[08:21] <mdke> such a shame
[08:44] <mdke> nixternal: I've written to the guy to ask about why he didn't feel able to contribute directly to the Ubuntu documentation, I suspect however the website makes him money, I don't know
[08:48] <nixternal> link me
[08:48] <mdke> I'm referring to the tutorial website that arrived on planet today, hang on
[08:48] <mdke> http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/
[08:48] <nixternal> oh wow
[08:49] <nixternal> ya, i read his post on the planet..the vim one
[08:50] <nixternal> wow, each post has adsense garbage
[08:53] <mdke> my blog has adsense too, it's earning me well over $0.02 every day
[08:53] <nixternal> lol
[08:53] <mdke> but maybe he does better :)
[08:53] <mdke> and he has a donation button
[08:53] <nixternal> i have some as well, but i haven't had one click that i know of
[08:53] <mdke> I think I'll remove em, they suck
[08:53] <nixternal> ya, me too
[08:53] <nixternal> btw, i like your new layout...very clean
[08:54] <nixternal> i am going to eventually get around to doing a clean theme hopefully from scratch when i get some time
[09:32] <mdke> nixternal: cool
[11:33] <mdke> hi mpt
[11:35] <mdke> mpt: what do you think of this structure of the "New to Ubuntu 7.04?" topic: http://mdke.org/tmp/newtoubuntu.png
[11:40] <mdke> popey: around?
[11:40] <popey> yes
[11:41] <mdke> popey: do you fancy trying to set up something like doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts?
[11:42] <popey> sure
[11:42] <mdke> preferred username?
[11:42] <popey> using what? drupal or something?
[11:42] <mdke> for logging in
[11:42] <popey> in order of preference, alan, popey, alanpope
[11:44] <mdke> ok
[11:46] <mdke> popey: query
[11:47] <popey> already there
[11:47] <mdke> ah
[11:47] <popey> oh, hang on, am I not identified
[11:47] <popey> can you see my replies?
[11:47] <mdke> no
[11:47] <popey> doh
[11:47] <mdke> you'll get an error if you're not identified
[11:48] <popey> yeah, in another window waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there
[11:48] <popey> :)