[12:18] what do you think of the left/right split? maybe there should be one [12:19] there are something like 14 topics... they won't fit well [12:22] we could relegate the "Getting more help" and "Contribute to Ubuntu" topics to the interweb [12:24] well, if it was ok to put "Getting more help" on the Web site, people would already know to look on the Web site for more help ;-) [12:25] that makes no sense! [12:25] all it does it point to the various parts of the internet support community anyway, all it would add is an extra click, to the website [12:27] ok, but even if it's just a direct link to the Web site, it still needs to be on the front page [12:28] but the number of topics probably could be reduced [12:28] oh I see [12:28] you're not reading my mind. [12:28] What I meant to say was "relegate the X and the Y topics by adding a sentence about them to the front page" [12:29] Replace a topic link with a sentence? [12:29] Wouldn't that take more room? [12:29] I'm probably not understanding [12:29] It's too early in the afternoon [12:29] well, the sentence would be in the right column [12:29] and have a link to the website [12:29] the topics would be down the left [12:31] mpt: i'll try and do a mockup... it's a bit late, I'm explaining myself badly [12:31] mdke: for a GNOME app :) that looks pretty good [12:31] nixternal: check out the scrollback - mpt has some good ideas for your mockup too [12:32] or rather, his ideas apply equally [12:34] I don't think "Games" or "Programming" are suitable as top-level categories [12:34] and "Office" I'm not sure of, either [12:35] mpt: what would you do with em? [12:35] This isn't an index to everything we have help for, it's help on the OS-in-general [12:35] this is true, but it's nice to have documents available from navigation as well as search [12:35] Games have their own Help menus [12:35] That's the navigation [12:36] mpt: do you think that there is value in documents which talk about what extra applications the user can install? that's essentially what those documents do [12:38] mdke: ya, i am going to take some of them into account. we might actually just utilize konqueror with the help:/ linking for our help, since it is better and easier than khelpcenter [12:38] Not much [12:39] Maybe a few paragraphs in the section on adding/removing software [12:39] im also working upstream on that stuff as well a little bit with kde, awaiting my svn access [12:39] under "What software can I install?" [12:39] i do like the fact of making it skinnier so-to-speak in order to allow the user to read it and do it at the same time [12:39] mpt: I think you may be right. this would mean essentially nuking games.xml, office.xml and programming.xml [12:40] im not nuking games.xml thats for sure :) === mpt cowers [12:40] hehe [12:40] mpt: only because i just got done, or am in the process of finishing the games section :) [12:41] I think it sounds sensible. Obviously, the useful bits might integrate well with the add-applications section, as mpt suggests [12:41] oh without a doubt they could fall in the add-applications section [12:41] there is a lot that could fall under that as well [12:41] since the entire games section is about installing games anyways with a brief exerpt about each game [12:42] quite [12:42] I think I'm with mpt on this, it would also ensure that the topics are focused on substantial sections [12:47] not quite sure the best way to proceed, though. Should we seek further views or simply update the wiki page and get on with it? [12:48] it seems to me that me, nixternal and mpt are driving this topic-based-help ride so maybe we can just go ahead [12:49] it would be nice to get some extra views, maybe open it up for a few days or so and then if we don't get much, lets just go ahead and rock with it [12:49] alright [12:49] holidays will make it difficult right now to get some extra views as well [12:49] yes, true [12:50] mdke: maybe a simple blog post could spark the attention we are seeking about it as well [12:51] a "what do you think of this" type post, or unleash it to the wolves in #ubuntu [12:51] when I have a good mockup, I'll do that, certainly [12:51] ya, i need to rework mine as well [12:52] ooh, time to roll..dad's birthday [12:52] bbiab [12:52] have fun [01:07] ah great, I've introduced a crash to yelp with my simple patches :) [01:10] aha, invalid html [01:12] mdke: I have some time over the holidays and wanted to work some more on documentation, but I haven't received an svn password yet. [01:13] I'm happy to keep sending patches but thought having the write access might be easier. [01:13] bdmurray: it's waiting on the admins I'm afraid. They may not be working at the moment, I'll try and find one to get it sped up [01:14] mdke: no problem, I understand it is the holidays. ;) [01:14] chasing up now [01:21] mpt: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png (you'll need to help with fixing that bullet pointed list [01:21] but, as a draft, is that better? [01:22] maybe Application Management? That seems more concise [01:23] we'll need to improve the names, definitely. The server one is totally out [01:23] The layout looks better though [01:23] mpt: so, those topics can be reduced by 5 (and we can add 2 from Gnome) [01:24] net reduction of 3, which should make it an acceptable size === mpt_ [n=mpt@121-72-134-94.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:54] mpt_: did you see that last mockup? [01:54] not sure if you were pinging out [01:54] you'd have to have a pretty long pingout, mind === mpt__ [n=mpt@121-72-133-117.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:19] mpt__: here is one with the topics removed, reordered, and the serverguide reworded: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png [02:19] oh crap, not reordered === mdke fixes === mpt_ [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:40] mpt_: dude! === mpt__ [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke slaps mpt_'s connection with a fish [02:54] mdke, http://mpt.net.nz/temp/ubuntu-help.png [02:55] mpt: heh. quite a lot more radical? [02:58] also, you get to add topics which we haven't written, that's not fair. I can only work with what we have [03:07] mpt: ok, my last try for the night: http://mdke.org/tmp/yelp.png - quick feedback? [03:07] it's missing the two topics that would come from Gnome [03:10] continuous improvement :-) [03:12] mpt: if I get a working patch I think I'll attach it to a bug somewhere. The stuff in the right hand column needs to be made translatable, and we need to improve the css a bit... but I've been struggling so much with the patch system that I'll be pleased to get a patch out of it [03:12] ok [03:12] The bullets problem might merely be because you don't have

... around them [03:13] no, I have em [03:14] hmm, odd [03:14] http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/38453/ [03:24] bug 76944 [03:24] Malone bug 76944 in yelp "Improve yelp index layout" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/76944 [03:35] mpt: ok, any more ideas on layout/categories welcome at any time, I am very positive about a great outcome for Feisty [03:36] excellent === robotgeek [n=robotgee@c-71-207-201-224.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === towsonu2003 [n=towsonu2@c-69-251-20-244.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jenda [n=jenda@ubuntu/member/jenda] has joined #ubuntu-doc === jeffsch [n=jeff@dhcp561-1-99.dsl.ucc-net.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc === paddy [n=irc@HSI-KBW-085-216-070-153.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc === UbuntuStats [n=StatsBot@unaffiliated/ubuntustats] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt_ [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === bdmurray [n=theman@c-24-21-235-175.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [i=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === crimsun [n=crimsun@dargo.trilug.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === robotgeek [n=robotgee@ubuntu/member/robotgeek] has joined #ubuntu-doc === poningru [n=poningru@pool-71-251-119-157.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-doc === sladen [i=paul@starsky.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === ktogias [n=ktogias@ppp124-65.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #ubuntu-doc === nnonix [n=brad@209.131.224.102] has joined #ubuntu-doc === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-doc === enrico [n=enrico@debian/developer/enrico] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Ubugtu [n=bugbot@ubuntu/bot/ubugtu] has joined #ubuntu-doc === popey [n=alan@bishop.popey.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === trappist [i=trappist@linuxkungfu.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc === lionel [n=lionel@ip-61.net-82-216-103.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:05] New bug: #76952 in ubuntu-doc "basic-concepts.xml is missing the word "them"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/76952 === zenrox [i=zenrox@pool-71-115-219-183.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc === xipietotec [n=jackfros@194.115.109.66.static.dis.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-82-105.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:14] oh great, another tutorial website :( === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-82-105.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === joachim-n [n=joachim@AC8F9305.ipt.aol.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc === UbuntuSt1ts [n=StatsBot@bl4-191-101.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir_ [n=Gwaihir@ppp-252-90.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir_ [n=Gwaihir@ppp-252-90.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Gwaihir [n=Gwaihir@ppp-252-90.25-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-doc [08:12] [ mdke] oh great, another tutorial website :( [08:12] haha. they are everywhere [08:12] the more that pops up the more different each howto becomes [08:21] such a shame [08:44] nixternal: I've written to the guy to ask about why he didn't feel able to contribute directly to the Ubuntu documentation, I suspect however the website makes him money, I don't know [08:48] link me [08:48] I'm referring to the tutorial website that arrived on planet today, hang on [08:48] http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/ [08:48] oh wow [08:49] ya, i read his post on the planet..the vim one [08:50] wow, each post has adsense garbage [08:53] my blog has adsense too, it's earning me well over $0.02 every day [08:53] lol [08:53] but maybe he does better :) [08:53] and he has a donation button [08:53] i have some as well, but i haven't had one click that i know of [08:53] I think I'll remove em, they suck [08:53] ya, me too [08:53] btw, i like your new layout...very clean [08:54] i am going to eventually get around to doing a clean theme hopefully from scratch when i get some time === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === Burgundavia [n=corey@ubuntu/member/burgundavia] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:32] nixternal: cool === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined #ubuntu-doc === mpt [n=mpt@121-72-128-188.dsl.telstraclear.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:33] hi mpt [11:35] mpt: what do you think of this structure of the "New to Ubuntu 7.04?" topic: http://mdke.org/tmp/newtoubuntu.png === mdke loves bugging mpt [11:40] popey: around? [11:40] yes [11:41] popey: do you fancy trying to set up something like doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts? [11:42] sure [11:42] preferred username? [11:42] using what? drupal or something? [11:42] for logging in [11:42] in order of preference, alan, popey, alanpope [11:44] ok [11:46] popey: query [11:47] already there [11:47] ah [11:47] oh, hang on, am I not identified [11:47] can you see my replies? [11:47] no [11:47] doh [11:47] you'll get an error if you're not identified [11:48] yeah, in another window waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there [11:48] :) === mdke nods === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-doc