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| klepas | troy_s: that's i guess what i am trying to get through here: the Ubuntu Artwork team will never create artwork for Ubuntu in a "professional development" style. We are not a design studio. | 04:41 |
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| troy_s | klepas: I think that is where you are wrong. There are certainly folks who will never be able to do that, but | 04:42 |
| troy_s | that said, I think it is quite possible to achieve it with some learning and dedication. | 04:42 |
| klepas | i guess that's something i'm never going to shrug off | 04:42 |
| klepas | we're part of the foss community | 04:43 |
| klepas | not a professional design studio | 04:43 |
| troy_s | Otherwise we must simply relegate ourselves to being 'yet another half assed open source project' | 04:43 |
| klepas | not proprietary-structured development | 04:43 |
| klepas | =\ | 04:43 |
| troy_s | Irrelevant. | 04:43 |
| klepas | how is that irrelevant? | 04:43 |
| troy_s | There are structures implemented because they work. | 04:43 |
| klepas | what is ubuntu? | 04:43 |
| klepas | a foss project! | 04:43 |
| klepas | not a proprietary-top-down structured project | 04:44 |
| troy_s | Yes, but free software design has yet to embrace tactics that are proven and work. | 04:44 |
| klepas | ugh | 04:44 |
| troy_s | Not true either. | 04:44 |
| troy_s | What is bzr? | 04:44 |
| troy_s | Not just _anyone_ can push things upstream | 04:44 |
| troy_s | etc. | 04:44 |
| troy_s | But because everyone treats art and design as some abstract silly hobby | 04:44 |
| troy_s | the bikeshedding abounds | 04:44 |
| troy_s | etc. | 04:44 |
| klepas | yes, that is true, but you're not going to tell me the way the folks at Redmond develop Windows is that way the foss community work on Ubuntu | 04:44 |
| troy_s | Ultimately, someone provides direction -- whether it is a corporate boss or a collection of upstream developers. | 04:45 |
| troy_s | Someone says 'yes' or 'no.' | 04:45 |
| troy_s | the difference in FOSS is that you can always walk away and do it yourself. | 04:45 |
| klepas | that is still *very* different from the way the folks at Redmond do things | 04:45 |
| troy_s | probably less that you might think. there is still organization. there is still direction. etc. | 04:46 |
| klepas | no, that's not the chief difference. The chief difference is the community of people who come together to jointly work on something they love, not because they are being paid for it | 04:46 |
| klepas | and the development style is totally different | 04:46 |
| klepas | i'm not saying that foss development is without organisation | 04:46 |
| troy_s | So what has that got to do with avoiding design documents and structure? | 04:47 |
| troy_s | Nothing. | 04:47 |
| klepas | i'm trying to get across that foss development != proprietary development | 04:47 |
| troy_s | Who cares? | 04:47 |
| klepas | who doesn't? | 04:47 |
| troy_s | the point is that when a process works, it works. | 04:47 |
| klepas | wtf? | 04:47 |
| klepas | yes proprietary development might work for companies like MS, but not for foss projects | 04:47 |
| troy_s | What are you talking about now? Are we talking about art and design? | 04:48 |
| klepas | and there are aspects of the development process that both the foss way and the proprietary way both share | 04:48 |
| troy_s | I really have no clue what you are saying now. | 04:48 |
| klepas | i'm trying to point out that foss artwork communities != professional design studios | 04:49 |
| klepas | and thus don't need to start acting like ones | 04:49 |
| troy_s | Ok, now that is entirely different than what you said before | 04:49 |
| troy_s | and yes they do | 04:49 |
| troy_s | if they want to achieve SOME degree of coherency | 04:49 |
| troy_s | that means take direction | 04:49 |
| troy_s | and move with it | 04:49 |
| troy_s | formulate design documents so that _everyone_ can get on the same page. | 04:49 |
| troy_s | some people who have been practicing art and design for many years with a good deal of training MIGHT be able to dive in and follow a style | 04:50 |
| klepas | please read up the ideology of FOSS | 04:50 |
| troy_s | but for the large part, that isn't the case. | 04:50 |
| troy_s | Please get with the program. | 04:50 |
| klepas | it's not proprietary development, in both artwork and code | 04:50 |
| troy_s | Bugger ideology. I am talking about getting a product out there that appeals to folks on a level that they will want to use it... I believe it is referred to as the | 04:50 |
| troy_s | "aesthetic usability effect" | 04:50 |
| klepas | why are you labelling ubuntu a product? | 04:51 |
| troy_s | Because it bloody well is. It is a single entity. | 04:51 |
| troy_s | It is marketed by Canonical. | 04:51 |
| klepas | single entity = product? | 04:51 |
| troy_s | It is a product. | 04:51 |
| troy_s | In fact, one could make a very cohesive argument that Inkscape is a product. | 04:51 |
| troy_s | Etc. | 04:51 |
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| msikma | argh, why is it so hard to make a small circle with an outline that appears _exactly_ 1 px thick? | 01:51 |
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