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| alex-weej | http://alex-weej.blogspot.com/2006/03/human-user-group.html | 02:44 |
|---|---|---|
| Hobbsee | alex-weej: look at the callender | 02:48 |
| alex-weej | Hobbsee: ? | 02:48 |
| alex-weej | yes i know i posted it in March, i still think it's a good idea! :P | 02:49 |
| Hobbsee | alex-weej: it's the day after christmas day, or still christmas day - most people arent going to be looking @ irc | 02:49 |
| alex-weej | oh right :P | 02:49 |
| alex-weej | well... you saw it, right? :P | 02:49 |
| Hobbsee | sure, but i dont deal in gnome | 02:50 |
| mjg59 | alex-weej: I'm not entirely convinced by the assertion. Real users go in the 1000+ range. System users shouldn't. | 02:52 |
| mjg59 | So why worry? | 02:52 |
| alex-weej | well when i setup a package | 02:53 |
| wasabi_ | heh, did somebody just change back to spacial nautilus? :) | 02:53 |
| wasabi_ | my naut just switched back after an update | 02:53 |
| alex-weej | and it creates a new user with uid=1004 | 02:53 |
| Lathiat | it shouldnt | 02:53 |
| alex-weej | i don't want to see that jazz in my facebrowser! | 02:53 |
| alex-weej | Lathiat: that's not the point | 02:53 |
| mjg59 | alex-weej: It shouldn't | 02:53 |
| Hobbsee | fix the package so it shouldnt? | 02:53 |
| mjg59 | And that *is* the point | 02:53 |
| alex-weej | i don't know whether you guys realise this | 02:53 |
| alex-weej | but there are only 999 numbers less than 1000. | 02:54 |
| wasabi_ | Actually there are infinity, when you consider negative values. | 02:54 |
| mjg59 | And you're going to have over 999 system users on a single system? | 02:54 |
| wasabi_ | Just making sure you know. ;0 | 02:54 |
| alex-weej | mjg59: again, not the point | 02:54 |
| === Lathiat has never seen hsi system users coutn go above, ~120 | ||
| mjg59 | alex-weej: ... | 02:54 |
| alex-weej | ideally, we'd be using UUIDs anyway :/ | 02:54 |
| wasabi_ | oh geeze | 02:55 |
| Lathiat | is that a joke? | 02:55 |
| alex-weej | it's a bit crack getting an ext3 file system off a mate's computer and seeing all the file permissions set to local users that makes no sense | 02:55 |
| wasabi_ | nautilus is closing widnows behind itself now too | 02:55 |
| Lathiat | ahh | 02:55 |
| alex-weej | Lathiat: absolutely not :o) | 02:55 |
| Lathiat | so you mean, much longer UIDs | 02:55 |
| mjg59 | alex-weej: Any package that creates a system user in the 1000+ range is breaking Debian policy | 02:55 |
| mjg59 | So it's buggy | 02:55 |
| mjg59 | So you report it and we fix it | 02:55 |
| mjg59 | And that is *entirely* the point | 02:56 |
| wasabi_ | If you WANT to argue about having only 999 system users, then we can certainly do so. | 02:56 |
| alex-weej | mjg59: but debian rules the world. you can't fix third party packages. | 02:56 |
| wasabi_ | =) | 02:56 |
| alex-weej | wasabi_: i'd say a more useful argument is based on the case i suggested above | 02:56 |
| mjg59 | alex-weej: If .debs don't conform to Debian policy, they're broken | 02:56 |
| wasabi_ | You mean third party apps? | 02:56 |
| mjg59 | It's not our job to fix them | 02:56 |
| wasabi_ | If a third party app overwrites all of /usr, we're not going to fix it, either. | 02:57 |
| Hobbsee | alex-weej: and they dont tend to make it in the archives, either | 02:57 |
| alex-weej | when uid's no longer become simply sequential numbers, you CAN'T rely on it being somewhere above 1000. | 02:57 |
| wasabi_ | Sure you can. | 02:57 |
| mjg59 | alex-weej: When it's an issue, we'll deal with it | 02:57 |
| alex-weej | it is an issue now. see my example! | 02:57 |
| wasabi_ | Wish teh third party software? | 02:57 |
| alex-weej | with the file system | 02:57 |
| wasabi_ | Huh? | 02:58 |
| mjg59 | It's an issue because you've installed some piece of shit package produced by either an incompetent or someone ignorant of the fact that it's behaving like that | 02:58 |
| alex-weej | uid 1003 on a foreign system does not correspond to uid 1003 on my system | 02:58 |
| wasabi_ | That would be correct. | 02:58 |
| alex-weej | if they were both UUIDs, this would not be a problem | 02:58 |
| wasabi_ | ... | 02:58 |
| alex-weej | as they would never match anyway | 02:58 |
| wasabi_ | You want to fix that, go whine someplace else. | 02:58 |
| wasabi_ | Specifically to the guys behind POSIX. | 02:58 |
| mjg59 | uids are 32-bit numbers. | 02:58 |
| Lathiat | thats a much bigger issue | 02:58 |
| mjg59 | Ubuntu can't fix that. | 02:58 |
| wasabi_ | Yes, that issue is huge. | 02:58 |
| Lathiat | also, UUIDs don't guarantee that'l *never* happen | 02:59 |
| mjg59 | A 32-bit number does not usefully identify every UNIX account on the planet | 02:59 |
| Lathiat | it just increases the problem space ;) | 02:59 |
| alex-weej | no, but they make the chances unreasonably slim | 02:59 |
| alex-weej | pfft | 02:59 |
| alex-weej | "Windows does it" | 02:59 |
| wasabi_ | alex-weej: Don't get ME wrong anyways, I am all for UUIDs. | 02:59 |
| wasabi_ | I have other issues which are impossible with 32 bit UIDs. | 02:59 |
| wasabi_ | Which I am keenly interested in solving. I just know it's not something a few guys in the ubuntu channel can tackle right now. ;0 | 03:00 |
| alex-weej | lol | 03:00 |
| alex-weej | i wasn't implying that it was | 03:00 |
| mjg59 | It's not a problem that gets fixed by creating a human group | 03:00 |
| alex-weej | true | 03:00 |
| alex-weej | but the human group means that one less thing is relying on numerical sequentiality of uids | 03:01 |
| mjg59 | In Debian-based systems, real users have UIDs that are 1000 or above. Other users don't. | 03:01 |
| wasabi_ | Wait, what relies on numerical sequentialiy? | 03:01 |
| mjg59 | So, given that users are already clearly defined as human or not-human, there's no need for a human group | 03:01 |
| wasabi_ | ranges != sequentially. EVen Windows has "ranges" | 03:02 |
| wasabi_ | Special SID prefixes which correspond to system users, etc. | 03:02 |
| wasabi_ | There's nothing significantly different from <1000 and that. | 03:02 |
| alex-weej | except there are probably more than 999 different system services that might require specific well-known UID available for windows :P | 03:03 |
| mjg59 | alex-weej: Oh, hey, if that's your concern, we only offer 100 specified UIDs | 03:03 |
| wasabi_ | alex-weej: Nope, not really. | 03:03 |
| mjg59 | Oh, wait | 03:04 |
| wasabi_ | alex-weej: There's like, 30. | 03:04 |
| mjg59 | Sorry, 4100 | 03:04 |
| mjg59 | 5100 | 03:04 |
| alex-weej | ok | 03:06 |
| alex-weej | i can live with debian's policy of humans having 1000 <= UID < whatever | 03:07 |
| wasabi_ | Anyways, there are other more worthy things to complain about. | 03:07 |
| wasabi_ | LIke that the face browser actually ENUMERATES using getpwent from 1000 to the end. ;) | 03:07 |
| alex-weej | like Firefox? | 03:07 |
| === alex-weej coughs | ||
| alex-weej | tbh fuck it all | 03:09 |
| alex-weej | we should be logging people into ubuntu with OpenID! | 03:09 |
| wasabi_ | No way. | 03:09 |
| === alex-weej runs | ||
| wasabi_ | But it should be an option. :) | 03:09 |
| alex-weej | wasabi_: that WAS a joke. :P | 03:09 |
| alex-weej | yeah anyway going back to the whole UID jazz just for a second | 03:13 |
| alex-weej | genuine question: what exactly makes stuff like sysvinit replaceable within the scope of ubuntu, but not stuff like that? | 03:14 |
| mjg59 | Changing uid to something other than a 32-bit value would break POSIX compliance | 03:16 |
| mjg59 | And hence NFS, NIS, LDAP, Hesiod and so on | 03:16 |
| alex-weej | right | 03:18 |
| alex-weej | that's less than good | 03:18 |
| === alex-weej ponders the notion of one ID per unix account in the world for just a second | ||
| alex-weej | it does seem crack when you put it that way | 03:19 |
| alex-weej | but still useful :F | 03:19 |
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| wasabi_ | The problem is a real world one. | 03:28 |
| wasabi_ | Windows SIDs work, for distributed environments, you know.. Active Directory. | 03:28 |
| wasabi_ | And they're pretty much a requirement for that line of work, imo. So, we'll fix it eventually. | 03:28 |
| wasabi_ | Smart UID allocation or mapping policies aren't bad though. | 03:28 |
| wasabi_ | 32 bits really is enough for a single organization. Just not for every individual on the face of the planet. | 03:29 |
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| alex-weej | wasabi_: *nod* | 04:01 |
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| bluefoxicy | I'm being hit up for i686 again | 05:25 |
| bluefoxicy | Someone wants my help swaying the devs to deprecate i586 and i486 support | 05:25 |
| bluefoxicy | I told him to profile archlinux against archlinux i486 instead of against Ubuntu | 05:26 |
| Hobbsee | why dont you do the benchmarks yourself, and then talk? | 05:28 |
| bluefoxicy | Hobbsee: I did some microbenchmarks with nbench a while back and got zip. | 06:05 |
| bluefoxicy | I guess I could do some realistic benchmarks | 06:05 |
| Hobbsee | that's the only way you'll get input on it | 06:05 |
| bluefoxicy | maybe build libz + gzip and then compress tons of crap (random data? The analysis that runs takes a long time to figure out it's not getting anywhere) | 06:06 |
| bluefoxicy | but that still leaves actually justifying dropping i486/i586 support OR adding another arch repo; I'd need some pretty impressive bench mark numbers for that, and it's just not going to happen. | 06:07 |
| bluefoxicy | doh.. now I'm curious as to the exact numbers I'll get :/ | 06:07 |
| === bluefoxicy shakes fist at Hobbsee, starts compiling things. | ||
| Hobbsee | haha | 06:08 |
| bluefoxicy | speaking of making things faster, did anyone ever pin down the firefox issue | 06:10 |
| bluefoxicy | it used to be that it would load in like 2 seconds (any other distro; official builds); unless you got it from Ubuntu, then it took 14-25 seconds to load | 06:10 |
| wasabi_ | Um. When making a new package upload, what's the proper way to signify that it should be placed in multiverse? | 06:11 |
| wasabi_ | It's been awhile. | 06:11 |
| bluefoxicy | I believe that goes on the first line in the changelog entry | 06:11 |
| wasabi_ | distro should go there. | 06:11 |
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| bluefoxicy | yer right | 06:12 |
| Hobbsee | wasabi_: i'm not sure. same procedure as universe, i'd expect | 06:12 |
| Hobbsee | one of the distro people would know | 06:12 |
| wasabi_ | Heh. Last time I did this there was no procedure other than asking somebody to NOT put it in universe. | 06:13 |
| Hobbsee | ah | 06:20 |
| Hobbsee | okay then | 06:20 |
| === Hobbsee doenst know | ||
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| neutrinomass | Comments on bug 77009 ? (or should I raise this on the mailing list? ) | 11:51 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 77009 in venkman "failed deps on iceweasel | iceape-browser | icedove" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/77009 | 11:51 |
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| Mithrandir | neutrinomass: looks like something which should be discussed on ubuntu-devel | 12:18 |
| neutrinomass | Mithrandir: ok, I'll send a mail sometime today | 12:22 |
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| === Mithrandir hugs Hobbsee back | ||
| Mithrandir | Hobbsee: how's your xmas been? | 12:25 |
| Hobbsee | Mithrandir: good :) | 12:27 |
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| adam0509 | Sorry, to distrurb, but do someone know about this package : xserver-xorg-input-joystick ? | 02:13 |
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| Hobbsee | adam0509: probably not today, as it's still a public holiday in most countries. and your question is very board | 02:14 |
| Hobbsee | *broad | 02:14 |
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| adam0509 | ok thx | 02:15 |
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| bddebian | Heya | 05:38 |
| _ion | hi | 05:39 |
| bddebian | Hello _ion | 05:40 |
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| Adri2000 | cjwatson, Mithrandir, any archive admin: I have just seen that the binary package homebank-data is in main, while homebank is in universe. homebank-data should be in universe too. I don't know why homebank-data landed in main, but see yourself: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/h/homebank/ :p | 05:52 |
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| fdoving | Adri2000: confirmed. report a bug? | 05:57 |
| Adri2000 | yeah, will do if no archive admin answers | 05:59 |
| bhale | Adri2000: they are on holiday and unlikely to answer until after the new year.. | 06:01 |
| bhale | subscribe ubuntu-archive to your bug report | 06:01 |
| Adri2000 | done, bug 77179, fdoving: you can confirm it :) | 06:09 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 77179 in homebank "homebank-data should be in universe, not in main" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/77179 | 06:09 |
| fdoving | Adri, confirmed. | 06:12 |
| Adri2000 | thanks | 06:13 |
| wasabi | Does anybody have a good overview of the plan regarding udev in the initramfs and mdadm/evms/lvm integration? | 06:17 |
| wasabi | And it's current state. | 06:18 |
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| wasabi | Latest kernel is fun. Locks on boot at Checking aperture. | 06:45 |
| Mithrandir | wasabi: "make udev call evms_activate/vgchange/raidstart when discovering block devices". | 06:57 |
| wasabi | heh | 06:57 |
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| cjwatson | wasabi: multiverse> it's Section: multiverse/whatever in debian/control; but you *can* just let an archive admin override it | 07:31 |
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| cjwatson | wasabi: (you can also mark it non-free/blah or contrib/blah as appropriate per Debian policy, and we'll take that as a signal that it should go in multiverse) | 07:39 |
| wasabi | Ahh. Makes sense. So, seeing as I already uploaded it, and it's in NEW, who do I contact to make sure it gets in the right place? | 07:39 |
| wasabi | (i did not prefix section) | 07:39 |
| Mithrandir | it'll be done by hand by whoever NEWs it. | 07:40 |
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| cjwatson | wasabi: no need | 07:57 |
| cjwatson | er, as Mithrandir said | 07:57 |
| cjwatson | wasabi: if it goes in the wrong place, you can always file a bug afterwards and subscribe ubuntu-archive to have it moved | 07:58 |
| wasabi | k | 07:58 |
| wasabi | thanks. =) | 07:58 |
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| alex-weej | is there some kind of online ubuntu hardware compatibility database? | 08:18 |
| lotusleaf | alex-weej: well there's !hwdb | 08:21 |
| alex-weej | lotusleaf: ta | 08:21 |
| lotusleaf | alex-weej: and some tidbits on the wiki | 08:21 |
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| alex-weej | hmm | 08:22 |
| alex-weej | dunno if hwdb is what i think it is | 08:22 |
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| alex-weej | have you ever seen Wine's AppDB? | 08:22 |
| alex-weej | "Submissions Total: 441642 Today: 235416" | 08:23 |
| alex-weej | wtf? half the hwdb submissions submitted today? | 08:23 |
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| Zober2 | hi guys | 09:23 |
| Zober2 | raid array in dmraid is not recognized by gparted, is there something i need to do before gparted will see the raid array? | 09:23 |
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| _MMA_ | I hope its just me but is there something in place that wont let me go to Feisty from Edgy? | 11:27 |
| _MMA_ | I tried to put in a Feisty daily and use update-manager to upgrade but it said: "Authentication the upgrade failed. There may be a problem with the network or the server. | 11:27 |
| _MMA_ | I was testing the -lowlatency kernels but messed up my partition and had to reinstall. | 11:28 |
| Adri2000 | !seen mvo | 11:36 |
| Adri2000 | thanks nickserv | 11:37 |
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