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| mhb | hi everyone, hi kwwii | 04:17 |
|---|---|---|
| troy_s | greets mhb | 04:23 |
| mhb | how's artwork? | 04:40 |
| === klepas coughs | ||
| mhb | or do you rather enjoy holidays? | 04:40 |
| msikma | Artists never rest. Or sleep, for that matter. | 04:58 |
| klepas | yes they do | 05:00 |
| === klepas is about to shortly :o) | ||
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| n8k99 | hi all | 08:47 |
| n8k99 | mhb: here I is! | 08:50 |
| mhb | n8k99: hi | 08:55 |
| n8k99 | mhb: art art art! | 08:55 |
| mhb | so, what do you say to the Edgy artwork? | 08:55 |
| mhb | Kubuntu Edgy? | 08:55 |
| n8k99 | loved the kubuntu stuff | 08:55 |
| n8k99 | don't really use the gnome version | 08:55 |
| n8k99 | ...however I do prefer the baghira theme for kwin | 08:56 |
| n8k99 | but I have been seeing some stuff that troy_s has been doing for U2 | 08:57 |
| troy_s | ping | 08:57 |
| n8k99 | the brown wood grain is nice - was thinking taht maybe there could be a kde version of that that uses a blue tone | 08:57 |
| troy_s | how goes it guys? | 08:57 |
| troy_s | actually, moving away from wood for the total panel. | 08:57 |
| troy_s | the newest just got upped | 08:57 |
| troy_s | its amber | 08:58 |
| troy_s | as bloody apple looks like it might be migrating into organics | 08:58 |
| mhb | troy_s: so you're moving away from organics? | 08:59 |
| troy_s | hell no | 09:00 |
| troy_s | the light pine though is out, as much as it is quite nice. | 09:00 |
| troy_s | might offer it as an alternative. | 09:00 |
| n8k99 | no- I preferred the darker wood | 09:01 |
| troy_s | the lacquered amber is also appealing though. | 09:01 |
| troy_s | the 'darker' wood is actually amber. | 09:01 |
| n8k99 | right that's the one - but if it had a blue tone it'd be gr8 over here in kdeville | 09:01 |
| troy_s | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2WindowProposals | 09:01 |
| troy_s | well right now the code isn't clean yet... | 09:01 |
| troy_s | as it is all proof of principle | 09:01 |
| troy_s | once it is cleaned | 09:01 |
| troy_s | it will be colorizable and scalable to fonts | 09:02 |
| troy_s | just takes a little more work with the engine rc | 09:02 |
| mhb | troy_s: I don't think apple is moving to wood/metal though | 09:02 |
| troy_s | mhb -- i think you might be incorrect. | 09:02 |
| mhb | troy_s: I think somebody showed you garageband or something, right? | 09:02 |
| troy_s | mhb -- it is a very hot item in design circles right now, and if you look | 09:02 |
| troy_s | at the new bloody j. ives stuff on interface you will see a distinct movement away from plastic gloss | 09:02 |
| troy_s | as in the new itunes | 09:03 |
| troy_s | and the new garageband | 09:03 |
| troy_s | that said, i don't think they can push it as much as we can. | 09:03 |
| troy_s | as their 'boxes' are still very sterile ikea kitchen appliances. | 09:03 |
| troy_s | plastic is simply _done_. | 09:03 |
| mhb | true | 09:03 |
| troy_s | pop5 is pretty much the direction heading now. with an adjustment for top left lighting to follow shortly. | 09:04 |
| mhb | pop5? | 09:04 |
| n8k99 | yeah that's totally the one I am keen about | 09:05 |
| troy_s | proof of principle 5 on that proposal page. | 09:05 |
| troy_s | i adjusted the polish as the rc linework was hogging cycles | 09:05 |
| mhb | ah | 09:05 |
| troy_s | and it simply wasn't communicating the way it should. | 09:05 |
| troy_s | far superior now. | 09:05 |
| troy_s | going to bang out some icon work shortly, as xmas was a time hog. | 09:06 |
| troy_s | top panel needs work now too, and will be matching the window border. | 09:06 |
| mhb | troy_s: cool | 09:09 |
| troy_s | as per the interface design specs.. | 09:09 |
| mhb | n8k99: do you have a screenshot of your preferred kwin theme? | 09:09 |
| troy_s | ideally, i think for usability, the primary desktop surface should inherently imitate the design and implementation of the window | 09:09 |
| n8k99 | mhb: yeah hang on | 09:10 |
| mhb | troy_s: you still need to clearly define the background / foreground | 09:13 |
| troy_s | yes. | 09:13 |
| troy_s | are you speaking about the edges of windows? | 09:13 |
| mhb | troy_s: about the "primary desktop surface" | 09:14 |
| mhb | troy_s: I may have misunderstood the term | 09:14 |
| troy_s | the intention is to develop the focused window and the two panels to be reflective of each other. | 09:14 |
| troy_s | meaning that the close window button and the shutdown/logout button will look identical and be in the identical spots. | 09:15 |
| troy_s | minimize button also will be relfected in the 'show desktop' panel application. | 09:15 |
| troy_s | etc. | 09:15 |
| troy_s | so that the design is inherently intuitive. | 09:15 |
| troy_s | window menu will be in the same position and have the same look as the primary desktop main menu. | 09:16 |
| troy_s | the rest is uncluttered. | 09:16 |
| n8k99 | http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/snapshot1.png | 09:16 |
| n8k99 | that's an old favorite | 09:16 |
| mhb | troy_s: that's going to be hard | 09:16 |
| mhb | troy_s: because you have a lot less space on the window menu | 09:16 |
| n8k99 | but I prefer it blue | 09:17 |
| troy_s | mhb? | 09:17 |
| troy_s | strictly speaking in terms of muscle memory and intuition -- the two menus will be in the same location and offer the same icon | 09:17 |
| n8k99 | http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/konqueror-konsole.png is a better desktop that I normally rock | 09:18 |
| mhb | troy_s: you mean when the window menu is maximized? | 09:18 |
| mhb | troy_s: well, wouldn't that be confusing? | 09:19 |
| mhb | troy_s: I mean when you have a similar icon for "close window" and "shut down the system" people might get confused | 09:20 |
| n8k99 | is that helpful mhb ? | 09:20 |
| mhb | n8k99: sure | 09:20 |
| troy_s | mhb no | 09:20 |
| mhb | n8k99: you're Nathan Eckenrode? Where do I know your name from? | 09:21 |
| troy_s | basically, that the far right button is close window, and the system panel upper will reflect the window properties | 09:21 |
| troy_s | meaning that the window close button | 09:21 |
| troy_s | and the shutdown system / logout button will be in the same location and offer the same icon | 09:21 |
| n8k99 | mhb: no idea? I get around? | 09:21 |
| mhb | n8k99: I must have read it somewhere ... any important project you're a member of? | 09:22 |
| n8k99 | mhb: og has mentioned me a couple times in his blog on the planet | 09:22 |
| n8k99 | I presented *ubuntu with him @ the UN | 09:23 |
| troy_s | og? | 09:23 |
| troy_s | oliver? | 09:23 |
| n8k99 | og marcel: brazil-port translator | 09:24 |
| n8k99 | sometimes my name flashes by in the technical credits for hollywood | 09:25 |
| n8k99 | ? | 09:25 |
| n8k99 | no other clue | 09:25 |
| mhb | troy_s: aren't the users accustomed to the shutdown symbol and to the close button "x" symbol? | 09:27 |
| troy_s | indeed. | 09:27 |
| troy_s | which is why both will probably be an X | 09:27 |
| troy_s | as opposed to muddling the issue with learning new analogies with the power button. | 09:28 |
| mhb | troy_s: how can the user tell that the "X" sign top right does shutdown the system and not closes the current window? | 09:29 |
| mhb | troy_s: they might think that if those two are similar | 09:30 |
| mhb | n8k99: the baghira theme is nice, but you can't use that as a default for Kubuntu | 09:30 |
| mhb | n8k99: the buttons are too Mac-OS like | 09:31 |
| n8k99 | yeah I know | 09:31 |
| n8k99 | that's what I like about PoP 5 - it has the same basic feel | 09:31 |
| n8k99 | just that the colors need to be corrected for kde | 09:32 |
| n8k99 | and the buttons need to be, erm, made more easy to determine what they do | 09:32 |
| kwwii | btw. if anyone is interested in Oxygen, I am creating wiki pages (my favorite pastime) on http://developernew.kde.org/Projects/Oxygen | 09:32 |
| mhb | kwwii: great! | 09:37 |
| mhb | kwwii: thanks | 09:37 |
| mhb | kwwii: any screenshots of the windeco style yet? | 09:38 |
| mhb | n8k99: I guess the current windeco style is not that bad | 09:38 |
| mhb | n8k99: (Kubuntu) | 09:38 |
| kwwii | mhb: the code is in svn, but itis not very far yet | 09:39 |
| kwwii | and from day to day it either builds or it does not | 09:40 |
| mhb | kwwii: I've noticed, but I don't have KDE4 compiled yet | 09:40 |
| kwwii | ie. don't blame me | 09:40 |
| kwwii | :p | 09:40 |
| kwwii | yeah, it is only for kde4 | 09:40 |
| mhb | n8k99: those same-looking buttons may be confusing for first-time users | 09:40 |
| mhb | n8k99: or former Windows users | 09:40 |
| n8k99 | mhb: yes that's why I like having them colorcoded | 09:41 |
| mhb | n8k99: even then | 09:42 |
| mhb | n8k99: at least they are for me :o) | 09:42 |
| n8k99 | mhb: I think that the current default buttons are a bit kludgey | 09:43 |
| n8k99 | could just be me - I like watching the timetrial bike racers more than mountain bike racers | 09:43 |
| mhb | n8k99: kludgey? | 09:44 |
| mhb | n8k99: what do you mean by that? | 09:44 |
| n8k99 | they are square with rounded corners and a symbol on the inside | 09:44 |
| n8k99 | plus they are colored | 09:45 |
| n8k99 | that's four elements per button | 09:45 |
| n8k99 | no coded elements - visual elements | 09:45 |
| n8k99 | s/not/no | 09:45 |
| mhb | n8k99: do you think that's too much? | 09:48 |
| n8k99 | mhb: I actually do | 09:48 |
| mhb | n8k99: they aren't colored when not selected | 09:49 |
| n8k99 | mhb: I'm just much more fond of a circle over a rounded corner square | 09:49 |
| n8k99 | maybe even ovals | 09:50 |
| n8k99 | it's really the button shape that drove me away from the default | 09:51 |
| n8k99 | the rest of it is absolutely gorgeous | 09:51 |
| mhb | n8k99: you can do some proposals if you want | 09:51 |
| mhb | n8k99: but I think the symbols should stay | 09:51 |
| n8k99 | ok | 09:52 |
| troy_s | mhb | 09:52 |
| troy_s | similar tasks should be similarly grouped | 09:52 |
| mhb | troy_s: yes? | 09:52 |
| troy_s | as in, closing a window is very much like closing a desktop session. | 09:52 |
| troy_s | the paradigm shift is only different based on the primary desktop window as compared to the standard windowing system. | 09:53 |
| mhb | troy_s: there are differences, for example the frequency of closing a window / closing a windowing system | 09:53 |
| mhb | troy_s: I close windows every day but I don't end the window session at all (I use the suspend to RAM shortcut) | 09:54 |
| troy_s | mhb, yes. but in practical terms, if you teach a user to use the upper left corner to shut a window down, it isn't a large gap for an average user to figure out that the upper x will indicate similar functionality. | 09:54 |
| mhb | troy_s: I know users don't do that, but they end the session not so often | 09:54 |
| troy_s | again, the target audience is average computing skill based. | 09:55 |
| troy_s | to expand on that, the top panel would be reflective of the top window area on a standard window, and the lower panel is more 'status' based. | 09:56 |
| msikma | You're saying the top bar in Gnome should be like the top bar of a window? | 09:57 |
| troy_s | exactly | 09:57 |
| msikma | why | 09:57 |
| kwwii | we are working on the oxygen style and it will not include a seperation between the top "window decoration" and the toolbar...is that what you mean? | 09:58 |
| troy_s | functional panelling | 09:58 |
| troy_s | well the window that users use on a regular basis | 09:58 |
| troy_s | as in the top 'area' of a window | 09:58 |
| msikma | The top bar in gnome is not the top bar of a window. The top bar of a window is not the top bar in gnome. | 09:58 |
| troy_s | no, but the functionality is similar | 09:58 |
| msikma | So in that case you think we should just make them equal? | 09:58 |
| troy_s | paradigm speaking yes. | 09:59 |
| msikma | They will never have the same functionality. | 09:59 |
| msikma | They don't have it now and they won't have it in the future. | 09:59 |
| troy_s | there is 'affordance' with each | 09:59 |
| troy_s | well actually there are similar traits exhibited in each. | 09:59 |
| msikma | There's similarities between many different parts of an OS, but it's still important that they're different from each other. | 09:59 |
| troy_s | for example, the minimize / maximize buttons all deal with adjusting the current view of a window | 09:59 |
| troy_s | well sure, and a command line is probably the most extreme version of it. | 09:59 |
| troy_s | there is 'affordance' offered in all of the functionality | 10:00 |
| troy_s | meaning | 10:00 |
| troy_s | that a single click doesn't adversely affect anything in the top panel functionality. | 10:00 |
| troy_s | logical grouping would abide by the 'consistency' principle. | 10:01 |
| kwwii | sometimes I wonder who is kidding who | 10:02 |
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| msikma | That doesn't mean we should equalize the top bar of gnome with the top bar of a window. Both have different functionality, and thus a different appearance. The fact that they have similarities won't make anyone believe that they are somehow related. Making it seem as though this is true will only confuse people needlessly. | 10:02 |
| troy_s | i don't believe so... if a menu is in the upper left of a window, one could easily expect a menu in the upper left of the top panel. | 10:03 |
| msikma | Certainly. | 10:04 |
| troy_s | likewise for closing. | 10:04 |
| troy_s | et.c | 10:04 |
| msikma | Even though I'm against the "close session" button at the top-right of the gnome toolbar, that too, I can understand. | 10:04 |
| msikma | It depends on how far you're willing to go. | 10:04 |
| troy_s | simply extending learned paradigms. | 10:06 |
| troy_s | its rather practical. | 10:06 |
| msikma | A widget's design should follow its functionality. | 10:07 |
| msikma | That, and no more or less. | 10:07 |
| msikma | Although it should be noted that a design may add additional functionality. | 10:07 |
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