| === chimai [n=chimai@AAnnecy-152-1-80-72.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-artwork | ||
| chimai | hi :) | 12:43 |
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| === nekohayo [n=jeff@ip216-239-75-22.vif.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork | ||
| nekohayo | hello folks, what are the documentation options available to me to make a fully compliant icon theme? I have checked a few websites, and they seem loosely related, sometimes outdated, and I don't even know what project or what documentation to trust (tango? freedesktop? or the gnome default icon theme?) I have a feeling that what is out there is not entirely complete and accurate :| | 12:45 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: try http://tango.freedesktop.org/ | 12:48 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: freedesktop.org defines the icon naming conventions | 12:48 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: hmm but it in turn points to http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html | 12:49 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: tango is one example of an icon set that follows them | 12:49 |
| nekohayo | I looked at this and thought "what, that is all?" | 12:49 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: yes | 12:49 |
| nekohayo | I mean, themes out there are much more complex/elaborate than that | 12:49 |
| nekohayo | and have far more mimetypes and stuff like that | 12:49 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: well, mimetype naming convention is obvious | 12:50 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: application-specific icons are named after the application | 12:50 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: things like gimp of openoffice themes are separate | 12:50 |
| === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork | ||
| nekohayo | TheSheep: gimp + openoffice, that I somewhat understand the issue... but I don't think mimetype naming convention is obvious... yeah it is for "generic" mimetype "categories" such as "package-x-generic", but that's all you get on that page... I mean there is not even a single paragraph of explanation about that, it's just a table with a dozen of generic mimetypes.. what if someone wants to add an icon for some mimetype such as a "jarnal" | 12:52 |
| nekohayo | file, or a matroska video, or something | 12:52 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: if the mimetype is major/minor, then the corresponding icon is major-minor.foo, where foo is the image extension | 12:53 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: for example, text/html is text-html.svg | 12:54 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I've seen the gtk code that looks for icons, it checks major-minor.foo first, then fallbacks to major-x-generic.foo | 12:55 |
| nekohayo | for applications, "regular" applications such as inkscape and gedit request an icon name such as "inkscape.*", but there are tons of things in the administration/preferences menu I could not figure out :| | 12:55 |
| === chimai wonders why he don't get a single word of what nekohayo and TheSheep are talking about | ||
| nekohayo | and looking at other themes is confusing things up nicely too @_@ | 12:57 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: they will either use one of the "standard" icons, or a non-standard addition, like gnome-something-something or kde-something-something -- in that case look at the gnome or crystal icon themes | 12:57 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: it's still a mess, although slowly clearing up | 12:58 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: looking at gnome 2.16's icon theme, it is scaring me the hell off | 12:59 |
| chimai | Is there any soft which could generate correct icon themes? | 12:59 |
| TheSheep | chimai: there are some scripts on the tango project website | 12:59 |
| chimai | ok, i'm gonna take a look | 01:00 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: in that theme, I can see the same application icons like... 5 times or something, I can see the same mimetype icon 29 times!! how do we know what's good and what's wrong in that? | 01:00 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: the duplicates are usually symlinks | 01:01 |
| chimai | 29 times? O__o | 01:01 |
| chimai | How dirty... :/ | 01:01 |
| TheSheep | chimai: for backward compatibility :) | 01:01 |
| TheSheep | chimai: it was a total mess some time ago, every app for itself | 01:01 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: why backwards compatibility if that theme is shipped "inside" a gnome release? | 01:02 |
| TheSheep | now we at least have a standard to follow, even when some applications are still not up-to-date with it | 01:02 |
| chimai | Eurk... I'm really not an addept of the "backward compatibility", you know... it's because of that that we're still using BIOS and other old things like that | 01:02 |
| nekohayo | hmm | 01:03 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: because changing the icon paths in all those little apps takes time | 01:03 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: and introduces bugs | 01:03 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: you mean the mimetypes and application icon's stuff? isn't that automatic? | 01:03 |
| nekohayo | I did not think application hardlinked to them (it would be a bit crazy imho) | 01:03 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I invested some of my time into researching this some time ago, and I conclude there are some gnome libraries for that, but if you want a pure-gtk, gnome-free application, you need to handle that yourself | 01:04 |
| nekohayo | there IS something in gnome that allows an application to ask "ok what is the icon to use for THIS mimetype" right? | 01:04 |
| nekohayo | mmmh | 01:05 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: as I said, the gtk apps (like the file chooser, for example), just take the mime type, change the / into - and attach an extension at the end... | 01:05 |
| chimai | give me an exemple please... what should the name be for a .ogg file? and for a .wmv ? | 01:06 |
| TheSheep | chimai: I don't remember their mime types | 01:07 |
| chimai | :/ | 01:07 |
| chimai | and where can i find it? | 01:07 |
| TheSheep | application/ogg | 01:07 |
| chimai | it beats me :/ | 01:08 |
| TheSheep | so it would be application-ogg.png (or .svg or .xpm or whatever) | 01:08 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: slightly off-topic but I noticed something... some files "change" mimetypes when I select them (ogg files for example). wtf? :) | 01:08 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: .ogg and .avi are "container" files, .ogg might be either audio or video file, for example | 01:09 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I think that might be the reason | 01:09 |
| nekohayo | hmm | 01:09 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: there are two ways of check the mime type of file | 01:09 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: based on it's name only, or based on the contents | 01:10 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: the system function that does it takes a switch parameter that controls it | 01:10 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: the former is much faster, of course | 01:10 |
| chimai | TheSheep : but how do you know that it's "application"? Where did you find it? :/ | 01:10 |
| TheSheep | chimai: file -i filename | 01:10 |
| TheSheep | chimai: there is a large database of mime types and corresponfing file uhm.. features | 01:11 |
| TheSheep | chimai: test, if you will | 01:11 |
| TheSheep | tests | 01:11 |
| TheSheep | chimai: see 'man magic' for details | 01:11 |
| chimai | chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3 | 01:12 |
| chimai | the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3: application/octet-stream | 01:12 |
| chimai | --> application-mp3.png, right? | 01:12 |
| TheSheep | chimai: no, application-octet-stream.png | 01:12 |
| chimai | ok :/ | 01:12 |
| chimai | ^^ | 01:12 |
| nekohayo | uh wtf.. isn't octet-stream for all the binary things? maybe I'm mixing things up | 01:12 |
| TheSheep | chimai: apparently it failed to determine the mime type for that file and have fallen back to the default | 01:12 |
| nekohayo | ah | 01:13 |
| chimai | (i'm a dummy, but i will understand, don't worry :p ) | 01:13 |
| chimai | chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i ./Desktop/Donnie\ Darko\ -\ Gary\ Jules\ -\ Mad\ World.mp3 | 01:14 |
| chimai | ./Desktop/Donnie Darko - Gary Jules - Mad World.mp3: audio/mpeg | 01:14 |
| chimai | --> audio-mpeg.png ? | 01:14 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: I've been thinking over that backwards compatibility thing, will there be a time when gnome says "OKAY folks, we are NOW breaking every icon theme in this release, make them anew or they will not work", for great justice? | 01:14 |
| TheSheep | chimai: yes | 01:14 |
| chimai | w00t \o/ | 01:14 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: for sure | 01:14 |
| chimai | it sure will be great | 01:14 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: just not yet | 01:15 |
| nekohayo | :| .... any idea when? | 01:15 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: people usually say "I don;t care about your stupid standards, that other distro has pretty icons" | 01:15 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: when enough apps will be updated to use the new standard | 01:15 |
| nekohayo | and how can gnome know that has happened? what kinds of apps are targetted by this counter? | 01:16 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: right now whole lots of them | 01:17 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I think that even parts of gtk | 01:17 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I mean the stock icons and stuff | 01:17 |
| nekohayo | you mean core apps part of gnome, or the vast majority of gtk apps out there on the interweb? | 01:18 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: the icons that are part of the gtk and the gnome libs | 01:18 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: for example, look at /usr/share/icons/gnome/24x24/stock/ | 01:19 |
| nekohayo | I doubt such a thing exists, but is there a checklist of apps that are not yet "fixed" to see the progress coming on? | 01:19 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: they are all out of the standard | 01:19 |
| === nekohayo looks | ||
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I think they are doing serious moves towards this standard since just 2 versions of gnome | 01:20 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: omfg, you mean that on a ~1432 icon theme, the *standard* gnome icon theme, 637 of those are "junk"? | 01:20 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: not junk, just not covered by the freedesktop standard | 01:21 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: that is, they are gnome-specific | 01:21 |
| nekohayo | what will happen of them? stay gnome-specific or all be reviewed to be included into FreeDesktop? | 01:21 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: note how they overlap with the standard ones | 01:21 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: hopefully, at least the ones that exist in the standard will be moved to the standard locations | 01:22 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: one ones that don't will stay gnome-spacific | 01:22 |
| TheSheep | specific | 01:22 |
| nekohayo | any hopes for that happening for gnome 2.18 or 2.20? | 01:22 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I don't track the gnome development, so I have no idea | 01:22 |
| nekohayo | hah :| | 01:23 |
| nekohayo | I really hope they pass the vacuum cleaner in there ;) | 01:23 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I'm sure you could help -- it's mostly tedious work | 01:23 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: hmm, how exactly can I help? I'm just a file renamer, not a programmer | 01:24 |
| nekohayo | if I could make it happen sooner I would be glad to | 01:25 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: try contacting the gnome team maybe, I'm sure there are some pointers on their site | 01:25 |
| nekohayo | (hopefully the gnome website will have a shot of vacuum cleaner too ;)) | 01:25 |
| nekohayo | I think they were planning on reorganizing it | 01:26 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: it's one of the best made website I've seen | 01:26 |
| chimai | http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfmod/project/?gib | 01:26 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I mean from the technical pov, the organisation is weird | 01:26 |
| chimai | seems to be dead :'( | 01:26 |
| TheSheep | chimai: I meant this http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library#Download | 01:27 |
| nekohayo | chimai: just looked at their development mailing list, it has cellphone and video spam @_@ | 01:27 |
| chimai | Oo | 01:28 |
| chimai | that's why I *hate* mailing list | 01:28 |
| chimai | boards are just so much better | 01:29 |
| chimai | if I have something like that : | 01:32 |
| chimai | chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar | 01:32 |
| chimai | Desktop.tar: application/x-tar, POSIX | 01:32 |
| chimai | is the name "application-x-tar", or do i need to use the "POSIX"? | 01:33 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: um, I grabbed that icon-naming tool, tried install.sh and I get "no input file specified." | 01:33 |
| nekohayo | chimai: uh, I thought POSIX was some kind of standard of unix | 01:33 |
| chimai | dunno | 01:33 |
| chimai | :/ | 01:33 |
| nekohayo | "Portable Operating System Interface for uniX" | 01:34 |
| TheSheep | it's "application-x-tar" | 01:34 |
| TheSheep | that POSIX is just an additional comment on the file format | 01:34 |
| TheSheep | not really a mime type | 01:34 |
| chimai | ok | 01:35 |
| chimai | and do you know can i do to make a difference between .bz2 and .tar.bz2 files? | 01:35 |
| chimai | since i obtain this | 01:36 |
| chimai | chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar.bz2 | 01:36 |
| chimai | Desktop.tar.bz2: application/x-bzip2 | 01:36 |
| nekohayo | I don't quite get what I need to do with that icon naming util @_@ | 01:36 |
| nekohayo | be right back, f00d | 01:36 |
| chimai | bon appetit | 01:36 |
| chimai | if I got this | 01:47 |
| chimai | chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file \[Requiem\] \ Simoun\ 16\ \[080EAD1C\] .avi.torrent | 01:47 |
| chimai | [Requiem] Simoun 16 [080EAD1C] .avi.torrent: BitTorrent file | 01:47 |
| chimai | it means that there isn't any existing name yet? | 01:47 |
| chimai | TheSheep ? | 01:49 |
| TheSheep | chimai: file -i | 01:50 |
| TheSheep | chimai: to show the mime type | 01:50 |
| chimai | erf, i forgot it -________- | 01:50 |
| === chimai slaps himself | ||
| TheSheep | chimai: tar.bz2 are obviously .bz2 files, *containing* a .tar file | 01:50 |
| chimai | oh, ok | 01:51 |
| chimai | so i can't make 2 different icons, one for the .bz2 files, and the other for .tar.bz2 files? :'( | 01:53 |
| TheSheep | chimai: I think not | 01:56 |
| chimai | ok :/ | 01:56 |
| TheSheep | chimai: btw, take a look at /usr/share/mime | 01:57 |
| chimai | got it | 01:57 |
| chimai | OMG, you roxxx O__O | 01:59 |
| TheSheep | chimai: there is also a freedesktop.org standard for those names... | 01:59 |
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| chimai | TheSheep : do you know what can be the difference between "audio-mpeg" and "audio-x-mpeg"? | 02:15 |
| === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork | ||
| TheSheep | chimai: 'x' is for 'extended', not originally in the standard | 02:17 |
| chimai | :/ | 02:18 |
| TheSheep | chimai: there is an explanation at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dfilemetadata_2dspec | 02:19 |
| TheSheep | chimai: I haven't read it | 02:20 |
| TheSheep | chimai: sorry, wrong rl | 02:20 |
| TheSheep | url | 02:20 |
| TheSheep | http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dmime_2dinfo_2dspec | 02:20 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: did you try out that icon naming utility? I can't figure out how to run it, and the contents of the "INSTALL" file are the same as every darn tarball out there, it doesn't help | 02:20 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: no, sorry, I only have the general pointers | 02:22 |
| chimai | TheSheep : it doesn't deals with the "x" thing; but thanks anyway ;) | 02:22 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: there is a mailing list for the tango project though | 02:22 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I'm sure they will be able to help | 02:22 |
| TheSheep | no wonder there are so few complete icon themes, eh? :) | 02:23 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: @_@ | 02:23 |
| === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork | ||
| nekohayo | TheSheep: could I quote you? I think I'll need to bring attention to this (of course, "you do not official represent gnome", etc)... at least the icon theme makers must have had lots of problems @_@ | 02:29 |
| nekohayo | officially* | 02:29 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: I'm not affiliated with any team, I doubt mentioning my name will have any result. Of course you can quote me, though. | 02:35 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: note also that my informations are not particulary fresh | 02:35 |
| nekohayo | TheSheep: it's not really about the name, more about the insights you gave me :) | 02:36 |
| TheSheep | nekohayo: you will get much better info on related mailing lists | 02:36 |
| nekohayo | hm hm | 02:36 |
| chimai | sleep time | 02:43 |
| chimai | see you all | 02:43 |
| chimai | and thanks a lot TheSheep ;) | 02:43 |
| TheSheep | good night | 02:45 |
| nekohayo | good night! | 02:45 |
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| troy_s | happy new year to everyone who is in the proper zone :) | 10:40 |
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