[12:43] <chimai> hi :)
[12:45] <nekohayo> hello folks, what are the documentation options available to me to make a fully compliant icon theme? I have checked a few websites, and they seem loosely related, sometimes outdated, and I don't even know what project or what documentation to trust (tango? freedesktop? or the gnome default icon theme?) I have a feeling that what is out there is not entirely complete and accurate :|
[12:48] <TheSheep> nekohayo: try http://tango.freedesktop.org/
[12:48] <TheSheep> nekohayo: freedesktop.org defines the icon naming conventions
[12:49] <nekohayo> TheSheep: hmm but it in turn points to http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html
[12:49] <TheSheep> nekohayo: tango is one example of an icon set that follows them
[12:49] <nekohayo> I looked at this and thought "what, that is all?"
[12:49] <TheSheep> nekohayo: yes
[12:49] <nekohayo> I mean, themes out there are much more complex/elaborate than that
[12:49] <nekohayo> and have far more mimetypes and stuff like that
[12:50] <TheSheep> nekohayo: well, mimetype naming convention is obvious
[12:50] <TheSheep> nekohayo: application-specific icons are named after the application
[12:50] <TheSheep> nekohayo: things like gimp of openoffice themes are separate
[12:52] <nekohayo> TheSheep: gimp + openoffice, that I somewhat understand the issue... but I don't think mimetype naming convention is obvious... yeah it is for "generic" mimetype "categories" such as "package-x-generic", but that's all you get on that page... I mean there is not even a single paragraph of explanation about that, it's just a table with a dozen of generic mimetypes.. what if someone wants to add an icon for some mimetype such as a "jarnal"
[12:52] <nekohayo> file, or a matroska video, or something
[12:53] <TheSheep> nekohayo: if the mimetype is  major/minor, then the corresponding icon is major-minor.foo, where foo is the image extension
[12:54] <TheSheep> nekohayo: for example, text/html is text-html.svg
[12:55] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I've seen the gtk code that looks for icons, it checks major-minor.foo first, then fallbacks to major-x-generic.foo
[12:55] <nekohayo> for applications, "regular" applications such as inkscape and gedit request an icon name such as "inkscape.*", but there are tons of things in the administration/preferences menu I could not figure out :|
[12:57] <nekohayo> and looking at other themes is confusing things up nicely too @_@
[12:57] <TheSheep> nekohayo: they will either use one of the "standard" icons, or a non-standard addition, like gnome-something-something or kde-something-something -- in that case look at the gnome or crystal icon themes
[12:58] <TheSheep> nekohayo: it's still a mess, although slowly clearing up
[12:59] <nekohayo> TheSheep: looking at gnome 2.16's icon theme, it is scaring me the hell off
[12:59] <chimai> Is there any soft which could generate correct icon themes?
[12:59] <TheSheep> chimai: there are some scripts on the tango project website
[01:00] <chimai> ok, i'm gonna take a look
[01:00] <nekohayo> TheSheep: in that theme, I can see the same application icons like... 5 times or something, I can see the same mimetype icon 29 times!! how do we know what's good and what's wrong in that?
[01:01] <TheSheep> nekohayo: the duplicates are usually symlinks
[01:01] <chimai> 29 times? O__o
[01:01] <chimai> How dirty... :/
[01:01] <TheSheep> chimai: for backward compatibility :)
[01:01] <TheSheep> chimai: it was a total mess some time ago, every app for itself
[01:02] <nekohayo> TheSheep: why backwards compatibility if that theme is shipped "inside" a gnome release?
[01:02] <TheSheep> now we at least have a standard to follow, even when some applications are still not up-to-date with it
[01:02] <chimai> Eurk... I'm really not an addept of the "backward compatibility", you know... it's because of that that we're still using BIOS and other old things like that
[01:03] <nekohayo> hmm
[01:03] <TheSheep> nekohayo: because changing the icon paths in all those little apps takes time
[01:03] <TheSheep> nekohayo: and introduces bugs
[01:03] <nekohayo> TheSheep: you mean the mimetypes and application icon's stuff? isn't that automatic?
[01:03] <nekohayo> I did not think application hardlinked to them (it would be a bit crazy imho)
[01:04] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I invested some of my time into researching this some time ago, and I conclude there are some gnome libraries for that, but if you want a pure-gtk, gnome-free application, you need to handle that yourself
[01:04] <nekohayo> there IS something in gnome that allows an application to ask "ok what is the icon to use for THIS mimetype" right?
[01:05] <nekohayo> mmmh
[01:05] <TheSheep> nekohayo: as I said, the gtk apps (like the file chooser, for example), just take the mime type, change the / into - and attach an extension at the end...
[01:06] <chimai> give me an exemple please... what should the name be for a .ogg file? and for a .wmv ?
[01:07] <TheSheep> chimai: I don't remember their mime types
[01:07] <chimai> :/
[01:07] <chimai> and where can i find it?
[01:07] <TheSheep> application/ogg
[01:08] <chimai> it beats me :/
[01:08] <TheSheep> so it would be application-ogg.png (or .svg or .xpm or whatever)
[01:08] <nekohayo> TheSheep: slightly off-topic but I noticed something... some files "change" mimetypes when I select them (ogg files for example). wtf? :)
[01:09] <TheSheep> nekohayo: .ogg and .avi are "container" files, .ogg might be either audio or video file, for example
[01:09] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I think that might be the reason
[01:09] <nekohayo> hmm
[01:09] <TheSheep> nekohayo: there are two ways of check the mime type of file
[01:10] <TheSheep> nekohayo: based on it's name only, or based on the contents
[01:10] <TheSheep> nekohayo: the system function that does it takes a switch parameter that controls it
[01:10] <TheSheep> nekohayo: the former is much faster, of course
[01:10] <chimai> TheSheep : but how do you know that it's "application"? Where did you find it? :/
[01:10] <TheSheep> chimai: file -i filename
[01:11] <TheSheep> chimai: there is a large database of mime types and corresponfing file uhm.. features
[01:11] <TheSheep> chimai: test, if you will
[01:11] <TheSheep> tests
[01:11] <TheSheep> chimai: see 'man magic' for details
[01:12] <chimai> chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3
[01:12] <chimai> the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3: application/octet-stream
[01:12] <chimai> --> application-mp3.png, right?
[01:12] <TheSheep> chimai: no, application-octet-stream.png
[01:12] <chimai> ok :/
[01:12] <chimai> ^^
[01:12] <nekohayo> uh wtf.. isn't octet-stream for all the binary things? maybe I'm mixing things up
[01:12] <TheSheep> chimai: apparently it failed to determine the mime type for that file and have fallen back to the default
[01:13] <nekohayo> ah
[01:13] <chimai> (i'm a dummy, but i will understand, don't worry :p )
[01:14] <chimai> chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i ./Desktop/Donnie\ Darko\ -\ Gary\ Jules\ -\ Mad\ World.mp3
[01:14] <chimai> ./Desktop/Donnie Darko - Gary Jules - Mad World.mp3: audio/mpeg
[01:14] <chimai> --> audio-mpeg.png ?
[01:14] <nekohayo> TheSheep: I've been thinking over that backwards compatibility thing, will there be a time when gnome says "OKAY folks, we are NOW breaking every icon theme in this release, make them anew or they will not work", for great justice?
[01:14] <TheSheep> chimai: yes
[01:14] <chimai> w00t \o/
[01:14] <TheSheep> nekohayo: for sure
[01:14] <chimai> it sure will be great
[01:15] <TheSheep> nekohayo: just not yet
[01:15] <nekohayo> :| .... any idea when?
[01:15] <TheSheep> nekohayo: people usually say "I don;t care about your stupid standards, that other distro has pretty icons"
[01:15] <TheSheep> nekohayo: when enough apps will be updated to use the new standard
[01:16] <nekohayo> and how can gnome know that has happened? what kinds of apps are targetted by this counter?
[01:17] <TheSheep> nekohayo: right now whole lots of them
[01:17] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I think that even parts of gtk
[01:17] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I mean the stock icons and stuff
[01:18] <nekohayo> you mean core apps part of gnome, or the vast majority of gtk apps out there on the interweb?
[01:18] <TheSheep> nekohayo: the icons that are part of the gtk and the gnome libs
[01:19] <TheSheep> nekohayo: for example, look at /usr/share/icons/gnome/24x24/stock/
[01:19] <nekohayo> I doubt such a thing exists, but is there a checklist of apps that are not yet "fixed" to see the progress coming on?
[01:19] <TheSheep> nekohayo: they are all out of the standard
[01:20] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I think they are doing serious moves towards this standard since just 2 versions of gnome
[01:20] <nekohayo> TheSheep: omfg, you mean that on a ~1432 icon theme, the *standard* gnome icon theme, 637 of those are "junk"?
[01:21] <TheSheep> nekohayo: not junk, just not covered by the freedesktop standard
[01:21] <TheSheep> nekohayo: that is, they are gnome-specific
[01:21] <nekohayo> what will happen of them? stay gnome-specific or all be reviewed to be included into FreeDesktop?
[01:21] <TheSheep> nekohayo: note how they overlap with the standard ones
[01:22] <TheSheep> nekohayo: hopefully, at least the ones that exist in the standard will be moved to the standard locations
[01:22] <TheSheep> nekohayo: one ones that don't will stay gnome-spacific
[01:22] <TheSheep> specific
[01:22] <nekohayo> any hopes for that happening for gnome 2.18 or 2.20?
[01:22] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I don't track the gnome development, so I have no idea
[01:23] <nekohayo> hah :|
[01:23] <nekohayo> I really hope they pass the vacuum cleaner in there ;)
[01:23] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I'm sure you could help -- it's mostly tedious work
[01:24] <nekohayo> TheSheep: hmm, how exactly can I help? I'm just a file renamer, not a programmer
[01:25] <nekohayo> if I could make it happen sooner I would be glad to
[01:25] <TheSheep> nekohayo: try contacting the gnome team maybe, I'm sure there are some pointers on their site
[01:25] <nekohayo> (hopefully the gnome website will have a shot of vacuum cleaner too ;))
[01:26] <nekohayo> I think they were planning on reorganizing it
[01:26] <TheSheep> nekohayo: it's one of the best made website I've seen
[01:26] <chimai> http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfmod/project/?gib
[01:26] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I mean from the technical pov, the organisation is weird
[01:26] <chimai> seems to be dead :'(
[01:27] <TheSheep> chimai: I meant this http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library#Download
[01:27] <nekohayo> chimai: just looked at their development mailing list, it has cellphone and video spam @_@
[01:28] <chimai> Oo
[01:28] <chimai> that's why I *hate* mailing list
[01:29] <chimai> boards are just so much better
[01:32] <chimai> if I have something like that :
[01:32] <chimai> chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar
[01:32] <chimai> Desktop.tar: application/x-tar, POSIX
[01:33] <chimai> is the name "application-x-tar", or do i need to use the "POSIX"?
[01:33] <nekohayo> TheSheep: um, I grabbed that icon-naming tool, tried install.sh and I get "no input file specified."
[01:33] <nekohayo> chimai: uh, I thought POSIX was some kind of standard of unix
[01:33] <chimai> dunno
[01:33] <chimai> :/
[01:34] <nekohayo> "Portable Operating System Interface for uniX"
[01:34] <TheSheep> it's "application-x-tar"
[01:34] <TheSheep> that POSIX is just an additional comment on the file format
[01:34] <TheSheep> not really a mime type
[01:35] <chimai> ok
[01:35] <chimai> and do you know can i do to make a difference between .bz2 and .tar.bz2 files?
[01:36] <chimai> since i obtain this
[01:36] <chimai> chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar.bz2
[01:36] <chimai> Desktop.tar.bz2: application/x-bzip2
[01:36] <nekohayo> I don't quite get what I need to do with that icon naming util @_@
[01:36] <nekohayo> be right back, f00d
[01:36] <chimai> bon appetit
[01:47] <chimai> if I got this
[01:47] <chimai> chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file \[Requiem\] \ Simoun\ 16\ \[080EAD1C\] .avi.torrent
[01:47] <chimai> [Requiem]  Simoun 16 [080EAD1C] .avi.torrent: BitTorrent file
[01:47] <chimai> it means that there isn't any existing name yet?
[01:49] <chimai> TheSheep ?
[01:50] <TheSheep> chimai: file -i
[01:50] <TheSheep> chimai: to show the mime type
[01:50] <chimai> erf, i forgot it -________-
[01:50] <TheSheep> chimai: tar.bz2 are obviously .bz2 files, *containing* a .tar file
[01:51] <chimai> oh, ok
[01:53] <chimai> so i can't make 2 different icons, one for the .bz2 files, and the other for .tar.bz2 files? :'(
[01:56] <TheSheep> chimai: I think not
[01:56] <chimai> ok :/
[01:57] <TheSheep> chimai: btw, take a look at /usr/share/mime
[01:57] <chimai> got it
[01:59] <chimai> OMG, you roxxx O__O
[01:59] <TheSheep> chimai: there is also a freedesktop.org standard for those names...
[02:15] <chimai> TheSheep : do you know what can be the difference between "audio-mpeg" and "audio-x-mpeg"?
[02:17] <TheSheep> chimai: 'x' is for 'extended', not originally in the standard
[02:18] <chimai> :/
[02:19] <TheSheep> chimai: there is an explanation at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dfilemetadata_2dspec
[02:20] <TheSheep> chimai: I haven't read it
[02:20] <TheSheep> chimai: sorry, wrong rl
[02:20] <TheSheep> url
[02:20] <TheSheep> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dmime_2dinfo_2dspec
[02:20] <nekohayo> TheSheep: did you try out that icon naming utility? I can't figure out how to run it, and the contents of the "INSTALL" file are the same as every darn tarball out there, it doesn't help
[02:22] <TheSheep> nekohayo: no, sorry, I only have the general pointers
[02:22] <chimai> TheSheep : it doesn't deals with the "x" thing; but thanks anyway ;)
[02:22] <TheSheep> nekohayo: there is a mailing list for the tango project though
[02:22] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I'm sure they will be able to help
[02:23] <TheSheep> no wonder there are so few complete icon themes, eh? :)
[02:23] <nekohayo> TheSheep: @_@
[02:29] <nekohayo> TheSheep: could I quote you? I think I'll need to bring attention to this (of course, "you do not official represent gnome", etc)... at least the icon theme makers must have had lots of problems @_@
[02:29] <nekohayo> officially*
[02:35] <TheSheep> nekohayo: I'm not affiliated with any team, I doubt mentioning my name will have any result. Of course you can quote me, though.
[02:35] <TheSheep> nekohayo: note also that my informations are not particulary fresh
[02:36] <nekohayo> TheSheep: it's not really about the name, more about the insights you gave me :)
[02:36] <TheSheep> nekohayo: you will get much better info on related mailing lists
[02:36] <nekohayo> hm hm
[02:43] <chimai> sleep time
[02:43] <chimai> see you all
[02:43] <chimai> and thanks a lot TheSheep ;)
[02:45] <TheSheep> good night
[02:45] <nekohayo> good night!
[10:40] <troy_s> happy new year to everyone who is in the proper zone :)