=== chimai [n=chimai@AAnnecy-152-1-80-72.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:43] hi :) === nekohayo [n=jeff@ip216-239-75-22.vif.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:45] hello folks, what are the documentation options available to me to make a fully compliant icon theme? I have checked a few websites, and they seem loosely related, sometimes outdated, and I don't even know what project or what documentation to trust (tango? freedesktop? or the gnome default icon theme?) I have a feeling that what is out there is not entirely complete and accurate :| [12:48] nekohayo: try http://tango.freedesktop.org/ [12:48] nekohayo: freedesktop.org defines the icon naming conventions [12:49] TheSheep: hmm but it in turn points to http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html [12:49] nekohayo: tango is one example of an icon set that follows them [12:49] I looked at this and thought "what, that is all?" [12:49] nekohayo: yes [12:49] I mean, themes out there are much more complex/elaborate than that [12:49] and have far more mimetypes and stuff like that [12:50] nekohayo: well, mimetype naming convention is obvious [12:50] nekohayo: application-specific icons are named after the application [12:50] nekohayo: things like gimp of openoffice themes are separate === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [12:52] TheSheep: gimp + openoffice, that I somewhat understand the issue... but I don't think mimetype naming convention is obvious... yeah it is for "generic" mimetype "categories" such as "package-x-generic", but that's all you get on that page... I mean there is not even a single paragraph of explanation about that, it's just a table with a dozen of generic mimetypes.. what if someone wants to add an icon for some mimetype such as a "jarnal" [12:52] file, or a matroska video, or something [12:53] nekohayo: if the mimetype is major/minor, then the corresponding icon is major-minor.foo, where foo is the image extension [12:54] nekohayo: for example, text/html is text-html.svg [12:55] nekohayo: I've seen the gtk code that looks for icons, it checks major-minor.foo first, then fallbacks to major-x-generic.foo [12:55] for applications, "regular" applications such as inkscape and gedit request an icon name such as "inkscape.*", but there are tons of things in the administration/preferences menu I could not figure out :| === chimai wonders why he don't get a single word of what nekohayo and TheSheep are talking about [12:57] and looking at other themes is confusing things up nicely too @_@ [12:57] nekohayo: they will either use one of the "standard" icons, or a non-standard addition, like gnome-something-something or kde-something-something -- in that case look at the gnome or crystal icon themes [12:58] nekohayo: it's still a mess, although slowly clearing up [12:59] TheSheep: looking at gnome 2.16's icon theme, it is scaring me the hell off [12:59] Is there any soft which could generate correct icon themes? [12:59] chimai: there are some scripts on the tango project website [01:00] ok, i'm gonna take a look [01:00] TheSheep: in that theme, I can see the same application icons like... 5 times or something, I can see the same mimetype icon 29 times!! how do we know what's good and what's wrong in that? [01:01] nekohayo: the duplicates are usually symlinks [01:01] 29 times? O__o [01:01] How dirty... :/ [01:01] chimai: for backward compatibility :) [01:01] chimai: it was a total mess some time ago, every app for itself [01:02] TheSheep: why backwards compatibility if that theme is shipped "inside" a gnome release? [01:02] now we at least have a standard to follow, even when some applications are still not up-to-date with it [01:02] Eurk... I'm really not an addept of the "backward compatibility", you know... it's because of that that we're still using BIOS and other old things like that [01:03] hmm [01:03] nekohayo: because changing the icon paths in all those little apps takes time [01:03] nekohayo: and introduces bugs [01:03] TheSheep: you mean the mimetypes and application icon's stuff? isn't that automatic? [01:03] I did not think application hardlinked to them (it would be a bit crazy imho) [01:04] nekohayo: I invested some of my time into researching this some time ago, and I conclude there are some gnome libraries for that, but if you want a pure-gtk, gnome-free application, you need to handle that yourself [01:04] there IS something in gnome that allows an application to ask "ok what is the icon to use for THIS mimetype" right? [01:05] mmmh [01:05] nekohayo: as I said, the gtk apps (like the file chooser, for example), just take the mime type, change the / into - and attach an extension at the end... [01:06] give me an exemple please... what should the name be for a .ogg file? and for a .wmv ? [01:07] chimai: I don't remember their mime types [01:07] :/ [01:07] and where can i find it? [01:07] application/ogg [01:08] it beats me :/ [01:08] so it would be application-ogg.png (or .svg or .xpm or whatever) [01:08] TheSheep: slightly off-topic but I noticed something... some files "change" mimetypes when I select them (ogg files for example). wtf? :) [01:09] nekohayo: .ogg and .avi are "container" files, .ogg might be either audio or video file, for example [01:09] nekohayo: I think that might be the reason [01:09] hmm [01:09] nekohayo: there are two ways of check the mime type of file [01:10] nekohayo: based on it's name only, or based on the contents [01:10] nekohayo: the system function that does it takes a switch parameter that controls it [01:10] nekohayo: the former is much faster, of course [01:10] TheSheep : but how do you know that it's "application"? Where did you find it? :/ [01:10] chimai: file -i filename [01:11] chimai: there is a large database of mime types and corresponfing file uhm.. features [01:11] chimai: test, if you will [01:11] tests [01:11] chimai: see 'man magic' for details [01:12] chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3 [01:12] the_inner_life_of_a_cell.mp3: application/octet-stream [01:12] --> application-mp3.png, right? [01:12] chimai: no, application-octet-stream.png [01:12] ok :/ [01:12] ^^ [01:12] uh wtf.. isn't octet-stream for all the binary things? maybe I'm mixing things up [01:12] chimai: apparently it failed to determine the mime type for that file and have fallen back to the default [01:13] ah [01:13] (i'm a dummy, but i will understand, don't worry :p ) [01:14] chimai@tokyo:~$ file -i ./Desktop/Donnie\ Darko\ -\ Gary\ Jules\ -\ Mad\ World.mp3 [01:14] ./Desktop/Donnie Darko - Gary Jules - Mad World.mp3: audio/mpeg [01:14] --> audio-mpeg.png ? [01:14] TheSheep: I've been thinking over that backwards compatibility thing, will there be a time when gnome says "OKAY folks, we are NOW breaking every icon theme in this release, make them anew or they will not work", for great justice? [01:14] chimai: yes [01:14] w00t \o/ [01:14] nekohayo: for sure [01:14] it sure will be great [01:15] nekohayo: just not yet [01:15] :| .... any idea when? [01:15] nekohayo: people usually say "I don;t care about your stupid standards, that other distro has pretty icons" [01:15] nekohayo: when enough apps will be updated to use the new standard [01:16] and how can gnome know that has happened? what kinds of apps are targetted by this counter? [01:17] nekohayo: right now whole lots of them [01:17] nekohayo: I think that even parts of gtk [01:17] nekohayo: I mean the stock icons and stuff [01:18] you mean core apps part of gnome, or the vast majority of gtk apps out there on the interweb? [01:18] nekohayo: the icons that are part of the gtk and the gnome libs [01:19] nekohayo: for example, look at /usr/share/icons/gnome/24x24/stock/ [01:19] I doubt such a thing exists, but is there a checklist of apps that are not yet "fixed" to see the progress coming on? [01:19] nekohayo: they are all out of the standard === nekohayo looks [01:20] nekohayo: I think they are doing serious moves towards this standard since just 2 versions of gnome [01:20] TheSheep: omfg, you mean that on a ~1432 icon theme, the *standard* gnome icon theme, 637 of those are "junk"? [01:21] nekohayo: not junk, just not covered by the freedesktop standard [01:21] nekohayo: that is, they are gnome-specific [01:21] what will happen of them? stay gnome-specific or all be reviewed to be included into FreeDesktop? [01:21] nekohayo: note how they overlap with the standard ones [01:22] nekohayo: hopefully, at least the ones that exist in the standard will be moved to the standard locations [01:22] nekohayo: one ones that don't will stay gnome-spacific [01:22] specific [01:22] any hopes for that happening for gnome 2.18 or 2.20? [01:22] nekohayo: I don't track the gnome development, so I have no idea [01:23] hah :| [01:23] I really hope they pass the vacuum cleaner in there ;) [01:23] nekohayo: I'm sure you could help -- it's mostly tedious work [01:24] TheSheep: hmm, how exactly can I help? I'm just a file renamer, not a programmer [01:25] if I could make it happen sooner I would be glad to [01:25] nekohayo: try contacting the gnome team maybe, I'm sure there are some pointers on their site [01:25] (hopefully the gnome website will have a shot of vacuum cleaner too ;)) [01:26] I think they were planning on reorganizing it [01:26] nekohayo: it's one of the best made website I've seen [01:26] http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfmod/project/?gib [01:26] nekohayo: I mean from the technical pov, the organisation is weird [01:26] seems to be dead :'( [01:27] chimai: I meant this http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library#Download [01:27] chimai: just looked at their development mailing list, it has cellphone and video spam @_@ [01:28] Oo [01:28] that's why I *hate* mailing list [01:29] boards are just so much better [01:32] if I have something like that : [01:32] chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar [01:32] Desktop.tar: application/x-tar, POSIX [01:33] is the name "application-x-tar", or do i need to use the "POSIX"? [01:33] TheSheep: um, I grabbed that icon-naming tool, tried install.sh and I get "no input file specified." [01:33] chimai: uh, I thought POSIX was some kind of standard of unix [01:33] dunno [01:33] :/ [01:34] "Portable Operating System Interface for uniX" [01:34] it's "application-x-tar" [01:34] that POSIX is just an additional comment on the file format [01:34] not really a mime type [01:35] ok [01:35] and do you know can i do to make a difference between .bz2 and .tar.bz2 files? [01:36] since i obtain this [01:36] chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file -i Desktop.tar.bz2 [01:36] Desktop.tar.bz2: application/x-bzip2 [01:36] I don't quite get what I need to do with that icon naming util @_@ [01:36] be right back, f00d [01:36] bon appetit [01:47] if I got this [01:47] chimai@tokyo:~/Desktop$ file \[Requiem\] \ Simoun\ 16\ \[080EAD1C\] .avi.torrent [01:47] [Requiem] Simoun 16 [080EAD1C] .avi.torrent: BitTorrent file [01:47] it means that there isn't any existing name yet? [01:49] TheSheep ? [01:50] chimai: file -i [01:50] chimai: to show the mime type [01:50] erf, i forgot it -________- === chimai slaps himself [01:50] chimai: tar.bz2 are obviously .bz2 files, *containing* a .tar file [01:51] oh, ok [01:53] so i can't make 2 different icons, one for the .bz2 files, and the other for .tar.bz2 files? :'( [01:56] chimai: I think not [01:56] ok :/ [01:57] chimai: btw, take a look at /usr/share/mime [01:57] got it [01:59] OMG, you roxxx O__O [01:59] chimai: there is also a freedesktop.org standard for those names... === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:15] TheSheep : do you know what can be the difference between "audio-mpeg" and "audio-x-mpeg"? === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:17] chimai: 'x' is for 'extended', not originally in the standard [02:18] :/ [02:19] chimai: there is an explanation at http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dfilemetadata_2dspec [02:20] chimai: I haven't read it [02:20] chimai: sorry, wrong rl [02:20] url [02:20] http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards_2fshared_2dmime_2dinfo_2dspec [02:20] TheSheep: did you try out that icon naming utility? I can't figure out how to run it, and the contents of the "INSTALL" file are the same as every darn tarball out there, it doesn't help [02:22] nekohayo: no, sorry, I only have the general pointers [02:22] TheSheep : it doesn't deals with the "x" thing; but thanks anyway ;) [02:22] nekohayo: there is a mailing list for the tango project though [02:22] nekohayo: I'm sure they will be able to help [02:23] no wonder there are so few complete icon themes, eh? :) [02:23] TheSheep: @_@ === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [02:29] TheSheep: could I quote you? I think I'll need to bring attention to this (of course, "you do not official represent gnome", etc)... at least the icon theme makers must have had lots of problems @_@ [02:29] officially* [02:35] nekohayo: I'm not affiliated with any team, I doubt mentioning my name will have any result. Of course you can quote me, though. [02:35] nekohayo: note also that my informations are not particulary fresh [02:36] TheSheep: it's not really about the name, more about the insights you gave me :) [02:36] nekohayo: you will get much better info on related mailing lists [02:36] hm hm [02:43] sleep time [02:43] see you all [02:43] and thanks a lot TheSheep ;) [02:45] good night [02:45] good night! === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-65-67-114-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nekohayo [n=jeff@ip216-239-75-22.vif.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Ex-Chat"] === UbuntuSt1ts [n=StatsBot@bl4-221-96.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === vdepizzol [n=vinicius@200.242.12.134] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === vdepizzol [n=vinicius@200.242.12.134] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Ex-Chat"] === erp3 [n=rot@c83-254-148-234.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === erp3 [n=rot@c83-254-148-234.bredband.comhem.se] has left #ubuntu-artwork [] === BHSPitLappy [n=steve-o@adsl-67-64-106-69.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === chimai [n=chimai@AAnnecy-152-1-37-48.w83-205.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PWill [n=paul@cpe-24-208-190-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:40] happy new year to everyone who is in the proper zone :) === Weebit [n=unknown@h155.47.96.216.ip.alltel.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === PseudoPlacebo [n=Placebo@user-0ceveb4.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork