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| klaidas_ | @schedule Vilnius | 12:50 |
|---|---|---|
| Ubugtu | Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 02 Jan 22:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 22:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 00:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 17:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 18:00: Forum Council | 12:50 |
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| freeflying|away | @schedule shanghai | 12:55 |
| Ubugtu | Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 03 Jan 04:00: Technical Board | 04 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 06:00: Xubuntu | 05 Jan 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 23:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 00:00: Forum Council | 12:55 |
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| freeflying|away | @schedule shanghai | 12:58 |
| Ubugtu | Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 03 Jan 04:00: Technical Board | 04 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 06:00: Xubuntu | 05 Jan 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 23:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 00:00: Forum Council | 12:58 |
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| siretart | @schedule Europe/Berlin | 06:17 |
| Ubugtu | Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 02 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 16:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 17:00: Forum Council | 06:17 |
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | ||
| siretart | TB Meeting anyone? | 09:00 |
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| Keybuk | Never Fear, I Is Here | 09:00 |
| siretart | hey Keybuk :) | 09:00 |
| Keybuk | do we have mdz, mjg59 or sabdfl? | 09:00 |
| ogra | doesnt look like | 09:01 |
| siretart | mjg59 seems to be on #ubuntu-devel, no idea about mdz and sabdfl | 09:01 |
| siretart | Keybuk: did my inquiry arrive on techical-board@l.u.c? I didn't get any response yet | 09:02 |
| Keybuk | it did, yes | 09:02 |
| siretart | okay | 09:02 |
| Keybuk | the lack of response is almost certainly related to the holiday season | 09:02 |
| siretart | I thought so, no problem | 09:02 |
| siretart | I wasn't sure about correct arrival either | 09:02 |
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| mjg59 | Tch. I was sure I had this on autojoin. | 09:03 |
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| Keybuk | ok | 09:05 |
| Keybuk | let's get started | 09:05 |
| Keybuk | mdz is on holiday, and has no internet access | 09:05 |
| Keybuk | so it's just the two of us today | 09:05 |
| mjg59 | Right | 09:05 |
| Keybuk | first, some administrivia | 09:05 |
| mjg59 | Anyone for core-dev? | 09:05 |
| mjg59 | Ah, ok | 09:05 |
| Keybuk | people will note that it's been two years since we started using LP to track developers | 09:06 |
| Keybuk | so we're starting to get people's team membership expire | 09:06 |
| Keybuk | if you're an active developer, you'll be renewed automatically | 09:06 |
| Keybuk | if you haven't been active for a while, you may need to reapply via TB meeting again | 09:06 |
| siretart | how is the 'activeness' measured? by a human or by soyuz looking at the last upload? | 09:07 |
| Keybuk | human | 09:07 |
| siretart | k | 09:07 |
| Keybuk | one of the TB members will react to the "seb128 has expired!" e-mail, and renew the membership :) | 09:08 |
| ogra | do trhe users get them too ? | 09:08 |
| Keybuk | yes | 09:08 |
| ogra | to have the ability to raise their hands ? | 09:08 |
| ogra | ah, cool | 09:08 |
| ogra | i had some for edubuntu recently | 09:09 |
| Keybuk | anyway, onwards | 09:09 |
| Keybuk | core-dev | 09:09 |
| Keybuk | I have nobody in my list | 09:09 |
| Keybuk | is there anybody here who's applied for core-dev membership and thinks they should be? | 09:09 |
| Keybuk | clearly not | 09:10 |
| Keybuk | good | 09:10 |
| Keybuk | ubuntu-dev | 09:11 |
| Keybuk | again, I have nobody in my l.ist | 09:11 |
| Amaranth | https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/+members shows 4 people | 09:11 |
| Keybuk | is there anybody here who's applied for ubuntu-dev membership and thinks they should be? | 09:11 |
| ogra | why is kylem on there ? | 09:11 |
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| Keybuk | Amaranth: we only consider people who applied since the last TB meeting | 09:11 |
| Amaranth | ah, i see | 09:11 |
| ogra | he should be uploading already, shouldnt he ? | 09:11 |
| === kylem eyebrows. | ||
| Keybuk | those that applied before are people who were turned down at a previous meeting with a "later" | 09:12 |
| Keybuk | ogra: playing "join all teams", I expect | 09:12 |
| ogra | heh | 09:12 |
| Keybuk | ok | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | nobody for ubuntu-dev today then | 09:13 |
| kylem | ogra, i didn't read far enough that core-dev implied -dev. | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | dholbach isn't around, so I assume we will not be discussing Council Greyskull today | 09:13 |
| ogra | well, no quorum anyway | 09:13 |
| Keybuk | siretart: you have an agenda item, the floor is yours | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | ogra: we have Q | 09:14 |
| ogra | two is enough ? | 09:14 |
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| ogra | ah, right, its TB :) not CC | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | ogra: yes, TB Q has always been two | 09:14 |
| siretart | well, status update: I have contacted the techincal board again, this time via email about the ffmpeg issue | 09:14 |
| Keybuk | we assume a three man team, and require a simple majority | 09:14 |
| siretart | I filed a MIR about ffmpeg, requested it to be reapproved for main | 09:15 |
| Keybuk | yes | 09:15 |
| Keybuk | I didn't get the context of the e-mail | 09:15 |
| siretart | I'm still not sure what codecs are exactly problematic | 09:15 |
| siretart | until that issue is resolved, I'm proposing an interim solution: let's upload xine-lib with its internal partial copy of ffmpeg with no mpeg2 encoding capabilities | 09:16 |
| siretart | to main that is | 09:16 |
| Keybuk | what uses xine-lib? | 09:16 |
| mjg59 | Ok. So I've a couple of questions about this, to begin with. | 09:16 |
| siretart | since we already have packages like libmad, I'd like to know what issues are to resolve | 09:16 |
| siretart | Keybuk: most notable kubuntu (amarok) and xubuntu | 09:17 |
| mjg59 | 1) Is mpeg2 the only actively-enforced-patent-encumbered codec in ffmpeg? | 09:17 |
| ogra | Keybuk, totem-xine | 09:17 |
| mjg59 | We're getting very close to the point where we should drop totem-xine, but that's not strictly important | 09:18 |
| siretart | mjg59: 1) I refer to debian/patents.txt quoted on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionFFmpeg. Sam (and me neither) don't know about any further | 09:18 |
| Keybuk | ogra: don't we support totem-gstreamer instead? and the theory of ffmpeg-in-main was that some of the ugly codecs could be in main too? | 09:18 |
| siretart | Keybuk: gxine as well | 09:18 |
| ogra | Keybuk, right, totem-xine isnt in main either, sorry | 09:18 |
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| siretart | Keybuk: xine uses ffmpeg not only for codecs. some plugins use the 'libpostproc' library, which has nothing to do about decoding. I expect some other packages as well | 09:19 |
| mjg59 | siretart: I'm not sold on the "libmad is in main, so ffmpeg should be" | 09:19 |
| mjg59 | It's equally plausible that libmad being in main is an error | 09:19 |
| mjg59 | We quite clearly don't ship a useful mp3 player in main, and that's defined as policy | 09:20 |
| siretart | mjg59: demotion of libmad would cause quite some trouble, looking at the reverse build-deps | 09:20 |
| Keybuk | http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/feisty/rdepends/libmad/libmad0 | 09:20 |
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| siretart | mjg59: anyway, if the decision is to demote libmad, then I'd request to demode xine-lib as well. this would however deeply annouy kubuntu and xubuntu users | 09:21 |
| Keybuk | I'm not sure why it's still a build-depend | 09:21 |
| Mithrandir | mjg59: *cough*; xmms *cough* | 09:21 |
| zul | Mithrandir: er...its still kind of brroken | 09:21 |
| mjg59 | Mithrandir: Seriously? That can't be deliberate. | 09:21 |
| Mithrandir | mjg59: done so since warty. | 09:22 |
| mjg59 | Sigh. | 09:22 |
| mjg59 | Ok. | 09:22 |
| Keybuk | note that main != CD | 09:22 |
| mjg59 | Let's just ignore the current state of reality. It clearly isn't useful. | 09:22 |
| Mithrandir | it might very well be an error, but we quite clearly do, just not in a default install. | 09:22 |
| Keybuk | we certainly don't ship any MP3 players on the CD | 09:22 |
| Keybuk | that's definitely legally naughty | 09:22 |
| mjg59 | Right. So. | 09:23 |
| Keybuk | on the FTP site is legally wishy-washy because users initiate the download | 09:23 |
| siretart | as mentioned, I have already prepared new xine 1.1.3 packages, with the ffmpeg plugin split out to libxine1-ffmpeg. Xine loads its plugins at runtime using dlopen, which makes this convinient | 09:23 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Do we have legal advice on that? | 09:23 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: that's my understanding, otherwise we wouldn't ship them in universe | 09:23 |
| siretart | so even if we promote ffmpeg and xine-lib uses that, we don't need to put ffmpeg on the CD | 09:23 |
| Keybuk | my understanding is that main vs. universe is legally no different, but CD vs. FTP is | 09:23 |
| siretart | this was an argument in my email, right | 09:24 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Ok. You're in a better position to check that than I am - is it possible to verify that, just to make sure that we're not doing it unwittingly? | 09:24 |
| Keybuk | main vs. universe is simply a matter of which team (core-dev vs. dev) supports the package | 09:24 |
| mjg59 | Right, clearly there's no legal distinction between main, universe and multiverse | 09:24 |
| Riddell | people may assume that since main is supported it can be freely used without worrying about getting a patent licence | 09:25 |
| Riddell | (or they may not) | 09:25 |
| mjg59 | So based on current practice, providing a xine-lib including ffmpeg would be fine for main, just not for ship | 09:25 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: previous legal issues have been somewhat clouded by people shouting "WE'RE GOING TO JAIL!" over the top of sensible discourse ;) | 09:25 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: assuming that xine-lib, xmms, etc. aren't in main by mistake :p | 09:25 |
| Keybuk | none of them are seeded, so I'd be willing to believe an FTP master was especially asleep one day | 09:26 |
| Riddell | we need xine-lib | 09:26 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Well, that pretty much definitely would be "aren't on the FTP server by mistake" | 09:26 |
| Riddell | and xmms is orders of sabdfl I believe | 09:26 |
| Keybuk | but yes, given that xmms and libmad are in main, I don't see the reason that ffmpeg isn't | 09:26 |
| mjg59 | I'm going to attempt to summarise this, and propose the next step. | 09:26 |
| Keybuk | siretart has filed an MIR, that's a request for the archive admins to promote it | 09:27 |
| siretart | xmms and ffmpeg are pretty unrelated. xmms uses libmad, which bring in the same legal concers as ffmpeg though | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | actually | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | sorry | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | that's a request for the security team to review it | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | so the next step is for pitti or keescook to review the source to determine whether we can provide security support for ffmpeg | 09:27 |
| mjg59 | (*) Current policy appears to be that patent-encumbered code may be distributed in main, but not in ship. | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | if they approve it, then it's a request for the archive admins to promote it once it has been seeded | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | anyone in core-dev can modify the seeds | 09:27 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: that is my understanding, yes | 09:28 |
| mjg59 | (*) Based on this, it would be reasonable for a version of xine-lib containing ffmpeg code to be in main. However, any package that becomes part of ship must *not* contain this code. | 09:28 |
| siretart | I don't think anyone not in the desktop team dares to touch the seeds ;) | 09:28 |
| Keybuk | siretart: hmm, most of core-dev have touched them ? | 09:28 |
| siretart | aha? - interesting :) | 09:29 |
| mjg59 | (*) Therefore, assuming the accuracy of the first observation, the TB has no reason to deny the inclusion of ffmpeg code in main *providing* that the technical implementation allows the ffmpeg code to be split from the core xine-lib binary package | 09:29 |
| Keybuk | it may be worth posting that as a summary, and requesting the Community Council's input | 09:30 |
| siretart | mjg59: I assume you mean 'binary code' and not 'source code' here | 09:30 |
| mjg59 | (This is predicated upon the accuracy of the first observation. The TB should also internally determine that adequate legal advice has been obtained by Canonical) | 09:30 |
| mjg59 | siretart: Either | 09:30 |
| Keybuk | I would also add: | 09:31 |
| Mithrandir | having stuff in main we can't ship on the CDs is a bit bad since people can easily end up including it by mistake by promoting something else. | 09:31 |
| mjg59 | Mithrandir: This situation already exists. We should ensure that it is hard. | 09:32 |
| mjg59 | If you feel it's practical, I'd be happy for us to suggest that it be a requirement that the archive allow packages to be tagged as "not ship", or something similar | 09:33 |
| Keybuk | (*) This constitutes a recommendation of the TB, however this recommendation is not binding and the Archive Administrators are permitted to deny this. | 09:33 |
| siretart | like putting the binary package 'ffmpeg' (ffmpeg command line utilities) and libxine1-ffmpeg | 09:33 |
| siretart | to universe? | 09:33 |
| mjg59 | Having libxine1-ffmpeg in main should be fine | 09:33 |
| Keybuk | why would having ffmpeg in main be not fine? | 09:34 |
| mjg59 | It's just important that it never somehow end up in ship | 09:34 |
| Keybuk | they're useful utilities | 09:34 |
| siretart | indeed, they are | 09:34 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Do you want to mail this to people, or shall I? | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | mjg59: can you | 09:35 |
| mjg59 | Ok | 09:35 |
| mjg59 | Anyone have anything else to add? | 09:35 |
| siretart | yes | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | siretart: your next step, anyway, is to talk to pitti and keescook and have the MIR approved | 09:35 |
| siretart | I'd like an answer to my interim proposal | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | regardless of any patent issues, you need their approval | 09:35 |
| Keybuk | I don't see how your interim proposal helps anything? | 09:35 |
| siretart | read: upload xine-lib and make it use the internal (decoding only) copy | 09:35 |
| siretart | Keybuk: it allows having xine-lib 1.1.3 sooner in the archive | 09:36 |
| Keybuk | is there a critical or urgent bug this fixes? | 09:36 |
| siretart | allowing Riddell to upload a newer amarok | 09:36 |
| mjg59 | siretart: Given what we've concluded, I don't see any reason for that to be something we need to cover here | 09:36 |
| siretart | and buying us additional testing | 09:36 |
| mjg59 | Do whatever you think is best | 09:36 |
| mjg59 | With the previous proviso of ensuring that ffmpeg code never appears in ship | 09:36 |
| Keybuk | amarok is shipped | 09:36 |
| siretart | I think uploading with ffmpeg is best for ubuntu, so we finally get goodies like WMV9 on amd64 :) | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | it's part of ubuntu-desktop | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | ^ | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | k | 09:37 |
| Keybuk | so that's forbid, under our current reading | 09:37 |
| mjg59 | siretart: Would the ffmpeg code be in a separate binary package? | 09:37 |
| siretart | Keybuk: that's no problem. the ffmpeg code in libxine1-ffmpeg does not need to be in ship. amarok just depends on libxine1 | 09:37 |
| mjg59 | I believe you implied it would be | 09:37 |
| siretart | mjg59: yes, I already have such packages ready | 09:37 |
| mjg59 | Yes, then that's fine. Just ensure that nothing depends on libxine1-ffmpeg. | 09:37 |
| siretart | as seen in https://code.launchpad.net/people/siretart/+branch/xine-lib/xine-lib.ubuntu.1.1.3 | 09:38 |
| siretart | yepp, willdo | 09:38 |
| mjg59 | Ok. I think we're done with this. | 09:38 |
| siretart | thanks | 09:38 |
| Keybuk | you may want to check the new source with pitti/keescook | 09:38 |
| Keybuk | especially if it contains a complete copy of ffmpeg | 09:38 |
| Keybuk | just to make sure it wasn't removed for security reasons | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | ok, that's the end of the agenda on my screen | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | any other business? | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | ok, done | 09:40 |
| Keybuk | unless we hear a scream from elmo at this point | 09:40 |
| mjg59 | Right. I'll email a summary. | 09:41 |
| Keybuk | thanks | 09:41 |
| Keybuk | I'd mail it to the TB and CC | 09:41 |
| siretart | well, he (as debian ftpmaster) has approved it for debian/main | 09:42 |
| mjg59 | Keybuk: Do I want to mail archive admins? | 09:42 |
| siretart | at least, he didn't object | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | can do | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | siretart: the Debian package has had all of the encoding ripped out, no? | 09:42 |
| mjg59 | Do we have a list for them? | 09:42 |
| Keybuk | ubuntu-archive@lists.ubuntu.com | 09:43 |
| siretart | Keybuk: not all. the 'problematic' ones (to the best knowledge of the package maintainer) | 09:43 |
| Robot101 | siretart: as a slight aside, do you know how this list of "problematic" encoders was arrived at? | 09:43 |
| siretart | Robot101: see my mir. the files README.Debian and patents.txt do have a nice summary | 09:44 |
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| Keybuk | mjg59: nice summary | 10:19 |
| Keybuk | personally I'd like to just enable mp3 support in main once and for all :) | 10:19 |
| somerville32 | :] | 10:19 |
| mc44 | Keybuk: only have to wait till 2011 :) | 10:20 |
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| siretart | Keybuk: mp3 encoding or decoding support? | 10:26 |
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