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#ubuntu-meeting === freeflying|away [n=freeflyi@61.190.64.118] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-67-180-20-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Yawner [n=alex@82-44-193-109.cable.ubr07.haye.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === finalbeta [n=finalbet@d5152A68A.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Yawner [n=alex@82-44-193-109.cable.ubr07.haye.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-67-180-20-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === klaidas_ [i=Klaidas@unaffiliated/klaidas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:50] @schedule Vilnius [12:50] Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 02 Jan 22:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 22:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 00:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 17:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 18:00: Forum Council === klaidas_ is now known as Klaidas === sfllaw [i=sfllaw@debian/developer/coleSLAW] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:55] @schedule shanghai [12:55] Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 03 Jan 04:00: Technical Board | 04 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 06:00: Xubuntu | 05 Jan 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 23:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 00:00: Forum Council === freeflying|away [n=freeflyi@61.190.64.118] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [12:58] @schedule shanghai [12:58] Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 03 Jan 04:00: Technical Board | 04 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 06:00: Xubuntu | 05 Jan 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 23:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 00:00: Forum Council === effie_jayx [n=valles@190.37.218.165] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dous [n=dous@124.107.251.236] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@clj46-234.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 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[n=alex@82-44-193-109.cable.ubr07.haye.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@clj46-234.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont [i=lamont@nat/hp/x-f25018ae89063d6a] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul_ [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c1-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mc44 [n=mc44@ip-81-170-96-18.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Cturtle [n=Cturtle@a213-84-50-38.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zorglu_ [n=zorglub@219.43.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Czubek [n=Damian@bae112.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=rudi@p508DBAF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 16:00 UTC: Forum Council [09:00] TB Meeting anyone? === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:00] Never Fear, I Is Here [09:00] hey Keybuk :) [09:00] do we have mdz, mjg59 or sabdfl? [09:01] doesnt look like [09:01] mjg59 seems to be on #ubuntu-devel, no idea about mdz and sabdfl [09:02] Keybuk: did my inquiry arrive on techical-board@l.u.c? I didn't get any response yet [09:02] it did, yes [09:02] okay [09:02] the lack of response is almost certainly related to the holiday season [09:02] I thought so, no problem [09:02] I wasn't sure about correct arrival either === mjg59 [n=mjg59@cavan.codon.org.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:03] Tch. I was sure I had this on autojoin. === Amaranth [n=travis@unaffiliated/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === kylem [i=kyle@fruit.freedesktop.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:05] ok [09:05] let's get started [09:05] mdz is on holiday, and has no internet access [09:05] so it's just the two of us today [09:05] Right [09:05] first, some administrivia [09:05] Anyone for core-dev? [09:05] Ah, ok [09:06] people will note that it's been two years since we started using LP to track developers [09:06] so we're starting to get people's team membership expire [09:06] if you're an active developer, you'll be renewed automatically [09:06] if you haven't been active for a while, you may need to reapply via TB meeting again [09:07] how is the 'activeness' measured? by a human or by soyuz looking at the last upload? [09:07] human [09:07] k [09:08] one of the TB members will react to the "seb128 has expired!" e-mail, and renew the membership :) [09:08] do trhe users get them too ? [09:08] yes [09:08] to have the ability to raise their hands ? [09:08] ah, cool [09:09] i had some for edubuntu recently [09:09] anyway, onwards [09:09] core-dev [09:09] I have nobody in my list [09:09] is there anybody here who's applied for core-dev membership and thinks they should be? [09:10] clearly not [09:10] good [09:11] ubuntu-dev [09:11] again, I have nobody in my l.ist [09:11] https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/+members shows 4 people [09:11] is there anybody here who's applied for ubuntu-dev membership and thinks they should be? [09:11] why is kylem on there ? === somerville32 [n=somervil@ubuntu/member/somerville32] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:11] Amaranth: we only consider people who applied since the last TB meeting [09:11] ah, i see [09:11] he should be uploading already, shouldnt he ? === kylem eyebrows. [09:12] those that applied before are people who were turned down at a previous meeting with a "later" [09:12] ogra: playing "join all teams", I expect [09:12] heh [09:13] ok [09:13] nobody for ubuntu-dev today then [09:13] ogra, i didn't read far enough that core-dev implied -dev. [09:13] dholbach isn't around, so I assume we will not be discussing Council Greyskull today [09:13] well, no quorum anyway [09:14] siretart: you have an agenda item, the floor is yours [09:14] ogra: we have Q [09:14] two is enough ? === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:14] ah, right, its TB :) not CC [09:14] ogra: yes, TB Q has always been two [09:14] well, status update: I have contacted the techincal board again, this time via email about the ffmpeg issue [09:14] we assume a three man team, and require a simple majority [09:15] I filed a MIR about ffmpeg, requested it to be reapproved for main [09:15] yes [09:15] I didn't get the context of the e-mail [09:15] I'm still not sure what codecs are exactly problematic [09:16] until that issue is resolved, I'm proposing an interim solution: let's upload xine-lib with its internal partial copy of ffmpeg with no mpeg2 encoding capabilities [09:16] to main that is [09:16] what uses xine-lib? [09:16] Ok. So I've a couple of questions about this, to begin with. [09:16] since we already have packages like libmad, I'd like to know what issues are to resolve [09:17] Keybuk: most notable kubuntu (amarok) and xubuntu [09:17] 1) Is mpeg2 the only actively-enforced-patent-encumbered codec in ffmpeg? [09:17] Keybuk, totem-xine [09:18] We're getting very close to the point where we should drop totem-xine, but that's not strictly important [09:18] mjg59: 1) I refer to debian/patents.txt quoted on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionFFmpeg. Sam (and me neither) don't know about any further [09:18] ogra: don't we support totem-gstreamer instead? and the theory of ffmpeg-in-main was that some of the ugly codecs could be in main too? [09:18] Keybuk: gxine as well [09:18] Keybuk, right, totem-xine isnt in main either, sorry === Robot101 [n=robot101@light.bluelinux.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:19] Keybuk: xine uses ffmpeg not only for codecs. some plugins use the 'libpostproc' library, which has nothing to do about decoding. I expect some other packages as well [09:19] siretart: I'm not sold on the "libmad is in main, so ffmpeg should be" [09:19] It's equally plausible that libmad being in main is an error [09:20] We quite clearly don't ship a useful mp3 player in main, and that's defined as policy [09:20] mjg59: demotion of libmad would cause quite some trouble, looking at the reverse build-deps [09:20] http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/feisty/rdepends/libmad/libmad0 === sfllaw [i=sfllaw@debian/developer/coleSLAW] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:21] mjg59: anyway, if the decision is to demote libmad, then I'd request to demode xine-lib as well. this would however deeply annouy kubuntu and xubuntu users [09:21] I'm not sure why it's still a build-depend [09:21] mjg59: *cough*; xmms *cough* [09:21] Mithrandir: er...its still kind of brroken [09:21] Mithrandir: Seriously? That can't be deliberate. [09:22] mjg59: done so since warty. [09:22] Sigh. [09:22] Ok. [09:22] note that main != CD [09:22] Let's just ignore the current state of reality. It clearly isn't useful. [09:22] it might very well be an error, but we quite clearly do, just not in a default install. [09:22] we certainly don't ship any MP3 players on the CD [09:22] that's definitely legally naughty [09:23] Right. So. [09:23] on the FTP site is legally wishy-washy because users initiate the download [09:23] as mentioned, I have already prepared new xine 1.1.3 packages, with the ffmpeg plugin split out to libxine1-ffmpeg. Xine loads its plugins at runtime using dlopen, which makes this convinient [09:23] Keybuk: Do we have legal advice on that? [09:23] mjg59: that's my understanding, otherwise we wouldn't ship them in universe [09:23] so even if we promote ffmpeg and xine-lib uses that, we don't need to put ffmpeg on the CD [09:23] my understanding is that main vs. universe is legally no different, but CD vs. FTP is [09:24] this was an argument in my email, right [09:24] Keybuk: Ok. You're in a better position to check that than I am - is it possible to verify that, just to make sure that we're not doing it unwittingly? [09:24] main vs. universe is simply a matter of which team (core-dev vs. dev) supports the package [09:24] Right, clearly there's no legal distinction between main, universe and multiverse [09:25] people may assume that since main is supported it can be freely used without worrying about getting a patent licence [09:25] (or they may not) [09:25] So based on current practice, providing a xine-lib including ffmpeg would be fine for main, just not for ship [09:25] mjg59: previous legal issues have been somewhat clouded by people shouting "WE'RE GOING TO JAIL!" over the top of sensible discourse ;) [09:25] mjg59: assuming that xine-lib, xmms, etc. aren't in main by mistake :p [09:26] none of them are seeded, so I'd be willing to believe an FTP master was especially asleep one day [09:26] we need xine-lib [09:26] Keybuk: Well, that pretty much definitely would be "aren't on the FTP server by mistake" [09:26] and xmms is orders of sabdfl I believe [09:26] but yes, given that xmms and libmad are in main, I don't see the reason that ffmpeg isn't [09:26] I'm going to attempt to summarise this, and propose the next step. [09:27] siretart has filed an MIR, that's a request for the archive admins to promote it [09:27] xmms and ffmpeg are pretty unrelated. xmms uses libmad, which bring in the same legal concers as ffmpeg though [09:27] actually [09:27] sorry [09:27] that's a request for the security team to review it [09:27] so the next step is for pitti or keescook to review the source to determine whether we can provide security support for ffmpeg [09:27] (*) Current policy appears to be that patent-encumbered code may be distributed in main, but not in ship. [09:27] if they approve it, then it's a request for the archive admins to promote it once it has been seeded [09:27] anyone in core-dev can modify the seeds [09:28] mjg59: that is my understanding, yes [09:28] (*) Based on this, it would be reasonable for a version of xine-lib containing ffmpeg code to be in main. However, any package that becomes part of ship must *not* contain this code. [09:28] I don't think anyone not in the desktop team dares to touch the seeds ;) [09:28] siretart: hmm, most of core-dev have touched them ? [09:29] aha? - interesting :) [09:29] (*) Therefore, assuming the accuracy of the first observation, the TB has no reason to deny the inclusion of ffmpeg code in main *providing* that the technical implementation allows the ffmpeg code to be split from the core xine-lib binary package [09:30] it may be worth posting that as a summary, and requesting the Community Council's input [09:30] mjg59: I assume you mean 'binary code' and not 'source code' here [09:30] (This is predicated upon the accuracy of the first observation. The TB should also internally determine that adequate legal advice has been obtained by Canonical) [09:30] siretart: Either [09:31] I would also add: [09:31] having stuff in main we can't ship on the CDs is a bit bad since people can easily end up including it by mistake by promoting something else. [09:32] Mithrandir: This situation already exists. We should ensure that it is hard. [09:33] If you feel it's practical, I'd be happy for us to suggest that it be a requirement that the archive allow packages to be tagged as "not ship", or something similar [09:33] (*) This constitutes a recommendation of the TB, however this recommendation is not binding and the Archive Administrators are permitted to deny this. [09:33] like putting the binary package 'ffmpeg' (ffmpeg command line utilities) and libxine1-ffmpeg [09:33] to universe? [09:33] Having libxine1-ffmpeg in main should be fine [09:34] why would having ffmpeg in main be not fine? [09:34] It's just important that it never somehow end up in ship [09:34] they're useful utilities [09:34] indeed, they are [09:35] Keybuk: Do you want to mail this to people, or shall I? [09:35] mjg59: can you [09:35] Ok [09:35] Anyone have anything else to add? [09:35] yes [09:35] siretart: your next step, anyway, is to talk to pitti and keescook and have the MIR approved [09:35] I'd like an answer to my interim proposal [09:35] regardless of any patent issues, you need their approval [09:35] I don't see how your interim proposal helps anything? [09:35] read: upload xine-lib and make it use the internal (decoding only) copy [09:36] Keybuk: it allows having xine-lib 1.1.3 sooner in the archive [09:36] is there a critical or urgent bug this fixes? [09:36] allowing Riddell to upload a newer amarok [09:36] siretart: Given what we've concluded, I don't see any reason for that to be something we need to cover here [09:36] and buying us additional testing [09:36] Do whatever you think is best [09:36] With the previous proviso of ensuring that ffmpeg code never appears in ship [09:36] amarok is shipped [09:37] I think uploading with ffmpeg is best for ubuntu, so we finally get goodies like WMV9 on amd64 :) [09:37] it's part of ubuntu-desktop [09:37] ^ [09:37] k [09:37] so that's forbid, under our current reading [09:37] siretart: Would the ffmpeg code be in a separate binary package? [09:37] Keybuk: that's no problem. the ffmpeg code in libxine1-ffmpeg does not need to be in ship. amarok just depends on libxine1 [09:37] I believe you implied it would be [09:37] mjg59: yes, I already have such packages ready [09:37] Yes, then that's fine. Just ensure that nothing depends on libxine1-ffmpeg. [09:38] as seen in https://code.launchpad.net/people/siretart/+branch/xine-lib/xine-lib.ubuntu.1.1.3 [09:38] yepp, willdo [09:38] Ok. I think we're done with this. [09:38] thanks [09:38] you may want to check the new source with pitti/keescook [09:38] especially if it contains a complete copy of ffmpeg [09:39] just to make sure it wasn't removed for security reasons [09:39] ok, that's the end of the agenda on my screen [09:39] any other business? [09:40] ok, done [09:40] unless we hear a scream from elmo at this point [09:41] Right. I'll email a summary. [09:41] thanks [09:41] I'd mail it to the TB and CC [09:42] well, he (as debian ftpmaster) has approved it for debian/main [09:42] Keybuk: Do I want to mail archive admins? [09:42] at least, he didn't object [09:42] can do [09:42] siretart: the Debian package has had all of the encoding ripped out, no? [09:42] Do we have a list for them? [09:43] ubuntu-archive@lists.ubuntu.com [09:43] Keybuk: not all. the 'problematic' ones (to the best knowledge of the package maintainer) [09:43] siretart: as a slight aside, do you know how this list of "problematic" encoders was arrived at? [09:44] Robot101: see my mir. the files README.Debian and patents.txt do have a nice summary === Caribdis [n=Caribdis@8.Red-83-35-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === kylem [i=kyle@fruit.freedesktop.org] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Caribdis [n=Caribdis@8.Red-83-35-211.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@ubuntu/member/fujitsu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:19] mjg59: nice summary [10:19] personally I'd like to just enable mp3 support in main once and for all :) [10:19] :] [10:20] Keybuk: only have to wait till 2011 :) === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [10:26] Keybuk: mp3 encoding or decoding support? === lmanul [n=manu@dan75-4-82-239-58-38.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-67-180-20-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mruiz 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