[12:31] <zul> there should be the mel brooks collector editioin
[12:34] <nixternal> zul: i would buy it in a heart beat
[12:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> if a package (ie firefox) has only a orig.tar.gz and a diff.gz does that mean i can make any changes i need to the package, and they will get put in the diff? or do  i have to try and keep my changes in a certain area (like ./debian/)?
[12:56] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: it depends
[12:56] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: if the package is using a patch-based tool, then you should use that.
[12:57] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: if its not, then you should make the changes whereever they need to be made
[12:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> cool. thats roughly what i thought. thanks lifeless 
[01:48] <invalesco> hey. will someone please include the newest ntfs-3g driver http://www.ntfs-3g.org/releases.html in fesity. It fixes the heavy cpu load when writing big files on ntfs drives
[01:55] <steko> hi, is there anyone from MOTUScience ?
[01:56] <steko> I cannot seem to solve this annoying bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/r-base/+bug/48168
[01:56] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48168 in r-base "unable to open X Input Method" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  
[01:56] <steko> and I feel I'm the only one experiencing this
[02:48] <bddebian> Heya gang
[02:50] <harrisony> hi
[03:32] <lasindi> Question about packaging a Python program: I'm been reading through Debian packaging tutorials and I can get past dh_make, but I don't know what to do at this point. I don't have any makefiles, and basically what I want is to put my program's source code in /usr/share/programname and have a shell script in /usr/bin cd into there and run one of the python scripts. Is there an easy way to do this?
[03:35] <jikanter> lasindi: good question, I am not sure the answer, but my guess is it would be in the debian python policy
[03:38] <lasindi> jikanter: Yes, I've been looking through that, but I still can't find anything in there that amounts to a tutorial on what I'm trying to. The information might be in there, but I think maybe I need to understand Debian packaging in general (which I don't).
[03:38] <jikanter> me neither, I am working on it though....Did you read the ubuntu packaging manual yet? I found that one easier to get through
[03:39] <jikanter> than the debian one I mean
[03:40] <lasindi> Well, I followed this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources to some Debian packaging tutorials (linked at the bottom)
[03:41] <lasindi> but they all seem to revolve around Makefiles (and thus presumable C/C++ programs)
[03:41] <lasindi> *presumably
[03:41] <jdong> what's a good word for "accelerating over time"
[03:41] <lasindi> speeding up?
[03:41] <jdong> i.e. the integral of acceleration wrt time
[03:42] <lasindi> Isn't the integral of acceleration velocity?
[03:42] <jdong> no
[03:42] <jdong> that's the derivative
[03:42] <lasindi> jikanter: I don't want anything fancy, which seems to be what the policy discusses; all I want to do is hardcode the location of the files, which I would think is an easy task, but doesn't appear to be easy using Debian's tools.
[03:43] <Jozo-> lasindi: Why you want install shell wrapper to python script?
[03:43] <jdong> like think of a fast-forward button
[03:43] <jdong> one media player has it implemented as accelerating acceleration
[03:43] <jdong> so it's a v=t^2 relationship
[03:43] <chillywilly> anyone ever look at conary (the package manager for rpath linux - http://www.rpath.com) ?
[03:44] <jdong> trying to describe that in documentation is not exactly simple :D
[03:44] <lasindi> Jozo-: Basically because I want to keep all the modules in the same directory
[03:44] <jikanter> lasindi: I think the point of the policy was not to be complex, but to create some sort of standard for everyone to follow
[03:45] <jikanter> But I could be wrong, so anyone chime in if they know better
[03:45] <lasindi> jikanter: yes, but unfortunately it's not working well (at least for me) as a tutorial
[03:47] <lasindi> jdong: Which application is this?
[03:50] <lasindi> Jozo-: do you have any ideas?
[03:51] <crimsun> lasindi: follow the Debian Python policy.
[03:51] <imbrandon_> heya crimsun
[03:52] <bddebian> crimsun: !
[03:52] <bddebian> chillywilly: Stop pushing your crack here ;-P
[03:52] <imbrandon_> heya bddebian
[03:52] <bddebian> Hi imbrandon
[03:52] <lasindi> crimsun: I would love to; I just have no idea how to do it. ;-)
[03:53] <chillywilly> bddebian: sorry dude, but it's not my crack
[03:53] <bddebian> :-)
[03:53] <chillywilly> bddebian: just something cool I've been looking at...conary is a marriage between source control and package management...pretty cool stuff
[03:57] <lasindi> crimsun: I've been reading the Python policy and even after reading it, I still don't understand it. Do you know where I can find a walkthrough of how to build a Python package?
[03:58] <Jozo-> lasindi: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy
[03:58] <jaldhar> what creates/uses /var/run/console?
[04:00] <Lathiat> i think thats done when you login to a console
[04:01] <Lathiat> probably by the PAM stuff
[04:01] <jaldhar> Lathiat: yeah on RHAT its pam_console but I don't think we have that
[04:02] <Lathiat> pam_foreground
[04:02] <Lathiat> which is in common-session
[04:02] <jaldhar> aha!
[04:12] <lasindi> Jozo-: Doesn't this deal with how to convert existing packages to the new policy?
[04:14] <lasindi> The problem is, I can't figure out how to make a working package in the first place ...
[04:16] <bddebian> lasindi: If you have never made a package before, I would suggest the Packaging Guide
[04:16] <bddebian> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
[04:22] <lasindi> bddebian: Okay, I'm reading through it, and one of the things that has confused me a lot going through this is that, since I don't have a Makefile (as it's a Python program), is that I'm not sure whether or not I need something. It says pbuilder is for building binaries - do I still need it? (I'm asking since other guides I've read only mention dh_make, not pbuilder)
[04:23] <jdong> sudo chroot /chroot/jail21 agdu -yy --force-yes
[04:23] <jdong> ack
[04:23] <jdong> stupid focus
[04:24] <LaserJock> lasindi: it would be handy to have something like a Makefile
[04:24] <LaserJock> lasindi: that's why I suggested earlier to use distutils
[04:25] <LaserJock> but in any case you are building a binary package which can include actual binaries as well as other things (art, text, docs, .py files)
[04:25] <lasindi> LaserJock: yes, I looked at distutils, but it appears to put all my source files in the same directory as the standard libraries; I'm reluctant to do that because I don't want to cause naming conflicts with other modules.
[04:25] <lasindi> Right
[04:26] <LaserJock> lasindi: well, then you could make a simple makefile
[04:26] <LaserJock> or just do it all in the debian/rules
[04:28] <lasindi> LaserJock: Okay, so should I create a makefile that basically just does this:
[04:28] <lasindi> install:
[04:28] <lasindi>      mkdir -p /usr/share/programname
[04:29] <lasindi>      cp -r images src /usr/share/programname
[04:29] <lasindi>      echo "<a shell script that runs the program" > /usr/bin/programname
[04:29] <lasindi> Would that work?
[04:30] <LaserJock> something like that yeah
[04:31] <lasindi> Okay, lemme try that.
[04:39] <LaserJock> anybody here good with fonts?
[04:40] <harrisony> LaserJock, hmm give us a shot
[04:41] <LaserJock> well, people often talk about really good or really bad fonts
[04:41] <LaserJock> and I normally can't tell the difference
[04:42] <LaserJock> but as I sit in front of a computer all day I wondered if there were things that made fonts better for the eyes
[04:43] <harrisony> all i know of is that lcd screens are better for ye eyes than CRT
[04:45] <PuMpErNiCkEl> Beyond the letters being easily readable, it's mostly just personal preference.  You're not likely to strain your eyes more because your fonts are serifed, for example.
[04:46] <bddebian> Courier is all you need.. :-)
[04:48] <harrisony> isnt courier the font in terminal
[04:48] <bddebian> usually :-)
[04:48] <harrisony> ahh i was about to say not too much of the terminal font
[05:03] <superm1> crimsun, ping
[05:07] <lasindi> LaserJock: ok, I did dh_make && cd debian && debuild -us -uc, but it still only appears to copy the manpage, not any of the Python file or the bash script, to the actual file system.
[05:08] <LaserJock> lasindi: did you look at debian/rules?
[05:09] <superm1> LaserJock, perhaps you might be able help in crimsun's absence?
[05:10] <superm1> after you finish up with lasindi of course
[05:10] <LaserJock> superm1: what's up?
[05:10] <superm1> LaserJock, well the upload from a few weeks ago for ivtv-firmware needs to be reversed.  I spoke with BenC, and we have the firmware in main now
[05:11] <superm1> it still hasn't been acked for multiverse at this point, and is in the NEW queue
[05:12] <lasindi> LaserJock: yes, I put "make install" under install:. Do I need to do something different with in debian/rules?
[05:12] <LaserJock> so the ivtv-firmware package doesn't need to be in Multiverse?
[05:13] <LaserJock> lasindi: and do you know that make install actually does what you want?
[05:13] <superm1> LaserJock, right.  
[05:14] <LaserJock> superm1: I'd get ahold of an archive admin
[05:14] <LaserJock> cjwatson or Keybuk would be the likely candidates
[05:14] <superm1> LaserJock, okay.  wasn't sure if you (or any other MOTUs) had rights to reverse, so figured i'd poke here
[05:14] <Hobbsee> or mithrandir
[05:15] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: yeah, but I figured he'd be a little hesitant about it, maybe not :-0
[05:15] <lasindi> LaserJock: I tried "make install" in the actual source directory (the parent directory of debian); do I need "cd .. && make install && cd debian" instead?
[05:15] <LaserJock> lasindi: no
[05:15] <Hobbsee> ah
[05:15] <lasindi> I think it's installing the files and maybe removing them afterwards
[05:15] <LaserJock> lasindi: so how are you determining that it didn't work
[05:15] <superm1> thanks LaserJock & Hobbsee 
[05:16] <LaserJock> superm1: once uploaded MOTUs can't do anything
[05:16] <lasindi> LaserJock: I'm opening the .deb package with ArchiveManager and then opening data.tar.gz to look for usr/bin/programname
[05:17] <LaserJock> lasindi: dpkg -c <pathtodeb>.deb is easier, btw
[05:18] <LaserJock> lasindi: are you using pbuilder to make the .deb?
[05:18] <lasindi> No, I'm using debuild
[05:18] <LaserJock> superm1: as both cjwatson and Keybuk are in the UK I don't expect them up for a while
[05:19] <superm1> okay, i'll poke around tomorrow morning then
[05:19] <LaserJock> lasindi: can you pastebin your debian/rules and makefile for me?
[05:19] <lasindi> Sure
[05:21] <lasindi> LaserJock: debian/rules: http://rafb.net/p/HQtPxE49.html Makefile: http://rafb.net/p/M2kS3A74.html
[05:23] <LaserJock> lasindi: ah, found it
[05:23] <LaserJock> one of the interesting parts of Debian packaging
[05:24] <LaserJock> you don't want to actually install to /usr/share/
[05:24] <LaserJock> you want to install to <currentdir>/debian/<packagename>/usr/share/
[05:25] <lasindi> Ohhhhhhh
[05:25] <LaserJock> because the .deb is created by building and installing into a temporary directory in debian/
[05:25] <LaserJock> and then compressing and building the .deb
[05:25] <LaserJock> normally what we us is the DESTDIR variable
[05:26] <LaserJock> *use
[05:26] <LaserJock> like how you see in the debian/rules file
[05:26] <lasindi> Alright, let me try again
[05:26] <LaserJock> you want to use that $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/onasow
[05:26] <lasindi> Right
[05:26] <LaserJock> and then modify your makefile to accept DESTDIR
[05:32] <lasindi> LaserJock: forgive my ignorance about makefiles, how can I accept DESTDIR from it?
[05:35] <LaserJock> lasindi: try something like http://rafb.net/p/AVlNym32.html
[05:36] <LaserJock> hmm, actually that wouldn't be quite right for that debian/rules line
[05:36] <lasindi> LaserJock: yeah, I was wondering if that would override the definition in the makefile
[05:36] <LaserJock> I'm pretty sure it does
[05:37] <lasindi> Okay, I'll try that
[05:37] <LaserJock> it's good to use both DESTDIR and PREFIX
[05:37] <nixternal> Happy New Year LaserJock!
<
[05:38] <LaserJock> if you want to install to /usr/local/ you would set DESTDIR=/ and PREFIX=usr/local/
[05:38] <LaserJock> if you want to install to a deb you would do DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/<packagename>/ and PREFIX=usr/
[05:39] <LaserJock> hi nixternal 
[05:39] <lasindi> LaserJock: I get an error like this: cp: cannot create regular file `ESTDIR/bin/onasow': No such file or directory
[05:40] <LaserJock> DESTDIR
[05:40] <lasindi> So it doesn't look like it interprests DESTDIR
[05:42] <lasindi> That's the actual error; it looks like it only uses the first letter or something
[05:42] <LaserJock> check for typos
[05:43] <LaserJock> I don't think that's right
[05:44] <Kamping_Kaiser> can someone look at this http://pastebin.ca/302297 , does the line `# VK_HELP doesn't work on other platforms yet` look like its breaking the xml?
[05:45] <Kamping_Kaiser> hm. removing the line makes the colouring on the following lines correct again... suppose the xml must be bust
[05:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> oooh, actually the line above its missing a > at the end... sorry.
[05:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> */>
[05:46] <LaserJock> yeah, shesh ;-)
[05:46] <imbrandon_> ...
[05:48] <lasindi> LaserJock: ah, I needed to have $(DESTDIR) instead of $DESTDIR
[05:49] <LaserJock> ah, should have thought of that, sorry
[05:49] <LaserJock> imbrandon!!
[05:49] <imbrandon_> haye laserjock ;)
[05:49] <imbrandon_> gah no tab completion
[05:49] <imbrandon_> hrm
[05:49] <imbrandon_> LaserJock got everything working on my 10.4.8 hackentosh :)
[05:50] <imbrandon_> including parallels
[05:50] <imbrandon_> :)
[05:50] <imbrandon_> hrm food sounds good, brb
[05:50] <LaserJock> dude, I just got the beta of vmware for intel macs today
[05:51] <LaserJock> I'm going to test it out tomorrow with a full Ubuntu install and see how fast it is
[05:51] <imbrandon_> yea
[05:51] <imbrandon_> i have it installed
[05:51] <imbrandon_> fusion or whatever they named it
[05:52] <imbrandon_> we use the hell outa vmware at work, vmware 6 is looking nice too with multi monitor support etc
[05:53] <imbrandon_> i have a beta of that too on my vista box
[05:56] <lasindi> LaserJock: It works!! Thank you so much for your help, you've really made my day
[06:05] <bddebian> \o/ LaserJock /o\
[06:17] <imbrandon_> wb laserjock l
[06:17] <imbrandon_> hrm
[06:18] <LaserJock> thanks
[06:33] <joejaxx> hello imbrandon_  LaserJock 
[06:33] <imbrandon_> heya joejaxx
[06:33] <joejaxx> :)
[06:33] <LaserJock> hi joejaxx 
[06:34] <joejaxx> i had wanted to ask you all a question
[06:34] <imbrandon_> shoot
[06:34] <joejaxx> what comes with a project become officially supported
[06:34] <joejaxx> becoming*
[06:37] <Hobbsee> officially supported by who?
[06:38] <joejaxx> Canonical
[06:38] <joejaxx> just wondering
[06:38] <joejaxx> because everyone tosses around the term
[06:39] <joejaxx> but i did not know what that encompasses
[06:39] <imbrandon_> probably something to ask canonical ;)
[06:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> whats supposed to happen, or what does happen? ;)
[06:39] <joejaxx> well comes aong with being officially supported
[06:40] <joejaxx> well what*
[06:40] <joejaxx> Kamping_Kaiser: so i guess the second part of your question
[06:40] <joejaxx> bah i cannot splle today
[06:40] <joejaxx> :(
[06:40] <joejaxx> along*
[06:41] <joejaxx> spell*
[06:41] <LaserJock> well, I think that means that Canonical is willing to sell support for that product
[06:41] <LaserJock> so it's invested
[06:41] <joejaxx> oh
[06:41] <LaserJock> so far that's Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Edubuntu
[06:41] <joejaxx> ok
[06:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> joejaxx, canonical become offical support providers, but also provide biuld servers, usually pay sojmeone to work on it, that sort of stuff
[06:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> host the websites
[06:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> integrated into 'teh family'
[06:42] <joejaxx> oh i do all that already lol
[06:42] <LaserJock> sure, so it's "joejaxx supported"
[06:42] <LaserJock> ;-)
[06:42] <bddebian> heh
[06:42] <joejaxx> yeah i guess you could say that lol
[06:42] <Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
[06:43] <LaserJock> if it was Canonical supported then Canonical would be paying for or doing some of the things you are already
[06:43] <LaserJock> but there are various levels of support really
[06:44] <LaserJock> take Xubuntu for instance
[06:44] <LaserJock> I don't think Canonical sells support for it
[06:44] <LaserJock> and it doesn't pay any devs for it
[06:44] <LaserJock> but it's in Main and they build .isos for it
[06:44] <LaserJock> so it's kinda inbetween
[06:45] <joejaxx> oh ok
[06:46] <LaserJock> having access to the inner workings of LP is probably the biggest advantage
[06:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> the irc channels come under ubuntu rule as well
[06:47] <joejaxx> i think i have all of those accept the last
[06:47] <joejaxx> well i do have #fluxbuntu under coc
[06:48] <joejaxx> so there whould not reallybe a difference
[06:48] <LaserJock> the other big advantage is usually in getting more help
[06:48] <LaserJock> I think it's a rather large difference
[06:49] <Kamping_Kaiser> yeh
[06:49] <joejaxx> what is the larger difference?
[06:50] <LaserJock> LP and dev support
[06:50] <LaserJock> I think those are pretty killer
[06:50] <joejaxx> but i have lp already
[06:50] <LaserJock> not all of it
[06:51] <LaserJock> the important part is soyuz and the .iso building stuff
[06:51] <joejaxx> LaserJock: yeah the iso building is the only thing i do not have
[06:51] <joejaxx> but that is taken care of
[06:53] <LaserJock> the difference between "dang it, gotta build this sucker" and "tfheen: joejaxx, want me to spin your RC .isos?" is pretty significant, IMO
[06:53] <LaserJock> archive and build admins are pretty invaluable
[06:54] <LaserJock> on the other hand, it's obviously much tougher to become and official derivative
[06:54] <LaserJock> security, etc. has to be pretty tight for Canonical to want to support it
[06:54] <joejaxx> i know
[06:55] <joejaxx> i was not thinking about becoming one
[06:55] <LaserJock> you should be ;-)
[06:55] <LaserJock> although I'm not sure fluxbuntu is as much of a "fit" with the rest
[06:56] <LaserJock> its kinda too minimal
[06:56] <joejaxx> well i had just wanted to see what the difference between the operating system now
[06:56] <TheMuso> LaserJock: I think xubuntu was accepted as it filled a void
[06:56] <joejaxx> and what whould happened if it was
[06:57] <joejaxx> but i really do not see one
[06:57] <LaserJock> joejaxx: I think  mostly recognition, support, and inside access
[06:58] <joejaxx> oh ok
[06:58] <LaserJock> anyway, I gotta get to bed
[06:59] <joejaxx> alright Goodnight LaserJock 
[06:59] <LaserJock> but I'd say if it was offered, take it ;-)
[06:59] <LaserJock> if not, don't worry about it a ton
[06:59] <bddebian> Gnight gang
[06:59] <LaserJock> cya bddebian 
[07:01] <joejaxx> TheMuso: yeah you are right
[07:01] <joejaxx> about that*
[07:26] <crimsun> superm1: pong
[07:28] <superm1> crimsun, hey.  i was going to mention earlier that ivtv-firmware can be reversed from the upload status, but Laserjock already told me that i should let an archive admin know tomorrow morning instead - since motu can't do anything to reverse it
[07:28] <superm1> BenC got it into main
[07:28] <crimsun> superm1: err, it'd be good to ask them to reject it now, then
[07:28] <superm1> crimsun, is anyone around right now to ask though?
[07:29] <superm1> i figured most of them are either just waking up or not on yet at this point (given focued in the UK)
[07:29] <crimsun> right, tollef (mithrandir) should be awake in a bit
[07:30] <crimsun> adam (infinity) is on vacation still
[07:30] <superm1> ok
[07:30] <superm1> i'll watch in #ubuntu-devel for when mithrandir comes on then
[07:31] <crimsun> colin (cjwatson) and scott (keybuk) are two others, both uk-based
[08:34] <Kamping_Kaiser> i should be able to add a source line for fiesty and pull in the firefox2 source without any problems shouldnt i? (no depends, just source)
[08:34] <crimsun> a deb-src line for feisty main, yes
[08:35] <Kamping_Kaiser> yep. thanks
[08:48] <Kamping_Kaiser> i get a pile of `dpkg-source: cannot represent change to nss/shlibsign.o: binary file contents changed` warnings when dpkg-source is trying to build, does that mean makes not cleaning up properly?
[08:50] <lifeless> probably
[08:51] <Kamping_Kaiser> darn.
[08:54] <Kamping_Kaiser> can i just add rm shlibsign.o to the clean section of the rules file?
[08:57] <StevenK> You can, or you can fix the clean target of the Makefile.
[08:59] <Kamping_Kaiser> um ok. i'll try that
[09:00] <lifeless> I'd fix the upstreams clean target
[09:00] <lifeless> then mail them a patch
[09:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> thing is i just got it. i'v run a dozen builds, changed one thing and started getting errors... and i honestly cant belive that what i changed coudl cause it.
[09:01] <StevenK> nss/shlibsign.o may also be shipped in the orig tarball.
[09:01] <StevenK> (Which is silly)
[09:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> it doesnt seem to be shipped
[10:00] <siretart> lucas: congrats, boy! :)
[10:01] <lucas> you too :-)
[10:01] <siretart> :)
[10:02] <white> lucas: congratz
[10:03] <lucas> arg, all those motus that become debian developers ;)
[10:04] <white> i am not a motu :)
[10:06] <siretart> hear hear, so all sponsorship requests for debian go to white! :)
[10:07] <white> well ...
[10:07] <siretart> (but you may also to ask lucas, slomo, ajmitch, myself, StevenK and any other DD in this channel as well ;)
[10:08] <white> siretart: you forgot yourself ;)
[10:08] <tepsipakki> anyone here familiar with ProjectX (a DVB demux tool)?
[10:08] <tepsipakki> I'd like to package it
[10:08] <siretart> white: did I?
[10:09] <tepsipakki> but I have a question.. it is distributed as a cross-platform .zip, so should I include it as-is in the tarball, and use tarball.mk of cdbs or similar to unpack it in the build-process?
[10:11] <tepsipakki> it is GPL, but includes two .jar's which have Apache License v2.0, is that a problem?
[10:15] <StevenK> I didn't think Apache and GPL worked together?
[10:15] <StevenK> siretart: I had no idea were you were able to upload to Debian?
[10:17] <StevenK> Hrm. Buh bye Launchpad
[10:17] <StevenK> (Offline for maintaince)
[10:19] <tepsipakki> StevenK: so, if that's the case then upstream should change their license?
[10:24] <StevenK> tepsipakki: I'm unsure, I'd suggest you check with debian-legal, or Google for a precedent.
[10:24] <siretart> StevenK: oh? sorry then
[10:25] <StevenK> siretart: When did you become a DD?
[10:27] <tepsipakki> StevenK: yep, googled a bit and it appears to be so..
[10:27] <StevenK> tepsipakki: Appears to be fine, or not fine?
[10:28] <tepsipakki> not fine :)
[10:28] <tepsipakki> FSF claims they are not compatible
[10:28] <StevenK> Excellent, I do remember correctly.
[10:33] <tepsipakki> so that basically makes it impossible to include in Debian/Ubuntu without upstream taking necessary actions?
[11:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> -bugs sugested i ask this here :  is debootstrap only working with ubuntu a bug or a feature? it doesnt work (for me) with debian or gnewsense
[11:28] <giskard> ciao
[11:29] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: it should bootstrap anything released before it, and the current release it was downloaded from
[11:29] <lifeless> Kamping_Kaiser: from ubuntu or debian
[11:29] <Kamping_Kaiser> hrm. thats a nusense
[12:05] <tepsipakki> hm, I guess a package can't build-depend on sun-java until the GPL-version is ready, since the current version needs to ask about the license (=doesn't configure in pbuilder)
[12:50] <siretart> StevenK: elmo created my account today :)
[12:51] <StevenK> siretart: :-)
[12:51] <StevenK> siretart: That'd be why I didn't know. :-)
[12:52] <Fujitsu> A Debian account?
[12:56] <Kamping_Kaiser> can i selectively disable dpatch patches?
[12:57] <StevenK> Kamping_Kaiser: Edit debian/patches/00list ?
[12:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> StevenK, can i comment some out, or do i jsut dd the line?
[12:58] <StevenK> Personally, I'd dd the line.
[12:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> hum. righto
[12:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> ty
[01:06] <Amaranth> tepsipakki: GPL'ed Sun java is at least 6 months away
[01:36] <cypherbios> What is the police about "dummy" python packages (i.e.: python2.4-dbus (v2.4) >> python-dbus (v2.4)) ?
[01:37] <cypherbios> on Edgy this package exists, but in dapper doesn't
[01:39] <Hobbsee> because we only did the python transition from edgy --> feisty?
[01:39] <Hobbsee> or was that dapper --> edgy?
[01:39] <Hobbsee> oh yeah, was dapper --> edgy
[01:43] <cypherbios> Hobbsee: sorry, dapper --> edgy
[01:45] <cypherbios> Hobbsee: this packages (python-dbus, for exemple) shouldn't be on dapper too?
[01:45] <geser> python-dbus still provides python2.4-dbus but it can't be used in a versioned depends
[01:45] <geser> cypherbios: what's the problem exactly?
[01:45] <Hobbsee> hey geser 
[01:45] <geser> hello Hobbsee 
[01:46] <Hobbsee> geser: you've beend oing lots of stuff on u-u-s buglist?  :)
[01:46] <Hobbsee> bug 76276
[01:47] <cypherbios> geser: I made an package (is not on ubuntu repo) that have the python-dbus as depend (obviously made for edgy), but the same package couldn't install on dapper because the python-dbus are not on repo (that would point to python2.4-dbus)
[01:47] <StevenK> python-dbus || python2.4-dbus
[01:48] <StevenK> Single pipe, too
[01:48] <cypherbios> but, the question is: The dapper shouldn't have the python2.4-* covered for python-*?
[01:49] <StevenK> You could always depend on python2.4-dbus, since python-dbus in Edgy should Provide python2.4-dbus
[01:50] <cypherbios> StevenK: the edgy is not the problem, the question is about dapper
[01:50] <cypherbios> StevenK: on edgy is ok
[01:50] <geser> only in an unversioned depends
[01:51] <StevenK> cypherbios: Yes, hence my answer.
[02:27] <gjohnston> hi, I think the game Tremulous might be suitable for the Universe repository rather than Multiverse as it's in at the moment
[02:27] <gjohnston> Please see my forum post at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1958824#post1958824
[03:02] <gjohnston> I think the game Tremulous might be suitable for the Universe repository rather than Multiverse as it's in at the moment
[03:02] <gjohnston> Please see my forum post at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1958824#post1958824
[03:04] <mr_pouit> gjohnston, AFAIK, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike Licence isn't compatible with the gpl (and also with the Debian Free Software Guideline), that's why it is in multiverse
[03:06] <gjohnston> ok
[03:07] <gjohnston> is it just because of the DFSG that it's there?
[03:07] <gjohnston> because surely all free software licences are allowed in universe even if they're GPL-incompatible?
[03:09] <geser> Debian has tremulous in contrib
[03:10] <ogra> mr_pouit, that would force all artwork we ship in ubuntu to multiverse ...
[03:10] <fatalerror> probably a mistake
[03:10] <ogra> there must be something else...
[03:11] <Nafallo> wikipedia says some of the textures isn't CC
[03:11] <gjohnston> yeah i wrote that
[03:11] <gjohnston> it only seems to be in the windows version though
[03:12] <gjohnston> ive read the three different 'copyright' files in the ubuntu package and that exception isn't there
[03:12] <mr_pouit> ogra, mmh, ok :S
[03:12] <gjohnston> it just says all the media is under the CC-BY-SA licence
[03:15] <tepsipakki> Hobbsee: about #76716, you got a minute?
[03:15] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: sure
[03:16] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: but i'll warn you now, if you attach diffs like that, they make my eyes hurt :P
[03:16] <tepsipakki> I'll behave nice from now on :)
[03:16] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: :)
[03:17] <tepsipakki> I was just being lazy..
[03:17] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: so i saw :P
[03:17] <tepsipakki> anyway, the tarball checksums differ, although diff shows that they are the same
[03:17] <Hobbsee> that's...not great :P
[03:17] <StevenK> And config.{guess,sub} really oughtn't be to touched.
[03:17] <StevenK> s/be to/to be/
[03:18] <tepsipakki> of course not..
[03:18] <StevenK> config.sub is the second file touched in your diff.
[03:18] <tepsipakki> yes yes :)
[03:18] <tepsipakki> la-zy
[03:19] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: lazy's fine, as long as you dont want it uploaded :P
[03:19] <tepsipakki> heh
[03:19] <tepsipakki> I'd like it to be sorted now :)
[03:20] <Hobbsee> OK.  fix the patch then :)
[03:20] <tepsipakki> anyway, it needs some sort of divine intervention to get the new tarball in, right?
[03:21] <tepsipakki> or, rather, not even try that
[03:21] <tepsipakki> but merge using the tarball that we have now, and wait for a new upstream version?
[03:21] <Hobbsee> tepsipakki: correct
[03:23] <tepsipakki> right, I'll get on with it
[03:26] <tepsipakki> btw, the config.* stuff is from .diff.gz, likewise on many, many packages :)
[03:30] <tepsipakki> I wonder why config.* is copied in during clean
[03:31] <geser> clean is called before the build target
[03:32] <tepsipakki> also before the source is built
[03:32] <tepsipakki> so they end up in diff.gz
[03:33] <geser> yes
[03:38] <lritter> hi there
[03:39] <lritter> i'm trying to build a package, and i added libjack0.100.0-dev as dependency, but pbuilder can't find it... what's my mistake?
[03:39] <Hobbsee> lritter: likely universe isnt enabled in your pbuilder
[03:40] <lritter> Hobbsee: but i did.
[03:40] <lritter> Hobbsee: at least i believe i did.
[03:40] <Hobbsee> lritter: in pbuilderrc?
[03:40] <lritter> sudo pbuilder create --distribution edgy --othermirror "deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu edgy universe multiverse"
[03:40] <Hobbsee> hrm
[03:41] <Hobbsee> !info libjack0.100.0-dev
[03:41] <ubotu> libjack0.100.0-dev: JACK Audio Connection Kit (development files). In component universe, is optional. Version 0.101.1-1 (edgy), package size 115 kB, installed size 864 kB
[03:41] <Nafallo> lritter: sudo pbuilder login, then cat /etc/apt/sources.list
[03:42] <lritter> root@aspera:/# cat /etc/apt/sources.list            
[03:42] <lritter> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu edgy universe multiverse
[03:42] <lritter> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu edgy main
[03:42] <lritter> #deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu edgy main
[03:42] <lritter> that's it
[03:43] <Nafallo> sudo pbuilder update before you build again maybe?
[03:43] <Nafallo> just to make sure.
[03:44] <Nafallo> or add D-hooks to always do it for you :-)
[03:44] <lritter> compared to building packages for arch, this is seriously overengineered.
[03:45] <lritter> ok, i try a pbuilder update
[03:46] <lritter> ah, now it works.
[03:51] <imbrandon_> wow when did the LP url scheme change ?
[03:51] <Hobbsee> imbrandon_: the which?
[03:51] <imbrandon_> lp.net/people/imbrandon  --> lp.net/~imbrandon
[03:52] <imbrandon_> i'm sure that wasent the only change, just the one i noticed today
[03:52] <Hobbsee> ah yes
[03:52] <Nafallo> kewl
[03:54] <StevenK>  /distros has also gone away
[03:54] <imbrandon_> hrm
[03:54] <imbrandon_> strange
[03:55] <imbrandon_> hopefully everything redirects ok
[03:55] <StevenK> My bookmarks still work, so I suppose so.
[03:55] <imbrandon_> hehe
[03:55] <imbrandon_> yea thats what i was worried about
[03:55] <imbrandon_> i have a shitton of bookmarks
[03:59] <Nafallo> bddebian: ! *hugs*
[03:59] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:59] <bddebian> Hi Nafallo
[04:00] <Hobbsee> hey bddebian 
[04:00] <bddebian> Heya Hobbsee
[04:01] <imbrandon_> heya bddebian
[04:01] <bddebian> Heya imbrandon
[04:08] <lritter> dpkg-deb: building package `libzzub-dev' in `../libzzub-dev_0.1-1_i386.deb'.
[04:08] <lritter> tar: -: file name read contains nul character
[04:08] <lritter> what kind of error is this?
[04:09] <Nafallo> seems to be a NOOP :-)
[04:09] <lritter> i don't understand it
[04:09] <lritter> it does not build my package, instead i get above error messages
[04:10] <geser> lritter: it must be something else
[04:11] <geser> I also see this sometimes in pbuilder and the package stills builds
[04:11] <lritter> well besides that one there are no other errors
[04:12] <lritter> i get a lot of these tho:
[04:12] <lritter> warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined; using uid of process (1234)
[04:12] <geser> those are also normal
[04:13] <geser> where are you looking for the deb?
[04:13] <geser> have you looked in /var/cache/pbuilder/result?
[04:15] <lritter> oh, there they are :)
[04:18] <lritter> but no files included
[04:18] <lritter> grr
[04:50] <joejaxx> hello all
[04:50] <bddebian> Heya joejaxx
[04:51] <Sp4rKy> hi all
[04:54] <bddebian> Heya Sp4rKy
[04:55] <joejaxx> Sp4rKy: hello :)
[04:55] <Sp4rKy> heya joejaxx 
[04:55] <Sp4rKy> how are you ?
[04:55] <joejaxx> i am ok just a little tired
[05:33] <Riddell> elkbuntu: that recording of Auld Lang Syne was sounding quite good until the last line randomly anglisised the title!
[06:01] <jdong> imbrandon: gasp, beryl in feisty :)
[06:01] <jdong> sweet
[06:07] <crimsun> beryl makes my install weep and kill baby jebus
[06:08] <crimsun> (as does compiz for that matter, so none of that eye candy crap here)
[06:08] <jdong> lol
[06:09] <crimsun> it completely breaks changing mode in every env I've tried
[06:09] <jdong> crimsun: changing mode?
[06:09] <crimsun> xrandr
[06:12] <jdong> oh, ok
[06:12] <jdong> yeah I wouldn't be surprised if that breaks :)
[06:17] <nixternal> crimsun: ala beryl of crap :)
[06:18] <nixternal> heh, makes your install weep and kill baby jesus ;p
[06:19] <ogra> but it wobbles
[06:19] <ryanakca> how do I fix "E: solseek source: build-depends-on-obsolete-package build-depends: xlibs-dev"
[06:20] <crimsun> my fist wobbles, too, when I can't change modes using xranr and compiz/beryl
[06:20] <crimsun> xrandr, even
[06:20] <fdoving> ryanakca: depend on xorg-dev is my guess.
[06:20] <ryanakca> kk, thanks
[06:20] <fdoving> ryanakca: instead of the old xlibs-dev.
[06:20] <nixternal> haha ogra
[06:20] <nixternal> but it wobbles
[06:20] <crimsun> ryanakca: use the modular b-ds
[06:21] <ogra> ryanakca, apt-cache show xlibs-dev
[06:21] <crimsun> beryl's almost up there with hda-intel 
[06:21] <ogra> it has a description ;)
[06:21] <ryanakca> crimsun: umm... sorry... lost me... modular b-ds?
[06:21] <crimsun> see what ogra typed
[06:21] <ogra> b-ds -> build-dependencies
[06:21] <ryanakca> yep :)
[06:22] <ryanakca> ah, kk, thanks
[06:26] <geser> bddebian: can I merge mysql-query-browser?
[06:27] <bddebian> geser: Yes, please.  But can you please do me a favor and see where the .desktop file goes.  Apparently in Edgy it's in the wrong location?
[06:28] <geser> bddebian: $ dpkg-deb -c mysql-query-browser-common_1.2.5beta-2ubuntu1_all.deb  | grep desktop
[06:28] <geser> -rw-r--r-- root/root       223 2007-01-03 18:08 ./usr/share/applications/MySQLQueryBrowser.desktop
[06:30] <ryanakca> can I safely ignore "W: solseek source: maintainer-script-lacks-debhelper-token debian/postinst"? and how do I fix http://pastebin.ca/303034 ? (it's only been happening since I've been using gpg-agent...)
[06:34] <geser> bddebian: according to p.u.c it's in edgy in the same location
[06:38] <lionel> geser, bddebian: on what I can see on my Edgy box the .desktop is as the right place and MySQL Query Browser appears in the menu
[06:38] <lionel> but the icon is missing
[06:39] <lionel> icon sits there: /usr/share/mysql-gui/MySQLIcon_QueryBrowser_48x48.png
[06:39] <bddebian> Ack, yeah the icon, sorry
[06:45] <geser> I will change the desktop file to use the installed xpm file then
[06:47] <bddebian> geser: That file should be OK, it's just in the wrong place :)
[06:48] <geser> the package installes already an icon (xpm) in /usr/share/pixmaps
[06:50] <joejaxx> lol i really need to have a local copy of universe haha
[06:51] <joejaxx> you all said it was about 25GB right? for one arch?
[06:54] <joejaxx> and for one release ie feisty
[07:00] <xerxas> I cannot compile a mono program within pbuilder , gmcs crashes, but it doesn't crash outside of the pbuilder, does anyone have a hint ? 
[07:10] <cavediver> Hi there, are there plans for packaging Asterisk 1.4 anytime soon. I was told to ask here.
[07:16] <cavediver> Hm. I though He-Man was the master of the universe...
[07:18] <ogra> he-man == dholbach ...
[07:18] <ogra> he-man is on holiday :)
[07:18] <cavediver> I see...
[07:18] <cavediver> :P
[07:19] <Nafallo> ogra: seb to? :-)
[07:19] <cavediver> Are you guys just running the repos or are you also packaging stuff ?
[07:19] <ogra> nope, seb doesnt lead motu :)
[07:19] <Nafallo> ogra: holiday silly ;-)
[07:19] <ogra> motu is only about packagng
[07:19] <cavediver> Ok.
[07:20] <ogra> the buildds are run by the buildd admins ... not related to motu 
[07:20] <cavediver> If I want to learn to package stuff, where do I start ?
[07:20] <Nafallo> I haven't seen anything gnomish uploaded in a while :-P
[07:20] <ogra> read the packaging guide in the docs 
[07:20] <ogra> its included by default in ubuntu
[07:21] <cavediver> The closest I've come to that is alien a rmp package :P
[07:21] <ogra> its a very easy guide to get your first packages done ...
[07:21] <cavediver> I see, will look into it then.
[07:21] <ogra> if you got that done and want to dig deeper read the debian new maintainer guide
[07:21] <ogra> but beware, its a beast of a document
[07:22] <cavediver> I'm sure it is.
[07:22] <xerxas> Nafallo:  ? 
[07:22] <xerxas> you have no idea on my mono problem ? 
[07:22] <Nafallo> xerxas: nope
[07:23] <somerville32> !info curl
[07:23] <ubotu> curl: Get a file from an HTTP, HTTPS, FTP or GOPHER server. In component main, is optional. Version 7.15.4-1ubuntu2 (edgy), package size 157 kB, installed size 256 kB
[07:25] <xerxas> Nafallo:  can you have a look at my error ?
[07:25] <xerxas> http://pastebin.ca/303117
[07:29] <Nafallo> xerxas: don't remember how to fix that, sorry. you might want to look at one of the other apps and try to figure it out.
[07:29] <Nafallo> xerxas: s/apps/packages/
[07:29] <xerxas> Nafallo:  do you know wich one ? 
[07:29] <xerxas> f-spot ? 
[07:29] <xerxas> or one that uses NSharp ? 
[07:29] <Nafallo> xerxas: just a mono-thing :-)
[07:29] <xerxas> ok 
[07:30] <Nafallo> if I'm not mistaken they require some extra love somewhere..
[07:31] <xerxas> they ? other mono packages ? 
[07:31] <xerxas> what love ? 
[07:31] <xerxas> :)
[07:32] <Nafallo> bddebian: :-)
[07:33] <Nafallo> xerxas: baah. still better ask one of the mono guys :-P
[07:34] <xerxas> Nafallo:  you mean, make a bug report ? 
[07:34] <Nafallo> xerxas: I meant to ping them :-)
[07:35] <xerxas> I don't think they know something about pbuilder, but will try anyway 
[07:39] <somerville32> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/curl/+bug/73447
[07:40] <somerville32> ...
[07:40] <somerville32> Ubugtu: Bug #73447
[07:40] <somerville32> Anyhows...
[07:40] <somerville32> cjwatson approved the SRU 
[07:41] <somerville32> I should subscribe the archive team, right?
[07:41] <white> siretart: finish with work? :)
[07:42] <somerville32> oh wait, nvm
[07:42] <somerville32> I need to upload the package
[07:42] <somerville32> doh
[07:42] <somerville32> Which means I need a core-dev sponsor! :D
[07:43] <siretart> white: just returned home :)
[07:43] <fdoving> somerville32: there is ubuntu-main-sponsors team in launchpad. might want to subscribe that if you don't find an core-dev sponsor.
[07:45] <bddebian> Heya siretart
[07:45] <somerville32> fdoving: Since crimsun isn't around, who is a good person to bug?
[07:46] <fdoving> somerville32: I bug imbrandon if he's around.
[07:46] <somerville32> imbrandon: ping
[07:51] <siretart> huhu bddebian 
[07:54] <somerville32> ajmitch, ping
[08:16] <xerxas> bzr: ERROR: Unable to connect to SSH host bazaar.launchpad.net; 
[08:16] <xerxas> is this normal ? 
[08:16] <xerxas> oops 
[08:16] <xerxas> sorry , I didn't saw my private key isn't the correct one 
[08:21] <xerxas> how svn and bzr stuff are supposed to be versionned ? 
[08:36] <bddebian> Heya LaserJock
[08:36] <LaserJock> hi bddebian 
[08:43] <LaserJock> hmm, anybody know if edgy-proposed uploads show up in the edgy queue?
[08:45] <LaserJock> actually, maybe that's a better question for -devel
[08:48] <LaserJock> hmm, well ubuntu-archive is currently subscribed to 124 bugs, that could be it
[08:51] <enyc> LaserJock: I dont understand the way updates / bug fixing really works
[08:51] <LaserJock> ok
[08:52] <enyc> LaserJock: I dont know igf everything is automatically looked at by some team... or what exactly
[08:52] <LaserJock> well, what do you mean by "everything"?
[08:52] <enyc> LaserJock: I have put in SRU update bug report ... and it has now been answered by StephanPoytra ;-)
[08:53] <enyc> LaserJock: I mean bugs relating to packages in universe  really...
[08:53] <ryanakca> can I safely ignore "W: solseek source: maintainer-script-lacks-debhelper-token debian/postinst"? and how do I fix http://pastebin.ca/303034 ? (it's only been happening since I've been using gpg-agent...)
[08:53] <LaserJock> well, for Universe, ultimately a MOTU has to look at it at some point
[08:53] <enyc> LaserJock: I seee ... and they always do? 
[08:54] <LaserJock> enyc: as they have time
[08:54] <LaserJock> enyc: there is much to do
[08:54] <enyc> LaserJock: [ok] 
[08:54] <LaserJock> we are working on trying to speed/optimize things
[08:54] <enyc> LaserJock: please tell me what is meant by "+1" mentioned by Stephan in https://launchpad.net/bugs/77485
[08:54] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 77485 in qpsmtpd "[SRU]  request: edgy:qpsmtpd fix for bug #72602" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
[08:54] <LaserJock> but it's still a lot of manual work
[08:54] <enyc> LaserJock: I dont know if this has now been uploaded to proposed or what
[08:55] <LaserJock> enyc: Stephan is a part of the motu-sru team
[08:55] <LaserJock> enyc: it should be all documented on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/SRU
[08:55] <enyc> LaserJock: sure... and im not sure what he means by saying "+1" there
[08:56] <LaserJock> that's an "ack" or an approval
[08:56] <LaserJock> "A proposal is accepted, once three people from the MOTU-SRU team give their assent."
[08:56] <LaserJock> that was one
[08:57] <enyc> LaserJock: aha [ok]  ;-)
[08:57] <enyc> LaserJock: right well solong as this has started te be apporved.. I shall create another SRU update for the dapper package in the same way (has same bug!)
[08:58] <enyc> LaserJock: now that I understand I am doing the right thing ;-)
[09:12] <crimsun> tsmithe: #77689 doesn't state whether you have anything else in ~/.asoundrc
[09:13] <LaserJock> ryanakca: I think you need a #DEBHELPER line in the postinst or prerm scripts
[09:14] <ryanakca> LaserJock: kk, thanks... and the gpg error?
[09:14] <crimsun> has anyone offered a class on filing -good- bugs?
[09:14] <crimsun> these bugs stab baby jebus in the -face-.
[09:15] <LaserJock> crimsun: I think the general consensus might be that we could offer one but not enough people would show up
[09:15] <LaserJock> to make much of a difference at leat
[09:17] <ryanakca> crimsun: the average user usually only files a bug if they think it's major or if they can't do their work... (from what I know)... so, I don't think many people would show up... and the people who work with bugs usualy already know how to properly file them... so attendence would be very low...
[09:18] <crimsun> no, this would be geared to ubuntu-dev hopeful.
[09:18] <ryanakca> crimsun: might help if we had an interface simillar to bugs.kde.org for filing bugs... that way we get the most information possible...
[09:18] <ryanakca> ah, kk
[09:18] <crimsun> sorry, I should have been more explicit in stating that I'm unimpressed with several ubuntu-dev [hopefuls]  for these bug reports.
[09:19] <LaserJock> crimsun: in that case I say it would be a good idea
[09:19] <crimsun> we should know better.
[09:19] <ryanakca> kk... yeah
[09:19] <LaserJock> I think MOTU School should be also used for "Continuing Education" as well as teaching new people
[09:23] <LaserJock> ryanakca: the Ubuntu Classroom?
[09:23] <ryanakca> yes... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
[09:24] <LaserJock> about a year ago or so I wanted to create a online Ubuntu classroom system that all Ubuntu teams could use
[09:24] <ryanakca> our schedule is getting kindof empty as you can see... we've run out of topics... and teachers... and it would be helpful if we got a bit of advertising :D
[09:24] <LaserJock> something like moodle
[09:25] <Nafallo> LaserJock: sounds nice :-)
[09:25] <LaserJock> yeah, just not the easiest thing in the world to do
[09:26] <LaserJock> I wanted to create one place where people could come to learn about everything *buntu
[09:26] <Nafallo> things seldom are before you've done them and learnt :-)
[09:26] <LaserJock> from the community
[09:26] <ryanakca> LaserJock: the current one is geared mainly towards new users... seeing that it's currently "owned"/"managed" by the NUN... but it was used for Ubuntu week...
[09:29] <ryanakca> LaserJock: If the MOTUs like the idea... maybe add it to the NUN meeting agenda?
[09:30] <LaserJock> yeah, perhaps
[09:30] <LaserJock> as always it's a matter of time
[09:31] <ryanakca> LaserJock: I'm sending the mailing list a little wake-up... maybe organise a meeting sometime in the next couple of weeks... who knows ;)
[09:31] <LaserJock> k
[09:32] <LaserJock> I'm interested in moving things beyond just an IRC classroom session
[09:32] <LaserJock> we should take material that comes from the sessions and cleaning it up and putting it somewhere
[09:33] <LaserJock> I try to take material from the MOTU School sessions and put them into the Packaging Guide for instance
[09:34] <tsmithe> i would never have realised to say other than I had on that report otherwise
[09:34] <LaserJock> also maybe using some real classroom technology (moodle, whiteboards, etc.)
[09:35] <tsmithe> also, i hasten to add that the only reason i did not respond was not that i was not willing, rather that my wireless network was being less than mediocre
[09:35] <ryanakca> Someone had mailed the nun mailing list a couple of weeks ago about setting up some real classes in some real physical buildings... (local library, LUG, etc)
[09:37] <LaserJock> interesting
[09:37] <Nafallo> nice
[09:37] <LaserJock> wouldn't get much where I'm at
[09:37] <ryanakca> LaserJock: We take the material from the Classroom session and put it in some guides... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts  (iirc)
[09:38] <LaserJock> ryanakca: right, but where do they go from there?
[09:38] <ryanakca> same here... KLUG (local LUG) seems to have gone extinct 2-3 years ago...
[09:39] <ryanakca> LaserJock: They just sit there unused... from what I can see...
[09:39] <LaserJock> that's my point
[09:39] <ryanakca> ah
[09:40] <LaserJock> if those could be turned into actual "textbooks" for use online or for the doc team it would seem more productive
[09:40] <ryanakca> I thought you meant going as far as cleaning it and uploading it somewhere for someone to use... we've done that... just that I don't think anybody knows about it...
[09:40] <ryanakca> yeah
[09:40] <LaserJock> it would be cool to have an Ubuntu 101 series
[09:41] <LaserJock> where the people read through some material
[09:41] <LaserJock> and then once a week get together online and get questions answered, etc.
[09:43] <ryanakca> yeah... maybe have a session where "here's the material, here's some questions... if you have questions, come see us, hand in the homework, we'll correct it or give you a link to the answers.. maybe even stick a little gold star on it ;)"
[09:43] <ryanakca> aka, have a real school type thing where people can monitor their progress... 
[09:43] <ryanakca> but, we'd have to find a whole slew of people willing to help out...
[09:44] <LaserJock> it'd probably be easier then having people give full 1hr lectures
[09:46] <ryanakca> hmm... yeah... set up a mailing list... every week, mail out the class material, the questions, and the answers to the previous week's questions... and they could ask questions in it as well...
[09:46] <ryanakca> That way you don't have to worry about timezones, people not showing up, etc...
[09:47] <LaserJock> realtime is good too of course
[09:47] <LaserJock> just gets hard if that's it
[09:47] <ryanakca> yeah
[09:48] <ryanakca> I'm thinking  maybe reduce realtime courses to monthly instead of biweekly... and then have the mailing list type course... who knows... I'll add that to the agenda...
[09:49] <LaserJock> well, if you added in a bit more advanced stuff
[09:50] <ryanakca> Ubuntu-doc might be interested... they write the documentation... we (NUN/MOTU/QA/Ubuntu Education Organisation) form questions based on it... we mail it out...
[09:50] <LaserJock> and contribution related
[09:50] <ryanakca> yeah
[09:50] <LaserJock> something like get 1 team every 2 weeks or so to do a little "team marketing" :-)
[09:50] <ryanakca> yeah...
[09:52] <ryanakca> how many teams are there anywais? MOTU, Core, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, QA, Testers, NUN, Desktop / XGL, doc...
[09:53] <LaserJock> artwork
[09:53] <LaserJock> forums
[09:53] <LaserJock> desktop
[09:53] <ryanakca> yeah... hmm... forgot about forums...
[09:53] <ryanakca> desktop... wouldn't that be XGL? or just plain user?
[09:53] <ryanakca> (standard install desktop)
[09:54] <LaserJock> desktop mostly the gnome team
[09:54] <LaserJock> ryanakca: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[09:55] <ryanakca> wow... lots of them... lets say theres 25 of them... they do a speech per year...
[10:01] <siretart> is there a bzr command like repo-push, which pushes not a single branch, but a complete repository and all its branches?
[10:02] <lritter> ryanakca: just to put things into perspective: school sucks.
[10:02] <ryanakca> lritter: meh... depends on your point of view?
[10:02] <LaserJock> lritter: unless you want to do it :-)
[10:02] <lritter> no, it's universal truth.
[10:03] <lritter> i'm sure it was in the bible, as well, but they blanked it out.
[10:03] <LaserJock> I like school as long as I'm interested in the subject
[10:03] <lritter> seriously, lectures and homework is not the best method to get people to learn something
[10:04] <lritter> if this was the way i had to learn about computers when i was 9 years old, i would have become a cook or something.
[10:04] <LaserJock> lritter: it really depends on the person
[10:04] <lritter> to try a different metaphor: you learn the best parts about sex in bed, not in school.
[10:04] <white> lritter: is it you or millions of children saying that? :)
[10:05] <lritter> i'm pretty sure it's millions of children saying that
[10:05] <LaserJock> and unfortunately it's very difficult to give a perfect learning environment to everybody
[10:05] <lritter> i have a better idea
[10:05] <white> hehe
[10:05] <lritter> draw a comic explaining ubuntu
[10:05] <lritter> make it a series
[10:05] <lritter> this is how i learned about ms-dos back then :)
[10:05] <LaserJock> well, I did use Captain Packager in the Ubuntu Packaging Guide ;p
[10:06] <lritter> it's a good guide, i believe
[10:06] <lritter> packaging is still a mess, tho.
[10:06] <lritter> compared to gentoo or arch
[10:06] <lritter> well anyway, a comic where ubuntu explains itself... the parts it consists of and so on
[10:07] <lritter> where you can click on parts of the dialogue and get to documentation and stuff
[10:07] <lritter> to read some of the things in detail
[10:08] <lritter> would be entertaining, and people learn the basics on the way
[10:08] <lritter> i had a book back then made like that, for ms-dos
[10:08] <lritter> i think i learned everything important... all the command.com commands, what the command.com is, how the system boots, what PATH is...
[10:09] <lritter> ascii character tables, writing batchfiles...
[10:09] <lritter> it wasn't a book for children
[10:09] <lritter> but children could read and understand it
[10:10] <LaserJock> interesting
[10:10] <lritter> e.g. to explain command.com, ms-dose (it's a german word play, DOS -> DOSE (can, so she looks like a can))
[10:10] <lritter> had a commander hat on, and gave commands to files
[10:10] <lritter> files where small knobs with legs and a face
[10:11] <lritter> "dir" was a way to let them march up in rows, flags were ways to have them march up differently
[10:12] <lritter> the part that explained directories was built in a way that boxes were organized in a tree... cd and other commands were used to jump between these boxes
[10:12] <lritter> PATH was a robot which could jump between these boxes on its own
[10:12] <LaserJock> geeze, I just read books and typed a lot :/
[10:12] <lritter> and it had one big 2-paged example where you could see different commands in different folders have an effect (or not)
[10:12] <lritter> well it was the first book about computers i ever had
[10:12] <lritter> <3
[10:13] <lritter> the second was the regular reference of gw-basic 
[10:13] <lritter> but the first book really helped me to get started
[10:13] <lritter> it also conveyed this feeling that there was an army of little men waiting for my commands - my personal kingdom
[10:15] <lritter> and it had examples of what would happen when commands were not working... e.g. when commander dose was starting a program that was not in the path... screaming his lungs out shouting "CHESS.EXE! CHESS.EXE!!" while chess.exe sits there stupidly.
[10:15] <lritter> (in a different folder)
[10:16] <lritter> i mean, after all, the computer exposes a model of computing someone had... and it's easier to explain models in stories than to just throw the facts at people
[10:16] <lritter> i think most people can work easier with images
[10:16] <lritter> and examples
[10:17] <ryanakca> the visual learners can... if your auditory... maybe not...
[10:17] <lritter> a minority is auditory
[10:17] <ryanakca> yeah
[10:17] <lritter> i have a hard time listening.
[10:17] <lritter> :>
[10:17] <lritter> monkey see, monkey do
[10:17] <lritter> :>
[10:17] <ryanakca> lritter: just a sec, I have a link for you...
[10:19] <vil> ademan: ping
[10:19] <ryanakca> or not... I guess the commics in Why's (Poingant) guide to Ruby aren't as I remember...
[10:19] <lritter> :)
[10:25] <ademan> vil: pong
[10:26] <ademan> :-)
[10:29] <vil> ademan: hi
[10:29] <ademan> how's it goin?
[10:29] <vil> did yoy find any problem with the eclipse-cdt so far?
[10:29] <vil> i would like to publish it finally
[10:30] <vil> fine, thx
[10:32] <jdong> how long do the servers keep old versions of binaries around?
[10:33] <LaserJock> jdong: I'm not sure
[10:34] <LaserJock> jdong: do you want it gone or do you want something that's already gone?
[10:34] <jdong> LaserJock: neither, a hypothetical situation
[10:34] <LaserJock> ah
[10:34] <LaserJock> well, I think it's pretty fast
[10:34] <jdong> right now the ktorrent.org 2.0.3 package link points to dapper-backports official packaging
[10:34] <LaserJock> but LP keeps them
[10:34] <jdong> I want to make 2.1RC1 available thru backports
[10:34] <jdong> and was wondering if there'd be another way to grab the 2.0.3 packages
[10:34] <jdong> you say LP keeps them around?
[10:36] <jdong> ah yes, I see them
[10:36] <ademan> vil: no it's going great, i just wish there was an easier way to get it to use the sun jvm, but that's unfortunately up to doko i believe right?
[10:36] <jdong> LaserJock: how long does launchpad archive them? :D
[10:36] <ademan> i was thinking of packaging up cube and maybe nexuiz, is there a way to see if they're already in revu?
[10:37] <siretart> jdong: I *think* that old binaries aren't garbage collected at all yet, but that may change at any time
[10:37] <siretart> ademan: please don't
[10:37] <LaserJock> jdong: forever, as far as I know
[10:37] <ademan> siretart: why?
[10:37] <jdong> cool :)
[10:37] <siretart> ademan: cube has severe licence issues making it unnable to package, und nexuiz is ridiculusly big
[10:38] <ademan> hrm, i thought cube was gpl
[10:38] <siretart> ademan: rather join the debian pkg-games team and commit directly to their team branch for nexuiz
[10:38] <siretart> ademan: no, it isn't
[10:38] <ademan> oh... :-/
[10:38] <bddebian> The Engine is
[10:38] <ademan> ah
[10:38] <siretart> ademan: the engine is in theory zlib, the media files are unlincened
[10:38] <bddebian> But not the content of any of the games derived from it
[10:39] <ademan> true, i did recognize those models from polygen or whatever
[10:39] <siretart> ademan: the upstream author is kind of a moron, and does not want any redistribution or recompiled binaries
[10:39] <siretart> ademan: been there, tried that, gave it up
[10:39] <vil> siretart: maybe it can be done in multiverse...
[10:39] <siretart> vil: no licence - no permission to redistribute - no multiverse. sorry
[10:39] <ademan> siretart: have you contacted him?
[10:39] <siretart> ademan: a good friend of mine
[10:40] <siretart> ademan: btw, you might rather want to have a look at sauerbraten. unfortunately, the licencing situation is pretty similar
[10:40] <ademan> that's sad i like cube
[10:41] <siretart> upstream doesn't want to have it in distributions
[10:41] <ademan> why wouldn't he want it redistrobuted?  unless it has to do with him dodging his own legal bullets (like i said i dunno the license on those models)
[10:41] <siretart> because he does only want to support his own binaries
[10:42] <ademan> hrm, but can't the redistrobution license have the free software warning "no warranty provided" or whatever?
[10:43] <siretart> you may want to talk to 'Fuddl' on irc. he currently works on sauerbraten for debian and knows the situation much better than me. we are at the same university and I trust his judgements
[10:43] <ademan> oh polycount was the site i was thinking of, i was pretty sure those models were from the quake 2 section of polycount
[10:44] <ademan> wow, polycount has changed, can't even access the models atm to check
[10:47] <ademan> either way, maybe i should shoot for open arena instead for now
[10:48] <vil> ademan: back to eclipse, can you remind me about the sun jvm thing?
[10:50] <ademan> basically it's slow with the GNU jvm
[10:50] <ademan> or whatever the alternative to the sun jvm was
[10:50] <ademan> and it seems to try very hard to use the alternative JVM
[10:50] <ademan> even update-alternatives didn't help
[10:51] <ademan> ie it ignores what ubuntu says is the default java jvm
[10:51] <vil> aah, i see
[10:51] <vil> let me think about it, if we can change that somehow
[10:52] <vil> well, i have a question about package versioning if anyone can help
[10:53] <siretart> ademan: openarena is already ready and packaged by Fuddl as well ;)
[10:54] <ademan> siretart: geeze i'm just useless lol
[10:54] <ademan> that was on debian though correct?  So we'll see it in feisty?
[10:54] <white> ademan: make sure that wesnoth is always the newest version :)
[10:55] <white> ademan: and that the pictures for the characters do not change otherwise i lose my identification part again :(
[10:55] <siretart> ademan: if it hasn't been synced yet, please file a sync request
[10:55] <bddebian> siretart: Speaking of games, care to check out pegsolitaire on REVU for me? :)
[10:55] <vil> i made a new version of eclipse-cdt package (upstream 3.1.1)
[10:55] <siretart> bddebian: err, sorry?
[10:56] <white> ademan: ah and send the patches to debian bts so that i can play the newest version as well ;)
[10:56] <ademan> siretart: what do you mean?  sync from debian?
[10:56] <vil> the last was take from debian eclipse-cdt-3.0.1-3
[10:56] <bddebian> siretart: I uploaded a game written by a friend of mine on REVU called pegsolitaire. :)
[10:56] <vil> what would be the right version number for the new package, if it will be uploaded to feisty?
[10:56] <ademan> white: hehe, well i was hoping to package from scratch for my first package, i'm new to this
[10:57] <siretart> ah
[10:57] <white> ademan: hold on
[10:58] <siretart> ademan: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources - section 'syncs'
[10:58] <sistpoty> hi folks
[10:58] <bddebian> Heya sistpoty
[10:59] <siretart> hey sistpoty!
[10:59] <white> ademan: you could package qtodo, i was thinking about using it :)
[10:59] <sistpoty> hi bddebian and siretart
[10:59] <white> ademan: hijack this ITP and go for it :)
[10:59] <white> ademan: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=345909
[10:59] <Ubugtu> Debian bug 345909 in wnpp "ITP: qtodo -- Todo List Manager" [Wishlist,Open]  
[10:59] <white> oh nice
[11:01] <siretart> white: yes, Ubugtu is a good friend. it knows about a couple of bugtrakers
[11:02] <white> hmm i might consider using it regularly ;)
[11:04] <white> ademan: don't worry about amu, you can just take the ITP, just in case you can tell him i told you to do so 
[11:05] <white> nice wording, i should hit the hay
[11:05] <vil> hey folks, can i ask someone to help with package version numbers?
[11:06] <sistpoty> what's your problem vil?
[11:06] <vil> not sure, what version suffix to choose
[11:07] <sistpoty> vil: for a new package?
[11:07] <vil> i made a new version of cdt and would like to put it in feisty
[11:07] <sistpoty> vil: is it in feisty already? or completely new package?
[11:07] <vil> there exists eclipse-cdt-3.0.1-3 in both debian and ubuntu
[11:07] <geser> and the version you packaged?
[11:08] <sistpoty> vil: new upstream version or the same one?
[11:08] <vil> the new upstream is 3.1.1
[11:08] <sistpoty> vil: then it's 3.1.1-0ubuntu1
[11:08] <vil> new upstream
[11:08] <vil> ok, sounds good
[11:08] <siretart> white: you know amu?
[11:08] <sistpoty> vil: in case 3.1.1 would hit debian it would be 3.1.1-1. using 3.1.1-0ubuntu1 thus ensures that a new debian version will be higher
[11:09] <white> siretart: sure
[11:09] <vil> also, sometimes i get W: NMU shoud be mentioned in the changelog (or similar). should i care about it or is that ok?
[11:10] <bddebian> vil: Ignore that for Ubuntu
[11:10] <white> siretart: well several years ago we were working a bit together and we became friends
[11:10] <sistpoty> vil: we don't have the maintainer principle in ubuntu, so we don't have NMU's as well... just ignore it
[11:10] <vil> great, thx for explaining
[11:10] <sistpoty> np
[11:12] <white> siretart: do you know him? some time passed by since i've heard from him, is he still working on the same stuff?
[11:12] <siretart> white: I've met him in wiesbaden at linuxtag 2006, together with \sh
[11:13] <white> i guess he is still doing kubuntu stuff 
[11:13] <siretart> that's what I heard as well, but I might not be uptodate
[11:13] <white> yes i reckon that was the last time when i met him face to face :(
[11:14] <white> well but i'll catch some sleep now, see you later
[11:14] <Nafallo> siretart: you made -extracodecs transitional to now :-P
[11:15] <siretart> Nafallo: I just uploaded xine-lib_1.1.3-1ubuntu1, which reintroduces -extracodecs for upgrading purposes
[11:16] <Nafallo> siretart: yea, saw that. I just liked the old name ;-)
[11:16] <siretart> old name? sorry?
[11:17] <Nafallo> -extracodecs :-) was easy to understand what it was :-)
[11:17] <ryanakca> can I safely ignore "W: solseek source: maintainer-script-lacks-debhelper-token debian/postinst"? and how do I fix http://pastebin.ca/303034 ? (it's only been happening since I've been using gpg-agent...)
[11:18] <siretart> Nafallo: ah, I see
[11:19] <siretart> ryanakca: run lintian with option '-i' to see the long explanation
[11:19] <ryanakca> siretart: how would I run lintian for an error/warning created during debuild -S -sa?
[11:21] <ryanakca> nevermind :)
[11:23] <ademan> psssttt... what does itp stand for?
[11:23] <ryanakca> and about the GPG problem?
[11:23] <Nafallo> ademan: Intent To Package
[11:23] <siretart> ademan: intend to package
[11:23] <ademan> ah
[11:23] <siretart> imbrandon_: we have beryl in feisty now?
[11:24] <ademan> thanks
[11:24] <ryanakca> idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, information technology professional, or intend to package :D
[11:24] <ademan> until the NVIDIA drivers get their act together i don't really want to see beryl anywhere near feisty
[11:24] <bddebian> Itch Thy Posterior
[11:24] <ryanakca> also, institute of transpersonal psychology :D
[11:24] <ryanakca> or that :P
[11:25] <ryanakca> does Ubuntu have an ITP tracker? (I know debian does...)
[11:25] <siretart> ademan: nvidia works for me on nvidia 6600gt and compiz, so why not with beryl?
[11:26] <ryanakca> would make it much easier to figure out if someone is working on something
[11:26] <siretart> bddebian: lol
[11:26] <ademan> siretart: ever heard of the black window bug?
[11:26] <siretart> ademan: haven't seen it yet. I'm currently somewhat annoyed about its poor multihead support
[11:27] <ademan> i've got a 6600 go, and i contend with it regularly, well, whenever i feel like running beryl, which isn't much... because of the black window bug
[11:27] <siretart> hm. why it doesn't happen with compiz?
[11:27] <ademan> siretart: i would assume it does
[11:27] <ademan> what resolution do you run at?
[11:28] <ademan> it happens when the video card runs out of vram
[11:28] <Lutin> depends if compiz relies of the glx extensions provdied byt he nvidia driver I guess
[11:28] <ademan> bigger windows = more memory
[11:28] <Lutin> s/of/on
[11:28] <siretart> left monitor at 1280x1024, right one 1024x768
[11:28] <ademan> geeze
[11:28] <ademan> i would think you'd get it
[11:28] <siretart> sorry, didn't notice it
[11:28] <ademan> does compiz use GL_ext_texture_from_pixmap?
[11:28] <siretart> what is it?
[11:28] <siretart> no idea
[11:28] <Lutin> compiz uses xgl iirc
[11:29] <sistpoty> can I have some cool looking stuff as well? and a flex with real c++ support please? *g*
[11:29] <ademan> when the video card runs out of vram all windows created after that point are black, in theory it should start using system ram, but the NVIDIA drivers don't yet
[11:29] <Nafallo> Lutin: I've used compiz OOTB on feisty... AIGLX
[11:29] <Lutin> Nafallo: ah ok
[11:30] <ademan> i haven't done squat development on ubuntu yet, i'm still sorely missing my beloved msvc++
[11:30] <Lutin> anyway, I guess the bug is caused by the nvidia-provided glx_ext_texture_from_pixmap
[11:30] <ademan> eclipse-cdt is nice, but slow
[11:30] <ademan> Lutin: yes, it was supposed to be fixed in the newest release but it wasn't
[11:31] <Lutin> ademan: oh :/
[11:31] <Lutin> can't say, I don't really use beryl and even when I use it, I'm never out of video ram ^^
[11:32] <ademan> specs?  and desktop res?
[11:32] <Lutin> 1280*1024 Geforce 7300GT / 256Mo
[11:32] <ademan> yeah, makes sense lol
[11:32] <Lutin> indeed
[11:32] <ademan> next time you do try and open a TON of maximized windows
[11:33] <ademan> after a time (probably pretty long for you) you'll start getting black ones
[11:33] <Lutin> ademan: ok, will try in a few days when I'll be back home
[11:33] <ademan> i get it after 6 or 7, used to be 3 or 4 with the old drivers, but of course i'm running at 1920x1200
[11:33] <Lutin> and how many video ram ?
[11:34] <ademan> 128mb
[11:34] <Lutin> ok
[11:36] <Lutin> will beryl be in feisty ?
[11:37] <ademan> that was my understanding
[11:37] <ademan> as the default WM no less
[11:38] <Lutin> *shrug*
[11:39] <Lutin> kind of suprising
[11:39] <siretart> sistpoty: Thanks for your SRU reports. YOU ROCK! :)
[11:39] <sistpoty> siretart: np... took me quite some time to get an overview myself
[11:40] <sistpoty> siretart: maybe we should use the bug state as some indicator, what do you think?
[11:40] <siretart> ademan: I think feisty will offer the choice between metacity and compiz
[11:41] <Lutin> siretart: you mean install-time choice ?
[11:41] <siretart> sistpoty: either bugstate or tags. but bugstate might be more useful
[11:41] <crimsun> sistpoty: we should have a "test the SRUs in -proposed" day
[11:41] <sistpoty> crimsun: full ack :)
[11:41] <crimsun> quite a few are languishing due to insufficient ACKs
[11:41] <sistpoty> yes
[11:41] <siretart> Lutin: rather at run-time
[11:41] <crimsun> I'll write up something and send to -motu, -devel-announce, and the fridge
[11:42] <sistpoty> cool, thanks crimsun
[11:42] <crimsun> it's a really easy way to contribute
[11:42] <Lutin> siretart: which means the compositing stuff will be installed anyway N
[11:42] <bddebian> Later gang
[11:42] <Lutin> s/N/?
[11:43] <sistpoty> siretart: not quite sure if bug state is really the best thing... if you look at https://launchpad.net/~motu-sru/+subscribedbugs it won't work if the bug is not an sru-report, but instead points to the feisty bug
[11:43] <sistpoty> oh, cool. LP changed that /people/... address *g*
[11:43] <siretart> just noticed that as well
[11:44] <siretart> that makes code.launchpad.net way more usable
[11:48] <siretart> sistpoty: how many SRU team members have to approve an request again?
[11:48] <sistpoty> siretart: 3
[11:48] <siretart> k
[11:59] <ademan> hey, i just upgraded my firefox and it's using the normal firefox logo now....
[11:59] <ademan> mistake?  or is that a result of the canonical/mozilla talks?
[12:00] <crimsun> the latter.
[12:00] <ademan> cool, it's good to have shuttleworth for a leader lol
[12:00] <ademan> er, spokesman or whatever you wanna call him
[12:01] <crimsun> afaik Mark wasn't involved.
[12:01] <Nafallo> ademan: thank mdz :-)
[12:02] <ademan> thank you mdz :-)
[12:02] <ademan> i thought it was a letter from mark, but i guess i was wrong lol
[12:03] <ademan> either way, it's good iceweasel melted
[12:03] <Nafallo> lol
[12:07] <crimsun> it didn't melt
[12:07] <crimsun> it's very much alive and kicking in Debian
[12:09] <ademan> really?  i would have hoped other distros would follow suit
[12:10] <LaserJock> I'm not sure that they didn't exactly
[12:11] <LaserJock> I thought iceweasel was mostly a Debian thing
[12:12] <Nafallo> lol
[12:12] <Nafallo> didn't dholbach have a holiday?
[12:13] <ademan> you guys hear about the standardized packaging thing the fsf is pushing/developing?
[12:13] <LaserJock> I think many of the Canonical people did
[12:13] <crimsun> sistpoty: apologies for the delay on #77348; I didn't receive the bug email until this afternoon.