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| newz2000 | I just sent a message to the list and would love your feedback on it | 04:36 |
|---|---|---|
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| troy_s | newz2000 who were you talking to? | 05:06 |
| newz2000 | anyone in particular | 05:06 |
| newz2000 | no one in particular, I mean | 05:07 |
| troy_s | Quite brilliant really newz -- but it will require the support of many. | 05:14 |
| newz2000 | yeah | 05:15 |
| newz2000 | maybe if there's a little positive feedback from the team I'll post a msg to the forums and also update the bug to get more people involved | 05:15 |
| troy_s | I think the trick is to figure out the process to getting something into the repos. | 05:26 |
| troy_s | main would be lovely, but who knows. | 05:26 |
| newz2000 | sorry for the delayed response, I'm starting to drift off at my keyboard... better call it a night. g'night | 05:34 |
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| === Topic for #ubuntu-artwork: Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Happy New Year to all! | ||
| === Topic (#ubuntu-artwork): set by troy_s at Mon Jan 1 04:00:15 2007 | ||
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| lapo | yo | 10:40 |
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| Cimi | ciao | 03:59 |
| Cimi | here's Cimi | 04:00 |
| lizardking | hello | 04:01 |
| lizardking | here's lizardking | 04:01 |
| lizardking | ;) | 04:01 |
| lapo | ciao cimi | 04:07 |
| lapo | ciao lizardking | 04:07 |
| lapo | too many italians :-) | 04:08 |
| lizardking | ehhe | 04:13 |
| lizardking | ja italian too | 04:13 |
| andreasn | the Italian Conspiracy, eh? ;) | 04:14 |
| andreasn | slowly taking over everything artwork related in GNOME... | 04:15 |
| === TheSheep knew that ridicolously blue sky looked suspicious | ||
| Cimi | andreasn, do you like http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9100/schermataem7.jpg | 04:17 |
| Cimi | ubuntustudio theme work in progress | 04:18 |
| TheSheep | murrine black? | 04:18 |
| Cimi | new version | 04:18 |
| andreasn | looks nice | 04:18 |
| Cimi | with selectable hilight | 04:19 |
| andreasn | black themes can be hard, so I think you've done a good job on this one | 04:19 |
| Cimi | thank you | 04:19 |
| Cimi | www.ubuntustudio.com | 04:19 |
| lapo | looks nice | 04:20 |
| andreasn | reminds me that I better make that inkscape set usable | 04:20 |
| TheSheep | Cimi: what icon theme is that? | 04:21 |
| Cimi | of the screenshot? | 04:21 |
| TheSheep | Cimi: yes | 04:21 |
| TheSheep | Cimi: just curious | 04:21 |
| Cimi | osx :( | 04:21 |
| TheSheep | ah | 04:22 |
| TheSheep | right, should have recognized the trash :) | 04:22 |
| lizardking | try to use Tango-Noir, as in ubuntustudio wiki says | 04:22 |
| lizardking | andreasn: Ahah the italian Consipracy is cool | 04:24 |
| andreasn | think about it | 04:24 |
| lizardking | I think as in fashion italian people have some good innate stuff for artwork | 04:24 |
| andreasn | Lapo, Ulisse, Luca Ferretti | 04:25 |
| andreasn | and the list goes on.... ;) | 04:25 |
| andreasn | and Cimi and yourself | 04:25 |
| andreasn | right? | 04:25 |
| Cimi | no | 04:26 |
| Cimi | lizardking sucks on themes | 04:26 |
| Cimi | :P | 04:26 |
| TheSheep | that's because Italia is sunny -- you have an advantage while picking the colors ;) | 04:26 |
| lizardking | yes Cimi you are right | 04:26 |
| lizardking | I'm an improvvisate artworker, i'm an engineering | 04:26 |
| lizardking | but I can give good adivce to who make themes ;) (bad english) | 04:27 |
| Cimi | lizardking, ;) | 04:29 |
| lizardking | Cimi: yes? | 04:30 |
| Cimi | just for advices/suggestions :P | 04:30 |
| lizardking | yep! | 04:30 |
| lizardking | but I like artwork, I can give good suggestions! | 04:31 |
| TheSheep | lizardking: any good tutorial for beginners at gtk theming? | 04:32 |
| lizardking | TheSheep: You should visit the official Gnome theming tutorial | 04:34 |
| lizardking | TheSheep: In my opinion is not good a lot | 04:34 |
| lizardking | Cimi: Trevio is packaging you murrine-configurator | 04:35 |
| TheSheep | lizardking: do you have any experience with xfce-specific parts of theme? | 04:35 |
| lizardking | Cimi: Trevino wanto to send the debian/ dir of the package | 04:35 |
| lizardking | TheSheep: No, I don't use Xfce and I have any skills wit this features | 04:35 |
| TheSheep | lizardking: found the tutorial, thanks a lot | 04:38 |
| lizardking | TheSheep: ok, I hope my little help could improve your Skills ;) | 04:39 |
| Cimi | http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1687/screenab7.png | 04:45 |
| Cimi | see ubuntustudio look | 04:46 |
| lapo | Cimi: I like the bg image image what's that? | 04:47 |
| TheSheep | Cimi: woudn't a graphics artist prefer a solid background? :) | 04:47 |
| Cimi | TheSheep, i agree | 04:48 |
| Cimi | but it is the only bg i have with selectable colors :D | 04:48 |
| TheSheep | Cimi: maybe a grid... | 04:48 |
| lapo | Cimi: apt-get install gnome-backgrounds | 04:48 |
| lizardking | look fine this bg | 04:50 |
| Cimi | ok stars bg rocks | 04:50 |
| lapo | Cimi: andreasn's | 04:50 |
| lizardking | sudo aptitude install gnome-backgrounds ;) | 04:52 |
| lapo | lizardking: I'm oldschool :-) | 04:52 |
| Cimi | sudo pacman -S gnome-backgrounds | 04:52 |
| Cimi | archlinux reigns! | 04:52 |
| lizardking | pacman, which is the arcade game? ;) hihihi | 04:52 |
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| Trevinho | Cimi: hi | 05:01 |
| lizardking | Trevinho: hi | 05:01 |
| lizardking | Cimi: here is trevi | 05:02 |
| Trevinho | [ITA] siamo una buona percentuale di italiani qui mi pare... :P [/ITA] | 05:02 |
| Cimi | hi Trevinho | 05:02 |
| Trevinho | ;) | 05:02 |
| lizardking | yes we are almost italian | 05:03 |
| Trevinho | Cimi: did you receive the debian folder? | 05:03 |
| Cimi | nothing yet | 05:03 |
| Cimi | alice sucks | 05:04 |
| lapo | Cimi: gmail | 05:05 |
| Trevinho | alice sucks... lol... said in english it sounds better :D | 05:05 |
| Cimi | :D | 05:06 |
| lizardking | Aahaahh loool | 05:08 |
| lizardking | Alice is my girlfriend, trevi! :( (joke) | 05:08 |
| troy_s | Has anyone been using the LUA engine yet? | 05:12 |
| lizardking | troy_s: What is the LUA engine? | 05:14 |
| lizardking | http://dborg.wordpress.com/tag/gnome/ is this? | 05:16 |
| lizardking | The color are quite ugly : P | 05:16 |
| lizardking | mhh it seems a mix of ubuntulooks,clearlooks, and murrine glassy | 05:17 |
| troy_s | Lua pretty much puts an end to engine writing. | 05:19 |
| troy_s | It is a LUA scripted frontend with a Cairo drawing backend. | 05:19 |
| troy_s | It doesn't do anything other than provide a scripting interface | 05:19 |
| troy_s | So 'engines' are basically obsolete. | 05:19 |
| troy_s | dborg wrote it -- very clever. | 05:19 |
| troy_s | The colours have nothing to do with it... | 05:19 |
| troy_s | clearlooks / murrine / etc are all hard coded engines -- not versatile. Lua will be able to do just about anything. | 05:20 |
| lapo | troy_s: sounds cool | 05:24 |
| lapo | troy_s: well it let's you write "engines" with higher level programming language tho :-) | 05:25 |
| lizardking | i understand now | 05:25 |
| lizardking | I did not read the post | 05:26 |
| lapo | or even it let's you script "engines" :-) | 05:26 |
| lizardking | Before you said "LUA Engines" I think that was a new one | 05:26 |
| troy_s | Indeed. | 05:29 |
| troy_s | Well technically it _is_ an engine. | 05:29 |
| troy_s | But it has the potential to be an engine to end all engines. | 05:29 |
| troy_s | In that you do not need to recompile the 'engine' to see the effects of the work. | 05:29 |
| troy_s | Quite brilliant really. | 05:29 |
| lapo | yes it is | 05:30 |
| Cimi | 2 problems | 05:30 |
| lapo | btw It solves the problem of user installing themes, not artists doing them | 05:30 |
| Cimi | 1) gtkrc have to get updated "engines" | 05:31 |
| troy_s | 1) ??? | 05:31 |
| Cimi | for example if someone port murrine to LUA | 05:31 |
| lapo | Cimi: that lua engine is (well will be) everything you need | 05:31 |
| Cimi | then every themes that use murrine ported to lua need to reupdate their gtkrc every time i make a release | 05:32 |
| Cimi | and this is absolutely _bad_ | 05:32 |
| lapo | Cimi: nope, that engines do all the drawing stuff via scripting so you won't need murrine at all | 05:32 |
| troy_s | Actually no. | 05:32 |
| troy_s | You completely misunderstand | 05:32 |
| troy_s | It is far superior than engine writing | 05:32 |
| dborg__ | cimi is still thinking about lots of people customising a base engine. of course with lua scripts themes will always be complete forks, just like metacity themes | 05:32 |
| Cimi | exactly | 05:33 |
| troy_s | For one, you aren't relying on the fundamental skills to prevent memory leaks and good coding. | 05:33 |
| dborg__ | there is nothing bad about forking themes. and it gives you much better control about your theme | 05:33 |
| troy_s | Well theoretically with LUA you can escape the need to install further themes. | 05:33 |
| lapo | troy_s: yep, a lot, but you need to master lua scripting isted of c (which is far better) but you have to know it, and prsonally speaking I prefer to pass mockups to coders :-) | 05:33 |
| Cimi | dborg__, yes dborg | 05:34 |
| troy_s | One theme engine. | 05:34 |
| Cimi | but take every murrine themes on gnomelook | 05:34 |
| Cimi | there are 50 (i guess) | 05:34 |
| dborg__ | lapo: I try to make it dead simple :) knowing lua code will be a plus but not required | 05:34 |
| Cimi | consider them ported to lua | 05:34 |
| troy_s | What made you choose Lua dborg, as opposed to say, python? | 05:34 |
| lizardking | mhh interesting | 05:34 |
| lapo | dborg__: great, come on then finish it, now! :-) | 05:34 |
| troy_s | Port it once. | 05:35 |
| Cimi | every "themes" need to update their theme every "murrine" release | 05:35 |
| dborg__ | troy_s: lua is made to be small and fast, running the python interpreter for every gtk app would be a lot of overhead | 05:35 |
| troy_s | Yes... but with lua once you write it in lua you can throw away the rewriting process. | 05:35 |
| troy_s | dborg -- ahh. | 05:35 |
| lizardking | let's prove it cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome -z3 co gtk-engines | 05:35 |
| troy_s | Very solid reasoning. | 05:35 |
| Cimi | *every themer | 05:35 |
| troy_s | cimi -- once ported though, no need for the engine at all. | 05:36 |
| dborg__ | troy_s: did you test it already with the example theme I sent you? | 05:36 |
| troy_s | You are relying on dborg's frontend to access the cairo work. | 05:36 |
| === dborg__ is now known as dborg | ||
| troy_s | trying to finish up metacity. | 05:36 |
| Cimi | troy_s, consider i change the style of a button | 05:36 |
| troy_s | then i am migrating onto gtk | 05:36 |
| Cimi | every themer wuill have to reupdate their themes | 05:36 |
| troy_s | Cimi -- Lua replaces murrine | 05:36 |
| troy_s | The 'theme' is stored in Lua script. | 05:36 |
| lizardking | Cimi: I think you are not more able to write button afet LUA | 05:37 |
| troy_s | Which does _not_ require a recompile. | 05:37 |
| dborg | Cimi: what makes you think that themers _want_ their themes to be updated? | 05:37 |
| troy_s | That's the beauty of Lua | 05:37 |
| troy_s | the Lua engine makes all the engines obsolete | 05:37 |
| Cimi | dborg, if my new "button design" is better | 05:37 |
| troy_s | So that the coders can focus on keeping Lua tight, and the artists can write themes without worrying about it. | 05:37 |
| dborg | Cimi: if murrine would be ported to lua, you wouldn't write "themes for murrine" anymore, but "themes based on murrine" instead | 05:37 |
| Cimi | then people need to drag and drop my changes in the lua script | 05:37 |
| Cimi | am i correct? | 05:37 |
| troy_s | No. | 05:38 |
| troy_s | Your 'murrine' would be basically a set of functions in Lua. | 05:38 |
| Cimi | yes | 05:38 |
| troy_s | If you changed it, | 05:38 |
| dborg | Cimi: if they want to use it, of course. you take the features you want from any theme or write your own. | 05:38 |
| troy_s | i believe lua has inheritance doesn't it dborg? | 05:38 |
| troy_s | So you could use "parent of class is Cimi.murrine" and override where appropriate? | 05:39 |
| Cimi | i like a lot the benefits of lua | 05:39 |
| Cimi | and surely i will port it to dborg's engine | 05:39 |
| troy_s | It is _amazingly_ versatile. | 05:39 |
| Cimi | yes | 05:39 |
| troy_s | I have been perusing the code... | 05:39 |
| troy_s | One benefit is that you don't need to recompile | 05:39 |
| Cimi | it's good for few and fast mods | 05:39 |
| troy_s | which is _massive_ | 05:39 |
| Cimi | or for fast themes | 05:39 |
| dborg | troy_s: nope, the engine simply calls a function from the script. you could probably include another script, but in general I think it's better if each theme is self-contained | 05:40 |
| troy_s | It's good for all mods. The complexity is limited only by the Lua code. | 05:40 |
| Cimi | but i don't think it is better for "wide used" themes | 05:40 |
| troy_s | dborg -- you are probably right on that. | 05:40 |
| troy_s | Otherwise it is dependency hell. | 05:40 |
| troy_s | Cimi -- what makes you stake that claim? | 05:40 |
| dborg | yes | 05:40 |
| troy_s | I suppose you will need to wait and see. I intend to start using it immediately. | 05:40 |
| lapo | dborg: only one request, nice and complete documentation for poor artists on how to use it! :-) | 05:41 |
| Cimi | troy_s, me too | 05:41 |
| troy_s | the _real_ beauty of Lua will shine to end users who want | 05:41 |
| troy_s | to demonstrate | 05:41 |
| Cimi | but for "little" engines | 05:41 |
| troy_s | how quickly it will be to | 05:41 |
| troy_s | change colours. | 05:41 |
| Cimi | not an huge one as murrine | 05:41 |
| lizardking | here in cvs downloaded I see only C files not Python one | 05:41 |
| troy_s | Silly. | 05:41 |
| troy_s | Lizardking -- it is a true 'engine' | 05:41 |
| troy_s | so it is in C. | 05:41 |
| troy_s | import it, build it, | 05:41 |
| troy_s | and migrate it into the proper engine directory. | 05:42 |
| lizardking | troy_s: ok | 05:42 |
| troy_s | To an end user, the designers can write 100s of different variations and make them completely easily to change theoretically. | 05:42 |
| troy_s | No theme engine for different colours. | 05:42 |
| troy_s | etc. | 05:42 |
| dborg | currently battle for wesnoth is killing my time :/ otherwise it might already be finished | 05:43 |
| troy_s | Wesnoth is worthy ;) | 05:43 |
| dborg | yeah | 05:43 |
| troy_s | Although the timed scenarios make me ill. | 05:43 |
| lapo | dborg: apt-get remove it now! :-) | 05:43 |
| dborg | no apt-get here ;) | 05:43 |
| troy_s | what are you deving on dborg? | 05:43 |
| troy_s | Now that you have left Ubuntu. | 05:44 |
| dborg | paldo | 05:44 |
| lapo | have you got rm there? :-) | 05:44 |
| troy_s | Paldo? | 05:44 |
| dborg | forget it lapo ;) | 05:44 |
| lapo | eheh | 05:44 |
| lapo | ah is it the upkg distro? | 05:44 |
| troy_s | Never heard of it... just visited paldo dot org now. | 05:44 |
| dborg | paldo is a small unknown distribution by the vala devs. it is also based on gnome and the "just works" idea, but much more basic | 05:45 |
| dborg | yes lapo | 05:45 |
| lapo | I need to try that one | 05:45 |
| troy_s | Anyways dborg, how many of the widgets does Lua currently touch? | 05:46 |
| troy_s | I presume it is about trapping the signals for them? | 05:46 |
| dborg | troy_s: mostly, some widgets require certain tweaks. I do the widget support and example implementation at the same time, so it sometimes takes a while to get it right | 05:48 |
| dborg | troy_s: my list of missing widgets: http://pastebin.co.uk/8147 | 05:48 |
| troy_s | Ahh. | 05:48 |
| troy_s | Not too many left really. | 05:48 |
| dborg | the one with exclamation marks are important | 05:48 |
| troy_s | Frame... hrm. | 05:49 |
| dborg | yes, not much work left | 05:49 |
| troy_s | Does frame handle the pre-window drawing before metacity? | 05:49 |
| troy_s | Or is that more of a panel frame. | 05:49 |
| dborg | the frame you get around a group of options for example, but also the frame around a listview, etc | 05:49 |
| troy_s | Ahh... groupbox. | 05:50 |
| troy_s | With you. | 05:50 |
| dborg | right | 05:50 |
| troy_s | It would seem to me that Lua is quite an important engine and probably should be shipped with the basic engines package. | 05:51 |
| troy_s | Considering that it is the most versatile developed yet. | 05:51 |
| Cimi | yes | 05:51 |
| Cimi | i agree | 05:51 |
| Cimi | gnome needs good engines | 05:51 |
| Cimi | and good style | 05:51 |
| troy_s | It needs _one_ good engine. | 05:51 |
| lapo | isn't it in gnome-engines already? | 05:51 |
| troy_s | With a good scripting backend. | 05:51 |
| Cimi | troy_s, yes | 05:52 |
| Cimi | dborg, how slow is it? | 05:52 |
| troy_s | The reality is that if every theme engine writer jumped onto it, it would be very robust. | 05:52 |
| troy_s | As it would get the little bits filled in quickly. | 05:52 |
| lapo | very true | 05:52 |
| troy_s | Cimi -- depends on the coding practices. | 05:53 |
| troy_s | Cimi -- Lua is pretty blazingly fast as a scripting engine. | 05:53 |
| troy_s | So the overhead is minimal. | 05:53 |
| troy_s | But if you waste cycles with poor coding practices, I am quite certain that it can be made to grind to a halt. | 05:53 |
| troy_s | dborg might have some benches on a comparable type of look against look thing. | 05:54 |
| Cimi | i'm quite good in optimizing code | 05:54 |
| Cimi | the problem is that not all of us are good in it | 05:54 |
| Cimi | btw this is not our problem | 05:55 |
| lapo | Cimi: ok know you have no excuses to jump on the lua engin bandwagon then :-) | 05:55 |
| lapo | s/know/now/ | 05:55 |
| Cimi | the few themes that will be shipped to gnome 2.18-20 have to be fast | 05:55 |
| dborg | you can't really do much wrong with your scripting, the slowness will mostly be caused by the type of cairo drawing ops you use. in comparison a lua theme is a little slower, but still way faster than a pixmap theme | 05:55 |
| Cimi | dborg, ok very fine! | 05:56 |
| dborg | if you want a blazingly fast theme, you shouldn't even use cairo ;) | 05:56 |
| troy_s | I think the era of targetting the lowest common denominator of computing is getting rather old. | 05:56 |
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| lapo | dborg: or work on cairo to make it draw things faster :-) | 05:56 |
| troy_s | Considering that a 3000 class amd 32 bit chip is less than 30 dollars these days. | 05:56 |
| troy_s | +1 to the latter. | 05:56 |
| Cimi | troy_s, anyway we MUST do good code | 05:57 |
| troy_s | Yes. | 05:57 |
| troy_s | Good code is always a must. | 05:57 |
| Cimi | and not code bad just because it's not important | 05:57 |
| troy_s | Cimi -- you should use your excellent skills to dive into Lua. | 05:57 |
| troy_s | And help dborg finish it. | 05:57 |
| dborg | lapo: it doesn't matter, anti aliased smooth corners and complex translucent gradients will always be slower than drawing straight pixels with gdk :) | 05:57 |
| Cimi | i will take a look next weeks | 05:58 |
| Cimi | anyway murrine will never stop to exist until i find a solution with lua scripts | 05:58 |
| Cimi | i will port murrine on lua | 05:58 |
| lapo | dborg: lua engine sounds coo, but please tell me that you are still working on scrathpad | 05:59 |
| Cimi | but this will not stop murrine development | 05:59 |
| lapo | Scratchpad even | 05:59 |
| dborg | lapo: sure, in fact I'm itching to work on it again. but I'm forcing myself to finish the lua engine first... since it's almost done | 06:00 |
| troy_s | Force harder Wesnoth guy ;) | 06:01 |
| lapo | dborg: wesnoth really need to get removed by your machine eh :-) | 06:01 |
| lapo | dborg: you should eventually propose scratchpad for inclusion in gnome, I really think it's smarter, meaner, better then gedit | 06:03 |
| dborg | lapo: but it is totally non-conformist :) I don't think it would fit in well yet. it's also very developer oriented (then again, gedit isn't exactly plain anymore either) | 06:05 |
| lapo | dborg: that's the cool part | 06:06 |
| dborg | also, gedit is _much_ more polished and stable, especially with regards to internationalisation and file handling | 06:06 |
| lapo | dborg: yep that's a good point, but you can cure it, no? :-) | 06:06 |
| dborg | it's not my priority :) first and foremost I want to make an editor that works great for 95% of all users, instead of focusing too much on the remaining 5%. gedit is much more conservative and that's probably a good thing for a default editor that simply may not fail | 06:08 |
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| troy_s | grr lua is disabled by default in autogen.sh | 06:19 |
| troy_s | irritating. | 06:19 |
| dborg | sure | 06:20 |
| troy_s | in theory, is animation possible with the engine?" | 06:20 |
| dborg | yes, but it would be hacky just like in clearlooks, etc. I will probably not implement it before a "clean" method is found | 06:22 |
| troy_s | dborg -- that will require the gnome architects to implement it at the api level i take it? | 06:28 |
| troy_s | dborg -- a Lua wiki on your site might help for designers to dump their experiences in the form of documentation :) | 06:29 |
| troy_s | save you a little work. | 06:30 |
| dborg | troy_s: that's a good idea, but it should probably be somewhere on live.gnome.org | 06:31 |
| dborg | if you want to start one, I would be very grateful ;) just keep in mind that things can still change drastically (but I hope not) | 06:31 |
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