[04:36] <newz2000> I just sent a message to the list and would love your feedback on it
[05:06] <troy_s> newz2000 who were you talking to?
[05:06] <newz2000> anyone in particular
[05:07] <newz2000> no one in particular, I mean
[05:14] <troy_s> Quite brilliant really newz -- but it will require the support of many.
[05:15] <newz2000> yeah
[05:15] <newz2000> maybe if there's a little positive feedback from the team I'll post a msg to the forums and also update the bug to get more people involved
[05:26] <troy_s> I think the trick is to figure out the process to getting something into the repos.
[05:26] <troy_s> main would be lovely, but who knows.
[05:34] <newz2000> sorry for the delayed response, I'm starting to drift off at my keyboard... better call it a night. g'night
[10:40] <lapo> yo
[03:59] <Cimi> ciao
[04:00] <Cimi> here's Cimi
[04:01] <lizardking> hello
[04:01] <lizardking> here's lizardking
[04:01] <lizardking> ;)
[04:07] <lapo> ciao cimi
[04:07] <lapo> ciao lizardking
[04:08] <lapo> too many italians :-)
[04:13] <lizardking> ehhe
[04:13] <lizardking> ja italian too
[04:14] <andreasn> the Italian Conspiracy, eh? ;)
[04:15] <andreasn> slowly taking over everything artwork related in GNOME...
[04:17] <Cimi> andreasn, do you like http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9100/schermataem7.jpg
[04:18] <Cimi> ubuntustudio theme work in progress
[04:18] <TheSheep> murrine black?
[04:18] <Cimi> new version
[04:18] <andreasn> looks nice
[04:19] <Cimi> with selectable hilight
[04:19] <andreasn> black themes can be hard, so I think you've done a good job on this one
[04:19] <Cimi> thank you
[04:19] <Cimi> www.ubuntustudio.com
[04:20] <lapo> looks nice
[04:20] <andreasn> reminds me that I better make that inkscape set usable
[04:21] <TheSheep> Cimi: what icon theme is that?
[04:21] <Cimi> of the screenshot?
[04:21] <TheSheep> Cimi: yes
[04:21] <TheSheep> Cimi: just curious
[04:21] <Cimi> osx :(
[04:22] <TheSheep> ah
[04:22] <TheSheep> right, should have recognized the trash :)
[04:22] <lizardking> try to use Tango-Noir, as in ubuntustudio wiki says
[04:24] <lizardking> andreasn: Ahah the italian Consipracy is cool
[04:24] <andreasn> think about it
[04:24] <lizardking> I think as in fashion italian people have some good innate stuff for artwork
[04:25] <andreasn> Lapo, Ulisse, Luca Ferretti
[04:25] <andreasn> and the list goes on.... ;)
[04:25] <andreasn> and Cimi and yourself
[04:25] <andreasn> right?
[04:26] <Cimi> no
[04:26] <Cimi> lizardking sucks on themes
[04:26] <Cimi> :P
[04:26] <TheSheep> that's because Italia is sunny -- you have an advantage while picking the colors ;)
[04:26] <lizardking> yes Cimi you are right
[04:26] <lizardking> I'm an improvvisate artworker, i'm an engineering
[04:27] <lizardking> but I can give good adivce to who make themes ;) (bad english)
[04:29] <Cimi> lizardking, ;)
[04:30] <lizardking> Cimi: yes?
[04:30] <Cimi> just for advices/suggestions :P
[04:30] <lizardking> yep!
[04:31] <lizardking> but I like artwork, I can give good suggestions!
[04:32] <TheSheep> lizardking: any good tutorial for beginners at gtk theming?
[04:34] <lizardking> TheSheep: You should visit the official Gnome theming tutorial
[04:34] <lizardking> TheSheep: In my opinion is not good a lot
[04:35] <lizardking> Cimi: Trevio is packaging you murrine-configurator
[04:35] <TheSheep> lizardking: do you have any experience with xfce-specific parts of theme?
[04:35] <lizardking> Cimi: Trevino wanto to send the debian/ dir of the package
[04:35] <lizardking> TheSheep: No, I don't use Xfce and I have any skills wit this features
[04:38] <TheSheep> lizardking: found the tutorial, thanks a lot
[04:39] <lizardking> TheSheep: ok, I hope my little help could improve your Skills ;)
[04:45] <Cimi> http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1687/screenab7.png
[04:46] <Cimi> see ubuntustudio look
[04:47] <lapo> Cimi: I like the bg image image what's that?
[04:47] <TheSheep> Cimi: woudn't a graphics artist prefer a solid background? :)
[04:48] <Cimi> TheSheep, i agree
[04:48] <Cimi> but it is the only bg i have with selectable colors :D
[04:48] <TheSheep> Cimi: maybe a grid...
[04:48] <lapo> Cimi: apt-get install gnome-backgrounds
[04:50] <lizardking> look fine this bg
[04:50] <Cimi> ok stars bg rocks
[04:50] <lapo> Cimi: andreasn's
[04:52] <lizardking>  sudo aptitude install gnome-backgrounds ;)
[04:52] <lapo> lizardking: I'm oldschool :-)
[04:52] <Cimi> sudo pacman -S gnome-backgrounds
[04:52] <Cimi> archlinux reigns!
[04:52] <lizardking> pacman, which is the arcade game? ;) hihihi
[05:01] <Trevinho> Cimi: hi
[05:01] <lizardking> Trevinho: hi
[05:02] <lizardking> Cimi: here is trevi
[05:02] <Trevinho> [ITA]  siamo una buona percentuale di italiani qui mi pare... :P [/ITA] 
[05:02] <Cimi> hi Trevinho
[05:02] <Trevinho> ;)
[05:03] <lizardking> yes we are almost italian
[05:03] <Trevinho> Cimi: did you  receive the debian folder?
[05:03] <Cimi> nothing yet
[05:04] <Cimi> alice sucks
[05:05] <lapo> Cimi: gmail
[05:05] <Trevinho> alice sucks... lol... said in english it sounds better :D
[05:06] <Cimi> :D
[05:08] <lizardking> Aahaahh loool
[05:08] <lizardking> Alice is my girlfriend, trevi!  :( (joke)
[05:12] <troy_s> Has anyone been using the LUA engine yet?
[05:14] <lizardking> troy_s: What is the LUA engine?
[05:16] <lizardking> http://dborg.wordpress.com/tag/gnome/ is this?
[05:16] <lizardking> The color are quite ugly : P
[05:17] <lizardking> mhh it seems a mix of ubuntulooks,clearlooks, and murrine glassy
[05:19] <troy_s> Lua pretty much puts an end to engine writing.
[05:19] <troy_s> It is a LUA scripted frontend with a Cairo drawing backend.
[05:19] <troy_s> It doesn't do anything other than provide a scripting interface
[05:19] <troy_s> So 'engines' are basically obsolete.
[05:19] <troy_s> dborg wrote it -- very clever.
[05:19] <troy_s> The colours have nothing to do with it...
[05:20] <troy_s> clearlooks / murrine / etc are all hard coded engines -- not versatile.  Lua will be able to do just about anything.
[05:24] <lapo> troy_s: sounds cool
[05:25] <lapo> troy_s: well it let's you write "engines" with higher level programming language tho :-)
[05:25] <lizardking> i understand now
[05:26] <lizardking> I did not read the post
[05:26] <lapo> or even it let's you script "engines" :-)
[05:26] <lizardking> Before you said "LUA Engines" I think that was a new one
[05:29] <troy_s> Indeed.
[05:29] <troy_s> Well technically it _is_ an engine.
[05:29] <troy_s> But it has the potential to be an engine to end all engines.
[05:29] <troy_s> In that you do not need to recompile the 'engine' to see the effects of the work.
[05:29] <troy_s> Quite brilliant really.
[05:30] <lapo> yes it is
[05:30] <Cimi> 2 problems
[05:30] <lapo> btw It solves the problem of user installing themes, not artists doing them
[05:31] <Cimi> 1) gtkrc have to get updated "engines"
[05:31] <troy_s> 1) ???
[05:31] <Cimi> for example if someone port murrine to LUA
[05:31] <lapo> Cimi: that lua engine is (well will be) everything you need
[05:32] <Cimi> then every themes that use murrine  ported to lua need to reupdate their gtkrc every time i make a release
[05:32] <Cimi> and this is absolutely _bad_
[05:32] <lapo> Cimi: nope, that engines do all the drawing stuff via scripting so you won't need murrine at all
[05:32] <troy_s> Actually no.
[05:32] <troy_s> You completely misunderstand
[05:32] <troy_s> It is far superior than engine writing
[05:32] <dborg__> cimi is still thinking about lots of people customising a base engine. of course with lua scripts themes will always be complete forks, just like metacity themes
[05:33] <Cimi> exactly
[05:33] <troy_s> For one, you aren't relying on the fundamental skills to prevent memory leaks and good coding.
[05:33] <dborg__> there is nothing bad about forking themes. and it gives you much better control about your theme
[05:33] <troy_s> Well theoretically with LUA you can escape the need to install further themes.
[05:33] <lapo> troy_s: yep, a lot, but you need to master lua scripting isted of c (which is far better) but you have to know it, and prsonally speaking I prefer to pass mockups to coders :-)
[05:34] <Cimi> dborg__, yes dborg
[05:34] <troy_s> One theme engine.
[05:34] <Cimi> but take every murrine themes on gnomelook
[05:34] <Cimi> there are 50 (i guess)
[05:34] <dborg__> lapo: I try to make it dead simple :) knowing lua code will be a plus but not required
[05:34] <Cimi> consider them ported to lua
[05:34] <troy_s> What made you choose Lua dborg, as opposed to say, python?
[05:34] <lizardking> mhh interesting
[05:34] <lapo> dborg__: great, come on then finish it, now! :-)
[05:35] <troy_s> Port it once.
[05:35] <Cimi> every "themes" need to update their theme every "murrine" release
[05:35] <dborg__> troy_s: lua is made to be small and fast, running the python interpreter for every gtk app would be a lot of overhead
[05:35] <troy_s> Yes... but with lua once you write it in lua you can throw away the rewriting process.
[05:35] <troy_s> dborg -- ahh.
[05:35] <lizardking> let's prove it cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome -z3 co gtk-engines
[05:35] <troy_s> Very solid reasoning.
[05:35] <Cimi> *every themer
[05:36] <troy_s> cimi -- once ported though, no need for the engine at all.
[05:36] <dborg__> troy_s: did you test it already with the example theme I sent you?
[05:36] <troy_s> You are relying on dborg's frontend to access the cairo work.
[05:36] <troy_s> trying to finish up metacity.
[05:36] <Cimi> troy_s, consider i change the style of a button
[05:36] <troy_s> then i am migrating onto gtk
[05:36] <Cimi> every themer wuill have to reupdate their themes
[05:36] <troy_s> Cimi -- Lua replaces murrine
[05:36] <troy_s> The 'theme' is stored in Lua script.
[05:37] <lizardking> Cimi: I think you are not more able to write button afet LUA
[05:37] <troy_s> Which does _not_ require a recompile.
[05:37] <dborg> Cimi: what makes you think that themers _want_ their themes to be updated?
[05:37] <troy_s> That's the beauty of Lua
[05:37] <troy_s> the Lua engine makes all the engines obsolete
[05:37] <Cimi> dborg, if my new "button design" is better
[05:37] <troy_s> So that the coders can focus on keeping Lua tight, and the artists can write themes without worrying about it.
[05:37] <dborg> Cimi: if murrine would be ported to lua, you wouldn't write "themes for murrine" anymore, but "themes based on murrine" instead
[05:37] <Cimi> then people need to drag and drop my changes in the lua script
[05:37] <Cimi> am i correct?
[05:38] <troy_s> No.
[05:38] <troy_s> Your 'murrine' would be basically a set of functions in Lua.
[05:38] <Cimi> yes
[05:38] <troy_s> If you changed it,
[05:38] <dborg> Cimi: if they want to use it, of course. you take the features you want from any theme or write your own.
[05:38] <troy_s> i believe lua has inheritance doesn't it dborg?
[05:39] <troy_s> So you could use "parent of class is Cimi.murrine" and override where appropriate?
[05:39] <Cimi> i like a lot the benefits of lua
[05:39] <Cimi> and surely i will port it to dborg's engine
[05:39] <troy_s> It is _amazingly_ versatile.
[05:39] <Cimi> yes
[05:39] <troy_s> I have been perusing the code...
[05:39] <troy_s> One benefit is that you don't need to recompile
[05:39] <Cimi> it's good for few and fast mods
[05:39] <troy_s> which is _massive_
[05:39] <Cimi> or for fast themes
[05:40] <dborg> troy_s: nope, the engine simply calls a function from the script. you could probably include another script, but in general I think it's better if each theme is self-contained
[05:40] <troy_s> It's good for all mods.  The complexity is limited only by the Lua code.
[05:40] <Cimi> but i don't think it is better for "wide used" themes
[05:40] <troy_s> dborg -- you are probably right on that.
[05:40] <troy_s> Otherwise it is dependency hell.
[05:40] <troy_s> Cimi -- what makes you stake that claim?
[05:40] <dborg> yes
[05:40] <troy_s> I suppose you will need to wait and see.  I intend to start using it immediately.
[05:41] <lapo> dborg: only one request, nice and complete documentation for poor artists on how to use it! :-)
[05:41] <Cimi> troy_s, me too
[05:41] <troy_s> the _real_ beauty of Lua will shine to end users who want
[05:41] <troy_s> to demonstrate
[05:41] <Cimi> but for "little" engines
[05:41] <troy_s> how quickly it will be to
[05:41] <troy_s> change colours.
[05:41] <Cimi> not an huge one as murrine
[05:41] <lizardking> here in cvs downloaded I see only C files not Python one
[05:41] <troy_s> Silly.
[05:41] <troy_s> Lizardking -- it is a true 'engine'
[05:41] <troy_s> so it is in C.
[05:41] <troy_s> import it, build it,
[05:42] <troy_s> and migrate it into the proper engine directory.
[05:42] <lizardking> troy_s: ok
[05:42] <troy_s> To an end user, the designers can write 100s of different variations and make them completely easily to change theoretically.
[05:42] <troy_s> No theme engine for different colours.
[05:42] <troy_s> etc.
[05:43] <dborg> currently battle for wesnoth is killing my time :/ otherwise it might already be finished
[05:43] <troy_s> Wesnoth is worthy ;)
[05:43] <dborg> yeah
[05:43] <troy_s> Although the timed scenarios make me ill.
[05:43] <lapo> dborg: apt-get remove it now! :-)
[05:43] <dborg> no apt-get here ;)
[05:43] <troy_s> what are you deving on dborg?
[05:44] <troy_s> Now that you have left Ubuntu.
[05:44] <dborg> paldo
[05:44] <lapo> have you got rm there? :-)
[05:44] <troy_s> Paldo?
[05:44] <dborg> forget it lapo ;)
[05:44] <lapo> eheh
[05:44] <lapo> ah is it the upkg distro?
[05:44] <troy_s> Never heard of it... just visited paldo dot org now.
[05:45] <dborg> paldo is a small unknown distribution by the vala devs. it is also based on gnome and the "just works" idea, but much more basic
[05:45] <dborg> yes lapo
[05:45] <lapo> I need to try that one
[05:46] <troy_s> Anyways dborg, how many of the widgets does Lua currently touch?
[05:46] <troy_s> I presume it is about trapping the signals for them?
[05:48] <dborg> troy_s: mostly, some widgets require certain tweaks. I do the widget support and example implementation at the same time, so it sometimes takes a while to get it right
[05:48] <dborg> troy_s: my list of missing widgets: http://pastebin.co.uk/8147
[05:48] <troy_s> Ahh.
[05:48] <troy_s> Not too many left really.
[05:48] <dborg> the one with exclamation marks are important
[05:49] <troy_s> Frame... hrm.
[05:49] <dborg> yes, not much work left
[05:49] <troy_s> Does frame handle the pre-window drawing before metacity?
[05:49] <troy_s> Or is that more of a panel frame.
[05:49] <dborg> the frame you get around a group of options for example, but also the frame around a listview, etc
[05:50] <troy_s> Ahh... groupbox.
[05:50] <troy_s> With you.
[05:50] <dborg> right
[05:51] <troy_s> It would seem to me that Lua is quite an important engine and probably should be shipped with the basic engines package.
[05:51] <troy_s> Considering that it is the most versatile developed yet.
[05:51] <Cimi> yes
[05:51] <Cimi> i agree
[05:51] <Cimi> gnome needs good engines
[05:51] <Cimi> and good style
[05:51] <troy_s> It needs _one_ good engine.
[05:51] <lapo> isn't it in gnome-engines already?
[05:51] <troy_s> With a good scripting backend.
[05:52] <Cimi> troy_s, yes
[05:52] <Cimi> dborg, how slow is it?
[05:52] <troy_s> The reality is that if every theme engine writer jumped onto it, it would be very robust.
[05:52] <troy_s> As it would get the little bits filled in quickly.
[05:52] <lapo> very true
[05:53] <troy_s> Cimi -- depends on the coding practices.
[05:53] <troy_s> Cimi -- Lua is pretty blazingly fast as a scripting engine.
[05:53] <troy_s> So the overhead is minimal.
[05:53] <troy_s> But if you waste cycles with poor coding practices, I am quite certain that it can be made to grind to a halt.
[05:54] <troy_s> dborg might have some benches on a comparable type of look against look thing.
[05:54] <Cimi> i'm quite good in optimizing code
[05:54] <Cimi> the problem is that not all of us are good in it
[05:55] <Cimi> btw this is not our problem
[05:55] <lapo> Cimi: ok know you have no excuses to jump on the lua engin bandwagon then :-)
[05:55] <lapo> s/know/now/
[05:55] <Cimi> the few themes that will be shipped to gnome 2.18-20 have to be fast
[05:55] <dborg> you can't really do much wrong with your scripting, the slowness will mostly be caused by the type of cairo drawing ops you use. in comparison a lua theme is a little slower, but still way faster than a pixmap theme
[05:56] <Cimi> dborg, ok very fine!
[05:56] <dborg> if you want a blazingly fast theme, you shouldn't even use cairo ;)
[05:56] <troy_s> I think the era of targetting the lowest common denominator of computing is getting rather old.
[05:56] <lapo> dborg: or work on cairo to make it draw things faster :-)
[05:56] <troy_s> Considering that a 3000 class amd 32 bit chip is less than 30 dollars these days.
[05:56] <troy_s> +1 to the latter.
[05:57] <Cimi> troy_s, anyway we MUST do good code
[05:57] <troy_s> Yes.
[05:57] <troy_s> Good code is always a must.
[05:57] <Cimi> and not code bad just because it's not important
[05:57] <troy_s> Cimi -- you should use your excellent skills to dive into Lua.
[05:57] <troy_s> And help dborg finish it.
[05:57] <dborg> lapo: it doesn't matter, anti aliased smooth corners and complex translucent gradients will always be slower than drawing straight pixels with gdk :)
[05:58] <Cimi> i will take a look next weeks
[05:58] <Cimi> anyway murrine will never stop to exist until i find a solution with lua scripts
[05:58] <Cimi> i will port murrine on lua
[05:59] <lapo> dborg: lua engine sounds coo, but please tell me that you are still working on scrathpad
[05:59] <Cimi> but this will not stop murrine development
[05:59] <lapo> Scratchpad even
[06:00] <dborg> lapo: sure, in fact I'm itching to work on it again. but I'm forcing myself to finish the lua engine first... since it's almost done
[06:01] <troy_s> Force harder Wesnoth guy ;)
[06:01] <lapo> dborg: wesnoth really need to get removed by your machine eh :-)
[06:03] <lapo> dborg: you should eventually propose scratchpad for inclusion in gnome, I really think it's smarter, meaner, better then gedit
[06:05] <dborg> lapo: but it is totally non-conformist :) I don't think it would fit in well yet. it's also very developer oriented (then again, gedit isn't exactly plain anymore either)
[06:06] <lapo> dborg: that's the cool part
[06:06] <dborg> also, gedit is _much_ more polished and stable, especially with regards to internationalisation and file handling
[06:06] <lapo> dborg: yep that's a good point, but you can cure it, no? :-)
[06:08] <dborg> it's not my priority :) first and foremost I want to make an editor that works great for 95% of all users, instead of focusing too much on the remaining 5%. gedit is much more conservative and that's probably a good thing for a default editor that simply may not fail
[06:19] <troy_s> grr lua is disabled by default in autogen.sh
[06:19] <troy_s> irritating.
[06:20] <dborg> sure
[06:20] <troy_s> in theory, is animation possible with the engine?"
[06:22] <dborg> yes, but it would be hacky just like in clearlooks, etc. I will probably not implement it before a "clean" method is found
[06:28] <troy_s> dborg -- that will require the gnome architects to implement it at the api level i take it?
[06:29] <troy_s> dborg -- a Lua wiki on your site might help for designers to dump their experiences in the form of documentation :)
[06:30] <troy_s> save you a little work.
[06:31] <dborg> troy_s: that's a good idea, but it should probably be somewhere on live.gnome.org
[06:31] <dborg> if you want to start one, I would be very grateful ;) just keep in mind that things can still change drastically (but I hope not)