=== Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === _MMA_ [n=mma@cpe-071-070-203-016.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Madpilot [n=brian@S01060011d847d688.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === troy_s [n=aphorism@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === klepas [n=klepas@202-161-19-16.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [04:36] I just sent a message to the list and would love your feedback on it === klepas [n=klepas@202-161-19-16.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:06] newz2000 who were you talking to? [05:06] anyone in particular [05:07] no one in particular, I mean [05:14] Quite brilliant really newz -- but it will require the support of many. [05:15] yeah [05:15] maybe if there's a little positive feedback from the team I'll post a msg to the forums and also update the bug to get more people involved [05:26] I think the trick is to figure out the process to getting something into the repos. [05:26] main would be lovely, but who knows. [05:34] sorry for the delayed response, I'm starting to drift off at my keyboard... better call it a night. g'night === Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log === ubuntulog [i=ubuntulo@ubuntu/bot/ubuntulog] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Topic for #ubuntu-artwork: Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Happy New Year to all! === Topic (#ubuntu-artwork): set by troy_s at Mon Jan 1 04:00:15 2007 === klepas [n=klepas@60-242-104-119.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mhb_ [n=mhb@64.73.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lapo [n=lapo@host102-254-static.189-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [10:40] yo === KaiL [n=KaiL@p548F63EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-151-201-27-176.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === coz_ [n=coz_@pool-151-201-27-176.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"] === dborg__ [n=daniel@e182048006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mhb_ [n=mhb@64.73.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === mhb_ [n=mhb@64.73.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === lizardking [n=lizardki@host223-129-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === Cimi [n=Cimi@host131-182-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [03:59] ciao [04:00] here's Cimi [04:01] hello [04:01] here's lizardking [04:01] ;) [04:07] ciao cimi [04:07] ciao lizardking [04:08] too many italians :-) [04:13] ehhe [04:13] ja italian too [04:14] the Italian Conspiracy, eh? ;) [04:15] slowly taking over everything artwork related in GNOME... === TheSheep knew that ridicolously blue sky looked suspicious [04:17] andreasn, do you like http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9100/schermataem7.jpg [04:18] ubuntustudio theme work in progress [04:18] murrine black? [04:18] new version [04:18] looks nice [04:19] with selectable hilight [04:19] black themes can be hard, so I think you've done a good job on this one [04:19] thank you [04:19] www.ubuntustudio.com [04:20] looks nice [04:20] reminds me that I better make that inkscape set usable [04:21] Cimi: what icon theme is that? [04:21] of the screenshot? [04:21] Cimi: yes [04:21] Cimi: just curious [04:21] osx :( [04:22] ah [04:22] right, should have recognized the trash :) [04:22] try to use Tango-Noir, as in ubuntustudio wiki says [04:24] andreasn: Ahah the italian Consipracy is cool [04:24] think about it [04:24] I think as in fashion italian people have some good innate stuff for artwork [04:25] Lapo, Ulisse, Luca Ferretti [04:25] and the list goes on.... ;) [04:25] and Cimi and yourself [04:25] right? [04:26] no [04:26] lizardking sucks on themes [04:26] :P [04:26] that's because Italia is sunny -- you have an advantage while picking the colors ;) [04:26] yes Cimi you are right [04:26] I'm an improvvisate artworker, i'm an engineering [04:27] but I can give good adivce to who make themes ;) (bad english) [04:29] lizardking, ;) [04:30] Cimi: yes? [04:30] just for advices/suggestions :P [04:30] yep! [04:31] but I like artwork, I can give good suggestions! [04:32] lizardking: any good tutorial for beginners at gtk theming? [04:34] TheSheep: You should visit the official Gnome theming tutorial [04:34] TheSheep: In my opinion is not good a lot [04:35] Cimi: Trevio is packaging you murrine-configurator [04:35] lizardking: do you have any experience with xfce-specific parts of theme? [04:35] Cimi: Trevino wanto to send the debian/ dir of the package [04:35] TheSheep: No, I don't use Xfce and I have any skills wit this features [04:38] lizardking: found the tutorial, thanks a lot [04:39] TheSheep: ok, I hope my little help could improve your Skills ;) [04:45] http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1687/screenab7.png [04:46] see ubuntustudio look [04:47] Cimi: I like the bg image image what's that? [04:47] Cimi: woudn't a graphics artist prefer a solid background? :) [04:48] TheSheep, i agree [04:48] but it is the only bg i have with selectable colors :D [04:48] Cimi: maybe a grid... [04:48] Cimi: apt-get install gnome-backgrounds [04:50] look fine this bg [04:50] ok stars bg rocks [04:50] Cimi: andreasn's [04:52] sudo aptitude install gnome-backgrounds ;) [04:52] lizardking: I'm oldschool :-) [04:52] sudo pacman -S gnome-backgrounds [04:52] archlinux reigns! [04:52] pacman, which is the arcade game? ;) hihihi === Trevinho [n=Trevi@host207-165-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:01] Cimi: hi [05:01] Trevinho: hi [05:02] Cimi: here is trevi [05:02] [ITA] siamo una buona percentuale di italiani qui mi pare... :P [/ITA] [05:02] hi Trevinho [05:02] ;) [05:03] yes we are almost italian [05:03] Cimi: did you receive the debian folder? [05:03] nothing yet [05:04] alice sucks [05:05] Cimi: gmail [05:05] alice sucks... lol... said in english it sounds better :D [05:06] :D [05:08] Aahaahh loool [05:08] Alice is my girlfriend, trevi! :( (joke) [05:12] Has anyone been using the LUA engine yet? [05:14] troy_s: What is the LUA engine? [05:16] http://dborg.wordpress.com/tag/gnome/ is this? [05:16] The color are quite ugly : P [05:17] mhh it seems a mix of ubuntulooks,clearlooks, and murrine glassy [05:19] Lua pretty much puts an end to engine writing. [05:19] It is a LUA scripted frontend with a Cairo drawing backend. [05:19] It doesn't do anything other than provide a scripting interface [05:19] So 'engines' are basically obsolete. [05:19] dborg wrote it -- very clever. [05:19] The colours have nothing to do with it... [05:20] clearlooks / murrine / etc are all hard coded engines -- not versatile. Lua will be able to do just about anything. [05:24] troy_s: sounds cool [05:25] troy_s: well it let's you write "engines" with higher level programming language tho :-) [05:25] i understand now [05:26] I did not read the post [05:26] or even it let's you script "engines" :-) [05:26] Before you said "LUA Engines" I think that was a new one [05:29] Indeed. [05:29] Well technically it _is_ an engine. [05:29] But it has the potential to be an engine to end all engines. [05:29] In that you do not need to recompile the 'engine' to see the effects of the work. [05:29] Quite brilliant really. [05:30] yes it is [05:30] 2 problems [05:30] btw It solves the problem of user installing themes, not artists doing them [05:31] 1) gtkrc have to get updated "engines" [05:31] 1) ??? [05:31] for example if someone port murrine to LUA [05:31] Cimi: that lua engine is (well will be) everything you need [05:32] then every themes that use murrine ported to lua need to reupdate their gtkrc every time i make a release [05:32] and this is absolutely _bad_ [05:32] Cimi: nope, that engines do all the drawing stuff via scripting so you won't need murrine at all [05:32] Actually no. [05:32] You completely misunderstand [05:32] It is far superior than engine writing [05:32] cimi is still thinking about lots of people customising a base engine. of course with lua scripts themes will always be complete forks, just like metacity themes [05:33] exactly [05:33] For one, you aren't relying on the fundamental skills to prevent memory leaks and good coding. [05:33] there is nothing bad about forking themes. and it gives you much better control about your theme [05:33] Well theoretically with LUA you can escape the need to install further themes. [05:33] troy_s: yep, a lot, but you need to master lua scripting isted of c (which is far better) but you have to know it, and prsonally speaking I prefer to pass mockups to coders :-) [05:34] dborg__, yes dborg [05:34] One theme engine. [05:34] but take every murrine themes on gnomelook [05:34] there are 50 (i guess) [05:34] lapo: I try to make it dead simple :) knowing lua code will be a plus but not required [05:34] consider them ported to lua [05:34] What made you choose Lua dborg, as opposed to say, python? [05:34] mhh interesting [05:34] dborg__: great, come on then finish it, now! :-) [05:35] Port it once. [05:35] every "themes" need to update their theme every "murrine" release [05:35] troy_s: lua is made to be small and fast, running the python interpreter for every gtk app would be a lot of overhead [05:35] Yes... but with lua once you write it in lua you can throw away the rewriting process. [05:35] dborg -- ahh. [05:35] let's prove it cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome -z3 co gtk-engines [05:35] Very solid reasoning. [05:35] *every themer [05:36] cimi -- once ported though, no need for the engine at all. [05:36] troy_s: did you test it already with the example theme I sent you? [05:36] You are relying on dborg's frontend to access the cairo work. === dborg__ is now known as dborg [05:36] trying to finish up metacity. [05:36] troy_s, consider i change the style of a button [05:36] then i am migrating onto gtk [05:36] every themer wuill have to reupdate their themes [05:36] Cimi -- Lua replaces murrine [05:36] The 'theme' is stored in Lua script. [05:37] Cimi: I think you are not more able to write button afet LUA [05:37] Which does _not_ require a recompile. [05:37] Cimi: what makes you think that themers _want_ their themes to be updated? [05:37] That's the beauty of Lua [05:37] the Lua engine makes all the engines obsolete [05:37] dborg, if my new "button design" is better [05:37] So that the coders can focus on keeping Lua tight, and the artists can write themes without worrying about it. [05:37] Cimi: if murrine would be ported to lua, you wouldn't write "themes for murrine" anymore, but "themes based on murrine" instead [05:37] then people need to drag and drop my changes in the lua script [05:37] am i correct? [05:38] No. [05:38] Your 'murrine' would be basically a set of functions in Lua. [05:38] yes [05:38] If you changed it, [05:38] Cimi: if they want to use it, of course. you take the features you want from any theme or write your own. [05:38] i believe lua has inheritance doesn't it dborg? [05:39] So you could use "parent of class is Cimi.murrine" and override where appropriate? [05:39] i like a lot the benefits of lua [05:39] and surely i will port it to dborg's engine [05:39] It is _amazingly_ versatile. [05:39] yes [05:39] I have been perusing the code... [05:39] One benefit is that you don't need to recompile [05:39] it's good for few and fast mods [05:39] which is _massive_ [05:39] or for fast themes [05:40] troy_s: nope, the engine simply calls a function from the script. you could probably include another script, but in general I think it's better if each theme is self-contained [05:40] It's good for all mods. The complexity is limited only by the Lua code. [05:40] but i don't think it is better for "wide used" themes [05:40] dborg -- you are probably right on that. [05:40] Otherwise it is dependency hell. [05:40] Cimi -- what makes you stake that claim? [05:40] yes [05:40] I suppose you will need to wait and see. I intend to start using it immediately. [05:41] dborg: only one request, nice and complete documentation for poor artists on how to use it! :-) [05:41] troy_s, me too [05:41] the _real_ beauty of Lua will shine to end users who want [05:41] to demonstrate [05:41] but for "little" engines [05:41] how quickly it will be to [05:41] change colours. [05:41] not an huge one as murrine [05:41] here in cvs downloaded I see only C files not Python one [05:41] Silly. [05:41] Lizardking -- it is a true 'engine' [05:41] so it is in C. [05:41] import it, build it, [05:42] and migrate it into the proper engine directory. [05:42] troy_s: ok [05:42] To an end user, the designers can write 100s of different variations and make them completely easily to change theoretically. [05:42] No theme engine for different colours. [05:42] etc. [05:43] currently battle for wesnoth is killing my time :/ otherwise it might already be finished [05:43] Wesnoth is worthy ;) [05:43] yeah [05:43] Although the timed scenarios make me ill. [05:43] dborg: apt-get remove it now! :-) [05:43] no apt-get here ;) [05:43] what are you deving on dborg? [05:44] Now that you have left Ubuntu. [05:44] paldo [05:44] have you got rm there? :-) [05:44] Paldo? [05:44] forget it lapo ;) [05:44] eheh [05:44] ah is it the upkg distro? [05:44] Never heard of it... just visited paldo dot org now. [05:45] paldo is a small unknown distribution by the vala devs. it is also based on gnome and the "just works" idea, but much more basic [05:45] yes lapo [05:45] I need to try that one [05:46] Anyways dborg, how many of the widgets does Lua currently touch? [05:46] I presume it is about trapping the signals for them? [05:48] troy_s: mostly, some widgets require certain tweaks. I do the widget support and example implementation at the same time, so it sometimes takes a while to get it right [05:48] troy_s: my list of missing widgets: http://pastebin.co.uk/8147 [05:48] Ahh. [05:48] Not too many left really. [05:48] the one with exclamation marks are important [05:49] Frame... hrm. [05:49] yes, not much work left [05:49] Does frame handle the pre-window drawing before metacity? [05:49] Or is that more of a panel frame. [05:49] the frame you get around a group of options for example, but also the frame around a listview, etc [05:50] Ahh... groupbox. [05:50] With you. [05:50] right [05:51] It would seem to me that Lua is quite an important engine and probably should be shipped with the basic engines package. [05:51] Considering that it is the most versatile developed yet. [05:51] yes [05:51] i agree [05:51] gnome needs good engines [05:51] and good style [05:51] It needs _one_ good engine. [05:51] isn't it in gnome-engines already? [05:51] With a good scripting backend. [05:52] troy_s, yes [05:52] dborg, how slow is it? [05:52] The reality is that if every theme engine writer jumped onto it, it would be very robust. [05:52] As it would get the little bits filled in quickly. [05:52] very true [05:53] Cimi -- depends on the coding practices. [05:53] Cimi -- Lua is pretty blazingly fast as a scripting engine. [05:53] So the overhead is minimal. [05:53] But if you waste cycles with poor coding practices, I am quite certain that it can be made to grind to a halt. [05:54] dborg might have some benches on a comparable type of look against look thing. [05:54] i'm quite good in optimizing code [05:54] the problem is that not all of us are good in it [05:55] btw this is not our problem [05:55] Cimi: ok know you have no excuses to jump on the lua engin bandwagon then :-) [05:55] s/know/now/ [05:55] the few themes that will be shipped to gnome 2.18-20 have to be fast [05:55] you can't really do much wrong with your scripting, the slowness will mostly be caused by the type of cairo drawing ops you use. in comparison a lua theme is a little slower, but still way faster than a pixmap theme [05:56] dborg, ok very fine! [05:56] if you want a blazingly fast theme, you shouldn't even use cairo ;) [05:56] I think the era of targetting the lowest common denominator of computing is getting rather old. === UbuntuStats [n=StatsBot@bl4-188-242.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [05:56] dborg: or work on cairo to make it draw things faster :-) [05:56] Considering that a 3000 class amd 32 bit chip is less than 30 dollars these days. [05:56] +1 to the latter. [05:57] troy_s, anyway we MUST do good code [05:57] Yes. [05:57] Good code is always a must. [05:57] and not code bad just because it's not important [05:57] Cimi -- you should use your excellent skills to dive into Lua. [05:57] And help dborg finish it. [05:57] lapo: it doesn't matter, anti aliased smooth corners and complex translucent gradients will always be slower than drawing straight pixels with gdk :) [05:58] i will take a look next weeks [05:58] anyway murrine will never stop to exist until i find a solution with lua scripts [05:58] i will port murrine on lua [05:59] dborg: lua engine sounds coo, but please tell me that you are still working on scrathpad [05:59] but this will not stop murrine development [05:59] Scratchpad even [06:00] lapo: sure, in fact I'm itching to work on it again. but I'm forcing myself to finish the lua engine first... since it's almost done [06:01] Force harder Wesnoth guy ;) [06:01] dborg: wesnoth really need to get removed by your machine eh :-) [06:03] dborg: you should eventually propose scratchpad for inclusion in gnome, I really think it's smarter, meaner, better then gedit [06:05] lapo: but it is totally non-conformist :) I don't think it would fit in well yet. it's also very developer oriented (then again, gedit isn't exactly plain anymore either) [06:06] dborg: that's the cool part [06:06] also, gedit is _much_ more polished and stable, especially with regards to internationalisation and file handling [06:06] dborg: yep that's a good point, but you can cure it, no? :-) [06:08] it's not my priority :) first and foremost I want to make an editor that works great for 95% of all users, instead of focusing too much on the remaining 5%. gedit is much more conservative and that's probably a good thing for a default editor that simply may not fail === UbuntuSt1ts [n=StatsBot@bl5-81-186.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-artwork [06:19] grr lua is disabled by default in autogen.sh [06:19] irritating. [06:20] sure [06:20] in theory, is animation possible with the engine?" [06:22] yes, but it would be hacky just like in clearlooks, etc. I will probably not implement it before a "clean" method is found [06:28] dborg -- that will require the gnome architects to implement it at the api level i take it? [06:29] dborg -- a Lua wiki on your site might help for designers to dump their experiences in the form of documentation :) [06:30] save you a little work. [06:31] troy_s: that's a good idea, but it should probably be somewhere on live.gnome.org [06:31] if you want to start one, I would be very grateful ;) just keep in mind that things can still change drastically (but I hope not) === rrittenhouse [n=tad@cpe-76-188-35-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-87-89.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === msikma [n=Msikma@s55933ad4.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-artwork === andreasn [n=andreas@h101n1fls31o839.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu-artwork