[12:30] <mdke> nixternal: oh, by the way
[12:30] <nixternal> duh duh duh!
[12:31] <somerville32> popey, drupal?
[12:32] <mdke> nixternal: work was immensely slow today, so I braindumped about the wiki thing
[12:32] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure
[12:32] <nixternal> good deal. I will check it out after dinner and make some notes if needed
[12:33] <nixternal> i clean out my desktop cases once a month. last month i moved my machines closer to the door in order to receive some cooler air. wow they are dustier after doing that
[12:33] <mdke> ok
[12:34] <mdke> mpt: you might take a look too, and give some feedback. We were just playing with ideas
[12:34] <popey> somerville32: yes
[12:36] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: what about drupal?
[12:36] <popey> a site i setup on doc.ubuntu.com is drupal based
[12:36] <popey> we were talking about it just before you arrived
[12:36] <tonyyarusso> ah
[12:36] <popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts
[12:36] <somerville32> popey, I have a lot of experience with Drupal if you need any help
[12:37] <popey> thanks somerville32
[12:37] <popey> its pretty basic to be honest, not using most of drupal
[01:01] <mpt> ooh, interesting problem
[01:03] <somerville32> Oh noes! It is mpt!
[01:20] <mdke> mpt: oh cool, you don't think the renaming thing is loony
[01:29] <mpt> I dislike URLs containing "wiki." on the grounds that that's an implementation detail
[01:30] <mdke> good man
[01:30] <mdke> I tell you something we have in the Italian community that we can't shrug off
[01:30] <mdke> everyone, almost without exception, describes every page as a "wiki"
[01:31] <mpt> haha
[01:32] <mpt> That's sortof synecdoche
[01:32] <mdke> bless you
[01:32] <mpt> Well, kind for the thing, rather than whole for the part, I guess
[01:33] <mdke> "wiki page" is quite awkward to say in Italian :D
[01:33] <mdke> you have to say "page of the wiki"
[01:35] <mpt> No nouns masquerading as adjectives in Italian?
[01:35] <mpt> E.g. "wooden chair" becomes "chair of wood"?
[01:35] <mdke> yeah
[01:36] <mpt> (well, wooden is actually an adjective, but ykwim)
[01:40] <mdke> mpt: was pleased to see you accepted that bug about the portlets being the wrong way round in the left column
[01:41] <willvdl> mpt, do you not reckon that when folks are on a URL containing "wiki" it is perceived as an invitation to edit?
[01:42] <mdke> i think that's the point we need to address
[01:42] <mdke> willvdl: do you fancy adding that to Unresolved Issues?
[01:43] <willvdl> mdke, at this time of night I don't fancy much other than my pillow
[01:43] <mdke> willvdl: well, since I'm already on the pillow, I'll do it
[01:43] <nixternal> ah there is plenty of time for sleep, now is work time :)
[01:43] <willvdl> Unresolved Issues?
[01:44] <mdke> yeah
[01:44] <mpt> willvdl, I know that a small proportion of people in general pay any attention to URLs, but I don't know how much higher that proportion is amongst the sort of people who'd want to edit a wiki page
[01:44] <willvdl> nixternal, it's 02:43 here. only reason I'm up is because I'm proofing edubuntu marketing materials for BETT
[01:44] <nixternal> woo that sounds like fun :)
[01:44] <mpt> willvdl, add an "== Unresolved issues ==" section to the end of the page if it doesn't already have one
[01:44] <mdke> it does. I'll add the point
[01:45] <willvdl> ah, wasn't watching what page you were referring too :)
[01:45] <mdke> if people read urls, we wouldn't have the problem :D
[01:46] <willvdl> mpt, I have a suspicion that when folks see "wiki" as synonymous to "open to contribution". Would be hard to establish though
[01:47] <mpt> Perhaps, but a "Fix this page yourself" button at the bottom would have greater effect :-)
[01:47] <nixternal> lol
[01:47] <nixternal> mpt: +1
[01:47] <somerville32> +1
[01:47] <mdke> well, they both already have "Login to edit" at the top
[01:47] <willvdl> would "fix this page yourself" not fit in the URL?
[01:48] <mdke> anyway, point added
[01:48] <mpt> gnargh
[01:48] <mdke> willvdl: "at the bottom"
[01:48] <willvdl> I have a widescreen, it fits in mine
[01:48] <mdke> heh
[01:48] <mdke> willvdl: try this one on your widescreen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hi_I'm_new_to_Ubuntu_and_I'm_having_a_hard_time_going_online%2e_My_wireless_net_work_card_is_a_Belkin_F5D7000-W_I_would_really_appreciate_it_if_some_one_told_me_how_to_go_about_this%2e?action=info
[01:48] <mdke> credit: nixternal
[01:48] <nixternal> hahahahha
[01:49] <mdke> the truly awesome thing about that page is that he opened it twice
[01:49] <nixternal> ?action=DELETE!!!
[01:49] <mdke> it's already deleted?
[01:49] <nixternal> ya
[01:49] <nixternal> he did another one?
[01:49] <mdke> see the link I posted
[01:49] <nixternal> hahahaha
[01:49] <nixternal> omg
[01:49] <mdke> he varied it too. He added "here" to the end of the page text
[01:49] <nixternal> haha, try this one on your widescreen
[01:50] <willvdl> one of our edubuntu pages had a nice red banner inserted by a guy wanting DVD's to distribute
[01:50] <nixternal> i have a widescreen and the link still split to 3 lines
[01:50] <nixternal> i don't know how i let another one of his posts slip through
[01:51] <willvdl> seems you have a nemesis
[01:51] <mdke> lol
[01:51] <nixternal> must be
[01:51] <mdke> we need to think outside the box for a replacement for "wiki" though
[01:52] <willvdl> is this the "dev" vs "wiki" etc debate from earlier?
[01:52] <mdke> yes. willvdl the url is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure?action=show
[01:52] <popey> heheh mdke that fits on one line here (the long url)
[01:52] <mdke> you must have five or six monitors
[01:53] <mdke> thank god tomorrow is friday. I really haven't had any sleep this week
[01:54] <willvdl> mdke is there a LP spec ref? would like to subscribe
[01:54] <popey> mdke: http://gallery.popey.com/gallery/screenshots/Screenshot_005 :)
[01:54] <mdke> willvdl: no, I'll make one now
[01:55] <mdke> popey: whoosh
[01:55] <mdke> plenty of space left there too
[01:55] <popey> taking the pee a little, usually i only have that one one screen :)
[01:55] <willvdl> ah, perhaps we could make reference to www.kubuntu.com and www.edubuntu.org too
[01:56] <mdke> nod
[01:59] <willvdl> the edubuntu.org is a slightly different animal but hopefully it will endeavour to follow the same conventions
[01:59] <mdke> who should be approver for that?
[01:59] <mdke> jane, mark?
[02:00] <willvdl> for what? edubuntu.org? probaby Richard
[02:00] <mdke> for that spec
[02:02] <willvdl> Jane does love wikis
[02:02] <mdke> hmm
[02:03] <mdke> I'll leave it blank for now
[02:03] <willvdl> ok I'm getting silly. Ciao.
[02:06] <somerville32> What about xubuntu.org?!
[02:07] <mdke> potentially each of these derivative websites might need separate specs
[02:07] <mdke> they all have slightly different structures
[03:36] <bdmurray> what package provides gnome "disks manager"?
[03:39] <bdmurray> The Ubuntu documentation refers to it as being in "System -> Administration -> Disks" but I don't see it there on Edgy.
[03:39] <bdmurray> And I'm not sure if it is my install or the documentation.
[03:39] <crimsun> removed due to upstream decision
[03:40] <crimsun> (so, the latter)
[03:41] <bdmurray> Okay, cool.  Why was it removed?
[03:42] <crimsun> no idea about the actual rationale.
[03:44] <somerville32> Apparently it was buggy or something?
[04:24] <somerville32> Do we use docbook sgml or xml?
[04:31] <LaserJock> xml
[04:48] <nixternal> oi LaserJock
[04:49] <LaserJock> hi nixternal
[04:51] <LaserJock> theCore!
[04:51] <theCore> hi LaserJock
[04:51] <LaserJock> theCore: I just fired up emacs snapshot
[04:52] <LaserJock> but the fonts look awful
[04:52] <theCore> hehe, mine?
[04:52] <LaserJock> which one is yours?
[04:52] <theCore> the one at debs.peadrop.com
[04:53] <LaserJock> ah, no
[04:53] <LaserJock> the one in the repos
[04:53] <theCore> try mine then
[04:53] <theCore> just a sec
[04:54] <LaserJock> theCore: what did you do to xchat?
[04:54] <theCore> http://peadrop.com/files/Screenshot.png
[04:54] <theCore> a bug fix
[04:55] <theCore> bug 57951
[04:55] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 57951 in xchat "xchat crashes frequently on quit" [Medium,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/57951
[04:55] <LaserJock> oh yeah
[04:56] <theCore> I need to get the fix into the repos
[04:56] <LaserJock> so what did you do to emacs?
[04:56] <theCore> it's a version from the emacs-unicode-2 branch
[04:56] <theCore> the mighty emacs 23
[04:57] <theCore> I update it about once per week
[04:57] <theCore> and I sync with Debian once per month
[04:58] <theCore> LaserJock: you probably want my .emacs too
[04:59] <theCore> and read this http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/XftGnuEmacs
[05:00] <LaserJock> theCore: your .emacs is on peadrop still right?
[05:00] <LaserJock> I can probably svn it
[05:00] <theCore> yep, but I need to remove the password before
[05:00] <theCore> for some weird reasons, their is a password on it :/
[05:01] <theCore> there*
[05:01] <theCore> http://svn.peadrop.com/emacs/
[05:03] <theCore> yep, it is working now
[05:03] <theCore> svn co http://svn.peadrop.com/emacs/ emacs
[05:03] <theCore> ln -s emacs/emacs.el .emacs
[05:05] <theCore> to launch it, you will need a small script or add a .Xdefaults file
[05:07] <theCore> that my little script I like to use: http://peadrop.com/files/emacs.sh
[05:08] <theCore> (Vim lovers would probably laugh hearing me right now :))
[05:08] <theCore> so much configurations
[05:13] <theCore> hmm, hopefully I didn't kill LaserJock
[05:24] <nixternal> bdmurray: don't worry about the quicktour stuff. i think we may eventually nix it
[05:26] <theCore> LaserJock!
[05:26] <LaserJock> theCore: so did you put the font in .Xresources ?
[05:27] <theCore> LaserJock: I trying to
[05:27] <LaserJock> it works if I do: emacs --enable-font-backend --font "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono-10"
[05:27] <theCore> LaserJock: yep
[05:27] <LaserJock> but I should be able to put that in a file somewhere
[05:28] <theCore> LaserJock: I use a script for that, but I think I just found out a new way
[05:29] <bdmurray> nixternal: okay, it wasn't much work to fix though.
[05:29] <nixternal> no problem
[05:29] <nixternal> we may be able to pull from it though
[05:29] <nixternal> i have never taken a look at it personally though
[05:32] <theCore> LaserJock: hmm... it seems that until they get rid of legacy font-handling codes, you will need the `--enable-font-backend' option
[05:33] <nixternal> LaserJock: messing with emacs again?
[05:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: yeah
[05:33] <nixternal> i keep telling myself I am going to, but never get around to doing it
[05:33] <theCore> LaserJock: in theory, I could patch it
[05:33] <LaserJock> theCore introduced me to org mode
[05:33] <theCore> hehe
[05:33] <nixternal> there is a guy in the Chicago LUG, all he uses is emacs. he doesn't even use a DE at all. nothing but term. RMS's twin
[05:34] <LaserJock> there's really not much of anything emacs can't do
[05:34] <nixternal> heh, when you ask him what os he uses, he will tell you emacs
[05:34] <theCore> nixternal: lol, there's even a guy who made an Emacs OS
[05:34] <theCore> nixternal: he made init point to Emacs
[05:35] <nixternal> that is scary
[05:37] <LaserJock> yeah, my boss is sure that way
[05:37] <LaserJock> even with OS X all he does is have emacs, acroread, and firefox
[05:38] <theCore> http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
[05:38] <theCore> scary --^
[05:41] <theCore> LaserJock: if you use my dot emacs, I recommend you change some of the values in custom.el (eg. the email address)
[05:42] <theCore> LaserJock: also, I assume some basic packages to be installed, like nxml-mode and emacs-goodies-el
[05:43] <nixternal> man i lost a system due to mem failure :(
[05:43] <nixternal> trying to find replacement memory for cheap isn't easy
[05:43] <theCore> LaserJock: also devscripts-el, debian-el and auctex
[05:43] <nixternal> nothing more than ddr3200 is all i need, 512mb would work and of course 1gb would be swell. but the prices aren't there just yet
[05:49] <theCore> LaserJock: do you got any other questions about Emacs, before I leave?
[05:49] <LaserJock> theCore: no, I just wanted to figure out the font issue
[05:49] <theCore> LaserJock: ok
[05:50] <theCore> then, I am off for today
[05:50] <theCore> see ya all
[10:58] <mpt> How do I link to another element with an id= in the same document?
[05:02] <willvdl> what's the policy on using CategoryArchive in the wiki?
[05:23] <nixternal> mpt: <xref linkend="id"/> or <xref linkend="id">Blah</xref>
[05:23] <nixternal> willvdl: i have no clue on the archive stuff
[05:24] <willvdl> seems to be used but wondering how it relates to quality assurance spec.
[05:24] <willvdl> anyhoo. it's FRiday and I'm going to drink beer rather.
[05:24] <willvdl> see you all Monday
[08:54] <jeffsch> mdke: has anyone suggested mydocs.ubuntu.com for the wiki?
[08:54] <jeffsch> "mydocs" suggests ownership and thus the ability to add and edit the content
[09:00] <mdke> jeffsch: no, not to my knowledge.
[09:09] <jeffsch> mdke: ok. I'll add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure
[09:12] <mdke> jeffsch: it doesn't really work for that, because there aren't any docs on the wiki
[09:13] <jeffsch> hmm... I was thinking "documentation" and not "documents"
[09:13] <jeffsch> but that's a good point
[09:14] <mdke> there isn't any documentation either...
[09:14] <mdke> we're talking about wiki.ubuntu.com here
[09:15] <jeffsch> doh! my brain fails me once again!
[09:15] <jeffsch> I'm seeing "wiki" but thinking "help" :(
[09:16] <mdke> :)
[09:34] <mdke> bdmurray: yes, we have a bug open about disk-admin
[09:35] <bdmurray> mdke: what is the bug?
[09:35] <mdke> bdmurray: that we have documentation about using disks-admin and the program isn't shipped anymore
[09:36] <bdmurray> okay. just out of curiousity why isn't it shipped anymore?
[09:36] <mdke> too many bugs
[09:37] <mdke> ironically they wanted to remove it in dapper and I persuaded them not to on the basis that we had docs about it
[09:37] <mdke> so they removed it at the beginning of Edgy and we just forgot all about that
[09:37] <bdmurray> Is there an alternative gui disk admin tool?
[09:38] <mdke> no, there was a discussion about it on the mailing list but we came to the view that we should simply remove the material on the basis that partitions are now mounted automatically
[09:38] <mdke> or something like that
[09:40] <bdmurray> okay, is looking at the server guide a decent idea?
[09:41] <mdke> yes, that needs some serious attention. If you can see places to simplify it, that would be wonderful
[09:41] <mdke> we also need to reorganise it a bit better. I'm going to work on that this weekend I think
[09:41] <nixternal> braindump on w.u.c rename:  work.u.c, collab.u.c, meta.u.c, data.u.c, projects.u.c, create.u.c, jot.u.c, think.u.c, (dev or devel are still my favorites) </brainfart>
[09:41] <nixternal> just trying to spark something here
[09:42] <mdke> how about dahood.ubuntu.com?
[09:42] <nixternal> community is good as well, but like stated it is to much to type
[09:42] <nixternal> haha
[09:42] <nixternal> i love it
[09:42] <nixternal> mdke.ubuntu.com :)
[09:42] <bdmurray> mdke: incidentally I don't see myself as a member of the ubuntu-doc team in launchpad
[09:42] <mdke> bdmurray: an oversight by us. Did you apply?
[09:42] <bdmurray> com.ubuntu.com would be a good short hand
[09:42] <nixternal> lol
[09:42] <nixternal> a head spinner
[09:43] <bdmurray> mdke: what is the application process?
[09:43] <mdke> bdmurray: "join this team"
[09:45] <bdmurray> in launchpad?
[09:46] <bdmurray> ah, found it
[09:52] <nixternal> i can't register my wiki page on LP
[09:52] <nixternal> someone else already has, but i have the actual wiki page
[10:24] <mdke> w00t
[10:24] <mdke> they've implemented the gpg plugin for squirrelmail on dreamhost
[10:24] <mdke> nixternal: ^^
[10:24] <nixternal> nice
[10:24] <nixternal> makes it easier when im away from my computer
[10:25] <mdke> now all they need to do is activate threading and all is at peace
[11:16] <popey> evening mdke
[11:16] <mdke> evening
[11:17] <mdke> popey: good job today
[11:19] <popey> thanks
[11:20] <popey> just need to finish the how-to and flesh out some specs
[11:21] <mdke> then we'll start cracking on finding some people
[11:21] <popey> agreed
[11:21] <mdke> I wondered if it would be worth you chatting with the ubuntuclips guy on a one to one basis and trying to convince him to come on board early doors
[11:22] <popey> yup
[11:22] <popey> will do
[11:22] <mdke> nixternal: having said that, I can't find the plugin. DH have been lying to me
[11:22] <mdke> popey: cool
[11:23] <popey> need to sort the "rules"too because we (me and him) differ on our ideas
[11:23] <mdke> technical or social?
[11:24] <popey> technical
[11:24] <mdke> resolvable?
[11:24] <popey> yeah, i am sure it is
[11:24] <mdke> cool, I'll leave that to you :D
[11:25] <popey> :)
[11:43] <mpt> mdke, still around?
[11:44] <mdke> mpt: yes
[11:45] <mpt> mdke, the links I removed were to files that aren't there
[11:45] <mpt> Are you intending to move them to that directory from somewhere else?
[11:46] <mdke> mpt: well, you left one of them. And yeah, we can import them when they have reached a nice stable state upstream
[11:47] <mpt> ok, I'll restore those links, and move them when there's a better place for them
[11:47] <mdke> I thought maybe you felt they might go better in something like "Configuring the desktop"
[11:48] <mpt> and use <xref> to fix my cross-references
[11:48] <mdke> ok
[11:48] <mdke> mpt: one more thing, about the presence of "What's new"
[11:49] <mdke> you think it's worth writing those? people upgrading get the release notes in update-manager and online
[11:49] <mdke> and in firefox too, now I think of it
[11:49] <mdke> I hadn't envisaged shipping them with the help
[11:50] <mpt> I'm not entirely sure what the release notes are supposed to be for
[11:50] <mpt> (I reported a bug yesterday asking why they include instructions on getting Ubuntu)
[11:50] <mdke> yeah I know, I rejected it
[11:50] <mdke> :p
[11:51] <mdke> but you'll need to talk to mdz or tollef I think if you're not satisfied with my response
[11:51] <mpt> but just as helping people understand the differences between Windows and Ubuntu 7.04 will help them use Ubuntu 7.04
[11:51] <mpt> so helping people understand the differences between Ubuntu 6.10 and 7.04 will help them use 7.04
[11:52] <mpt> I'm talking about important differences in how to do things, not "we have rounded window corners now"
[11:52] <mdke> that's very true. But i don't know if it justifies us maintaining a kinda slimmed down userfriendly version of the releasenotes just for that
[11:52] <mdke> apart from anything else
[11:52] <mdke> I bet you the important differences in how to do things aren't always in the dev's releasenotes
[11:53] <mpt> Extra important for it to be in the help, then :-)
[11:53] <mdke> it will be hard work for us to hunt it all down and write it up, given how much is already on the plate
[11:53] <mdke> but still, we can mull it over
[11:54] <mdke> mpt: a few other things about the patch
[11:55] <mdke> you've also removed the links to the administration thing and the users/groups thing
[11:55] <mdke> and the switching from windows material that I incorporated
[11:55] <mpt> We have discussed that ten minutes ago
[11:56] <mdke> mpt: no, we discussed the links to material that isn't there (the Gnome upstream stuff)
 ok, I'll restore those links, and move them when there's a better place for them
[11:56] <mdke> these are things that were there
[11:57] <mpt> (I've just finished that)
[11:57] <mdke> ok.
[11:57] <mdke> the switching one obviously overlaps with your glossary thing, they should be combined
[11:58] <mdke> that glossary stuff is really useful, btw
[11:58] <mpt> Yes, that's what I meant by "I'll ... start incorporating relevant information from 'Switching From Windows'."
[11:58] <mpt> So "If you've been using Windows" will link to a list of topics, of which the glossary is one page
[11:58] <mdke> mpt: I'd already down the "incorporating relevant information" part. What you see there is a slimmed down version of "switching from windows". But that's cool, I'll leave you to that
[11:59] <mdke> onto other things
[11:59] <mdke> mpt: menu entries... we should use entities for these
[11:59] <mdke> are you familiar with how we do those?
[11:59] <mpt> ok, back up a bit
[11:59] <mpt> You'd already done the incorporating
[11:59] <mdke> yes, I thought I had
[12:00] <mpt> Is there a reason for retaining the "Introduction", "Installing Ubuntu", etc topics?
[12:00] <mdke> ok, I must have dreamed that then
[12:00] <mdke> sorry!
[12:01] <mpt> np :-)
[12:01] <mdke> mpt: a quick side note on the installing section
[12:01] <mpt> I didn't want to try and do all of that in one patch
[12:01] <mdke> the help will be available from the live cd... I wonder if it's worth keeping that section on the basis that people might look for help being trying to use ubiquity
[12:02] <mpt> In 7.04 Ubiquity is due to provide assistance in transferring stuff from Windows
[12:02] <mpt> To answer your next question, I'm not familiar with how we do entities
[12:02] <mdke> ok, we'll go through that quickly
[12:04] <mdke> essentially, when you type &printing; in a document, it looks in trunk/ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus-C/ent (if that file is incorporated in the top of the docbook file), which in turn (if it has a "printing" entry) looks in trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/printing.xml, which provides the <menuchoice>blahblahblah</menuchoice> stuff
[12:04] <mdke> so it's shorthand for doing the menu entry
[12:04] <mdke> but more importantly, it provides a central place to change all instances of a menu entry, if one changes.
[12:05] <mpt> Wow, creating a new file for every menu entry
[12:05] <mdke> that is done manually as needed
[12:06] <mdke> say for example that Ubuntu decides to make gnome-control-center the default instead of having those silly System->Preferences and System->Administration menus, it will potentially make it easier to update all of our menu entries
[12:07] <mdke> follow me?
[12:07] <mpt> yep
[12:07] <mpt> good idea
[12:07] <mdke> ok.
[12:07] <mdke> however
[12:07] <mdke> send the updated version of your patch, I'll apply it, and we can work on that after
[12:07] <mpt> "Use &gnome-app-install; to install applications from Ubuntu&rsquo;s software library,..."
[12:08] <mdke> that's right. Is it worth having links in the glossary to bits of the help too?
[12:08] <mpt> actually, this is quite easy
[12:08] <mpt> I'll do it now
[12:08] <mpt> Yes, there should be such links
[12:08] <mpt> I've included comments for some of them
[12:09] <mdke> cool
[12:09] <mdke> you'll need to include the new ubuntu/menus/C/*xml files in your patch in that case
[12:09] <mpt> GEdit doesn't syntax-highlight entities that contain dashes
[12:10] <mpt> "Applications -> Add/Remove Programs"?
[12:10] <mpt> On my system it's "Applications" -> "Add/Remove..."
[12:10] <mpt> (of which we'd elide the ellipsis)
[12:12] <mpt> Using entities does make the glossary code much shorter
[12:13] <mpt> but if (say for example) Ubuntu decided to make gnome-control-center the default instead of having those silly System->Preferences and System->Administration menus, those entities wouldn't really save us any time in that particular case :-)
[12:13] <mpt> We'd have a lot more to change in the relevant pages
[12:13] <mdke> depending on how it was implemented, yeah - that occurred to me
[12:13] <mdke> it was a crap example
[12:14] <mdke> I was just dreaming out loud
[12:15] <mpt> A better example is the stuff that was moved from System Tools to various other places
[12:15] <mdke> don't rub in the badness of the example
[12:15] <mpt> sowi
[12:17] <mpt> hooray, my first new entity
[12:17] <mpt> however, it has unwanted space after it
[12:17] <mpt> and I can't fix that
[12:17] <mdke> hmm.
[12:18] <mpt> because there's always a newline at the end of the entity file
[12:18] <mpt> and XML interprets the newline as whitespace
[12:18] <mdke> they *all* have unwanted space?