[12:18] <mpt> So "&preferences;." ends up as "System -> Preferences ." instead of "System -> Preferences."
[12:19] <mpt> Well, &administration; has the same problem
[12:19] <mpt> so does &synaptic;
[12:19] <mpt> Extrapolation: they all have the problem
[12:20] <mdke> you're quite right
[12:20] <mdke> how shit
[12:20] <mpt> Lame workaround: don't use an entity as the last word in a sentence, or the last word in a clause, or the last word in a bracketed section
[12:20] <mpt> Perhaps the Makefile can forcibly remove terminal newlines from all the entity files? :-)
[12:21] <mdke> but synaptic.xml doesn't have a newline at the end
[12:21] <mpt> It does when I open it
[12:21] <mdke> mine ends on </menuchoice>
[12:22] <mpt> whether I open it in gedit, or abiword, or bluefish
[12:22] <mdke> I'm using gedit
[12:22] <mdke> nano shows the newline though
[12:22] <mdke> :(
[12:23] <mdke> surely there is a solution to this nonsense
[12:23] <mdke> froud: here by any chance?
[12:28] <mpt> oh, bad news
[12:28] <mpt> there's unwanted space before the entity, too
[12:28] <mpt> I think that even if we solve the newline problem
[12:28] <mpt> Entities would have to be a single line
[12:28] <mpt> with no space between tags
[12:29] <mpt> (except for the ones that are supposed to have spaces)
[12:30] <mpt> e.g. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu> <guisubmenu>Internet</guisubmenu> <guimenuitem>Firefox Web Browser</guimenuitem></menuchoice>
[12:30] <mdke> what a pita. Probably we can solve it somehow anyway, keep going on the important stuff for now
[12:30] <mpt> yeah
[12:30] <mpt> I'll report a bug about it so we don't forget it
[12:30] <mdke> I'll write to a mailing list
[12:30] <mdke> ok
[12:30] <mdke> mpt: btw, did you check that your doc validates before making the patch? I haven't checked it myself
[12:31] <mpt> No, how do I do that? With validate.sh?
[12:31] <mdke> yes
[12:31] <mdke> if it gives output, there are some issues
[12:31] <mdke> yelp doesn't require perfect docbook, y'see
[12:32] <mpt> I noticed :-)
[12:32] <mpt> root and DTD name do not match 'glossary' and 'article'
[12:32] <mdke> that sounds unusual. Can you pastebin it?
[12:33] <mpt> It's because I was using "<!DOCTYPE article" rather than "<!DOCTYPE glossary"
[12:33] <mdke> oh, you're not using <article?
[12:33] <mdke> I didn't look at that
[12:34] <mpt> and now the validator is *really* calling the waaahmbulance
[12:34] <mdke> haha
[12:35] <crimsun> hehe, the waaahmbulance.
[12:37] <mpt> oh, I can't use <legalnotice>, <copyright>, etc as direct children of a glossary
[12:38] <mpt> they need to be in <glossaryinfo>
[12:38] <mpt> DocBook is a steaming pile.
[12:40] <mdke> please don't use your own legalnotice stuff, just copy what we've done in other documents
[12:40] <mpt> I'm using the entity
[12:40] <mdke> ah magic
[12:40] <mpt> It's complaining about the stuff inside the entity
[12:40] <mdke> you can put <title> inside <glossaryinfo> too
[12:40] <mdke> then close it and begin the content
[12:41] <mpt> according to TDG's example, I shouldn't have to
[12:42] <mdke> TDG?
[12:43] <mdke> oh definitive guide
[12:46] <mpt> ok, their example glossary validates
[12:46] <mpt> now to slowly turn it into mine, and work out what exactly fails
[12:48] <mdke> mpt: I'm quite good at deciphering those error messages, if I can help (lots of practice)
[12:49] <mpt> It's "Element glossary content does not follow the DTD, expecting <insert entire DTD here>, got <whole pile of stuff here>"
[12:50] <mdke> ok, so the whole pile of stuff is the problem. You got the wrong child to <glossary>
[12:51] <mpt> Inserting &legalnotice; in TDG's example <glossary> causes it to stop validating
[12:51] <mdke> that should be inside <glossaryinfo>, I suppose. It's in <articleinfo> in our articles, and <bookinfo> in our books
[12:51] <mpt> just tried that, no worky
[12:52] <mdke> with <title> as well>
[12:52] <mdke> ?
[12:52] <mpt> "expecting (glossaryinfo? , (title , subtitle? , titleabbrev?)? , (..."
[12:52] <mpt> Does that mean <glossaryinfo> has to come before <title>?
[12:52] <mpt> or that <title> has to be a child of <glossaryinfo>?
 ?
[12:53] <mpt> aha, <glossary><glossaryinfo><title>foo</title></glossaryinfo>...</glossary> validates
[12:54] <mdke> quite
[12:54] <mpt> and so does <glossary><glossaryinfo><title>foo</title> &legalnotice;</glossaryinfo>...</glossary>
[12:54] <mpt> hooray
[12:59] <mpt> It annoys me that <listitem> requires <para> or similar
[12:59] <mpt> ok, all validating now
[01:00] <mdke> yes, that is unexpected
[01:00] <mdke> same for <step> and such
[01:00] <mpt> In other news, <xref> doesn't work
[01:00] <mdke> your usage?
[01:00] <mpt> It links to the top of the page, instead of the expected section
[01:00] <mpt> <xref linkend="control-panel" />
[01:00] <mpt> oh, am I missing a #?
[01:00] <mdke> what version of yelp do you have?
[01:01] <mpt> or is that an HTMLism?
[01:01] <mdke> if "control-panel" is a section, it should link to that section
[01:01] <mpt> Well, it correctly produces a link, and correctly gets the right title from the <glossterm>
[01:01] <mpt> it's just that the link doesn't go to the right place
[01:02] <mdke> it's <glossterm id="control-panel">, is it?
[01:02] <mpt> <glossentry id="control-panel">
[01:02] <mdke> hmm. Either it doesn't work with glossentry, just <section>, or you've found a bug in yelp
[01:02] <mdke> only one man will know
[01:03] <mpt> All the other parts of the linkage work with <glossentry>
[01:03] <mpt> so I guess it's a Yelp bug
[01:03] <mdke> I would have thought that is likely, given that glossentry is probably pretty rare
[01:03] <mdke> file it, shaun will let you know soon enough
[01:16] <mpt> Great, now I have a file that validates but that Yelp won't open
[01:17] <mdke> mpt: that's extremely odd, nay, impossible
[01:18] <mdke> any errors from yelp?
[01:18] <mpt> "The file '/home/mpt/glossary.xml' could not be parsed. Either the file does not exist, or it is improperly formatted."
[01:18] <mdke> any errors in the terminal?
[01:18] <mpt> oh, oh, here comes bug-buddy
[01:18] <mdke> have you got another instance of yelp open?
[01:19] <mpt> Yelp-ERROR **: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bugs security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken."
[01:19] <mdke> god
[01:19] <mdke> more than one yelp instance?
[01:19] <mpt> yes
[01:19] <mdke> that's what always catches me out
[01:19] <mdke> you're only allowed one
[01:20] <mdke> Yelp demands it
[01:20] <mpt> Then why does it open multiple windows?
[01:20] <mpt> grr.
[01:20] <Ubugtu> New bug: #78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78135
[01:20] <mdke> thanks
[01:20] <mpt> ok, now it opens
[01:20] <mpt> thanks for the tip :-)
[01:21] <mpt> I would have taken hours to guess that myself
[01:21] <mdke> :)
[01:21] <mpt> so now I have a nice testcase of the glossary link bug
[01:29] <mpt> Reported http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=393341
[01:29] <Ubugtu> Gnome bug 393341 in docbook "Clicking an <xref> to a <glossentry> doesn't scroll to that entry" [Normal,Unconfirmed] 
[01:55] <LaserJock> sure
[01:56] <mdke> correct!
[01:57] <mdke> bdmurray: you're not working on it are you?
[02:01] <mpt> mdke, updated patch sent
[02:03] <mdke> mpt: great!! How are you feeling with docbook now? pretty good?
[02:03] <mdke> or rather, as well as can be expected
[02:15] <theCore> is there plans about the restructure of the docs
[02:15] <theCore> ?
[02:15] <mdke> theCore: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp
[02:15] <theCore> mdke: thanks
[02:16] <theCore> Topic based?
[02:16] <theCore> isn't it like Windows help system?
[02:17] <mdke> mpt: newtoubuntu.xml doesn't validate
[02:17] <mdke> I'll fix it though
[02:17] <mdke> mpt: (missing <para> inside <listitem>)
[02:19] <mpt> oh, sorry
[02:19] <mpt> I only validated the glossary
[02:19] <theCore> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml makes a lot of sense
[02:20] <mdke> mpt: "Ubuntu does not support faxing" <-- this should be changed to point at our doc for faxing
[02:20] <theCore> but I got some doubts about it
[02:20] <mpt> mdke, as for how I'm feeling about DocBook, the pain is encouraging me to get around to helping define the Mallard file format
[02:21] <mdke> nod
[02:23] <mpt> I'm thinking a very small subset of HTML, but with a couple of changes to the <a> element
[02:23] <mpt> and with an <if> element
[02:24] <mdke> I guess you kinda have an idea about what elements are needed
[02:24] <theCore> does it means if Project Mallard get implemented the Help buttons will actually point to the exact documentation topic, not to the application manual?
[02:24] <theCore> if so, I am in
[02:24] <mpt> theCore, yes
[02:25] <theCore> nice, need some help?
[02:25] <theCore> that always been something I wanted to change
[02:26] <mdke> mpt: committed
[02:27] <mpt> thanks :-)
[02:27] <mpt> theCore, irc.gnome.org/#docs is the best place for that
[02:27] <mpt> (albeit that there are many fewer people there than here)
[02:30] <mdke> mpt: so if you're feeling like you can commit things without breaking them, I would quite like to arrange for commit access. You've been hanging around for ages, and know your way around
[02:30] <mpt> Well, as this patch has shown, I don't know my way around
[02:30] <mpt> There were many basic things wrong with it
[02:30] <mdke> I meant around the team generally.
[02:30] <mdke> but in terms of docbook, lots of us have the same problem
[02:31] <mdke> you just need to remember to use the validator
[02:31] <mpt> That was one of them
[02:31] <mpt> another was the entities
[02:31] <mpt> another was removing the links to as-yet-non-but-soon-to-be-existent files
[02:31] <mdke> that was bad communication between you and me
[02:33] <mpt> and at the moment I present approximately 1 patch/year
[02:33] <mdke> well, whatever you prefer
[02:33] <mdke> if you're happy with patches, so am I
[02:33] <mpt> ok
[02:34] <mpt> If it becomes a bottleneck for either of us, let's reconsider
[02:34] <mdke> fine
[02:34] <mpt> but at the moment I don't trust myself that much
[02:41] <mdke> crap this serverguide structure needs some speccing up
[02:41] <mdke> i'll do it after having some sleep, I guess
[02:46] <mdke> mpt: did you have any involvement in the gnome-control-center design?
[02:48] <mdke> seems like the design could have some lovin
[03:12] <Burgundavia> mdke: ping
[03:31] <mpt> mdke, none at all
[03:55] <nixternal> Burgundavia: i knew you weren't one of us ;p
[03:55] <nixternal> girlfriend shmrilfriend
[06:18] <Jucato> nixternal: ping
[06:18] <nixternal> yo yo
[06:19] <Jucato> were you able to read the guide?
[06:20] <nixternal> nah, i have been chilling. but do have it bookmarked :)
[06:20] <Jucato> ah ok. coz it hasn't gone through peer review yet, at least the parts that I modified for Kubuntu
[10:12] <Burgundavia> nixternal: I try
[11:50] <mdke> morning
[12:21] <MaxCombo> morning
[12:59] <mdke> jsgotangco: ah, you reveal yourself! How's it going?
[12:59] <jsgotangco> pretty good, if not pretty busy at the current work
[12:59] <jsgotangco> im travelling again in a few days but in indonesia
[01:00] <jsgotangco> but the sched is getting more saner as the days go by
[01:00] <mdke> cool
[01:01] <jsgotangco> how's yourself?
[01:01] <mdke> very well thanks. My GF is away at home so I am doing a fair amount of procrastinating/Ubuntu work
[01:02] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[01:02] <jsgotangco> i haven't looked into any code for quite some time so i am rusty
[01:02] <jsgotangco> in a way i miss it though
[01:04] <froud> mdke: ping
[01:04] <froud> mdke: was you looking for me?
[01:05] <jsgotangco> wow froud how's it going on your side
[01:05] <froud> good dude, happy new year
[01:06] <jsgotangco> you too, how's business?
[01:06] <mdke> froud: hiya yeah - nasty docbook problem that I thought maybe you would know the answer to
[01:06] <froud> mdke: OK what's the problem
[01:07] <mdke> mpt filed a bug, hang on
[01:07] <mdke> froud: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/78135
[01:07] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[01:07] <mdke> it's about entities which are used for menu-entries
[01:09] <mdke> this is an example of a file which is included: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/firefox.xml
[01:09] <froud> mdke: which editor is doing that XMLmind?
[01:09] <mdke> froud: I think most text editors, like nano, gedit, etc
[01:10] <mdke> but also the whitespace after the xml declaration is a problem, according to mpt
[01:10] <froud> Looks like an editor setup problem
[01:10] <froud> I need to svn co
[01:10] <froud> I will take a look at it for you
[01:10] <mdke> thanks very much indeed
[01:11] <mdke> I wondered if it was a bug in docbook
[01:13] <froud> mdke: I don't think so because it does not happen when using VI or with me in Oxygen.
[01:17] <mdke> hmm
[01:19] <mdke> froud: but on the basis that some editors do it, we need to find a way to get docbook to handle it...
[01:20] <froud> mdke: OK, perhaps we can add a method to santitize the xml during the build.
[01:21] <mdke> froud: I think maybe the only method would be to use a script which removes the newlines and expands the entities, but it's a bit dirty
[01:21] <froud> xmllint should be used with the -noent param
[01:22] <froud> that should expand all ents
[01:22] <mdke> yes, I don't have a problem with using that
[01:22] <froud> mdke: anyway lemme complete the svn co and have a look
[01:22] <mdke> froud: appreciate it
[01:23] <froud> mdke: I have some time this weekend as it happens so time is good
[01:23] <mdke> ok, well I still appreciate it :)
[01:27] <froud> mdke: question, is this new. iow, did something change to make this happen or has it always, just happened?
[01:28] <mdke> froud: always
[01:28] <froud> k. thx
[01:35] <mpt> I was just picky enough to notice it
[01:37] <mdke> I'd noticed it but I always assumed it was a problem with the file rather than the entity text. i didn't realise it was universal
[02:54] <froud> mdke: when I build dg I get this, can't remember what this meant :-)
[02:54] <froud> make dg
[02:54] <froud> make: *** No rule to make target `../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/C', needed by `dg'.  Stop.
[02:54] <mdke> froud: yeah, the building is all screwed at the moment. We moved all the documents around
[02:54] <froud> he he
[02:54] <mdke> the dg doesn't exist any more
[02:54] <froud> ho k
[02:55] <froud> So now me is on Kubuntu and install of yelp is lot sof gnome stuff depends
[02:55] <froud> mdke: anyway
[02:55] <mdke> yeah, that's true. I dunno if there is another good docbook viewer
[02:55] <froud> this is not an editor problem
[02:56] <froud> When xsltproc expand the ents it ads the whitesapce
[02:56] <froud> This means we must consider preprocessing
[02:56] <froud> i.o.w we create a temp.xml of the doc
[02:57] <mdke> does yelp use xsltproc?
[02:57] <froud> clean such circumstances and then use the resolved and sanitized temp.xml to build instead of the src
[02:57] <froud> are you seeing the problem there too?
[02:57] <mdke> yes
[02:57] <mdke> I haven't tried anything except yelp, in fact
[02:57] <froud> I think Yelp is depend on linxml2
[02:58] <froud> libxml2 provides xsltproc
[02:58] <froud> The problem is that yelp wants to read your xml
[02:58] <froud> so you ship it
[02:59] <mdke> I dunno what yelp uses to do the xml->html convertion on the fly, but whatever it is, it's got that bug
[02:59] <froud> if you want to fix it, then you would have to ship the sanitized tem.xml idea I mentioned
[02:59] <froud> or hack yelp to resolve the problem
[02:59] <mdke> yeah. Not necessarily yelp, but whatever is causing the bug, libxml2 or whatever
[02:59] <mdke> so you think that xmllint will expand the entity without creating the whitespace?
[03:00] <froud> yelp I think is using xsltproc
[03:00] <froud> let me check
[03:00] <mdke> I'll ask
[03:00] <froud> mdke: can you delete the last line in this file https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/firefox.xml
[03:01] <froud> then try the internet stuff in yelp
[03:01] <froud> by last line I mean the blank line after the closing element
[03:02] <mdke> froud: there isn't a blank line after the closing element
[03:02] <mdke> froud: at least not when i view it in gedit. There is one when i view it in nano
[03:02] <froud> Hmm in my file trust nano
[03:02] <froud> or vi
[03:03] <mdke> if I delete it with nano, and reopen it, it is still there
[03:03] <mdke> so I don't trust nano
[03:03] <froud> k
[03:03] <mdke> it's not there in vi either
[03:05] <froud> OK
[03:05] <froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid path to doc
[03:05] <froud> that will give you a complete xmlinsance
[03:06] <froud> instance
[03:06] <mdke> we should make a small test case
[03:06] <froud> redirect it to a file
[03:06] <froud> xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid C/internet/internet.xml > temp.xml
[03:06] <mdke> ok
[03:06] <froud> But this give validty warnings
[03:07] <froud> they look like xrefs between the documents
[03:07] <mdke> that's ok, there are some minor issues with xrefs
[03:07] <froud> ok sec I just want to comment all of them for this doc on my sys
[03:07] <mdke> that breaks xmllint?
[03:07] <mdke> use add-applications.xml
[03:08] <mdke> there is only one error there
[03:09] <mdke> the output of that xmllint command is zero though
[03:09] <mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/ubuntu/C/add-applications$ xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid add-applications.xml
[03:09] <mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/ubuntu/C/add-applications$
[03:14] <mdke> ok, the problem is still present in test.xml if I use that
[03:14] <froud> mdke: the problem is not shown here
[03:15] <froud> pasting
[03:15] <froud> <application xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Firefox</application> can be launched by clicking
[03:15] <froud> <menuchoice xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">
[03:15] <froud>     <guimenu xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Applications</guimenu>
[03:15] <froud>     <guisubmenu xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Internet</guisubmenu>
[03:15] <froud>     <guimenuitem xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Firefox Web Browser</guimenuitem>

[03:15] <froud> As you can see no whitespace
[03:15] <froud> So this could be a yelp issue
[03:15] <froud> or xsltproc
[03:15] <mdke> are you sure that is from an instance where the entity is being used?
[03:15] <froud> mdke how you generating the help.u
[03:16] <mdke> here is one of mine:
[03:16] <mdke>     <guimenu xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">System</guimenu>
[03:16] <mdke>     <guimenuitem xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Administration</guimenuitem>
[03:16] <mdke>     <guimenuitem xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude">Synaptic Package Manager</guimenuitem>

[03:16] <mdke> ..
[03:16] <mdke> new line between </menuchoice> and the period
[03:16] <froud> sec
[03:18] <froud> My line in src <application>Firefox</application> can be launched by clicking &firefox;.</para>
[03:20] <mdke> what file?
[03:21] <froud> http://pastebin.ca/307891
[03:21] <mdke> i still get the bug
[03:22] <mdke> http://pastebin.ca/307893
[03:22] <mdke> do we have different versions of xml2?
[03:22] <mdke> ii  libxml2                              2.6.27.dfsg-1ubuntu1                 GNOME XML library
[03:23] <mdke> ii  libxml2-utils                        2.6.27.dfsg-1ubuntu1                 XML utilities
[03:23] <froud> sec
[03:23] <froud> I see the problem is the extra line
[03:23] <mdke> yes
[03:23] <mdke> it's the newline before the period
[03:24] <froud> http://pastebin.ca/307896
[03:25] <froud> c line 25
[03:25] <froud> when I remove that line. ie del the last cr I get no space in output of xmllint
[03:25] <mdke> but I don't see such a line
[03:25] <froud> when I add it I get it
[03:26] <mdke> we're back to the beginning :(
[03:26] <froud> Yah but we know what causes it
[03:26] <mdke> if I open firefox.xml in vi, there is no extra line
[03:26] <mdke> so something is inserting the extra line along the way
[03:26] <froud> try do a delete after closing element
[03:26] <mdke> maybe it's a problem with the way the entity is declared?
[03:27] <mdke> the last character I have in that file with vi is >
[03:27] <froud> no if there was a decl problem you would see null in the output
[03:58] <froud> mdke: use cat -A -E menus/C/firefox.xml
[03:59] <froud> mdke: if you see a $ at end then you know there is an eol character in the file
[03:59] <froud> http://pastebin.ca/307912
[04:00] <froud> mdke: if you dont then there is no eol
[04:00] <froud> http://pastebin.ca/307913
[04:00] <mdke> froud: yes, I get that. Any idea how to get rid of that?
[04:00] <froud> I am looking for a way to automate it
[04:02] <mdke> we need to get rid of the one after the xml declaration too, that causes an unwanted whitespace before the text, according to mpt
[04:02] <mdke> but really, I don't think it should be having the effect that it does.
[04:24] <froud> mdke: script the following
[04:24] <froud> #! /bin/bash
[04:24] <froud> files=`ls *.xml`
[04:24] <froud> echo $files
[04:24] <froud> for i in tr -d '\n \f' < $files ;done
[04:24] <froud> this will give you

[04:28] <gump11> join #ubuntu-kernel
[04:32] <froud> mdke: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+bug/78135
[04:32] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 78135 in ubuntu-doc "All entities have unwanted space before and after them" [Undecided,In progress] 
[04:32] <froud> that script I pasted was wrong
[04:33] <froud> mdke: it should be
[04:33] <froud> #! /bin/bash
[04:33] <froud> files=`ls *.xml`
[04:33] <froud> echo $files
[04:33] <froud> for i in $files; do tr -d '\n \f' < $files ;done
[04:40] <jeffsch> froud: maybe the xslt normalize-space() function will work.
[04:40] <jeffsch> froud: it means customizing the xslt though
[04:41] <jeffsch> but may be a cleaner solution (if it works) in the long run
[04:48] <mdke> froud: thanks, did you post that to the bug already?
[04:48] <mdke> jeffsch: perhaps you can post that too?
[04:59] <jeffsch> mdke: ok, done.
[05:00] <mdke> thanks!
[05:34] <froud> jeffsch: the thing is you would have to add that function to Yelp
[05:35] <mdke> we might be able to push it into Yelp, if it's a nice solution
[06:09] <mdke> hi Zelut
[06:09] <Zelut> mornin'
[06:10] <mdke> Zelut: I wanted to have a quick chat about the question of contributing directly to Ubuntu documentation
[06:10] <mdke> I noticed your blog post just now doesn't refer to the documentation at all, were you aware there is a dedicated documentation site, at https://help.ubuntu.com (and an anyone-can-edit wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
[06:13] <Zelut> oops. I guess I considered the wiki & help the same.
[06:13] <Zelut> I'll add it.
[06:13] <Zelut> I am planning on reviewing any of my posts and double-checking the docs for where it could be added, its just been a busy last few weeks.
[06:13] <mdke> the wiki is for the development community. there are no docs there
[06:14] <mdke> thanks.
[06:14] <mdke> The main thing I wanted to talk about is whether you would be interested in contributing some material directly to ubuntu documentation, and linking to it from your blog, instead of creating it on your blog. My last post on http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2006/12/22/ubuntu-tutorials-giving-the-planet-a-spin/ tries to explain the reasons why
[06:14] <mdke> I don't know whether you've seen that comment yet or not, I added it recently
[06:14] <Zelut> so I guess I didn't understand the difference in wiki.ubuntu vs help.ubuntu
[06:15] <mdke> ok, all clear now I hope on that score
[06:16] <Zelut> I did see the comment and you definitely have a point.  Any post for another 4 days were all pre-written weeks ago so I'm letting those all run their course.
[06:17] <mdke> oh wow, you are well organised
[06:17] <Zelut> but I think I could start writing mainly on the docs after that
[06:17] <mdke> Zelut: I should probably apologise for the manner in which I pursue this question: I have a fervent zealot-like passion for trying to get collaboration going and avoiding reinvention of wheels in free software communities.
[06:17] <Zelut> I figured out the use of the timestamp feature in WordPress so I would dedicate a few hours and pre-write for the week :)
[06:18] <mdke> I know it can sometimes sound a bit over the top
[06:18] <mdke> but your blog is a cool tool for promotion, I wouldn't want you to stop using it to promote information, I just think the information is best created in our central resource and *then* promoted :)
[06:19] <Zelut> you're right.
[06:20] <mdke> yay.
[06:20] <Zelut> do the docs pages use the same wiki syntax as the devel wiki?
[06:20] <mdke> yes
[06:20] <mdke> lots of the pages there need some serious love
[06:20] <mdke> Zelut: if you ever need any info about how to participate or something isn't clear, please give me a shout, or someone else in here can help, like nixternal
[06:21] <mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide is probably the best starting place
[06:21] <Zelut> I've done a bit of wiki work in the past.. probably just have to review the syntax.
[06:22] <mdke> that would be very cool. And your blog would be a great way to promote the documentation wiki...
[06:22] <mdke> as you yourself prove, it's not too well understood
[06:22] <mdke> which is our fault
[06:23] <Zelut> is there a doc team in launchpad I should apply to? ..I guess make things official :)
[06:23] <mdke> there is a wikiteam
[06:23] <mdke> the docteam we keep for something else (the system docs)
[06:24] <Zelut> ok.  I am registered on the wiki team but haven't really been active for a long time.  last year it seemed fairly unorganized
[06:24] <Zelut> mdke: lets see if we can redirect this traffic to the docs. http://my.statcounter.com/project/standard/stats.php?project_id=1751189&guest=1
[06:24] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki
[06:24] <mdke> oh yeah, you're there
[06:24] <mdke> Zelut: that would be simply awesome
[06:25] <Zelut> mdke: I had to remove the Digg This button yesterday after getting front-paged for the third time in a month
[06:25] <mdke> there are some organisational issues too, we need to work on things like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance
[06:25] <mdke> cool
[06:26] <mdke> yes, it would be nice if the help site got some publicity like that
[06:27] <mdke> plus of course, when material is tidied up, we can use it in the system docs
[06:29] <Zelut> so, again, (and it might because its yet early in the morning), should I work on the wiki, the help or the /community section directly?
[06:30] <mdke> Zelut: it's https://help.ubuntu.com/community.
[06:30] <mdke> if you read http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 that should clarify the whole system
[06:34] <Zelut> looking back at your wiki page I'm reminded how behind I am on my previous LaptopTesting & Wiki work.
[06:35] <mdke> I haven't done a LaptopTesting page for feisty yet, I don't think
[06:35] <Zelut> I think I've tested 6 laptops but never updated them for Edgy on the list.. /me has some work cut out for him.
[06:35] <Zelut> I can't get Feisty to boot on any of my machines..
[06:35] <mdke> now the compulsory phase has ended, I haven't got around to it
[06:35] <Zelut> md5 looks ok, but it errors out
[06:36] <mdke> it has some known problems with certain hard disks last I heard
[06:36] <mdke> not sure though, they should be fixed by now
[06:36] <Zelut> I've got a few more machines I could try it on.. didn't work on the first two
[06:36] <mdke> try a daily maybe
[06:39] <Zelut> I'm trying to figure out a way to organize my time.  I'm sure redirecting my efforts to the docs will quickly turn into revising the poorly written ones, on top of the LoCo work
[06:39] <Zelut> why is there never enough time? :)
[06:39] <mdke> yeah, the classic problem
[06:40] <mdke> heh
[06:42] <Zelut> well I'll write up a game plan and get started.  any doc-team meets I should be aware of?
[06:43] <mdke> Zelut: not at the moment, but you can inspire some :) Also, the mailing list is a good place to ask questions, make suggestions etc
[06:43] <mdke> I'm really happy that you're interested
[06:45] <froud> mdke: can I ask you a question?
[06:46] <mdke> froud: you just did
[06:46] <mdke> go ahead
[06:50] <mdke> Zelut: you need to match this many mailing lists: http://mdke.org/tmp/list.png
[06:50] <mdke> I bet others have loads more besides
[06:51] <Zelut> it'd probably help if I'd organize them the way you have.
[06:51] <Zelut> I think *you* need an assistant :)
[06:51] <mdke> do you use procmail?
[06:51] <mdke> it's great
[06:52] <Zelut> i don't think I have
[06:52] <mdke> froud: what was the question?
[06:53] <froud> mdke: how are you currently building and packing kubuntu docs
[06:54] <mdke> froud: well, using xsltproc with a slightly refined kde xslt, and then using the regular debian packaging tools
[06:54] <froud> mdke: there may be an easier way, same as upstream
[06:54] <froud> meinproc
[06:55] <mdke> froud: we moved away from it in order to keep the toolset close to ubuntu-docs
[06:55] <mdke> the mailing list archive should have some discussions on that
[06:56] <froud> OK, just meinproc adds the header footer kde for free
[06:56] <froud> But no problem
[06:56] <froud> if it works dont fix it
[06:56] <mdke> yeah, we tried it for a while
[06:57] <froud> OK
[06:57] <mdke> I think it would be nice to add a kubuntu flavour footer actually
[06:57] <mdke> but right now we use the regular KDE header/footer
[06:59] <mdke> anyhow, I need to do some ironing, back later :)
[07:37] <jeffsch> froud: you are right, as usual
[07:37] <jeffsch> it looks like removing eol from each file is the best way
[07:38] <jeffsch> normaliz-space function will be pita
[07:38] <jeffsch> but is the <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> at the beginning of each file strictly necessary?
[07:39] <jeffsch> for eg https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/printing.xml
[07:40] <jeffsch> removing the xml declaration and all leading whitespace will solve the problem of leading whitespace in the output
[07:40] <jeffsch> it builds ok without the xml declaration
[08:00] <somerville32> You know you ubuntu too much when you start dreaming about it, lol
[08:01] <mdke> hi bhuvan
[08:01] <somerville32> I had a dream I made a commit to the SVN before running the validation script, there was an error, and I got in trouble, lol
[08:01] <bhuvan> hello mdke
[08:01] <mdke> somerville32: !!
[08:02] <mdke> bhuvan: I have started thinking about reorganising the server stuff a bit, what I'd like to do is to put it into a bit better categories instead of dividing into simply "networking" and "windows networking". The categories on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Server might be a place to start. Are you interested in helping out?
[08:02] <bhuvan> sure i can help
[08:03] <bhuvan> so, do you mean we should do this categorisation in the same document?
[08:03] <mdke> bhuvan: well, I've made a separate directory for it. But I'd like to just do a quick plan for the structure, e.g. on the wiki, before working on the document itself
[08:06] <bhuvan> ok; i think thats a good plan. may be, i can modify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide for finalising our plan?
[08:07] <mdke> bhuvan: sounds great to me.
[08:07] <bhuvan> ok; i'll modify and post it to our list before we do the real work in our repos
[08:08] <bhuvan> thanks for reminding me about this!
[08:08] <mdke> bhuvan: thanks. We should also delete the chapters Preface, Introduction, Installating and Package Management (I've done this in my local copy already), because these things either aren't appropriate or are elsewhere in the system docs
[08:08] <mdke> we can think about shipping a version of the complete guide in a separate package for server installations
[08:09] <bhuvan> hmm ok
[08:11] <bhuvan> i wouldn't mind removing those chapters, but i think it may make it incomplete or dependent on other documents for completeness (i may be wrong though)
[08:11] <mdke> that's the whole point, it will be suplemented by the existing documents dealing with package management and so on.
[08:12] <bhuvan> ok
[08:12] <mdke> so in yelp there will be:
[08:12] <mdke> Adding, Removing Applications
[08:12] <mdke> [...]  (lower down)
[08:12] <mdke> Running Server Applications
[08:13] <bhuvan> yeah, that sounds fine
[08:14] <bhuvan> so i think, we can remove those chapters any time even before we do the restructuring (if you already have one in local copy, please feel free to commit)
[08:14] <mdke> alright, I'll commit it now
[08:15] <bhuvan> thank you
[08:16] <bhuvan> bedtimes
[08:16] <mdke> good night :)
[08:16] <bhuvan> good night
[09:35] <froud> jeffsch: no the XML Declaration is not absolutely required in terms of proceeesing. However, some parsers will not know what to do and some editors will not know to save the file as UTF-8 if this is omitted.
[09:36] <froud> I think with eol removed the whitespace before and after should be solved, no? At least that is what I am seeing here.
[09:37] <froud> jeffsch: catch your answer later.
[09:37] <jeffsch> there's still the CR after the <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
[09:37] <jeffsch> k
[09:37] <froud> Hmm
[09:38] <froud> I am not seeing it in output from xmllint
[09:38] <froud> anyway, I dont think it will be critical if it is removed, it just wont be semantically correct
[09:39] <froud> I is off to bobo land (sleeeep), later
[09:40] <jeffsch> I am seeing it with xsltproc on printing.xml
[09:40] <jeffsch> ok, 'night