[04:23] <troy_s> greets elkbuntu
[07:17] <Winter-1> hey
[07:17] <familyfriendly> yo
[07:18] <Winter-1> but yea u want something great
[07:18] <familyfriendly> do you think we should still with the current colour scheme?
[07:19] <familyfriendly> vista and macos are going with more gunmetal looks
[07:20] <Winter-1> well i like the sleek black and white but at the same time i think of color for ubuntu so we should bring both to the table
[07:20] <familyfriendly> well i guess the brown tones come from that fact ubuntu has allot to do with the notion "humanity towards others"
[07:21] <Winter-1> yes
[07:21] <familyfriendly> so i def see a place for keeping the current scheme
[07:21] <Winter-1> see i wish i had photoshop so i could do some mock-ups
[07:22] <familyfriendly> what kinda mock-ups are you thinking of?
[07:22] <familyfriendly> a while back i play with colours
[07:22] <Winter-1> well i wanna go into PS and start making examples of what i want things to look like
[07:22] <Winter-1> tthen from there i could start creating it
[07:22] <Winter-1> but i want a plan
[07:23] <familyfriendly> what apps would you want to have as a starting point
[07:23] <familyfriendly> ?
[07:24] <Winter-1> ?
[07:24] <familyfriendly> as far as mock-ups are concerned, like would you want to just start with a wallpaper ... that kind of thing
[07:25] <Winter-1> i would start with windows and color and taskbar
[07:25] <Winter-1> i dont like how ubuntu is laid out
[07:25] <familyfriendly> ok, by windows you mean windown border?
[07:25] <Winter-1> yea
[07:26] <familyfriendly> ok
[07:26] <Winter-1> border button layout etc
[07:29] <Winter-1> i wish gnome would change over to the emerald theme engine
[07:30] <Winter-1> or at least ubuntu
[07:35] <BHSPitLappy> yawn
[07:35] <Winter-1> lol
[07:35] <BHSPitLappy> Winter-1, stop bitching about photoshop!
[07:36] <BHSPitLappy> name the task you're trying to do that hangs you up when you try it in gimp.
[07:36] <Winter-1> i dunno i just cant use it
[07:36] <BHSPitLappy> that doesn't make sense to me, though
[07:36] <BHSPitLappy> they're so similarly used
[07:37] <BHSPitLappy> make something in inkscape, then
[07:39] <familyfriendly> i actually dont like beryl
[07:39] <Winter-1> i do but dont
[07:44] <troy_s> familyfriendly:  well i guess the brown tones come from that fact ubuntu has allot to do with the notion "humanity towards others"
[07:44] <troy_s> you would think so, but it has more to do with sepia -- it was a happy accident
[07:47] <familyfriendly> really
[07:47] <troy_s> according to sab, yes.
[07:48] <troy_s> although i would agree with you
[07:48] <troy_s> it 'works' for the reason you mention
[07:48] <troy_s> although the 'ubuntu design' front is non-existent, so it is pure fluke.
[07:48] <familyfriendly> lol
[07:48] <familyfriendly> yea i agree
[07:48] <troy_s> it is horribly unfortunate
[07:49] <troy_s> but again, that sort of thing starts at the top
[07:49] <troy_s> _cohesive_ art and design just simply isn't tackled in the free software community the way code is.
[07:49] <troy_s> i think it will get there, the more attention the basic mechanics get attention (read tools)
[07:57] <familyfriendly> someone in i think it stems fromt he fact that ubuntu is more of aggregatior of projects, so artwork, particularly icons are by nature inconsistant ... but i think default background and borders could do with some work.
[07:59] <BHSPitLappy> it works for me, but if it could produce the same appeal that Apple products are known to deliver, or that Vista is said to have, so much the better
[07:59] <troy_s> rather everything needs a fundamental design plan.
[07:59] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy: that isn't going to happen without a solid plan
[07:59] <BHSPitLappy> mmhmm
[08:00] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy: Apple's design team is given a _lot_ of power.
[08:00] <BHSPitLappy> I actually really liked the earth tones approach
[08:00] <troy_s> and they do their job.
[08:00] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy: relating to what?
[08:00] <troy_s> earth tones and ubuntu is a _NO BRAINER_
[08:00] <BHSPitLappy> mmhmm...
[08:00] <troy_s> unfortunately, it will take apple and ms to do the bloody thing before sabdfl will believe it.
[08:00] <troy_s> everyone goes plastic, ubuntu should go earth.
[08:00] <BHSPitLappy> when I first switched to ubuntu, I was really pleased by the brownedness
[08:01] <troy_s> yep.  it is a wonderful spectrum if you build on it.
[08:01] <familyfriendly> my main complaint is that the default ubuntu them is really chunky
[08:01] <troy_s> indeed ;)
[08:01] <BHSPitLappy> although I feel the shift from there to orange, as well
[08:01] <familyfriendly> i dont like plastic either
[08:01] <troy_s> i agree with you 100% plastic is passee
[08:01] <BHSPitLappy> very vibrant
[08:01] <troy_s> very very very done.
[08:01] <familyfriendly> murrine is a good starting point in my opinion, but with diff cooursa
[08:01] <BHSPitLappy> makes the computer less mechanical
[08:02] <troy_s> too gloss
[08:02] <troy_s> murrine is just another glossy engine
[08:02] <troy_s> dborg__ has a wonderful engine in place in Lua, hopefully it will get the deserved attention.
[08:02] <BHSPitLappy> it's really a tricky field, design.
[08:02] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy: couldn't agree with you more.  although earth is generally not too vibrant -- more into the pastels.
[08:03] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy: everyone bikesheds about it, very few actually put the time in to study it.
[08:03] <troy_s> it seems everyone is an expert.
[08:03] <BHSPitLappy> troy_s, my wallpaper http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=48185
[08:03] <familyfriendly> well i like the squareness of murrine, im not really a fan of the rounded edges
[08:04] <familyfriendly> anywas i have t go
[08:04] <familyfriendly> ciao
[08:04] <BHSPitLappy> later...
[08:05] <troy_s> alas, i must too bed.
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> you know what would be nice?
[08:05] <troy_s> BHSPitLappy:  you should get involved with a theming project.
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> if a teacher or professor of a good design class pitched ubuntu as an assignment
[08:05] <BHSPitLappy> we might get some good stuff out of that ;)
[08:05] <troy_s> wouldn't matter
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> I'm aware
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> I dunno what I could offer a theming project.
[08:06] <troy_s> i could probably rally some folks like that, but ultimately it is sab's aesthetics, and he doesn't really work within the same parameters that we should be.
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> when I said "my wallpaper" I didn't mean it literally
[08:06] <troy_s> by theming i mean a project that works towards a goal.
[08:06] <troy_s> ah.
[08:06] <BHSPitLappy> yeah...
[08:07] <troy_s> well art and design needs more than folks who can push pixels or sketch.
[08:07] <BHSPitLappy> I pitched Edgy login/logout sounds
[08:07] <troy_s> it takes a full team with coding, sounds etc.
[08:07] <BHSPitLappy> they were latecomers, and I think sab wanted a different direction.
[08:07] <troy_s> i think we will eventually get there, but sabdfl needs to acknowledge that perhaps there are others out there who might handle the fort better than he.
[08:07] <BHSPitLappy> I'm adept at graphic art, but I'm more useful probably when it comes to music and composition.
[08:07] <troy_s> it might happen at some point.
[08:08] <BHSPitLappy> I was displeased with the edgy sound set.
[08:08] <troy_s> well the problem was that i was deeply interested in getting a 'sound department' going
[08:08] <BHSPitLappy> I have my share of nitpicks with the login/logout that was chosen
[08:08] <troy_s> and the takers were few.
[08:08] <BHSPitLappy> yeah
[08:08] <BHSPitLappy> I'm in the launchpad group
[08:08] <troy_s> unfortunately, when we developed a good deal of momentum
[08:09] <BHSPitLappy> in came the hammer?
[08:09] <troy_s> sabdfl decided to take the route he currently has.
[08:09] <BHSPitLappy> mmhmm.
[08:09] <troy_s> well the problem is that the entire system was designed around him
[08:09] <troy_s> to make decisions at checkpoints
[08:09] <BHSPitLappy> he's a fickle "leader".
[08:09] <troy_s> but alas, he simply doesn't know what to do.
[08:09] <troy_s> actually he is a damn bright guy with a great vision.
[08:09] <troy_s> that said, art and design aren't perhaps his suit.
[08:10] <troy_s> without sabdfl, Ubuntu would be zero.
[08:10] <BHSPitLappy> mmhmm
[08:10] <BHSPitLappy> and I'd be using mandriva or something else
[08:10] <troy_s> so for that, i utterly respect him.  that said, i also share my component of disagreements with him.
[08:10] <BHSPitLappy> he is, after all, a human being.
[08:10] <troy_s> at some point, perhaps the tide will turn a little.
[08:10] <troy_s> indeed.
[08:10] <troy_s> anyways, nice chat.  i must put the grey matter on a pillow.
[08:10] <troy_s> what is left of it.
[08:10] <BHSPitLappy> night
[08:10] <troy_s> night BHSPitLappy
[09:34] <familyfriendly> yoyoy
[10:13] <BHSPitLappy> yoyoyoyo
[10:55] <lapo> yo
[05:21] <coz_> morning all
[05:43] <TheSheep> http://morguefile.com/archive/?display=145617&
[05:43] <TheSheep> could make a nice wallpaper for ubuntu...
[08:47] <troy_s> TheSheep: Little literal.
[08:47] <troy_s> and quite contrasty
[08:47] <troy_s> in terms of functionality
[08:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: I had a similar one on my desktop for the last week for testing
[08:51] <troy_s> It is a tad on the contrasty.  Although it does play into savanna preference :)
[08:51] <troy_s> (That is probably at wikipedia if you don't know what it is)
[08:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=41252
[08:52] <troy_s> still too contrasty
[08:52] <troy_s> you should be able to move an icon or window across any area of the screen and have it legible / note window edges.
[08:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's why I mean -- it wans't bad on my eyes
[08:52] <troy_s> It is pretty
[08:52] <troy_s> but in terms of wallpaper might be heavy
[08:52] <troy_s> (just think about it plastered all over your walls in a home)
[08:53] <TheSheep> ah
[08:53] <TheSheep> maybe for login screen ;)
[08:54] <troy_s> I find that the analogy principle works well as you can quickly see how something gets a little 'heavy' when placed out of context and into another role
[08:57] <TheSheep> :)
[08:57] <TheSheep> troy_s: what do you think of those? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Desktop/Feisty/Incoming
[08:57] <troy_s> Opposite end of the spectrum in my opinion
[08:57] <troy_s> They communicate nothing.
[08:58] <troy_s> as they are basically a 'no desktop wallpaper' with a colour on them.
[09:00] <troy_s> Looks like josef is using metacity-2 extensions on the last screenshot
[09:00] <troy_s> metacity2 provides for six or seven buttons... too much in my opinion for a non power user.
[09:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's not metacity
[09:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's xfwm4
[09:01] <TheSheep> troy_s: and the bottom one is Beryl
[09:01] <troy_s> the six buttons would be the window manager though
[09:02] <troy_s> iirc
[09:02] <troy_s> it should at least be handled by it... as per metacity2.
[09:02] <TheSheep> troy_s: beryl, xfwm4 and metacity are different window managers
[09:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: actually, beryl uses a separate 'window decorator' called emerald for handling window decorations
[09:03] <troy_s> does beryl handle all of the window managing however?
[09:03] <troy_s> i was under the impression that it was more on top of it.
[09:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: no, it's a window manager
[09:03] <troy_s> interesting.
[09:04] <troy_s> seems foolish to accomplish something that silly with an entire window manager when something like e17 does much of that functionality without hardware accell.
[09:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: the point was to use hw accel, not to accomplish all that ;)
[09:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: myself, I use a hw-accelerated window manager with all the special effects disabled -- just because it's faster and easier on the cpu
[09:08] <troy_s> indeed
[09:08] <troy_s> Well if you care, we can accomplish most of that (aside from the antialising with the active root window / subjects)
[09:08] <troy_s> with metacity
[09:08] <troy_s> metacity 2 allows for a power user setup with more buttons
[09:09] <troy_s> (like sticky, shade/unshade, etc.)
[09:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: Can you code?
[09:10] <troy_s> Namely python
[09:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes
[09:10] <troy_s> Awsome
[09:10] <troy_s> Have you ever coded a python applet?
[09:10] <troy_s> for the panel?
[09:10] <TheSheep> no, I only have a lot of experience with web apps, roguelike games and gtk
[09:11] <troy_s> Do you know python?
[09:11] <TheSheep> *some gtk
[09:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes
[09:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://sheep.art.pl  <-- that's me
[09:11] <troy_s> I intend to use python for the panel applets for the countless reasons that make is viable.
[09:11] <troy_s> do you have the link for the applet tutorial in python?
[09:11] <troy_s> it would allow us to delve into interface issues without borking the rest of bun
[09:12] <TheSheep> http://www.pygtk.org/articles/applets_arturogf/
[09:13] <troy_s> Hey another warhammer fan :)
[09:13] <troy_s> nice to see.
[09:13] <troy_s> (covers up his horribly geek side again)
[09:13] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm more into necromunda actually...
[09:13] <TheSheep> http://www.gnome.org/~tvachon/doc/tutorial.html
[09:15] <troy_s> Great
[09:16] <troy_s> two steps basically -- the app syntax and the OAF file for the servers
[09:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: do you have any particular panels in mind?
[09:16] <troy_s> Well yes...
[09:16] <troy_s> let me pm you
[10:54] <BHSPitLappy> yo, familyfriendly
[11:59] <familyfriendly> howsit
[12:00] <BHSPitLappy> itsgood
[12:01] <familyfriendly> so is the art team active for feisty after edgy?
[12:02] <troy_s> No
[12:02] <troy_s> Not for the actual release anyways.
[12:03] <familyfriendly> hrmmm
[12:04] <troy_s> nature of the beast