/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/01/08/#ubuntu-doc.txt

mdkeI'll sort it out12:17
nixternalthanks12:17
somerville32Would Xubuntu docs have the bug?12:18
mdkeI'll look there too12:19
mdkedone12:25
mdkenixternal: looks like edubuntu aren't using any, so we'll leave that12:26
nixternalthank you12:32
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theCoremdke: ping02:50
mdketheCore: Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.02:50
theCoreuh, an auto-responder?02:50
theCorenevermind, then02:51
crimsunyou gave him a contentless ping02:51
crimsunin other words, don't do foo: ping02:52
crimsundo foo: ping, I need info on blah blah blah02:52
crimsunit's fairly annoying to come back, read backscroll, and find you were pinged but have no idea about what the ping was02:53
LaserJockis that what tollef's planet post was for?02:54
LaserJockI couldn't tell what you were supposed to do with it02:55
crimsunyes02:55
crimsunhe recently updated/fixed his irssi script (thanks to mdke, who found some bugs)02:56
mptStill needs wording work, apparently03:00
somerville32mdke: ping, can your script detect if my ping is not-contentless?03:30
somerville32magic03:30
LaserJockwell, I assume it just looks for a line with just "ping"03:34
somerville32Maybe I'll just start ponging people instead of pinging them03:53
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somerville32mdke: Can you approve my membership? Thanks :] 07:39
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mdkempt: I'll accept rewording suggestions09:13
mdkesomerville32: ok.09:13
somerville32mdke: thanks09:13
mptmdke, "(I'm not here right now, but ____ )" probably would work09:23
mptRhe brackets being roughly equivalent to that whirring noise that alerts you to the fact that you've reached an answering machine09:23
mdkempt: I thought of that, but what if I am here?09:23
mptThe brackets, rather09:23
=== mpt shrugs
mptoh09:24
mdkeok, I've thought of something09:24
mdkebrackets sounds good09:24
mptjust the brackets by themselves might be enough09:25
mptmdke, ping?09:25
mdkempt: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back.)09:25
=== mpt approves
mdkewhy thanks09:25
mdkempt: how's it going otherwise?09:26
mptLaunchpad's test suite is hideously slow09:26
mptApart from that, it's well09:26
mdkegood09:27
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mptsvn: Failed to add file 'ubuntu/C/newtoubuntu/windows-glossary.xml': object of the same name already exists11:21
=== mpt kicks subversion in the goolies
bhuvanmpt: does it happen when you do 'svn update'?11:30
mptyes11:31
mptI fixed it by removing the file manually, but I shouldn't have to11:31
=== mpt misses "bzr pull --overwrite"
mpt(though if I'd been merging into my own bzr branch instead of sending mdke a diff I wouldn't have had that problem in the first place)11:33
mptOw, yelp doesn't open pages any more11:33
mptEntity 'rsquo' not defined11:34
bhuvanok11:35
mptthat's strange11:35
mptThere seems to be an error in line 13 of gnome-menus-C.ent11:35
mptoh, missing ">" character11:36
mptAnyone want to commit that? :-)11:36
mptThis missing ">" character is at the end of line 1211:38
bhuvani'll do11:39
mptta11:40
bhuvanmpt: fixed in r363011:43
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jendamdke: ping02:22
mdkejenda: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)02:22
jendaheh02:22
jendamdke: who is in charge of the trademark policy page? Or, who are the people who have access? I reported this bug a month ago, and gave it a fair amount of time, because the page looks just terrible, and no one even touched it.02:23
jendahttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/7424702:23
UbugtuMalone bug 74247 in ubuntu-website "http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy errata" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 02:23
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mdkejenda: the problem is that not many people get bugmail about ubuntu-website. However, me assigning it to myself means that I'm going to do it07:42
jendamdke: ah, great newz. Thanks :)07:48
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mdkempt: nice patch, thanks.08:51
mdkempt: we can remove the "What's New Since Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper)" as upgrades dapper->feisty won't be a supported upgrade path I think (did we already discuss this?)08:52
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mptmdke, ok09:00
mdkempt: now we just need to figure out what to do with the Gnome stuff and the stuff about users/sudo09:01
mdkedunno if you have any thoughts on that already09:01
mptmdke, actually, I'd forgotten the previous train of thought I had about "What's new since Ubuntu 6.06"09:10
mptwhich went something like this09:10
mpt"Upgrades from 6.06 to the next LTS will be supported, but not 6.06 to 7.04, so it's not really relevant"09:11
mpt"yeah, but someone might do the supported upgrades from 6.06 -> 6.10 -> 7.04, and they won't spend enough time on 6.10 for 'What's new since 6.10' to be useful"09:12
mpt"Perhaps, but not enough people will do that for writing help for them to be useful"09:12
mpt"Oh, but, but, what about when the next LTS comes along and we *do* need that help? Wouldn't it be easier to compile it gradually, starting with the 6.10->7.04 changes, and building up from that?"09:13
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mptmdke, as for your other question, I think "Desktop Overview" will almost always be too distribution-specific for upstream to say anything useful about it09:20
mptFor example, it should begin with a screenshot overlaid with a bunch of numbered circles, and it will be pretty obvious if that screenshot isn't an Ubuntu one09:21
mpt"Desktop sessions" is written from the implementation looking up, rather than the user looking down, and probably needs a complete rewrite :-(09:23
mpt"Basic skills" makes sense, but needs much shortening09:25
=== mpt realizes that if you already have Ubuntu installed, the dual-booting section isn't really relevant either...
mdkempt: it might be relevant to the live cd.09:35
mdkebut still.09:35
nixternaloi!09:36
mdkeI wonder if those upstream things could be put into "Customising and Configuring your Desktop", as a top level topic, except basic skills, which could be in "New to Ubuntu 7.04"09:36
LaserJockumm, silly question, where is all this TBH stuff in the repo?09:36
mdkeLaserJock: ubuntu/C or kubuntu/C plus generic/server09:37
LaserJockoh wow, things have changed :-)09:37
mptmdke, yeah, quite a bit of the help should be different depending on whether you're running Ubuntu from the CD09:39
theCoreI am (trying) to design the new format for Project Mallard, so I would like your opinion how tags should be used. For example, which of those three ways to label a menu would you like better? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/870/09:39
nixternaltheCore: 3rd way09:40
mpttheCore, I don't think the format needs to distinguish between control types09:40
mptjust use <label> for all of them09:40
nixternalactually the 3d way needs a little tweaking09:40
mdkempt: you need a way to get the arrows09:40
mptand then have some element which works the way <menuchoice> does now, to put around them, that inserts arrows between them09:41
theCorewell, &arrow;09:41
mdkempt: yeah. Perhaps that is out of our scope for this cycle. I thought actually a nice idea would be to put the *whole* switching from windows guide onto the Winfoss install, so that it appears when the livecd is inserted on windows09:41
nixternal<menuchoice> automagically gives you the arrows09:41
mptwhich doesn't work solely for menu choices09:41
nixternalor &arrow;09:41
mptbut also for navigating through dialogs etc09:41
nixternalbut yeah what mpt just said09:41
mptmdke, that's a neat idea09:41
mdkempt: I'm going to chat to Henrik if I can find him09:42
nixternal<menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guisubmenu>Accessories</guisubmenu><guimenuitem>Synaptic Package Manager</guimenuitem></menuchoice>09:42
nixternalthat looks about right09:42
nixternaltheCore: planning on using <keywords> in each section?09:43
theCorenixternal: yep09:43
nixternalcool09:43
mpttheCore, so you could have something like <para>In Firefox, choose <guinav><label>Edit</label> <label>Preferences</label> <label>Security</label> <label>Settings</label></guinav>09:43
nixternali am trying it out with the kde docs, but need something other than htdig09:43
nixternalis <guinav> something new? i haven't seen that before in docbook09:44
nixternalor are you using a different dtd?09:44
mpt...</para>09:44
mptnixternal, we're talking about Mallard :-)09:44
mdkenixternal: he is trying to contribute to designing a new file format09:44
nixternalahhhh09:44
nixternalwhy can't you use docbook/xml or sgml?09:45
nixternali definitely like the shorter tags though09:45
mptbecause they suck!09:45
nixternalheh09:45
mptor to be more specific:09:45
mpthttp://live.gnome.org/ProjectMallard09:45
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theCorempt: I like your way09:45
nixternalso mallard isn't vaporware anymore i take it09:46
mdkenixternal: no, it still is!09:46
nixternalmdke: well ya, but i am seeing activity though, which is great09:46
theCorempt: but, what about gui buttons?09:46
mptnixternal, very very early design stages => vaporware09:46
mpttheCore, <label /> again09:46
mptIn my example above, "<label>Settings</label>" *is* a button09:47
theCorempt: I like the idea09:47
mptI cannot think of a reason to use different elements for labels of different controls, unless you want to style them somehow to look like the controls, but if you did that people would click them by mistake instead of the real controls09:48
mptanyway, time for me to exercise and breakfast and stuff, bbl09:48
theCorehmm... scriptable ...09:48
theCorenevermind09:49
mptIf you want actual buttons in help pages, fine, but not with a <label> element :-)09:49
mdkeok, we can put the Switching guide in with the winfoss09:51
mdkethat should be pretty great09:51
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nixternalman, the license section of the mallard doc is nuts10:02
mdkewriting their own license is wholly nuts10:07
LaserJockwhy is it that they can't use docbook?10:09
mdkebecause it's limited to a very stiff <book> or <article> structure10:09
mdkeplus, it's tag soup10:09
LaserJockI haven't quite made the connection from "Our doc system doesn't work well" to "We need a new license and markup language"10:10
mdkeI know the feeling, I posted to their list expressing that very opinion a while back10:10
nixternalme either LaserJock, but im sure when it is all said and done it will probably make more sense10:10
LaserJockso for things like TBH were you want to mix-n-match pages10:10
mdkeit's more difficult than it should be10:10
nixternalwhich is different than what the freedesktop help standard calls for as well10:11
mdkestill, part of the justification is simply that a paradigm shift will be beneficial to gaining contributors10:11
LaserJockinteresting10:11
LaserJocksort of like use saying "10:11
LaserJock"let's use the wiki for docs so the barrier is lower"10:12
mdkealso, a big overhaul gives the chance to do things properly10:12
nixternalthat is very true10:12
nixternali hope KDE does something similar for kde410:13
mdkethey need to get together10:13
nixternalare we dual licensing still with CC and FDL, or are we CC only now?10:13
=== mdke blinks
nixternalor do we have 5 licenses now?10:14
nixternal;p10:14
mdkenixternal: you know the answer, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License10:14
nixternalsomeone just asked me how many licenses were were using now10:14
nixternalso as i joke i posted his, and then went with the 5 license point10:15
LaserJockmdke: is it work noting on that page that the Packaging Guide is GPL? I doubt it matter much, but if somebody just grabs the whole repo or something10:16
LaserJocks/work/worth/10:16
mdkeLaserJock: sure10:16
LaserJockI hate being the exception, but I don't want to mislead anybody either10:17
nixternalusing the cc-by-sa allows us to incorporate sections of the book, but how does that work if we need to incorporate sections of kde or gnome docs?10:17
nixternalkde is fdl10:18
mdkenixternal: we can't incorporate them, but we can link to them10:18
mdkeor supply them as whole documents without modifying the license10:18
nixternalya, i figured linking would be the way to go10:19
mdkewe never could incorporate them, as a matter of fact10:19
nixternalbut for something like kubuntu customizing kcontrol and doing system settings instead, is slightly different the kde doc for it, which for us to use would need to be tweaked.10:19
mdkedo a patch on the package which provides the kde doc?10:20
mdkeor fork it and supply it as a separate document in kubuntu-docs10:21
nixternalwell the upstream version will always be different, but ya a fork is what i was thinking, but wasn't sure how the licensing works for it10:21
mdkeyou can ship the document, as long as you keep the license notice10:21
nixternalcould i take a fdl document, pull from it bits and pieces as needed, keep an fdl license as well as provide a cc-by-sa license (dual licensing it) and then use it?10:21
nixternalheh10:22
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mdkeno10:22
nixternalok10:22
nixternalkind of acting like a middle man with it, i can only dual license docs that i create then10:22
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mdkeor that are already dual licensed10:22
nixternalya10:22
nixternalthat's good to know, all of these licenses nowadays will make your head spin10:23
nixternalmuhaha, i can create upstream patches and apply them myself now :)10:24
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mptmdke, the term "tag soup" doesn't usually mean "far too many element types", it means things like "<foo> <bar> </foo> </bar>"10:25
mdkenixternal: for relatively small changes, a patch will be the way to go10:26
mdkempt: I've changed the definition to be sane10:26
mdke:(10:26
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nixternalnah mdke, i was referring to that i just received my KDE svn/bug/email package :)10:26
mptThe Web is famously tag soup, not because there are zillions of elements, but because browsers are resilient in the face of improperly nested elements10:27
mdkenixternal: I was referring to our earlier conversation about whether to fork or do a patch on the package10:27
nixternaloh oh10:27
mdkebest to patch the package that provides the document10:27
nixternalplus easier at the same time10:28
mdkewell, that depends on whether you understand package patch systems10:28
mdkeI guess you do10:28
nixternali hope i do10:28
nixternalotherwise my packages will break computers :)10:28
nixternali have 3 months to make MOTU, and the MOTUs seem to be on vacation10:29
mdkethey are just lazy. Get your whip out on LaserJock10:30
nixternalno doubt10:30
nixternalthank god for crimsun though, he has helped me out tremendously, although I think I am starting to wear on his nerves10:30
nixternalRSI break!10:31
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LaserJocknixternal: VACATION!?! ;-)10:34
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LaserJockmdke: does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License look ok?11:03
mdkeLaserJock: sure11:06
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mdkempt: I definitely think we can cram quite a lot of the upstream stuff into "Customising your desktop" as a top level topic11:31
mdkenot sure about the explanation of sudo and users/groups11:32
mdkemaybe they fit in there too actually11:32
mdkewill try and knock something out on that before bed11:32
mptmdke, users/groups is part of what I intended a top-level "Keeping your computer safe" category for11:41
mpt* Use a separate account for each user  * Use a firewall  * Lock the computer when you're away from it11:42
mptetc11:42
mdkempt: that sounds interesting11:48
willvdlcould it make sense to link a topic like that from more than one top-level category?11:49
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mdkewillvdl: if appropriate, sure11:50
mptOne thing I *nearly* did yesterday was include, in the "If you've been using Windows" contents page, a comment about including a list of those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Windows11:51
mptwhich would be a bit different from those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Mac11:51
mptetc11:51
mptso certainly there can be multiple links to the same topic11:51
mdkenod11:51
willvdlhence topic based context really helps I guess11:52
mdkempt: what program do you use for editing? It's lovely and tidy12:12
mptmdke, gedit12:13
mdkempt: really, any special plugins or do you do all that yourself?12:13
mptno special plug-ins12:14
mptI have a New Year's resolution to teach myself vim12:14
LaserJockI just use a bit of everything :/12:15
LaserJockwhich is probably why my .xml files don't always look consistent12:15
mdkempt: so you're wrapping the lines and indenting them yourself? that's very tidy12:15
=== mdke sees if he can copy that
mptIt's more paranoia than tidiness12:17
mptMy room is a mess, but having a messy room doesn't lead to validation errors12:17

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