[12:17] <mdke> I'll sort it out
[12:17] <nixternal> thanks
[12:18] <somerville32> Would Xubuntu docs have the bug?
[12:19] <mdke> I'll look there too
[12:25] <mdke> done
[12:26] <mdke> nixternal: looks like edubuntu aren't using any, so we'll leave that
[12:32] <nixternal> thank you
[02:50] <theCore> mdke: ping
[02:50] <mdke> theCore: Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.
[02:50] <theCore> uh, an auto-responder?
[02:51] <theCore> nevermind, then
[02:51] <crimsun> you gave him a contentless ping
[02:52] <crimsun> in other words, don't do foo: ping
[02:52] <crimsun> do foo: ping, I need info on blah blah blah
[02:53] <crimsun> it's fairly annoying to come back, read backscroll, and find you were pinged but have no idea about what the ping was
[02:54] <LaserJock> is that what tollef's planet post was for?
[02:55] <LaserJock> I couldn't tell what you were supposed to do with it
[02:55] <crimsun> yes
[02:56] <crimsun> he recently updated/fixed his irssi script (thanks to mdke, who found some bugs)
[03:00] <mpt> Still needs wording work, apparently
[03:30] <somerville32> mdke: ping, can your script detect if my ping is not-contentless?
[03:30] <somerville32> magic
[03:34] <LaserJock> well, I assume it just looks for a line with just "ping"
[03:53] <somerville32> Maybe I'll just start ponging people instead of pinging them
[07:39] <somerville32> mdke: Can you approve my membership? Thanks :] 
[09:13] <mdke> mpt: I'll accept rewording suggestions
[09:13] <mdke> somerville32: ok.
[09:13] <somerville32> mdke: thanks
[09:23] <mpt> mdke, "(I'm not here right now, but ____ )" probably would work
[09:23] <mpt> Rhe brackets being roughly equivalent to that whirring noise that alerts you to the fact that you've reached an answering machine
[09:23] <mdke> mpt: I thought of that, but what if I am here?
[09:23] <mpt> The brackets, rather
[09:24] <mpt> oh
[09:24] <mdke> ok, I've thought of something
[09:24] <mdke> brackets sounds good
[09:25] <mpt> just the brackets by themselves might be enough
[09:25] <mpt> mdke, ping?
[09:25] <mdke> mpt: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back.)
[09:25] <mdke> why thanks
[09:26] <mdke> mpt: how's it going otherwise?
[09:26] <mpt> Launchpad's test suite is hideously slow
[09:26] <mpt> Apart from that, it's well
[09:27] <mdke> good
[11:21] <mpt> svn: Failed to add file 'ubuntu/C/newtoubuntu/windows-glossary.xml': object of the same name already exists
[11:30] <bhuvan> mpt: does it happen when you do 'svn update'?
[11:31] <mpt> yes
[11:31] <mpt> I fixed it by removing the file manually, but I shouldn't have to
[11:33] <mpt> (though if I'd been merging into my own bzr branch instead of sending mdke a diff I wouldn't have had that problem in the first place)
[11:33] <mpt> Ow, yelp doesn't open pages any more
[11:34] <mpt> Entity 'rsquo' not defined
[11:35] <bhuvan> ok
[11:35] <mpt> that's strange
[11:35] <mpt> There seems to be an error in line 13 of gnome-menus-C.ent
[11:36] <mpt> oh, missing ">" character
[11:36] <mpt> Anyone want to commit that? :-)
[11:38] <mpt> This missing ">" character is at the end of line 12
[11:39] <bhuvan> i'll do
[11:40] <mpt> ta
[11:43] <bhuvan> mpt: fixed in r3630
[02:22] <jenda> mdke: ping
[02:22] <mdke> jenda: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
[02:22] <jenda> heh
[02:23] <jenda> mdke: who is in charge of the trademark policy page? Or, who are the people who have access? I reported this bug a month ago, and gave it a fair amount of time, because the page looks just terrible, and no one even touched it.
[02:23] <jenda> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/74247
[02:23] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 74247 in ubuntu-website "http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy errata" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
[07:42] <mdke> jenda: the problem is that not many people get bugmail about ubuntu-website. However, me assigning it to myself means that I'm going to do it
[07:48] <jenda> mdke: ah, great newz. Thanks :)
[08:51] <mdke> mpt: nice patch, thanks.
[08:52] <mdke> mpt: we can remove the "What's New Since Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper)" as upgrades dapper->feisty won't be a supported upgrade path I think (did we already discuss this?)
[09:00] <mpt> mdke, ok
[09:01] <mdke> mpt: now we just need to figure out what to do with the Gnome stuff and the stuff about users/sudo
[09:01] <mdke> dunno if you have any thoughts on that already
[09:10] <mpt> mdke, actually, I'd forgotten the previous train of thought I had about "What's new since Ubuntu 6.06"
[09:10] <mpt> which went something like this
[09:11] <mpt> "Upgrades from 6.06 to the next LTS will be supported, but not 6.06 to 7.04, so it's not really relevant"
[09:12] <mpt> "yeah, but someone might do the supported upgrades from 6.06 -> 6.10 -> 7.04, and they won't spend enough time on 6.10 for 'What's new since 6.10' to be useful"
[09:12] <mpt> "Perhaps, but not enough people will do that for writing help for them to be useful"
[09:13] <mpt> "Oh, but, but, what about when the next LTS comes along and we *do* need that help? Wouldn't it be easier to compile it gradually, starting with the 6.10->7.04 changes, and building up from that?"
[09:20] <mpt> mdke, as for your other question, I think "Desktop Overview" will almost always be too distribution-specific for upstream to say anything useful about it
[09:21] <mpt> For example, it should begin with a screenshot overlaid with a bunch of numbered circles, and it will be pretty obvious if that screenshot isn't an Ubuntu one
[09:23] <mpt> "Desktop sessions" is written from the implementation looking up, rather than the user looking down, and probably needs a complete rewrite :-(
[09:25] <mpt> "Basic skills" makes sense, but needs much shortening
[09:35] <mdke> mpt: it might be relevant to the live cd.
[09:35] <mdke> but still.
[09:36] <nixternal> oi!
[09:36] <mdke> I wonder if those upstream things could be put into "Customising and Configuring your Desktop", as a top level topic, except basic skills, which could be in "New to Ubuntu 7.04"
[09:36] <LaserJock> umm, silly question, where is all this TBH stuff in the repo?
[09:37] <mdke> LaserJock: ubuntu/C or kubuntu/C plus generic/server
[09:37] <LaserJock> oh wow, things have changed :-)
[09:39] <mpt> mdke, yeah, quite a bit of the help should be different depending on whether you're running Ubuntu from the CD
[09:39] <theCore> I am (trying) to design the new format for Project Mallard, so I would like your opinion how tags should be used. For example, which of those three ways to label a menu would you like better? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/870/
[09:40] <nixternal> theCore: 3rd way
[09:40] <mpt> theCore, I don't think the format needs to distinguish between control types
[09:40] <mpt> just use <label> for all of them
[09:40] <nixternal> actually the 3d way needs a little tweaking
[09:40] <mdke> mpt: you need a way to get the arrows
[09:41] <mpt> and then have some element which works the way <menuchoice> does now, to put around them, that inserts arrows between them
[09:41] <theCore> well, &arrow;
[09:41] <mdke> mpt: yeah. Perhaps that is out of our scope for this cycle. I thought actually a nice idea would be to put the *whole* switching from windows guide onto the Winfoss install, so that it appears when the livecd is inserted on windows
 automagically gives you the arrows
[09:41] <mpt> which doesn't work solely for menu choices
[09:41] <nixternal> or &arrow;
[09:41] <mpt> but also for navigating through dialogs etc
[09:41] <nixternal> but yeah what mpt just said
[09:41] <mpt> mdke, that's a neat idea
[09:42] <mdke> mpt: I'm going to chat to Henrik if I can find him
Synaptic Package Manager</guimenuitem></menuchoice>
[09:42] <nixternal> that looks about right
[09:43] <nixternal> theCore: planning on using <keywords> in each section?
[09:43] <theCore> nixternal: yep
[09:43] <nixternal> cool
[09:43] <mpt> theCore, so you could have something like <para>In Firefox, choose <guinav><label>Edit</label> <label>Preferences</label> <label>Security</label> <label>Settings</label></guinav>
[09:43] <nixternal> i am trying it out with the kde docs, but need something other than htdig
[09:44] <nixternal> is <guinav> something new? i haven't seen that before in docbook
[09:44] <nixternal> or are you using a different dtd?
[09:44] <mpt> ...</para>
[09:44] <mpt> nixternal, we're talking about Mallard :-)
[09:44] <mdke> nixternal: he is trying to contribute to designing a new file format
[09:44] <nixternal> ahhhh
[09:45] <nixternal> why can't you use docbook/xml or sgml?
[09:45] <nixternal> i definitely like the shorter tags though
[09:45] <mpt> because they suck!
[09:45] <nixternal> heh
[09:45] <mpt> or to be more specific:
[09:45] <mpt> http://live.gnome.org/ProjectMallard
[09:45] <theCore> mpt: I like your way
[09:46] <nixternal> so mallard isn't vaporware anymore i take it
[09:46] <mdke> nixternal: no, it still is!
[09:46] <nixternal> mdke: well ya, but i am seeing activity though, which is great
[09:46] <theCore> mpt: but, what about gui buttons?
[09:46] <mpt> nixternal, very very early design stages => vaporware
[09:46] <mpt> theCore, <label /> again
[09:47] <mpt> In my example above, "<label>Settings</label>" *is* a button
[09:47] <theCore> mpt: I like the idea
[09:48] <mpt> I cannot think of a reason to use different elements for labels of different controls, unless you want to style them somehow to look like the controls, but if you did that people would click them by mistake instead of the real controls
[09:48] <mpt> anyway, time for me to exercise and breakfast and stuff, bbl
[09:48] <theCore> hmm... scriptable ...
[09:49] <theCore> nevermind
[09:49] <mpt> If you want actual buttons in help pages, fine, but not with a <label> element :-)
[09:51] <mdke> ok, we can put the Switching guide in with the winfoss
[09:51] <mdke> that should be pretty great
[10:02] <nixternal> man, the license section of the mallard doc is nuts
[10:07] <mdke> writing their own license is wholly nuts
[10:09] <LaserJock> why is it that they can't use docbook?
[10:09] <mdke> because it's limited to a very stiff <book> or <article> structure
[10:09] <mdke> plus, it's tag soup
[10:10] <LaserJock> I haven't quite made the connection from "Our doc system doesn't work well" to "We need a new license and markup language"
[10:10] <mdke> I know the feeling, I posted to their list expressing that very opinion a while back
[10:10] <nixternal> me either LaserJock, but im sure when it is all said and done it will probably make more sense
[10:10] <LaserJock> so for things like TBH were you want to mix-n-match pages
[10:10] <mdke> it's more difficult than it should be
[10:11] <nixternal> which is different than what the freedesktop help standard calls for as well
[10:11] <mdke> still, part of the justification is simply that a paradigm shift will be beneficial to gaining contributors
[10:11] <LaserJock> interesting
[10:11] <LaserJock> sort of like use saying "
[10:12] <LaserJock> "let's use the wiki for docs so the barrier is lower"
[10:12] <mdke> also, a big overhaul gives the chance to do things properly
[10:12] <nixternal> that is very true
[10:13] <nixternal> i hope KDE does something similar for kde4
[10:13] <mdke> they need to get together
[10:13] <nixternal> are we dual licensing still with CC and FDL, or are we CC only now?
[10:14] <nixternal> or do we have 5 licenses now?
[10:14] <nixternal> ;p
[10:14] <mdke> nixternal: you know the answer, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License
[10:14] <nixternal> someone just asked me how many licenses were were using now
[10:15] <nixternal> so as i joke i posted his, and then went with the 5 license point
[10:16] <LaserJock> mdke: is it work noting on that page that the Packaging Guide is GPL? I doubt it matter much, but if somebody just grabs the whole repo or something
[10:16] <LaserJock> s/work/worth/
[10:16] <mdke> LaserJock: sure
[10:17] <LaserJock> I hate being the exception, but I don't want to mislead anybody either
[10:17] <nixternal> using the cc-by-sa allows us to incorporate sections of the book, but how does that work if we need to incorporate sections of kde or gnome docs?
[10:18] <nixternal> kde is fdl
[10:18] <mdke> nixternal: we can't incorporate them, but we can link to them
[10:18] <mdke> or supply them as whole documents without modifying the license
[10:19] <nixternal> ya, i figured linking would be the way to go
[10:19] <mdke> we never could incorporate them, as a matter of fact
[10:19] <nixternal> but for something like kubuntu customizing kcontrol and doing system settings instead, is slightly different the kde doc for it, which for us to use would need to be tweaked.
[10:20] <mdke> do a patch on the package which provides the kde doc?
[10:21] <mdke> or fork it and supply it as a separate document in kubuntu-docs
[10:21] <nixternal> well the upstream version will always be different, but ya a fork is what i was thinking, but wasn't sure how the licensing works for it
[10:21] <mdke> you can ship the document, as long as you keep the license notice
[10:21] <nixternal> could i take a fdl document, pull from it bits and pieces as needed, keep an fdl license as well as provide a cc-by-sa license (dual licensing it) and then use it?
[10:22] <nixternal> heh
[10:22] <mdke> no
[10:22] <nixternal> ok
[10:22] <nixternal> kind of acting like a middle man with it, i can only dual license docs that i create then
[10:22] <mdke> or that are already dual licensed
[10:22] <nixternal> ya
[10:23] <nixternal> that's good to know, all of these licenses nowadays will make your head spin
[10:24] <nixternal> muhaha, i can create upstream patches and apply them myself now :)
[10:25] <mpt> mdke, the term "tag soup" doesn't usually mean "far too many element types", it means things like "<foo> <bar> </foo> </bar>"
[10:26] <mdke> nixternal: for relatively small changes, a patch will be the way to go
[10:26] <mdke> mpt: I've changed the definition to be sane
[10:26] <mdke> :(
[10:26] <nixternal> nah mdke, i was referring to that i just received my KDE svn/bug/email package :)
[10:27] <mpt> The Web is famously tag soup, not because there are zillions of elements, but because browsers are resilient in the face of improperly nested elements
[10:27] <mdke> nixternal: I was referring to our earlier conversation about whether to fork or do a patch on the package
[10:27] <nixternal> oh oh
[10:27] <mdke> best to patch the package that provides the document
[10:28] <nixternal> plus easier at the same time
[10:28] <mdke> well, that depends on whether you understand package patch systems
[10:28] <mdke> I guess you do
[10:28] <nixternal> i hope i do
[10:28] <nixternal> otherwise my packages will break computers :)
[10:29] <nixternal> i have 3 months to make MOTU, and the MOTUs seem to be on vacation
[10:30] <mdke> they are just lazy. Get your whip out on LaserJock
[10:30] <nixternal> no doubt
[10:30] <nixternal> thank god for crimsun though, he has helped me out tremendously, although I think I am starting to wear on his nerves
[10:31] <nixternal> RSI break!
[10:34] <LaserJock> nixternal: VACATION!?! ;-)
[11:03] <LaserJock> mdke: does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License look ok?
[11:06] <mdke> LaserJock: sure
[11:31] <mdke> mpt: I definitely think we can cram quite a lot of the upstream stuff into "Customising your desktop" as a top level topic
[11:32] <mdke> not sure about the explanation of sudo and users/groups
[11:32] <mdke> maybe they fit in there too actually
[11:32] <mdke> will try and knock something out on that before bed
[11:41] <mpt> mdke, users/groups is part of what I intended a top-level "Keeping your computer safe" category for
[11:42] <mpt> * Use a separate account for each user  * Use a firewall  * Lock the computer when you're away from it
[11:42] <mpt> etc
[11:48] <mdke> mpt: that sounds interesting
[11:49] <willvdl> could it make sense to link a topic like that from more than one top-level category?
[11:50] <mdke> willvdl: if appropriate, sure
[11:51] <mpt> One thing I *nearly* did yesterday was include, in the "If you've been using Windows" contents page, a comment about including a list of those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Windows
[11:51] <mpt> which would be a bit different from those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Mac
[11:51] <mpt> etc
[11:51] <mpt> so certainly there can be multiple links to the same topic
[11:51] <mdke> nod
[11:52] <willvdl> hence topic based context really helps I guess
[12:12] <mdke> mpt: what program do you use for editing? It's lovely and tidy
[12:13] <mpt> mdke, gedit
[12:13] <mdke> mpt: really, any special plugins or do you do all that yourself?
[12:14] <mpt> no special plug-ins
[12:14] <mpt> I have a New Year's resolution to teach myself vim
[12:15] <LaserJock> I just use a bit of everything :/
[12:15] <LaserJock> which is probably why my .xml files don't always look consistent
[12:15] <mdke> mpt: so you're wrapping the lines and indenting them yourself? that's very tidy
[12:17] <mpt> It's more paranoia than tidiness
[12:17] <mpt> My room is a mess, but having a messy room doesn't lead to validation errors