structure [10:09] plus, it's tag soup [10:10] I haven't quite made the connection from "Our doc system doesn't work well" to "We need a new license and markup language" [10:10] I know the feeling, I posted to their list expressing that very opinion a while back [10:10] me either LaserJock, but im sure when it is all said and done it will probably make more sense [10:10] so for things like TBH were you want to mix-n-match pages [10:10] it's more difficult than it should be [10:11] which is different than what the freedesktop help standard calls for as well [10:11] still, part of the justification is simply that a paradigm shift will be beneficial to gaining contributors [10:11] interesting [10:11] sort of like use saying " [10:12] "let's use the wiki for docs so the barrier is lower" [10:12] also, a big overhaul gives the chance to do things properly [10:12] that is very true [10:13] i hope KDE does something similar for kde4 [10:13] they need to get together [10:13] are we dual licensing still with CC and FDL, or are we CC only now? === mdke blinks [10:14] or do we have 5 licenses now? [10:14] ;p [10:14] nixternal: you know the answer, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License [10:14] someone just asked me how many licenses were were using now [10:15] so as i joke i posted his, and then went with the 5 license point [10:16] mdke: is it work noting on that page that the Packaging Guide is GPL? I doubt it matter much, but if somebody just grabs the whole repo or something [10:16] s/work/worth/ [10:16] LaserJock: sure [10:17] I hate being the exception, but I don't want to mislead anybody either [10:17] using the cc-by-sa allows us to incorporate sections of the book, but how does that work if we need to incorporate sections of kde or gnome docs? [10:18] kde is fdl [10:18] nixternal: we can't incorporate them, but we can link to them [10:18] or supply them as whole documents without modifying the license [10:19] ya, i figured linking would be the way to go [10:19] we never could incorporate them, as a matter of fact [10:19] but for something like kubuntu customizing kcontrol and doing system settings instead, is slightly different the kde doc for it, which for us to use would need to be tweaked. [10:20] do a patch on the package which provides the kde doc? [10:21] or fork it and supply it as a separate document in kubuntu-docs [10:21] well the upstream version will always be different, but ya a fork is what i was thinking, but wasn't sure how the licensing works for it [10:21] you can ship the document, as long as you keep the license notice [10:21] could i take a fdl document, pull from it bits and pieces as needed, keep an fdl license as well as provide a cc-by-sa license (dual licensing it) and then use it? [10:22] heh === dsa [n=douglas@20158205072.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:22] no [10:22] ok [10:22] kind of acting like a middle man with it, i can only dual license docs that i create then === dsa [n=douglas@20158205072.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #ubuntu-doc ["Konversation] [10:22] or that are already dual licensed [10:22] ya [10:23] that's good to know, all of these licenses nowadays will make your head spin [10:24] muhaha, i can create upstream patches and apply them myself now :) === Jucato [n=jucato@124.106.180.127] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:25] mdke, the term "tag soup" doesn't usually mean "far too many element types", it means things like " " [10:26] nixternal: for relatively small changes, a patch will be the way to go [10:26] mpt: I've changed the definition to be sane [10:26] :( === zen-afk [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-238-72.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:26] nah mdke, i was referring to that i just received my KDE svn/bug/email package :) [10:27] The Web is famously tag soup, not because there are zillions of elements, but because browsers are resilient in the face of improperly nested elements [10:27] nixternal: I was referring to our earlier conversation about whether to fork or do a patch on the package [10:27] oh oh [10:27] best to patch the package that provides the document [10:28] plus easier at the same time [10:28] well, that depends on whether you understand package patch systems [10:28] I guess you do [10:28] i hope i do [10:28] otherwise my packages will break computers :) [10:29] i have 3 months to make MOTU, and the MOTUs seem to be on vacation [10:30] they are just lazy. Get your whip out on LaserJock [10:30] no doubt [10:30] thank god for crimsun though, he has helped me out tremendously, although I think I am starting to wear on his nerves [10:31] RSI break! === motin_ [n=motin@c-138472d5.09-32-73746f42.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:34] nixternal: VACATION!?! ;-) === willvdl [n=will@vc-196-207-41-253.3g.vodacom.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-238-72.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zen-afk [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-238-72.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === zenrox__ [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-238-72.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:03] mdke: does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License look ok? [11:06] LaserJock: sure === zenrox [n=zenrox@pool-71-115-238-72.spknwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === TLE [n=kenneth@217.74.211.14] has joined #ubuntu-doc === MatthewV [n=MatthewV@202.183.120.1] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:31] mpt: I definitely think we can cram quite a lot of the upstream stuff into "Customising your desktop" as a top level topic [11:32] not sure about the explanation of sudo and users/groups [11:32] maybe they fit in there too actually [11:32] will try and knock something out on that before bed [11:41] mdke, users/groups is part of what I intended a top-level "Keeping your computer safe" category for [11:42] * Use a separate account for each user * Use a firewall * Lock the computer when you're away from it [11:42] etc [11:48] mpt: that sounds interesting [11:49] could it make sense to link a topic like that from more than one top-level category? === xipietotec [n=jackfros@cpe-67-49-247-144.dc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:50] willvdl: if appropriate, sure [11:51] One thing I *nearly* did yesterday was include, in the "If you've been using Windows" contents page, a comment about including a list of those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Windows [11:51] which would be a bit different from those questions most commonly asked by people coming from Mac [11:51] etc [11:51] so certainly there can be multiple links to the same topic [11:51] nod [11:52] hence topic based context really helps I guess [12:12] mpt: what program do you use for editing? It's lovely and tidy [12:13] mdke, gedit [12:13] mpt: really, any special plugins or do you do all that yourself? [12:14] no special plug-ins [12:14] I have a New Year's resolution to teach myself vim [12:15] I just use a bit of everything :/ [12:15] which is probably why my .xml files don't always look consistent [12:15] mpt: so you're wrapping the lines and indenting them yourself? that's very tidy === mdke sees if he can copy that [12:17] It's more paranoia than tidiness [12:17] My room is a mess, but having a messy room doesn't lead to validation errors