[01:30] <coz_> is eeryon at the #ubuntu-meeting or here ?
[01:32] <troy_s> here
[01:32] <troy_s> isn't ubuntu meeting rather ... dry?
[01:33] <coz_> well it seems to be:)
[01:33] <coz_> mark shuttlwroth is there if that meand anything
[01:33] <troy_s> i mean it is sort of turning into a 'hey hire me' audition sequence.
[01:33] <troy_s> sad really.
[01:33] <troy_s> yah ... i know.
[01:33] <coz_> well some need that acceptance
[01:33] <coz_> go figure
[01:33] <troy_s> he has bigger issues than to be sitting in on bloody 'membership' meetings i would hope.
[01:34] <coz_> troy_s, this is hid baby remember
[01:34] <coz_> his
[01:35] <coz_> troy_s, are you a member of the art team
[01:35] <troy_s> yes
[01:35] <troy_s> not that there is one at this juncture
[01:35] <coz_> why is that?
[01:35] <troy_s> largely because of the kaibosh scenario that took place towards the end of edgy
[01:36] <coz_> troy_s, don;t know about that can you briefly explain it?
[01:36] <troy_s> that might take some time... :)
[01:36] <troy_s> the paper trail is pretty much on the wiki
[01:36] <coz_> just the just
[01:36] <troy_s> if you have any interest in it...
[01:36] <coz_> jist
[01:37] <coz_> ok
[01:37] <troy_s> well... pre -edgy there was little coordination, more or less.
[01:37] <troy_s> so we set out to build a team, get some groundwork in place, etc.
[01:37] <coz_> right
[01:37] <troy_s> largely with the attitude that the journey was the end.
[01:37] <troy_s> in terms of development
[01:37] <troy_s> get some established ties with the devs
[01:37] <troy_s> etc.
[01:37] <coz_> but
[01:38] <troy_s> and we do have a good deal of things like that in place now -- Frank and daniel banged out some artwork automation scripts
[01:38] <troy_s> etc.
[01:38] <troy_s> all through bzr, etc.
[01:38] <coz_> ok
[01:38] <troy_s> then, as a result of a lack of steering on the part of sabd's end of things (because he is busy, ... etc.)
[01:38] <troy_s> the communication gap became critical only at the end, when he decided to pay some attention to the development
[01:39] <coz_> troy_s, fogures deva are not artists
[01:39] <troy_s> long story short, he kaiboshes the work, tries to crank out something in the remaining 8 days or so etc.
[01:39] <coz_> devs
[01:39] <troy_s> and poof...
[01:39] <troy_s> decides that this term 'design and art' "development" will be with Cliff -- the fellow who 'designed' dapper
[01:39] <coz_> typical dev approach
[01:39] <troy_s> Make no mistake
[01:39] <troy_s> sab is a damn bright guy
[01:39] <troy_s> and i have the utmost respect for him
[01:40] <troy_s> but we are a ways apart in terms of art and design approach
[01:40] <coz_> he ws a dev he has no eye for art or its complexities
[01:40] <troy_s> further still, you have the existing politicking and such to deal with when you are in Free Software.
[01:40] <coz_> troy_s, tell me :)
[01:41] <troy_s> I'm a huge proponent of book research and education when it comes to art and design
[01:41] <troy_s> and many of my peers are the same way
[01:41] <coz_> troy_s same here
[01:41] <coz_> if i understand you
[01:42] <coz_> troy_s, so what is the next step going to be
[01:42] <troy_s> Well I spent five years studying art and design in university, coupled it with some professional work, and constantly try to upgrade my knowledge by reading / building a library of sorts etc.
[01:42] <coz_> troy_s,  same here
[01:42] <troy_s> _wonderful_ to hear.
[01:43] <troy_s> i think the art community will eventually 'arrive' in free software for ethical reasons
[01:43] <coz_> if you look you will see my name as a member also
[01:43] <troy_s> among others.
[01:43] <troy_s> hrm... launchpad?
[01:43] <coz_> yep
[01:43] <troy_s> launchpad link to your handle?
[01:43] <coz_> hold on
[01:44] <coz_> troy_s, https://launchpad.net/~cosimo321
[01:44] <troy_s> hrm... did you do the ubuntu stone?
[01:45] <coz_> no but I like thatone myself I had done may things that were posted on the foums but after this mornings fiasco I have removed al o my work
[01:45] <troy_s> Next step is a difficult one to state... personally I have simply decided to start proceeding along development lines that are more what I am used to.
[01:45] <troy_s> I have zero hope for Ubuntu art and design until there is a public push for it.
[01:46] <TheSheep> troy_s: out of curiosity, what is the "established" process for such things?
[01:46] <coz_> I have little hope because of the conservative views of the poeple on the forums and the ubuntu community
[01:46] <troy_s> Right now, it will for a while be caught up in this strange mix of trying to catch a glossy shiny plastic dragon that is OSx / Vista.
[01:47] <troy_s> What I am used to TheSheep?
[01:47] <coz_> troy_s, perhaps we should allow our work to be used only after purchase :)
[01:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes, how do the artists normally organise?
[01:47] <troy_s> Depends on the team
[01:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: name a few models
[01:47] <coz_> TheSheep, apparetly poorly I have never been approached ever
[01:48] <troy_s> Do you mean in the Ubuntu sphere?
[01:48] <troy_s> Or outside?
[01:48] <coz_> troy_s, ubuntu
[01:48] <troy_s> TheSheep sorry...
[01:48] <TheSheep> troy_s: no, I mean how it is done by proffessional artists, not necessarilly related to computers at all
[01:48] <troy_s> Ubuntu -- prior to edgy there was _zero_ team
[01:48] <troy_s> I think there were 16 members on Launchpad.
[01:48] <troy_s> So Edgy, in terms of a transitioning phase, did a good job to at least harness the interest.
[01:49] <troy_s> In terms of professional it depends... I am a big structure guy.
[01:49] <troy_s> I like to have a good solid foundation of aesthetics in place so that the language that artists and creative folks speak can dive in and start utilizing.
[01:50] <troy_s> But that is my personal take... Some Art Designers like to build scrapbooks of such, and build out from there.
[01:51] <troy_s> Some 'artists' in video gaming for example, are just 'paint a tree', 'now mask all these cars' etc.
[01:51] <coz_> TheSheep, are you asking how an artists gets his work into the public eye?
[01:51] <TheSheep> troy_s: computer insdustry has already pretty extensive "scrapbook" of ready methaphors and solutions :)
[01:51] <troy_s> But when I speak of workflow, I tend to speak of the top down approach -- less 'build the pieces' but 'see the forest'
[01:51] <troy_s> TheSheep uh... I guess so.
[01:52] <troy_s> Generally, I am very choosy about the creative work I get involved in.
[01:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: yes, and probably feel hurt when you can't do it right
[01:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: I have the same
[01:53] <troy_s> Well it is just that I can get pretty involved with it, and I like to discuss things and build around a direction.  If the folks involved aren't of that nature, I don't have much interest.
[01:54] <troy_s> Too many pixel pushers out there.  Solo soldier types.  Great for small projects, but larger ones -- you need to realize that you need a FULL team firing on FULL cylinders.
[01:54] <coz_> troy_s, interesting concept, you prefer team ability and lesser art ability that the other way around?
[01:55] <TheSheep> troy_s: I just went to talk about a new website design today with some client. Just when I entered, he welcomed me with "we've been thinking about the design, and we have some ideas"...
[01:55] <troy_s> TheSheep... eek.
[01:55] <TheSheep> troy_s: exactly, the most important thing is a large photo up front :)
[01:56] <coz_> TheSheep, what type of work do you do in the field
[01:56] <troy_s> coz_ Not exactly.  I think the idea of Free Design has a huge potential.  You need people with execution talent, people with differing abilities (documents / organization / etc.)
[01:56] <coz_> troy_s, agreed
[01:56] <troy_s> I just have faith in Free Design.  I don't think it has been actually 'accomplished' yet to any great capacity, but I believe it can and will happen with a little organization.
[01:56] <coz_> troy_s, I am not sure of your deginiation of "free design" however :)
[01:56] <TheSheep> coz_: I get paid for sysadmin and web designer work, I do some pixel-art game graphics on the side
[01:56] <coz_> definition
[01:57] <coz_> TheSheep, ok soundsgood
[01:57] <troy_s> Just take Free Software -- the collaborative upside of it with coordination -- and apply it to Art and Design.
[01:57] <TheSheep> troy_s: in this context -- I wonder how many Tango icons were made by jimmac alone :)
[01:58] <troy_s> That is part of the problem, when people cite this sort of thing they cite either Everaldo's work or Tango
[01:58] <troy_s> And ... well... it would be nice if it grew beyond that.
[01:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: I think that the guidelines -- similar to these posted on the tango project -- are the key
[01:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: *someone* has to make the basic decissions
[02:00] <TheSheep> troy_s: there is no democracy in art
[02:00] <coz_> TheSheep, as long as they have an art background
[02:00] <TheSheep> coz_: there exist good naturals too -- they just need supervision ;)
[02:00] <troy_s> TheSheep -- I think they can be evolutionary
[02:01] <coz_> TheSheep, yes but final decisions must be made by and only by those with art background
[02:01] <TheSheep> myself, I come from the computer science end, not from the art end
[02:01] <troy_s> TheSheep -- but yes, you can't just have sixteen people tugging in different directions.  That said, if you look at Tango and pulled a random sampling of say, 10 icons -- your average viewer would have a HELLUVA tough time telling that they were part of a 'set'.
[02:01] <troy_s> coz_ Probably disagree with you there... final decisions are made by your audience.
[02:02] <coz_> troy_s, i ws speaking in terms of ubuntu and the devs etc
[02:02] <troy_s> If you intend to make something for them that is.
[02:02] <troy_s> Not auteur theory of course.
[02:02] <troy_s> coz_ Devs have some damn good ideas about art and design
[02:02] <coz_> troy_s,  not enough for finalization in my opinion
[02:02] <TheSheep> especially when it comes to usefulness end :)
[02:02] <troy_s> I think the real problem is formalizing them, banging them against a good set of established goals / procedures, and evaluating them _solely_ against the items' role in Ubuntu.
[02:03] <troy_s> Bikeshedding is unavoidable.
[02:03] <coz_> well my tendencies dicatate that art people and only art people make the final decision as to what will and will not be included in ie ubuntu
[02:03] <TheSheep> even if you just move all your interface elements around the screen randomly, you **do** get a working layout after several years of heavy use.
[02:03] <troy_s> Which is why having a solid set of design guidelines lets you rather democratically and effectively make critical decisions without saying those AWFUL words:
[02:03] <troy_s> "I think..."
[02:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: LOLLLLLL
[02:04] <coz_> :)
[02:04] <troy_s> coz_ that will take a massive building of relationships and trust.
[02:04] <coz_> troy_s, it would I AGREE
[02:04] <BHSPitLappy> coz_, who are art people?
[02:05] <BHSPitLappy> am I an art person?
[02:05] <coz_> BHSPitLappy,  me Trae TheSheep
[02:05] <coz_> troy_s,
[02:05] <BHSPitLappy> are they only people who feel a certain way about something?
[02:05] <BHSPitLappy> just curious
[02:05] <coz_> they are the only people capable of making a reational decision about what is and is not included yed
[02:05] <coz_> yes
[02:05] <TheSheep> and I'm really bad at decissions
[02:06] <coz_> i am not
[02:06] <TheSheep> coz_: great
[02:06] <coz_> :)
[02:07] <coz_> BHSPitLappy, does that answer your question?
[02:07] <BHSPitLappy> those 4 people, got it.
[02:07] <troy_s> Eek
[02:07] <coz_> BHSPitLappy, what about you?
[02:08] <BHSPitLappy> what -about- me?
[02:08] <coz_> BHSPitLappy, did you get it
[02:08] <troy_s> I don't like the sounds of that.  If anyone actually pretends to know anything about computer art and design, they are fooling themselves.
[02:08] <coz_> troy_s, in what way?
[02:08] <troy_s> Not even MS and Apple know ... they try.  They do focus groups.  Then they revamp because of new technology, etc.
[02:08] <troy_s> Well it is a new frontier.  Rather like exploring space.
[02:08] <coz_> troy_s, yes exactly
[02:09] <coz_> troy_s, but in the final lap it is only an artist that can make the decisions about art
[02:09] <troy_s> I have seen the bloody computer shoot from command line Apple ] [ on which I learned how to code, to a massive library bound tool that spews art, literature, science, music, ... everything.
[02:10] <troy_s> I think a person with art training and eduction, with a solid grounded body of evidence, can make _A_ decision, but it doesn't assure success.  Once again, that audience does.
[02:10] <troy_s> Computers are all about interaction -- not exactly the realm of Goya, Mich, DaV, etc.
[02:10] <coz_> troy_s, true and the audience should have the final say so as to their approval of the orok or not
[02:10] <coz_> of the work or not
[02:11] <coz_> i am most definaltey the worst typist in any channel :)
[02:11] <troy_s> Lol.
[02:11] <troy_s> Quite a crown.
[02:11] <coz_> but I think all o fyu are fluent in typonese right/
[02:11] <TheSheep> it's amazing how much golden research there is available at msdn library that's totally unused either by ms or anyone else
[02:11] <TheSheep> I mean hard research and facts
[02:12] <troy_s> TheSheep -- hell why stop there?  Wikipedia has every darn art and design term I know.
[02:12] <coz_> TheSheep, about what .. the research I mean?
[02:12] <troy_s> TheSheep -- and countless dollars spent focus grouping.
[02:12] <TheSheep> coz_: user interface, cognition, presentation techniques
[02:12] <coz_> TheSheep, I see
[02:13] <coz_> well those are coprorate approaches however
[02:13] <troy_s> The problem with Microsoft is that their 'inventions' as a generality (and they have a massive R&D department) tends to try and make things that aren't already there.
[02:13] <troy_s> Tough to explain, but it seemed that the golden era of say, Xerox PARC, was consumed
[02:13] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's not about inventions, these are crappy, it's about researching how do things work
[02:14] <troy_s> with a group of artists (in the Romantic sense of the term) that built things around things that were already there.
[02:14] <coz_> TheSheep, well now we have ventured away form art
[02:14] <troy_s> I don't know
[02:14] <TheSheep> coz_: I don't think so. It connects.
[02:14] <troy_s> Usability and cognitive theory plays a pretty big role in computer art and design.
[02:15] <TheSheep> coz_: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you understand how people receive and process things, you can exploit it in art.
[02:15] <troy_s> Indeed.  I believe a little known fellow by the name of Leonardo did that.
[02:15] <coz_> TheSheep, toe role of the artis has always been to manipulate the viewer in some sense
[02:15] <TheSheep> coz_: and I don't mean just simple visual tricks
[02:15] <troy_s> With little devices like Phi and such.
[02:15] <TheSheep> troy_s: Phi?
[02:15] <coz_> hold on guys I have visitor brb
[02:16] <troy_s> phi is arguably the most powerful thing you will ever learn about art.
[02:16] <troy_s> The entire 'western' aesthetic is built upon it.
[02:16] <troy_s> Eek sheep
[02:16] <troy_s> Wiki phi quickly.
[02:16] <TheSheep> ah, golden division :)
[02:16] <troy_s> Phi is the cornerstone of just about everything.
[02:17] <troy_s> If you want a quick and dirty guide to learned western classical composition, divide your zone into thirds.
[02:17] <troy_s> Which, as a loose approximation, is phil
[02:17] <troy_s> not phil
[02:17] <troy_s> phi
[02:17] <troy_s> lol
[02:17] <TheSheep> :)
[02:17] <troy_s> Locate the 'gravity' centres of your objects on those zones of phi
[02:17] <TheSheep> yes, I know, I just didn't connect the term
[02:17] <coz_> troy_s, that concept is there only to be broken by the artis other wise it is useless by itself
[02:17] <troy_s> and you have immediate compositional classical 'acceptability'
[02:18] <troy_s> well you should probably at least know about it before you go ranting about composition -- how does that sound?
[02:18] <coz_> troy_s, better :)
[02:18] <TheSheep> "write as you speak"
[02:18] <troy_s> of course, it falls apart in true indigenous african tribal art for example
[02:18] <TheSheep> "don't speak as you write"
[02:19] <troy_s> even early portraiture went through evolution in terms of composition.
[02:19] <coz_> troy_s, you mean phi falls apart there ?
[02:19] <troy_s> Yes.
[02:19] <troy_s> Phi is a byproduct of the good old Ren and Romantic era.
[02:19] <troy_s> Or rather, capitalized on it in terms of composition.
[02:19] <troy_s> I would probably bet that the numerical value of Phi applies (in terms of Fibonacci) to compositional elemetns.
[02:19] <coz_> troy_s, you need to do more indepth studying that concept is iherantly human by nature all people have utilized regardels of it hidde nauter
[02:20] <troy_s> Although I can't say for certain.
[02:20] <TheSheep> the archeaologists working on Mayan sculptures coudn't sketch them -- they were too alien
[02:20] <troy_s> Like I said, I can't say one way or the other.  I know that compositionally it falls apart.
[02:20] <coz_> TheSheep, that i because they are hot artists
[02:20] <coz_> sorry brb
[02:20] <troy_s> There is a group that, for example, builds their composition around entirely symmetrical spheres.
[02:21] <troy_s> (Which to a western learned eye looks ... ... less than 'Widescreen Enhanced' :) )
[02:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: you need cultural background to feel comfortable with such art
[02:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: you need to grow up surrounded by it
[02:21] <troy_s> TheSheep: BINGO
[02:21] <troy_s> You need to learn it.
[02:22] <troy_s> Which is why developing for something such as Ubuntu has such amazing potential.  You need to account for those sorts of issues.
[02:22] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's one reason why computer art design is so slow -- *generations* need to pass until something becomes widely accepted
[02:23] <TheSheep> troy_s: technology develops fast, people's expectations and understanding -- not
[02:23] <TheSheep> troy_s: I think that's one of the reasons why all interfaces from roughly the same time are so similar
[02:23] <troy_s> TheSheep -- but take a look at the age of folks participating
[02:23] <troy_s> I have had _massively_ complicated discussions with say, someone like Pingunz -- who is 14!
[02:23] <troy_s> The times, they are a' changin'.
[02:23] <TheSheep> 90% of the edge gets forgotten, we only remember those who became mainstream
[02:24] <troy_s> Historically.
[02:24] <troy_s> But again, in the last 20 years one could argue that civilization has 'advanced' (eek if there is such a term) more than say, 400 years prior?
[02:24] <troy_s> lol
[02:24] <troy_s> Needless to say, turning this around again, we _need_ these discussions in Free Software.
[02:24] <troy_s> We need Free Design.
[02:25] <TheSheep> troy_s: personally, I think you can only talk about "advancement" when looking back, meaning "how similar we were to what we are now"
[02:25] <troy_s> We can't rely on companies to dictate this process... as it is far more ubiquitous than anyone could have forseen even 10 years ago.
[02:25] <troy_s> Yes.
[02:25] <troy_s> It gets tricky -- agreed.
[02:25] <TheSheep> well, opensource can explore much more paths at a time
[02:26] <TheSheep> yet, what counts in the end, is pure marketting
[02:26] <TheSheep> becsue interfaces need to be popular to be usable
[02:26] <troy_s> Wow.  Quite the statement.
[02:27] <TheSheep> troy_s: how do you know that blue-colored text is clickable on a web page?
[02:29] <troy_s> What about tabbed browsing?
[02:29] <troy_s> How about browsing using a browser at all?
[02:29] <troy_s> Virtual workspaces?
[02:29] <troy_s> ;)
[02:29] <troy_s> You might be overlooking a little ibt.
[02:29] <troy_s> bit.
[02:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: oh, opera had an equivalent of tabbed browsing before msie 3
[02:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: it didn't get popular until firefox
[02:29] <troy_s> but you get my point
[02:30] <troy_s> surely.  The Free Software community can develop things long before they hit mainstream.
[02:30] <troy_s> And in fact, with a little more attention and power, shape the 'mainstream'.
[02:30] <troy_s> As arguably Apache, OpenSSH, Firefox, etc all have.
[02:30] <TheSheep> troy_s: but some features have the "chicken and egg" problem
[02:30] <troy_s> We just need to keep the fight up regarding Art and Design.
[02:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: look at Raskin's designs -- he should have dominated the marked 5 years ago
[02:31] <troy_s> To be continued... Daughter time for me here.
[02:31] <troy_s> Now go bang out those sketches we talked about ;)
[02:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: but they need getting used to them -- and not gradually, you basically need cold turkey
[02:32] <TheSheep> same with dvorak keyboard, vim, etc.
[02:32] <troy_s> TheSHeep -- yes... the right 'crowd' needs to adopt it to make it sheik.  But again, that is a whole other dynamic.
[02:32] <troy_s> Now sketch :)
[02:33] <TheSheep> hah
[02:34] <troy_s> that's why i love you
[02:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: what is the main purpose of ubuntu? tv+newspaper+typewritter kind of device?
[02:35] <TheSheep> in the long-range view
[02:38] <troy_s> Wow.
[02:39] <troy_s> Computers are everything.  They are art, literature, science, music, communication, entertainment, ...
[02:39] <troy_s> In fact, there is little that they are not.
[04:59] <coz_> ok briefly back
[05:09] <coz_> so is everyone painting?
[05:10] <coz_> drawing?
[05:10] <coz_> sculpting?
[05:13] <coz_> troy_s, if  you are still here i would disagree and say that computers are just tools to get thoses things accomplished in
[05:14] <coz_> it is still the person who manipulates the tools that make the difference, otheriwse it is just a box with a viewing screen
[05:16] <TheSheep> coz_: it's the door to other world
[05:17] <coz_> TheSheep, well if the person creates that world
[05:17] <coz_> :)
[05:18] <TheSheep> coz_: with only computer alone -- yes. networked computer is a whole different deal
[05:18] <coz_> TheSheep, mm would you explaint that :)
[05:18] <TheSheep> coz_: you're no more the only interesting person in that world
[05:19] <coz_> TheSheep, so what the gourp is more imprtant than the individual?
[05:19] <coz_> group
[05:19] <TheSheep> coz_: who cares about importance? the things you do with your computer are not just your creations alone -- they can syrprise you
[05:20] <coz_> but i control my creations how can they surprise me?
[05:20] <TheSheep> coz_: when I just started programming, I had a terrible problem -- I've written games, but nobody wanted to play them, and they were no challenge for me, as I've writtem them
[05:20] <coz_> ok
[05:20] <TheSheep> coz_: once there are strangers inside your computer -- you can get surprised
[05:21] <coz_> TheSheep, by their individual rections!
[05:21] <coz_> ?
[05:21] <coz_> reactions
[05:21] <TheSheep> coz_: by anything *they& create
[05:22] <coz_> TheSheep, i am still not clear, very groggy no sleep, forgive me, but most of what I see everywhere from others is not reallt art it is.....well not art
[05:22] <TheSheep> coz_: imagine you're a writer, but your library consists only of books you've written yourself. pretty boring.
[05:23] <coz_> TheSheep, no that I don't understand
[05:23] <coz_> how can what you directly create be boring?
[05:23] <TheSheep> coz_: you run out of things to create fast
[05:23] <TheSheep> coz_: you begin repeating
[05:24] <coz_> TheSheep, mm no ..only a limited mind runs out of stuff... each work is a building block to the next so on and so on
[05:24] <TheSheep> coz_: soon your creations degenerate
[05:24] <coz_> not poassible if theyare true creations
[05:24] <coz_> they are intrinsically attached and one born from the other
[05:24] <TheSheep> coz_: well, ymmv
[05:25] <coz_> ymmv?????
[05:25] <coz_> bad with abbreviations :)
[05:25] <TheSheep> your mileage might vary
[05:25] <TheSheep> I always find things created by others more interesting
[05:25] <coz_> TheSheep, well i find good things created by others interesting not all things
[05:27] <TheSheep> isn't it great how different people are?
[05:27] <coz_> and I do rely on feedback by others as to what they think of something i have created at times
[05:27] <coz_> TheSheep, yeah it is !
[05:28] <coz_> TheSheep, but it is also nice that we are all the same as well
[05:28] <TheSheep> personally, I'm often obsessed with things I create -- until I finish them, then I often throw them away or reuse for something different
[05:28] <coz_> TheSheep, are you in the states/
[05:28] <TheSheep> coz_: no, Poland
[05:29] <coz_> TheSheep, ok then you may understand this more than an american will
[05:29] <coz_> when i have been to a fine museum with great works of art, the elicit in everyon that views them nearly identical reactions
[05:30] <coz_> i have watched as a large group of people all gather around on van gogh in a room as if it were a magnet
[05:30] <coz_> one van gogh
[05:30] <TheSheep> coz_: the reactions would be different if the people were there alone
[05:31] <coz_> no I have watched that as well
[05:31] <coz_> same painting one person same reaction
[05:31] <TheSheep> of course, a good artist will pass the message almost intact
[05:32] <TheSheep> but worse pieces are not as consistent
[05:32] <coz_> TheSheep, yes because herelizes that after all is said and done we are more alike than different
[05:32] <TheSheep> and sometimes they are meant to have different reactions
[05:32] <coz_> the well worse pieces rearly show up in a museum with a competant curator
[05:33] <coz_> TheSheep, I have seen people who draw extremely well and still believe they are an artist yet nothing they produce has any semblance to a piece of art
[05:33] <TheSheep> coz_: well, there are some mathematical proofs that I consider works of art, but anyone else would just shrug at
[05:34] <TheSheep> them
[05:34] <coz_> TheSheep, yes I agree the concept of fine art is in many fields not as universally seen or recognized as art but none the less materpieces
[05:35] <TheSheep> coz_: it's also a little closed circle -- to get to museum, a piece needs to be widely recognized as art, to be widely recognized as art, it must appear in museums
[05:36] <TheSheep> coz_: the things that appeal only to some people are not considered masterpieces, no matter how good they are.
[05:36] <coz_> TheSheep, well it must be recognized as art first then the artist is asked if he would approve the giving of a piece
[05:37] <coz_> TheSheep, well in the fine arts painting sculpture etc, it is clear what is and is not art by nearly everyone that vbiews it
 troy_s, if  you are still here i would disagree and say that computers are just tools to get thoses things accomplished in
 it is still the person who manipulates the tools that make the difference, otheriwse it is just a box with a viewing screen
[05:38] <troy_s> The fundamental problem with that is we are gradually 'migrating' into this frontier
[05:38] <coz_> troy_s, the frontier?
[05:38] <troy_s> It _was_ a tool, and MS and Apple would have you believe that it is an expensive gadget -- it somehow validates them as 'brokers' of this gadget
[05:38] <troy_s> Yes.  Look at us here...
[05:38] <coz_> yeah?
[05:38] <troy_s> Two people, who, less than 30 years ago, would never have met each other.
[05:39] <TheSheep> heh, I basically live in a computer -- work, play, learn
[05:39] <troy_s> The computer is far more than a simple tool.
[05:39] <troy_s> Exactly.
[05:39] <coz_> well no it is stilla tools a magnificent tool for beginning communications etc but none the less a tool
[05:39] <troy_s> Which is why it is all the more important to drive Free Software into the future.  It is more than simple 'get MS and Apple' out of our houses, it is forging a new world without "This Click Brought To You By Pepsi"
[05:39] <troy_s> It is far more than communications.
[05:39] <coz_> yes I meant that
[05:39] <troy_s> There are many things that you cannot experience _without_ a computer.
[05:40] <coz_> mmm troy_s ok such as what?
[05:40] <troy_s> It delivers art, music, entertainment, but it also
[05:40] <troy_s> facilitates science
[05:40] <coz_> so far tools
[05:40] <coz_> yes
[05:40] <troy_s> drives future art (permitting people who otherwise couldn't utilize a brush for example)
[05:40] <troy_s> etc.
[05:40] <troy_s> We are built on tools.
[05:40] <coz_> still a tool
[05:40] <troy_s> So is a wedge
[05:40] <coz_> yes
[05:40] <troy_s> So is a pen
[05:40] <coz_> yes
[05:41] <troy_s> So is a brain
[05:41] <coz_> no
[05:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: ever read Lem? :)
[05:41] <troy_s> The point is that we are fundamentally ourselves based on the tools that society has created.
[05:41] <coz_> a brain is what allows you to have the ability to build the tools and to utilize them
[05:41] <troy_s> (how about that neechee guy?)
[05:41] <coz_> neechee guy?
[05:41] <troy_s> Is there a clear division between a brain and a computer?
[05:42] <coz_> yes because the brain is you and the computer you built by way of you
[05:42] <TheSheep> my ~ is part of me
[05:42] <troy_s> The real matter is that we are actually discussing such lofty ideals around a computer -- a 'tool' -- but perhaps the last tool we will ever need to invent.
[05:42] <coz_> take it out of your head and what is left
[05:42] <TheSheep> including large part of memory
[05:42] <coz_> ?/
[05:42] <TheSheep> coz_: take any organ out and what is left? ;)
[05:43] <coz_> the rest including the brain
[05:43] <troy_s> By the year 2018, according to Ray Kurzweil and some conservative mathmatics, the _average_ desktop computer will have exceeded the processing and capacity of the human brain.
[05:43] <troy_s> Is that something you want dictated and controlled by Sony, Apple, Microsoft?
[05:43] <coz_> troy_s, maybe but still a tool
[05:43] <troy_s> Take two minds apart
[05:43] <troy_s> and you lose all sorts of things.
[05:43] <coz_> ok
[05:43] <troy_s> We are tools.
[05:43] <troy_s> (I am a tool :) )
[05:43] <coz_> what do you mean take 2 minda part??
[05:43] <troy_s> Look at the Egyptians.
[05:43] <coz_> ok
[05:43] <troy_s> Built pyramids using whips and a few hundred of those tools ;)
[05:44] <troy_s> It is a semantic division not worth making.
[05:44] <coz_> yes
[05:44] <troy_s> As arguably, _everything_ is a tool.   Even food on some level.
[05:44] <troy_s> Getting back to art though,
[05:45] <coz_> yes art
[05:45] <troy_s> you made a statement regarding 'artists should make those decisions' -- as someone who has studied art, you would know, that the division between art and science is a late 20th century division.
[05:45] <TheSheep> actually, there only 4 kinds of objects -- things to eat, things to mate with, things to run away from and rocks
[05:45] <coz_> yes they are actually 2 elements of the human condition that prgress in tnadum
[05:46] <troy_s> Lol sheep
[05:46] <troy_s> ROCKS
[05:46] <troy_s> sharp rocks
[05:47] <troy_s> The earlier "free thinkers" were very 'jack of all trades' often practicing art, music, mathematics, science, etc.
[05:47] <troy_s> I guess DaV would probably be a rather good example of such, but Lord Byron, Francisco Bacon, to name a few, would also fall into that class.
[05:48] <coz_> becasue the art "mind' is not chined to one experience
[05:48] <coz_> chained
[05:48] <TheSheep> today's science is very limited to what's provable by experiment, but it goes away slowly too.
[05:48] <troy_s> Well again, it was late 20th century
[05:48] <troy_s> ok out for a bit boys.
[05:48] <troy_s> chat soon.
[05:48] <coz_> ok let me tell you what I believe about art and science they are the two pillars tha hold the roof over a society
[05:49] <coz_> when On pillar cracks the other does as well and the society falls
[05:49] <coz_> the imprtance of art and it critical inclusion in society has been poorly recognized in the past 2 centuries
[05:49] <TheSheep> what one society considers a fall, others consider rise
[05:50] <coz_> TheSheep, the rising one ahs two intact pillars
[05:50] <coz_> the US is something like 14th globaslly for education
[05:51] <coz_> one of the critical reasons for that is that the educational system here believes that most people are verbal in essence and not visual
[05:51] <coz_> they have consistently fallen in the listing for decades
[05:51] <coz_> without art and science the civilization falls
[05:52] <TheSheep> coz_: the problem in this scale is that you can no longer judge "better" and "worse" independently, because what one society considers better, other views as worse (we usually consider things more similar to our culture better, and the more distant -- evil)
[05:52] <coz_> TheSheep, to an extewnt I believ e you may be right but in the whole picture of civilization i would disagree they all the same elements in common
[05:53] <TheSheep> coz_: what we can call an end of cyvilization, the people living just after that might consider a revolution
[05:53] <TheSheep> coz_: we just selectively pick the common elements that fit our view
[05:53] <TheSheep> coz_: and discard the ones that don't fit
[05:54] <TheSheep> coz_: like the ideals of democracy -- every single Greek had slaves, isn't it funny?
[05:54] <coz_> there si always a cycle that has ocured with societies throughout time, yes this generation thks this way the next rebels that thinking
[05:55] <coz_> and the imprtant things of one become the fivious of the other
[05:55] <coz_> frivikous
[05:55] <TheSheep> the farther away a civilisation or society is, the more different it is -- the more primitive and "evil" we consider it
[05:55] <coz_> typonese i am fluent in:)
[05:55] <TheSheep> it's the same with intelligence
[05:55] <coz_> TheSheep, well that concept is ignorance not anything else
[05:56] <coz_> if we view it as evil that is ignorance
[05:56] <TheSheep> we consider intelligent those animals, that think and behave similar to us
[05:56] <troy_s> Quite astute.
[05:56] <TheSheep> the more different an animal is, the more stupid we consider it
[05:56] <troy_s> It is indeed a relative world... Einstein proved that many moons ago, we blew up a bunch of people to solidify its truth, and we still have yet to accept it philosophically.
[05:57] <TheSheep> while some octopods can solve complicated problems
[05:57] <coz_> TheSheep, I have not seen that approach for some time what I have seen is that the furtuer away a species is from mamanals the less we trust it because we have no foundation to undersatnd its point of view a lsnake for instance
[05:57] <troy_s> We either consider it stupid or we eat it.
[05:57] <TheSheep> troy_s: usually both :)
[05:58] <coz_> lol
[05:58] <coz_> this is all fine talk but really not nesecary in the arts
[05:59] <TheSheep> coz_: what's necessary in arts then?
[05:59] <coz_> TheSheep, ability and talent
[05:59] <troy_s> Erm... ability is training.
[05:59] <coz_> and they do not necesarily go hand in hand
[05:59] <troy_s> How about execution?
[06:00] <troy_s> Sometimes the catalyst for proper execution isn't at all the agent conducting it.
[06:00] <coz_> troy_s, execution si the culmination of the talent and ability combined
[06:00] <coz_> i used to have arguments with some fo the art profs at CMU
[06:00] <troy_s> Hardly.  I know many _extremely_ talented folks who can't generate anything of a sizable body because they struggle with the execution.
[06:00] <coz_> they insisted that composition was the act of creation
[06:00] <troy_s> Composition, too, is learned.
[06:00] <coz_> i insisted that it ws the final work
[06:01] <TheSheep> coz_: how do you recognize art? it *says* something
[06:01] <coz_> just as mozart had his compositions so does the artis
[06:02] <coz_> TheSheep, there are rules to an extent that diferenciate an excellent executyed drawing perfect in every detail form a work of art which may not be perfect at all
[06:02] <TheSheep> it says more than can be communicated normally -- by resonating with you
[06:03] <TheSheep> then there is the art created by the mentally ill -- which sometimes is just disturbing, and sometimes just too alien to resonate
[06:03] <coz_> TheSheep, as it would in the next viewer as well
[06:03] <coz_> i don't know if that would be considered actual art but rather expresions
[06:04] <TheSheep> coz_: now, I think that you can recognize an artist by the fact that he has something to "say"
[06:04] <coz_> visually yes
[06:04] <TheSheep> coz_: mentally, the exact medium is irrelevant
[06:04] <coz_> yes a musical compoistion same thing
[06:04] <TheSheep> coz_: there are artist -- massagers
[06:05] <TheSheep> :)
[06:05] <coz_> well now you cross a fine line from a skilled crafts man and an artist
[06:05] <TheSheep> nah, craftsman just does his job -- he doesn't say anything
[06:06] <coz_> well a potter acn throw a thousands pots with not one of themn being art
[06:06] <TheSheep> he can do the job well or bad, but there is nothing more in it
[06:06] <coz_> exactly thus a massager
[06:06] <coz_> it is good or it isn't did he do the job correctly or not
[06:07] <TheSheep> but there are massager artists who turned their craft into art
[06:07] <coz_> unlikely
[06:07] <coz_> craft cannot be art
[06:07] <coz_> first
[06:07] <coz_> it is craft
[06:07] <coz_> nonthing more
[06:08] <coz_> it is a skill that can be done well or poorly
[06:08] <TheSheep> yes, we use that word to say "work that doesn;t contain art"
[06:08] <coz_> a great programmer and poor one
[06:08] <TheSheep> coz_: ooh, there are artist programmers and there are dumb craftsmen
[06:08] <coz_> TheSheep,  yes i ws about to qaulify that stement :)
[06:08] <coz_> caght myself with that one
[06:09] <TheSheep> there are also dumb programmer artists and good craftsmen, of course
[06:09] <TheSheep> all varietes
[06:09] <coz_> yes but a massger no
[06:09] <coz_> a magician no
[06:09] <TheSheep> heh
[06:10] <TheSheep> coz_: dancer?
[06:10] <coz_> absolutely
[06:10] <TheSheep> coz_: most dancers are just craftsmen, tools in the hands of the art director
[06:11] <coz_> but there is an art to the expression of dance that goes beyond ecpression and becomes art to the viewing ausiences great ballet dancers how many have yo heard of
[06:11] <TheSheep> as with any craft
[06:12] <coz_> well a person who makes baskets  i cant imagine it becoming art other than by art dealers who ssay it is
[06:13] <TheSheep> coz_: that's because some crafts require much specialistic knowledge to be able to really see the results
[06:13] <coz_> TheSheep, well being as tired as i am i cant argue too much with you ::))
[06:13] <TheSheep> coz_: only when you know something about making baskets, you can appreciate the subtle things that make a basket a piece of art
[06:14] <TheSheep> sorry, I'm too forcible
[06:14] <TheSheep> that's because of strong beliefs, I guess
[06:14] <coz_> TheSheep, a baslet will be a basket unless it has become the last remaining atifact of apeople who have dissapeared and even then it is more of a find than art
[06:15] <coz_> I did a series of african masks that found to be a real form of art by african tribes
[06:16] <coz_> not only did they have the sills necesary to create the masks but they were used to express an dinfluence the viewers of the ceramonies
[06:17] <coz_> but in the final view they were still a craft an important one and after the series was finished ai realized that they are just baskets
[06:17] <TheSheep> coz_: the art is not in the object itself
[06:17] <TheSheep> coz_: consider things that can be easily copied
[06:18] <coz_> TheSheep, the look can be copied not the content
[06:18] <TheSheep> coz_: is the act of copying -- creating a piece of art?
[06:18] <coz_> no
[06:19] <coz_> the composition has already been finished ... is the conductor and the orchestra  mozart?
[06:19] <TheSheep> coz_: it's possible to copy objects atom by atom -- make them identical with precission impossible for our senses
[06:19] <TheSheep> coz_: which one is a copy and which one original then?
[06:19] <coz_> not a painting please i don't want to be alinve if that happens nothing will have meaning then
[06:20] <TheSheep> anything goes
[06:20] <coz_> TheSheep,  well in that case there is also the theroy of entropy when lconing something so there will be differences on the atomic level that will eventually show up visually
[06:21] <TheSheep> coz_: yes, but they will show on the original and on the copy -- not identical, but still how do you tell which one is the copy?
[06:21] <coz_> by scrutiny
[06:22] <coz_> how many forgers have copies great works of art down to the origins of the pigments yet they were found out sooner or later and later mainly becasue of the money involved
[06:23] <TheSheep> coz_: and how many of the destroyed copies were in fact originals, falsely claimed copies?
[06:23] <coz_> prbaly none and none of the forgeries are destroyd either
[06:23] <coz_> they are a testament to ingenuity
[06:24] <coz_> but not art they are a curiosity but still not the original
[06:24] <TheSheep> coz_: what about digital music? it can be copied losslessly
[06:24] <coz_> yes
[06:24] <TheSheep> coz_: or any other digital art
[06:24] <coz_> yes
[06:24] <TheSheep> or books, poems, notes
[06:24] <coz_> yes
[06:24] <TheSheep> which one is the original?
[06:25] <coz_> but not in the origianl hand writing
[06:25] <TheSheep> coz_: what if the books was typed at a computer?
[06:25] <coz_> you can copy anything but you did not creat it
[06:25] <coz_> and the creator, thankfully in our society , is generallt cpyrighted
[06:26] <TheSheep> don't get me started on copy rights :)
[06:26] <coz_> TheSheep,  I hold over 37 copyrights at this typing session
[06:26] <TheSheep> coz_: in fact much more
[06:26] <coz_> ??
[06:26] <TheSheep> coz_: according to USA law, *anything* you created is copyrighted to you
[06:27] <TheSheep> coz_: without any need to register it
[06:27] <TheSheep> coz_: you can claim the copy right at any moment
[06:27] <coz_> TheSheep, yes to an extent in that by law it is copywritten but a copyright affords other perks like free legal service if you want to sue the copyer
[06:29] <TheSheep> coz_: lets get back to creation
[06:29] <coz_> ok that must be a sore spot for you
[06:30] <coz_> sorry
[06:30] <TheSheep> :)
[06:31] <TheSheep> coz_: I should be going to bed slowly
[06:31] <TheSheep> coz_: the sun is rising
[06:31] <coz_> me too guy :)
[06:31] <coz_> sun is rising?? where are you again europe?
[06:31] <TheSheep> thanks for the chat
[06:31] <coz_> no problems
[06:31] <TheSheep> coz_: Poland
[06:31] <coz_> that right sorry ai am tired
[06:32] <coz_> ok sleep well guy
[06:32] <TheSheep> sweett dreams
[06:32] <coz_> ok
[11:27] <lapo> hi
[01:56] <lizardking_> Hello artworker, oransoda-look is now on lanchpad, but I have some problem with launchpad
[01:57] <lizardking_> https://launchpad.net/oransoda-look
[01:58] <lizardking_> https://launchpad.net/~iacopo-masi/+branch/oransoda-look/main here the error
[05:43] <lapo> yo dborg
[05:44] <lapo> dborg: news about lua engine or scratchpad (or <insert cool software here> :-))?
[06:03] <troy_s> Lua is in the next push from Daniel
[06:03] <troy_s> greets lapo!@
[06:14] <lapo> yo troy_s
[09:01] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: are you there?
[09:07] <Jmak> I am here
[09:11] <TheSheep> hi Jmak !
[09:11] <Jmak> Hi
[09:12] <TheSheep> Jmak: anything to do for xubuntu?
[09:13] <Jmak> Now we are discussing liven up the desktop but nothing is sure yet
[09:13] <Jmak> Looking for some good looking icon theme
[09:16] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: i am here
[09:16] <TuxCrafter> missed the message:-D
[09:17] <Jmak> Ok, I checked out the zen icons, I am not impressed
[09:17] <TuxCrafter> now lets analyze the problems around the xubuntu desktop
[09:17] <TheSheep> Jmak: I've done some asking on #xubuntu and around, and people do seem to prefer the xfce default layout, with the large centered panel at the bottom, or at least don't mind it
[09:18] <Jmak> I know but jani thinks we should go with the gnome layout
[09:18] <TuxCrafter> first rule we make: never mess the default icons, people are afraid of changes
[09:18] <TheSheep> Jmak: if you want to make new icons, best concentrate on the ones that are visible by default + folders
[09:18] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: agreed
[09:19] <Jmak> What do you suggest?
[09:19] <TuxCrafter> what do think is best in this face
[09:19] <TuxCrafter> fase
[09:19] <Jmak> I like dream linus icons but I noticed some incosistencies
[09:20] <Jmak> Do you know what icons do they use?
[09:20] <TuxCrafter> we can make a system them lets us easily change the way everything is displayed
[09:20] <TuxCrafter> like icons, desktop layout
[09:20] <TuxCrafter> so no real programming just layout and icons
[09:21] <TuxCrafter> we have tango rules
[09:21] <TuxCrafter> that we can use
[09:21] <troy_s> greetings jmak
[09:21] <TuxCrafter> but we can use more
[09:21] <troy_s> ltns
[09:21] <Jmak> Hi
[09:22] <Jmak> I suggested to jani to clean up the theme folder from the prehistoric themes and leave no more than 10
[09:22] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: when i look at the default menu of xubuntu there are apps with no icons
[09:22] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: something like gnome's integrated themes?
[09:22] <TuxCrafter> also to change the layout
[09:23] <TuxCrafter> instantly go to the layout of dreamlinux or zenwalk
[09:23] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I think that not all the menu entries should really have icons -- some should have the icons removed
[09:23] <Jmak> What layout? Desktop
[09:23] <TuxCrafter> or whatever
[09:23] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: only leave icons for the main apps
[09:23] <TuxCrafter> it think it it really ugly to have apps with no icons
[09:24] <TuxCrafter> when you look at zenwalk every app has it own icons
[09:24] <Jmak> I think we a re the only gnome style xfce layout and we have to take adventage out of it
[09:24] <TuxCrafter> yes of cource
[09:24] <Jmak> Should I make icons?
[09:24] <TheSheep> personally, I think it's pretty ugly and unusable to have a mix of undistinguishable colorful icons everywhere
[09:24] <TuxCrafter> exactly
[09:24] <TheSheep> if there are more than 4-5 icons in a group, they become meaningless
[09:24] <Jmak> Agree
[09:25] <TuxCrafter> so the icons should match
[09:25] <TheSheep> so there should be fewer icons :)
[09:25] <Jmak> Have to follow the tango guidelines
[09:25] <TuxCrafter> and disticueable (how do I say that i am not englisch
[09:26] <TuxCrafter> different form each other
[09:26] <TuxCrafter> why less icons why not better one?
[09:26] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: that's oxymoron
[09:26] <TuxCrafter> ?
[09:27] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: they either match or are distinct
[09:27] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: can't have both, at least not on large scale
[09:27] <TuxCrafter> they should have the same look and feel like a set
[09:27] <TuxCrafter> like with tango and still diffrent
[09:28] <TuxCrafter> different
[09:28] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: can we at least dim in the menus the icons for less important apps?
[09:28] <Jmak> I can look at the tango guidlines to see  Ican do something
[09:28] <TuxCrafter> like the paste and copy icon you not it is a set but still difrent
[09:28] <TuxCrafter> how do you mean? do you want to remove them
[09:29] <TuxCrafter> I want to add some nice icons there
[09:29] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: remove them, or make them less stick out -- for example, make them grayscale
[09:29] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: they hurt usability
[09:29] <TuxCrafter> but what is wrong with nice icons? Jmak do you think we should remove more icons?
[09:30] <TuxCrafter> it believe the printing tool should have a icon with a printer
[09:30] <Jmak> We use what comes with the icon set
[09:30] <TuxCrafter> and Xfburn should have a nice icon with a cdburner or a cd
[09:30] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: anywhere you have more than 4 icons in a group, they stop being icons and start to be just a mess of colors and shapes -- that's how human perception works. A group of more than 4-5 elements is perceived as a whole
[09:31] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: shall I quote scientific papers from Apple and Microsoft?
[09:32] <TuxCrafter> so you say that if i open the app-finder tool and every app has a icon people can not distinguish them?
[09:32] <Jmak> I like the suse icons
[09:33] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: no, I say they stop looking at the icons -- they don't have a function anymore
[09:33] <TuxCrafter> Yes post some info, apple uses a lot icons
[09:33] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: icons can be used to higlight important entries in the menu and to ease the navigation
[09:33] <TheSheep> ok
[09:34] <TuxCrafter> I believe you should be able to look at the icon and know what the program should do
[09:35] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: of course, but if you have 10+ icons in a menu, you don't look at each and every one sepearately
[09:35] <TuxCrafter> so tho cut you have a scissor
[09:35] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: yuo just see a mass of colored objects
[09:35] <TuxCrafter> you had a article about that?
[09:36] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: a couple, looking for them now
[09:36] <TuxCrafter> Jmak He is going to undermine everything i want to do :-D I want to have nice icons everywere but he want to remove them :-D
[09:38] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: nice icons are still important
[09:38] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you make a new exit icon :-D the door is hideous
[09:38] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: you can consentrate on the important ones -- web browser, text processor, etc.
[09:38] <Jmak> I think to have the home and the computer icons should be on the desktop because the avarage user uses them
[09:38] <Jmak> I look into it
[09:38] <TuxCrafter> agree
[09:39] <TheSheep> Jmak: or just put them on the large panel on the bottom ;)
[09:39] <TuxCrafter> also what tools do you use
[09:39] <TuxCrafter> inktscap
[09:39] <TuxCrafter> xala
[09:39] <TuxCrafter> xara
[09:39] <Jmak> I dont know jani agree to that, he look a t thing a bit conservatively
[09:40] <TuxCrafter> I personally don't have links to folders, but i am not a avarage user i am a advanced user
[09:40] <Jmak> We have to look at things from the avarage user point of view
[09:41] <TuxCrafter> that is what i mean
[09:41] <TheSheep> if you put the home icon somewhere on the panels, you have it solved and as a bonus you don't need that 'show desktop' button that much
[09:41] <TuxCrafter> you have to think about the average users mind
[09:41] <Jmak> And everyone so far i know uses lots of desktop icons
[09:42] <TuxCrafter> indeed realy a lot of them, but i don't
[09:42] <Jmak> Including myself because i am lazy and i put evrything on the desktop
[09:42] <TuxCrafter> but if i set someone to work with xubntu they don't have a idea of were to start :-D
[09:42] <TuxCrafter> everyting is alien
[09:43] <Jmak> That is why i suggested the menu button
[09:43] <Jmak> But jani said it was not viable
[09:43] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: we are going to set up some configuration scrips that you can run and changes your icons windows etcetra
[09:43] <Jmak> I didn't quite understood why
[09:44] <Jmak> I am not a programmer
[09:44] <TuxCrafter> I am
[09:44] <TuxCrafter> thats why we work togheter
[09:44] <TuxCrafter> i do the scripting
[09:44] <TuxCrafter> you do the graphical
[09:44] <TuxCrafter> I have read a total gimp book
[09:44] <Jmak> So what am i suppose todo
[09:45] <TuxCrafter> You can make nice looking desktops
[09:45] <TuxCrafter> and learn me what you changes
[09:45] <TuxCrafter> so I can automate it procces
[09:45] <TuxCrafter> so that there will be a script
[09:46] <Jmak> What exactly
[09:46] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: here's one paper to start reading, I'll provide some more up to date ones soon :)
[09:46] <TuxCrafter> that the average user can use to change the looks
[09:46] <TheSheep> http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Miller/
[09:47] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep: Thanks, And I understand what you mean by information processing and that the human is able to distinguish no more than 5 elements fast
[09:48] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I'm not against icons in principle. I just don't like them packed en masse all together
[09:48] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: do you have a zenwalk desktop at you command
[09:48] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: maybe there could be some separators added in the menus -- but they are automaticlaly generated...
[09:49] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: I wan't to show you some examples
[09:49] <Jmak> Sounds as a good reading i bookmarded it
[09:49] <Jmak> ok
[09:49] <TuxCrafter> separators are the key and grouping of element
[09:50] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep: I totally see how we can implement it!
[09:50] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: but also removing or dimming the less important, "helper" apps could help -- especially the ones that are not normally called from the menu
[09:50] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: like the image viewer
[09:51] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: or document viewer
[09:51] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: or media player
[09:51] <TuxCrafter> Yes, or magnification or collorchange when moudseover
[09:51] <TuxCrafter> mouse hover
[09:51] <TheSheep> well, actually the last one is alone in his submenu...
[09:52] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: well, special effects are not important to me
[09:52] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: gaim and xarchiver could be dimmed too
[09:53] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: and the orage calendar
[09:54] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep: do you now think the grouping of apps like Office, Graphics and the apps that come after that are distinguishable
[09:54] <TuxCrafter> by the icons
[09:54] <TuxCrafter> there are mostly in groups <7
[09:55] <TheSheep> right, my menu differs from the default a little ;)
[09:55] <BHSPitMonkey> ahoy
[09:55] <TheSheep> hi BHSPitMonkey
[09:56] <BHSPitMonkey> yo
[09:56] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you thell me when a app uses a tango style icon, a scalable icon, or a icon that gomes with the apps
[09:56] <Jmak> Not sure
[09:56] <TuxCrafter> can you give me some docu on how xfce nows with icon to use by with app etcetra
[09:57] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you become the master in the xfce icon system
[09:57] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep: do you know who knows more about xfce icons
[09:57] <Jmak> what do you mean master
[09:57] <TuxCrafter> the man that knows the stuff
[09:58] <TuxCrafter> :-P
[09:58] <Jmak> I am not that familiar with the icon use
[09:58] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: it first checks in the current theme. if found, the icons for specified size are preffered -- if not found, then the closest one is scalled. If not found in the theme, the fallback themes are searched. The last fallback is always the hicolor theme. If still not found, /usr/share/picmaps is tried.
[09:58] <TheSheep> pixmaps, I mean
[09:59] <TuxCrafter> ok and that is like the tango specs
[09:59] <TuxCrafter> where is the documentation about this behaviour
[10:01] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: freedesktop.org
[10:01] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: and gtk.org
[10:03] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: do you got it freedesktop.org http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html
[10:05] <TuxCrafter> now we can find out how everything behaves like it does that is a good step
[10:05] <Jmak> I bookmarked it
[10:05] <TheSheep> -_-
[10:06] <TheSheep> I have no more questions
[10:09] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep had some good ideas to increase visible usability. But that will need xfce programming to be implemented. and will raise protested. It is good to do that in a further fase
[10:09] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep can you live with that
[10:10] <TuxCrafter> first do some basic fixing that to to bigger stuff that needs programming
[10:10] <TuxCrafter> that should be than
[10:11] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I don't think *my* propositions require additional programming
[10:11] <TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I have it set up like that in my menu
[10:11] <TuxCrafter> screen
[10:12] <TuxCrafter> I am thinking about separators, changing icons on priority, maybe magnification
[10:16] <TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you live with the current tango style ?
[10:16] <TuxCrafter> or can you point me other icon sets you do prefer
[10:19] <Jmak> Until we dont find a better one live with it
[10:20] <Jmak> But  the gray tango would definately go better with the artwork than the blue one
[10:23] <TuxCrafter> ok, I suggest this you are going to fix every out of place ugly icon you can find with a new one that match the tango look
[10:23] <Jmak> I see what i can do
[10:24] <TuxCrafter> you also have to do some to documenting, else now body cant help you
[10:24] <TuxCrafter> you have to document everything you changes
[10:24] <Jmak> what documenting
[10:25] <TuxCrafter> example: where did you find the new icon, what app and file is changes
[10:25] <TuxCrafter> etcetra
[10:25] <TuxCrafter> we are not talking about new artwork here
[10:26] <TuxCrafter> you can use the artwork of dreamlinux, zenwalk ...
[10:26] <TuxCrafter> creating new stuff is a next fase
[10:27] <TuxCrafter> get a group of people together that are responsable of the ubuntu icons, xunutu icons, tango developers, zenwalk dreamlinux..
[10:28] <TuxCrafter> I you have made some changes with documentation you create a zip file with all new icons and file in it
[10:28] <TuxCrafter> that you can send to me
[10:28] <TuxCrafter> i will create a script that will change a default install to the new looks
[10:30] <Jmak> TuxCrafter, I have to go now because i have thilngs to do, talk to you other time
[10:30] <TuxCrafter> Ok, but what do you think about it
[10:30] <TuxCrafter> come up with some ideas
[10:36] <TuxCrafter> TheSheep: are you there?
[10:36] <Jmak> I think about what I can do
[10:36] <Jmak> bye
[10:36] <TuxCrafter> bye and succes
[10:52] <lapo> hi
[10:54] <TuxCrafter> I am also going
[10:54] <TuxCrafter> bye