[01:49] <chuckh> hi Troy, I'm going to run through your steps for bzr.  Thinking of running it on Edgy.  Your run down should still apply pretty closely don't you think?
[02:18] <chuckh> troy_s: Well, looks like I'll get it.  Right now it's just sitting there doing not much of anything.  Maybe it's usually this slow, I guess I wouldn't know.
[02:24] <troy_s> sorry
[02:25] <troy_s> i only get flagged when you type my full irc name troy_s
[02:25] <troy_s> greets by the way chuckh
[02:26] <troy_s> Chuckles?
[02:26] <chuckh> greetings.  Well, lets see.  It's sitting at phase 0/4 and has been
[02:26] <troy_s> if you get a handle on mastering bzr checkout
[02:26] <troy_s> ok
[02:26] <troy_s> weird...
[02:26] <troy_s> it shouldn't be taking quite that long.
[02:27] <troy_s> are you trying that blubuntu sample i sent?
[02:27] <chuckh> no, it's been 5 min
[02:27] <troy_s> _way_ too long
[02:27] <troy_s> ctrl c it...
[02:27] <troy_s> lets see if i can resolve the issue... blubuntu?
[02:27] <chuckh> at present legacyhuman though I had tried blubuntu and had the same results
[02:28] <troy_s> weird.
[02:28] <troy_s> is fetch showing a progress bar?
[02:29] <troy_s> it should show 1/4 with a progress bar.
[02:29] <chuckh> yes but it's blank
[02:29] <chuckh> 0/4 with a blank bar
[02:29] <chuckh> this is on Edgy, would it matter?
[02:29] <troy_s> ok... i dont think you require to register your ssh key
[02:29] <troy_s> no
[02:29] <troy_s> i am on feisty...
[02:29] <troy_s> oh crap
[02:29] <troy_s> erm
[02:29] <troy_s> maybe
[02:29] <troy_s> but i doubt it.
[02:29] <troy_s> i think i pulled from feisty on edgy etc.
[02:30] <troy_s> oh damn
[02:30] <troy_s> you might need to issue a bzr init
[02:30] <troy_s> as your first go before you get tumbling...
[02:30] <troy_s> so try
[02:30] <chuckh> just like that
[02:30] <troy_s> bzr init
[02:30] <troy_s> then the pull
[02:30] <troy_s> yeah give it a shot
[02:30] <chuckh> waiting
[02:30] <troy_s> tell me if it still stalls at 1/4
[02:31] <troy_s> you just recently apt-got bzr right?
[02:31] <chuckh> even just getting to that stage takes forever
[02:31] <troy_s> so you are toying with the newest repo version i take it.
[02:31] <troy_s> it can.
[02:31] <troy_s> i don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but it does sometimes take a while.
[02:31] <chuckh> got an error.  ubuntu directory exists.  I'll remove it and try again.
[02:31] <troy_s> ah
[02:31] <troy_s> yeah just rm-rf it
[02:32] <troy_s> in fact, if you are going to bother, you might as well checkout the legacy human then you can apply your patch
[02:33] <chuckh> that is what I was thinking of doing.  I'm still at 0/4 with a blank progress bar.
[02:34] <troy_s> well wtf?
[02:34] <troy_s> shouldn't take that long.
[02:34] <troy_s> give it a minute then we sort it out.
[02:34] <troy_s> usually the network lights blink during that
[02:34] <troy_s> are yours?
[02:35] <chuckh> well, I can tell the traffic is zip.  If they are it's from something else.
[02:39] <troy_s> let me test the legacy-human link
[02:39] <troy_s> where is the bzr location you are using for it?
[02:39] <chuckh> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
[02:40] <chuckh> I grabbed it off launchpad
[02:41] <troy_s> okie trying it...
[02:41] <troy_s> nope... leeches right away for me.
[02:41] <troy_s> something strange going in at your end.
[02:41] <troy_s> in another term, see if anything is in your ~/ubuntu directory
[02:42] <chuckh> got an error finally.
[02:42] <chuckh> bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError:
[02:42] <troy_s> wow
[02:43] <troy_s> that is a problem... i wonder if there are some strange depends -- you just did apt-get install bzr and that was all eh?
[02:43] <chuckh> came from python.  Let me try another machine.  I may have a strange build environment here.
[02:43] <troy_s> try removing it then re apt-get it.
[02:43] <troy_s> yes...
[02:43] <troy_s> very well a python issue!
[02:43] <troy_s> i'll be around chuck, going to play a card game with my daughter for a few moments.
[02:43] <troy_s> see if you can fix your python issue.
[02:43] <troy_s> then i'll show you how to push
[02:46] <chuckh> worked on another machine that's more of a default setup
[02:46] <chuckh> almost missed it because it was so fast.
[02:46] <chuckh> ;)
[02:56] <troy_s> so chuckh, whilst i am playing, have a peek over the
[02:56] <troy_s> structure
[02:57] <troy_s> you can also pull like this "bzr checkout <Source> <dest>"
[02:57] <chuckh> ok
[02:57] <chuckh> that'll be needed
[02:58] <z_diver> troy_s, It's chuck again on the machine with the working bzr install.  I've verified the gtkrc works on Fiesty.
[02:58] <z_diver> But Legacy Human isn't there anymore.
[02:58] <troy_s> ???
[02:59] <troy_s> legacy human isn't in that checkout?
[02:59] <z_diver> yeah, but I don't think it's installed by default at least
[03:00] <troy_s> it is probalby in extra themes
[03:00] <troy_s> needless to say, you can apply your fix
[03:00] <z_diver> the checkout worked fine though.
[03:00] <z_diver> so what's the best way to go about it.
[03:01] <troy_s> it is very simple
[03:01] <troy_s> just change the file in question
[03:01] <troy_s> bzr add basically will put a full list of files
[03:04] <z_diver> troy_s, bzr add <path to project on launchpad>?
[03:19] <troy_s> ok
[03:19] <troy_s> so back
[03:19] <troy_s> lets assume we have dir foobar
[03:19] <troy_s> bzr init
[03:19] <troy_s> do a bzr whoami to see who you are registered as
[03:19] <troy_s> okie?
[03:20] <troy_s> is the information correct?, if not, follow the instructions 'bzr whoami 'Joe Blow <j.b@gorg.com>'
[03:20] <troy_s> okie z_diver ?
[03:20] <troy_s> assuming we have say
[03:20] <troy_s> ~/foobar
[03:20] <troy_s> as your project directory
[03:20] <troy_s> with subfiles a, b and c
[03:20] <troy_s> bzr will ONLY track
[03:20] <troy_s> files added via bzr add
[03:21] <troy_s> which means that for an existing branch, you need do nothing UNLESS you are adding a fresh file
[03:21] <troy_s> in your case, you will probably just update files for the first bit
[03:21] <troy_s> which means that bzr already knows what belongs in that package
[03:22] <z_diver> i'm here now
[03:24] <z_diver> troy_s, whoami comes out correct, I ran bzr add <the_gtkrc_file_in_question>
[03:25] <troy_s> ok
[03:25] <troy_s> erm
[03:25] <troy_s> you don't need to add it
[03:25] <troy_s> because technically it is already part of the download
[03:26] <troy_s> follow me?
[03:26] <z_diver> k
[03:26] <troy_s> you pulled it, so you know that bzr already knows abou tit
[03:26] <troy_s> so first thing
[03:26] <troy_s> do you have an ssh public key registered at launchpad?
[03:26] <z_diver> probably not
[03:26] <troy_s> that is the only thing you will require to publish to launchpad's bazaar
[03:26] <troy_s> ok... go to your launchpad page
[03:27] <troy_s> to generate a key, we'll use ssh keygen
[03:27] <troy_s> erm
[03:27] <troy_s> ssh-keygen
[03:27] <z_diver> MY launchpad page?
[03:27] <troy_s> yes
[03:28] <troy_s> what is your launchpad logon?
[03:28] <troy_s> let me look
[03:28] <z_diver> chuck@lagunadata.com
[03:28] <troy_s> what is your launchpad id?
[03:28] <troy_s> as in launchpad.net/~?
[03:28] <troy_s> mine for example, is launchpad.net/~troy-sobotka
[03:29] <troy_s> ah got you
[03:29] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~chuck-lagunadata
[03:29] <troy_s> okie?
[03:29] <troy_s> so your id right now is set to
[03:29] <troy_s> chuck-lagunadata
[03:29] <troy_s> okie?
[03:29] <troy_s> go there, on the left pane you will see your ssh and gpg keys
[03:29] <troy_s> for now, select ssh
[03:30] <troy_s> and we will input a key
[03:30] <troy_s> the public half
[03:31] <troy_s> got it?
[03:31] <z_diver> yes
[03:31] <troy_s> z_diver: you there yet?
[03:31] <z_diver> yep
[03:31] <z_diver> I've made keys, getting the public
[03:31] <troy_s> wow...
[03:31] <troy_s> ok
[03:31] <troy_s> so just put your public ssh key (id_rsa.pub or whatever from .ssh)
[03:33] <troy_s> when you have your published ssh key, let me know
[03:34] <troy_s> now when you make a change, you need to issue a commit.  this won't do bugger all until you push the changes.
[03:34] <troy_s> bzr commit -m "Your full explanation of the commit."
[03:34] <troy_s> If you omit the -m, bzr will automatically launch an editor and let you put in a larger comment.
[03:34] <troy_s> with?
[03:37] <z_diver> troy_s, alright the keys are up there.  Do I need to undo the bzr add <myfile> that I did or will that not cause any harm
[03:37] <troy_s> depends
[03:37] <troy_s> your bzr add is relative to the directory
[03:37] <troy_s> so if you simply re-added the same file
[03:37] <troy_s> it shouldn't be an issue
[03:37] <z_diver> correct
[03:37] <troy_s> there is a bzr list command somewhere
[03:37] <troy_s> to see the file listing
[03:37] <z_diver> tha'ts what I did
[03:37] <troy_s> ok should be ok
[03:37] <troy_s> try the push now
[03:37] <z_diver> brz pulls up a few
[03:37] <z_diver> k
[03:37] <troy_s> after a bzr init (already done)
[03:38] <troy_s> you do your commit
[03:38] <troy_s> with comment
[03:38] <troy_s> bzr commit -m 'Blah'
[03:38] <troy_s> bzr push sftp://<yourID>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~<yourID/yourTeam>/<product>/<branchname>
[03:38] <troy_s> and that's it.
[03:38] <z_diver> from within the directory
[03:38] <troy_s> pretty simple
[03:38] <troy_s> yes
[03:38] <troy_s> bzr commit from the directory
[03:38] <troy_s> then push
[03:38] <troy_s> from the root of the directory
[03:39] <troy_s> in this case the <yourID/yourTeam> will match the same one you pulled from
[03:39] <troy_s> basically the same address
[03:39] <troy_s> if you made some radical changes, you could append -chuck to the branchname for later merging
[03:40] <troy_s> and thanks to daniel's automated procedure that him and frank banged out
[03:40] <troy_s> every half hour the packages will get built and shipped.
[03:41] <z_diver> wow how cool!
[03:41] <troy_s> tell me if you are met with success?
[03:41] <z_diver> bzr commit gave me an error
[03:41] <troy_s> what was the error?
[03:41] <troy_s> probably about that double add?
[03:41] <z_diver> cannot lock
[03:41] <troy_s> try the bzr init
[03:41] <z_diver> bzr init
[03:41] <troy_s> yes
[03:41] <z_diver> woops
[03:42] <troy_s> ;)
[03:42] <z_diver> wrong window
[03:42] <troy_s> it werk?
[03:42] <z_diver> new error Error alread a branch
[03:43] <z_diver> hmm
[03:43] <troy_s> hmm... maybe we can't push direct
[03:43] <troy_s> try putting -chuck on it
[03:43] <troy_s> and then we can notify daniel
[03:43] <z_diver> ok
[03:43] <troy_s> it is possible that the mains are locked.
[03:43] <troy_s> but i am not certain
[03:43] <troy_s> (it might be that daniel needs to permit ax to the mains)
[03:44] <z_diver> ok, so do i add gtkrc-chuck or something?
[03:44] <troy_s> there might be a merge tool
[03:44] <troy_s> no
[03:44] <troy_s> just establish your own branch with the changes.
[03:44] <troy_s> but let me look into it,
[03:44] <troy_s> manning bzr
[03:46] <troy_s> for now, let's push to .chuck or -z_diver or something
[03:46] <troy_s> and we will get a resolution tomorrow from daniel on how to push direct
[03:46] <troy_s> once you push, let me know and I'll see if i can see the revisiosn
[03:47] <z_diver> so how should I do that
[03:48] <troy_s> offer your commit via pushing
[03:48] <troy_s> but push to
[03:49] <troy_s> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/z_diver
[03:49] <troy_s> perhaps
[03:49] <troy_s> try that
[03:49] <z_diver> troy_s, would it be bzr push <local_directory> <remote>
[03:49] <troy_s> no it is the fully qualified package name
[03:49] <troy_s> erm crap
[03:50] <troy_s> obviously with your id on the head instead of the brainded http paste i did
[03:50] <troy_s> bzr push sftp://<yourID>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~<yourID/yourTeam>/<product>/<branchname>
[03:50] <troy_s> that's the full syntax
[03:50] <troy_s> so as a guess
[03:50] <troy_s> you tried
[03:51] <troy_s> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu correct?
[03:51] <z_diver> lets see
[03:51] <troy_s> is that what you tried when you got the 'oops already branch' error?
[03:52] <troy_s> ???
[03:52] <z_diver> no.  This looks to be working
[03:52] <troy_s> in the syntax i just gave?
[03:52] <z_diver> darn.  mailto:sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
[03:53] <troy_s> mailto?
[03:53] <z_diver> wait that's wrong
[03:53] <troy_s> wtf?
[03:53] <z_diver> no that's how xchat copied your link
[03:53] <z_diver> I didn't use it that way.
[03:53] <z_diver> hang on
[03:53] <z_diver> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu does not exist.
[03:53] <troy_s> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
[03:53] <troy_s> erm
[03:53] <z_diver> that's the correct errror
[03:54] <troy_s> how strange is that.
[03:54] <troy_s> it shouldn't realistically be giving that error...
[03:54] <troy_s> try the /z_diver instead of ubuntu
[03:54] <z_diver> k
[03:54] <troy_s> we need to figure out the official pushes issue.
[03:55] <z_diver> interesting
[03:55] <z_diver> permission denied.  I think the lagunadata was correct then, no?
[03:57] <troy_s> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/z_diver
[03:57] <troy_s> your id wouldn't change
[03:57] <z_diver> trying that
[03:57] <z_diver> z_diver directory doesn't exist, hmmm
[03:58] <troy_s> and the original ubuntu one didn't work?
[03:58] <troy_s> from within the local ~/ubuntu
[03:58] <z_diver> i'll try again
[03:58] <troy_s> dir on your computer?
[03:58] <troy_s> yes... i'll try one.
[03:58] <troy_s> at this end...
[03:58] <troy_s> i know we are damn close as per the instructions
[03:58] <troy_s> andreasn --
[03:58] <troy_s> ping
[03:58] <troy_s> andreasn -- when you guys push to Tangerine, what is the format syntax for the bzr push command?
[03:59] <z_diver> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu does not exist.
[03:59] <z_diver> that is from within ubuntu with the correct id offering the following command.
[03:59] <z_diver> chuckh@ubuntu:~/ubuntu$ bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
[04:00] <troy_s> ok... lets try adding a branch off of it...
[04:00] <troy_s> for your revision
[04:00] <troy_s> i believe it is bzr help branch
[04:00] <z_diver> alright. lookin now
[04:02] <troy_s> damn close... in his example he basically created a branch
[04:03] <troy_s> but i don't know if we create a branch from the legacyhuman-theme or the full legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu-mybranch
[04:03] <z_diver> you have an example handy
[04:03] <z_diver> I was going to try the second approach
[04:04] <troy_s> i will try one.
[04:04] <troy_s> hold on...
[04:05] <troy_s> fetching legacy
[04:07] <z_diver> so I have downloaded a branch that I called ubuntu-chuckh
[04:08] <troy_s> via branch?
[04:08] <z_diver> yes
[04:08] <z_diver> now I've added my gtkrc to that branch.
[04:08] <z_diver> verified it's correct
[04:09] <z_diver> now can I push that up or is that way too much...
[04:09] <z_diver> since I only changed the single file?
[04:09] <troy_s> it might be the only way since the offical branch appears locked to me.
[04:10] <z_diver> k, I'll try
[04:11] <troy_s> it might be working
[04:11] <troy_s> woop
[04:11] <troy_s> i think it worked
[04:11] <troy_s> the push is still to the same directory
[04:11] <z_diver> same error that the ubuntu-chuckh branch doesn't exist.
[04:12] <z_diver> oh
[04:12] <z_diver> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu-chuckh
[04:12] <z_diver> so that should have been to ubuntu at the end?
[04:12] <troy_s> that is what i did
[04:12] <troy_s> i did this:
[04:13] <troy_s> bzr branch <blahblahblah> ./troy_s
[04:13] <troy_s> then cd into troy_s
[04:13] <troy_s> adjusted the NEWS file
[04:13] <troy_s> bzr commit -m 'Changed NEWS as a test."
[04:13] <z_diver> i can tell I did something wrong.  I didn't commit in there.
[04:13] <troy_s> then bzr push sftp://troy-sobotka@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
[04:14] <troy_s> and it appears to do something
[04:14] <troy_s> did it succeed or die?
[04:14] <troy_s> because i succeeded but it isn't showing anywhere that i can see.
[04:14] <z_diver> mine errored out with the parent directory doesn't exist error
[04:14] <z_diver> but let me commit
[04:15] <troy_s> try doing the commit using the same syntax i did.
[04:18] <troy_s> fer feck sake
[04:19] <z_diver> what do you mean.  Single quote in front and double behind???
[04:20] <z_diver> anyway, commit seemed to work.  Just can't get it to push.  still telling me that  ERROR: Parent directory of sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu-chuckh does not exist.
[04:20] <troy_s> I borked that
[04:20] <troy_s> yes the commit is local
[04:20] <troy_s> yes i get that too.
[04:21] <troy_s> so clearly we have an issue with something we are borking.
[04:22] <z_diver> I've tried with simply ubuntu at the end instead of my branch thinking that that might help.  To no avail.
[04:22] <troy_s> Yes.
[04:23] <troy_s> We are close.  I have posted a message to Daniel, which will be resolved tomorrow.
[04:23] <troy_s> Hopefully we will be able to start the patch fest shortly.
[04:23] <z_diver> ;)
[04:23] <troy_s> And kill off a large number of the nonsensical 'bugs'
[04:23] <troy_s> As they are easy to fix, we just need the write permission or proper syntax.
[04:23] <z_diver> It will brighten the mood, i think
[04:23] <troy_s> I know for my own branches, this isn't an issue.
[04:24] <troy_s> Well... the mood is irrelevant.  The main thing is to keep attempting to illustrate that we are on the same side sab is on.
[04:24] <troy_s> It will take time, as I originally was very clear in stating.
[04:24] <troy_s> I was looking through the bugs though, and noted that a large number, like your gtkrc example, actually had fixes -- just no legwork to push them through.
[04:24] <z_diver> by the mood I meant that the art team.  It would be nice to have more participation again
[04:24] <troy_s> for example, orro had the open folder svg on his site... so i pushed that up to the thread.
[04:25] <troy_s> yes.
[04:25] <troy_s> as i said, sabdfl simply won't consider design issues until the team is firing on full cylinders.
[04:25] <troy_s> of course, everyone seems to forget that prior to edgy we had a grand total of 17 members on launchpad.
[04:25] <troy_s> ;)
[04:25] <z_diver> how many are there now?
[04:26] <z_diver> how many are there now?
[04:26] <troy_s> uh
[04:26] <troy_s> 202
[04:26] <troy_s> launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art
[04:26] <z_diver> that was a good drive then....
[04:26] <troy_s> not to mention all of the stuff that daniel set up with frank over edgy etc.
[04:27] <troy_s> (like automated artwork for all of the packages, etc.)
[04:27] <troy_s> it was a very frustrating conclusion.
[04:27] <z_diver> true.  That was a ton of work
[04:27] <troy_s> because i tried to make it clear at the beginning
[04:27] <troy_s> to sab et al
[04:27] <troy_s> that the goal for edgy will _not_ be the destination attained
[04:27] <troy_s> it is the foundation work that is the hard part
[04:27] <troy_s> and establishing communication with the devs etc
[04:28] <troy_s> hell, prior to edgy, we were not even on the bug listing.
[04:28] <z_diver> how did you feel we did on that end?
[04:28] <troy_s> i was fine
[04:28] <troy_s> it is a matter of one part aesthetics, one part design, one part audience
[04:28] <z_diver> I know we may have gotten off track a time or two but as far as getting a foundation setup, I though we did great.
[04:28] <troy_s> the reality is that we currently have no target audience per - se.  the target audience is one person, which is an unfortunate reality.
[04:28] <troy_s> yeah it was fine
[04:29] <troy_s> the main flaw was sab not stepping in and steering at the various checkpoints, but i don't know if it was clear in the end after he posted his thoughts.  frank's article on linux.com was pretty spot on.
[04:29] <troy_s> when he was interviewed.
[04:29] <troy_s> again though, you can't expect total magic in 4 months
[04:30] <troy_s> considering the time, the place we began, etc, it was all quite above the expectation level -- but unfortunately everyone looked at the final.  which was silly.
[04:30] <z_diver> When he jumps in from time to time we get an idea of his thinking and I know I was usually somewhat surprised at sabs insight.
[04:30] <troy_s> well yes...
[04:30] <troy_s> at one point i couldn't believe it
[04:30] <troy_s> but i was actually arguing about colour theory with him on the phone
[04:30] <troy_s> knowing full well that
[04:30] <troy_s> i was arguing with someone with zero art / design background
[04:30] <troy_s> which was ... strange.
[04:30] <troy_s> alas, again, it will take time.
[04:31] <troy_s> and perhaps he will need to see the light himself before things will see change.
[04:31] <troy_s> we have a good number of very talented people in the crowd
[04:31] <troy_s> as is clear from some of the output of the very few who bothered.
[04:31] <z_diver> I'm glad to see you're still at it.  You produced a lot of neat stuff that didn't get used at all.
[04:31] <troy_s> i think the fundamental problem is that we are _not_ following a traditional design approach -- no audience.
[04:32] <troy_s> hence you get 'buttons are too thin' 'colors are ugly' etc.
[04:32] <troy_s> nothing to check the designs against
[04:32] <troy_s> blah
[04:32] <troy_s> it matters not
[04:32] <troy_s> my only
[04:32] <troy_s> and i mean _only_ regret
[04:32] <troy_s> is that i actually bothered to try and guess into the sabdfl aesthetic
[04:32] <troy_s> had it been my knowledge from the onset, i probably would have just rambled down the road i thought was more appropriate
[04:32] <z_diver> right, that's tough to even attempt
[04:33] <troy_s> well... especially to a vacant owner. ;)
[04:33] <z_diver> no, i remember that and felt it might even be recognized by sab.
[04:33] <troy_s> again too, despite the outcome, there were about 300 emails in my box wondering why
[04:33] <troy_s> i think we were at about 75% approval despite the unfortunate outcome
[04:33] <troy_s> which, considering the circumstance, is completely acceptable.
[04:34] <troy_s> especially for a first pass in 3 months effectively.
[04:34] <z_diver> had the outcome been more appropriate I think we as a group wouldl be flying still.
[04:34] <troy_s> i firmly believe and have faith in ubuntu, so i force myself to keep at it.  not suffer from the immature 'sour grapes' approach and pull the bail.
[04:34] <troy_s> well... i was letting it stew a bit.
[04:34] <troy_s> working on u2 and such.
[04:35] <troy_s> now i figure the time is right to really go back to the wheel and get the die hards to learn bzr
[04:35] <troy_s> and start building a community that liases with the devs -- even if on a very medial scale.
[04:35] <z_diver> oh, yeah, thanks for takign the time with me.
[04:35] <troy_s> the core devs are the most important group to touch.
[04:35] <troy_s> well bzr is amazingly powerful.
[04:35] <troy_s> and relatively easy
[04:35] <troy_s> but we need to spread our knoweldge
[04:35] <troy_s> get a wiki page up
[04:35] <troy_s> and promote the bug quashing once we figure it out
[04:36] <z_diver> a wiki would be a good idea.
[04:36] <troy_s> the docs could be setup on the launchpad howto with a bzr howto
[04:36] <troy_s> specifically geared towards the art team
[04:36] <troy_s> how to checkout
[04:36] <troy_s> how to update
[04:36] <troy_s> how to push
[04:36] <z_diver> right, copy and paste just like you did with me.
[04:36] <troy_s> it will make daniel's immense workload a little lighter if we can at least push it to the merge point
[04:36] <troy_s> yep
[04:37] <troy_s> it is really only two commands to pull the sources
[04:37] <troy_s> do the work then push it.
[04:37] <troy_s> not very hard.
[04:37] <troy_s> and seeing as how our first 'success' will be with your gtkrc
[04:37] <z_diver> ;)
[04:37] <troy_s> it should be good to build out from that.
[04:37] <troy_s> its why i contacted you because you actually have work that can fix a bug
[04:37] <troy_s> and that is a good start.
[04:37] <troy_s> once we get our sea legs, you and i can bang out a wiki page for the art team
[04:37] <troy_s> and post to the list
[04:38] <z_diver> sure, I'm game for hatt
[04:38] <troy_s> 202 folks, at even 10% is still 20 folks banging out bug fixes.
[04:38] <troy_s> and _that_ will begin phase two of getting the devs interaction up
[04:38] <troy_s> with relatively little pain
[04:39] <troy_s> in fact, i dare say that the bulk of those bugs already have fixes either A) in the bug threads, or B) in third party sites like orro's svg
[04:39] <troy_s> daniel, for one reason or another, has bumped me onto the desktop bug team, so i can at least order the list a bit.
[04:39] <z_diver> Daniel is amazing.  He has to be ontop of so much stuff and still do all our bugz too.  I think this is a good idea and can help him which in turn turn will get the dev to take note.
[04:40] <troy_s> Yes.
[04:40] <troy_s> He really has been holding us in the game
[04:40] <z_diver> I have a few fixes that I'll have to dig up, and post.  Some of them are to my own projects but still like to add them.
[04:41] <troy_s> So I think we at least owe it to him to try and take up some of the workload.
[04:41] <troy_s> God knows we are all very busy, but ...
[04:41] <troy_s> I do what I can considering my slim time.
[04:41] <troy_s> Indeed...
[04:41] <troy_s> You by the way, would probably have full writes to your theme
[04:41] <troy_s> IIRC
[04:41] <z_diver> if we think like that the danger is Daniel will and then it's over.
[04:41] <troy_s> I might be mistaken, but you can try
[04:42] <z_diver> no comment above was about the slim time.
[04:43] <troy_s> Exactly.
[04:43] <troy_s> Anyways, great to still see you around...
[04:43] <troy_s> let's see if we can get the boat back on course.
[04:43] <troy_s> baby steps...
[04:44] <z_diver> you too.  Hang in there... I'll be around and look for you here from time to time
[04:44] <z_diver> Let me know what you hear from the devs, please.
[04:45] <z_diver> cu
[10:48] <lapo> hi
[12:02] <lizardking> Hello artworker!
[12:12] <lizardking> Someone Have any news from sabdfl 's artwork development?
[03:56] <troy_s> greetings TuxCrafter
[03:59] <troy_s> dborg
[03:59] <troy_s> Any guess on pixmap support in Lua?
[03:59] <dborg> guess?
[03:59] <troy_s> Yes.
[03:59] <dborg> when it's done?
[03:59] <troy_s> As in extending the drawing functions of Cairo(?) ?
[03:59] <troy_s> yes
[03:59] <troy_s> Or at least workable ;)
[04:00] <troy_s> I would prefer a 'clean' engine implementation as opposed to me having to kludge with the Pixbuf engine and the TETEAE Lua
[04:00] <troy_s> I can't imagine it would be fun getting Pixbuf cooperating nicely.
[04:00] <dborg> I'm not planning to do this yet, it's just a planned possible extension. but it shouldn't be too difficult to add it
[04:01] <troy_s> Erk!
[04:01] <troy_s> Here is a question
[04:01] <troy_s> If I state Lua as the basic widget engine
[04:01] <troy_s> and apply it as a blanket
[04:02] <troy_s> Do you have an idea how many widgets will trap the bg_image property?
[04:02] <troy_s> Compared to say, Mist or the Default?
[04:03] <dborg> I think pretty much all standard widgets (aside from entries, which draw a white background...). it will mostly be custom widgets causing problems
[04:03] <troy_s> You would think
[04:03] <dborg> there is no difference, it has nothing to do with the engine
[04:03] <troy_s> but the Default actually traps LESS than Mist.
[04:03] <troy_s> I thought that...
[04:03] <dborg> huh?
[04:03] <troy_s> But I believe that the engine can influence it...
[04:03] <troy_s> I must run for now
[04:03] <dborg> I don't see how
[04:03] <troy_s> but as an experiment
[04:03] <troy_s> try applying
[04:04] <troy_s> bg_image
[04:04] <troy_s> without specifying a default engine {} clause
[04:04] <troy_s> compare the widget output
[04:04] <troy_s> in firefox
[04:04] <troy_s> or some app
[04:04] <troy_s> then apply engine "mist" {}
[04:04] <troy_s> you will see what i mean
[04:05] <troy_s> I believe it has to do with the switch case structure
[04:05] <troy_s> but I might be mistaken
[04:05] <dborg> oh that bg_image you mean. I never used that
[04:06] <troy_s> yes i know
[04:06] <troy_s> but it is apparently up to the engine to trap it appropriately
[04:06] <troy_s> which means in an ideal world
[04:06] <troy_s> lua would ;)
[04:07] <troy_s> would you mind if i do a test and send you feedback on its implementation?
[04:07] <troy_s> dborg
[04:08] <troy_s> so with engine "lua" {}
[04:08] <troy_s> it looks like it falls back to "Default"
[04:08] <troy_s> but, with "mist" the top of firefox is bg_imaged
[04:08] <dborg> yes, mostly
[04:08] <troy_s> with Default it isn't
[04:08] <troy_s> (as with lua now)
[04:08] <dborg> yikes, don't tell me about firefox ;)
[04:08] <troy_s> in an ideal world, we figure out how mist traps it
[04:09] <troy_s> mist traps it properly
[04:09] <troy_s> in their switch case
[04:09] <troy_s> as in, it DOES properly apply the bg_image
[04:09] <troy_s> so i suspect that lua might need to add in the same clause
[04:09] <troy_s> in order to get proper functionality
[04:09] <dborg> wouldn't it be better to draw the background just once and then make the widgets transparent as possible?
[04:09] <troy_s> i have looked at mist's code, but not defaults
[04:09] <troy_s> Or that :)
[04:09] <troy_s> Whatever works
[04:10] <troy_s> The bottom line is that obviously firefox uses some different *widget* that mist captures properly
[04:10] <troy_s> and the default doesn't
[04:10] <troy_s> (as odd as that seems)
[04:10] <dborg> that's how I have done it before and it will be possible with the lua engine as well. it just fails with widgets who aren't properly transparent (many custom widgets)
[04:10] <troy_s> yes
[04:11] <troy_s> so is it possible to override that behaviour to force bg_image to behave appropriately in all circum?
[04:11] <dborg> I don't know
[04:12] <troy_s> i would buy you a beer if you could make it behave like that
[04:12] <troy_s> or at the very least, like mist handles it... (considering the prevalence of FF etc, it is rather mandatory for me)
[04:12] <dborg> what kind of background would you use it for?
[04:13] <troy_s> it is somewhere along the lines of the brushed gunmetal of osx, but not cheesy metals.
[04:13] <troy_s> its for a far more organic project...
[04:13] <troy_s> it appears to be the menu bar
[04:13] <troy_s> and the toolbar
[04:14] <troy_s> as Thunderbird suffers from the same breaking of bg_image
[04:14] <dborg> but isn't it better to do this kind of thing with one background gradient instead of scaled images?
[04:14] <troy_s> (not to mention List Views too... the headers are not applied)
[04:14] <troy_s> no, grads can't add the irregularity
[04:14] <dborg> well they can if you use cairo ;)
[04:14] <troy_s> ?
[04:14] <troy_s> how so?
[04:15] <troy_s> and if so, enlighten me.
[04:15] <troy_s> i basically need a fundamental texture applied to all widgetry
[04:15] <troy_s> consistently
[04:15] <dborg> I mean you can draw the image pattern and then overlay a transparent gradient. I'm quite sure that's how OSX does it. could be very slow though
[04:15] <troy_s> right now the implementation is very fast
[04:15] <troy_s> using just the bg_image
[04:15] <troy_s> the problems are as discussed however
[04:16] <troy_s> if mist were perfect, I would use it, but again, it breaks the rules and performs solid fills on things like scrollbar troughs
[04:16] <troy_s> etc.
[04:16] <troy_s> the default does this properly, but does NOT manage to trap the menubar, toolbar, etc of ff
[04:16] <troy_s> (where mist does)
[04:16] <troy_s> and frankly, i don't care about speed.
[04:16] <troy_s> if it works on a relatively modern computer, it works for me.
[04:17] <dborg> sure
[04:18] <troy_s> the main thing is just getting a bloody engine to do the 'right' thing
[04:18] <troy_s> and that means having the gtkrc apply the bg_image to _EVERY_ widget, no matter what app
[04:18] <troy_s> as in mixing the functionality of default engine with mist
[04:18] <troy_s> and we are there.
[04:18] <troy_s> which is a simple switch/case statement with the proper constants to the best of my knowledge.
[04:19] <TuxCrafter> Hello everyone (need a brake for 15 min)
[04:19] <dborg> well I'm still not convinced that bg_image is all that useful compared to a simple background draw, but it shouldn't be too difficult to slap it behind each drawing function
[04:20] <TuxCrafter> I see the problem in xubuntu and probably also ubuntu that users like to see things change like graphical stuff but developers do not support it
[04:20] <troy_s> dborg -- i agree... but i think to be a proper engine that that
[04:21] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: nature of the beast.  users aren't devs however.
[04:21] <TuxCrafter> I want to have a voting system for all the dynamical graphical stuff
[04:21] <dborg> yikes
[04:21] <dborg> voting systems are evil :)
[04:21] <troy_s> dborg that the base engine should handle the gtkrc defines properly
[04:21] <dborg> you can't design by committee
[04:21] <troy_s> no
[04:21] <troy_s> you need a solid team
[04:22] <troy_s> dborg -- anyways, if you could pull that off, or at least provide a way to draw to _all_ widgets
[04:22] <troy_s> i would appreciate the knowledge.
[04:22] <TuxCrafter> but they can help make things transparent and let users feel apart of the distribution
[04:22] <troy_s> (as in a catch all like bg_image)
[04:22] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: matters not
[04:22] <troy_s> 'users' is a big term
[04:22] <troy_s> with no clearly defined audience, design fails.
[04:22] <troy_s> period.
[04:22] <dborg> troy_s: well I'd say it's still up to the engine which options it supports ;) it could have its own background image handling just as well
[04:22] <troy_s> you learn that in art and design skool .000001
[04:23] <troy_s> dborg -- sure.  i guess then i have to turn it into a request :(
[04:23] <troy_s> images are critical ... especially with the newer wave coming down.
[04:23] <dborg> "newer wave"?
[04:23] <troy_s> you simply cannot provide the same appearance using simple splines (you could do it somewhat with svg)
[04:24] <troy_s> the looks right now are locked into simple line functionality
[04:24] <TuxCrafter> I was thinking of a system were people can post a design on a website and with a howto /script how it can be implemented and tested
[04:24] <troy_s> and grads
[04:24] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: go for it.
[04:24] <TuxCrafter> in the ubuntu wiki system
[04:24] <TuxCrafter> I was hoping if someone already had made this somewere
[04:24] <troy_s> dborg: at any rate, how much effort to implement it in lua?
[04:24] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: it is called launchpad
[04:25] <TuxCrafter> launchpad is more for bus and request right?
[04:25] <dborg> troy_s: well I'm sure I'll support pixmap textures at some point, what I am not sure about it is the usefulness of bg_image as opposed to rendering a texture once on the window background
[04:25] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: it works.  but polls will fail.  there are two components -- the client (the fellow who calls the ultimate shots) and the audience
[04:25] <troy_s> neither cares about polls.
[04:26] <troy_s> dborg:  i don't mind how it is implemented... (although i would prefer that bg_image did the trick regardless as to how to achieve it)
[04:26] <troy_s> dborg and i would very much prefer to use lua
[04:26] <troy_s> to show what it can do.
[04:26] <TuxCrafter> but how do you measure then if people like it or niot
[04:26] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: called focus groups
[04:26] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: and they don't work exactly well either
[04:27] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: design is a very tricky realm -- it takes people who are educated in the design world (know what trends are moving across _all_ design, etc) with the proper team for execution.
[04:27] <TuxCrafter> I am going to do a coarse in people management
[04:27] <TuxCrafter> and read some more stuff about opensource management
[04:28] <TuxCrafter> sometimes the system is so ineffective that you can just not begin to grasp it :-D
[04:28] <TuxCrafter> and i believe ubuntu has the best community system
[04:29] <dborg> a little too good maybe :)
[04:29] <TuxCrafter> how does the artwork go in the ubuntu process
[04:30] <TuxCrafter> who decide how things looks
[04:32] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: the answer is simple
[04:32] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: one person is both the audience and client
[04:32] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: sabdfl
[04:32] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: there is no process, just whim
[04:32] <TuxCrafter> whim?
[04:32] <dborg___> holy crap
[04:32] <troy_s> dborg___ what?>
[04:32] <TuxCrafter> Mark Shuttleworth
[04:33] <troy_s> dborg -- i would buy you a case of your fave liq if you could get textures working
[04:33] <troy_s> ;)
[04:33] <troy_s> lua very clearly is the future -- teteae -- but we need to show people how this is ture.
[04:33] <troy_s> true even
[04:33] <TuxCrafter> so no freedom for ubuntu and chaos for xubuntu :-D
[04:33] <dborg___> I'll finish it first :P
[04:33] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: no... the nature of design in free software still has a lot of 'maturing' to happen
[04:34] <troy_s> dborg: you _rock_
[04:36] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: and, ultimately, the design issues with all of the given distributions have no one to blame but themselves
[04:36] <troy_s> heavy on the politicking, and not enough on traditional design theory
[04:36] <TuxCrafter> indeed if we look at theory of graphical issues and treds xubuntu needs a lot of work
[04:37] <troy_s> well you have one upside -- mr. mak.
[04:37] <troy_s> but it ultimately depends on his vision _and_ his ability to implement his change.
[04:37] <TuxCrafter> but the not all dev's have that insight
[04:37] <troy_s> again, what seems to happen is that the changes are 'half assed'
[04:37] <troy_s> because of the political structure
[04:38] <TuxCrafter> so what do you advice if we want to add some extra options of graphical work in xubuntu
[04:38] <troy_s> if the top of the heap has the ability to call the final shot and give the power to someone they trust, the output _could_ be very good.
[04:38] <troy_s> jani is a damn good guy
[04:38] <TuxCrafter> he is
[04:38] <troy_s> and xub has some pretty good people working on the art/design front
[04:38] <TuxCrafter> jub jmak etcetra
[04:38] <troy_s> but i think again, it would take someone to really lay down a target audience
[04:39] <troy_s> before you can attempt to speak to them
[04:39] <troy_s> without a target audience
[04:39] <troy_s> you are effectively 'pretending' to appeal to all
[04:39] <troy_s> which is pure garbage
[04:39] <troy_s> no such creature
[04:39] <troy_s> it is like standing up at the united nations and saying 'i love you all'
[04:39] <TuxCrafter> indeed thats why I want to let te user be able to choice
[04:39] <troy_s> whilst being ignorant that the language being spoken is english for example.
[04:39] <troy_s> well users can't choose either
[04:40] <troy_s> you must _Clearly_ define your audience
[04:40] <TuxCrafter> with a easy way of editing configurations
[04:40] <troy_s> otherwise you get what we currently have in ubuntu -- 10000001 different 'opinions' in bug reports
[04:40] <troy_s> which is also rubbish
[04:40] <TuxCrafter> yes that sucks
[04:40] <troy_s> you need to say 'design feature a does not meet the requirements of target audience foobar'
[04:41] <troy_s> and on another side of the spectrum you have the 'middle grey' approach
[04:41] <troy_s> which is to just barely be adequate
[04:41] <troy_s> and keep the complaints down
[04:41] <troy_s> which again, is NOT effective design either.
[04:42] <troy_s> art and design is, ultimately, a form of communication
[04:42] <troy_s> stand out art and design
[04:42] <troy_s> communicates a clear message
[04:42] <troy_s> _and_ does so in an aesthetically cohesive manner.
[04:43] <troy_s> if you don't believe that, feel free to pick up just about any reference book on art / design.
[04:43] <TuxCrafter> I think I will specialize myself in these policies to become able to create a effective communication system between different type of users
[04:43] <troy_s> to quote but _one_ source:
[04:43] <troy_s> "Concept is king"
[04:44] <troy_s> "Audience is the force that governs all"
[04:44] <troy_s> although just about every reference will have that stated in some manner.
[04:44] <TuxCrafter> you forgot over
[04:47] <TuxCrafter> I believe it is the power to become able to attract different kind of user to one distributions bye creating easy method of changing complete different type of graphical looks
[04:48] <TuxCrafter> but my all my resent experiences learn me this will not become a easy task
[05:00] <troy_s> TuxCrafter: in theory any distribution affords this.  the reality is that _most_ users probably don't want to put in the hours to develop a look.
[05:04] <TuxCrafter> troy_s: Yes i agree but when a user is putting time and what to help. He should not be so easily dismissed and say that is idea's are useless. I have seen that happen several times. There should be a clear and democratic system that a user can easily go through with his idea's
[05:04] <troy_s> _anyone_ can bikeshed
[05:04] <troy_s> democracy does not assure solid design
[05:04] <troy_s> nor does dictatorships
[05:05] <TuxCrafter> true
[05:05] <troy_s> ultimately, there are no easy answers.
[05:05] <TuxCrafter> thats also why devs and users are separated
[05:06] <troy_s> the best design generally is the byproduct of A) a solid team atmosphere, B) educated participants, C) solid design plan.
[05:06] <troy_s> need look no further than the lauded Apple design team
[05:07] <TuxCrafter> indeed not a easy subject
[05:08] <TuxCrafter> troy_s I have to go further with my work now, and thanks for your insides have something to think about :-D
[05:23] <TheSheep> I wonder if a sketch of overall design, with all the changes shown, would be more encouraging that just mockups of single features...
[05:52] <coz_> to mods at  art.ubuntu.com i am still seeing my name there PLEASE remove all references from the servers i go under coz and cosimo thank you
[06:07] <troy_s> i wish he woudl quite popping in here as though we are mods.
[06:07] <troy_s> TheSheep -- yes.
[06:07] <troy_s> TheSheep -- if you mean to an 'outside' person
[06:08] <troy_s> hopefully when you are on the 'inside' you have the ability to visualize the issue.
[06:08] <troy_s> otherwise you probably shouldn't be on the team.
[06:38] <troy_s> bersace: greets my brother.
[06:47] <bersace> troy_s: hi bro
[06:47] <bersace> how are you !
[06:47] <bersace> ?
[06:47] <troy_s> good thanks.  you?
[06:48] <bersace> quite good
[06:48] <bersace> i saw you did a lot of work in lp
[06:49] <troy_s> yeah trying to amp it up a bit.
[08:49] <TuxCrafter> does somebody now how to install the murrine engine
[08:49] <TuxCrafter> never mind
[08:49] <TuxCrafter> found the tread
[09:00] <PingunZ> !seen fschoep
[10:02] <troy_s> pingunz
[10:02] <troy_s> no seen
[10:02] <PingunZ> hey troy_s
[10:02] <troy_s> greets.
[10:04] <PingunZ> how are you m8 ?
[10:06] <troy_s> fine thank you pingunz.
[10:12] <msikma> Hey everyone
[10:12] <troy_s> greets msikma
[11:45] <TuxCrafter> hello I have a noob question
[11:46] <TuxCrafter> I have installed murrina and the MurrinaGiloucheDuo Theme
[11:46] <TuxCrafter> and I want to customisch it
[11:46] <TuxCrafter> where do I start :-D
[11:46] <TuxCrafter> with config files must I edit?
[11:47] <TuxCrafter> gtkrc