/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/01/15/#ubuntu-artwork.txt

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coz_evening to all artists :)02:51
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troy_sgreets coz)03:16
troy_scoz_ even03:16
coz_troy_s, hey guy one minute I have a person i am helping03:16
coz_troy_s, sorry for the delay03:33
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coz_and sorry for disconnecting myself :)03:34
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coz_night all :)04:27
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lapoyo there11:49
BHSPitLappyyo12:00
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coz_ok guys, i have asked several times in as many days if any of the devs would remove my gallery and name form the art.ubuntu.com gallery01:45
coz_I see that it is still there01:45
kwwiicoz_: might be better to poke someone in the evening, european time, that is when there seems to be more discussion01:53
coz_kwwii, oh really? I often wondered when most of the people here talked :) thanks01:54
kwwiino prob :-)01:54
coz_kwwii,  well may not be necessary now found the delete images option on that site01:54
coz_would lik emy name removed though01:55
kwwiiI can understand that01:55
kwwiithe only reason I use my name is because I am getting paid to do the stuff :-)01:55
coz_kwwii, well if you need an friend working with you let me know :)01:56
kwwiicoz_: we can use all the help we can get working on kubuntu ;-)01:56
kwwiieveryone is welcome01:56
coz_kwwii, my problem right now if you haven't heard is that the mods decided to remove a painting of mine from the forums01:57
kwwiiwow, why?01:57
kwwiiwas it something morally questionable?01:57
kwwiiI am not too big on forums nor wikis ;-)01:58
coz_according to the mods the first explanation was tha tit was not family friendly, it was anude painting of a former mod and dev named kassetra01:58
coz_the second reason was that it ws not  appropriate to show a formoer mods painting in the nude01:58
coz_without permission but I had that of course01:58
coz_it is a tasteful painting but I will not tolerate censorship01:59
coz_so they lose out01:59
kwwiihrm01:59
coz_kwwii, would you like to see it?02:00
kwwiiyeah, after the calender stuff we have to be carefull of people's reactions02:00
kwwiisure, love to02:00
coz_kwwii, nonsense02:00
coz_when it is pronyes when it is art NO02:00
coz_hold on02:00
kwwiioh, you cannot imagine how many people flipped out about that stuff (although I found it very tastefull)02:00
coz_kwwii, here you go   http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/1203/kassestrajy8.png02:01
coz_kwwii, who flipped out about that stuf?02:02
coz_kwwii, well do you think that is offensive?02:03
kwwiifrom what I heard, a lot of people did (note, I was not around at that time)02:03
coz_kwwii, and your opinion?02:03
kwwiino, it is not offensive, but then again, in europe stuff like that is normal02:03
kwwiiyou can see more than that on normal tv here02:04
coz_yeah well i am italian02:04
kwwii;-)02:04
kwwiiI've lived in germany for 11 years so I am used to it02:04
kwwiibut in america some probably consider that porn02:04
coz_kwwii, when someone looks at that simply sketch I showed you and sees anything other than what it is , a painting sketch , somethings is wrong02:05
kwwiiyeah, I think so too, but we have to be careful because there are a lot of people out there who are not as accepting as we are02:06
coz_kwwii, then they either stop looking at it or go elsewhere02:06
kwwiithat is the hard thing about putting stuff on a website for everyone02:06
kwwiiit is more a problem, I guess for, let's say, a kid who likes it, uses it and then his/her parents flip out02:07
coz_kwwii, not at all they all have achoice the problem with this icident is I had an actual nude photo next to this that wasn't removed at all02:07
kwwiilol02:07
kwwiiwell, perhaps it did have more to do with the fact that people knew that person02:07
coz_kwwii, on otp of which other photos are still there that are far more suggestive than this02:07
kwwiihrm02:07
kwwiifunky02:07
coz_yep so i posited there to help teach that beautiful things can be created with minimal tools02:08
coz_so theri loss not mine02:08
kwwiito be honest, I have no info on who even takes care of that stuff, I'm just trying to imagine the situation02:08
kwwiiyeah02:08
kwwiiI wouldn't let it anger you02:08
coz_kwwii, I already know who did it and what their conflicting views were so...02:08
coz_anyway02:09
kwwiisometimes you just have to roll with things02:09
coz_kwwii, not this no02:09
coz_kwwii, this needs to be stopped02:09
coz_i would urge all posters on the forums to remove teir work until this is stopped02:09
kwwiiwell, if it was a personal reason, then yeah, it is not right02:09
coz_make no contributions at all02:09
coz_kwwii, it ws a political move not a family freindly one02:10
kwwiiI guess that is counter-productive, perhaps having a group meeting to discuss it02:10
coz_kwwii,  the problem with that is the group meeting would have the same metality of the memebers there02:10
kwwiioften you can cut through such bullshit (sorry for the word) by discussing things in a larger group02:10
kwwiiagain, I don't really know who the members are02:11
kwwiiso I can't comment on that or on this particular situation02:11
coz_kwwii, I don't know what group, this is something that the community has to put  astop to by boycotting02:11
kwwiior discussing, that really can be quite powerfull too02:11
kwwiiif a 100 people express their opinions that it is wrong, things will change02:12
coz_kwwii, i all the people on the art team and artists on the forums wouls simply stop support and poisting their work that should give a message of some kind02:13
kwwiisure, that would get attention, but it is quite a negative approach02:14
kwwiithere is a saying in german "you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar"02:14
coz_kwwii, same here probably because the US is 57% german :)02:14
kwwiiI can understand how frustrating it can be but I think that trying to take a positive approach might be more helpful for you in the long run02:15
kwwiilol, yeah02:15
coz_kwwii, see thats another thing, I am not upset about this at all, other than a fight against censorship. I don't need to show my work for ego or to get ecposure02:16
kwwiiwell, that is a good start :-)02:16
kwwiitry and set up a meeting, and discuss stuff like this02:16
coz_kwwii, but censorship in art cannot exist in this century02:16
kwwiiif we had a good set of rules about this stuff, it would be easier to work these problems out02:17
coz_kwwii, the ONLY that needs applied is that ONLY an artis can moderate the galleries02:17
kwwiiyeah, that would be nice as well, but often artists are the last people in the world who want to do that work ;-)02:17
kwwiiI know that it takes a lot of time and patience to do it right02:18
coz_kwwii, I would do it willingly02:18
coz_just to make sure no programmer or non artist can make a decision about art02:18
kwwiithen you have more patience than I do :-)02:18
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coz_kwwii, it wouldn't take much to do it02:18
coz_I know what is art and what is porn02:19
coz_kids play02:19
kwwiiyeah, that is normally pretty easy to see02:19
coz_kwwii, yep02:19
coz_kwwii, I assume  you are part of the art team as well?02:20
kwwiicoz_: yepp, I work on kubuntu mainly although that might change in the future02:20
coz_kwwii, well my name is on the team list however few people new about it :)02:20
coz_and i don't get paind either02:21
coz_paid02:21
kwwii:-)02:21
kwwiiI have to take my wife to the dentist, brb02:21
kwwii15min02:21
coz_kwwii, go guy !:)02:21
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troy_sgreets dborg08:28
troy_sgreets msikma08:28
msikmahi troy08:28
dborgheya08:28
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coz_afternoon all10:14
troy_sgreetings coz_10:30
coz_troy_s, hey guy! how are you?10:30
troy_sFine thank you...10:31
coz_well as usual not many people talking here ")10:31
kwwiilol10:32
kwwiiyeah10:32
kwwiiand when they are, they go like crazy for a while10:32
coz_kwwii, you know I have never been here to see "crazy" yet "_10:34
kwwii:p10:34
troy_sgreets kwwii10:42
kwwiihowdy troy_s10:42
kwwiibtw, everyone10:42
kwwiiI will be working on kubuntu artwork and more10:43
kwwiiit is official10:43
troy_swhat is the more?10:43
troy_sdid sab pass you ub?10:43
troy_sor is he still banging away with cliff?10:43
kwwiino idea10:44
kwwiihonestly, I signed a contract but I am not sure what exactly my job will be other than kubuntu10:45
kwwiiat least the is the one definte thing in the contract10:45
kwwiiand this time it is not a short term contract10:45
kwwiiI'll know more when I talk to him next week10:45
kwwiiin oslo10:46
troy_sGood stuff.10:46
troy_sHow long did you get your contract for?10:46
kwwiitill the end of this year10:47
kwwiiof course, that does not mean that they cannot end it earlier10:47
troy_sOh I thought you were going to say indefinitely.10:47
troy_sToo bad.10:47
kwwiihehe10:47
kwwiinobody gets an indefinite contract10:47
troy_sOh well, I guess it is better than nothing when you need a gig.10:47
kwwiiat least from what I have heard10:47
kwwiiyepp10:47
kwwiiI am happy with it10:47
troy_sHow many hours per week?  Full time?10:48
kwwiiyepp10:48
troy_sWell that's good.10:48
kwwiiand they did ask me if I will do ubuntu stuff too10:48
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troy_sStill need a bloody design pattern.10:48
kwwiibut i think that comes down to my experienc in print graphics and making the usplash stuff10:48
kwwiiyepp10:48
troy_sIt seems everyone is incapable of delivering such a device.10:48
kwwiithere is still a lot to work out, and my contract means little in the longer term of things10:49
kwwiiwell, I wrote the bootsplash (the first splash stuff) so I have a bit of experience working on lowcolor graphics10:49
kwwiiprobably more than most10:49
troy_s???10:50
alefterisanyone knows what is the font used for the "local community team" text at this image https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/Logo?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu_uk_logo_v5.png ??10:50
troy_sLost me on that statement.10:50
troy_sYou know about the font search engine alefteris ?10:50
troy_soh that's an easy one10:50
alefterisno10:50
troy_ssudo apt-get install ubuntu-title10:50
troy_sit is a god awful ugly font in terms of mechanics however10:50
troy_syou will manually need to adjust the spacing for example.10:51
alefterisit does seem to be the ubuntu font, the "m" is completely different10:51
alefterisamong others10:51
troy_serm10:51
troy_si stand corrected10:51
troy_syes the tails indicate10:51
troy_sthat it is modata i believe10:51
troy_slet me just check that for you10:51
troy_salefteris: Try mgOpen Modata10:53
troy_sOk?10:53
alefterisitsnt not modata, it does have rounded edges.. :(10:54
alefterisdoes not have10:54
troy_serm.10:54
kwwiitroy_s: I meant that I learned how to do linux artwork when it was still pixel-pushing and low-color doesn't scare me10:55
troy_sare you talking about the a?10:55
troy_skwwii sadly I remember developing work when you had to reference pixels in a hex lookup table.10:56
troy_s_very_ sad.10:56
troy_salefteris: the 'a'?10:56
alefteristroy_s, all chars10:56
kwwiitroy_s: yepp, that is what doing the usplash is all about unfortunately10:56
troy_scurrently?10:56
kwwiinote that the bootsplash (my stuff not the usplash) has been jpeg stuff form the beginning10:57
troy_skwwii, sorry... currently?  it was an import as of the last version.10:57
troy_susplash is a simple compile step, or rather was.10:57
kwwiiyeah, well, not the kubuntu version :-)10:57
troy_slord10:57
kwwiino, it is still limited colors10:57
troy_syes10:57
kwwiialthough it is more than 16 (thanks be to god)10:57
troy_si meant lookup table.  i can't think of anything that still uses a lookup table.10:57
troy_sits 8bpp palettized now isn't it?10:58
kwwiisure, if it is a color mapped file it is a look up table10:58
troy_sso you at least have exposure to the true colour spectrum10:58
troy_seven if it is somewhat limited ;)10:58
kwwiiyou just get to determine the colors in the table10:58
kwwiiexactly10:58
troy_syes.  stair interpolations take care of that better than any alg.10:58
kwwiiyepp10:58
troy_sprobably write one quickly using bash or msl.10:58
kwwiialthough you cannot simply do anything you want10:59
troy_s(that imagemagick markup language)10:59
kwwiiso you have to think about the implementation when creating the design10:59
troy_sthat is probably a good thing10:59
kwwiiamazing, that10:59
kwwii:p10:59
troy_syou always should.10:59
troy_s;)10:59
kwwiisure, but most "artists" do not realize taht10:59
kwwiithat10:59
troy_sit does a bunch of good stuff though thanks to seveas like the animation etc.10:59
troy_si don't know... they teach you medium training in art school 00001, unless you mean someone without training.11:00
kwwiiyeah, did some amazing stuff, making it finally worthwhile to worry about the design11:00
troy_shaven't looked into usplash too much of late though.11:00
kwwiiwell, almost all linux artist have no training11:00
troy_sas right now11:00
kwwiiit is the same as before11:00
troy_son my lovely 64bit box11:00
troy_swe have exactly 16 colours of grey11:01
troy_sor less11:01
troy_sit is still pooched11:01
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troy_s?11:01
troy_swtf is an x60?11:01
troy_syou mean amd64 (EMT64)?11:01
kwwiithinkpad x6011:01
troy_soh cool11:01
troy_s!11:01
troy_sgreat little unit11:01
kwwiitiny as hell11:01
troy_swhat chip is in it though?11:01
kwwiivery light11:01
kwwiicore duo11:01
troy_serk11:01
troy_smod 1 or 2?11:01
kwwii80bg hard drive11:02
kwwii211:02
troy_su know?11:02
kwwiiworks perfectly with linux11:02
troy_swell at least that is an upside... the nicest thing about that unit is that it is very free software friendly.11:02
troy_swhat made you decide to get one?11:02
kwwiihaving only macs made me want to get one11:02
kwwiiit is the perfect mobile test machine for me11:02
kwwiireally light and small11:03
troy_salefteris: http://www.creativepro.com/eservices/fontsearch11:03
troy_swhat did it cost you?11:03
troy_si have been toying with getting a Turion X211:03
kwwii1700 euros11:03
troy_sthey are deadly cheap at the moment.11:03
troy_sAGGggahhhhahhhahhhhhhhahhhheeeeehhhhh11:03
kwwiiwith the docking station11:03
troy_s*thud*11:03
troy_sthat is just stuipd11:03
troy_sstupid11:03
troy_sin terms of markup11:04
kwwiimy mac cost much more than that11:04
troy_sthat is like... almost11:04
troy_s340011:04
kwwiidude, in europe computers cost muchmore11:04
troy_syeah apparently!11:04
kwwiihonestly11:04
troy_swhat a rip off11:04
troy_scan't you buy online and ship?11:04
troy_slike from ncix.com or something?11:04
kwwiimy mac cost 210011:04
kwwiinope11:04
kwwiiI would have to pay taxes when it comes through the mail11:04
troy_swow... that is a lot of money for a piece of junk that is obsolete in a year.11:04
troy_serk11:04
kwwiitrue11:04
troy_sthat is bloody bonkers.11:05
troy_sBONKERS11:05
kwwiibut in europe everything costs more11:05
troy_syes i am familiar with that...11:05
kwwiia macbook costs 150011:05
troy_sa trip to england for this old canadian kid is deadly11:05
alefteristroy_s, thanks but that search engine does help a lot when you have no idea that the font name is..11:05
troy_salefteris -- there are some there that11:05
troy_sdo it by 'serif' 'sans' etc.11:05
troy_sand show you progressive disclosure11:05
kwwiithe funny thing is that in america people in this business earn more than here11:06
kwwiiso where are they throwing their money away?11:06
troy_swhat business?11:06
kwwiialthough I am now a registered artist11:06
kwwiiIT11:06
troy_swhat do you mean by registered?11:06
troy_sthat sounds...11:06
troy_s...11:06
troy_sworrysome11:06
kwwiiso with that, I only pay a few hundred euros for my insurances (all the different one in europe)11:07
kwwiiit means that I get support from the german government11:07
kwwiithe pay 90% of my insurance11:07
troy_sah11:07
troy_sinsurance on what?  home and car?11:08
kwwiihere you have social insurance (wellfare, unemployment), health insurance, and one or two others11:08
kwwiinothing to do with cars or home11:09
kwwiithat is extra11:09
troy_salefteris: try this one:11:09
troy_shttp://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/11:09
kwwiiand the taxes will kill you11:09
kwwiitry paying 59% taxes11:09
kwwiibut then again, if I am unemployed I get a lot of money11:09
troy_suh11:10
troy_si pay 54% each and every day11:10
kwwiiand I got a lot of money to start my own company11:10
troy_smax bracket here in canada11:10
kwwii1.7x what I earned before11:10
troy_sso i feel your pain :)11:10
kwwiiyeah, that is the highest tax bracket too11:10
troy_sso do you have any plans for kub?11:11
kwwiibut since canonical is based outside of the EU, 19 percent falls away11:11
kwwiiyepp, we are going to push the edgy stuff further11:11
troy_sWell good... you have Riddell on your side which makes matters easier.11:12
kwwiiactually, this time we have a few really good people to help11:12
kwwiithat is true11:12
troy_sGood to hear.11:12
kwwiiyepp11:12
troy_sThe basic art team grew massively over edg11:13
kwwiiI guess I will be helping with ubuntu in some ways as well11:13
troy_sI think we are at 204 members now... from 17 at the beginning.11:13
troy_sThere is no way to help Ubuntu at this juncture...11:13
troy_sIt is either flog away as current11:13
kwwiithere is a big push in the kubuntu team to have one branding strategy for all of *buntu11:13
troy_sGee... there is a novel idea.11:14
kwwiiwhich would be great for all of us11:14
troy_s;)11:14
troy_sYes.11:14
troy_sBut the politicking might have issues.11:14
kwwiibut we need to create something to convince the higher powers that it is a good plan and worthwhile to attemp11:14
kwwiit11:14
troy_sDifficult when it comes to sabdfl.11:14
kwwiiyepp, rgiht11:14
troy_sThe guy is one helluva bright fellow, but at one point he was actually attempting to argue colour theory with me.11:15
troy_sWhich is funny.11:15
troy_sJust made me chuckle in the end.11:15
troy_sIt is exceptionally unfortunate considering the juncture that technology is at currently.  Vista is due out shortly -- which will certainly highlight the excessive nature of plastic11:16
troy_sA great chance for the artists to turn their cheek and head in a new direction... instead of playing dog chase cat games.11:16
troy_salefteris: did that link help?11:16
msikmaI've shown Vista to many artists11:16
msikmaI've not once met an artist that liked it11:17
troy_sWell it is ...11:17
troy_sexcessive in many ways.11:17
troy_sit really is the culmination of too many years heading towards plastic11:17
troy_sand gloss11:17
msikmaIt's ridiculous. Even if you strip it of its pointless transparency and other such effects.11:17
troy_shopefully it will develop a reaction -- like every art movement.11:17
msikmaIt's the culmination of /Microsoft/ heading towards plastic, though.11:17
troy_sPlastic is done.11:17
troy_sDon't get me wrong, it had its time.11:18
troy_sBut like every genre, it passes.11:18
msikmaThey and their hestitatingly, almost paranoid way of designing interfaces that "convey the nature of their system".11:18
troy_s(not to mention when you dress up a bloody operating system like a cross between a hooker and tammy faye baker)11:18
troy_sProbably agree with you.11:19
troy_sAlthough even the well lauded Apple inc has drifted far away from reality.11:19
msikmaI strongly believe that this kind of interfaces still will be made for a while to come, but Vista certainly isn't helping the genre. :)11:19
troy_sTheir notions of simplicity and such have given way to peddling gadgetry interfaces.11:19
troy_smsikma: Have you seen the itunes shift/.11:20
msikmaThey have been toning down the excessiveness of their interface the past years, though.11:20
msikmaThe new iTunes looks terrible.11:20
troy_s(as much as I despise the company, they do have a solid design team that tracks contemporary movement well)11:20
troy_smsikma -- watch their entire interface shift to it.11:20
msikmaI don't get the new iTunes interface.11:21
troy_sare you speaking of the matte approach?11:21
msikmaIt's more flat, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the system as much, and it just generally seems to miss what I presumed were Apple design targets.11:21
troy_smsikma -- apple has designers with education11:22
troy_sit is mandatory to work there11:22
kwwiioh, I think it shows a new direction for apple11:22
troy_si can assure you that they are all participants in design meetings.11:22
msikmaYour point being?11:22
kwwiithey test the waters first11:22
troy_smeaning that they too are seeing gloss done.11:22
kwwiiand then they move11:22
troy_sand, in an attempt to stay ahead in the field, they are slowly implementing the new trends into their interfaces.11:22
kwwiidefinitely11:23
troy_s(which unfortunately does nothing for consistency sake across say, itunes, garageband, etc,)11:23
kwwiiI have seen this coming since garage band11:23
TheSheephello guys!11:23
troy_sthey probably have their hands handcuffed by the politics11:23
kwwiithey tried different ideas11:23
msikmaI doubt that this trend will last. The iTunes-like interface, that is. This seems like a test, like you say, but I find that it doesn't really add much actual use to the whole. It simply is a less good design, regardless of whether gloss is done or not.11:23
kwwiiand I think the itunes stuff won out11:23
troy_smsikma -- I will bet you 1000 dollars on it.11:23
kwwiime too11:23
msikmaThe iPhone is very glossy.11:23
troy_skwwii -- i think garageband is more attempting to be a niche11:24
troy_smsikma -- it isn't out yet.11:24
kwwiialthough I like the garage band look much better11:24
alefteristroy_s, this search engine did the trick :) it was Arial Rounded MT Bold11:24
kwwiitroy_s: agreed11:24
troy_smsikma -- the iphone is almost the epitome of middle grey11:24
alefteristroy_s, thanks a lot11:24
msikmaThey aren't going to change the design around that much anymore. I sincerely doubt they will. That's something /I'm/ willing to bet 1000 USD on.11:24
troy_sit is a screen11:24
troy_sand a wheel11:24
troy_smsikma -- the gloss factor you are seeing in the iphone is largely marketing.  unto itself it is more an exercise in minimalistic design11:24
msikmaAll design by Apple is marketing.11:25
troy_smsikma -- wow.11:25
msikmaOkay, not all.11:25
msikmaBut plenty.11:25
troy_smsikma -- actually, j.ives et all are pretty solid designers when it comes to education and implementation.11:25
troy_sthat said, they are riding in a beast that can't keep up right now.11:25
kwwiinote that the icons shown are of completely diffenent stle11:25
kwwiistyle11:25
=== klepas [n=klepas@169.222.9.205] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_skwwii -- indeed!11:25
msikmaThey are excellent designers, but Apple's implementations of any design are centered around marketing. It's marketing that's made Apple such a beloved company.11:26
kwwiigod, my old keyboard died and I hate this one11:26
troy_sthe only legacy of their old regime is that god awful white gloss on the keynote11:26
troy_ssteve jobs the snake oil salesman made them the company they are... performer.  snake oil salesman.  thief.  ;)11:26
troy_sgreets TheSheep... sorry missed your post.11:26
msikmatroy_s: you forgot "much more successful".11:27
kwwiireminds me of sbdfl in many ways11:27
troy_smsikma -- without the performance11:27
troy_serm kwwii11:27
troy_swithout the performance11:27
msikmaI don't see why Jobs would care about that.11:27
troy_sthe most critical component11:27
troy_sperformance being 'acting'11:27
TheSheepsome are to made to lead and some are made to follow11:27
kwwiiwell, give him a bit of time and experience11:27
kwwiiand someone to trust11:27
msikmaJobs' purpose is to keep his shareholders' kids' mouths fed. He does this by making computers, an operating system, and a bunch of gadgets.11:28
msikmaHe does that well.11:28
troy_smsikma probably agree.  that said, those times for our computing health have passed.11:28
troy_sapple is a dinosaur11:28
troy_scomputers do too much these days to have our vested interests wound up in a nightmare spiral of OSX/Vista DRM/CRM at low levels.11:28
TheSheeptroy_s: the basic problem with non-glossy non-plastic designs is: how do you make them look brand new :)11:29
msikmaTherefore I don't see your point when you say that Jobs is a <insert insult here>. It seems like pointless complaining about him, while it really isn't his greatest dream to make the computer systems that /we/ desire.11:29
troy_sTheSheep... I don't know if it is critical to make things brand new11:29
troy_sthat again, is a learned expectation based on contemporary design.11:29
TheSheeptroy_s: it is for apple and ms11:29
troy_sTheSheep -- exactly.  Dinosaurs.11:29
msikmatroy_s: do you see Ubuntu as a competitor in the Linux market, or as a competitor in the operating system market?11:30
TheSheeppersonally I think that user interface will slowly disappear completely in a few years -- I mean the visuals11:30
troy_sTheSheep -- to draw an analogy, when rustic hardwood floors took off, it was a 'strange' thought that people would pay for an object purposefully abused with a hammer and nail :)11:30
troy_sTheSheep: probably agree with you.11:30
troy_smsikma: Given time, Ubuntu is the first primitive step away from company centric operating systems to democratic and free society based operating systems.11:30
troy_sIt isn't the end all.11:31
troy_snor perfect11:31
msikmaAnd what I'm really asking you here is what you see as an "operating system", and what additional attributes you believe a "Linux operating system" has.11:31
troy_sbut certainly a _step_ in the proper direction.11:31
troy_sLinux is irrelevant11:31
troy_sGNU is probably more relevant.11:31
TheSheepmeans to the goal11:31
troy_sTheSheep: Agreed.11:31
msikmaI agree with you on the fact that Linux is irrelevant, but I also believe that GNU is (less so) irrelevant.11:31
troy_skwwii: I think he will either need to hire a spokesperson (unlikely) or spend some time learning how to do it slightly more effectively.11:32
TheSheepsome day kids will learn about this at school and won't believe11:32
troy_sGNU is the practical approach to a world that isn't utopian (read people who would wage war via patents and such)11:32
troy_sTheSheep: Completely 100% on the money11:32
troy_s"You used to use operating systems controlled by companies?"11:32
troy_sVery much along the same lines as comparing democracy in its infancy11:32
msikmaAnyway, I still firmly believe that, borrowing your terminology for a minute, in order for Ubuntu to succeed, it will have to become one of those dinosaurs.11:33
troy_sWhen other's didn't care etc.11:33
TheSheep"WHat do you mean you coudn't use without paying? Paying for what?"11:33
troy_sBy dinosaur I mean 'too old, too slow, too passee'11:33
troy_snot 'big'11:33
troy_subuntu is already 'big'11:33
TheSheeptroy_s: have you seen Plan9? :)11:33
alefterisI cant rename layers in inkscape, is it a known bug?11:33
troy_sTheSheep: Not unless you mean Ed Wood's work :)11:33
msikmaI thought you meant "big, strong, able to swallow up smaller beasts, seen by many due to their size".11:33
troy_salefteris: I believe so11:33
troy_salefteris: Try this -- change the name in the layer creation toolbox when it comes up.11:34
troy_salefteris: Let me try my compile i made today11:34
troy_smsikma:  No, I mean well on the way to extinction11:34
TheSheeptroy_s: it's an old thing, a different approach to ui architecture. looks ugly, as there are no shiny buttons and stuff -- actually there are almost no ui elements11:34
troy_smsikma: Ubuntu is the current 'sexy beast' that all the hip crowd (aside from the existing in distro land crowd) is looking to.11:34
troy_sTheSheep: With you 100%11:35
msikmaI don't get it, troy. You say that Microsoft and Apple are "too slow, too old", etc., but in reality, Ubuntu is currently nothing compared to them. Obviously, it's unfair to label them as such. I think that you shouldn't say that until you've been able to prove that your fancy new operating system is the right way.11:35
msikmaThat's something personal.11:35
troy_smsikma:  you are kidding right?11:35
msikmaI'm definitely not kidding.11:35
troy_smsikma: Look how far Ubuntu has come in less than 3 - 4 years.11:35
troy_smsikma: Look at the mainstream media press.  Look at the apple converts (the die hards I might add)11:35
troy_slook at the reaction to DRM11:35
troy_setc.11:35
troy_sAs with all revolutions, they take time to hit critical mass.11:36
msikmaThat doesn't mean I believe it isn't going to hit a snag by the time the really big audience, those who think that Windows equals their computer, will begin to notice it. There are prerequisites before that will happen.11:36
TheSheeplook at the number of ubuntu forks :)11:36
troy_smsikma -- it is coming.11:36
troy_smsikma -- it has a long way to go, but again, the progress is almost at light speed.11:36
msikmaWith design and marketing like this (geez, just look at the website), I can't see it coming.11:37
troy_smsikma -- that i would probably agree with on some level.11:37
TheSheepmsikma: what's wrong with the website?11:37
msikmaReally, Ubuntu is an incredible system that's capable of doing anything really well, but there is a huge, huge marketing problem with it.11:37
troy_sA) no design strategy -- but that is problematic in association with the needs and goals of free software.11:37
msikmaIt currently has an extremely successful viral marketing campaign going, but that's it.11:37
troy_sA.1) Perhaps a larger design strategy needs to be addressed within all of FOSS11:37
msikmaTheSheep: where to start, where to start...11:37
troy_smsikma -- it has more than that.11:38
troy_smsikma -- Remember before novell -- sab was in touch with Dell, Sun, etc.11:38
troy_sthe tides are changing.11:38
=== TheSheep looks at microsoft.com
troy_sTheSheep: I think the webpage is symptomatic of the ever prevalent problem within the FOSS 'art' community...11:38
TheSheepuh, a flyer design11:38
troy_sTheSheep: Not enough planning before implementation :)11:39
kwwiitroy_s: I think he realized the problems and want to give it to someone who knows more, only that is a very hard thing because in the linux world this has not existed until now11:39
kwwiiI mean, how much does apple pay for all of this11:39
kwwiimore than he wants to pay11:39
TheSheeptroy_s: I can see how badly that moinmoin is hacked11:39
troy_skwwii: Agreed.  But it isn't just pay.11:39
kwwiisure11:39
TheSheeptroy_s: I did some development with moinmoin, you see11:39
msikmatroy_s: how about a non-designer who made the site design who shouldn't have had to make it in the first place11:39
troy_skwwii:  Primarily, it is finding the components of a team that is building something that has no track record11:39
kwwiibut unless you are in the know, it comes down to that11:39
TheSheeptroy_s: they even use some of my icons ;)11:39
troy_sno history11:39
troy_sit is all completely ... fresh ground.11:40
kwwiiture11:40
kwwiitrue11:40
msikmaHmm.11:40
kwwiidamn keyboard11:40
troy_sTheSheep -- speaking of icons... sketches?11:40
msikmaI once read a funny quote11:40
msikma"Design is a smiling cat with a tie."11:40
troy_skwwii -- when people say 'that isn't how it is done' in terms of this sort of project, they should probably sit down and shut up.  NONE of us know how this should work.11:40
TheSheeptroy_s: hah! sorry, didn't have much time11:40
troy_setc.11:40
msikmaIt's this that Ubuntu currently misses.11:40
troy_sTheSheep -- stinker.11:40
troy_smsikma -- but giving up wont solve the problem11:41
troy_swe really need to agree that our common ground is to make things better11:41
TheSheeptroy_s: hey, I've got some real work to do too11:41
msikmaI admire your ability to keep on going, troy_s. I certainly would have given up long ago if I had to face the problems that you face in Ubuntu artwork production.11:41
troy_sand that we all need to very much value the people who bother to get involved... figure out a way to work together in a manner that has yet to be utilized in FOSS etc...11:41
troy_sTheSheep: Still a stinker.11:41
TheSheeptroy_s: sure11:41
troy_smsikma: I have none.11:41
troy_smsikma: I certainly have very well known disagreements with how the art and design of ubuntu should proceed, but again, that is just bikeshedding for the large part.11:42
msikmaI think that, due to others slowing you down, you can't get as much as 1% done of what you'd /like/ to get done.11:42
troy_sNot my role nor my goal.11:42
troy_swe have some talented folks involved with ubuntu artwork...11:42
troy_sfinding a way to utilize and harness their abilities is a trick.11:42
msikmaIf it's not your goal to get done what you want to get done, then what is it?11:43
troy_sespecially with the needs and aspirations of sabdfl.11:43
TheSheepmsikma: create situations in which it's also others' goal :)11:43
msikmasabdfl has aspirations, but he is unable to get a decent community artwork team started, and he does not hire the right people to do contractual work.11:43
troy_smsikma -- Personally?  I want to see an environment that reflects what Ubuntu is -- it is a foray into the future in terms of technology.  We should be more liberal with our approach in terms of art and design.  NOT follow the 'existing' monsters.11:43
msikmaSo obviously other people will need to jump in to fulfill sabdfl's ambitions.11:44
kwwiitroy_s: I think that is the sign of someone trying to solve problem he/she does not really understand11:44
troy_sI think ultimately, sabdfl is insecure.  It is the nature of a geek background I think ;_11:44
troy_skwwii -- yes.11:44
troy_sI have a great quotation from a book... let me find it11:44
troy_sroughly11:44
kwwiiyou always have great quotes :-)11:45
troy_s"Applying techniques that have worked before with success to something that is different."11:45
troy_sparaphrased11:45
kwwiiyepp11:45
kwwiiwell, we will see what the future holds11:45
troy_snot to sound wholly utopian and fairy like, but we really need to collaborate on levels that have yet to be seen11:45
kwwiitotally true11:45
troy_sand push the envelope11:45
troy_sHave the room for people to fail, and be successful in failing... if that makes any sense from a zen standpoint ;)11:45
kwwiiI think that having one branding strategy for everything would simplifiy the matter11:46
coz_absolutely guys sorry ai am supproting on other channels and will be more concentrated here in a moment pLEASE don't leave :)11:46
troy_skwwii -- when you speak branding...11:46
msikmatroy_s: getting back to the "design is a smiling cat with a tie" quote from a second ago. Don't you think that Ubuntu has even a snowball's chance in hell of becoming a widely used operating system if it misses this factor?11:46
troy_swhat are you speaking of in terms of targets?11:46
TheSheepbranding is in the way of good design :(11:46
troy_smsikma -- no11:46
troy_smsikma -- it has the snowballs chance to get it into the eyes, but unless we all act fast, it could very well be an opportunity missed.11:47
kwwiitroy_s: I mean that we need a total branding strategy for all of *buntu with slight modifications  for every variant11:47
troy_sTheSheep: Don't be too knee jerk -- kwwii knows what he is talking about.11:47
kwwiino reason to recreate the wheel for everything11:47
troy_skwwii -- Agree 100%... it would be lovely to gather a motif and agree upon it.11:47
kwwiiexactly11:47
TheSheeptroy_s: sorry, I've just seen so many projects defated with branding11:47
TheSheeptroy_s: the word itself hurts :)11:47
msikmaThen why have I seen so incredibly and almost ridiculously few attempts by Ubuntu contributors to attempt to attain such a factor? It's like many people don't even know it exists. Maybe that is in the nature of a geek.11:48
troy_sTheSheep -- if I based my life on the failures of others, I certainly would have gotten no where.11:48
kwwiibut until now there has been too much political disagreement/desktop-religion involved11:48
TheSheeptroy_s: I base it on mine11:48
coz_msikma, sorry could you ecplain that I wasn't paining attention11:48
troy_smsikma -- One part training.  One part knowledge.  One part thought.  Three parts execution.11:48
coz_msikma, this thing about ubuntu contributors/11:48
troy_skwwii Another very astute point.11:48
troy_sThe politics in FOSS are depressing.11:48
kwwiiif we could all get together and works things out as one team, and pick the best resolution we would get a lot further, step by step than ever before11:48
troy_skwwii -- arguably with a solid guess of a blueprint in place before we start.11:49
kwwiiyepp, exactly11:49
troy_sDecide on WHAT mountain to climb before we start moving our arms and legs.11:49
kwwiiperhaps now that things are so disparate there is a real chance of that11:49
coz_well in my opinion if the art team were recognized as abolutely necessary11:49
troy_sWhich is the unfortunate part of Edgy -- we really made terrific gains in terms of learning Launchpad etc.11:49
troy_sAll overlooked by sabdfl.11:49
coz_all would be well11:49
kwwiiI mean, the only way from where we are now is up11:50
troy_scoz_  That isn't something that will just be bestowed11:50
troy_scoz_  The proof is in the pooding so to speak :)11:50
coz_troy_s, i know but that is just a a lack on shuttleworths abilities11:50
TheSheepkwwii: I see current contributors as a bunch of ants running around and fixing this and that -- but it's really hard to find what is actually needed at the moment and how it is expected to be done11:50
msikmacoz_: I was mentioning how very, very few Ubuntu contributors, whether artwork-related or code-related, have any knowledge of the power of marketing and its effect on a system's appeal to the major audience.11:50
kwwiiit is  recognized as necesarry11:50
troy_skwwii -- that assumes that we don't have a good deal of infrastructure in place.11:50
troy_skwwii -- which we do11:50
coz_msikma,  i agree11:50
troy_skwwii -- Daniel has the automated artwork pacaking11:50
troy_sfor example11:50
kwwiithat is why there are so many problems from so many people how know so little11:50
troy_skwwii -- I dare say that our 'artists' don't spend enough time sharing their knowledge11:51
coz_kwwii, who do you work for?11:51
kwwiiyeah, I worked a bit on that with daniel as well11:51
msikmacoz_: and it seems that this means there are very few people around who actually have had something to do with graphic design, as you can hardly be a graphic designer and not know at least the basics of marketing.11:51
kwwiicoz_: I work for canonical as of next monday11:51
troy_skwwii -- one of the points that he totally missed with Frank -- frank initiated a _lot_ of infrastructure... only to get burned.11:51
coz_kwwii, well suggest to them that the team neesa to be hired there11:52
coz_needs11:52
kwwiitroy_s: I warned frank about all of this11:52
troy_sTheSheep -- you are spot on with ants.11:52
troy_skwwii -- the infrastructure is more important than the output...11:52
troy_sunfortunately 99% of the people only see output.11:52
kwwiiI told him how I thought this would all work out, and it happened exactly as I saw it11:52
kwwiiunfortunately11:53
troy_skwwii -- its a longer term approach11:53
troy_sshort term doesn't cut it.11:53
kwwiiyepp, and everyone has to be willing to bend11:53
coz_kwwii, no11:53
troy_sTheSheep: The ants need to prove to the hivemaster that they are capable of fixing things the way he wants it... from there we might have a hope.11:53
msikmaI really need to make it my priority to make a new website design for Ubuntu.com. It's highly visible. Nobody else is doing it or even thinking about it. I can hardly believe that with the userbase Ubuntu has, nobody has yet risen his hand and said "sir, this is not the right way".11:53
kwwiiit is not a desktop specific thing in the end11:53
troy_skwwii -- If his sole goal is to put stuff in place, head over to gnome-look11:53
coz_kwwii, you need to bend because you have a position that could be threatened with  any other attitude11:53
coz_ kwwii  not meant to be a put down by the way11:53
msikmaI really think that the front page of the site embodies some of the bad things about the current state of Ubuntu artwork.11:54
troy_skwwii -- if he wants to challenge the big boys, he needs to create a creative environment where people are going to try new things.11:54
kwwiiit is not about creating the best solution for what has existed until now, but to create something better11:54
kwwiixactly11:54
troy_skwwii bingo11:54
troy_skwwii This isn't about the status quo f*ck the status quo11:54
msikmaThe placement of elements, the text, the strange and awkward navigation, the misuse of the logo typeface...11:54
kwwiicoz_: I disagree11:54
coz_better in what frame of reference11:54
coz_kwwii,  I know you do11:54
troy_skwwii Harness what we have and create something new.  Something that the Apple's and the Microsoft's will chase.11:55
troy_sAnd they DO chase -- (look at wiki's, webservers, virtual workspaces, etc.)11:55
kwwiibut work outside the boungs11:55
troy_sIt is just that in terms of design and art,11:55
kwwiibouds11:55
kwwiiahhh11:55
kwwiibounds11:55
coz_bounds11:55
kwwiiyeah11:55
coz_lol11:55
troy_sthe FOSS community is _horrible_ at progressive design.11:55
coz_troy_s, excuse my ingornace FOSS?11:56
msikmaIt almost seems like it's against its nature, troy_s.11:56
kwwiimove ahead and not in paralell11:56
kwwiierm spelling11:56
msikmaFree and Open Source Software.11:56
coz_oh11:56
troy_smsikma -- some say that... but the reality is that FOSS _works_ in terms of coding11:56
kwwiiI give up with this keyboard11:56
troy_sit produces some TIGHT code11:56
coz_what does foss have to do with art?11:56
troy_swith CLEAN implementation.11:56
troy_set.c11:56
msikmaI agree.11:56
troy_sDesign wise it is bound up in ego, bikeshedding, and power tripping.11:56
troy_sArt and design11:56
troy_snot to mention a good share of opportunists who need money and try to make something for their own personal gains.11:57
troy_scoz_ perhaps you need to think that question through.11:57
coz_troy_s, well i see no connection11:57
TheSheepI think there is a need for Graphics Design Guidelines, similar to HIG11:57
troy_sTheSheep: Process...11:57
msikmacoz_: FOSS is nice, but if anyone wants FOSS to appeal to a major audience, then nice code isn't gonna cut it.11:57
troy_sJ.Ives best quote was something like "More than what we produced at Apple I will remember the process."11:57
troy_sProcess is key.11:57
coz_msikma, right I understand that part11:58
msikmaJoe Next Door doesn't care about well-commented code.11:58
troy_sIt isn't just about sitting down and pushing fricking pixels.11:58
TheSheeptroy_s: unless you're a one-man factory11:58
msikmaAlthough that would be a nice /start/, troy_s.11:58
troy_smsikma -- and they don't care about the sweat and effort that went into the design process for say, the iPod.11:58
troy_sTheSheep: Which, when we get to the scaling fallacy, simply doesn't work for the scope of a project like say, Ubuntu11:58
troy_sYou need help11:58
troy_sYou need support,11:58
troy_sWe need collaboration and respect11:59
coz_troy_s, I dont' eqate desing for the iPod an artist develpment11:59
TheSheepyou will get any help if you only can communicate what you need11:59
msikmaOh, don't even start. If you even begin to talk about something like that, some might call you a proprietary software troll. It's gotten to the point where you don't even know whether the next random FOSS enthusiast will want to even talk to you.11:59
troy_smsikma -- why push pixels until you know that those pixels will hit a target?11:59
kwwiicoz_: remeber when said that this conversation took place later in the evening, european time?11:59
kwwii:-)11:59
coz_kwwii,  lol yeah! :)11:59
coz_talking at last !11:59
kwwiiwell, +1 for me11:59
kwwii:p11:59
coz_:)12:00
troy_smsikma -- I have a fundamental vison and belief that our computing world is in dire straights thanks to MS and Apple.  I watched it grow from the Apple ] [ into something far ... bigger.12:00
msikmaWhen I first joined up here, I was almost ready to take off right away because after I said that I was working as ActionScript programmer, you started lecturing me about how it's proprietary and unusable on your 64-bit platform. That's actually the reason why I initially acted bitter towards you until we resolved things privately.12:00
troy_sAnd I _do_ believe that we need to step up and be vocal about those problems.12:00
troy_smsikma -- Yes... I was there.  Ultimately, though, the success to which someone like Adobe banks Flash upon is based on a tool that was developed as an OPEN means of communication -- the browser.12:01
coz_admitedly I have come in in the middle fo this conversation and I ma a bit conrfused here12:01
coz_I am an artist make not mistake12:01
troy_sIt is the subtle attempt to steer the fundamental goal of the 'web' information away from what it was _designed_ for into a medium to make money selling development tools.12:02
coz_and i DO NOT want a prgrammer involved in decision making for anything that deal sith art12:02
coz_inlcudsing shuttleworth12:02
troy_scoz_ If that programmer happens to be someone interested in mathmatics/theory/science, like say, leonardo da vinci, I welcome them.12:02
coz_excuse my tying12:02
coz_typing12:02
TheSheepcoz_: you need programmers involved, or your design will be impossible12:02
kwwiilet's alll forget what has happened until now, and work on something new and better12:02
troy_sFuther coz_, who do you think is going to design those bloody design implementations?12:02
TheSheepcoz_: you also need usability experts, or your design will be unusable12:03
msikmaThat's beside the point, troy_s. The point is that I and a whole lot of other people have certain expectations of the Linux crowd, and when you told me those things when I joined up, you confirmed those expectations. They aren't good expectations.12:03
troy_skwwii -- I think we need to keep building it...12:03
coz_TheSheep, I need programmers to make the code artists take over from there12:03
TheSheepcoz_: you can't split it12:03
kwwiiI for onne am all for moving forward12:03
TheSheepcoz_: you need to work together12:03
troy_scoz_  You won't get that without realizing that we are _all_ on the same team.12:03
kwwiimsikma: what is "the linux crowd"12:03
msikmaAnd that is one of the problems with the Linux community. A really big one. The inability to just keep one's mouth shut at some point and allow people to begin accepting Linux for what it is, and not because other operating systems are "evil" or "wrong" or even "anti-social".12:03
troy_smsikma: Fres Software is a little bigger than linux.12:03
coz_TheSheep, yes I can i will not presume that i am capable of telling a prgrammer how to code and i will NOT alow programmer to tell me how what is apropriate for the design12:04
kwwiithe gnome peeps or the xubuntu peeps or kubuntu?12:04
troy_scoz_  You dont' think that just about anyone has some element of a good idea regarding art and design?12:04
troy_sWouldn't that be rather like suggesting that someone who say, illustrates for a living has no clue as to what they might want in terms of a software tool?12:04
coz_troy_s, calaboration is at the heart of this yet but final dexisions of art NEVER makde by a programmer12:04
msikmatroy_s: the trillions of dollars made every year with HR systems alone is made partially thanks to Linux, and partially also thanks to free software, but nobody knows or cares. Linux is a fact. Free software is a curiosity. And the reason? Marketing.12:05
kwwiithe *buntu stuff needs to move forward, no matter what12:05
msikma*nobody knows or cares about the latter.12:05
troy_smsikma -- regarding the bigger picture -- it is changing rapidly too.12:05
kwwiimsikma: we can change that if we try12:05
msikmaYou mean regarding HR systems, for example?12:05
troy_skwwii Yes.12:05
troy_skwwii -- but again, it still requires the support in the light of sabdfl.12:06
TheSheeppeople actually start installing linux at homes12:06
kwwiinot necessarily12:06
troy_skwwii and I think we can all agree that ultimately, that is our biggest strength and biggest difficulty.12:06
msikmaYou aren't going to make free software in general more popular than the term "Linux" in the next 30 years in HR systems. (But that was just an example.)12:06
troy_sTheSheep -- gasp -- some of them do all of their work on a FOSS box.12:06
TheSheeptroy_s: sure, but I mean non-geek people :")12:06
troy_smsikma -- If you think that anything will be relevant in 30 years, you are probably mistaken.12:06
troy_s;)12:06
kwwiiif we make something big enough he cannot/will not disturb it12:06
msikmaThe reason is that Linux is one thing, and therefore it can be marketed. Free software is something different that can much less easily be marketed. It doesn't even have a logo.12:06
troy_sTheSheep -- I know of at least 10 people over 60 that run Ubuntu.12:07
kwwiibut until now, we have never gone so far12:07
troy_sall non - geeks. :)12:07
TheSheeptroy_s: that's great12:07
kwwiiI bet that even if we have sommething only halfway decent which reunited the parts he would be totally happy12:08
msikmaNon-geeks over 60 may prove that Ubuntu is usable by people who don't know very much about a computer, but that doesn't prove that its usability is more desirable than that of other systems for people who _do_ know more about computers, troy_s.12:08
coz_Ok how about listing here , the things that you guys think needs to be done and the appraoch to getting them done12:08
kwwiias long as we showed a ptah12:08
kwwiipath12:08
coz_shortly12:08
kwwiiforward12:08
kwwiianyway12:08
kwwiitime for bed here12:08
coz_kwwii, night guy12:08
troy_snicht kwwii12:08
troy_smsikma -- it was the point that in many respect, ubuntu is well past suitable for probably 70% of the population12:09
kwwiisee you tomorrow coz_ and troy_s and everyon else12:09
coz_kwwii, sure sleep well12:09
TheSheepmsikma: the problem with people who thingk they do know a lot about computers is that they in fact only know a lot about windows12:09
msikmatroy_s: personally, I'd want 70% of the population to become more acquainted with computers and actually getting more things done with them than just basic e-mail sending.12:10
troy_sdare i say a good chunk of the 'common computer users' use is 1) Entertainment 2) Communication (email and im) 3) Browsing internet.12:10
coz_TheSheep, I have a small business and i do a lot of conerting people over to ubuntu12:10
coz_converting12:10
troy_smsikma - agree again.12:10
msikmaTheSheep: untrue. Lots of people who know lots about computers will be able to adapt easily. They don't just "know Windows", they understand computers.12:10
coz_they love it they deal with well12:10

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