[02:51] <coz_> evening to all artists :)
[03:16] <troy_s> greets coz)
[03:16] <troy_s> coz_ even
[03:16] <coz_> troy_s, hey guy one minute I have a person i am helping
[03:33] <coz_> troy_s, sorry for the delay
[03:34] <coz_> and sorry for disconnecting myself :)
[04:27] <coz_> night all :)
[11:49] <lapo> yo there
[12:00] <BHSPitLappy> yo
[01:45] <coz_> ok guys, i have asked several times in as many days if any of the devs would remove my gallery and name form the art.ubuntu.com gallery
[01:45] <coz_> I see that it is still there
[01:53] <kwwii> coz_: might be better to poke someone in the evening, european time, that is when there seems to be more discussion
[01:54] <coz_> kwwii, oh really? I often wondered when most of the people here talked :) thanks
[01:54] <kwwii> no prob :-)
[01:54] <coz_> kwwii,  well may not be necessary now found the delete images option on that site
[01:55] <coz_> would lik emy name removed though
[01:55] <kwwii> I can understand that
[01:55] <kwwii> the only reason I use my name is because I am getting paid to do the stuff :-)
[01:56] <coz_> kwwii, well if you need an friend working with you let me know :)
[01:56] <kwwii> coz_: we can use all the help we can get working on kubuntu ;-)
[01:56] <kwwii> everyone is welcome
[01:57] <coz_> kwwii, my problem right now if you haven't heard is that the mods decided to remove a painting of mine from the forums
[01:57] <kwwii> wow, why?
[01:57] <kwwii> was it something morally questionable?
[01:58] <kwwii> I am not too big on forums nor wikis ;-)
[01:58] <coz_> according to the mods the first explanation was tha tit was not family friendly, it was anude painting of a former mod and dev named kassetra
[01:58] <coz_> the second reason was that it ws not  appropriate to show a formoer mods painting in the nude
[01:58] <coz_> without permission but I had that of course
[01:59] <coz_> it is a tasteful painting but I will not tolerate censorship
[01:59] <coz_> so they lose out
[01:59] <kwwii> hrm
[02:00] <coz_> kwwii, would you like to see it?
[02:00] <kwwii> yeah, after the calender stuff we have to be carefull of people's reactions
[02:00] <kwwii> sure, love to
[02:00] <coz_> kwwii, nonsense
[02:00] <coz_> when it is pronyes when it is art NO
[02:00] <coz_> hold on
[02:00] <kwwii> oh, you cannot imagine how many people flipped out about that stuff (although I found it very tastefull)
[02:01] <coz_> kwwii, here you go   http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/1203/kassestrajy8.png
[02:02] <coz_> kwwii, who flipped out about that stuf?
[02:03] <coz_> kwwii, well do you think that is offensive?
[02:03] <kwwii> from what I heard, a lot of people did (note, I was not around at that time)
[02:03] <coz_> kwwii, and your opinion?
[02:03] <kwwii> no, it is not offensive, but then again, in europe stuff like that is normal
[02:04] <kwwii> you can see more than that on normal tv here
[02:04] <coz_> yeah well i am italian
[02:04] <kwwii> ;-)
[02:04] <kwwii> I've lived in germany for 11 years so I am used to it
[02:04] <kwwii> but in america some probably consider that porn
[02:05] <coz_> kwwii, when someone looks at that simply sketch I showed you and sees anything other than what it is , a painting sketch , somethings is wrong
[02:06] <kwwii> yeah, I think so too, but we have to be careful because there are a lot of people out there who are not as accepting as we are
[02:06] <coz_> kwwii, then they either stop looking at it or go elsewhere
[02:06] <kwwii> that is the hard thing about putting stuff on a website for everyone
[02:07] <kwwii> it is more a problem, I guess for, let's say, a kid who likes it, uses it and then his/her parents flip out
[02:07] <coz_> kwwii, not at all they all have achoice the problem with this icident is I had an actual nude photo next to this that wasn't removed at all
[02:07] <kwwii> lol
[02:07] <kwwii> well, perhaps it did have more to do with the fact that people knew that person
[02:07] <coz_> kwwii, on otp of which other photos are still there that are far more suggestive than this
[02:07] <kwwii> hrm
[02:07] <kwwii> funky
[02:08] <coz_> yep so i posited there to help teach that beautiful things can be created with minimal tools
[02:08] <coz_> so theri loss not mine
[02:08] <kwwii> to be honest, I have no info on who even takes care of that stuff, I'm just trying to imagine the situation
[02:08] <kwwii> yeah
[02:08] <kwwii> I wouldn't let it anger you
[02:08] <coz_> kwwii, I already know who did it and what their conflicting views were so...
[02:09] <coz_> anyway
[02:09] <kwwii> sometimes you just have to roll with things
[02:09] <coz_> kwwii, not this no
[02:09] <coz_> kwwii, this needs to be stopped
[02:09] <coz_> i would urge all posters on the forums to remove teir work until this is stopped
[02:09] <kwwii> well, if it was a personal reason, then yeah, it is not right
[02:09] <coz_> make no contributions at all
[02:10] <coz_> kwwii, it ws a political move not a family freindly one
[02:10] <kwwii> I guess that is counter-productive, perhaps having a group meeting to discuss it
[02:10] <coz_> kwwii,  the problem with that is the group meeting would have the same metality of the memebers there
[02:10] <kwwii> often you can cut through such bullshit (sorry for the word) by discussing things in a larger group
[02:11] <kwwii> again, I don't really know who the members are
[02:11] <kwwii> so I can't comment on that or on this particular situation
[02:11] <coz_> kwwii, I don't know what group, this is something that the community has to put  astop to by boycotting
[02:11] <kwwii> or discussing, that really can be quite powerfull too
[02:12] <kwwii> if a 100 people express their opinions that it is wrong, things will change
[02:13] <coz_> kwwii, i all the people on the art team and artists on the forums wouls simply stop support and poisting their work that should give a message of some kind
[02:14] <kwwii> sure, that would get attention, but it is quite a negative approach
[02:14] <kwwii> there is a saying in german "you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar"
[02:14] <coz_> kwwii, same here probably because the US is 57% german :)
[02:15] <kwwii> I can understand how frustrating it can be but I think that trying to take a positive approach might be more helpful for you in the long run
[02:15] <kwwii> lol, yeah
[02:16] <coz_> kwwii, see thats another thing, I am not upset about this at all, other than a fight against censorship. I don't need to show my work for ego or to get ecposure
[02:16] <kwwii> well, that is a good start :-)
[02:16] <kwwii> try and set up a meeting, and discuss stuff like this
[02:16] <coz_> kwwii, but censorship in art cannot exist in this century
[02:17] <kwwii> if we had a good set of rules about this stuff, it would be easier to work these problems out
[02:17] <coz_> kwwii, the ONLY that needs applied is that ONLY an artis can moderate the galleries
[02:17] <kwwii> yeah, that would be nice as well, but often artists are the last people in the world who want to do that work ;-)
[02:18] <kwwii> I know that it takes a lot of time and patience to do it right
[02:18] <coz_> kwwii, I would do it willingly
[02:18] <coz_> just to make sure no programmer or non artist can make a decision about art
[02:18] <kwwii> then you have more patience than I do :-)
[02:18] <coz_> kwwii, it wouldn't take much to do it
[02:19] <coz_> I know what is art and what is porn
[02:19] <coz_> kids play
[02:19] <kwwii> yeah, that is normally pretty easy to see
[02:19] <coz_> kwwii, yep
[02:20] <coz_> kwwii, I assume  you are part of the art team as well?
[02:20] <kwwii> coz_: yepp, I work on kubuntu mainly although that might change in the future
[02:20] <coz_> kwwii, well my name is on the team list however few people new about it :)
[02:21] <coz_> and i don't get paind either
[02:21] <coz_> paid
[02:21] <kwwii> :-)
[02:21] <kwwii> I have to take my wife to the dentist, brb
[02:21] <kwwii> 15min
[02:21] <coz_> kwwii, go guy !:)
[08:28] <troy_s> greets dborg
[08:28] <troy_s> greets msikma
[08:28] <msikma> hi troy
[08:28] <dborg> heya
[10:14] <coz_> afternoon all
[10:30] <troy_s> greetings coz_
[10:30] <coz_> troy_s, hey guy! how are you?
[10:31] <troy_s> Fine thank you...
[10:31] <coz_> well as usual not many people talking here ")
[10:32] <kwwii> lol
[10:32] <kwwii> yeah
[10:32] <kwwii> and when they are, they go like crazy for a while
[10:34] <coz_> kwwii, you know I have never been here to see "crazy" yet "_
[10:34] <kwwii> :p
[10:42] <troy_s> greets kwwii
[10:42] <kwwii> howdy troy_s
[10:42] <kwwii> btw, everyone
[10:43] <kwwii> I will be working on kubuntu artwork and more
[10:43] <kwwii> it is official
[10:43] <troy_s> what is the more?
[10:43] <troy_s> did sab pass you ub?
[10:43] <troy_s> or is he still banging away with cliff?
[10:44] <kwwii> no idea
[10:45] <kwwii> honestly, I signed a contract but I am not sure what exactly my job will be other than kubuntu
[10:45] <kwwii> at least the is the one definte thing in the contract
[10:45] <kwwii> and this time it is not a short term contract
[10:45] <kwwii> I'll know more when I talk to him next week
[10:46] <kwwii> in oslo
[10:46] <troy_s> Good stuff.
[10:46] <troy_s> How long did you get your contract for?
[10:47] <kwwii> till the end of this year
[10:47] <kwwii> of course, that does not mean that they cannot end it earlier
[10:47] <troy_s> Oh I thought you were going to say indefinitely.
[10:47] <troy_s> Too bad.
[10:47] <kwwii> hehe
[10:47] <kwwii> nobody gets an indefinite contract
[10:47] <troy_s> Oh well, I guess it is better than nothing when you need a gig.
[10:47] <kwwii> at least from what I have heard
[10:47] <kwwii> yepp
[10:47] <kwwii> I am happy with it
[10:48] <troy_s> How many hours per week?  Full time?
[10:48] <kwwii> yepp
[10:48] <troy_s> Well that's good.
[10:48] <kwwii> and they did ask me if I will do ubuntu stuff too
[10:48] <troy_s> Still need a bloody design pattern.
[10:48] <kwwii> but i think that comes down to my experienc in print graphics and making the usplash stuff
[10:48] <kwwii> yepp
[10:48] <troy_s> It seems everyone is incapable of delivering such a device.
[10:49] <kwwii> there is still a lot to work out, and my contract means little in the longer term of things
[10:49] <kwwii> well, I wrote the bootsplash (the first splash stuff) so I have a bit of experience working on lowcolor graphics
[10:49] <kwwii> probably more than most
[10:50] <troy_s> ???
[10:50] <alefteris> anyone knows what is the font used for the "local community team" text at this image https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/Logo?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu_uk_logo_v5.png ??
[10:50] <troy_s> Lost me on that statement.
[10:50] <troy_s> You know about the font search engine alefteris ?
[10:50] <troy_s> oh that's an easy one
[10:50] <alefteris> no
[10:50] <troy_s> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-title
[10:50] <troy_s> it is a god awful ugly font in terms of mechanics however
[10:51] <troy_s> you will manually need to adjust the spacing for example.
[10:51] <alefteris> it does seem to be the ubuntu font, the "m" is completely different
[10:51] <alefteris> among others
[10:51] <troy_s> erm
[10:51] <troy_s> i stand corrected
[10:51] <troy_s> yes the tails indicate
[10:51] <troy_s> that it is modata i believe
[10:51] <troy_s> let me just check that for you
[10:53] <troy_s> alefteris: Try mgOpen Modata
[10:53] <troy_s> Ok?
[10:54] <alefteris> itsnt not modata, it does have rounded edges.. :(
[10:54] <alefteris> does not have
[10:54] <troy_s> erm.
[10:55] <kwwii> troy_s: I meant that I learned how to do linux artwork when it was still pixel-pushing and low-color doesn't scare me
[10:55] <troy_s> are you talking about the a?
[10:56] <troy_s> kwwii sadly I remember developing work when you had to reference pixels in a hex lookup table.
[10:56] <troy_s> _very_ sad.
[10:56] <troy_s> alefteris: the 'a'?
[10:56] <alefteris> troy_s, all chars
[10:56] <kwwii> troy_s: yepp, that is what doing the usplash is all about unfortunately
[10:56] <troy_s> currently?
[10:57] <kwwii> note that the bootsplash (my stuff not the usplash) has been jpeg stuff form the beginning
[10:57] <troy_s> kwwii, sorry... currently?  it was an import as of the last version.
[10:57] <troy_s> usplash is a simple compile step, or rather was.
[10:57] <kwwii> yeah, well, not the kubuntu version :-)
[10:57] <troy_s> lord
[10:57] <kwwii> no, it is still limited colors
[10:57] <troy_s> yes
[10:57] <kwwii> although it is more than 16 (thanks be to god)
[10:57] <troy_s> i meant lookup table.  i can't think of anything that still uses a lookup table.
[10:58] <troy_s> its 8bpp palettized now isn't it?
[10:58] <kwwii> sure, if it is a color mapped file it is a look up table
[10:58] <troy_s> so you at least have exposure to the true colour spectrum
[10:58] <troy_s> even if it is somewhat limited ;)
[10:58] <kwwii> you just get to determine the colors in the table
[10:58] <kwwii> exactly
[10:58] <troy_s> yes.  stair interpolations take care of that better than any alg.
[10:58] <kwwii> yepp
[10:58] <troy_s> probably write one quickly using bash or msl.
[10:59] <kwwii> although you cannot simply do anything you want
[10:59] <troy_s> (that imagemagick markup language)
[10:59] <kwwii> so you have to think about the implementation when creating the design
[10:59] <troy_s> that is probably a good thing
[10:59] <kwwii> amazing, that
[10:59] <kwwii> :p
[10:59] <troy_s> you always should.
[10:59] <troy_s> ;)
[10:59] <kwwii> sure, but most "artists" do not realize taht
[10:59] <kwwii> that
[10:59] <troy_s> it does a bunch of good stuff though thanks to seveas like the animation etc.
[11:00] <troy_s> i don't know... they teach you medium training in art school 00001, unless you mean someone without training.
[11:00] <kwwii> yeah, did some amazing stuff, making it finally worthwhile to worry about the design
[11:00] <troy_s> haven't looked into usplash too much of late though.
[11:00] <kwwii> well, almost all linux artist have no training
[11:00] <troy_s> as right now
[11:00] <kwwii> it is the same as before
[11:00] <troy_s> on my lovely 64bit box
[11:01] <troy_s> we have exactly 16 colours of grey
[11:01] <troy_s> or less
[11:01] <troy_s> it is still pooched
[11:01] <troy_s> ?
[11:01] <troy_s> wtf is an x60?
[11:01] <troy_s> you mean amd64 (EMT64)?
[11:01] <kwwii> thinkpad x60
[11:01] <troy_s> oh cool
[11:01] <troy_s> !
[11:01] <troy_s> great little unit
[11:01] <kwwii> tiny as hell
[11:01] <troy_s> what chip is in it though?
[11:01] <kwwii> very light
[11:01] <kwwii> core duo
[11:01] <troy_s> erk
[11:01] <troy_s> mod 1 or 2?
[11:02] <kwwii> 80bg hard drive
[11:02] <kwwii> 2
[11:02] <troy_s> u know?
[11:02] <kwwii> works perfectly with linux
[11:02] <troy_s> well at least that is an upside... the nicest thing about that unit is that it is very free software friendly.
[11:02] <troy_s> what made you decide to get one?
[11:02] <kwwii> having only macs made me want to get one
[11:02] <kwwii> it is the perfect mobile test machine for me
[11:03] <kwwii> really light and small
[11:03] <troy_s> alefteris: http://www.creativepro.com/eservices/fontsearch
[11:03] <troy_s> what did it cost you?
[11:03] <troy_s> i have been toying with getting a Turion X2
[11:03] <kwwii> 1700 euros
[11:03] <troy_s> they are deadly cheap at the moment.
[11:03] <troy_s> AGGggahhhhahhhahhhhhhhahhhheeeeehhhhh
[11:03] <kwwii> with the docking station
[11:03] <troy_s> *thud*
[11:03] <troy_s> that is just stuipd
[11:03] <troy_s> stupid
[11:04] <troy_s> in terms of markup
[11:04] <kwwii> my mac cost much more than that
[11:04] <troy_s> that is like... almost
[11:04] <troy_s> 3400
[11:04] <kwwii> dude, in europe computers cost muchmore
[11:04] <troy_s> yeah apparently!
[11:04] <kwwii> honestly
[11:04] <troy_s> what a rip off
[11:04] <troy_s> can't you buy online and ship?
[11:04] <troy_s> like from ncix.com or something?
[11:04] <kwwii> my mac cost 2100
[11:04] <kwwii> nope
[11:04] <kwwii> I would have to pay taxes when it comes through the mail
[11:04] <troy_s> wow... that is a lot of money for a piece of junk that is obsolete in a year.
[11:04] <troy_s> erk
[11:04] <kwwii> true
[11:05] <troy_s> that is bloody bonkers.
[11:05] <troy_s> BONKERS
[11:05] <kwwii> but in europe everything costs more
[11:05] <troy_s> yes i am familiar with that...
[11:05] <kwwii> a macbook costs 1500
[11:05] <troy_s> a trip to england for this old canadian kid is deadly
[11:05] <alefteris> troy_s, thanks but that search engine does help a lot when you have no idea that the font name is..
[11:05] <troy_s> alefteris -- there are some there that
[11:05] <troy_s> do it by 'serif' 'sans' etc.
[11:05] <troy_s> and show you progressive disclosure
[11:06] <kwwii> the funny thing is that in america people in this business earn more than here
[11:06] <kwwii> so where are they throwing their money away?
[11:06] <troy_s> what business?
[11:06] <kwwii> although I am now a registered artist
[11:06] <kwwii> IT
[11:06] <troy_s> what do you mean by registered?
[11:06] <troy_s> that sounds...
[11:06] <troy_s> ...
[11:06] <troy_s> worrysome
[11:07] <kwwii> so with that, I only pay a few hundred euros for my insurances (all the different one in europe)
[11:07] <kwwii> it means that I get support from the german government
[11:07] <kwwii> the pay 90% of my insurance
[11:07] <troy_s> ah
[11:08] <troy_s> insurance on what?  home and car?
[11:08] <kwwii> here you have social insurance (wellfare, unemployment), health insurance, and one or two others
[11:09] <kwwii> nothing to do with cars or home
[11:09] <kwwii> that is extra
[11:09] <troy_s> alefteris: try this one:
[11:09] <troy_s> http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/
[11:09] <kwwii> and the taxes will kill you
[11:09] <kwwii> try paying 59% taxes
[11:09] <kwwii> but then again, if I am unemployed I get a lot of money
[11:10] <troy_s> uh
[11:10] <troy_s> i pay 54% each and every day
[11:10] <kwwii> and I got a lot of money to start my own company
[11:10] <troy_s> max bracket here in canada
[11:10] <kwwii> 1.7x what I earned before
[11:10] <troy_s> so i feel your pain :)
[11:10] <kwwii> yeah, that is the highest tax bracket too
[11:11] <troy_s> so do you have any plans for kub?
[11:11] <kwwii> but since canonical is based outside of the EU, 19 percent falls away
[11:11] <kwwii> yepp, we are going to push the edgy stuff further
[11:12] <troy_s> Well good... you have Riddell on your side which makes matters easier.
[11:12] <kwwii> actually, this time we have a few really good people to help
[11:12] <kwwii> that is true
[11:12] <troy_s> Good to hear.
[11:12] <kwwii> yepp
[11:13] <troy_s> The basic art team grew massively over edg
[11:13] <kwwii> I guess I will be helping with ubuntu in some ways as well
[11:13] <troy_s> I think we are at 204 members now... from 17 at the beginning.
[11:13] <troy_s> There is no way to help Ubuntu at this juncture...
[11:13] <troy_s> It is either flog away as current
[11:13] <kwwii> there is a big push in the kubuntu team to have one branding strategy for all of *buntu
[11:14] <troy_s> Gee... there is a novel idea.
[11:14] <kwwii> which would be great for all of us
[11:14] <troy_s> ;)
[11:14] <troy_s> Yes.
[11:14] <troy_s> But the politicking might have issues.
[11:14] <kwwii> but we need to create something to convince the higher powers that it is a good plan and worthwhile to attemp
[11:14] <kwwii> t
[11:14] <troy_s> Difficult when it comes to sabdfl.
[11:14] <kwwii> yepp, rgiht
[11:15] <troy_s> The guy is one helluva bright fellow, but at one point he was actually attempting to argue colour theory with me.
[11:15] <troy_s> Which is funny.
[11:15] <troy_s> Just made me chuckle in the end.
[11:16] <troy_s> It is exceptionally unfortunate considering the juncture that technology is at currently.  Vista is due out shortly -- which will certainly highlight the excessive nature of plastic
[11:16] <troy_s> A great chance for the artists to turn their cheek and head in a new direction... instead of playing dog chase cat games.
[11:16] <troy_s> alefteris: did that link help?
[11:16] <msikma> I've shown Vista to many artists
[11:17] <msikma> I've not once met an artist that liked it
[11:17] <troy_s> Well it is ...
[11:17] <troy_s> excessive in many ways.
[11:17] <troy_s> it really is the culmination of too many years heading towards plastic
[11:17] <troy_s> and gloss
[11:17] <msikma> It's ridiculous. Even if you strip it of its pointless transparency and other such effects.
[11:17] <troy_s> hopefully it will develop a reaction -- like every art movement.
[11:17] <msikma> It's the culmination of /Microsoft/ heading towards plastic, though.
[11:17] <troy_s> Plastic is done.
[11:18] <troy_s> Don't get me wrong, it had its time.
[11:18] <troy_s> But like every genre, it passes.
[11:18] <msikma> They and their hestitatingly, almost paranoid way of designing interfaces that "convey the nature of their system".
[11:18] <troy_s> (not to mention when you dress up a bloody operating system like a cross between a hooker and tammy faye baker)
[11:19] <troy_s> Probably agree with you.
[11:19] <troy_s> Although even the well lauded Apple inc has drifted far away from reality.
[11:19] <msikma> I strongly believe that this kind of interfaces still will be made for a while to come, but Vista certainly isn't helping the genre. :)
[11:19] <troy_s> Their notions of simplicity and such have given way to peddling gadgetry interfaces.
[11:20] <troy_s> msikma: Have you seen the itunes shift/.
[11:20] <msikma> They have been toning down the excessiveness of their interface the past years, though.
[11:20] <msikma> The new iTunes looks terrible.
[11:20] <troy_s> (as much as I despise the company, they do have a solid design team that tracks contemporary movement well)
[11:20] <troy_s> msikma -- watch their entire interface shift to it.
[11:21] <msikma> I don't get the new iTunes interface.
[11:21] <troy_s> are you speaking of the matte approach?
[11:21] <msikma> It's more flat, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the system as much, and it just generally seems to miss what I presumed were Apple design targets.
[11:22] <troy_s> msikma -- apple has designers with education
[11:22] <troy_s> it is mandatory to work there
[11:22] <kwwii> oh, I think it shows a new direction for apple
[11:22] <troy_s> i can assure you that they are all participants in design meetings.
[11:22] <msikma> Your point being?
[11:22] <kwwii> they test the waters first
[11:22] <troy_s> meaning that they too are seeing gloss done.
[11:22] <kwwii> and then they move
[11:22] <troy_s> and, in an attempt to stay ahead in the field, they are slowly implementing the new trends into their interfaces.
[11:23] <kwwii> definitely
[11:23] <troy_s> (which unfortunately does nothing for consistency sake across say, itunes, garageband, etc,)
[11:23] <kwwii> I have seen this coming since garage band
[11:23] <TheSheep> hello guys!
[11:23] <troy_s> they probably have their hands handcuffed by the politics
[11:23] <kwwii> they tried different ideas
[11:23] <msikma> I doubt that this trend will last. The iTunes-like interface, that is. This seems like a test, like you say, but I find that it doesn't really add much actual use to the whole. It simply is a less good design, regardless of whether gloss is done or not.
[11:23] <kwwii> and I think the itunes stuff won out
[11:23] <troy_s> msikma -- I will bet you 1000 dollars on it.
[11:23] <kwwii> me too
[11:23] <msikma> The iPhone is very glossy.
[11:24] <troy_s> kwwii -- i think garageband is more attempting to be a niche
[11:24] <troy_s> msikma -- it isn't out yet.
[11:24] <kwwii> although I like the garage band look much better
[11:24] <alefteris> troy_s, this search engine did the trick :) it was Arial Rounded MT Bold
[11:24] <kwwii> troy_s: agreed
[11:24] <troy_s> msikma -- the iphone is almost the epitome of middle grey
[11:24] <alefteris> troy_s, thanks a lot
[11:24] <msikma> They aren't going to change the design around that much anymore. I sincerely doubt they will. That's something /I'm/ willing to bet 1000 USD on.
[11:24] <troy_s> it is a screen
[11:24] <troy_s> and a wheel
[11:24] <troy_s> msikma -- the gloss factor you are seeing in the iphone is largely marketing.  unto itself it is more an exercise in minimalistic design
[11:25] <msikma> All design by Apple is marketing.
[11:25] <troy_s> msikma -- wow.
[11:25] <msikma> Okay, not all.
[11:25] <msikma> But plenty.
[11:25] <troy_s> msikma -- actually, j.ives et all are pretty solid designers when it comes to education and implementation.
[11:25] <troy_s> that said, they are riding in a beast that can't keep up right now.
[11:25] <kwwii> note that the icons shown are of completely diffenent stle
[11:25] <kwwii> style
[11:25] <troy_s> kwwii -- indeed!
[11:26] <msikma> They are excellent designers, but Apple's implementations of any design are centered around marketing. It's marketing that's made Apple such a beloved company.
[11:26] <kwwii> god, my old keyboard died and I hate this one
[11:26] <troy_s> the only legacy of their old regime is that god awful white gloss on the keynote
[11:26] <troy_s> steve jobs the snake oil salesman made them the company they are... performer.  snake oil salesman.  thief.  ;)
[11:26] <troy_s> greets TheSheep... sorry missed your post.
[11:27] <msikma> troy_s: you forgot "much more successful".
[11:27] <kwwii> reminds me of sbdfl in many ways
[11:27] <troy_s> msikma -- without the performance
[11:27] <troy_s> erm kwwii
[11:27] <troy_s> without the performance
[11:27] <msikma> I don't see why Jobs would care about that.
[11:27] <troy_s> the most critical component
[11:27] <troy_s> performance being 'acting'
[11:27] <TheSheep> some are to made to lead and some are made to follow
[11:27] <kwwii> well, give him a bit of time and experience
[11:27] <kwwii> and someone to trust
[11:28] <msikma> Jobs' purpose is to keep his shareholders' kids' mouths fed. He does this by making computers, an operating system, and a bunch of gadgets.
[11:28] <msikma> He does that well.
[11:28] <troy_s> msikma probably agree.  that said, those times for our computing health have passed.
[11:28] <troy_s> apple is a dinosaur
[11:28] <troy_s> computers do too much these days to have our vested interests wound up in a nightmare spiral of OSX/Vista DRM/CRM at low levels.
[11:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: the basic problem with non-glossy non-plastic designs is: how do you make them look brand new :)
[11:29] <msikma> Therefore I don't see your point when you say that Jobs is a <insert insult here>. It seems like pointless complaining about him, while it really isn't his greatest dream to make the computer systems that /we/ desire.
[11:29] <troy_s> TheSheep... I don't know if it is critical to make things brand new
[11:29] <troy_s> that again, is a learned expectation based on contemporary design.
[11:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: it is for apple and ms
[11:29] <troy_s> TheSheep -- exactly.  Dinosaurs.
[11:30] <msikma> troy_s: do you see Ubuntu as a competitor in the Linux market, or as a competitor in the operating system market?
[11:30] <TheSheep> personally I think that user interface will slowly disappear completely in a few years -- I mean the visuals
[11:30] <troy_s> TheSheep -- to draw an analogy, when rustic hardwood floors took off, it was a 'strange' thought that people would pay for an object purposefully abused with a hammer and nail :)
[11:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: probably agree with you.
[11:30] <troy_s> msikma: Given time, Ubuntu is the first primitive step away from company centric operating systems to democratic and free society based operating systems.
[11:31] <troy_s> It isn't the end all.
[11:31] <troy_s> nor perfect
[11:31] <msikma> And what I'm really asking you here is what you see as an "operating system", and what additional attributes you believe a "Linux operating system" has.
[11:31] <troy_s> but certainly a _step_ in the proper direction.
[11:31] <troy_s> Linux is irrelevant
[11:31] <troy_s> GNU is probably more relevant.
[11:31] <TheSheep> means to the goal
[11:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Agreed.
[11:31] <msikma> I agree with you on the fact that Linux is irrelevant, but I also believe that GNU is (less so) irrelevant.
[11:32] <troy_s> kwwii: I think he will either need to hire a spokesperson (unlikely) or spend some time learning how to do it slightly more effectively.
[11:32] <TheSheep> some day kids will learn about this at school and won't believe
[11:32] <troy_s> GNU is the practical approach to a world that isn't utopian (read people who would wage war via patents and such)
[11:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Completely 100% on the money
[11:32] <troy_s> "You used to use operating systems controlled by companies?"
[11:32] <troy_s> Very much along the same lines as comparing democracy in its infancy
[11:33] <msikma> Anyway, I still firmly believe that, borrowing your terminology for a minute, in order for Ubuntu to succeed, it will have to become one of those dinosaurs.
[11:33] <troy_s> When other's didn't care etc.
[11:33] <TheSheep> "WHat do you mean you coudn't use without paying? Paying for what?"
[11:33] <troy_s> By dinosaur I mean 'too old, too slow, too passee'
[11:33] <troy_s> not 'big'
[11:33] <troy_s> ubuntu is already 'big'
[11:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: have you seen Plan9? :)
[11:33] <alefteris> I cant rename layers in inkscape, is it a known bug?
[11:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not unless you mean Ed Wood's work :)
[11:33] <msikma> I thought you meant "big, strong, able to swallow up smaller beasts, seen by many due to their size".
[11:33] <troy_s> alefteris: I believe so
[11:34] <troy_s> alefteris: Try this -- change the name in the layer creation toolbox when it comes up.
[11:34] <troy_s> alefteris: Let me try my compile i made today
[11:34] <troy_s> msikma:  No, I mean well on the way to extinction
[11:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's an old thing, a different approach to ui architecture. looks ugly, as there are no shiny buttons and stuff -- actually there are almost no ui elements
[11:34] <troy_s> msikma: Ubuntu is the current 'sexy beast' that all the hip crowd (aside from the existing in distro land crowd) is looking to.
[11:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: With you 100%
[11:35] <msikma> I don't get it, troy. You say that Microsoft and Apple are "too slow, too old", etc., but in reality, Ubuntu is currently nothing compared to them. Obviously, it's unfair to label them as such. I think that you shouldn't say that until you've been able to prove that your fancy new operating system is the right way.
[11:35] <msikma> That's something personal.
[11:35] <troy_s> msikma:  you are kidding right?
[11:35] <msikma> I'm definitely not kidding.
[11:35] <troy_s> msikma: Look how far Ubuntu has come in less than 3 - 4 years.
[11:35] <troy_s> msikma: Look at the mainstream media press.  Look at the apple converts (the die hards I might add)
[11:35] <troy_s> look at the reaction to DRM
[11:35] <troy_s> etc.
[11:36] <troy_s> As with all revolutions, they take time to hit critical mass.
[11:36] <msikma> That doesn't mean I believe it isn't going to hit a snag by the time the really big audience, those who think that Windows equals their computer, will begin to notice it. There are prerequisites before that will happen.
[11:36] <TheSheep> look at the number of ubuntu forks :)
[11:36] <troy_s> msikma -- it is coming.
[11:36] <troy_s> msikma -- it has a long way to go, but again, the progress is almost at light speed.
[11:37] <msikma> With design and marketing like this (geez, just look at the website), I can't see it coming.
[11:37] <troy_s> msikma -- that i would probably agree with on some level.
[11:37] <TheSheep> msikma: what's wrong with the website?
[11:37] <msikma> Really, Ubuntu is an incredible system that's capable of doing anything really well, but there is a huge, huge marketing problem with it.
[11:37] <troy_s> A) no design strategy -- but that is problematic in association with the needs and goals of free software.
[11:37] <msikma> It currently has an extremely successful viral marketing campaign going, but that's it.
[11:37] <troy_s> A.1) Perhaps a larger design strategy needs to be addressed within all of FOSS
[11:37] <msikma> TheSheep: where to start, where to start...
[11:38] <troy_s> msikma -- it has more than that.
[11:38] <troy_s> msikma -- Remember before novell -- sab was in touch with Dell, Sun, etc.
[11:38] <troy_s> the tides are changing.
[11:38] <troy_s> TheSheep: I think the webpage is symptomatic of the ever prevalent problem within the FOSS 'art' community...
[11:38] <TheSheep> uh, a flyer design
[11:39] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not enough planning before implementation :)
[11:39] <kwwii> troy_s: I think he realized the problems and want to give it to someone who knows more, only that is a very hard thing because in the linux world this has not existed until now
[11:39] <kwwii> I mean, how much does apple pay for all of this
[11:39] <kwwii> more than he wants to pay
[11:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: I can see how badly that moinmoin is hacked
[11:39] <troy_s> kwwii: Agreed.  But it isn't just pay.
[11:39] <kwwii> sure
[11:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: I did some development with moinmoin, you see
[11:39] <msikma> troy_s: how about a non-designer who made the site design who shouldn't have had to make it in the first place
[11:39] <troy_s> kwwii:  Primarily, it is finding the components of a team that is building something that has no track record
[11:39] <kwwii> but unless you are in the know, it comes down to that
[11:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: they even use some of my icons ;)
[11:39] <troy_s> no history
[11:40] <troy_s> it is all completely ... fresh ground.
[11:40] <kwwii> ture
[11:40] <kwwii> true
[11:40] <msikma> Hmm.
[11:40] <kwwii> damn keyboard
[11:40] <troy_s> TheSheep -- speaking of icons... sketches?
[11:40] <msikma> I once read a funny quote
[11:40] <msikma> "Design is a smiling cat with a tie."
[11:40] <troy_s> kwwii -- when people say 'that isn't how it is done' in terms of this sort of project, they should probably sit down and shut up.  NONE of us know how this should work.
[11:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: hah! sorry, didn't have much time
[11:40] <troy_s> etc.
[11:40] <msikma> It's this that Ubuntu currently misses.
[11:40] <troy_s> TheSheep -- stinker.
[11:41] <troy_s> msikma -- but giving up wont solve the problem
[11:41] <troy_s> we really need to agree that our common ground is to make things better
[11:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: hey, I've got some real work to do too
[11:41] <msikma> I admire your ability to keep on going, troy_s. I certainly would have given up long ago if I had to face the problems that you face in Ubuntu artwork production.
[11:41] <troy_s> and that we all need to very much value the people who bother to get involved... figure out a way to work together in a manner that has yet to be utilized in FOSS etc...
[11:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: Still a stinker.
[11:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: sure
[11:41] <troy_s> msikma: I have none.
[11:42] <troy_s> msikma: I certainly have very well known disagreements with how the art and design of ubuntu should proceed, but again, that is just bikeshedding for the large part.
[11:42] <msikma> I think that, due to others slowing you down, you can't get as much as 1% done of what you'd /like/ to get done.
[11:42] <troy_s> Not my role nor my goal.
[11:42] <troy_s> we have some talented folks involved with ubuntu artwork...
[11:42] <troy_s> finding a way to utilize and harness their abilities is a trick.
[11:43] <msikma> If it's not your goal to get done what you want to get done, then what is it?
[11:43] <troy_s> especially with the needs and aspirations of sabdfl.
[11:43] <TheSheep> msikma: create situations in which it's also others' goal :)
[11:43] <msikma> sabdfl has aspirations, but he is unable to get a decent community artwork team started, and he does not hire the right people to do contractual work.
[11:43] <troy_s> msikma -- Personally?  I want to see an environment that reflects what Ubuntu is -- it is a foray into the future in terms of technology.  We should be more liberal with our approach in terms of art and design.  NOT follow the 'existing' monsters.
[11:44] <msikma> So obviously other people will need to jump in to fulfill sabdfl's ambitions.
[11:44] <kwwii> troy_s: I think that is the sign of someone trying to solve problem he/she does not really understand
[11:44] <troy_s> I think ultimately, sabdfl is insecure.  It is the nature of a geek background I think ;_
[11:44] <troy_s> kwwii -- yes.
[11:44] <troy_s> I have a great quotation from a book... let me find it
[11:44] <troy_s> roughly
[11:45] <kwwii> you always have great quotes :-)
[11:45] <troy_s> "Applying techniques that have worked before with success to something that is different."
[11:45] <troy_s> paraphrased
[11:45] <kwwii> yepp
[11:45] <kwwii> well, we will see what the future holds
[11:45] <troy_s> not to sound wholly utopian and fairy like, but we really need to collaborate on levels that have yet to be seen
[11:45] <kwwii> totally true
[11:45] <troy_s> and push the envelope
[11:45] <troy_s> Have the room for people to fail, and be successful in failing... if that makes any sense from a zen standpoint ;)
[11:46] <kwwii> I think that having one branding strategy for everything would simplifiy the matter
[11:46] <coz_> absolutely guys sorry ai am supproting on other channels and will be more concentrated here in a moment pLEASE don't leave :)
[11:46] <troy_s> kwwii -- when you speak branding...
[11:46] <msikma> troy_s: getting back to the "design is a smiling cat with a tie" quote from a second ago. Don't you think that Ubuntu has even a snowball's chance in hell of becoming a widely used operating system if it misses this factor?
[11:46] <troy_s> what are you speaking of in terms of targets?
[11:46] <TheSheep> branding is in the way of good design :(
[11:46] <troy_s> msikma -- no
[11:47] <troy_s> msikma -- it has the snowballs chance to get it into the eyes, but unless we all act fast, it could very well be an opportunity missed.
[11:47] <kwwii> troy_s: I mean that we need a total branding strategy for all of *buntu with slight modifications  for every variant
[11:47] <troy_s> TheSheep: Don't be too knee jerk -- kwwii knows what he is talking about.
[11:47] <kwwii> no reason to recreate the wheel for everything
[11:47] <troy_s> kwwii -- Agree 100%... it would be lovely to gather a motif and agree upon it.
[11:47] <kwwii> exactly
[11:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: sorry, I've just seen so many projects defated with branding
[11:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: the word itself hurts :)
[11:48] <msikma> Then why have I seen so incredibly and almost ridiculously few attempts by Ubuntu contributors to attempt to attain such a factor? It's like many people don't even know it exists. Maybe that is in the nature of a geek.
[11:48] <troy_s> TheSheep -- if I based my life on the failures of others, I certainly would have gotten no where.
[11:48] <kwwii> but until now there has been too much political disagreement/desktop-religion involved
[11:48] <TheSheep> troy_s: I base it on mine
[11:48] <coz_> msikma, sorry could you ecplain that I wasn't paining attention
[11:48] <troy_s> msikma -- One part training.  One part knowledge.  One part thought.  Three parts execution.
[11:48] <coz_> msikma, this thing about ubuntu contributors/
[11:48] <troy_s> kwwii Another very astute point.
[11:48] <troy_s> The politics in FOSS are depressing.
[11:48] <kwwii> if we could all get together and works things out as one team, and pick the best resolution we would get a lot further, step by step than ever before
[11:49] <troy_s> kwwii -- arguably with a solid guess of a blueprint in place before we start.
[11:49] <kwwii> yepp, exactly
[11:49] <troy_s> Decide on WHAT mountain to climb before we start moving our arms and legs.
[11:49] <kwwii> perhaps now that things are so disparate there is a real chance of that
[11:49] <coz_> well in my opinion if the art team were recognized as abolutely necessary
[11:49] <troy_s> Which is the unfortunate part of Edgy -- we really made terrific gains in terms of learning Launchpad etc.
[11:49] <troy_s> All overlooked by sabdfl.
[11:49] <coz_> all would be well
[11:50] <kwwii> I mean, the only way from where we are now is up
[11:50] <troy_s> coz_  That isn't something that will just be bestowed
[11:50] <troy_s> coz_  The proof is in the pooding so to speak :)
[11:50] <coz_> troy_s, i know but that is just a a lack on shuttleworths abilities
[11:50] <TheSheep> kwwii: I see current contributors as a bunch of ants running around and fixing this and that -- but it's really hard to find what is actually needed at the moment and how it is expected to be done
[11:50] <msikma> coz_: I was mentioning how very, very few Ubuntu contributors, whether artwork-related or code-related, have any knowledge of the power of marketing and its effect on a system's appeal to the major audience.
[11:50] <kwwii> it is  recognized as necesarry
[11:50] <troy_s> kwwii -- that assumes that we don't have a good deal of infrastructure in place.
[11:50] <troy_s> kwwii -- which we do
[11:50] <coz_> msikma,  i agree
[11:50] <troy_s> kwwii -- Daniel has the automated artwork pacaking
[11:50] <troy_s> for example
[11:50] <kwwii> that is why there are so many problems from so many people how know so little
[11:51] <troy_s> kwwii -- I dare say that our 'artists' don't spend enough time sharing their knowledge
[11:51] <coz_> kwwii, who do you work for?
[11:51] <kwwii> yeah, I worked a bit on that with daniel as well
[11:51] <msikma> coz_: and it seems that this means there are very few people around who actually have had something to do with graphic design, as you can hardly be a graphic designer and not know at least the basics of marketing.
[11:51] <kwwii> coz_: I work for canonical as of next monday
[11:51] <troy_s> kwwii -- one of the points that he totally missed with Frank -- frank initiated a _lot_ of infrastructure... only to get burned.
[11:52] <coz_> kwwii, well suggest to them that the team neesa to be hired there
[11:52] <coz_> needs
[11:52] <kwwii> troy_s: I warned frank about all of this
[11:52] <troy_s> TheSheep -- you are spot on with ants.
[11:52] <troy_s> kwwii -- the infrastructure is more important than the output...
[11:52] <troy_s> unfortunately 99% of the people only see output.
[11:52] <kwwii> I told him how I thought this would all work out, and it happened exactly as I saw it
[11:53] <kwwii> unfortunately
[11:53] <troy_s> kwwii -- its a longer term approach
[11:53] <troy_s> short term doesn't cut it.
[11:53] <kwwii> yepp, and everyone has to be willing to bend
[11:53] <coz_> kwwii, no
[11:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: The ants need to prove to the hivemaster that they are capable of fixing things the way he wants it... from there we might have a hope.
[11:53] <msikma> I really need to make it my priority to make a new website design for Ubuntu.com. It's highly visible. Nobody else is doing it or even thinking about it. I can hardly believe that with the userbase Ubuntu has, nobody has yet risen his hand and said "sir, this is not the right way".
[11:53] <kwwii> it is not a desktop specific thing in the end
[11:53] <troy_s> kwwii -- If his sole goal is to put stuff in place, head over to gnome-look
[11:53] <coz_> kwwii, you need to bend because you have a position that could be threatened with  any other attitude
[11:53] <coz_>  kwwii  not meant to be a put down by the way
[11:54] <msikma> I really think that the front page of the site embodies some of the bad things about the current state of Ubuntu artwork.
[11:54] <troy_s> kwwii -- if he wants to challenge the big boys, he needs to create a creative environment where people are going to try new things.
[11:54] <kwwii> it is not about creating the best solution for what has existed until now, but to create something better
[11:54] <kwwii> xactly
[11:54] <troy_s> kwwii bingo
[11:54] <troy_s> kwwii This isn't about the status quo f*ck the status quo
[11:54] <msikma> The placement of elements, the text, the strange and awkward navigation, the misuse of the logo typeface...
[11:54] <kwwii> coz_: I disagree
[11:54] <coz_> better in what frame of reference
[11:54] <coz_> kwwii,  I know you do
[11:55] <troy_s> kwwii Harness what we have and create something new.  Something that the Apple's and the Microsoft's will chase.
[11:55] <troy_s> And they DO chase -- (look at wiki's, webservers, virtual workspaces, etc.)
[11:55] <kwwii> but work outside the boungs
[11:55] <troy_s> It is just that in terms of design and art,
[11:55] <kwwii> bouds
[11:55] <kwwii> ahhh
[11:55] <kwwii> bounds
[11:55] <coz_> bounds
[11:55] <kwwii> yeah
[11:55] <coz_> lol
[11:55] <troy_s> the FOSS community is _horrible_ at progressive design.
[11:56] <coz_> troy_s, excuse my ingornace FOSS?
[11:56] <msikma> It almost seems like it's against its nature, troy_s.
[11:56] <kwwii> move ahead and not in paralell
[11:56] <kwwii> erm spelling
[11:56] <msikma> Free and Open Source Software.
[11:56] <coz_> oh
[11:56] <troy_s> msikma -- some say that... but the reality is that FOSS _works_ in terms of coding
[11:56] <kwwii> I give up with this keyboard
[11:56] <troy_s> it produces some TIGHT code
[11:56] <coz_> what does foss have to do with art?
[11:56] <troy_s> with CLEAN implementation.
[11:56] <troy_s> et.c
[11:56] <msikma> I agree.
[11:56] <troy_s> Design wise it is bound up in ego, bikeshedding, and power tripping.
[11:56] <troy_s> Art and design
[11:57] <troy_s> not to mention a good share of opportunists who need money and try to make something for their own personal gains.
[11:57] <troy_s> coz_ perhaps you need to think that question through.
[11:57] <coz_> troy_s, well i see no connection
[11:57] <TheSheep> I think there is a need for Graphics Design Guidelines, similar to HIG
[11:57] <troy_s> TheSheep: Process...
[11:57] <msikma> coz_: FOSS is nice, but if anyone wants FOSS to appeal to a major audience, then nice code isn't gonna cut it.
[11:57] <troy_s> J.Ives best quote was something like "More than what we produced at Apple I will remember the process."
[11:57] <troy_s> Process is key.
[11:58] <coz_> msikma, right I understand that part
[11:58] <msikma> Joe Next Door doesn't care about well-commented code.
[11:58] <troy_s> It isn't just about sitting down and pushing fricking pixels.
[11:58] <TheSheep> troy_s: unless you're a one-man factory
[11:58] <msikma> Although that would be a nice /start/, troy_s.
[11:58] <troy_s> msikma -- and they don't care about the sweat and effort that went into the design process for say, the iPod.
[11:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: Which, when we get to the scaling fallacy, simply doesn't work for the scope of a project like say, Ubuntu
[11:58] <troy_s> You need help
[11:58] <troy_s> You need support,
[11:59] <troy_s> We need collaboration and respect
[11:59] <coz_> troy_s, I dont' eqate desing for the iPod an artist develpment
[11:59] <TheSheep> you will get any help if you only can communicate what you need
[11:59] <msikma> Oh, don't even start. If you even begin to talk about something like that, some might call you a proprietary software troll. It's gotten to the point where you don't even know whether the next random FOSS enthusiast will want to even talk to you.
[11:59] <troy_s> msikma -- why push pixels until you know that those pixels will hit a target?
[11:59] <kwwii> coz_: remeber when said that this conversation took place later in the evening, european time?
[11:59] <kwwii> :-)
[11:59] <coz_> kwwii,  lol yeah! :)
[11:59] <coz_> talking at last !
[11:59] <kwwii> well, +1 for me
[11:59] <kwwii> :p
[12:00] <coz_> :)
[12:00] <troy_s> msikma -- I have a fundamental vison and belief that our computing world is in dire straights thanks to MS and Apple.  I watched it grow from the Apple ] [ into something far ... bigger.
[12:00] <msikma> When I first joined up here, I was almost ready to take off right away because after I said that I was working as ActionScript programmer, you started lecturing me about how it's proprietary and unusable on your 64-bit platform. That's actually the reason why I initially acted bitter towards you until we resolved things privately.
[12:00] <troy_s> And I _do_ believe that we need to step up and be vocal about those problems.
[12:01] <troy_s> msikma -- Yes... I was there.  Ultimately, though, the success to which someone like Adobe banks Flash upon is based on a tool that was developed as an OPEN means of communication -- the browser.
[12:01] <coz_> admitedly I have come in in the middle fo this conversation and I ma a bit conrfused here
[12:01] <coz_> I am an artist make not mistake
[12:02] <troy_s> It is the subtle attempt to steer the fundamental goal of the 'web' information away from what it was _designed_ for into a medium to make money selling development tools.
[12:02] <coz_> and i DO NOT want a prgrammer involved in decision making for anything that deal sith art
[12:02] <coz_> inlcudsing shuttleworth
[12:02] <troy_s> coz_ If that programmer happens to be someone interested in mathmatics/theory/science, like say, leonardo da vinci, I welcome them.
[12:02] <coz_> excuse my tying
[12:02] <coz_> typing
[12:02] <TheSheep> coz_: you need programmers involved, or your design will be impossible
[12:02] <kwwii> let's alll forget what has happened until now, and work on something new and better
[12:02] <troy_s> Futher coz_, who do you think is going to design those bloody design implementations?
[12:03] <TheSheep> coz_: you also need usability experts, or your design will be unusable
[12:03] <msikma> That's beside the point, troy_s. The point is that I and a whole lot of other people have certain expectations of the Linux crowd, and when you told me those things when I joined up, you confirmed those expectations. They aren't good expectations.
[12:03] <troy_s> kwwii -- I think we need to keep building it...
[12:03] <coz_> TheSheep, I need programmers to make the code artists take over from there
[12:03] <TheSheep> coz_: you can't split it
[12:03] <kwwii> I for onne am all for moving forward
[12:03] <TheSheep> coz_: you need to work together
[12:03] <troy_s> coz_  You won't get that without realizing that we are _all_ on the same team.
[12:03] <kwwii> msikma: what is "the linux crowd"
[12:03] <msikma> And that is one of the problems with the Linux community. A really big one. The inability to just keep one's mouth shut at some point and allow people to begin accepting Linux for what it is, and not because other operating systems are "evil" or "wrong" or even "anti-social".
[12:03] <troy_s> msikma: Fres Software is a little bigger than linux.
[12:04] <coz_> TheSheep, yes I can i will not presume that i am capable of telling a prgrammer how to code and i will NOT alow programmer to tell me how what is apropriate for the design
[12:04] <kwwii> the gnome peeps or the xubuntu peeps or kubuntu?
[12:04] <troy_s> coz_  You dont' think that just about anyone has some element of a good idea regarding art and design?
[12:04] <troy_s> Wouldn't that be rather like suggesting that someone who say, illustrates for a living has no clue as to what they might want in terms of a software tool?
[12:04] <coz_> troy_s, calaboration is at the heart of this yet but final dexisions of art NEVER makde by a programmer
[12:05] <msikma> troy_s: the trillions of dollars made every year with HR systems alone is made partially thanks to Linux, and partially also thanks to free software, but nobody knows or cares. Linux is a fact. Free software is a curiosity. And the reason? Marketing.
[12:05] <kwwii> the *buntu stuff needs to move forward, no matter what
[12:05] <msikma> *nobody knows or cares about the latter.
[12:05] <troy_s> msikma -- regarding the bigger picture -- it is changing rapidly too.
[12:05] <kwwii> msikma: we can change that if we try
[12:05] <msikma> You mean regarding HR systems, for example?
[12:05] <troy_s> kwwii Yes.
[12:06] <troy_s> kwwii -- but again, it still requires the support in the light of sabdfl.
[12:06] <TheSheep> people actually start installing linux at homes
[12:06] <kwwii> not necessarily
[12:06] <troy_s> kwwii and I think we can all agree that ultimately, that is our biggest strength and biggest difficulty.
[12:06] <msikma> You aren't going to make free software in general more popular than the term "Linux" in the next 30 years in HR systems. (But that was just an example.)
[12:06] <troy_s> TheSheep -- gasp -- some of them do all of their work on a FOSS box.
[12:06] <TheSheep> troy_s: sure, but I mean non-geek people :")
[12:06] <troy_s> msikma -- If you think that anything will be relevant in 30 years, you are probably mistaken.
[12:06] <troy_s> ;)
[12:06] <kwwii> if we make something big enough he cannot/will not disturb it
[12:06] <msikma> The reason is that Linux is one thing, and therefore it can be marketed. Free software is something different that can much less easily be marketed. It doesn't even have a logo.
[12:07] <troy_s> TheSheep -- I know of at least 10 people over 60 that run Ubuntu.
[12:07] <kwwii> but until now, we have never gone so far
[12:07] <troy_s> all non - geeks. :)
[12:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's great
[12:08] <kwwii> I bet that even if we have sommething only halfway decent which reunited the parts he would be totally happy
[12:08] <msikma> Non-geeks over 60 may prove that Ubuntu is usable by people who don't know very much about a computer, but that doesn't prove that its usability is more desirable than that of other systems for people who _do_ know more about computers, troy_s.
[12:08] <coz_> Ok how about listing here , the things that you guys think needs to be done and the appraoch to getting them done
[12:08] <kwwii> as long as we showed a ptah
[12:08] <kwwii> path
[12:08] <coz_> shortly
[12:08] <kwwii> forward
[12:08] <kwwii> anyway
[12:08] <kwwii> time for bed here
[12:08] <coz_> kwwii, night guy
[12:08] <troy_s> nicht kwwii
[12:09] <troy_s> msikma -- it was the point that in many respect, ubuntu is well past suitable for probably 70% of the population
[12:09] <kwwii> see you tomorrow coz_ and troy_s and everyon else
[12:09] <coz_> kwwii, sure sleep well
[12:09] <TheSheep> msikma: the problem with people who thingk they do know a lot about computers is that they in fact only know a lot about windows
[12:10] <msikma> troy_s: personally, I'd want 70% of the population to become more acquainted with computers and actually getting more things done with them than just basic e-mail sending.
[12:10] <troy_s> dare i say a good chunk of the 'common computer users' use is 1) Entertainment 2) Communication (email and im) 3) Browsing internet.
[12:10] <coz_> TheSheep, I have a small business and i do a lot of conerting people over to ubuntu
[12:10] <coz_> converting
[12:10] <troy_s> msikma - agree again.
[12:10] <msikma> TheSheep: untrue. Lots of people who know lots about computers will be able to adapt easily. They don't just "know Windows", they understand computers.
[12:10] <coz_> they love it they deal with well