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nixternalwow, the switching guide for kubuntu is in, let's say, uber nasty condition01:25
mdkenixternal: good job on getting it to build etc01:26
mdkewhat's wrong with it?01:26
mdkeI haven't read all of the Ubuntu one, but it looks rather good01:26
nixternalwell the info there is OK, but there is so much not there01:26
nixternaland none of it ever validated, which is beyond me01:26
mdkedoes it validate now?01:26
nixternaloh ya, validates and builds seperately and with tbh01:26
Admiral_Chicagonixternal: if you want, mail me if you need me to help / how to help01:27
mdkegood job01:27
Admiral_Chicagoi don't know about docbooks/xml but I can try01:27
mdkeI'm exchanging forum PMs with a forum member who is interested in contributing too01:27
nixternalAdmiral_Chicago: it is so easy actually01:27
nixternalbut i will take plain test right about now01:27
nixternalawesome mdke01:27
mdkeand we should get hold of Phil Bull again and give him svn access01:27
nixternalthe more the merrier for sure this time around01:27
mdkehe contributed loads to that guide01:27
nixternalmost definitely01:28
nixternalhe did the entire switching guide iirc01:28
nixternaland he did it fast01:28
mdkecan you catch up with him for me and ask him if he's interested in doing a bit more?01:28
mdkelet's get that baby back on the road01:28
nixternali just recently spoke with him, and if he isn't busy i am sure he will be more than happy01:28
mdkehe applied for the wikiteam yesterday, so he's obviously around01:29
nixternaloh sweet. i will fire him and email now then01:29
nixternalAdmiral_Chicago: ^^ re: wiki team! or are you already on there? mr. want-to-do-it-all :)01:29
=== mdke hugs mpt
=== mpt hugs mdke
nixternalto many short nicks starting with m01:30
=== nixternal group hugs mdke and mpt
mptyay, group hug01:30
nixternalyou guys make my work easy :)01:30
=== mdke hugs back to nixternal
nixternalawesome work on that glossary btw01:30
mptIt's not reeeeeally a glossary01:32
mptIt's not "what does this mean"01:32
mptbut more "Where do I find the equivalent to _____"01:32
mptbut thanks :-)01:32
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mptIs anyone here running Edgy?01:33
mpter, Feisty, I mean01:33
mptFor my next trick, I'll need a screenshot of a vanilla Feisty desktop01:34
mpt(ok, who am I kidding, all Ubuntu desktops are chocolate, but as vanilla as possible)01:34
NewUnit16anyone have any experience with instanbul?01:35
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mptwith the default panel setup, default background, and the help window open01:35
tonyyarussoNewUnit16: A little bit.  I found it less than optimal.01:35
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mdkempt: meh, ok. Reason?01:36
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mptmdke, so I can add lots of numbered circles to it for a "this is how the Ubuntu desktop works" page for the "New to Ubuntu 7.04?" section01:38
nixternaldoesn't the current feisty desktop look the same as the edgy desktop? or has the GNOME side been rocking out artwork?01:38
mptIf it does, that makes life easier, I can do it myself01:38
mptbut I don't know01:38
nixternalif im not mistaken, Herd1 definitely looked the same01:38
mptFor example, is Deskbar included? If so, does it have a panel applet by default? If not, why not? etc01:39
nixternalwhat i normally do with images, is put in <!--placeholders--> and then the last week before freeze create them so they are as close as possible to the finished product01:39
mptI think in this particular case, the risk of a slightly-out-of-date image would be better than the risk of none at all01:40
nixternalvery true01:40
mdkempt: the screenshot program is crashing...01:41
mdkebut certainly, the artwork will change01:41
mptMeanwhile, we really need to hide the contents panel for all our standalone pages01:41
mptbecause they all have only one section01:42
=== mpt dropped a breadcrumb into his keyboard and now his Zs are intermittent
mptalias br=bzr01:43
mptThat's that dealt with ;-)01:43
mdkempt: http://mdke.org/tmp/default.png01:45
mdkeI installed the aptly named "scrot" instead of gnome-screenshot01:45
mptscrot? um ...01:45
mdkegreat name01:46
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=== mpt was too subtle there, obviously
mptOh, wow, I'd forgotten about the Big Red Pimple in the top right corner :-(01:46
mdkeme too01:46
mdkethat is there simply to save Mark from adding it to his panel01:47
mptThe power button on his laptop broke off, perhaps01:47
mptgoodnight mdke :-)01:47
mptand thanks for the screenshot01:48
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LaserJockBurgundavia: you around? Connection problems lately?04:15
tonyyarussoLaserJock: He's not at home, and apparently Alberta's internet is lacking.04:18
BurgundaviaLaserJock: around yes04:19
Burgundaviaconnection problems, intermittant wireless04:19
LaserJockBurgundavia: ah04:22
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nixternalargh, i hate when i make a mistake in the debian/control file and it gets all the way to the end of compiling and building, and then errors out :)04:53
crimsunmust be that silly kate thing.04:53
nixternaldh_install on a file that I removed from the repos04:57
crimsunnvi or vim? ;)04:57
nixternaldidn't hit dd on that line :)04:58
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tonyyarussoBy "doc wiki" and "main wiki" I assume we mean w.u.c and h.u.c respectively?  (reading CC minutes)05:08
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tonyyarussoSuperscript wiki markup?05:21
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coreytWeird default on xchat starting the first time.. had the member list collapsed :) thought I was the only one here.05:24
coreytHello I'm interested in helping write video tutorials for Ubuntu.  Which app combo works best to produce them in a .swf format for Edgy  Looking for user experiences rather than the few lists I came across.05:26
nixternalcoreyt: popey would be the best person to talk to, but i am guessing he is probably asleep at this time (UK i believe)05:30
nixternaltonyyarusso: 5^^th^^ i believe05:31
coreytthanks, and yeah it's really late there.05:31
tonyyarussonixternal: Funny, that's totally what I did.05:31
nixternalit is just one it seems05:32
coreytI've got the  Jan 2007 issue of Linux Journal that talks about various ways to do it.  Just upgraded from Dapper to Edgy and am still redoing things I had done to dapper.05:32
tonyyarussonixternal: ah05:32
nixternalya, i have never had much luck with screencasting personally05:32
coreytFrom what I was able to read it sounds like having a fast machine might be required.05:33
coreytI've been toying around with taking some of the tips I have gathered for everyday tasks on my ubuntutips site and doing them in video and then I saw this project on digg.05:35
coreytOnly problem was it's probably bandwidth intensive :)05:35
coreytAnywho it's late for me here too so I'm gonna hit the sack and look up this popey person in the AM.  Getting iced in at the house as we speak and me and the wife both can work from home.05:37
coreytJust hope she does not want to use my Linux box for VPN.  Her mac gives her trouble sometimes lol.  Seems the Ubuntu VNC client is more compatible than the crap M$ wrote for the mac.05:38
Admiral_Chicagonixternal: not on the wiki team, I'll look it up a tomorrow, a bit tired today. going to bed soon now i think05:40
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nixternalBurgundavia or Madpilot, if you have some time, would it be possible to add freddymartinez9 (aka Admiral_Chicago) to the Wiki Team? he knows his way around the wiki and understands a majority of the tags08:16
Burgundaviajust got an email from him08:16
Burgundaviawill do right now08:16
nixternalcool Burgundavia, didn't know your status as you have been in and out this evening08:17
Burgundaviawireless connections issues and crashing irc clients08:17
nixternalplus if he messes anything up i can handle him personally :)08:17
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nixternali trust him enough though to edit the ubuntu-chicago site08:17
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mdkenixternal: using html is cheating!09:26
mdkenixternal: ah, you changed back, that's better! :)09:28
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nixternalmdke: hehe ya, i cheated, and then said the hell with it and went back to xml :) thanks for the typo fixes as well04:10
nixternalwo0t. Riddell uploaded the kubuntu-docs package, so now hopefully people will bug report some issues instead of waiting until release :)04:11
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coreytHi, I run Ubuntutips.org and was wanting to help as part of the video documentation/how-to team.  I've got a setup that can make and upload videos quickly and I write MOP's/documentation at work as well.07:05
coreytbrb fixing  sandwich07:05
nixternalmmm, sammich07:24
nixternalcoreyt: popey is the person you would want to talk to, and once he gets around he will notice the highlight of his name and say hello im sure :)07:25
popeyahh, just the person07:25
popeyhello coreyt07:25
nixternaltold ya07:25
popeycoreyt: can you write up how you make your screencats?07:26
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popeycoreyt: is there a problem with ubuntutips.org? looks like www. doesn't resolve which may be why there is no stylesheet07:27
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mdkecoreyt: yes, we'd like you to help out as part of the docteam. if you need any help with how to get involved, see the link in the topic07:59
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coreytbig sandwich09:02
coreytpopey I have not made a screencast yet.  There's some windows tools I used to use for videogames, for Linux I have a bunch of suggestions from publications and such.09:03
mdkecoreyt: you should look at the screencast team guide, there is a specific methodology used: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts09:04
coreytSomeone said the www in ubuntutips.org does not resolve?09:04
mdkethat's correct09:05
nixternalworks for me09:05
coreytWhat DNS server?09:05
nixternalmy lord the dcc attacks today are crazy09:06
coreytno for the one that did not work09:06
mdkeworks here now, didn't earlier09:07
mdkecoreyt: was there a specific reason you decided to front your own website rather than contributing directly to the community Ubuntu wiki? I'd like to know09:07
coreytI wonder if some dns servers have my old ip cached until someone accesses the website and then it refreshes out.09:07
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coreytNo specific reason, I like to build servers and play around with them.   It's in no way saying that I dont like the ubuntu documentation09:08
coreytThough anytime I have come across a problem if I google it, I usually find it on a blog.09:08
mdkethat's a shame09:09
coreytI'm a top 10 return for the search "Ubuntu Tips", none of the top 10 returns go to the documenatation I think09:10
coreytI could help fix that.09:10
mdkeby adding the word "tips"? :p09:10
coreytStrangely enough that did not work for me.09:11
coreytI used to be somewhere around 40something09:12
mdkeI mean, naturally "ubuntu tips" wouldn't drag up the documentation site, because the word "tips" doesn't appear09:12
coreytHow about the top 10 problems someone searches for a way to fix it.09:13
coreytNaturally that'd be a weird meta tag09:13
=== mdke boggles
mdke"ubuntu help" and "ubuntu documentation" do the trick09:14
coreytYep, what about Ubuntu Graphics, or Ubuntu screen resolution, ubuntu network?09:15
coreytlet me check something09:16
coreytWhat's ubuntuguide.org relation to anything other than a very long list in a wiki?09:17
mptPut synonyms for each problem *on the actual page that solves the problem*09:17
coreytI feel bad for any dialup users there :)09:17
mptPlease not a big list of keywords on the front page :-)09:18
LaserJockcoreyt: it's a family of guides done by various people. not related to the doc team at all, that I'm aware of09:18
coreytIt's a Wiki and google will crawl it, however keywords for each subject will help rankings.09:18
coreythere's a search that's working for you guys09:19
coreytUbuntu Nvidia https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia09:19
coreytbrings that page in a top 10 result09:19
coreytI need to find my google hacks book lol09:20
coreytlooks like I'll have to mirror apt to speed up screencasts09:21
LaserJockexcept it's going to the wrong wiki ;-)09:21
coreytSo what's the big difference between the wiki and help?09:23
mdkecoreyt: wiki.ubuntu.com is a wiki for Ubuntu contributors to manage teams and exchange ideas about development. help.ubuntu.com/community is a wiki which provides help for users09:24
popeycoreyt: i improve apt by downloading packages first09:25
popeyapt-get -d foo09:25
coreytI'm wondering if recording works inside a vmware image, gives a good controlled enviroment to build these.09:27
popeyI record using qemu09:27
coreytI've got the horsepower to drive it.09:27
popeythe recording is done by the host, recording the window that qemu runs in09:27
popeycould do the same with vmware09:27
popeycoreyt: have you seen the guide? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts ?09:28
coreytwe'll the vmware player image for edgy is pretty standard.09:28
coreytyeah I'm browsing it on and off09:28
popeyOne of my overriding goals was to create these screencasts using free tools.09:28
popeyothers of course use closed stuff like vmware and camtasia, I choose not to09:29
coreytI've used Qemu a little for a usb key distro for system recovery but that's all.09:29
coreytbeen awhile since I built that though09:30
popeyI feel that we should eat our own dogfood09:30
coreytOnly reason I suggested the vmware player ubuntu image is it's the most readily available thing out there for someone who has never done any VM stuff.09:30
popeyqemu can run a vmware image :)09:31
coreytwait, it can start up a vmware player image?09:31
coreytStill command line?09:31
popeyinstall qemu-launcher09:31
popeyit's a gui for qemu09:31
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popeyand there are others in development, some real nice onces09:32
coreytcool I have to check this out.09:32
popeythat url I threw you has a screenshot of qemu-launcher09:32
popeypersonally I use the command line, but I appreciate others like GUIs, I am not bigoted that way :)09:32
coreytwhat repo has qemu-launcher?09:33
coreytI'm not finding it.09:33
popeyuniverse in feisty09:34
coreytworks on edgy though?09:34
popeyshould do, but it looks like its only in feisty09:34
coreytI can do command line09:34
popeywell, if you need any help with qemu, give me a shout, I have used it quite a bit09:35
coreytI'll track down the source and see if it builds for Dapper/Edgy09:35
popeydo you have a VT enabled CPU?09:35
popeyqemu is packaged09:35
coreytAMD X209:35
popeydoes that do VT?09:35
popeyif so, go get kvm, it does xen-style virtualisation for qemu09:35
coreytpretty sure it does09:35
popeymakes qemu blindingly fast09:36
coreytah on AMD it's called SVM09:41
coreytso yeah I have VT capabilities09:41
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mdkempt: so what do you think, should we hammer out a decent spec for the help menu? Seems like there is a good case for it to become a button now that there are no other submenus in the "System" menu10:06
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mptmdke, there are no other submenus? How did that happen?10:16
mptIs that from gnome-control-center?10:16
mptBut sure, that would be great, and the spec should use the word "richer" at least twice10:16
mdkempt: yes, gnome-control-center rules them all10:18
mdkealso the quit dialogue doesn't have a menu10:18
mdkempt: can we just take https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsableHelpMenu and change the name?10:19
mdkeand add stuff10:19
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jribhi is anyone involved with the restructuring of RestrictedFormats?10:21
mdkejrib: I think the community just kinda takes care of it. Anything particular you have in mind?10:21
jribwell it has recently changed a lot, and I was going to fix a mistake and keep finding them10:21
mdkehave a look in the history10:22
mdkesee if you can find the culprit, then accost him/her10:22
mdke /it10:23
jribI think I see what is happening.  An effort is being made to break everything up into subpages, but links are being left broken and sometimes you see things like "see below" but it is no longer there.  I'll fix up what I see10:24
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jribThat page was a bit of a monstrosity though, I praise the person who took up the task to begin with :)10:26
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jribtonyyarusso: I just noticed how it has been reorganized10:27
tonyyarussoyeah, that's nice10:27
mdkejrib: thanks for helping10:29
=== tonyyarusso misread
tonyyarussoSorry, that got channel misdirected...10:32
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mdkempt: can you think of a better name for the spec?10:44
nixternalUbuntuHelpTheRightWay :)10:45
willvdlnixternal, I saw in LP one of those "help-me-to-distribute-CDs-I'm-a-new-user-and-love-ubuntu" product pages10:48
willvdlfolks I need to ask a really silly and probably inane question10:49
mptThere are no silly questions, only silly people10:49
nixternali do it all the time, so go for it :)10:49
mptthat's not how the saying goes10:49
nixternalmpt: i am both10:49
willvdlwhy are the release-notes maintained in the SVN repo?10:49
nixternalwillvdl: that's silly10:49
willvdlI warned you, but you wouldn't listen10:50
nixternalall documentation is maintained in the SVN repo :)10:50
willvdlseriously, where do they go once they're written?10:50
mdkeno it's not silly10:50
nixternaliirc release-notes will become a part of the ubiquity slideshow, but i am still not 100% positive on that since nobody has said anything to us10:50
mdkefor Ubuntu we don't maintain the release notes in the svn repo10:51
mdkethe developers maintain them on the wiki, and then they are put onto the website, and into update-manager10:51
mdkeand the -announce mailing list10:51
willvdlmdke, but there is a directory in trunk and project links in the doc-team wiki10:52
mdkewillvdl: there isn't a directory in trunk for Ubuntu that I can see10:53
mdkeas for the project page, it's a bit behind... like 12 months10:53
nixternalthere used to be for kubuntu, but i have recently removed thos10:53
willvdlgood point10:53
willvdlnixternal, can you remove the edubuntu one?10:53
nixternali sure can10:53
=== willvdl deleting stuff, it's easier than creating stuff and you get more credit...even if it is *%$@&%#
=== willvdl loves deleting rather
LaserJockhang on a sec10:54
nixternalya, those are actually recent10:54
willvdlhmmm, so they are10:55
LaserJockyou're going to get rid of the Edubuntu release notes?10:55
willvdlLaserJock, not exactly10:55
willvdljust trying to figure out where they should be maintained10:55
LaserJockdepends on *who* is maintaining them ;-)10:55
nixternalit looks as if it was Jerome maintaining htem in the past10:56
willvdlLaserJock, spoke to jerome earlier10:57
willvdlhe agrees that they make no sense being in SVN10:57
LaserJockwell, jerome did work on them, lately I think ogra's just be writting them10:57
willvdl...in the wiki10:57
LaserJockwell, to me it does make sense to ship release notes in the documentation10:57
LaserJockbut maybe not :-)10:58
willvdlwell, philosophically speaking, one would read the release-notes before downloading or even installing the software10:58
LaserJocksure, but they should also be available "on site"10:59
LaserJocknot that I read them ;-)11:00
willvdlthat's what about-*buntu is for?11:00
LaserJockI wouldn't think so11:01
willvdlLaserJock, one approach is to maintain/author on the wiki and then pop into svn before release11:01
mdkewillvdl: well, you can read the releasenotes after upgrading11:01
mdke(see "What's new in Ubuntu 7.04")11:01
LaserJockwillvdl: well, I have no objections to it not being in SVN11:01
LaserJockseems like noone else does11:02
willvdlmdke, does that not duplicate the purpose of the About doc?11:02
LaserJockAbout *buntu is about *buntu11:02
LaserJocknot the release11:02
mdkewillvdl: no :)11:02
willvdlif it does stay in svn and gets packaged, where would one find it on the system?11:03
LaserJockin the help system along with everything else I'd imagine11:03
willvdlmdke, they tend to include "new" features etc as well. I find them very similar to the about pages11:05
coreytWhat wiki do we use here?  Mediawiki??  Or homegrown?11:06
willvdlnixternal has a point though, if they are used in ubiquity then it makes sense11:07
willvdllive CD is perfect place for release notes I guess11:07
coreytIt would be nice that documentation on the system could check if it's updated on a website and show the updated documentation.11:08
coreytthinking to myself :)11:09
willvdlmoin - xml converter :)11:09
LaserJockcoreyt: we ship updates11:10
LaserJockif needed11:10
mdkempt: the about pages don't tend to include "new" features11:10
coreytSo the ? button documentation gets updated via a package?11:10
LaserJockcoreyt: yeah11:10
mdkempt: sorry, meant for willvdl11:10
LaserJockit gets there via a package11:10
mdkempt: this one is for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess#preview11:11
coreytI've never really went through it extensively11:11
mdkempt: note that I've copied your email wholly11:11
willvdlmdke, your right. I've got my eyes tied up between beta announcements, knot releases, release notes etc.11:12
coreyt* bangs head on desk * .  Took me forever to get mp3 support into SoundJuicer and it's right there in the help app.11:13
willvdlcan anyone remember where matt revell was putting the LP help pages he was writing?11:16
willvdlhe had some specific links on LP usage for ubuntu...11:19
mdkeI don't think he's written those yet.11:20
mdkejust the material on help.l.n11:20
mptcoreyt, it's our responsibility to get the help to a standard where you can trust that the things you actually want to do will be explained there11:20
dsasDoes the mac help menu get app specific help added to it too?11:20
mptcoreyt, until then, many people will scour the Web instead11:21
mdkewillvdl: yes, you see it there, right?11:21
willvdlyip. the links are hanging though, no parent11:21
LaserJockdsas, how do you mean?11:21
mptdsas, no. That's my Mac it's a screenshot of, and I have bazillions of apps installed11:21
dsaswhat's the point of a menu with one item?11:22
mdkewe should add a screenshot of the current help menu11:22
mdkedoes anyone know how to do screenshots of menus?11:22
mptdsas, well, Jef Raskin would have said "make it a button instead!", but it's better to be consistent with other menus11:22
coreytHow about a way to search for help in the help function that uses google to search for help on ubuntu's help sites rather than on blogs.11:23
coreytand a button to request help if they cannot find it.11:23
mptcoreyt, that's already implemented, except that it uses Seek rather than Google11:23
=== mdke points at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=yelp-search.jpg
mpttry it in Edgy11:23
dsasmpt: Seems weird to me. I should read more about usability.11:24
mdkempt: btw I've marked mdz as approver, you think it should be mark?11:24
mptmdke, that can be up to mdz to decide, I think11:25
=== mdke nods
coreytdont mind me I'm slow :)11:25
mdkefeel free to hack at the spec11:25
mdkeI've finished now11:25
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willvdlmpt, what are those "abc" bullet points that appear in the search results when using seek?11:25
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mptwillvdl, I think that was newz2000 experimenting with filling slots in the search results template11:26
mptit needs a lot of tidying up11:26
willvdlBurgundavia, hey, didn't see you there11:26
Burgundaviahey willvdl11:26
coreytmpt: so is there a way to pull the top seek's ?11:26
willvdlbeen on vacation? when you get back?11:26
mptcoreyt, I don't understand what you mean11:27
coreytokay if you hit seek-test and ask it for mythtv somewhere it records that someone asked for it.  So like on google where they produce those lists of how many times people asked for Jessica Simpson and whoever.11:28
coreyttop 10 searches :)11:29
mptoh, right11:30
mptyes, that's definitely part of the plan11:30
mptbut not implemented yet afaik11:30
mptnag newz2000 next time you see him :-)11:30
mpthe's another member of the Matthew Cabal11:30
coreytSomeone can do it with a small shell script, I have source somewhere that can pull the terms and list them by frequency.11:30
coreyt*searches for Bash for Dummies*11:31
mptI'm good at bashing dummies11:31
mdkempt: what do you think about petitioning to put a launchpad for help back on the panel, like the old days? it's a bit hidden in the system menu11:46
LaserJockwe already have a button don't we?11:47
mdkeit was removed back in breezy or so11:47
mdkethe reasoning was that the icon was a bit confusing11:48
LaserJockno, but I mean Corey and I got it back for Feisty at least11:48
mdkedid you? it's not there on my system11:48
LaserJockon a fresh install it should be11:49
LaserJockEdgy maybe too, but I can't remembner11:49
mdkelemme try making a new user now11:49
jendahey folks11:49
jendaI'm writing up guidelines for designing marketing material.11:49
jendaI expect them to be changed widely later on, but I'd like to hear the doc's suggestions.11:50
jendaI've covered trademark and branding issues: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite/Guidelines11:50
LaserJockI think it might have missed Edgy, but on Feisty it's there I'm pretty sure11:50
jendaI'm thinking what to next11:50
jendaOh come on, did i kill the channel? :)11:51
mdkeLaserJock: ooh yeah!! Dunno how that slipped past me. Nice one!!11:51
mptmdke, long-term, I think it is confusing to have a mixture of buttons and menus on the same panel11:52
=== mdke muses
mptmdke, so is the default.png you made not quite accurate?11:53
mdkempt: correct, I'll upload another one, if it isn't too late.11:53
mdkejenda: looks ok. I'd make it a bit snappier, shorter paragraphs, more bullet points11:53
jendamdke: will work on that, thanks.11:54
jendamdke: it'll be a lot longer, too.11:54
jendaI hope :)11:54
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mdkempt: reuploaded12:02
mdkediscovered some comedy nautilus behaviour in the process too12:02
mdkeyou can drag and drop a file from another user's home directory into your webhosting remote server, but you can't drag it to your desktop. Gotta love it12:03
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willvdlnight all12:12
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